Men acts and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at. This determines not only most relations between men and women but also the relation of women to themselves � John Berger.

The western society has used nudity to oppress its own public and those they have enslaved in the name of �liberation and modernity�. The idea of using the naked form to humiliate and denigrate is a common thread running through various groups within western society, which shows their behaviour such as their naked brutality in Iraqi and Israeli prisons.

The more subtle form of the use of nakedness as a tool for subjugating and controlling a particular group is to be found with western oppression of women. They�re far from �liberated� as the western propagandists wish Muslim women to believe. In th West, there are several economical usage of exploiting women � They�re used to sell almost everything from shampoo to luxury cars. The use of female nudity in popular culture generates an atmosphere which a particular role and image of women develops � that�s the women are good for; dancing, half naked on music videos, draping half naked over car bonnets in car shows, appearing on billboard posters, being �cover girls� on men�s magazines and enticing cinema goers to see new Hollywood releases.

Rehmat,

Salams, I agree.. I live in a Western influenced nation, and don't most of us, now days??  Your point is an understatement.

Salams

unity1 wrote: Well,I do agree that in the Western Culture,women are used as an entertainment product but even over their I have noticed that their are several ladies and women who care much about their dignity and reputation as the women of Muslim Countries does.

"Several ladies" out of 278 million people in the US!

I have lived in California, Los Angeles ,where Hollywood is situated, even their I have not seen such shameless acts as people in the Muslim Countries unfortunately think...

After living 35 years withing western society - I think I could have better idea what is going on!

I have noticed that both West and Muslims have misconceptions about each other and media has played a great role in creating this misconception

The West always have ignorance of the East, especially Islam and Muslims - but the people outside the West have learned the 'true nature' of the West after living under their colonization for centuries.

IslamicGirl wrote:

 Smile,i am also with u...the issue includes wide dimension...

Suleyman wrote: I am with UNity...

You mean 'Islamic Unity (Ummah)' - or that you have nothing to add to the discussion!

Wa Salaam.

Living in a western country, I do agree that there is a very low standard of morality when it comes to just about everything, including dressing.  Even girls as young as 8 can be seen wearing pants/skirts/shorts down to their pubic bone and tops that barely cover anything. 

What I find so curious is that this mode of dress is accepted here but people are horrified when they see someone like me, completely covered!!!!  It makes no sense.  How can it be that practically nude girls and women draw no unusual response but a hijabi sends them into fits of rage and disdain?

Before I became a Muslim, my life experience was flooded with encounters with men who could only look at my chest, not my face (I am not talking boyfriends, I am talking about regular encounters in public places).  I never dressed improperly, so my clothes did not draw this response.  When I started wearing hijab I was absolutely blown away to find men (those who didn't turn away in disdain from a Muslim) actually treating me like a human being, even looking at my face when I spoke.  This was a whole new experience for me.  Finally, peace through Islam, al hamdu lilah!

Peace, ummziba.

Rehmat wrote: Suleyman wrote: I am with UNity... You mean 'Islamic Unity (Ummah)' - or that you have nothing to add to the discussion! Wa Salaam.

 I am also with u

 Take care my brother,

Suleyman wrote: ...I am also with U

You know what brother? You could be the best 'moderate Muslim prime minister of Turkey' - who would be acceptable to all - US, Israel and the Kemalist military.

Rehmat wrote: Suleyman wrote: ...I am also with U You know what brother? You could be the best 'moderate Muslim prime minister of Turkey' - who would be acceptable to all - US, Israel and the Kemalist military.

 hmmm...is it good or bad?,i remembered the ayat below;i don't think that i did not say any of a word fitting to this ayat;i am not an hypocrite;insh'Allah...also i am in the black list of the army...may be he made an compare with the prime ministers of Turkey really fitting to this ayat...i wish Allah will all protect us to astraying from the principles of the Qur'an.

068.009
YUSUFALI: Their desire is that thou shouldst be pliant: so would they be pliant.

Suleyman[...hmmm...is it good or bad.....[/Quote wrote: First of all - Hmmmmmm is

First of all - Hmmmmmm is my 'Trade Mark' on some other sites. Some IDs would attest to that.

I used to admire brother Recep Tayyip Erdogan when he was Mayor of Istanbul for his good Islamic credentials. However, after becoming prime minister � it seems he has lost his perception. For example, during his current visit to Norway � he said: ''we regret to see negative attitudes against Turkish and Muslim people in some European countries recently. It is impossible to understand such attitudes against Turks and Muslims in a period when the world focuses on dialogue among different civilizations and cultures.''

I think his info. Was not wrong � but then he made the remark which show his total ignorance of European history � or maybe his �obedience� to his �Kemalist masters�:

The EU is not a Christian club. It is the outcome of compromise among civilizations. The EU is a whole of political values - Hmmmmmm.

Rehmat wrote: After living 35 years withing western society - I think I could have better idea what is going on!

Did you ever get out thou?  

