Obviously it is also curious that you being non-muslim are challenging us muslims and our beliefs. I have almost heard every argument regarding Islam. Islam borrowed from Jews. Islam borrowed from Christians. Now the Kaaba is a Hindu Temple. I looked at your site and it is from Hindu website obviously now you're trying to prove the Kaaba is a Hindu Temple. First, the Kaaba housed prior to Muhammad's arrival, more that 360 idols and was the center of trade as you may now know.

Second majority of your comments are regarding Abraham and not the Kaaba so I find your argument quite flawed. All you have to show is a simple website. why don't you prove that the Kaaba is a Hindu Temple first before trying to prove Abraham never went to Mecca.

Funny you mentioned this because P.N. Oak also believes Islam and christianity are distortions of Vedic beliefs:

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushottam_Nagesh_Oak - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushottam_Nagesh_Oak

I don't think your Catholic "myths" are safe from Hinduism as well.....lol

As far as any disagreements concerning the Kaaba why not look at it here and its pre-islamic history:

Before Islam

Little is known of the pre-Islamic history of the Kaaba. Wensinck, writing in the Encyclopedia of Islam, identifies it with a place called Macoraba mentioned by the Roman geographer Ptolemy mention of Mecca. Ptolemy's text is believed to date from the second century AD., before the rise of Islam.[6]

Patricia Crone disagrees with most academic historians on most issues concerning the history of early Islam, including the history of the Kabaa. In Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, Crone writes that she believes that the identification of Macoraba with the kaaba is false, and that Macoraba was a town in southern Arabia, in what was then known as Arabia Felix.[7]

Many accounts, including Muslim accounts, and some accounts written by academic historians, stress the power and importance of the pre-Islamic Mecca. They depict it as a city grown rich on the proceeds of the spice trade. Crone believes that this is an exaggeration and that Mecca may only have been an outpost trading with nomads for leather, cloth, and camel butter. Crone argues that if Mecca had been a well-known center of trade, it would have been mentioned by later authors such as Procopius, Nonnosus, and the Syrian church chroniclers writing in Syriac. However, the town is absent from any geographies or histories written in the last three centuries before the rise of Islam.[8]

According to The Encyclopaedia Britannica, "before the rise of Islam it was revered as a sacred sanctuary and was a site of pilgrimage."[9] According to the German historian Eduard Glaser, the name "Kaaba" may have been related to the southern Arabian or Ethiopian word "mikrab", signifying a temple.[6] Again, Crone disputes this etymology.

 Delta, There should be some limit to the flight of mind. Next you will say that Abraham was a Hindu. Or Jesus was a Hindu.

 In the old testament, it is written that Ishmael had twelve sons. They were princes. Their names are also mentioned in the OT. There are cities in the Arabia by the names of the sons of Ishmael.

 Delta, can you please tell me where those children of Ishmael vanished??? Where they have disappeared?? Also remember that you claiming to be an RC, know that the seed of Abraham through Ishmael was also to multiply exceedingly. That means they are present in this world today and they are the Arabs who say that they are the descendents of Abaraham. They circumsize. That was the everlasting covenant made by Allah with Abraham well before the birth of Issac. Tell me why the Arabs (Muslims) circumsize if they are not the desendents of Abraham.

 I tell you that Jews may be the desendents of Abraham. But the christians are not. They are cut off from being the seed of Abraham. Do not go to any Pedia. Remain in the OT and NT and Quran please. Thanks.

Delta,

I'm not denying the fact that in Pre-Islam Arabia there was some sort of ruler and perhaps in that time prior to the coming of Muhammad, the land was ruled by an Indian King. I am not denying that perhaps there are inscriptions in the Kaa'ba which relate to this Indian King. However, in any history in any country you will have rulers that have came and went and have implanted their philosophy and religious thought into the cultures they ruled and after they are gone their imprint is still within that society. Regardless, whether this king ruled Arabian Pennisula or not does not necessitate that Islam as a religion is faulty.

I've read articles by hard core christians that try to refute even the name "Allah" mind you these critics are not fluent in Arabic nor do they speak any of the Semitic languages. Mainly most of these critics look at the letters of the Arabic alphabet and their historical associations and generate a theory simply stating how Allah relates to a goddess or some deity of the moon. Without a thought on the implications of the name Allah they say that Allah is simply a moon god (and in this case a Hindu god).

Regardless of all this B.S. in different cultures God has many names. Just because Arab Muslims and Christians alike call "God" Allah does not mean what they worship are two entirely different entities but in fact worship the same entity!

