Much of the opposition here to Nationalism was based on the negative aspect of it in teh context of Middle Eastern experiance and literal Quranic interpretation. I am not well versed to quote Quran and Hadith. But I believe the real world and results should be taken in account.

The world is not homogeneously made out of one race or one religion. Even within one race, one find differences in religion or differences in smaller sub-groups. Any person will be categorie by criterias and it is human nature to affiliate with a particularly type of grouping.

Even the Quran attest to this. But it is how taqwa you are that really determines ones status and it means how much have you adhered to the way of Islam, as much as you are capable (taking account we are imperfect, weak and mortal beings).

In Malaysia, it has been a long debate on Nationalism vs Islamic State (or Negara Islam). The "Islamist" Oppostion party, PAS accused UMNO, the Malay Nationalist party and the dominant member in the ruling coolition, BN, of practising Assobiyah and promotes the idea of Islamic State.

PAS has used similar arguments one find in these conference/threads, to justify Islam to over-ride existing political and social structure. While, UMNO has questioned PAS version of Islamic State, criticed it as lacking meat for a comprehensive solution to a multiracial and multireligious developing nation and small quarters viewed PAS as advocating Arabism, then Islam.

The former Prime Minister, Tun Dr Mahathir made claim that Malaysia is already an Islamic State. WHen taken into account reality, there are too few modern Islamic state nation and the concept of modern Islamic State varies between Islamic intellectuals. For Malaysia, many Islamic intelectuals like the Azhar Rector has given acknowledgement to Malaysia.

As an ordinary Malay, who professes and practise Islam, reads history and travelled the world, I view Nationalism should not be narrowly criticised from a theological ideology point of view but need to consider the historical, cultural, and political reality.

As I see, there is nothing wrong with the way Nationalism is practised in Malaysia as Islam could be practised, no discrimination against fellow Muslim and Islam is well imbedded and inseparable part of Malay culture.

Malay Civilisation has already absorded Islam to its culture and it can be conveniently claimed that Malay=ISlam and Islam=MAlay. History records shows that the conversion to Islam by Malays was seamless. Conventional history, as advocated by the European and non Muslim/Malay, believed that Malays were formerly Hindu or Buddhist. But some research has revealed that Malays were actually practising some form of monotheist religion or perhaps the pure monotheist Hindu or Buddha religion.

Assobiyah, as I see is the bias affiliation to ones race/tribes that results in human discrimination, cruelty and sadism to one outside ones grouping. I am sorry to say this but assobiyah is practised in Arab culture up to today. ANd, not Malay culture. Malay is an open culture and ready to embrace diverse race and good practices into its own.

Nationalism in Malaysia comes with an affirmative action for the son-of-soil of Malays and others races to compensate the discrimation imposed by the colonials and as catch up to the other immigrant races. Muslims of non Malays are not discriminated against as the racial defination is relax on non Malay Muslim for a son-of-soil status.

I see Nationalism as a necessary tool and justify for the development of the ummah, within the context of Malaysia. Nationalism was the necessary ideology in the 50s to unite the people to seek independence from the British. Race is a more practical grouping for the up-lifting of the poor and uneducated and the discriminated by history.

In Malaysia, the facilities, the budget allocation, the infrastructure, and the education to learn, practise and propogate Islam is available. We have many Islamic Institutions such Islamic Banks, Zakat institution, Islamic Universities, and many types of Instituion not found in many Islamic nations. Malays are practising Muslims, who are steadfast with the prayers, fasting in Ramadhan, paying of zakat and insufficient quotas for us to perform Haj and Umrah. It is not bad for a nation that is based on Malay Nationalism.

I strongly adhere to the Prophet's Hadith, which I can't exactly reproduce verbatim now, but to the effect it means we are in the best position and knowledgable to address our worldly affair.

What good is a full proof ideology if the people of the nation is poor and illiterate and the nation is disunited, weak and not at peace. Islam is best propogated in a condition of peace.

What good is fervent ideology when you can't come down to any workable solutions to govern your nation and it is in constant flux of turmoil.

In my days as student in America and Europe, I saw how Middle East politics affected Jumaat prayers. An Imam from one nationalities invite demonstration from with ane section of nationalities and teh change to another brings another set of demonstraters. Jumaat is disruptive and we saw many Imams performing the Jumaat. This happened some years back in Malaysia, with PAS militiaristic stand that a few rural mosque saw to Imams, and the fatwa issued by PAS to call its opponent murtad. Thank God, they have never appeal to voter.

I advocate Arab Muslims to learn from Malay and Chinese Muslims how to live in peace and live in reality. Malay and Chinese Muslim are bigger in population than Arabs. I believe we are a better example of Islamic behaviour of courtesy and tolerance than Arab Muslims.

