Delta wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Do you have that story in the Christian or the Jewish Bible, Delta? |
That's a very old Christian Legend
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05496a.htm - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05496a.htm
The story is one of the many examples of the legend about a man who falls asleep and years after wakes up to find the world changed. It is told in Greek by http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10225a.htm - Symeon Metaphrastes in his "Lives of the Saints" for the month of July. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07018b.htm - Gregory of Tours did it into Latin. There is a http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14408a.htm - Syriac version by James of Sarug (d. 521), and from the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14408a.htm - Syriac the story was done into other Eastern languages. There is also an Anglo-Norman poem, "Li set dormanz", written by a certain Chardry, and it occurs again in Jacobus de Voragines's "Golden Legend" (Legenda aurea) and in an Old-Norse fragment. Of all these versions and re-editions it seems that the Greek form of the story, which is the basis of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10225a.htm - Symeon Metaphrastes , is the source.
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Actually, the story in the Quran has several issue in it, not a �single man� who falls asleep. The authors attempt to make such a sweeping generalization about a subject that will, no doubt, be found in writings of other cultures, given the fact that �sleep� has been regarded as something mystical, or even mysterious. Man was born with a �fitra�, a natral state, and it is through parents and culture that we can be deviated from our natural �fitra�. It is reasonable that many elements remain, such that man, even as a pagan, has regarded blood sacrifices of animals as something mystical, though it does not mean that Moses borrowed the notion of blood sacrifices from pagans, or the idea of a virgin birth as something mystical, does not mean that the virgin birth of Jesus is borrowed from pagan legends. This author attempts to generalize the idea of sleep in mystical literature by trying to erroneously equate the story in the Quran with his undefined idea of �a man who falls asleep�.
The Quran tells us a story that is not about a man who goes to sleep for a long time. The story covers essential topics such as young men who were under great persecution and went to great lengths to refrain from idolatry, and they were used as an example to a future generation.
The truth is, the Christians wish to dismiss it because doing so will, in their hope and as a part of their agenda, diminish the Quran. The problem is that they have no way to authenticate their inheritance, and they have no idea if the story took place or not, and the story does not share its main traits with the older accounts of a �single man who sleeps� that the author briefly mentions, but fails to show us how they are actually related.
The story is this: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04666a.htm - Decius (249-251) once came to Ephesus to enforce his http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm - laws against http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm - Christians -- a gruesome description of the horrors he made them suffer follows -- here he found seven noble young men, named Maximillian, Jamblichos, Martin, John, Dionysios, Exakostodianos, and Antoninos (so http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10225a.htm - Metaphrastes ; the names vary considerably; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07018b.htm - Gregory of Tours has Achillides, Diomedes, Diogenus, Probatus, Stephanus, Sambatus, and Quiriacus), who were http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm - Christians . The emperor tried them and then gave them a short http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm - time for consideration, till he came back again to Ephesus. They gave their http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12462a.htm - property to the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12327a.htm - poor , took a few http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11152a.htm - coins only with them and went into a cave on Mount Anchilos to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm - pray and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04660c.htm - prepare for death . http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04666a.htm - Decius came back after a journey and inquired after these seven men. They heard of his return and then, as they said their last http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm - prayer in the cave before giving themselves up, fell asleep. The emperor told his soldiers to find them, and when found asleep in the cave he ordered it to be closed up with huge stones and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13649a.htm - sealed ; thus they were http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03071a.htm - buried alive. But a http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm - Christian came and wrote on the outside the names of the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm - martyrs and their story. Years passed, the empire became http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm - Christian , and Theodosius [either http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14577d.htm - the Great (379-395) or the Younger (408-450), Koch, op.cit. infra, p.12], reigned. In his http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm - time some http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm - heretics denied the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm - resurrection of the body . While this controversy went on, a rich landowner named Adolios had the Sleepers' cave opened, to use it as a cattle-stall. Then they awake, thinking they have slept only one night, and send one of their number (Diomedes) to the city to buy food, that they may eat before they give themselves up. Diomedes comes into Ephesus and the usual story of cross-purposes follows. He is amazed to see crosses over churches, and the people cannot understand whence he got his money coined by http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04666a.htm - Decius . Of course at last it comes out that the last thing he http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm - knew was http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04666a.htm - Decius's reign; eventually the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm - bishop and the prefect go up to the cave with him, where they find the six others and the inscription. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14577d.htm - Theodosius is sent for, and the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm - saints tell him their story. Every one rejoices at this http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454c.htm - proof of the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm - resurrection of the body . The sleepers, having improved the occasion by a long discourse, then die praising http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm - God . The emperor wants to build golden http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14773b.htm - tombs for them, but they appear to him in a http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05154a.htm - dream and ask to be http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03071a.htm - buried in the earth in their cave. The cave is adorned with precious stones, a great church built over it, and every year the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06021b.htm - feast of the Seven Sleepers is kept.
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This author, nor any Christian today, has any way to authenticate any bit of their story as legend or fact or fiction, and with what truth may rest in their story, they have no way to discern between what is real and what is a fabrication.
Koch (op.cit.) has examined the growth of this story and the spread of the legend of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm - miraculously long sleep. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01713a.htm - Aristotle (Phys., IV, xi) refers to a similar tale about sleepers at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13472a.htm - Sardes ; there are many more examples from various countries (Koch, pp. 24-40, quotes German, British, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14042a.htm - Slav , Indian, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08399a.htm - Jewish , Chinese, and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01663a.htm - Arabian versions). http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06252b.htm - Frederick Barbarossa and Rip Van Winkle are well-known later examples.
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The statement
the growth of this story | is simply an assertion that has been accepted in the premise without proof. This is presumptuous, that if some element in one culture is found in another culture, then they must have borrowed from one another; this is conjecture unless it can be shown. Cultures unrelated to one another will have common ideas and practices and fixations on aspects of life such as blood, sacrifice, virgin births, death, dreams, sleeping, etc ,etc, etc.
The Ephesus story is told in the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08692a.htm - Koran (Sura xviii), and it has had a long history and further developments in http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm - Islam (Koch, 123-152),
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This is a blatant lie. The Quran has mentioned a story, and this story has not changed. There was not �further� developed after revelation.
as well as in http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10285c.htm - medieval http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03699b.htm - Christendom (ib., 153-183). http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02304b.htm - Baronius was the first to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05141a.htm - doubt it (Ann. Eccl. in the Acta SS., July, 386, 48); it was then discredited till modern study of folk-lore gave it an http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07462a.htm - honoured place again as the classical example of a widely spread myth.
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The problem is that, as I have stated a few times, these people have no way to �authenticate� any of their traditions. They really have no idea, and simply dismiss and accept based upon conjecture.
The Seven Sleepers have http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06021b.htm - feasts in the Byzantine Calendar on 4 August and 22 October; in the Roman http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09741a.htm - Martyrology they are commemorated as Sts. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10074c.htm - Maximianus , http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09566b.htm - Malchus , Martinianus, Dionysius, Joannes, Serapion, and Constantinus on 27 July.
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Let�s say this is true, and lets say that the story in the Quran is about the 7 young men in Ephesus. So if the idea of 7 sleepers is a known symbol, then, it would be �reasonable� to say that if God wanted to make a point that people in this region would really understand, then familiar symbolism would be a part of the miracle. Magic was used against Moses as a symbol, and God let Moses work miracles that used this symbolism, and this can be said of the time of Jesus also. All in all, this is a really juvenile and unsophisticated piece that attempts bad sophistry.
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