As'salamualaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

I understand there are many Muslimahs in the world who choose to wear the Hijab as some sort of religious identity or for chastity

Women in islam choose to wear Hijab since its a command of Allah {swt}, Its all with this spirit and enthusiasm that, we give priority in wearing hijab.

Of course to the non-muslim who is educated in western thinking, the look of the hijab or the niqaab is quite "frightening" and oppressive

Hijab and Niqaab are different. Hijab is to cover whole body {Except those mentioned to not to be covered } and niqaab is a facelift.  "Frightening and oppressive ----hmm i don't agree,  its only there misconception. Its there problem. But its our responsibilty to explain them and clear there doubts as a part of dawah.

But what is even more problematic is women within the Muslim tradition defining themselves based on clothing. The problem with some Muslim women considering themselves as "Hijabi warriors" or whatever seems to be a self-prescribed identification which is exactly the same as what feminist are doing to label our women.

 I can explain these points here but it would be better for me if u explain this point still clearly.

 A woman's chastity, or protection does not come from her hijab, that is a myth.

Its not at all a myth, but a fact.

Let me explain u here. I remember this example cited by Dr.Zakir Naik an eminent scholar. Suppose if two women equally beautiful walk down the street. One in islamic Hijaab i.e covered herself except face and hands upto the wrist and the other in her western dress code i.e Mini skirt or short and suppose if a ruffian  who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? Obviously the girl with the shorts. Whose chastity is protected here ?

I have an other experiment for u if u wish u try out or use ur logic. Take a sweet box. Cover half of it in an other box and leave the remaining open. Which part of the sweet will the flies sit over ? covered or uncovered? 

A woman with, or without hijab can be easily raped or sexually assaulted

This is the statistics i have:

United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got �bolder� in the following years.

I find that there are many women here online especially that constantly try to defend why they wear the Hijab and how safe they feel when wearing Hijab, yet, at the same time many Muslimah's would say the greatest protector is Allah.

 Every women who wears hijab considers herselves to be safe and every believer be it man or woman considers Allah as his greatest protector. Why do we lock our doors when leaving our homes? Allah is the greatest protector na. Its a sunnah to be cautious. There's a hadith regarding but i don't remember its narration properly so i drop in here..

O.K Coming to the point women wear hijab for the only reason that its a command from Allah. All these things that they are safe, feel protected etc are the positive effects of hijab.

seekshidayath wrote: A woman's chastity, or protection does not come from her hijab, that is a myth. Its not at all a myth, but a fact.

CORRECTION, it is a myth! 

It never ceases to amaze me how some muslim women keep mentioning this, that covering is some kind of protection from assault. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU ARE COVERED. 

Let me explain u here. I remember this example cited by Dr.Zakir Naik an eminent scholar. Suppose if two women equally beautiful walk down the street. One in islamic Hijaab i.e covered herself except face and hands upto the wrist and the other in her western dress code i.e Mini skirt or short and suppose if a ruffian  who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? Obviously the girl with the shorts. Whose chastity is protected here ?

When will some muslim women stopping using this or these kind of examples to prove the covering of hijab or niqib for protection. 

mmmm....i must do something wrong when i wear a singlet and shorts  i mean i don't have guys knocking down my door or tease me down the street  

I have an other experiment for u if u wish u try out or use ur logic. Take a sweet box. Cover half of it in an other box and leave the remaining open. Which part of the sweet will the flies sit over ? covered or uncovered?

Oh please! This example is quite unacceptable. And I will tell you now, that example you used is just the same as when the Australian sheik used uncovered meat left out in the street for cats and caused an uproar especially from muslims both men and women. 

A woman with, or without hijab can be easily raped or sexually assaulted This is the statistics i have: United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got �bolder� in the following years.

Statistics or not, It will not change the fact that being covered will not always protect you.

And every time this issue comes up and i know that a woman should protect herself i really do not dispute that, but at the same time, with muslim it points to the women's fault and showing the above examples as if it is fact when it is not! I don't know if this will ever change but that is what comes through loudly since I've been here. And it really is about time some issues of it or better the mindset to change.

As for western dress code/clothing, trying using long pants/jeans and long sleeve shirts or t.shirts and boots next time, or tracksuits. or scarf and woollen jumpers and gloves and hats in your so called examples. Stop resorting to mini skirts and shorts and singlets or bikinis as if that is all the west has!! Please. Get educated!    