===========================================

Topic: As I See ... (2 of 2), Read 3 times  
Conf:  Issues: Nationalism Within the Ummah 
From:  Angel
Date:  Thursday, March 10, 2005 09:55 PM 

"What experience & history teach is this: that people & governments have never learned anything from history".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~

interesting post

Angel.

"PAS has used similar arguments one find in these conference/threads, to justify Islam to over-ride existing political and social structure. While, UMNO has questioned PAS version of Islamic State, criticed it as lacking meat for a comprehensive solution to a multiracial and multireligious developing nation and small quarters viewed PAS as advocating Arabism, then Islam. "

It is interesting that Muslims lose their culture and language in no time, when they settle in the West;whereas, when it comes to uniting (or creating an Islamic state) they come up with complex theories about how much they love their language and culture etc. and how difficult it is for them to create an Islamic state because of that.

ZamanH.

ZamanH wrote: "It is interesting that Muslims lose their culture and language in no time, when they settle in the West;" ZamanH.

As we know many good Muslims scholar in the west, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Dr. Muzamil Siddiqui, Dr. Ahmad Sakr, Dr. Hasan Hathout they still good even though already years live in the west, even their kids that educated and grows in the west still good Muslims. And many regular muslims and their families still keep the religion tightly.

sarahrosecurry wrote: Thus many of the Muslims that are coming over are changing. I have several friends that fit his statement exactly. They have noticably changed since their move to West.

Perhaps it is also that they are free to do some of the things that were oppressed in their homeland, some can't even practice their religion properly and now they can being in the west.

I do understand what ZamanH is talking about, those who don't keep up with their language and culture can lose it.

Yes I know, some will get caught up in the evils of the west ;-)

semar wrote: ZamanH wrote: "It is interesting that Muslims lose their culture and language in no time, when they settle in the West;" ZamanH. Why ZamanH so convinced that "west" is bad for Muslims? Do you have any real example?

Atleast in that post, my point was not whether West is bad for Muslims or not. My point was, when it comes to adopting Western culture, Muslims in general, do it more readily than when it is required for them to follow Islam strictly.

Also, I don't consider myself to be absoulutely perfect Muslim. But, I don't say what I should do is wrong, simply, because i can't do it.

ZamanH

It is convenient approach to dispell an opinion by choice nit picking. Lets not miss the wood from the trees.

Where did I specifically mention of redefining the concept of Islamic state? My stand have been one realism. The test of a pudding is in the taste. Whose are we to follow? Iqbal's Pakistan? Khomeini's Iran? Al Banna and Syed Qutb's vision of Egypt? Maududi's India? Abdul Wahab's Saudi Arabia? Taliban's Afghanistan? Show me!

The idea of a state, Islamic or otherwise, is about governing, administering,  law & order, peace, millitary, livelihood, welfare, etc.  For an Islamic state, it is seeing Islam practise and flourish. Look at the countries mentioned and make your own conclusion. 

One commentary dismissed Malay Nationalism as about romantic notion of culture and language. You missed the point totally. Malay Nationalism is about Realpolitik, understanding and workign within the Malaysian demography, history and society. PAS�s idea of Islamic state totally disregard all these aspect of Malaysia.

I do not have any confidence of mullah�s ability to grasp these complexities. PAS�s Nik Aziz inefficiency in administering the state of Kelantan and arrogance of Hadi in his stinct in the state of Terengganu are living examples. Even, the Arab-beloved, Anwar Ibrahim, the fallen out grace former Deputy Prime Minister and perceived as an Islamist. openly disagree with PAS�s Islamic state stand.     

Someone mentioned abt non Malay Muslim to be a Prime Minister?  IF you are familiar with teh tarik (a Malaysian favourite social drink of sweetened milk tea), you must have known that our former PMs have blood lineage with Siam, Central Asian, and India. In fact, Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, the current PM, has Arab blood.

In reply to another comment, Nationalism definitely is not the only reason for today�s success. Economy need peace to develop and peace nature of Malays through their Malaysia nationalism struggle to lead the country provided for that.

May Allah bless this nation of ours. 

utd4ever,

Thank you very much for your fresh reply, i believe it has stirred some emotions, but sincerely hope it did without offending you. To be able to disagree without having to reject each other is a blessing, i hope we are blessed, insha Allaah. There is no need to get involved in the web cob of country's internal politicking and mentioning of names, myself not interested and not well updated of lobby interviews of Malaysian parliament and politics.