Rehmat, in your orignal post, you generalise way too much. And another thing America does not equal the West! nor does the West equal America!

Ummziba, your experience does not equate that everyone does that, my experience is that I can wear shorts and shirt or singlets and i get treated respectful and as a human being.

I am with Unity1, I agree with her/him.

Angel wrote: Rehmat wrote: After living 35 years withing western society - I think I could have better idea what is going on! Did you ever get out thou?

Yes - As a matter of fact I did go to your home-country - Israel in 1996.

Angel wrote: Rehmat, in your orignal post, you generalise way too much. And another thing America does not equal the West! nor does the West equal America!

Are you saying that the vast majority of Americans are not decendents of European settlers? And how about, that Zionist prime minister of Israel wrote in his biography - "Israel may be situated in the Middle East, but we are European in every sense....?"

But then the 'West' could be out of European - or all Europeans could be Khazars - like the European Jew settlers in Palestine.

unity1 wrote: Asalam Aalaikum Yes it is true that Americans are the descendants of the Europeans but that doesnot mean that they will be equal to other Europeans in every aspect. Take the example of Bani Isreal(Children of Isreal) who were the descendants of Isaac(pbuh)the youngest son of Ibrahim(pbuh) and majority of the Prophets excluding Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) came from the linage of Isaac(pbuh) does it mean that the Children of Isreal(Bani Isreal) were equal to the Prophets who came from the linage of Isaac(pbuh) in nature and quality?

I have studied, and Malcolm X also taught, that those who we call Jews today are actually from Europe and are converts to the Hewbrew Israelite relgion. Their native language is Yiddish, but they adopted Hebrew, after Musa brought them out of a savage condition in Europe. Malcolm used to say that this is a history that they do not want the people to know, because they usurped the birthright of the original Hewbrew Israelites, like Yacub usurped the birthright of his brother. Now they call themselves "The Chosen People", but they really usurped that title and they don't want it known.

One of the problems that the Muslim world has, is that they divide Europe into nations and view them as different. But when one looks throughout history, ones sees Europe acting as a single been being, with a united purpose.

21:96. Even when Gog and Magog are let loose and they sally forth from every elevated place.

unity1 wrote: Yes it is true that Americans are the descendants of the Europeans but that doesnot mean that they will be equal to other Europeans in every aspect

White Americans are descendants of European - just like the White settlers in Australia and New Zealand - the later too destroyed the Native societies by butchery - which is a 'hallmark' of European history.

No two brothers can be equal in every sense - That's the law of nature. However, the Americans, thanks to its European crime Mafia - has even exelled itself over Europe.

Take the example of Bani Isreal(Children of Isreal) who were the descendants of Isaac(pbuh)the youngest son of Ibrahim(pbuh) and majority of the Prophets excluding Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) came from the linage of Isaac(pbuh) does it mean that the Children of Isreal(Bani Isreal) were equal to the Prophets who came from the linage of Isaac(pbuh) in nature and quality?

Sorry dear, could not get your point here - except that the 'Banu Israel' took their name from prophet Yakoob (Jacob) whose second name was 'Israel'.

Americans have no culture like Europeans thats because they are not the original Europeans, they are the mixture of different races of Europe.

I would not like to insult the 287 million Americans - However, the first European settlers, both in Americana and Australia were British convict and thugs. 

If you visit London for few months and then visit USA for few months, you will see some great differences, in London Girls and Boys are more open to romance and sex then Americans.

Are you saying that the Brits. have more homosexuals and lesbians than the US? The US has 28-30 million of them.

Wa Salaam.

blond wrote: I have studied, and Malcolm X also taught, that those who we call Jews today are actually from Europe and are converts to the Hewbrew Israelite relgion. Their native language is Yiddish, but they adopted Hebrew, after Musa brought them out of a savage condition in Europe. Malcolm used to say that this is a history that they do not want the people to know, because they usurped the birthright of the original Hewbrew Israelites, like Yacub usurped the birthright of his brother. Now they call themselves "The Chosen People", but they really usurped that title and they don't want it known.

According to various European historians - 90% of European and American Jewry is descendents of Mongol Khazars. They don't belong to the 10-12 Tribes of 'Banu Israel'.

That the Khazars are the lineal ancestors of Eastern European Jewry is a historical fact. Jewish historians and religious text books acknowledge the fact, though the propagandists of Jewish nationalism belittle it as pro-Arab propaganda. Somewhat ironically, Volume IV of the Jewish Encyclopedia - because this publication spells Khazars with a "C" instead of a "K" - is titled "Chazars to Dreyfus": and it was the Dreyfus trial, as interpreted by Theodor Herzl, that made the modern Jewish Khazars of Russia forget their descent from converts to Judaism and accept anti-Semitism as proof of their Palestinian origin.