I have noticed that a few muslims don't have that mindset and are in agreement that covering does not always protect and not always the woman's fault. 

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

CORRECTION, it is a myth!

Sorry its not correction, Its a hard fact for those people who do not  wear Hijab and oppose it.

It never ceases to amaze me how some muslim women keep mentioning this, that covering is some kind of protection from assault. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU ARE COVERED. 

Not at all, It does matter. Why don't u try it out once?  Or just inerview any of your friends, associates ---. Its certainly a protection from the evil eyes.

mmmm....i must do something wrong when i wear a singlet and shorts  i mean i don't have guys knocking down my door or tease me down the street  

Certainly, u must not be having guys knocking down your door or such, but r u saved from the those evil whispers going on in their hearts ? Howmuchever decent a person may look like or  pious he is, no person can gurantee from the evil whispers of satan.in his heart 

Oh please! This example is quite unacceptable. And I will tell you now, that example you used is just the same as when the Australian sheik used uncovered meat left out in the street for cats and caused an uproar especially from muslims both men and women. 

I did use this example especially with the word sweet. Women in Islam are considered to be delicate and precious.Women is an attractive creation. Be it her appearance ,  voice ----- her every act is attractive.  Look, do we not hide your valuables {Diamonds } in lockers or safes.

 Do u leave it as and where?Are u not cautious of it ? Certainly u will be?

Similarly women in ISLAM are considered PRECIOUS AND DELICATE. They are protected both from emotional and physical tortures. They are not suppressed.

Statistics or not, It will not change the fact that being covered will not always protect you

Why don't u present any statistics if u have with u ? Will the risk of covering  is more than uncovered?

Stop resorting to mini skirts and shorts and singlets or bikinis as if that is all the west has!! Please. Get educated!  

I also presented a women who is in hijab walking at the other side, in the same western country. We do have there women dressed modestly. Alhamdullilah

I din 't say that west has all that. Do they wear any dress that covers themselves fully except cloves and face ? what kind of dress do they wear ? Pls let me know.

I have noticed that a few muslims don't have that mindset and are in agreement that covering does not always protect and not always the woman's fault. 

But the risk if uncovered is more?

Lets get into a discussion not a debate.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Israfil wrote: Salaam, I strongly feel our women shouldn't have to define their religious convictions based upon what they wear nor they should be compelled to explain.

Wa'alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu

I totally agree, we should only define our religion with the laws given to us by our Most Merciful Lord. In this particular case, anybody who chooses to cover herself is solely doing it for the pleasure of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Protection im not too sure about, i have seen men staring at a girl with niqab, by that i dont mean stare of hate by western men these days, muslim brothers in a muslim populated country. And also seen protection part as no girls in hijab gets asked out in this western society. People know what she is representing and it does work as a shield. But the main thing is obeying the command of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

There was a research being done recently which shows that prostrating reduces the risk of brain and spinal tumour. So what are we going to label our prayer with now?

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does say in Holy Quran that women should cover up to protect her chastity. This is to make her more dignified, give her status of a human being. Her character, intelligence, personality should be more important than her looks. This is because Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala knows nature of His creation. He knows that more powerful always finds ways to manipulate things according to his liking. In this case, the western market is an open example for that, these days they cant even sell a car with out an almost naked lady next to it.

wassalam

seekshidayath wrote: CORRECTION, it is a myth! Sorry its not correction, Its a hard fact for those people who do not  wear Hijab and oppose it.

shows how much you need to learn.

You think I don't know what i am talking about or can't handle the facts.

Why can't you handle the fact that being covered does not always protect you.

Again it is a myth to think and believe that being covered is protection from assault.

It never ceases to amaze me how some muslim women keep mentioning this, that covering is some kind of protection from assault. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU ARE COVERED.  Not at all, It does matter. Why don't u try it out once?  Or just inerview any of your friends, associates ---. Its certainly a protection from the evil eyes.

What makes you think I haven't ?? or know others??

I think it is quite presumptous and inconsiderate of you or anyone to say something like that, how do you know you are not talking to someone who may have been assaulted and was fully clothed ???. It's nothing but an insult. So please do not ask "why don't you try it out once"! BECAUSE YOU MAY NEVER KNOW WHO YOU ARE TALKING TO! 