Whether you are confident in the mullah's abilities to structure complex banking transactions, is beside the point. To see who has contributed to the current state of the country's economy may I suggest browsing through the recently published list of top 40 Malaysian (not Malay) businessmen... have a look at their nationality and consider that this is in the environment where "son-of-the-soil" is granted his extras...

My only point is that in today's world , our nationality, the numerous nationalities of world Muslims to be precise, should play little role in the development of our self-esteem. Anyone pratising nationalism in today's world is no different from an Arab practising tribalism during the days of ignorance, the Jahilliyah. Today's world should be seen as Arabian peninsular of the early Ummah. Whether we are lead by a Japanese, Kadazan or a Pashtun does not matter as long as he abides by Shari'ah, which has no place for cronyism or other unacceptable preferences. Please correct me if something is not in line with genuine Islamic principles.

Looking at the definition - Nationalism is bad. Perhaps the correct word that could have softened your post would be Patriotism. It is pleasing to see that in your new post you progressed from "Malay nationalism" into some "Malaysia nationalism", i assume now it encompasses all races in Malaysia and makes much more difference considering the fact that Malay population is not significantly above half of the entire population of the country.

The Islamic State, first and foremost, is based on Shari'ah, not partially... must point out that implementation of Shari'ah does not require environment of peace and harmony prior to its establishment. Peace and harmony both political and economic are its by-products. There is no racial, ethnic or lineage related preference under such system, therefore there is no nationalism. There is no open corruption of the banking system aimed at trapping majority of people into debts and then offering them a sympathetic life-long restructuring plan.

If you want to see success of nationalism, Israel would be a good example. For a Jew, nationalism is the backbone of success, it instructs for everyone to respect and act in the interest of the Jew without any reciprocity. Its's success today is only an illusion.   

Nationalism blinds a person, it distorts his/ her perception of the inwardly self, by suggesting that he is above over the seeming insignificance of the others. Nationalism separates nations, whereas Islam unites nations. It's simple.

The leader of an Islamic State is not a businessman sorting out holdings and their subsidiaries among his family members, neither is he a mystic sorting out rosary beads and forecasting economic prosperity based on report from his nightly visions. He does not have to be "made in Malaysia", "Arab-beloved", or approved by Pakistan... he is firstly Muslim to the best of this word. The concept of the Islamic State has been regularly hi-jacked by many, including those listed in your post, but one need not climb Hindu Kush to study and abide by the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah in search of an Islaamic state and leader.

United, indeed, we should stand. United Muslims, of different nations around the world and under one banner... insha Allah.

And Allah knoweth best.

MOCKBA   

Assalamualaikum Mckoba

My Malay side is supposed to contain emotion, be courteous, polite and sensitive to others� feeling. I should apologise if I had misbehaved. Please not make anything more out of an exclamation mark. Also, I shd point out that I mistyped the word Malaysian Nationalism. So, if I read you correctly, I have not progressed. Pity me.   

Perhaps I could reply with a tic-for-tac. Perhaps, use the standard debating trick to deny or present new facts. Utilise defensive or offensive postures. And perhaps take the discussion to a different level or direction. Perhaps use some spin. Definitely I will not use Israel as example or tell Muslim to emulate those ruthless Zionist Khazarians.

Since you seemed to advocate a solitary attitude to �agree to disagree�, then I will take it in good spirit not to resort to those tactic of debating that will end up into endless exchanges.

No point trying to convert anyone�s opinion. People could gather their own fact, criteria, prioritise and derived best fit conclusion. They change when their heart is appealed to. I am sure you will agree that we shd lay our fact than resort to use of strong words such as �blind�, �distorted� and �illusion� and get worked up with own conceived conclusion.   

I grew up with the song of the late John Lennon, Imagine. He seemed unislamic by syariah standard but the message of the song is �Islamic� and universal in promoting ideals of peace and harmony amongst all of mankind, beyond the boundaries of race, country and religion.

Peace does matter to nation building and could not be conveniently subjugated as mere by product. That is political Islam. Islam by its Malay meaning is �sejahtera� or trasnlated by Kamus Lengkap as �peaceful and prosperous�, �free and calm�, �safe�, �free from difficulties�, etc. Here I differ violently than MCKOBA

All �principal� is inextricably tied and accompanied by �interest�. Getting ideological without protecting ones interest is plain obtuse. As Muslims, we must abide by our Islamic principle to be fair and just in that endeavour to protect our interest. As far as the Malay Muslim experience in Malaysia, our homeland, we have been on the defensive, mere reactive and the receiving end of discrimination.

