QheQ wrote: One of the first things I would like to know before becoming a do-or-die Muslim is what the true source of sharia'h is, Quran? Quran and Hadith? or Quran and Ijtihad?

Quran and the Sunnah are the primary texts used as the source of the Shariah.

As per my understanding,�from the Islamic perspectives, the ideal of the shari�ah is derived from the key sources of knowledge---the Quran and the Sunnah and from secondary sources such as Ijtihad (personal opinion) and Ijma, (unanimous agreement by Muslim Scholars).

The Quran and the Sunnah provides the core principles and the framework from which man has also been encouraged to use his reasoning. In this respect Muslims are encouraged to exercise rational thought through Ijtihad, ijma and shura (consultation).

Since reasoning and experience are two universal sources of knowledge, they are classified as natural law.  It is this exercise of rational thought borne from the foundation provided by the Quran and the Sunnah that has and will continue to generate the shari�ah dynamism for Muslim community.

QheQ wrote: Kindly note that I am not a QURAN ONLY sectarian. Yet, I need good answers about Islam. If I get them, I hope to become a devout Muslim.

Since you claim Pakistan as your place of residence, I find it at least "puzzeling" that you have not been able to find your answers.

This, I think, is the main problem with the authenticity of Islam. In Bukhari, (Zuhd), a Hadith is quoted, saying that the Prophet "forbad" his Sahabah to write anything from him except Quran. I know there is a latter part of the Hadith inferring that the truth from the prophet was allowed to be written. But in Bukhari, Kitabul Wasiyyah, Ayesha narrates that there is no Wasiyyah from the prophet EXCEPT QURAN.

I am only aware of one hadith that is sound and makes reference to "not writing" hadith.

First lets us take the "responsible" context and derive a plausable interpretation that follows all of the rules of "the charity principle" which is a principle in rhetoric which states in basic terms that we are to render or interpret a writing assuming the most reasonable "interpretation (not to force a rendering that assumes something absurd)".

a) There are hadiths that permit the writing of hadith

b) Companions and their followers and their followers wrote and transmitted hadith without incident and point of serious contention

We have one authenticated narrative that speaks of a prohibition of writing hadith. 

Given a) and b), and the wording of the hadith, whether we invoke Occam's Razor (entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity) and the Charity principle (rational accomidation principle), we arrive at two rational conclusions:

1) A prohibition to write on the same page as the quran is written on

or,

2) It is a prohibition to write hadith but later abrrogated by the various hadiths that permit the writing and copying of hadith.

But the hadith cannot be used to make a conclusive argument that the hadith are invalid.

If this doesn't make things clear, let's see what Quran says: Translation: "Indeed this (Quran?) is the Saying of the Rasool e Kareem"

You will have to further argue or explain your use of this as an evidence. If the verese was as clear as you think it might be to prove your unexplained conclusion, then we would not be having this discussion. (everyone would see it)

And Quran describes itself in 12:111 as "Detailed, to be thought into, not a self-made Hadith"

This does not invalidate the hadith of the prophet (saw). In other words, it does not offer anything in the verse which allows you to extend its meaning to conclude there is a problem with the Hadith.

In the presence of these references, how can a Muslim claim Hadith to be a source of Islam. (Note, Hadith was not revealed with Quran. It was rather reported to have been collected by Muhadditheen, over 200 years after the prophet passed away!)

I find no solid rational reason based upon what you have provided that would argue that I am wrong in my worship. Rather, it would appear that you have buried many unargued assumptions into them which simply does not allow you or me or anyone to deduce that Islam, as practiced by Muslims for the last 1200 years, have been wrong.

You final statement is simply fallacious, we have written narratives (extant) that date from a student of a companion. The collection was of narrative that had already been in place, so collecting something does not make them "untrue".

My dear QheQ. The Quran can not have grammatical mistakes because Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran. So you derive the grammer from the Quran and then from the grammer you derived from the Quran you say there are grammatical mistakes in the Quran based on the Quran, thats impossible. These are ies spread by people who want to make Muslims who are not Arab doubt the Quran especially since many of them dont know that Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran.

La raiib means no doubt. The prophet said dont write down what I say because he was afraid it would get mixed with the Quran and the Quran and his sayings would be one and people wouldnt know the difference. Nottice he forbade his sahaba, his sayings wrent written by the sahaba but later on.

The sources of sharia are the Quran, the sunnah (hadiths) and ijtihad.

QheQ wrote: I hope to become a devout Muslim. ....Why do Muslims, in response to questionning of the grammatical errors in Quran say: "Its eloquence is so High that we cannot reach it?"..... Also, what does it exactly mean tha Quran is Laa Raib?

Sincerely this is my answers....
We need to realize humility,�we are mere human beings who are accorded limited understanding of the Divine. �All Knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you O men� (Quran 17:85) and therefore we should not insist to completely know the complete interpretation in revelation and tradition. �We believe in the Book (Quran); the whole of it is from our Lord� (Quran 3:7)

La raib means 'no doubt (therein)'. You will find the phrase in the Holy Quran in Surah Al-Baqarah (Chapter of The Cow) in the second verse: [2.2] This Book (Quran), there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

Bro QheQ,

r u qadiyani or ismaili shia or frm lahori group?

                                     Salam(peace)

QheQ wrote: Without referring to the writers of the answers, I�ll try to refute all the points you guys made as follows (Please find your responses in bold and my refutations in normal text. Will try to follow the ethics next time. Sorry for the inconvenience):                           S in ce   you claim Pakistan as your place of residence, I find it                           a t& nbsp;  least "puzzeling" that you have not been able to find your                           a ns we rs. This is more a point of pondering than puzzling.

And you are quibbling. AT least I can see that if you went out of yoru way to make such a rediculous point, that you sincereity to ask a question will play out to be even mor rediculous!

VERB:
puz�zled , puz�zling , puz�zles
VERB:
tr.

1.       To baffle or confuse mentally by presenting or being a difficult problem or matter.

2.       To clarify or solve (something confusing) by reasoning or study: He puzzled out the significance of the statement.

VERB:
intr.

1.       To be perplexed.

2.       To ponder over a problem in an effort to solve or understand it.

NOUN:

1.       Something, such as a game, toy, or problem, that requires ingenuity and often persistence in solving or assembling.

2.       Something that baffles or confuses.

3.       The condition of being perplexed; bewilderment.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/puzzle - http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/puzzle

As I said, it is "puzzling�. Call it what you like and play semantics until the cows come home, its your own time to waste.

I &n bsp;  am only aware of one hadith that is sound and makes                           r ef er ence to "not writing" hadith.                           F ir st   lets us take the "responsible" context and derive a                           p la us able interpretation that follows all of the rules of "the                           c ha ri ty principle" which is a principle in rhetoric which                           s ta te s in basic terms that we are to render or interpret a                           w ri ti ng assuming the most reasonable "interpretation (not to                           f or ce   a rendering that assumes something absurd)".                           a )& nbsp;  There are hadiths that permit the writing of hadith That a source in question validates itself, is it an acceptable premise?