For all that anthropologists know, Hitler's ancestry might go back to one of the ten Lost Tribes of 'Israel'; while Weizmann may be a descendant of the Khazars, the converts to Judaism who were in no anthropological respect related to Palestine. The home to which Weizmann, Silver and so many other Ashkenazim Zionists have yearned to return has most likely never been theirs. "Here's a paradox, a paradox, a most ingenious paradox": in anthropological fact, many Christians may have much more Hebrew-'Israelite' blood in their veins than most of their Jewish neighbors.

One of the problems that the Muslim world has, is that they divide Europe into nations and view them as different. But when one looks throughout history, ones sees Europe acting as a single been being, with a united purpose.

Not correct. Europeans have always divided and murdering each other throughout their history. The recent example are - WW I & 2, French Revolution, Russian Revolution, and breakdown of Yugoslavia, etc.

They were only UNITED during their 'holy crusades' against the Saracens (Muslim Arabs).

Rehmat wrote: They were only UNITED during their 'holy crusades' against the Saracens (Muslim Arabs).

I do not believe that you are completely correct. They were united in many other activities than Crusades.

• The African Slave Trade
• Decemating the Native American Indians
• And now, reducing the world population of the Dark nations.

blond wrote: I do not believe that you are completely correct. They were united in many other activities than Crusades. The African Slave Trade Decemating the Native American Indians And now, reducing the world population of the Dark nations.

1. Slave trade - European slave trade was not limited to Africans. The Jews were known to be involved in White slave trade too - Supplying little kids and beautiful women to Ottoman elites.

2. European 'decemating' is also not limited to Native American Indians. They did the same thing to Native Australian Indians - Are currently doing it to Native Palestinian Arabs.

3. That's an anti-Semitic remark. My ancestors from Kashmir are much 'whiter' than any European, especially the Sicilians.

Rehmat wrote: 1. Slave trade - European slave trade was not limited to Africans. The Jews were known to be involved in White slave trade too - Supplying little kids and beautiful women to Ottoman elites. 2. European 'decemating' is also not limited to Native American Indians. They did the same thing to Native Australian Indians - Are currently doing it to Native Palestinian Arabs. 3. That's an anti-Semitic remark. My ancestors from Kashmir are much 'whiter' than any European, especially the Sicilians.

I think you just like to fight.

• The African Slave Trade, was limited to Africans
• The genocide of Native Amercans was limited to Native Amercans

Feel free to add any others you want. But I was specific, not general.

Colin wrote: I think you'll also find that Muslim Arabs were big players in the African slave trade, and long before the evil westerners got in on the act.

I agree.

This is a fact.

And, also it is a reason why many Blacks reject Islam.

Colin wrote: I don't know if it's true but I have also read that during inter-tribal wars, particularly in West Africa, it was traditional for the victors to take slaves as a form of war booty.

Ever read Roman or Greek history? How you suppose they used to deal with their defeated enemies - Oops, Slaves?

And did I mention how the Christian Serbs and Croats treated their Muslim victims - especially the women? According to western reports - some 60,000 Muslim women were raped by Serbs and Croats.

blond wrote: ....I think you just like to fight. The African Slave Trade, was limited to Africans The genocide of Native Amercans was limited to Native Amercans Feel free to add any others you want. But I was specific, not general.

I could but this board would not have the capacity to take all those stories of European slave victims - 100,000/year in the US; 3000/year in Israel, etc.

Oh by the way - I way NOT scared of your 'Bold WMDs'.

Colin wrote: I think you'll also find that Muslim Arabs were big players in the African slave trade, and long before the evil westerners got in on the act.

YEP, Muslim Arabs went to Africa before the Christian Roman. Hell, which history books I had been reading!

Angel wrote: Did you ever get out thou?

Although I haven't been out of my country. I have seen the behaviour of Western tourists. When they visit beaches in Kerala or Goa, they stroll around semi-naked (some of them naked) in the beaches. If you visit beaches elsewhere in India which are not frequented by the Westerners, Indians don't behave in the same way. Also, the WEstern tourists behave exactly in the same way as ukhti Ummziba had described the behaviour of her countrymen. Government, here, tolerates them because they bring in lots of money.

Angel wrote: And another thing America does not equal the West! nor does the West equal America!

I hope, you also don't deny that entire West depends on its prosperity on the U.S.

U.S is different than the West (just as other Western countries are diff. from each other and hence, "different" from the West) but no sensible person can deny that U.S belongs to the West.

Colin wrote: I don't know if it's true but I have also read that during inter-tribal wars, particularly in West Africa, it was traditional for the victors to take slaves as a form of war booty.

A slave in Africa was not the same as a slave for Europeans.

A slave for Eurpeans is 3/5ths of a human being, which is currently written in the US Constitution .

Not quite an animal, not quite human.

Rehmat wrote: blond wrote: ....I think you just like to fight. The African Slave Trade, was limited to Africans The genocide of Native Amercans was limited to Native Amercans Feel free to add any others you want. But I was specific, not general. I could but this board would not have the capacity to take all those stories of European slave victims - 100,000/year in the US; 3000/year in Israel, etc. Oh by the way - I way NOT scared of your 'Bold WMDs'.