Coming back to the issue at hand. If my recollection of history has not abondaned me, one of the earliest modern Islamic thinkers was the persian Jamaluddin Al Afghani. In the early part of 20^th century or perhaps late 19^th century, he observed the deplorable state of Muslim in the �Islamic� nation-state carved out by the colonials. He advocate Muslims to free themselves from colonial power and see the need for Muslims to be united.

From him, sprang other modern Islamic thinkers generating each own version of solutions to the malice of the ummah. The approaches to the solutions cuts within the divide of realist vis-�-vis idealist, �modern� vis-�-vis conservative, political vis-�-vis economic, etc.

One solution mooted was for Islamic statehood, said to be based on the Medina Constitution, which is the general moral principle to govern the multiracial and multireligious city-state of  Medina. When the Prophet Muhammad passed away,  it was continued by the Khalifah Ar Rashidun. Their wise judgement and the adherence of the subjects are the hallmark of the early Islamic government. 

As the empire grew, governing become more complex, the ideals of the Medina Constitution became difficult to apply. Human nature takes over as powers struggle shaape up. The Khalifahdom was structured into dynasty and inherited rulers. Any change in a dynasty is preceded by power struggle. Leadership is no more selected from amongst the most knowledgable and suitable. 

One can deduce that prior to Jamaluddin Afghani, the concept of Islamic state was non existence. Medina Constitution was not a Constitution per say. Nation state doesn�t exist until the Western colonial powers come to being. The idea of Islamic state is  a political approach to solve socio-economic problems of the ummah. It is not just about syariah law.

What has the ideological luxuries lead us to? Have there been any well conceived solution derived from these ideologies (off course with Quran and Hadith as source) that managed to solve the malice of the ummah?  

Islam at its primary level is about taqwa ie abiding and refraining. Then its about moving up in the spirituality learning and experience curve of feel and finally taste (I�ll not get to it). Thus, the state of Islam (not to be confused with Islamic state) is best through individuals salvation to strive for goodness or at least, ever conscience of goodness (ihsan). It would flourish in a state of peace and prosperity and not by legalistic approach.   

I concur with Jamaluddin Afghani (and Mockba) on the need for Muslim unity to bring out strength. To what extent does Islamic unity exist? If the response of some of our fellow cash rich Muslim to the plight of my fellow Malay Muslim in the Acheh Tsunami disaster, as  compared to other natiosn of the world, is an indication, can I rely on such perception of unity.

Its clearly that to each we should learn to fend for ourselves. The reality is that problem and constraints of Muslims at one region could not be understood by another Muslim from another region. Mockba idealistic propositions seemed in denial to the unique constraints, history and problem beseiging Malay Muslims in Malaysia.

Although your source of the published 40 businessmen is inaccurate, derived from malaysia Business magazine, I accept that we are not doing as well as we wanted in this area compared to fellow Malaysians from the other races. But it is to the Malay and Muslim interest to do well in business. 

Perhaps, I become unMalay to be boostful. In many other areas than the apex of business, Malay Nationalism has been helpful in uplifting the ummah. Some only 30 odd years ago, we started the race from way behind and we have high percentage of poverty in our community. In education, we were some more than 100 years disadvantaged in our motherland. Things are way much better. 

Malay Nationalism or whatever term you wish to coin, is a current solution to the plight of the Malaysian ummah. An approach that balance principle of fair governing and interest of the son-of-soil. Achieving peace in an unarmed war with SunTzu strategist. If we are to conform to total meritocrasy, it would be an uneven race with a clear loser.

I could concede to Mockba that the future maybe different, lets not deny the fact it was a localised solution. I still pose the same repeated question: What model of Islamic state will help teh plight of the ummah in Malaysia? As far as meeting Mockba�s criteria of Islamic State, syariah law has long been carried out albeit without the hudud. (That�s your bullet). Our leaders are elected, not inherited. They are educated, experience and full time politicians.  

I do not expect you to understand and agree with me. That�s the way the cookie crumble. Allah knows our intentions.

Wassalam

Respectfully

utd4ever

Dear utd4ever,

you have made quite an effort to respond to my simple objection of nationalism... with a whirlwind of mixed thoughts and bits of Sun Tzu's art of war, principles of debate, al-Afghani, colonialism, John Lennon, tsunami, malay linguistics to mention a few... my response is nothing but to appreciate it, the effort. Though I would rather like it if, in the case i were not to agree, you could at least expect me understand you, referring to your last line.  

Malaysian ummah, as far as i thought, is made up of Malay Muslims, significant number of Muslims with strong flavour of Indian sub-continent, occasional yet not uncommon Chinese Muslims and other few. Malay Nationalism does not seem to be embracing non-Malay Muslims of the Malaysian Ummah and could not therefore be, as you say, "current solution to the plight of the Malaysian ummah". You may have noticed that difference is being made between Malay and Malaysian - the two are not always the same, the former being a race, by the way. 