Did you know God in english derives from the German word Got which is a god of the pagan Norse culture? So regardless what you've present are historical evidenes of a culture that existed before Islam ame to Arabia but it has nothing to do with the religion of Islam nor proves that the Kaaba is not a temple dedicated to the God of this universe. Try again Delta.

Delta, I have no answer for your Hindu question because frankly its another trap to start an argument. I just told you that I'm not gonna deny any historical influences that was placed upon the Kaaba before Muhammad. You know what that means? YOU MAY BE RIGHT! Regardless whether this is true or not does not prove that Islam is wrong. If you wanna talk about religions I can easily talk about Catholicism (and refute its ridiculous philosophy). But honestly I don't care what you say anymore you didnt create the thread with the intent to discuss rather argue.

BTW your questioning regarding why we face the Kaaba is quite dumb and it seems that this is the result of your incomptence in theology.

BTW your questioning regarding why we face the Kaaba is quite dumb and it seems that this is the result of your incomptence in theology.

Delta wrote: wish another ? Face your prayers to Mecca was only because Mohammad tribe and all tribes around the desert used to pray to Mecca   The Quran is the only doctrine to require its followers to face/pray to a building.  Sura 2:144   How can the Muslims face the Kaaba, when the earth is round, except to face the outer space ? Didn�t Allah knew that the earth was a sphere (round) ?   If your are in the opposite side in earth, you are unable to face your prayers to Kaaba See ? The Qu'ran is full of that

Delta, you make NO sense here.

Btw, have you heard of a compass

If your are in the opposite side in earth, you are unable to face your prayers to Kaaba

as for this, well, you just turn around again then you face kaaba

As for the kaaba being hindu or whatever, everyone knows that it used be a pagan site for 360 gods. What is your point ???

Delta wrote: Angel wrote: Delta, you make NO sense here. Btw, have you heard of a compass LOL OK I'm not a mathematician so lets make a experience take a big orange, stick 2 pins in opposite sides, and see if one can see the other In a big scale, such as the earth, unless you have a curved and long neck you can't and the Earth is not totally round, as a circle, it is slightly oval what is worst

what is worst ?? no sense here

have you heard of navigation by the stars and sun  that is what people, especially nomads use to travel by  

 Delta is arguing for nothing. Ka'abah is a symbol of unity for the Muslims. Delta has no need to pray to any one. So he need not have to face any where. Muslims have to pray more than five times a day all over the world at certain times.

 The world is a globe (sphere). There is a place for Makkah. Every where on the earth (except for a solitary point exactly opposite the Makkah) the direction for the Ka'abah can found. There is no difficulty. Twice in a year, the Sun is directly overhead at Makkah. It passes over Makkah. At that time, the dirextion of the shadow of a vertical pole can give the true dirextion to Makkah.

Muslims have to pray in cities and villages in many countries. If there was no rule then how could the direction for prayer be managed?? In one village, one mosque would be facing eastwards, the other westwards. In one house one man will be praying facing North, the other one nearby will be facing south. That would become a joke and I am sure Delta will not be happy about that. He would have some other objection then.  ..........

 I do not believe that God is talking about the Christians in thatverse 2:145.

nor canst thou (Muslims) be a follower of their (Christian) Qiblah;�

 The Jews had a Qiblah. They built it but it was destroyed a few times. The christians never had any Qiblah. Theyhad disowned the love and line of Abraham and broken the everlasting covenant with God. So there is not to be any word Christian in that translation.

Of Jews can be mentioned. And Jews and christians are not the only people who have been given the book. There are Iranians and Indians and Chinese too. But the christians do not believe that. They think that God belongs to them only and God does not beling to any other nation nor has HE revealed himself to any other nation. Is that a good belief?? Seems very narrow minded attitude.

We Muslims give up up reason in matters of Faith.
Kabah could have been whatever anyone claims to what it had been 1400+ years ago, so what, Christians follow so many pagan derieved festivals, namely their main festival. So even if it was a 'hindu' temple too bad they can't have it back!

yeah Abraham and Ishmael didn't put foot in the Kaba they built it!
how could have they endured it, lets just say he was man of a strong will

Abraham was neither a jew, christian but a true monotheist, he believed and worshiped One God who created him.

One thing that I have found to be true is that Moslems and Islam values organization and structure. We have exact ways all people  pray, how we line up etc. It brings structure and organization. Hence it makes sense for people to face in towards the same place.  It brings unity to people.

And honestly most Moslems do not even "see" the Kaaba. It is about organization. As a child, I would go to Church and we'd look at (a child's words) "a dead guy on a cross" with bloody hands, and nails in his hands and feet and crown of thorns. I tell you it was morbid and depressing. When I pray as a moslem, yes I face the Kaaba, but I face no one in human form.