I was  not trying to scare you, sir. It was obvious that you had trouble reading the small type.

blond wrote: I was  not trying to scare you, sir. It was obvious that you had trouble reading the small type.

Are you suggesting that I borrow your eye-glasses? So far my doctor has not prescribed any for me.

Rehmat wrote: blond wrote: I was  not trying to scare you, sir. It was obvious that you had trouble reading the small type. Are you suggesting that I borrow your eye-glasses? So far my doctor has not prescribed any for me.

That's ok. I'll buy you a pair.

Rehmat wrote: Colin wrote: I think you'll also find that Muslim Arabs were big players in the African slave trade, and long before the evil westerners got in on the act. YEP, Muslim Arabs went to Africa before the Christian Roman. Hell, which history books I had been reading!

Sorry mate, I have no idea which history books you "had been reading".

Colin wrote: ...Sorry mate, I have no idea which history books you "had been reading".

Sorry I don't believe in 'same sex marriages'.

The history books I have been reading were, fortunately, not written by Bernard Lewis or Williams Collin. The say that Arab became Muslims 250 years after the Church chased Nazarenes to Africa.

Now back to the original topic � The nudity and vulgarity in western societies.

The position of women in the Judaeo-Christian tradition might seem frightening by our late twentieth century standards. Nevertheless, it has to be viewed within the proper historical context. In other words, any objective assessment of the position of women in the Judaeo-Christian tradition has to take into account the historical circumstances in which this tradition developed. There can be no doubt that the views of the Rabbis and the Church Fathers regarding women were influenced by the prevalent attitudes towards women in their societies. The Bible itself was written by different authors at different times. These authors could not have been impervious to the values and the way of life of the people around them. For example, the adultery laws of the Old Testament are so biased against women that they defy rational explanation by our mentality. However, if we consider the fact that the early Jewish tribes were obsessed with their genetic homogeneity and extremely eager to define themselves apart from the surrounding tribes and that only sexual misconduct by the married females of the tribes could threaten these cherished aspirations, we should then be able to understand, but not necessarily sympathize with, the reasons for this bias. Also, the diatribes of the Church Fathers against women should not be detached from the context of the misogynist Greco-Roman culture in which they lived. It would be unfair to evaluate the Judaeo-Christian legacy without giving any consideration to the relevant historical context.

Muslims traded in African slaves for a long time. White people in the USA brought people from Africa to be slaves in the USA. The Portuguese brought people over from Africa to be slaves as well. No one seems to have either mentioned or really acknowledged any of matters like these.

Seems like Africa has a lot to be angry about and a lot of white people had/have some apologising to do.

(And yes - white people in Australia did some awful stuff for a long time, although I believe things were not so nasty in New Zealand - they seem to have got their act together earlier than we did)

And if anyone's interested - Angel's from Australia, not Israel.

Oh - and what does "same sex marriages" have to do with Colin? Gee, you must have a hard time in Canada - a place that is civilised enough to let people who love each other actually be married. 

Rehmat - what do you have against Australia? You insult us left, right and centre, despite the fact that Angel and I are the sorts of people who will actually agree with much of what you say about about our past. Although you have not been around very long, I think, and you appear to think that most non-Muslims are scum anyway. Well, get over it - God created us too, so one assumes we have a purpose. Even if it's just to irritate Sensitive Little Flowers like extremists...

Oh, and to get back on topic - if people spent more time nude, we would learn how to be less paranoid, less repressed, less judgmental and would actually treat each other less as sex-objects and more as real people. Nudity is only exciting to people who go to men's clubs and strip joints because it is generally disallowed and frowned upon in general society. If nudity was more widespread, people would not find it exciting. It would just be normal and people would just be regarded as human, not as toys.

I can remember several years ago on the old Islamicity boards, "Aus" complaining that he now felt "nothing" when he saw women around him on the street because he was now accoustomed to seeing women everywhere with now veils and wearing Western clothes.

He seemed to think that "feeling nothing" towards women in the street was a problem. I welcomed him "to the world", explaining that it's normal and natural to feel nothing towards women in the street because if he felt "something" towards all the women in the street, then wouldn't that make him a sick pervert? (or words to that extent, forgive me if I'm remembering my words wrongly, but that was my intent, as I remember)

It worries me that he apparently thinks it's normal to "feel something" towards loads of women whp were complete strangers.

If you repress people's instincts or feelings, then those feelings and instincts will emerge in some other way, some other time. Why do you think Catholic priests have so much sex? If you tell people they can't do something, then a lot of the time, they will want to do it. You can't stop all of the people all of the time. So you may as well let them do it and get it out of their system, so the thing is not so fascinating or exciting any more.

Kim...