I would not expand on the subject of leadership through electoral votes, riba being the foundation of the economy of the Islamic State, Malaysian Shari'ah governed by a predominant Common Law, and Malay meaning of Islaam if it happens to be revealing something new to the world, as i have tried to focus on nationalism only and its incompatibility with Islaam. In my previous two posts i have provided basic information that i find at this point convincing enough to reject nationalism and racism.

nationalism

n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriotism - patriotism ] 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=multiculturalism - multiculturalism , http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism - internationalism ] 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination 4: the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism - internationalism ]

Have a look at the above definition, particularly [2]. Take some time reflecting on what it means. Now that you know the meaning of "nationalism" try answer a simple question - Is it in line with Islaamic teachings? 

Those very mullah's that you see so impotent today are very often the result of nationalism which makes them look at the world as being confined within the boundary of their village, state and country.  

MOCKBA

Assalamualaikum

MOCKBA

From your firm stand to my lengthy and barrage of Information thrown in the fry, may you deserve heaven, where lies all  perfection for us mortals. While I have to continue with my hope, pray and fought so that my people would not be distracted by worldly difficulties in their temporal journey for the hereafter.  

Perhaps I have to do a nit pick response. My responses are in blue. 

you have made quite an effort to respond to my simple objection of nationalism... with a whirlwind of mixed thoughts and bits of Sun Tzu's art of war, principles of debate, al-Afghani, colonialism, John Lennon, tsunami, malay linguistics to mention a few... my response is nothing but to appreciate it, the effort. Though I would rather like it if, in the case i were not to agree, you could at least expect me understand you, referring to your last line.  

You are too high in heavenly pedestal to come down to temporal reality. I am failing to gain at least an appreciation that I am talking from our life journey towards heaven than your perfection in heaven. I can't even extract your honest reply on  Islamic state.  

Perhaps I shd start pointing out, that your perfect 2020 vision have peripheral imperfecion.  

Malaysian ummah, as far as i thought, is made up of Malay Muslims, significant number of Muslims with strong flavour of Indian sub-continent, occasional yet not uncommon Chinese Muslims and other few.

Indian in Malaysia is 10 odd %,  the bulk are Hindu. Indian Muslim make up perhaps only 2-3% of population. Chinese Muslims are infinitesimal vis-a-vis the total popn. Or we have to talks in terms of atom, electrons, and quarks.

Malay Nationalism does not seem to be embracing non-Malay Muslims of the Malaysian Ummah and could not therefore be, as you say, "current solution to the plight of the Malaysian ummah". You may have noticed that difference is being made between Malay and Malaysian - the two are not always the same, the former being a race, by the way. 

I refrain from detailing at length in a public forum. Browse for the work mamak, which is Indian Muslim, can you make out the mamaks from Malays. Find out about UMNO Tanjung Division in  Penang. Browse for a former singer, DJ Dave, this is interesting example. Heard of the Tan of Pengkalen Group or the Zaiton Industry. I should be resting my case here if you care to understand.

I would not expand on the subject of leadership through electoral votes (You got proof? CNN News don't count) , riba being the foundation of the economy of the Islamic State (Hint hint I am a former banker. Care to elaborate.) , Malaysian Shari'ah governed by a predominant Common Law (get your facts right before stating this position), and Malay meaning of Islaam if it happens to be revealing something new to the world (Whats so wrong there?).

Well we can talk of all that. Just be clear on the terms of reference. Or it'll be sliding all over like debating with PAS when they are pressed to the wall. 

But its ole rhetorics. Boring. I want to see solution for the ummah in Malaysia. Muslims should solve their localised problems, then look up to heaven to humbly kneel before God with the satisfaction that we have empowered Islam and the ummah.

as i have tried to focus on nationalism only and its incompatibility with Islaam. 

I am failing as a debater. I keep repeating and you still assuming Malay Nationalism as Nationalism. Are you related to Camdesus or with the IMF?  

In my previous two posts i have provided basic information that i find at this point convincing enough to reject nationalism and racism.

nationalism

n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriotism - patriotism ] 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=multiculturalism - multiculturalism , http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism - internationalism ] 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination 4: the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism - internationalism ]

Have a look at the above definition, particularly [2]. Take some time reflecting on what it means. Now that you know the meaning of "nationalism" try answer a simple question - Is it in line with Islaamic teachings? 