And very importantly, if someone slips you a drug of some sort, especially those date rape drugs, then being covered will not protect since you will be out of it, the guy can undress you and do whatever he wants! SO don't tell me that being covered gives you protection from assault!

And NO I do not need to interview anyone, I KNOW it is a fact and it doesn't matter if you are covered.

Actually being covered gives more to the imagination than not being covered, it leaves one to wonder what is underneath & what they look like, when one sees skin often it becomes a bit boring and unimagiantive.

You know something, if i went to the ME i would cover up, because i wouldn't trust the men. The men there or at least in some parts don't get to see skin often, and become a bit enthusatic especially with white skin. Nor would i want to be left alone.

ummmm....i must do something wrong when i wear a singlet and shorts  i mean i don't have guys knocking down my door or tease me down the street   Certainly, u must not be having guys knocking down your door or such, but r u saved from the those evil whispers going on in their hearts ? Howmuchever decent a person may look like or  pious he is, no person can gurantee from the evil whispers of satan.in his heart

As I pointed out above, being covered can leave much to the imagination so don't think that because you are covered you are saved from those evil whispers going on in their hearts.

Oh please! This example is quite unacceptable. And I will tell you now, that example you used is just the same as when the Australian sheik used uncovered meat left out in the street for cats and caused an uproar especially from muslims both men and women.  I did use this example especially with the word sweet.

so that's suppose to make it alright then, using the word sweet ???

Women in Islam are considered to be delicate and precious.Women is an attractive creation. Be it her appearance ,  voice ----- her every act is attractive.  Look, do we not hide your valuables {Diamonds } in lockers or safes. Do u leave it as and where?Are u not cautious of it ? Certainly u will be? Similarly women in ISLAM are considered PRECIOUS AND DELICATE. They are protected both from emotional and physical tortures. They are not suppressed.

I never said not to protect yourself, did I ??

Statistics or not, It will not change the fact that being covered will not always protect you Why don't u present any statistics if u have with u ? Will the risk of covering  is more than uncovered?

As I mentioned, statistics or not.....

Stop resorting to mini skirts and shorts and singlets or bikinis as if that is all the west has!! Please. Get educated!   I also presented a women who is in hijab walking at the other side, in the same western country. We do have there women dressed modestly. Alhamdullilah I din 't say that west has all that. Do they wear any dress that covers themselves fully except cloves and face ? what kind of dress do they wear ? Pls let me know.

I just gave you a bit of a list of clothes in previous post. The clothes vary BUT it's not all shorts, mini skirts and bikinis.

I have noticed that a few muslims don't have that mindset and are in agreement that covering does not always protect and not always the woman's fault.  But the risk if uncovered is more?

I'm not getting into this is more or less such and such, it is quite irrevelent here on this issue.

Lets get into a discussion not a debate.

A discussion where i agree that being covered always protects you, no thanks  

I speak from experience and observation.

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Israfil wrote: I strongly feel our women shouldn't have to define their religious convictions based upon what they wear nor they should be compelled to explain.

I will agree too.

I know in some religions there is a dress code,(not forgetting islam   ) but religion is much more than that. I don't think the Amish lets their dress code define them.

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

Salaams and Bismillah,

Brother Israfil.  Not meaning to enter this debate, but to answer your question.  Although, really at first I have to ask that Seekshadith not post any of that uncovered candy garbage again.  Just go back and read what a fool that sheikh in Austraila made of himself and how the good Muslims fired him for uttering such foolish comments.

My opinion is that good behavior is governed by our hearts, men and women.  Covering up for men and women helps the weaker ones of us or those who are feeling weak in faith during tough times.  Because the really strong avert our gazes, right?  So covering isn't scary, it's fine.  And uncovering in and of itself isn't scary either.  The culture of uncovering does encourage promiscuity more than the culture of coverning and modest clothing.

Still, true, sincere modesty comes from the heart first, which governs our actions.  ISA we can encourage one another to improve on this to have a varied, but strong Islaamic community that interacts with each other and the rest of the world based on respect and reverence for life.