Kim wrote: Muslims traded in African slaves for a long time. White people in the USA brought people from Africa to be slaves in the USA. The Portuguese brought people over from Africa to be slaves as well. No one seems to have either mentioned or really acknowledged any of matters like these.

Although Muslims traded in African slaves, they also had White slaves. In contrast, Westerners picked up only the coloured people for slavery, at least in the Modern era. Therefore, Westerners should be considered to be antagonistic to all the coloured people. Though, the slaves were treated worse by the Westerners compared to the Muslims, that is irrelevant.

Kim! wrote: If you repress people's instincts or feelings, then those feelings and instincts will emerge in some other way, some other time. Why do you think Catholic priests have so much sex?

Yeah, I agree. But going to the other extreme is not the solution, either. We should adopt a middle approach.

Law should enforce women to wear veil to eliminate prostitution in all its forms. Prostitution should be defined as extracting materialistic favours from other men, by sexually exciting them, by  women.

Kim! wrote: Nudity is only exciting to people who go to men's clubs and strip joints because it is generally disallowed and frowned upon in general society. If nudity was more widespread, people would not find it exciting. It would just be normal and people would just be regarded as human, not as toys. If you repress people's instincts or feelings, then those feelings and instincts will emerge in some other way, some other time. Why do you think Catholic priests have so much sex? If you tell people they can't do something, then a lot of the time, they will want to do it. You can't stop all of the people all of the time. So you may as well let them do it and get it out of their system, so the thing is not so fascinating or exciting any more.

Kim probably you are right, but the problem is the evilness of human being is never ever can be satisfied, let say the nudity and free sex become public, people will do something else that more exciting for example having sex with animal, biological brother/sister, biological parents/children etc. We can see this tend in western culture. The first one (sex with animal) still circulate on blue film.  For the second one (biologicalbrother/sister, biological parents/children etc) you can see it more public on program such as jerry springer (in the US) etc.

The approach that Islam does, not suppressing the instinct and biological need, but control and manage it in the proper and civilize way.

Rehmat wrote: Colin wrote: ...Sorry mate, I have no idea which history books you "had been reading". Sorry I don't believe in 'same sex marriages'. The history books I have been reading were, fortunately, not written by Bernard Lewis or Williams Collin. The say that Arab became Muslims 250 years after the Church chased Nazarenes to Africa.

Rehmat, I also don't believe in same sex marriages - not even as a wacky form of population control... Anyhow, back to history books. As I'm sure you are aware, history books are no different from any other reference books in that some are good, some are bad and some totally indifferent. Many of the worst history books are nothing more than propaganda.

Colin wrote: Rehmat, I also don't believe in same sex marriages ...

That mean you did not know the meaning of English word 'mate'! Now how the heck you expect me to believe rest of your stuff?

As far history books are concerned - let me quote you some 'wise guy' who once said - History is written by the victors. How else you suppose the Nazis are villified while their 'Zionist collaborators' are being rewarded in $trillions!

Rehmat wrote: Colin wrote: Rehmat, I also don't believe in same sex marriages ...    That mean you did not know the meaning of English word 'mate'! Now how the heck you expect me to believe rest of your stuff?

Mate = friend....It could also mean to copulate, I understand a fair amount of the aforementioned activity happens outside of marital relationships (be they same sex or hetrosexual).......but I can assure you that I was using the word purely in context of friendship.

As far history books are concerned - let me quote you some 'wise guy' who once said - History is written by the victors. How else you suppose the Nazis are villified while their 'Zionist collaborators' are being rewarded in $trillions!

Regardless of who wrote the history of WW2, I'm sure that the Nazi did quite enough to ensure they got a bad write-up. 

Colin wrote: ...Mate = friend....It could also mean to copulate, I understand a fair amount of the aforementioned activity happens outside of marital relationships (be they same sex or hetrosexual).......but I can assure you that I was using the word purely in context of friendship. Regardless of who wrote the history of WW2, I'm sure that the Nazi did quite enough to ensure they got a bad write-up.

I am afraid your definition of �mate� is as ridiculous as your knowledge of Nazi-Zionist collaboration (or a case of self-denial)!

Early in 1935, a passenger ship bound for Haifa in Palestine left the German port of Bremerhaven. Its stern bore the Hebrew letter for its name, "Tel Aviv", while a swastika banner fluttered from the mast. And although the ship was Zionist owned, its captain was a National Socialist Party (Nazi) member. Many years later a traveler aboard the ship recalled this symbolic combination as a "metaphysical absurdity". Absurd or not, this is but one vignette from a little-known chapter of history: The wide ranging collaboration between Jews and Hitler's Third Reich.

In early January 1941 a small but important Jewish organization submitted a formal proposal to German diplomats in Beirut for a military-political alliance with wartime Germany. The offer was made by the radical underground "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel", better known as the Lehi or Stern Gang. Its leader, Avraham Stern, had recently broken with the radical nationalist "National Military Organization" (Irgun Zvai Leumi - Etzel) over the group's attitude toward Britain, which had effectively banned further Jewish settlement of Palestine. Stern regarded Britain as the main enemy of Zionism.