That you would attempt to use a source as a bases for your premise that you indeed reject implies your rhetorical obfuscation. In other words, you used a hadith to try and make your claim, but now you want to reject it. This is typical of the convoluted diatribe permeates the rhetoric ignorant. If your replies go on in this manner, then I will stop and shut this thread down, as your original reasoning for being here is a lie. Let�s see.

b )& nbsp;  Companions and their followers and their followers wrote                           a nd    transmitted hadith without incident and point of serious                           c on te ntion So we are to rely on companions and their followers and their followers and not on what the book claiming to be from God says? What, then, is the problem with the Bible which is comes through a similar traditional process?

No, we are proving your original argument as �fallacious�. Your attempted deflection is a �strawman�. Please pay attention to what we are talking about.

W e& nbsp;  have one authenticated narrative that speaks of a                           p ro hi bition of writing hadith.                           D on �t   write what I say. Whoever has written anything I have                           s ai d   other than the Qur�an must erase it. But relate from me:                           t he re   is no harm in that. And whoever deliberately lies in                           o rd er   to falsely attribute something to me, then let him prepare his                           s ea t   in the Fire." (Muslim) The last part of the Hadith opens up the possibility that false Hadith MAY be fabricated.

You ignored point a and b from my original reply. Please read it.

a) There are hadiths that permit the writing of hadith

b) Companions and their followers and their followers wrote and transmitted hadith without incident and point of serious contention

With a and b, your conclusion is not only implausible, but does not hold up to any reasonable conclusion based upon the evidence (you, like the rest of your ilk, are obfuscating this issue and arguing from pure conjecture).

So the last part does not open the idea that hadith may be falsified. A baseless assertion. Furthermore, why are you even discussing the hadith since you tried to convolute the thread with, �That a source in question validates itself, is it an acceptable premise?� when I even brought the hadith up. Your reasoning is fallacious, and you need to make up your mind how you want to try and argue your case.

This infers that even among the followers of the prophet, there could have been some who could fabricate the Hadith. Or else, who was the prophet addressing to?

The hadith does not even mention the word �fabricate�. You have just asserted something that is not found even remotely in the narrative (which you rejected to begin with), and with simple �hand waving�, you are now invoking your assertion as if it is fact.

There is no �inference� in the narrative. There is only the irrational assertion you are trying to put off as fact.

To who the prophet (saw) was addressing this to is not in question, and is irrelevant, but your contorted conclusion is.

The people to come who couldn�t have narrated anything from the prophet? Do you see any rationale in it?

That made absolutely no sense what so ever. It appears that it is a �complex question� (a fallacy) that is dressed in really bad grammar. Please clean it up.

G iv en   a) and b), and the wording of the hadith, whether we                           i nv ok e Occam's Razor (entities should not be multiplied beyond                           n ec es sity) and the Charity principle (rational accomidation                           p ri nc iple), we arrive at two rational conclusions:                           1 )& nbsp;  A prohibition to write on the same page as the quran is                           w ri tt en on                           o r,                               2) It is a prohibition to write hadith but later abrrogated by                           t he    various hadiths that permit the writing and copying of                           h ad it h.                            But the hadith cannot be used to make a conclusive argument                           t ha t   the hadith are invalid. This only infers that a Hadith can ALSO not be used to validate a Hadith.

Please halt your use of logic; you are abusing the discipline of logic as you are the sciences of Islam. First learn something before you attempt to use it. You have just invented some new �inference� out of pure �hand waving�. An argument does not work like that. You cannot just make up what you like and fill it in where you are having problems. Prove it!

The hadith infers no such thing. I gave you the context (which you dismissed in such a cursory and irrational way that I suspect some kind of juvenility on your part) and then provided you with the only authenticated narrative (which you introduced as your evidence but disliked when I used the same type of evidence), and then based upon the context (which you have not argued against) I provided two sound conclusions. You have managed to distort the thread with meaningless assertions and irrelevant speculation. So far, you have been a waste of time.

Translation: "Indeed this (Quran?) is the Saying                                                of the Rasool e Kareem"                                                            You will have to further argue or explain your use of this as                           a n& nbsp;  evidence. If the verese was as clear as you think it might                           b e& nbsp;  to prove your unexplained conclusion, then we would not be                           h av in g this discussion. (everyone would see it) Interestingly, a Muslim needs further argument about a Laa Raib Quran while quite authoritatively confronts an AYAH using some sayings about which no one can surely say whether they are from the prophet. And when a Hadith goes in clear contradiction with the Quran, they prefer the Hadith. Whereas the Quran says: �But they love the things that can be attained quickly�.

No, I need you to prove your use of the verse. And like the deviated, you refuse to argue your use of the Quran. You have �buried� some interpretation in the verse based solely on your deviant opinions, which stands in great contrast to actually making an argument, and then using a verse from the Quran as evidence with a clear presentation of its interpretation. You plaster verses up abusing the Quran and then conclude, out of no where with simply �hand waving�, that it proves your deviant ideas.

The argument is not about who authored the Quran, and your attempt to befuddle this thread even more with such a juvenile point speaks volumes about you. The verse does not state that the Prophet is the author. And this does not prove that there is no Sunnah.

And Quran describes itself in 12:111 as                                               "Detailed, to be thought into, not a self-made                                               Hadith"                           T hi s   does not invalidate the hadith of the prophet (saw). In                           o th er   words, it does not offer anything in the verse which                           a ll ow s you to extend its meaning to conclude there is a                           p ro bl em with the Hadith. If Quran is the word of the prophet, why use a different source? Let this be the question.

Complex question (fallacy), since no one has argued that the Prophet (saw) is the author.

I &n bsp;  find no solid rational reason based upon what you have                           p ro vi ded that would argue that I am wrong in my worship.                           R at he r, it would appear that you have buried many unargued                           a ss um ptions into them which simply does not allow you or me or                           a n   yone to deduce that Islam, as practiced by Muslims for the                           l as t   1200 years, have been wrong. And what is it that invalidates what Christians have been following for 2000 years?

Numerous things, but an irrelevant question. Please go to interfaith dialogue and ask the Christians.

Y ou    final statement is simply fallacious, we have written                           n ar ra tives (extant) that date from a student of a companion.                           T he    collection was of narrative that had already been in                           p la ce , so collecting something does not make them "untrue". Agreed. Neither does it make something �True�.

Your statement was wrong, period. Collecting what was already in existence does not invalidate the collection. I did not argue contrary.