If covering made women "safer" then women in hijab could walk down the streets of any country at any time of night and be safe. We know that is not true. If you are a woman do you not also lock your house and car doors? Do you avoid going out at certain times? Why is that?  Because there are some men out there who are predators. Predators value hurting people, some especially women. How you dress does NOT protect you.

Hijab can to a degree protect you from certain types of stares but it does not protect you from violence.  In the United States well over half of assaults on women are perpetrated by someone they know, not the stranger out of the bushes.  So it if often done by predators with the opportunity to hurt someone.

And in many Moslem countries one cannot get accurate statistics for assault as for many women they will be accused of zina if they report a rape so many do keep silent. Though to a degree if you live in a more gender segregated society there are fewer opportunities one could say but then most of the violence is perpetrated by the men in their lives (same as here) which these women will be in contact with again. Would that not be worse?

Israfil, I think you are right in that we tend to want to define women especially by the way they dress. It is true of women all over.. maybe it is the pettiness that we tend to define our lives. It is truly a waste of time.. but we engage in it anyways..

In a way, some may wear it sort of as a �statement.� But really no one can really know can we? I guess it goes along with presuming motivation onto people.  

Wow,

Hey guys please don't fight here, this is serious to me!

I respect brother Seek for his point of view, and though we don't agree please let us refrain from draining our emotions here. I definitely understand some of the point of views here that I will definitely address in length tomorrow. For the time being allow me to let you all ponder what my intention was when I said that "the protection of hijab is a myth."

When I said that I mean that although we know that Muslim women who wear "Islamic clothing" known through their style of garb and what not. Of course women in Muslim dominated countries who wear Hijab or Niqaab are known by other women and know that non-married men are not supposed to gaze at Muslimahs. Yes we all KNOW this.

But the problem is not our knowledge it is our action.!!!!!!

A rapist knows (at least one who is rational and can differentiate between right and wrong) possibly knows rape is wrong but does it because of some sick distorted lust to dominate and oppress a woman. Using American statistics does not prove that women in Hijab are any safer than a woman who carries a taser in her purse. The Hijab as I see it is a symbol of a woman's religious convictions. But because there are some men out there that are predators they don't care about that symbol they only care about their loins. I pray to God I never see a man take advantage of a woman in my life time!

I know for many Muslimahs they feel protect by the Hijab and that is fine. But there is none to protect you except the Creator. I know many women personally who have been raped. I know Muslimahs who have been raped. Like Sister Herjihad said we are defined not by the external parts of ourselves but by our hearts and our actions. That is what God desires and that is in our nature. I hope my explanation helps....Feel free to bicker when I leave...LOL J/k

Salaam,

I'm back to post additional statements as promised.......

I'll respond individually to you all (those that addressed me) those of you who I respond to are in bold.

seekshidayath you said:

Assalamu Alaikum,

1. Modest dress code, with or without face cover, is obligatory in Islam. It is of paramount importance to dress this way, particularly in these times, when there is an ongoing global effort to curtail the rights of Muslim women who wish to willingly practice it. It is also a way of dawah. People see that by wearing modest dress, Muslim women defend their faith.

2. Two of the pillars of Islam, prayers and hajj, can not be performed without modest dress.

3. If someone is raped, the rapist should be punished, and is punished in Islam, regardless of the dress of the victim. But, from Islamic point of view, by dressing immodestly, one is not helping in making the society safer from such violent acts that are routinely done against women; one is rather being part of the problem. Islam expects every Muslim or Muslimah in the society to become part of the solution, and not the part of the problem.

4. While modest dress code may not prevent one from being molested or raped, its practice, compared to that of "immodest dress code," can significantly protect the honor of women. But, that is just one advantage, and there may be many other benefits that only Allah knows.

024.030
YUSUFALI: Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
PICKTHAL: Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.
SHAKIR: Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.

024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Just a little point brother israfil, you are taking my point slightly out of context. i mentioned Hijab working as a shield only in few cases like that of a guy approaching you for chit chat or whatever. I dint mean it would protect against a twisted psycho. Thats why i put my doubt of whether it works as a protection, before the protection side.