This remarkable proposal "for the solution of the Jewish question in Europe and the active participation on the NMO [Lehi] in the war on the side of Germany" is worth quoting at some length:

"The NMO which is very familiar with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its officials towards Zionist activities within Germany and the Zionist emigration program takes the view that:

1. Common interests can exist between a European New Order based on the German concept and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as embodied by the NMO.
2. Cooperation is possible between the New Germany and a renewed, folkish-national Jewry.
3. The establishment of the Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, and bound by treaty, with the German Reich, would be in the interest of maintaining and strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East.

On the basis of these considerations, and upon the condition that the German Reich government recognize the national aspirations of the Israel Freedom Movement mentioned above, the NMO in Palestine offers to actively take part in the war on the side of Germany.

This offer by the NMO could include military, political and informational activity within Palestine and, after certain organizational measures, outside as well. Along with this the "Jewish" men of Europe would be militarily trained and organized in military units under the leadership and command of the NMO. They would take part in combat operations for the purpose of conquering Palestine, should such a front be formed.

The indirect participation of the Israel Freedom Movement in the New Order of Europe, already in the preparatory stage, combined with a positive-radical solution of the European-Jewish problem on the basis of the national aspirations of the Jewish people mentioned above, would greatly strengthen the moral foundation of the New Order in the eyes of all humanity.

On the basis of their similar ideologies about ethnicity and nationhood, National Socialists and Jews worked together for what each group believed was in its own national interests.

This was just one example of the Zionist movements' collaboration with Hitler for the purpose of receiving jurisdiction over a minute piece of earth, Muslim Palestine.

Rehmat wrote:

I am afraid your definition of �mate� is as ridiculous as your knowledge of Nazi-Zionist collaboration (or a case of self-denial)!

Rehmat, far from ridiculous, I think you'll find that there are several definitions for the word "mate".... Your above post makes it fairly apparent that you are the type that likes making semi-informed propagandists statements...So for now, I'm prepared to make allowances for your over-exuberance.  :---)

You might want to take a look here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mate - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mate

Colin wrote: ...Rehmat, far from ridiculous, I think you'll find that there are several definitions for the word "mate".... Your above post makes it fairly apparent that you are the type that likes making semi-informed propagandists statements...So for now, I'm prepared to make allowances for your over-exuberance....

Hey, my answer is still the same - I am NOT one of those 26-30 million American gays - majority of whom happens to be Jews (proportion to their population - of course).

Rehmat wrote: Colin wrote: ...Rehmat, far from ridiculous, I think you'll find that there are several definitions for the word "mate".... Your above post makes it fairly apparent that you are the type that likes making semi-informed propagandists statements...So for now, I'm prepared to make allowances for your over-exuberance.... Hey, my answer is still the same - I am NOT one of those 26-30 million American gays - majority of whom happens to be Jews (proportion to their population - of course).

Thanks Rehmat, keep talking, you are proving my claim much better than I ever could.

Colin wrote: Thanks Rehmat, keep talking, you are proving my claim much better than I ever could.

Any time buddy (Oops, 'mate')!

ZamanH wrote: Kim! wrote: If you repress people's instincts or feelings, then those feelings and instincts will emerge in some other way, some other time. Why do you think Catholic priests have so much sex? Yeah, I agree. But going to the other extreme is not the solution, either. We should adopt a middle approach. Law should enforce women to wear veil to eliminate prostitution in all its forms. Prostitution should be defined as extracting materialistic favours from other men, by sexually exciting them, by  women.

Hi,

The veil does not stop prostitution. Iran is a perfect example. I saw some Iranian movies last year at the Melbourne International Film Festival. In one of the documentaries, a woman told the story of being at a man's house (she was working as a prostitute) when his wife came home unexpectedly. The naked prostitute threw on her black gear (sorry, I have forgotten the word used in Iran to describe those big, black, full body coverings) and the husband explained to her wife that because it was raining outside, an old woman had asked to come into the house to pray, instead of trying to get home in the rain.

Kim...

Colin wrote: ....Perhaps a little less quantity and a little more quality would improve the situation. :----)

Excuse me, did I hear you talking in front of your mirror!

Rehmat wrote: Colin wrote: ....Perhaps a little less quantity and a little more quality would improve the situation. :----) Excuse me, did I hear you talking in front of your mirror!

You have only been a member for a short while but you will soon be catching up with my post count. Need I say more? :---)

Colin wrote: You have only been a member for a short while but you will soon be catching up with my post count. Need I say more? :---)

Best things always come in small packages.

Rehmat wrote: Angel wrote: Rehmat wrote: After living 35 years withing western society - I think I could have better idea what is going on! Did you ever get out thou?   Yes - As a matter of fact I did go to your home-country - Israel in 1996.

wow, one place

And by the way Israel is not my home country!