" Lo !   It may well be that my hadith reaches a man who is                           r ec li ning on his luxurious bed, and he replies, �We have                           b e   tween us the Book of Allah: we permit whatever it permits                           a n d   we forbid whatever it forbids,� but in truth, whatever the                           M es se nger of Allah forbids is like what Allah has forbidden."                           ( Ti rm idhi, Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, Darimi) For a long time I kept referring to the same tradition as a reason to reject alleged Muslim groups like Ahle Quran and Parvezis. But it sounds fallacious to quote a Hadith to validate a Hadith.

LOL Is that what they call themselves now, Ahl Quran! I guess they are now so desperate they want a new name to give themselves �legitimacy� so someone will take them serious.

1)      I did not use the narrative to validate hadith. I did not argue one way or the other about the narrative. Your rejection is a knee jerk reaction to something that did not exist.

2)      The narrative was for �information value� only, for those who do believe in them.

3)      The reasoning to accept it is much stronger than any grounds you have thus provided to reject them.

Secondly, anti Islamists of the near-prophet age must be trying to spread invalid traditions so that quick fix seekers would get away from the Quran (Islamic history does report such an era when fabrication was common.).

Speculation, imagination, and simply ignorance.

One of the first rumors they would have logically spread must have been something like what you have quoted here so that Muslims stopped trying to understand the Quran and grab �what can be quickly accessed�.

More speculation, conjecture, etc, etc. I know what you believe, and that is not in question.

M y& nbsp;  dear QheQ. The Quran can not have grammatical mistakes                           b e   cause Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran. So you                           d er iv e the grammer from the Quran and then from the grammer                           y ou    derived from the Quran you say there are grammatical                           m is ta kes in the Quran based on the Quran, thats impossible.                           T he   se are ies spread by people who want to make Muslims who                           a re    not Arab doubt the Quran especially since many of them                           d on t   know that Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran. A logical fallacy. If I make a table which has defects and just to validate my own table, I scribe rules that validate these defects, will my rules be valid? Will this table serve as a valid table?

This is a logical fallacy. The Quran is not a table. No one made rules to validate the Quran, since we believe it is the source of what we see as Standard Modern Arabic. The Arabic language was not a heavily �written� language at the time of the Quran. The Quran �defined� Arabic.

If the Arabic grammar is derived from Quran, why does an Arabic grammar text not have rules that can validate the Quranic language? If you add more to grammar to validate Quranic language, you know you are committing false justification.                           L a& nbsp;  raiib means no doubt.

Because the Arabic language in a modern text is called (Standard Modern Arabic), not its parent, �Quranic Classical Arabic�.

We may pick up this issue later.       The prophet said dont write down what                           I &n bsp;  say because he was afraid it would get mixed with the Quran                           a n d   the Quran and his sayings would be one and people wouldnt                           k no w   the difference. Can you prove this from the Hadith or am I obliged to take your words for granted?

This is more of your games, since you just rejected my use of a hadith, after you used them, and you simply rejected it (my argument in my reply) to obfuscate the argument which as already been given to you that shows that the Prophet (saw) did not want people to mix up the hadith on the same page as the Quran. Instead of distorting the threads, try reading them.

Nottice he forbade his sahaba, his sayings wrent written by the sahaba but                                     later on. This further complicates the issue.                           T he    sources of sharia are the Quran, the sunnah (hadiths) and                           i jt ih ad. Self-driven conclusion.                                                           QheQ wrote: I hope to become a devout Muslim. ....Why do                           M us li ms, in response to questionning of the grammatical errors                           i n& nbsp;  Quran say: "Its eloquence is so High that we cannot reach                           i t? ". .... Also, what does it exactly mean tha Quran is Laa                           R ai b?                              S in ce rely this is my answers....                           W e& nbsp;  need to realize humility,�we are mere human beings who are                           a cc or ded limited understanding of the Divine. �All Knowledge                           i t& nbsp;  is only a little that is communicated to you O men� (Quran                           1 7: 85 ) and therefore we should not insist to completely know                           t he    complete interpretation in revelation and tradition. �We                           b e   lieve in the Book (Quran); the whole of it is from our Lord�                           ( Qu ra n 3:7) This all is valid once you presume that the book IS from God. At another instant the Quran quotes: Context: Who is more ZAALIM than the one who says something and says �This is from God�. When you say the Quran is from God, what valid reasons do you have to validate your statement? Why don�t you show the same humility for Bible, Vedas and Upanishads? Why don�t you say this Quran MAY BE from God, which will be more true.                           L a& nbsp;  raib means 'no doubt (therein)'. You will find the phrase                           i n& nbsp;  the Holy Quran in Surah Al-Baqarah (Chapter of The Cow) in                           t he    second verse: [2.2] This Book (Quran), there is no doubt                           i n& nbsp;  it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).                           T he    Sharia'h has a priority system which goes as follows:                           d ep en ding upon the issues of the day: So if Sharia�h is dependent, why do Muslims impose that strictly? Should I conclude that the Sharia�h CAN CHANGE?                           1 .& nbsp;  Quraan and it's Commentaries explaining the immediate                           r ea so ns for the revelations and figures of speech, as                           u nd er standin g would vary from person to person. so the                           P ro ph et(s)ma de additional comments.                           T he   n the test for the true believers who will look for the                           m an if est verses vs meaning in allegorical.                           2 .& nbsp;  Sunnah: if the subject is not mentioned in Quraan lookup in                           S un na h that how the Prophet managed the issues not mentioned                           i n& nbsp;  Quran, you don't need to run 200 years later for Bukhari                           f or    that. If you read the history of the Islamic schools of                           l aw    by the second generation (Tabiun) to handle issues                           b ri dg ing the Ummayad and Abaside dynasties, the schools of                           I    mams Jafer, Hanifah, Malik, Shafie and Ahmad (all-r)you will                           f in d   the quality control kept on the hadith transmission by                           t he re   prodigious scholarship with great integrity. The Imam                           H an if ah accepted prison rather than become the accomplice                           c hi ef    Qazi for the unjust ruler.                           3 .& nbsp;  Ijmaa (the consensus) the established schools of                           a fo re mention ed Islamic Jurisprudence had prerogative to find                           a n    answer to the new problems faced by the community.                           " Wh os oever contends with the Aposle after guidance been                           p la in ly conveyed to him, and follows the path other than that                           o f& nbsp;  the belivers, we shall leave him in the path he has chosen                           a n d   land him in hell. What an evil refige! (4:115)                           4 .A l   Qiyas(Anology) A jurist to apply a solution to a new case                           w hi ch   has been given in the previous three sources cuz of some                           a pp ar ent similarity between the the two. Example if booze is                           f or   bidden cuz it's intoxicating, deleterious and bad health                           e ff ec ts; all such drugs like cocaine and heroin ingested for                           s uc h   effects will be prohibited.                                You missed out one: �Fiqh�. I don�t know why. But weren�t the above principles made by human figures? Can you prove that these principles have been authenticated by God? Beside this, there is a sect among Muslims who says �Quran only� another says �Quran and Hadith only� another says �Quran Hadith and Ijma� another says �Quran and Ijtihad� another says �Quran, Hadith, Fiqh and Ijma�� you can see this fact right in this forum and you still claim that Islam is one! I am not criticizing Islam. Just asking why Muslims reject other faith while they are themselves not sure what the right source of their religion is.                                  QheQ wrote:                                           This   is where Quran says that it is the                                               "Qaul-e-Rasool" (69:40)                                               Also, what does it exactly mean tha Quran is Laa                                           Raib?                                                   Why do Muslims, in response to questionning of                                           the   grammatical errors in Quran say: "Its                                               eloquence is so High that we cannot reach it?"                                               Most sincerely, do you think it is the right                                           an swer?                           D id    you pay attention to your own spellings even when the                           s pe ll   check is marking your bad spellings? and you have a                           g al l   picking the errors in Arabic Quraan when there was no                           s uc h   thing as grammar in those days or any where for that                           m at te r I apologize that I made errors. It is human to make errors. I�ll try to correct them in the future. Will you please adopt the same gesture as I have done? To err is human, not Godly.                           T he   re have been countless Arabic scholars in the western world                           s in ce   the Prophet's time but none have come up with                           g ra mm atical error criticism. You sound negligent. Why would a Muslim Arabic Scholar attempt to pick errors? Obviously, a non Muslim or a righteous one will try to see if what he is following is good. There have been many sites and books indicating those errors. And the one going sure about those errors and highlighting them would of course be called non-Muslim by others.                           S o& nbsp;  I suppose, you should have a Phd at least in the Arabic                           l an gu age in order to qualify you; which would let you do the                           c ri ti que on Quraanic language Do you infer there was a PhD degree or a university offering such a degree for non-Muslims in the prophet�s era? Or are you saying that Quran is not in simple Arabic? Or are you saying that Quran�s claim of being �easy to understand� is wrong? Why have the existing PhD�s been unable to answer these error based allegations beyond saying �the Quran is the source of Arabic Grammar�? Still, a good suggestion. But I�m afraid it�s going to add to Saudi revenues through language learning and tourism above everything else.                           A re    you some where close to the level of Allama Mashriqi being                           a &n bsp;  Pakistani!!                           I    f that is the case why your post indicates such lack of                           s ch ol astic finesse? Hope I answered this question above.                           A s& nbsp;  we say here there are no dumb questions but there are looks                           w hi ch   have come through Pardon? CONCLUSION: 1.     If Quran is the word of the prophet, why use a different source? Let this be the question. 2.     Why Humiliate other religions in the name of humility? 3.     Why try to justify something on human grounds that is claimed to be from God?