End of the day Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has enjoined this upon us so first and foremost it is for obedience of our dear Lord and there is hikmah and many thousands blessing in each hukm of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

wassalam

Brother Peacemaker just one point to address from what you stated:

So even if a woman who dresses immodestly is she partially at fault for being raped? I mean, that would be insensitive to say tha wouldn't it? I'm capable of committing murder and if someone kills a member of my family I have the choice to commit murder but because I choose to retaliate does that make me a victim of what I was previously feeling? No. The law will not see me as a victim it will punish me although the sentencing would be decided if the act was premiditated or not. The point clearly is that yes Islamic dress code is to observed but my point is that we shouldn't define ourselves by what we wear as we seem to have been doing. This has not been discussed

Last night I was waiting for a bus. I was dressed in a coat and scarf. Some guy kept trying to talk to me asking me if I want to go out for a drink, go out for a beer... My modest dress did NOTHING to prevent this harassment.

Some people have been raised or been allowed to think that women can be treated poorly solely because they are women.

I am not arguing with modest dress by any means. There are many, many valuable components to is, both for the individual and society as a whole.

Modest dressing is just one, of many, aspects of being a Moslem that helps create a proper and healthy society. When other aspects are not functioning properly or negative aspects are tolerated or ignored, modest dress is a rather a flimsy way to uphold society. Unfortunately, all of this focus on women's dress keeps us from addressing other major aspects of society that are in dis-function or dis-array.  

A greater question is why are not Moslems not able to act with good intentions, honor, integrity, honesty, respect and kindness? We have been given the gift of Islam and yet we cannot see and do appropriately... 

It is men and women who must look at themselves and change or else however many clothes women wear will be fairly irrelevant in my humble opinion.

Peace

As'salamualaikum,

When women appear-ahem! actually are being hidden behind clothing they are in the intellectual world, not respected in the way a man is respected when he walks in the room. A lot of what we have seen in the world about the clothing Muslimah's wear is the result of Arab influence in Islam. Culturally, women are "to be seen but not heard" much like the children in the U.S. Women walk behind men...Women sit in the back seat in cars behind men....Women are not allowed to drive.......Women don't get paid same as men....But, unfortunately years and years of feding women this garbage has convinced many of them that this is equality and it's not.

Lets start up a new thread for this discussion. I would love to discuss it.

Ask the women in Iraq or Iran or women in North Africa if, when they walk amongst testosterome-controlled men do they feel safe or are they thinking about the eyes watching them?

This opinion of yours is competely been under the influence of western media , yes i mention again its WESTERN MEDIA who always showed women there as supressed. Did they show taliban giving money to all those families wherein women came out to work, though they stopped them. No they did n't why will they?  Its a complete misconception. WOMEN ARE SAFE WHEN IN HIJAB RATHER THAN BEING UNCOVERED.

It's so easy to use th United States as a litmus test for morality.....Guess what? What about Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia they probably don't even keep statistics and if they did, guess who tracts the stats? Men do so do you think they'd report something that makes them look bad? Rape happens everyday and most often it goes unreported

I considered this stats as was backed by so called worlds no:1 investigative team FBI. 
How can u say that rape happens everyday i those countries? I would agree with Afghanistan since we have still westenerners army troops there. A sad plight.

So even if a woman who dresses immodestly is she partially at fault for being raped? I mean, that would be insensitive to say tha wouldn't it?
Br. here this women is inviting the lust and her own destruction by wearing such dress code. Comeon look at me , how beautiful am! - her immodest dress thus, invites them.

Am just posting two posts at the other thread of niqab_ummi - probably its on veling. I request israfil and co to pls go thru them.

I'm capable of committing murder and if someone kills a member of my family I have the choice to commit murder but because I choose to retaliate does that make me a victim of what I was previously feeling? No. The law will not see me as a victim it will punish me although the sentencing would be decided if the act was premiditated or not.

Are you speaking of islamic law here. If so u are mistaken. You are not a victim here in islam

If am not wrong, Israfil & co says that there is no relationship  between faith and action {deeds}.
Faith which is realised in our hearts flows thru tounge  and is implemented thru our actions. We love Allah ta'ala in our hearts , testify  thru tougue  and with our actions and thus implement our faith. Its the love and fear of Allah that we implement our faith to actions.
A PERSON CANNOT BE DEFINED IF HE KEEPS HIS BELIEFS  WITHIN HIS HEART NOR CAN HE BE DEFINED IF HE DOES A SHOW-OFF. WITHOUT AL-IKHLAAS {ACCEPTANCE}.
To be defined he must combine both his faith and deed in to action. 
Verse 125 of Al-Nisa  says "who is better in religion than he who surrenders his purpose to Allah while doing good". So a woman in islam submits herselves to the command of Allah.