Also, this does not mean we  do not do our own prayers (Duas) that are given at any time. We do not face any direction.  

Whatever past Mecca had before Islam, really is not very important. People and ideas have been interchanged throughout history. Some Hindus  and others were there. So what?

As far as age of Abraham, as a Catholic, Delta, do you believe in the Virgin Birth? If that can happen, then an older man and a young child can go places and travel. Why not?

we of course will only know so much about "history" from so far back. And really what is the relavance of it? You base your "beliefs" on really, an imcomplete history of Jesus (PBUH) (How much do we really know?)

Islam is about believing in One God and worshiping One God. It is really simple to me. Cathlicism says I should beleive that Jesus- was a man, who was God, or is God, came to save me for my sins. But I never met him. I must show blind obedience to another person. In Islam, no person, or person-figure ever can or should come between you and God.

Peace

=======
As a child, I would go to Church and we'd look at (a child's words) "a dead guy on a cross" with bloody hands, and nails in his hands and feet and crown of thorns. I tell you it was morbid and depressing.
=========

====
As far as age of Abraham, as a Catholic, Delta, do you believe in the Virgin Birth? If that can happen, then an older man and a young child can go places and travel. Why not?
=====

Delta wrote: Israfil wrote: why don't you prove that the Kaaba is a Hindu Temple first before trying to prove Abraham never went to Mecca. Are related issues, because muslims trace the Kaaba history back to Abraham But Arabian Peninsula was part of Hindu empire under the King Vikramaditya See Here how He did ruled over Arabian Peninsula : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikramaditya The Zam-Zam water, your rituals, everything Know you can trace all that to Hindu Empire, and King Vikramaditya I'm not a agnostic, I'm not atheist, I'm Roman Catholic I'm just trying to show how irracional are some myths from Islam Believe in what you want I HAD FOUND RELIGION  THROUGH GOD ALMIGHTY NOT GOD ALMIGHTY THROUGH ANY RELIGION

Hmmmm..

And now some of the Roman Catholic Myths..according to some researchers and historians of the non traditional genre:

Did you know that the Bible was constructed in the 3rd council by the Nicene council headed by the pagan emperor Constantine?

Did you know that some of your saints were constructed from many ancient Roman Gods during the council. They merged beliefs in order to make it acceptable to the Romans to whom they intended to make  the new brand of Christianity the new state religion?

That Christmas, or an early version of it, was created at this time and place on Dec 25th, the Feast of the Saturnalia, or winter equinox. It was a pagan Roman Festival.

You see myths abound. Constantine had the earlier manuscripts prior to 3 C.E destroyed, the Quran was handed down by oral tradition, very important in Arabic society.

 Thanks Sign*Reader, very good exposition of this Delta (Traingular fellow, Trinitarian). Delta should know that he has no faith. His religion is out moded and that is why, in disgust he is trying to malign the good religion i.e. Islam. What Delta is trying to do is that he wants to prove that he and his religion is false/ bad. He is trying to prove that Islam also the same bad. That is not a good way.

 It would have been better to for him to show some good things of his religion.

Abraham a.s. visited Arabia many times. Not once only. He was a great travellor. God promised him all the land that he could see. God said that He would give him all that land in inheritance. He was surprised because he had no issue (children from a barren wife sarah). So what was the use of all that land.

So Abraham a.s. prayed to Allah to grant him some inheritor. Allah gave him Ishmael. Allah made everlastin covenant with Abraham that his seed should be circumcised. Hedid that.

Please all friends note here the wisdom of Abraham or the divine guidance given to him by Allah. He took his wife hagar (Hajirah, the Egyptian young lady) and son and took them away to a faraway place in the heart of Arabia. That was under a divine plan. There he left his wife a very young son and came back to Palestine (Kanaan).

Later he went there again to see his family. He was only 86+ years old. Nothing much. By the time, Ishamael was grown up and running about, They together built a house of worship (Ka'abah) that is the oldest house of worship in the world. And hey pryed to Allah to send to the people a prophet from amongst themselves who would help coorect the lives of the people and guide them to Allah.

In those days, Abraham saw the vision that he was sacrificing his son in the way of Allah. He prepared to do that and asked the opinion of his son Ishmael, how did he feel about it.... Ishmael replied in the affirmative.... Issac was not even born then.

(Continued..)

Continued....

 Abraham almost sacrificed his son Ishmael in the way of Allah. That was his dearest thing, a son, the only son, the first born son of old age who was born according to the news and promise of Allah. The name of Ishamel was also informed / suggested / selected by Allah.