QheQ, as a Muslim...let me share with you that the religion of Islam has its permanent (thabat) and changeable (murunah) principles.

In aqidah, it is fixed, whereas in Shari'ah, there are things which is fixed as well as flexible. Hence, it is merely yours...... suspicion, prejudice, confusion or ignorance to view Islam in such a negative perception.

The Quran is above all a guide to those who are prepared to keep their naturally pure state intact. Taqwa has been described as the single most important quality of a person mentioned in the Quran. Those who possess it live the natural way, the Quranic way.

The word Sunnah means method, example or path. It refers to what our beloved Prophet (pbuh) said, did and agreed to. You need to study the Sunnah, to see how beautiful an example our beloved Prophet (pbuh) set in all the full and varied aspects of his life. As you follow the course of his life, you cannot fail to see his complete trust and dependence on God, his truthfulness and sincerity, his constant devotion and struggle to make the word of God supreme, his strength and wisdom, his compassion and concern for the human condition.

The Prophet�s Sunnah, emphasizes the natural needs and dispositions of every human being. The Quran makes this clear, Surah  7. al-A`raf: The Elevated Places, (verse 157):

He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.

We need to know the Sunnah to learn how to perform the major duties like Salaat, Fasting and Hajj. To such acts of worship, there can be no addition or subtraction from the Sunnah. Moreover, without the Prophet�s detailed instructions and example, we would not be able to follow the Quran in all respects.

The Quran tells us that Muslims are those who use consultation to manage their affairs. The Sunnah shows us how this was and can be done. We need to know from the Sunnah not only what the Prophet did, but why he did it and how he did it.

You may form you own judgment on an issue only if there is no relevant text in the Quran and the Sunnah and only if your judgment does not go against the Quran and the Sunnah. When these conditions are met, you are expected to use you own judgment and initiative.

QheQ wrote: Ok, let me admit and try to be in a more learning stance. Just please clarify why Hadith should be believed as authentic in the presence of the following Quranic assertions: 1. Indeed this is the saying of the prophet

This is vague. What are you trying to prove exactly? Please provide an argument to support your conclusion which deal with this vague statement you are putting forth.

2. (45:4-6): Then which 'hadith' after Allah and His verses do they believe?

What about it? You want me to provide you with something but you have not provided even a basic argument as to what problem you have with this verse or even what you are trying to conclude.

3. (47:24): Then do they not ponder over the Quran... Waiting for the answer. Regards

I am waiting for your question.

QheQ wrote: I Wrote: Ok, let me admit and try to be in a more learning stance. Just please clarify why Hadith should be believed as authentic in the presence of the following Quranic assertions: 1. Indeed this is the saying of the prophet

I think you quoted the above coloured statement incorrectly. Down here you repeated again with emphasis.

wrote: My point is simply that according to Quran, Quran itself is the word of Prophet Muhammad, hence the source of sunnah in the sense you described is Quran. There is only one source of Sunnah, that is Quran.

I think the coloured word is Rosul  instead of Prophet. Please correct me if I am wrong since I don't know what is the source you are refering, sound like coming from chapter 67. Plus I am very certain there is no Muhammad mentioned in it.

QheQ wrote: This is where Quran says that it is the "Qaul-e-Rasool" (69:40) My comments in blue fonts: If you wish to understand it correctly, read from V38-52 and you will understand easily. You seem to be an Urdu speaking person and that is why you have used Qaul-e-Rasool, which means, The Saying of the Rasool (Prophet), which would fall under the subject of Hadith and it's collections. However, in the verses 40-52, the message is: "This is the word of a Rasool, not the word of a poet. how little do you believe, and not the word of a soothsayer, how little do you reflect? It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds." Qur'aan, then goes to add v44-52, saying "If he had said any words of his own, We would have grabbed him and cut off his life-vein and none of you could have saved him. This is a reminder to all who fear the Lord and We know those of you who lie and this will make you regret. This is the absolute truth. So, glorify your Lord." Explanatory meanings: "This is" refers to the Qur'aan which is the inspired/revealed word of God to Muhammad and Muhammad was reciting that to people. There were poets aplenty, in almost every corner and street of the Meccan valley, who were reciting poetry in praise of the gods and the powerful men of Mecca. When Muhammad came with blazing poetry and the prose of Qur'aan, the pagans and their poets were shocked. Common man took Muhammad as a poet or a soothsayer. The verses were revealed to let people know that the dazzling poetry and prose were not his own words and they were the words from God sent to Muhammad as Qur'aan. In other words, the key message was: This is the Rasool of God talking about the revelations of God. It is not saying that Qur'an is the saying of Muhammad of his own. Also, what does it exactly mean tha Quran is Laa Raib? Why do Muslims, in response to questionning of the grammatical errors in Quran say: "Its eloquence is so High that we cannot reach it?" Most sincerely, do you think it is the right answer? No, it is not the right answer. There are people, who do not know a word of English, French or Spanish and yet they can understand Qur'aan perfectly well. It is a different matter when it comes to translation. Some languages just do not have the equivalent words available. An example is Ghairat (In Urdu) which cannot be found at all in English. Do you see the difference. Just to re-do the translation of above was a "nightmare" (in the good sense) for me.  We are supposed to study, reflect and understand it.