Coming to the other main point which is under discussion - Hijab as a protection is  myth - as u all consider.
Here i would like to revive that its not a myth since she's under protection though not 100% safe. When a woman sets out without a mahram, she's always at risk. But if she's covered she's at less risk than being uncovered. Thats the reason why, islam asks woman not to set our unnecessarily. Othewise she would face as Hafya did. If at all a woman has such necessity or urgency , she shud move out in a hijab.  Sis Hafya was in hijab, so her risk was minimised. Now if at all woman there are facing such problems while in hijab its just because of the unknown hatred  for muslims there. Feel happy that u are facing such since u are representing islam. And you are unduly rewarded too. This uneasiness is common and can be tolerated. Pls go thru Ridley's post.
Thats all i have for today. Whatever u consider it "AN UNCOVERED GARBAGE" OR whatever ur standard of minds speaks of.
And Hanan its your misconception that i lowered woman. Ahhhhhhh how can i regrade that woman in islam who was loved by our Prophet sallal lahu alaihi wasallam., and that woman of whom Allah ta'ala has revealed so many verses. I too belong to a religion wherein she 's given the best position.
I thank peacemaker for his post which boosted up my spirits otherwise i was just following my signature.
And israfil, i would really love to discuss with you always if this tone of discussion is continued. 

Salaams and Bismillah,

It vitalizes our Islam to be Muslim "from within", and complements it to be so without. If we are not Muslim from within in, then we aren't Muslim!

My nephew was raped by his scout troop leader.  He wasn't dressed sexily, now was he?  The idea that a person is made safer by clothing is the reason that would-be attackers use themselves in their own sick, twisted minds for hurting someone. 

In other words, there is no reason for someone to be attacked.  It is always cruel and evil and unlawful.  It is always unlawful in Islaam and western society.  And if a child is underage, the punishment is especially severe in American law.

Seeks, you are wrong.  And women from Muslim countries do get attacked, and by people who are Mahram and non-Mahram to them.  The statistics aren't there for the reasons stated above by someone else. 

 Sister Hayfa is right that where we are is a very important element to our safety.  And II'm sorry that you have to go through that, Dear Sister.  May Allah, The Provider, make it easier for you.

Back to what defines us:  Where we are and what we do also contribute to this definition.  Whether we internalize it or not is up to us, but others will define us based on these things surely. 

A big part of our moral and ethical definition is what we do and how we react in tough situations.  When someone weaker is threatened in front of us, will we defend them or find reasons in our minds not to?  Will we remember in times of depression that Allah, SWT, may test us with difficult times, but that we do have the ability to pull through and be productive mentally, physically and spiritually if we just get through that particular tough time the best we can.

Seek,

Your post although extensive there were something's I'd like to discuss in length but I don't want to take up much of the attention. It appears we are see-sawing back and forth regarding the clothing issue. When I make a statement if everytime you say "You are under the influence of Western Media" then how can we have a dialogue?

Another problem when conversing with other Muslims especially those against american policies or generally against American society when criticizing their world they say "you are wrong you are under the influence of Western media" I mean, aren't we all somewhat influenced by our collective communities? I mean, I doubt Al-Jazeera is any more objective than CNN but that is besides the point.

I think you sir are seriously mistaken when you say that I'm under the influence of Western Media when  say rape happens in Muslim countries. Look, if men rape other men (both figuratively and literally) then what makes you think other men don't rape women?

There is a slight dellusion for the individual who feels that there is no problems in their country especially if they are involved in the political affairs of the world. Again, my original point was to show that women who define themselves by the xternal portions of themselves, meaning, their clothing then they are doing the same labeling as those who misunderstand Islam are doing....

As'salamualaikum,

Herijad and Israfil, went thru few articles today, and yes i agree that  even in muslim dominated countries such nuiscance is happening. Its a sad plight that even those people who know the rules {shareeaah} that would beautify and results in welfare & peace of a society,  break up.