No wonder you were equating Malay Nationalism with Zionism in your last posting. I implied it as a wild accusation and offensive remark. And you are still repeating it here. 

I suggest you start rereading also no. 1, no. 3 and no. 4 and understand in a dictionary you pick which meaning is applicable and not spin it to suit your argument! Now forward, you shd take the exclamation mark seriously.

Those very mullah's that you see so impotent today are very often the result of nationalism which makes them look at the world as being confined within the boundary of their village, state and country.  

Correction! That is wild unguided generalisation. Perhaps you should read up history and find out of Malay Islamic scholar of past and such. Those mullah I mentioned are proponents of Islamic state like you but are unable to and lacking idea and intellect to govern a state.  

Lets get real and see things in totality. Negativism and recalcitrant idealism leads to nowhere.   

Wassalam

utd4ever

Wa'alaikumu Salaam

utd4ever,

Thought my points were simple and clear, i tried to discuss the subject of nationalism but from your responses i conclude that you suspect me being a wild undercover supporter of your opposition (PAS i presume) occasionally flashing flags of some reformasi movement and being in secret conspiracy with IMF and may be even Wolfowitz... Take it easy, calm down and rest assured that I am not Malay (though still Muslim, alhamdulillah), not even Malaysian (but very fond of Malaysia), my news updates dont come from CNN (or one selected news channel) and I prefer to watch snow fall outside of my window.   

I am away from political demagogism and make every endeavour to disengage from any blabber that is heard therefrom. When it comes to Islaamic teachings and principles, I try my best to seek them from the Qur'an, from the authentic ahadeeth and work of scholars who have a habit of making accurate references to the former sources. And as such it is least interesting for me to look for "Islaamic" messages in John Lennon's songs, Mahathir's or PAS' concept of Islaamic State or salvation through the means of "progressive" Islaam.

It was nationalism, and having not established focused discussion on the subject, I did not find it appropriate to elaborate on concept of Islamic state, here. Yet, i can't but make short comments to some of your other departed secondary mentions.

Would you insist that Malay Muslims strictly receive interest-free housing loans, education loans, car loans and are not allowed involvement in anything that stipulates any form of interest? Do they buy houses at the current market value and are expected to re-pay the very same amount within say 25 years time. Or does the bank assume how much this house would cost in 25 years time, add the amount that they (the bank) could have collected from possible interest and based on this come up with the price for the house that you want to buy today (considerably above its current market value)... labeling it Islaamic Banking. You do not have to be a banker to understand very basic form of ribaa... but many Muslims, unfortunately, are made to believe otherwise.  

When you are served food, you dont eat the plate leaving the food on the table, do you?... but today's many Muslims seem to be doing that. They deduce what they call "principles of Islam" from some writings, similar to that of my posts, written and published yesterday, leaving the Quran and the authentic records as either "too complex" to comprehend or "inapplicable" to the "modern age".

Without having tried to establish basics, they itch in urge of introducing "progress"... 

Imagine you scribble your daily plan on the paper, and having realised towards the end of the day that you have missed your appointments, you came to a conclusion that solution lies in getting yourself a PDA with sophisticated diary software installed in it. Progress? Awkward? It is amazing how common this ignorant approach is...

Once again, I very much appreciate your thoughts and comments. They are like machine-gun firing in all directions... You definitely have a lot to share, your knowledge and your experience, as you have encompassed so many things in the limited space and within such a short span of time. And you should continue, for the bettement of those who come here with good intentions seeking knowledge, unity and comments on issues of their current concern... insha Allaah. 

Ma'a Salaam.

MOCKBA

utd4ever wrote: I grew up with the song of the late John Lennon, Imagine. He seemed unislamic by syariah standard but the message of the song is �Islamic� and universal in promoting ideals of peace and harmony amongst all of mankind, beyond the boundaries of race, country and religion.

How can pop icons, every action of whose is inspired by conceitment and self-aggrandizment, can be expected to act islamically??

And, you seem to be deviating from the topic and not Mockba.

utd4ever wrote: Peace does matter to nation building and could not be conveniently subjugated as mere by product.

Yes, I agree peace is important for nation building. But peace is repugnant without justice. Without justice, peace is a big deception. Peace can only be acheived after justice has been done.

utd4ever wrote: What has the ideological luxuries lead us to? Have there been any well conceived solution derived from these ideologies (off course with Quran and Hadith as source) that managed to solve the malice of the ummah?