Regarding Laa Raib or Laa Raiba, it simply means No Doubt. An Arab scholar or a good scholar of Qur'aan will not read it as "No doubt".

Let me show you by way of examples:

First, the verse as it is: Zaa-li-kal-kitaabo, laa raib." Let us translate now and see how many ways can we do it.

1. This is the Book, there is no doubt in it.

2. This Book has no doubt in it.

3. No doubt, this is the Book.

4. Without any doubt, this is the Book.

5. Of course this is the Book!

What is the correct meaning of this verse?

There is no doubt that this is the Book from Allah,

or simply

Of course this is the Book (from Allah)

BMZ

  Yes, very correct, BMZSP, the meaning is as suggested with a slight change from myself.

'(This is) That book, in which there is no doubt."

But the last part (Fee he) sometimes can be connected to the remaining (or the following words too).

(It is ) That book in which there is no doubt. It is a guidance for the God fearing people.

(It is) That book, no doubt. There is guidance for the God fearing people.

Forgive me if there is any mistake. The meaning of Dhalika is "That". It points to a distant or higher level object, compared to hadha (This).

minuteman wrote:   Yes, very correct, BMZSP, the meaning is as suggested with a slight change from myself. '(This is) That book, in which there is no doubt." But the last part (Fee he) sometimes can be connected to the remaining (or the following words too). (It is ) That book in which there is no doubt. It is a guidance for the God fearing people. (It is) That book, no doubt. There is guidance for the God fearing people. Forgive me if there is any mistake. The meaning of Dhalika is "That". It points to a distant or higher level object, compared to hadha (This).

You are right, minuteman. I had the poster's thoughts in my mind, so I did not go into finer details.

Thanks indeed. Salaams

BMZ 

QheQ wrote �you will find the most sincere answer from within yourself, I hope.� 

QheQ�..Sincerely, I hope, God willing that this modest effort will in some measure prove useful and I seek His forgiveness for any short comings!��.I am keeping myself in the learning mode too just like you I do not want to be ZAALIM!

More importantly we believe, as all Muslims should believe, that the Quran is the word of Allah containing guidance on all aspects of life. The Quran commands us to perform Salaat. Our beloved Prophet (pbuh) shows us how and commanded �Pray as you see me praying�.  There can be no addition to or subtraction from the manner of performing the Prayer.

The Quran commands us to perform the Hajj and to experience its benefits. Our Prophet (pbuh) shows us how to perform the Hajj and commanded. �Take from me your rites in performing the pilgrimage.� The pilgrimage must there fore be performed as he did it with only the variations and allowances as he permitted. To sum up here the sunnah is valid for all times to come, there is scope provided in it dealing with issues that people at the time of our Prophet (pbuh) did not face. The very basic principle in Islam is that every act or transaction is allowed unless it is prohibited.

Mod Edit: Just changed the font size. Hope you don't mind. Thanks

My Eyes!!, 41

Can I just change the font size, please?

If I could interject my non-muslim, non-professional opinion, there is a reason why Hadith are important to Shariah.

You compare the Hadith to the Quran and take the Quran above the hadith, but the Hadith tell you more on how to implement the Quran. 

The Quran says to pray, the Hadith tell your HOW to pray.

The Quran tells you to be kind to your brothers, the Hadith shows you how Muhammed (pbuh) put this into practice.

The Hadith offer examples of how the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) put into practice those things taught by the Quran.  That's why they are important to the Shariah Laws.  They act as clarifications for those of us that are a bit thick headed.  They also act as references for adab (Islamic Manners).

Hadiths are good because they also can show how women were integral parts of early Islam.  They show how a man is to be good to his wife by showing how the Prophet (pbuh) was with his wives and how he adjudicated between his followers.  Many hadiths refer to women coming to him for advice.  Obviously they were not locked away in their homes or they couldn't have done this. 

The Hadith are good ways to learn. 

Think of the Quran as the foundation and the house.  The Hadith are the furniture and roof.  The Opinions of Scholars can be the door, windows and garden outside.  All make for the dwelling. 

Anyway, that's just what I've learned in my nearly two years here.  I hope I'm getting it better.

You compare the Hadith to the Quran and take the Quran above the hadith, but the Hadith tell you more on how to implement the Quran. 

The Quran says to pray, the Hadith tell your HOW to pray.

 The above is not right. hadith does not teach us how to pray. It is the practice (Sunnah) of the holy prophet of Islam from the very first day that he did everything in front of his friends that taught us how to perform our prayers.

The same were later written down in the books of Hadith as a further support for the Muslims and to prove the authenticity of their prayers. Hadith is very useful in many ways. But it is sub ordinate to the Quran. A weak hadith is sub ordinate to a true and well established hadith.

The practice of the prophet comes after the Quran which is the first top priority. After the practice (Sunnah) comes the Hadith, i.e. the sayings of the prophet about different matters.  thanks for discussing this.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Brother QheQ if you really want to know and follow the truth then you need to contact the scholars. I dont know where exactly you live in Pakistan but if you live in big cities like karachi or lahore then its easy to go to a good scholar so please do so. If not then please visit this site http://www.darsequran.com/contact/contact.php - http://www.darsequran.com/contact/contact.php  and try to contact Molana Aslam Shaikhupuri, he is very knowledgeable in Holy Quran mashaAllah. You can also ask him to put you through to Molana Tariq Jameel or Hakim sarwar, both are mashaAllah fine scholars.

wassalam

  Supreme and Andalus had replied very well to the Questioner. To say that Quran is the word of the prophet is correct to the extent that after all he (Prophet) spoke those words to the scribes and the Sahabah. Because there is no word "prophet"  there but the word there is "Rasul", that is very important because a rasul can also mean an angel too.

Anyhow, it is wrong (in some way) to say that the Quran is the words of the Prophet. The best is to say that those are the words from Allah. Not the words from the prophet or originating from the prophet. That is very important. If that is believed then the Questioners question becomes redundant.