Rehmat wrote: Angel wrote: Rehmat, in your orignal post, you generalise way too much. And another thing America does not equal the West! nor does the West equal America! Are you saying that the vast majority of Americans are not decendents of European settlers? And how about, that Zionist prime minister of Israel wrote in his biography - "Israel may be situated in the Middle East, but we are European in every sense....?" But then the 'West' could be out of European - or all Europeans could be Khazars - like the European Jew settlers in Palestine.

And this has do with nudity in western culture..how ?

Angel wrote: And this has do with nudity in western culture..how ?

Who else control the 'The Pornographic Industry' in the US and Europe other than the Jews?

Maybe it's time for you to study professor Israel Shamir's columns more often

Rehmat wrote: 2. European 'decemating' is also not limited to Native American Indians. They did the same thing to Native Australian Indians - Are currently doing it to Native Palestinian Arabs.

Correction, native Australians are not indians, never have been called that. Their true name is Aboriginals.

ZamanH wrote: U.S is different than the West (just as other Western countries are diff. from each other and hence, "different" from the West) but no sensible person can deny that U.S belongs to the West.

I don't know about 'belong', included in the West, yes but belong..na and still my statement stands The West is not america nor is america the west.

Colin wrote: Rehmat wrote: Colin wrote: Thanks Rehmat, keep talking, you are proving my claim much better than I ever could. Any time buddy (Oops, 'mate')! Rehmat, sorry to spoil your "fun", but to launch straight in with a personal attack on me, namely, labelling my definition of the word "mate" ridiculous and questioning my understanding of the English language, without even bothering to check a dictionary first (where you would have found that my use of the word "mate" was indeed perfectly correct), to me, speaks volumes about your credibility as a member of this forum. Let's face it, if you can't even bother to check a simple word definition, how do you expect fellow members to have any confidence in the validity of the large amount of, shall we say; "highly politicized" material that you so frequently copy and paste from other web sites? Perhaps a little less quantity and a little more quality would improve the situation. :----)

Colin, I wonder what Rehmat thinks of Australia, then?  

ZamanH wrote: Although Muslims traded in African slaves, they also had White slaves. In contrast, Westerners picked up only the coloured people for slavery, at least in the Modern era.

Europeans actually tried to enslave everyone, but only the Africans were strong enough to endure while the others just died of exhaustion.

Thank you.

Angel wrote: Colin, I wonder what Rehmat thinks of Australia, then?

He probably thinks it's God's own place... full of roos, cobbers and bonza sheilas.

No worries mate. :--)

Colin wrote: He probably thinks it's God's own place... full of roos, cobbers and bonza sheilas. No worries mate. :--)

Thanks dude - I could not have said it better myself

Kim! wrote: The veil does not stop prostitution.

Veil cannot eradicate the prostitution completely but it reduces it to a great extent. Prostituion shouldn't necceassarily mean forced intercourse with women. It can exist in other forms too, in which it is voluntarily practised by women.

For example, I recently went to buy a motorbike for my cousin in a showroom. The attendants there were all young girls and knew nothing about bikes. The shopkeeper had intentionally kept them there to attract buyers. That should also be seen as a form of prostitution as the women were eliciting materialistic favours from men by sexually exciting them.

Zaman.

Daniel Dworsky wrote: I think it was a play on words Rehmy my bro.. UN as opposed to NU like a palendromic prefix ...

Well I just showed your post to my Rabbi and after contemplating for a while he answered - Brother Rahmy - I can assure you that best Zionist is the most idiot Jew.

In case some �self-denying Muslim� considers my �Rabbi Conspiracy Theory� fake � here are some famous Rabbanical quotes:

"...if we place all the immodesty and promiscuity of the generation and the many sins of the world on one side of the scale, and the Zionist state on the other side of the scale by itself, it would outweigh them all. Zionism is the greatest form of spiritual impurity in the entire world. They are polluting the entire world. They have polluted the Jewish people with their heresy, Heaven help us. It is no surprise why G-d's anger comes down from heaven. It is necessary to repent and escape from them more than from a lion who is chasing a person to kill him." - Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum

For more �Holy Quotes� please refer to this Jewish converts website (Do remember that according to Jewish law � once you�re born to a Jewess � you�re a Jew forever � even if you become an atheist as all of Israel�s prime ministers have been).

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Jews-not-for-Judaism/ztheresy.html - http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Jews-not-for-Judaism/ztheresy. html

[QUOTE=Daniel Dworsky]........Again thank you for your help. ........./QUOTE]

No problem. My Rabbi is a 'perfect gentleman' - He was kind enough to give me some quotes from your Holy Talmud for your 'Jewish blessings'

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Insults Against Mary the Jew, Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Mary the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with honey and eat it.

Gittin 70a . The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."

To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew should >take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dog's excrement as it loosens the limbs. Pesahim 111a.

 It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads. Menahoth 43b-44a .