Muslims gained power and glory because of their adherence to their religion. Before Islam, those, who converted to Islam, were nothing. Islam brought them prosperity. Muslims fell because of their indulgence in wine and women. Muslims disobeyed Allah, though, they were warned by Muhammad (S.A.S). Muslims have never benefited from digressing from their religion. Our salvation lies only in return to our faith.

utd4ever wrote: Islam at its primary level is about taqwa ie abiding and refraining. Then its about moving up in the spirituality learning and experience curve of feel and finally taste (I�ll not get to it). Thus, the state of Islam (not to be confused with Islamic state) is best through individuals salvation to strive for goodness or at least, ever conscience of goodness (ihsan). It would flourish in a state of peace and prosperity and not by legalistic approach.

Islam has to be followed in all walks of life. Islam is not supposed to be a pastime. It has to be followed to the full. We can adopt views and customs of non-islamic cultures ONLY if they don't clash with the Islamic laws.

Besides, you seem to be opposed to the point that Islam enjoined fighting to oppose persecution.

utd4ever wrote: To what extent does Islamic unity exist?

That depends on us. We will have to unite and learn to help each other. I know it is very difficult and I don't know how it will be done. But I certainly know that it is much easier for us to unite than, it was for Muhammad (S.A.S) to deliver the Message of Allah to mankind.

utd4ever wrote: If the response of some of our fellow cash rich Muslim to the plight of my fellow Malay Muslim in the Acheh Tsunami disaster, as  compared to other natiosn of the world, is an indication, can I rely on such perception of unity.

Are you a woman, by the way??

We cannot hope to unite unless, we stop questioning what other Muslims can do for us and start asking ourselves what we can do for other Muslims.

In the past, Muslims brought prosperity to the lands they conquered.  Whereas, Westerners impoverished whichever land that had the misfortune of being visited by them. So, you should be convinced other Muslims won't take anything away from Malays (though, there have been ruthless Muslim conquerors in the past, but there must be many Malaysian conquerors too).

As for your statistics, Saudi Arabia spends greater percentage of its GDP on aid than the USA (and other Western countries which routinely default on their aid). Also another interesting link is:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/usa/2003/0626persuasion.htm - http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/usa/2003/0626per suasion.htm

utd4ever wrote: Perhaps, I become unMalay to be boostful. In many other areas than the apex of business, Malay Nationalism has been helpful in uplifting the ummah. Some only 30 odd years ago, we started the race from way behind and we have high percentage of poverty in our community. In education, we were some more than 100 years disadvantaged in our motherland. Things are way much better.

Allah alone makes people prosperous. For some, prosperity is a reward; for others, it is a test.

utd4ever wrote: I still pose the same repeated question: What model of Islamic state will help teh plight of the ummah in Malaysia? As far as meeting Mockba�s criteria of Islamic State, syariah law has long been carried out albeit without the hudud. (That�s your bullet). Our leaders are elected, not inherited. They are educated, experience and full time politicians.

First of all, we need to built the consensus and the will to unite among the Muslims. We will have to make sacrifices and adjustments, depending on the problems we face in future; and  Allah will show us the way, as He did to many other people in the past.

ZamanH

As Salaam Alaikum,

In my earlier post, I gave the wrong link. The intended link is:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0112/p04s01-wome.html - http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0112/p04s01-wome.html

Assalamualaikum

Lets not forget that my thread-setting post begins with the Islamic State vs Malay Nationalism debate in Malaysia, which is really stemming from politics.  Whatever the claim, it has not deviated from that. 

In the nutshell, my underlying message is to highlight that its not the labelling to the ideological �ism that determines the Islamness but its consistency with the spirit of  Islam and the result. Apart from mentioning of Dr Mahathir�s and Azhar�s Rector on Malaysia�s Islamic state status, the Islamic label and branding is irrelevent to me.

I highlight the inextricable link of Malay and Islam. The practise of ibadah and the high level of adab (behaviour and etiquette) in our culture is reflective of this claim. I boldly put forth that the success of  Malaysia as God�s will to the pragmatic and fine balancing act of �Malay Nationalism� ie achieving good governance, adhering to Islamic value, acculturing Islam and defending the ummah�s interest and development. 

Critique to my bold claim painted the same negative picture of Nationalism on Malay Nationalism. The refine Malay character was blatantly ignored. Some ill understood discrepencies was put forward, such as infering affirmative action as discrimination. Some fact put forth seem to come out from many of Time Warner�s media offices.  

Some argument were discomforting. It seems we Muslims have an obtuse obsession to talk of principle for principle sake, irrespective if it is detrimantal to the interest of the ummah. We  are so narrow and fanatic with our interpretation that we are prejudice to disbelieve that with creativity, conflicting interest can be balanced.   