We will then look forward to any of his new explicit questions, not any vague questions. The important thing to note is that Quran is number one on top of all in priority. Next is the Practice (The Sunnah) of the holy prophet which is a practical example of the Quranic teachings.

Then after that is the sayings (Hadith) OF THE Holy prophet. These three are in that order. They are all needed. They have their importance.  Is this agreed?? or good enough??

If there is any further question, no harm, we can discuss it in a friendly way. i could not follow anything about the mistakes (grammatical) in the Quran. There are some standard variations, I heard about them, but they are of no importance. They have their usefulness which I may be able to explain if ever presented. Thanks.

QheQ wrote: So what I understand so far is that the alleged grammatical errors cannot be discussed now because we do not have a satisfying answer to it. How do you translate "the Holy Prophet" in Arabic? Is it not "Ar-Raroul"? Is it "an-Nabi?". But Quran used the word "Rasoul" for Muhammad pbuh in "Muhammadur Rasulullah" and when Quran says "And whatever the rasoul give you take and whatever he ask you to evade from, give up." Is the Quran possibly addressing an angel? Or does it mean that that Muhammad (pbuh) could have been an angel too? Or that the Quran is the word of an angel (and not God or the prophet?). Then in the sense that an angel delivered this word, history seems to show that it was the prophet who was blamed of being a poet/insane man (God forbid). How could this verse then refer to angel? I may be mistaken but i feel i am unable to understand it which make Quran difficult to understand. Even so, kindly reflect on what part of the Quran actually seems to validate the Hadith?

Can you just summarise your questions, instead of asking questions within a question and then not knowing what exactly are you asking?

Just list them. As I see, you are asking, answering and asking again!

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

QheQ wrote: So what I understand so far is that the alleged grammatical errors cannot be discussed now because we do not have a satisfying answer to it. I think brother arab has explained this in one of the threads. Today's arabic grammer is derived from Holy Quran, with majority of arab community being muslims and all. Now how can a derivative of something prove its origin to be wrong? How do you translate "the Holy Prophet" in Arabic? Is it not "Ar-Raroul"? Is it "an-Nabi?". But Quran used the word "Rasoul" for Muhammad pbuh in "Muhammadur Rasulullah" and when Quran says "And whatever the rasoul give you take and whatever he ask you to evade from, give up." Is the Quran possibly addressing an angel? The word Prophet is meaning of Nabi, while Messenger is that of Rasul. I have taken this passage from some where which beautifully expalins the difference. �A Prophet (Nabi) is one to whom Allaah reveals (yanbi�uhu) something, and he passes on what Allaah has reveals to him. If he is sent with that to those who go against the commandments of Allaah, to convey a message from Allaah to them, then he is a Messenger. But if he follows a sharee�ah that came before him, and is not himself sent to anyone to convey the message from Allaah to them, then he is a Prophet and not a Messenger�� (al-Nubuwwaat, p. 255). One thing everyone keeps saying is to understand any ayaah of Holy Quran, you have to look into context of its revelation. The Ayaah of Holy Quran is 59:7] Whatever Allah has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil): this being ayaah of Surah Hashr. Surah Hashr is also called Surah Bani An-nadir as it was revealed about banu nadir, a jew tribe. So if you read all of the Surah, it is very easy to understand for whom the word 'Messenger' is used. Or does it mean that that Muhammad (pbuh) could have been an angel too? Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala tells Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam to tell people, '18:110] Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one Allah, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord. and there are so many other verses which tells us of Sayyidina Muhammad being a human not an angel. Or that the Quran is the word of an angel (and not God or the prophet?). Then in the sense that an angel delivered this word, history seems to show that it was the prophet who was blamed of being a poet/insane man (God forbid). How could this verse then refer to angel? Now what you refering here is total different Ayaat of a different Surah. [Shakir 81:15] But nay! I swear by the stars, [Shakir 81:16] That run their course (and) hide themselves, [Shakir 81:17] And the night when it departs, [Shakir 81:18] And the morning when it brightens, [Shakir 81:19] Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger, [Shakir 81:20] The processor of strength, having an honorable place with the Lord of the Dominion, [Shakir 81:21] One (to be) obeyed, and faithful in trust. [Shakir 81:22] And your companion is not gone mad. [Shakir 81:23] And of a truth he saw himself on the clear horizon. This is a makkan surah and when leaders of Quraysh saw that it is getting harder for them to stop Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam. They started spreading rumours about him of being mad when he said that he receives revelation through an Angel. So Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is telling that what Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam is reciting to you, these are word of an honoured messenger, in this case an angel. And we get that it is not his own words with the usage of word 'messenger' as messenger is always bringing someone else's message. And we know this verse in not talking about Muhammad being the messenger through the follow up ayaat. As first they talk about this honoured messenger being seen on the horizon and then mention of seen by 'your companion'. Because thats what Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyhi wassalam was to them before the start of revelation, a trustworthy companion. I may be mistaken but i feel i am unable to understand it which make Quran difficult to understand. Brother to understand Holy Quran you need to read its different translations and then tafaasir. But if you dont want to trust anyone then you could try to learn arabic first and know the meaning. To truely understand words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala you have to know the history of revelation and many other things. Thats why in my previous post i said that you should contact a scholar, maybe that will make things clear for you. Even so, kindly reflect on what part of the Quran actually seems to validate the Hadith? I will try to answer this in next post inshaAllah coz i need to find the ayaat first.

Wassalam

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Say: "obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad SAW) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allahs Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messengers duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)."  
(  ���� �����  , An-Noor, Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=24&translator=5 - #24 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=24&translator=5#54 - #54 )

O you who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad SAW) while you are hearing.  
(  ���� �������  , Al-Anfal, Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=8&translator=5 - #8 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=8&translator=5#20 - #20 )

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And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute (with one another) lest you lose courage and your strength depart, and be patient. Surely, Allah is with those who are As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.).  
(  ���� �������  , Al-Anfal, Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=8&translator=5 - #8 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=8&translator=5#46 - #46 )

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And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may obtain mercy.  
(  ���� �� �����  , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=5 - #3 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=5#132 - #132 )

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O you who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) and render not vain your deeds.  
(  ���� ����  , Muhammad, Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=47&translator=5 - #47 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=47&translator=5#33 - #33 )

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O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (  ���� ����&# 1575;�  , An-Nisa, Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=5 - #4 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=5#59 - #59 )

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And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), (  ���� �������  , Al-Maeda, Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=5&translator=5 - #5 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=5&translator=5#92 - #92 )

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So fear Allah and adjust all matters of difference among you, and obey Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), if you are believers.  
(  ���� �������  , Al-Anfal, Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=8&translator=5 - #8 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=8&translator=5#1 - #1 )

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�and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will have His Mercy on them. Surely Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.  
(  ���� ������  , At-Taubah, Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=5 - #9 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=5#71 - #71 )

It is one of basic islamic rule that in worship you are told of what to do because it is limited information while in general life you are told of what not to do as majority of things are permissible.