 Abraham passed the great test of the sacrifice. Allah was much more pleased with him. So Allah gave him another son Issac. That was when Abraham was 99 years old. He was fit and healthy. Abraham lived a life of 175 years (See Gen. 25:7). So how could he not travel at the age of 90 years. Delta does not know anything at all.

After that sacrifice business, Abraham visited his son Ishamel's  house (in son's absentia) a few times.

Now I come to the wisdom of Abaraham. he had two sons from Hagar and sarah. He settled them far apart from each other. each one getting a good inheritance. There is no question of disinheriting Ishamel at all. Ishmael also had the land and the spiritual inheritance. It is sad that the children of Jacob deny that. The land of Kanaan was promised to the children of Jacob. The land of Arabia was for the children of Ishmael. That is where they are settled even today, all over Arabia even upto Yemen.

The important thing. The wilderness of Arabia, near Makkah, was all tribal. Nobody had any interest in that area. No body occupied it. That was different to Kanaan and Syria and Egypt. The Arabs remained free and roaming. The Kanaan area was occupied by Romans at the time of Jesus a.s. There was lot of trouble for Jesus (Isa) a.s.

That did not happen in the case of our prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. Because it was area not under any king. The struggle was there but  without a king on top of them. That helped the last prophet Muhammad to succeed by the Will of Allah. That was all the good work and prayers of Abraham a.s. Look where he settled his son Ishmael in the heart of Arabia. Thanks to Allah.

Abraham a.s. visited Arabia many times. Not once only. He was a great travellor. God promised him all the land that he could see. God said that He would give him all that land in inheritance. He was surprised because he had no issue (children from a barren wife sarah). So what was the use of all that land.

====================

 De;ta, You should have drawn longitude and latitude also in the map. Makkah nad Madinah are at longitude 040E. The empty quarter you are speaking about is very far away to the east near about Oman...

 You had originally rested on the theory that Abraham being an old man, how could he travel. I busted that by telling you that he was about 90 years old when he went Makkah (Place only, there was no Makkah there). He lived a life of 175 years. So do you see that you had the first mistake about the old age.

 Also do not forget that He was some where in Arabia when sarah died. So he travelled again to kanaan and went to her place to mourn her death. Please try to see some parts of history too along with the sacred books.  Please continue....

thanks Delta, becasue of you im more impressed with Islam!

two days ago i read the Quran and i read verses in Sourate 2, that disbelievers will allways try to debate with Mecca (also other things) but these verses where talking about disbelievers debate about Mecca. That really impressed me since i read ur posts then i read the Quran that said what disbelievers will debate with and what to said to them.

and for ur information, ur reasons agaisnt Mecca being a Hindu temple and all other things is very illogic.......(im sorry i dunno how to said more nicely) but all ur challenges about this subjet...u have no strong arguments, it like u said anything!

 Maryah has hit the nail on the head. A Troll. Saying the most impossible things. If King Vikrama was a great king. The text provided does not say that he occupied the Arab land. It just says that he sent teachers or emissaries to some place. That is all.

 We have the people from the east telling Maryam and Joseph that a great child is born in their house and they were wondering about it. And these people from the east told the news to the king (Herod??) too and he was looking for that child. So should we believe that the people from the east (Persia or India) had invaded Kanaan??

Delta has very poor logic. Meaningless posts. It is like I start a thread that Jesus was not the son but the Father of G*d. That is the thing like Taj Mahal is a Hindu temple. People won't be laughing if I say that delta is the Father mentioned in bible !!!

• started the thread with a website of a st**id website ref. http://www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm - http://www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm
• claimed that some unknown king Vikramaditya ruled over  Arabia based on wikipedia entry, not knowing that wikipedia  is not accepted in the academia as valid reference.
• says that Prophet Ibrahim couldn't get to Makkah from Ur or from Palestine cuz of his age and due to the empty quarter desert ( only  a foolish will ass u me that)
• then he wants to define Jewishness in ref. to Ibrahim(a)(LOL)
• again runs back to wiki for the orientation of the Patriarchs graves, which says nothing about that
  
• In the middle of discussion he says forget about the thread whether Kaaba was a Hindu Temple and opens a new track within the thread-- Quadrinity a new word to describe Muslims.
• Instead of conceding he is on anew tangent of attacks.
  
• has questions about resurrection, direction of face in prayer for the Muslims living on other side of the globe etc.
• The behavior described above indicates and I fully agree with sister Maryah that Delta is a Troll.
• he should be warned and if he doesn't follow the guidelines on discussion be banished.
• It seems he has learnt nothing from the foot in the mouth disease by his Padre in Rome
  

Delta:

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