I was not born yesterday to not know that repeated evil labelling of Nationalism, emphasis to refer to Quran and Hadith (without specifics), remark of �Islam is not a pastime�, etc, ultimately leads to discussion of Islamic statehood. An idea most associated with Hassan Al Banna�s and Syed Qutb�s Ikhwanul Muslimun. So I touched on Jamaluddin Al Afghani.

Scholars on the study of society long concluded that most of the thoughts on Islamic State are reactions to local problems without a holistic knowledge of the problems of the whole ummah.

But I look forward for that right models of modern Islamic state that is beneficial to the well being and akidah of the ummah. Yes I agree, we should strive for unity. (There is even a Forum for it ie the OIC. Unfortunately, it is another forum for the Arabs to carry their quarrels and bickering than pondering the plight of the ummah.) 

Someone refered me that a Quranic passage (17:70)  highlight good governance as non disriminatory, gender equality, rigths to other religion and democratic in nature. Malay Nationalism Malaysia fulfilled that, delivered the goods and Islam has flourished. Either we refuse to acknowledge due to minor discrepencies, perceived or real, or we learn from it.  

Till we move forward. Have a good weekend. Wassalam

utd4ever

PS  

Thank you ZamanH for highlighting prosperity is from Allah. For that matter, ilmu is from Allah too.

Mockba, I concur totally with your criticism on Islamic banking. We could talk futher on a different thread. But you should see economics in totality, not just banking, but to incorporate  the real-side and monetary side for a start.     

utd4ever wrote: Assalamualaikum

Walai Kum As Salaam

utd4ever wrote:  Some fact put forth seem to come out from many of Time Warner�s media offices.

What exactly do you mean??

utd4ever wrote: Some argument were discomforting.

Like??

utd4ever wrote: I was not born yesterday to not know that repeated evil labelling of Nationalism, emphasis to refer to Quran and Hadith (without specifics), remark of �Islam is not a pastime�, etc, ultimately leads to discussion of Islamic statehood. An idea most associated with Hassan Al Banna�s and Syed Qutb�s Ikhwanul Muslimun. So I touched on Jamaluddin Al Afghani.

I don't understand at all what you want to say. Most of the non-Muslims who convert to Islam are struck by the fact that Islam is practised as a way of life and not as a pastime (as they used to practise their religion). Separation of State and religion certainly relagates religion to be practised as a pastime.

utd4ever wrote: Scholars on the study of society long concluded that most of the thoughts on Islamic State are reactions to local problems without a holistic knowledge of the problems of the whole ummah.

Can you please elaborate on that??

I give up now. Your post contained so many insinuations and oblique references that I couldn't understand what you wanted to say. Will it be possible for you to be more forthright and sort of, more self-explanatory, when you write your posts.

ZamanH

Salaam Nausheen

Haven't seen such a posting for a few years. Islam shuns nationality or any other sovereignity than Human Rights.

Whisper wrote: Salaam Nausheen Haven't seen such a posting for a few years. Islam shuns nationality or any other sovereignity than Human Rights.

I concur. Nationalism has had terrible consequences for the Ummah. Every Muslim nation should put down its flag and pick up the Quran.

nationalism that was introduced to muslims by however was evil and is evil.

look at sudan

look at pakistan and bangladesh

look at the arabs fightin turks

kurds fightin everyone

as muslims, our allegiance should lie with islam, then islam, then islam and then islam and only islam.

nationalism takes away allegiance from the shahada to some man made constitution.

Not sure about nationalism, just that I meet many Moslems who put down ther Moslems like:

"Oh those Arabs they are....."

"Those Pakistanis are not good Moslems..."

As if the group represents the individual.

Many of these 'nation-state' boundaries were created during colonialism or post-colonialism. They are false boundries thay gives people wrong identities and focus on the wrong thing  We are all one world.  It does not do anyone any good if one area is doing well economically and another is going through terrible times.

Yes we need organization, local social, economical and political structures. But those should not be our identity as human beings. One problem, in my mind, is that we all seperate more from each other. We lose the inter-connectedness. With technology we should be more connected not less. Nationalism continues that divide.  

Hello & Salam:

Here is a flash presentation on the structural and institutional causes of war, based on the work of the sociologist C. Wright Mills (1916-1962). Very relevant to understanding the world scene and the International system today

http://war.asadi.org - http://war.asadi.org

Hello & Salam

For a moment I had thought this thread was for "N A T I O N A L I S M". After your Hello & Salam I am delightfully confused.

Hayfa

We are all one world.

Let's assume we are "one world" who or what should rule over that "oneness"? The problem with getting rid of nation-states is that the only other alternative is centralized world government which panders to a certain population and alienates the rest, so it becomes a autocracy. What should rule us all apart from the nation-state?