Holy Quran tells us about Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyahi wassalam 68:4] And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality. Another place Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is saying, '3:31] Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL. So if anybody is looking to please Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala you first look into Holy Quran to find out your answers. You get from Holy Quran that Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyhi wassalam had a great character and to get salvation we need to follow him.

If you look at your life, one of the first things you would think about is prayer. Does Holy Quran tells you how to pray? It only tells you about position of Qiyyam, ruku' and sujud. What do you read in different position, you mention an ayaah of glorifying Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala been read in salah. Ok if we take that then it is our understanding, so next step, to be fair to yourself you should be judging your understanding. Read Holy Quran and try to understand it without the conext of history. Then read it with the right context and judge on how many places your understanding failed you. Apply the same ratio to performing of salah, do you really want to take that much chance with pleasing your Lord.

Now Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran, 'The Prophet has a higher claim on the believers than [they have on] their own selves." (33:6) and He says in another place, 'He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then We have not sent you as a watcher over them." (4:80) In this particular ayaah its not just follow/obey Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and His Messenger, it says whoever follows the messenger has followed the Lord. We know there must have been a way in which Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyhi wassalam prayed. So we look for the ways to find those resources and thats when the sunnah and ahadith come into practise.

Now if you are not sure whether you trust that whole process. Again you turn to Holy Quran, where we told that our early generations are better than the latter ones. Those early generations were the ones who understood the need of collecting ahadith and compiled them. [Shakir 56:10] And the foremost are the foremost,
[Shakir 56:11] These are they who are drawn nigh (to Allah),
[Shakir 56:12] In the gardens of bliss.
[Shakir 56:13] A numerous company from among the first,
[Shakir 56:14] And a few from among the latter.
Those ahadith and sunnah have a very sound chain of narrations, there are quite few ahadith collections. What you find in one collection, you would find the same hadith in another one with different chain. Fourteen centuries have produced thousands and thousands of scholars and every one of them believed and followed ahadith to follow religion properly. If you are doubting their base that mean you doubting what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is saying about this ummah that we are best of ummah raised.

Again in the end you have to see everything in context of relating matters, you cant pick one ayaah and prove it this way or the other. Hope this helps, you dont need to reply to these posts as you have said that you are short on time. I have just tried to explain to you the basics of my understandings.

wassalam

 QheQ, you have appeared after a long time. Perhaps your did not read my post in which it was clearly pointed out that the source of Islam is :

1. The Quran,   2. The Sunnah (the practice of the holy prophet)     3.  The Hadith (the sayings of the prophet  recorded in the books)

All these three are important in that order. hadith is very important for understanding the rligion of Islam. But you have now come back and you are saying that Quran should be taken as the source.. And Hadith should be kept as a valuable historic record. You are right that any Hadith which is not in accordance with Quran should not be accepted.

I have only one comment to make:

I would ask what is a Nabi and what is a Rasool in English. Biblical criterion is that the the propehts prophesised and foretold about events. If that were the standard to verify a prophet then Nostradamus was perhaps the greatest prophet of them all.  

According to the Arabic of Qur'aan, two words have been used for the servants of God. Nabi and Rasool. There were many Nabis who received revelations but they were not given an entire Book or Scripture to transmit it to their people. Rasools received both.

Thus Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were Rasools.

Read Verses 157-158 of Surah 7 Al-aa'raaf and you will note the title given to Muhammad as Rasool-an-Nabi-iyal-Ummi-yal-lazi is self-explanatory in the verses.

Whether one wishes to call him a prophet or messeger, he is both.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

QheQ wrote: What I understand from most responses is that 1. The validity of Hadith is being supported by Quraanic verses saying "Ati-ullaha wa ati-ur-rasool". 2. The word "rasoul" in 69:38-43 does not mean "prophet"

Brother I am ever so sorry to say this but if a person does not know how to ride a horse and he enters a competition for show jumping, people would say things about that. You need to understand the basic concepts before you could actually discuss them and you could easily search them in google or anywhere else for that matters. A Messenger is also a prophet but not the other way round. So when a term like rasool is used for a human rasool then it does also mean prophet but as rasool is a higher status so Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is addressing them with more respect.

QheQ wrote: For the first statement, what I understand is that the Quran is saying "follow Allah" AND "Follow the rasoul". This does not seem to make Hadith a valid "source". [/QheQ]   It tells us that to follow religion properly you need to look at sunnah of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam too, and ahadith are best form of that.   QheQ wrote: As far as the source of guidance is concerned, 45:2-9 declare that the source of this guidance is Quran ALONE.   [45:2] The revelation of the Book is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise. [45:3] Most surely in the heavens and the earth there are signs for the believers. [45:4] And in your (own) creation and in what He spreads abroad of animals there are signs for a people that are sure; [45:5] And (in) the variation of the night and the day, and (in) what Allah sends down of sustenance from the cloud, then gives life thereby to the earth after its death, and (in) the changing of the winds, there are signs for a people who understand. [45:6] These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications? [45:7] Woe to every sinful liar, [45:8] Who hears the communications of Allah recited to him, then persists proudly as though he had not heard them; so announce to him a painful punishment. [45:9] And when he comes to know of any of Our communications, he takes it for a jest; these it is that shall have abasing chastisement. Where exactly does it say that?   QheQ wrote: As far as the second statement is concerned, if "rasoul" in surah 69 doesn't mean prophet, why does it necessarily mean "prophet" in "ati-ullaha wa ati-ur-rasoul"?   [69:40] Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger, [69:41] And it is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe; [69:42] Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind. It surely means Rasool as in Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam in these ayaat. I am sure you must have heard the expression, 'kahin ki eentt kahin ka rodrha' (sorry not trying to be rude to non urdu speaking people but cant find a better expression in english)   QheQ wrote: For further clarity, please see 8:13 in which Quran says "Atiullaha wa atiur-rasoulu wa laa tawallau anhu". In this ayah, "anhu" is a singular expression which clearly appears to make "atiullah" and "atiur-rasoul" the one and the same thing.   [8:13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil). Again What??????   QheQ wrote: And I can see clearly that the Quran says how to pray. In Al-Aala, Quran says: "Qad AflaHa mann Tadhakka. Wa Dhakarasma rabbihi faSalla". So "Salaah" is simply the rememberance of one's RAB. This is how I understand it.   [Shakir 87:1] Glorify the name of your Lord, the Most High, [Shakir 87:2] Who creates, then makes complete, [Shakir 87:3] And Who makes (things) according to a measure, then guides (them to their goal), [Shakir 87:4] And Who brings forth herbage, [Shakir 87:5] Then makes it dried up, dust-colored. [Shakir 87:6] We will make you recite so you shall not forget, [Shakir 87:7] Except what Allah pleases, surely He knows the manifest, and what is hidden. [Shakir 87:8] And We will make your way smooth to a state of ease. [Shakir 87:9] Therefore do remind, surely reminding does profit. [Shakir 87:10] He who fears will mind, [Shakir 87:11] And the most unfortunate one will avoid it, [Shakir 87:12] Who shall enter the great fire; [Shakir 87:13] Then therein he shall neither live nor die. [Shakir 87:14] He indeed shall be successful who purifies himself, [Shakir 87:15] And magnifies the name of his Lord and prays. [Shakir 87:16] Nay! you prefer the life of this world, [Shakir 87:17] While the hereafter is better and more lasting. [Shakir 87:18] Most surely this is in the earlier scriptures, [Shakir 87:19] The scriptures of Ibrahim and Musa. Where exactly is it telling you how to pray? One ayaah you could seem to be mistaking is not even saying what you are trying to take as justification of you misguided attitude. I am sorry to say that but thats exactly what root cause is for you and many others who think "I, the intelligent one". The Ayaah is saying, 'And magnifies the name of his Lord and Prays', not in prayer, and prays.   [QUOTE=QheQ] And last but not least... Wouldn't it be wiser to regard only Quran as the source of Islam and ahadith only as a valuable historic record which may be accepted ONLY IF it is in line with the Quran and NOT on the basis of trust in the people who narrated them?