Let me clear, that i did n't say hafya was wrong. Infact i said that since she was in her scarf so it minimised the risk.

Complete �hijaab�, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of �hijaab� of the clothes is observing �hijaab� in a limited sense. �Hijaab� of the clothes should be accompanied by �hijaab� of the eyes, �hijaab� of the heart, �hijaab� of thought and �hijaab� of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Just imagine if this punishment is introduced then will not the rate get reduced?

And sir, let me tell u i don't trust the media very much. For example here in India, at a place Gujrat, whatever happened not even  2 % of it shown to us.Men were burnt and women massely raped.They were killed then What could they do. Neither there inner or outer appearance did work. Or whatever has happened in Bosnia -- these are exceptions. And the media here be it even daily newspapers did n't cover , except  few papers which were owned by muslims. And when, people migrated from Gujrat to our place, only did we knew all that in detail. And believe me those people were not lieing. How can 100s of people lie altogether.After listening to t hem every eye did flow tears. Even now i grudge the man and his party responsible and feel like to just smash him. What i mean to say that media speaks of dominated people only.  There are very few probably countable in single digits only who show the true picture.
I mentioned western media though i knew few channels who really show the true picture, i did not want to mention those two names who always suppress islam. For example take the case of Taliban. When we hear this word we imagine brutal men trying to impose those rules but the inner story is completely different. Earlier i used to hate them but now i hate those who hate Taliban.   If u had gone thru the story of Ridley as how she embraced islam and her views before and after islam , u will get an idea of media's influence over our minds.Though its not possible for all of us to go there in Afghanistan and see whats happening ---

Again, my original point was to show that women who define themselves by the xternal portions of themselves, meaning, their clothing then they are doing the same labeling as those who misunderstand Islam are doing....
We need a labeling Israfil. Its needed. Apart from faith, it brings trust too. For example i would not like to listen  to a sermon of a lady who is half naked. I would trust a lady who is in hijab. Since the first thought on a common man when sees both of them is this lady is religious and she is not. Though its the faith within heart thats accounted but appearance is also needed {And this appearance shud be intended only for the sake of Allah only}, I would like to learn from the one who is religious and does follow her religion. I refers to a common man. Just think over it. I know a case wherein a woman from London get married to a Pakistani, but this man was n't religious. This lady was very much intrrested in Islam and she after a long search preferred to meet a lady amongst a group of ladies {Most of them without hijab}, She met the one who was in hijab and discussed of islam and within few weeks embraced islam. Did the label not work out here?
What type of labelling does a person who misunderstands islam do? I did n't understand that.
Lets try our best to follow islam completely and thus influence. If the driver is not learnt we cannot blame the car for accidents na. Lets learn and teach people thru our acts to drive , as we are been blessed by  the best model and best service car. Happy Driving.
Am extremely sorry for all those whom i hurted in this process of  posts, but i just led my opinions.

Israfil wrote: Brother Peacemaker just one point to address from what you stated: So even if a woman who dresses immodestly is she partially at fault for being raped? I mean, that would be insensitive to say tha wouldn't it? I'm capable of committing murder and if someone kills a member of my family I have the choice to commit murder but because I choose to retaliate does that make me a victim of what I was previously feeling? No. The law will not see me as a victim it will punish me although the sentencing would be decided if the act was premiditated or not. The point clearly is that yes Islamic dress code is to observed but my point is that we shouldn't define ourselves by what we wear as we seem to have been doing. This has not been discussed

Assalamu Alaikum,

Brother, in my humble opinion, I can not make any judgement, regardless of her dress, on a Sister who has been raped, who already, I think, has been hurt in such an inhumane way. I can only pray for her well being here and hereafter; besides this opinion of mine, I think that her case should be determined by the judge that would depend on many factors such as if Shariah law is the law of the land. If she was wearing immodest dress, all I can say that she was not wearing proper Islamic dress at the time the incident took place that can easily be verified by looking at Qur�anic verses; I will quote more below besides those posted in my last post.

Qur�an: 007.026
YUSUFALI: O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition!
PICKTHAL: O Children of Adam! We have revealed unto you raiment to conceal your shame, and splendid vesture, but the raiment of restraint from evil, that is best. This is of the revelations of Allah, that they may remember.
SHAKIR: O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.

Qur�an: 033.059
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.