Islam is not what you prefer and could go along easily with your life style, it is what was revealed 1400 years ago and practised in its best form back then. If you truely seeking guidance then follow as it was practised by the ones who were given glad tidings of pleasure of their Lord in this world. If you want to follow you own desires then do not try to find its justification in Holy Qur'an. What you trying to suggest of 'lets do' is an innovation in deen of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

wassalam

 I have not been able to understand the purpose of the posts of QheQ. Islam is to be understood by Quran, Sunnah and Hadith. That is the general understanding of all Muslims. QheQ please indicate what you believe.

QheQ wrote: Ok, let me admit and try to be in a more learning stance. Just please clarify why Hadith should be believed as authentic in the presence of the following Quranic assertions: 1. Indeed this is the saying of the prophet 2. (45:4-6): Then which 'hadith' after Allah and His verses do they believe? 3. (47:24): Then do they not ponder over the Quran... Waiting for the answer. Regards

QheQ is either playing with words or he does not understand Arabic, If he is sincere then this should put an end to his questioning:

�Indeed this is the saying of the prophet� it is a wrong translation of (Innaho laqowl Rasoolin Kareem�

In Arabic �Rasool� means messenger and �Kareem� means Honorable and truthful so the correct translation is

�81.19. That this is in truth the word of an honored messenger; 81.20. Mighty, established in the presence of the Lord of the Throne; 81.21 . ( One ) to be obeyed , and trustworthy ;�

Now messenger usually delivers a message and if he is an Honorable and truthful messenger, then he will deliver the exact message that is passed on to him, it was not a paper, it was �Qawl� which means say, so it was the say of God almighty delivered to Mohamed (the Honorable and truthful messenger) who passed it over to us truthfully.

 2. (45:4-6): Then which 'hadith' after Allah and His verses do they believe?

I hope you not trying to deceive Moslems and non-Moslems by changing the wording an picking specific words to distract every body and create an issue of it:

The true phrase came in Al-Jatheya; After Almighty God speaks about the wonders of his creations see below:

45.1 . Ha . Mim .

45.2 . The revelation of the Scripture is from Allah , the Mighty , the Wise .

45.3 . Lo! in the heavens and the earth are portents for believers .

45.4 . And in your creation , and all the beasts that He scattered in the earth , are portents for a folk whose faith is sure .

45.5 . And the difference of night and day and the provision that Allah sendeth down from the sky and thereby quickeneth the earth after her death , and the ordering of the winds , are portents for a people who have sense .

45.6 . These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth . Then in what fact , after Allah and His portents , will they believe?

So it is not Hadiths it is FACTS after Al-Mighty God you believe. Stop playing around

3. (47:24): Then do they not ponder over the Quran...

Also why don�t you be honest in translating and finish the Aya (phrase) the correct one is this:

47.24 . Will they then not meditate on the Quran , or are there locks on the hearts?

I don�t know what that has to do with Hadiths, now I believe that there are locks on your heart, kindly try to open it.

Walsalam

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

JazkAllah khair for clraifications of things kmohareb and May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala guide us all to His path, ameen.

Wassalam

  There is in the posts above the following:

 [69:40] Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger,
[69:41] And it is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe;
[69:42] Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind.

It surely means Rasool as in Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam in these ayaat. I am sure you must have heard the expression, 'kahin ki eentt kahin ka rodrha' (sorry not trying to be rude to non urdu speaking people but cant find a better expression in english)

 What is the problem here? We all need some understanding. Does some one believe that the word "rasool un kareem" here in verse 69:40 means "The angel Jibreel a.s."? I want to know that.Please inform whois suggesting that meaning.... Thanks.

minuteman wrote:     There is in the posts above the following:  [69:40] Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger, [69:41] And it is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe; [69:42] Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind. It surely means Rasool as in Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam in these ayaat. I am sure you must have heard the expression, 'kahin ki eentt kahin ka rodrha' (sorry not trying to be rude to non urdu speaking people but cant find a better expression in english)  What is the problem here? We all need some understanding. Does some one believe that the word "rasool un kareem" here in verse 69:40 means "The angel Jibreel a.s."? I want to know that.Please inform who is suggesting that meaning.... Thanks.

Mimuteman,

Rasool-un-Kareem clearly refers to the  prophet. You are right.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Brother minuteman problem is not with understanding this particular ayaah because if you read it in its context you can clearly see that it refers to Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam. Brother QheQ first mentioned the verse [81:19] Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger', which does mean Jibrail alayhissalaam, if you read the ayaat following it (i have explained on the previious page).

I dont know whether brother is really confused himself that he forgot which ayaah he wanted to know explanation of or was he just trying to catch us out that he was asking about one and then later refering to the other one.

But as brother has dropped it, i think we should move on in a hope that inshaAllah we all be sincere in our learning and not play the words game.

wassalam

 Yes, Thanks. I know some friends try to use the words "Rasool in Kareem" of Surah 81 Al-Takweer to mislead. The same word " Rasool in Kareem" is used in Surah 69, Al-Haaqah, verse 20. They try to take the meaning in Surah Al-haaqah that Rasool in Kareem is the angel Jibreel a.s. That is not correct.

Rasool can be a man or an angel, no doubt. But in verse 69:20, the Rasool is the prophet s.a.w.s. because the verses after 20 are telling about it all. An angel cannot be caught from the right hand and killed. An angel can never disobey or make a mistake in giving the message..  These things should be known to those friends who try to take the wrong meanings. Well, thanks.