A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a Gentile, a woman or a slave.  Shabbath 86a-86b.

jalillah

I could have replied to your interesting theory - but after reading your latest post on 'Evolution' - I decided not to - because I am sure - Iam not amongst the 'People of Apes'.

bissmillah wrote: Whats wrong with that theory?

For one thing - it's against the 'Laws of Nature' and second it doesn't conform to the Divine Message of Holy Qur'an.

http://www.hyahya.org/evolution_specialpreface.php - http://www.hyahya.org/evolution_specialpreface.php

I stand 101% behind my previous statement - I am NOT amongst the People of the Apes - period.

BTW - what happened to your oath to boycott Rehmat?

Rehmat wrote: http://www.hyahya.org/evolution_specialpreface.php - hyahya

you don't believe in that guy do you

Anyway I guess I'm out of ths thread since its changed twice

Sorry sir, I cannot find any writings - either by Karl Marx or Theodor Herzl on this subject. But you got them - please do share it with the rest of the Global Community.

Thanks.

Are you not trying to be 'modest'?

Karl Marx was a great scientist when it came to murdering innocent people. He belonged to a Rabbi family and learned all that barbarism from his Holy Book - The Talmud.

And so was Theodor Herzl.

I am surprised that being cornered in the 'Jewish-Communism corner' you decided to throw down your towel.

Franklt, I have no respect for Marx or Herzl - but before, hopefully, we close down this murderous chapter of these homicidal maniac - let me suggest you to read Marx's famous book - 'The Jewish Solution'.

As for Herzl is concerned he always wanted European Jews to forsake their racist religion and merge into Christianity - for their own safety.

Rehmat wrote: I am surprised that being cornered in the 'Jewish-Communism corner' you decided to throw down your towel.

You are jumping from one topic to another without any logical relation between them

My post here stated that yahya is no reference.
Thats totally unrelated to any Marx, Hegel, Communism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam or anything the like.

Franklt, I have no respect for Marx or Herzl - but before, hopefully, we close down this murderous chapter of these homicidal maniac - let me suggest you to read Marx's famous book - 'The Jewish Solution'. As for Herzl is concerned he always wanted European Jews to forsake their racist religion and merge into Christianity - for their own safety.

deist wrote: ...Frankly spoken i dont understand what you are talking about

Good thinking - Why waste others and mine time - But then how you're going to make your living?

deist wrote: You are jumping from one topic to another without any logical relation between them

yep, that seems to be rehmat and getting famous for it  

You do recognize that nothing in your post has anything to do with evolution or with Harun Yahya dont you ?

Nor with the original topic for that matter!

Deist, advice - leave him others have in this thread

Hey �two-in-one� � before you do it � can I give you a �going-away� present?

Three members of an ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, who admitted involvement in a $42 million international money-laundering scheme, have escaped going to jail mainly because of their religious beliefs.

The head of the family, Nachum Goldberg, 58, who masterminded the racket, was jailed for five years and ordered to serve a minimum non-parole term of 2 years.

But his wife Rita, 56, and sons Napthali, 36, and Hershel, 34, were freed on suspended sentences, with Victorian County Court judge Michael Strong saying prison for them would be "extraordinarily difficult".

Rehmat wrote: Hey �two-in-one� � before you do it � can I give you a �going-away� present? Three members of an ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, who admitted involvement in a $42 million international money-laundering scheme, have escaped going to jail mainly because of their religious beliefs. The head of the family, Nachum Goldberg, 58, who masterminded the racket, was jailed for five years and ordered to serve a minimum non-parole term of 2 years. But his wife Rita, 56, and sons Napthali, 36, and Hershel, 34, were freed on suspended sentences, with Victorian County Court judge Michael Strong saying prison for them would be "extraordinarily difficult". All four Goldbergs had pleaded guilty to conspiring to defraud the Commonwealth. � (Sydney Morning Herald)

What has this got to do with anything in this thread

Promise, promise, promis....

And the 2-in-1 is back. That thread happened to be a 'go-away' gift for you as I stated before.

I feel as if I've been slipped some sort of mood altering drug!  I came to this site because I received an email describing the new format and decided to check it out. 

I am a Roman Catholic, born and raised in America.  There is no one I hate, not Jew, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic, Protestant, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. etc.  For years I have been told that Islam is a religion of peace and love toward all people.  Our recently deceased pope, John Paul II, journeyed to meet with the Muslim people, kissed the Koran, and was honored by several officials in the Islamic hierarchy at his funeral mass.  He openly stated the Muslims were his brothers.

So what in the world is all this anti-humanity garbage being allowed on an Islamic website?  I don't get it.  Have you no respect for the cultures, faiths, freedoms, laws, governments, hopes and dreams of any other people?  From what I see going on Muslims are having quite a difficult time keeping from killing each other.  How is that justified by your religion?

Yes, you bet there are women in America who run around in very little or no clothes.  I hate it, but I'm not them, and no one is forcing them to pose nude or make a movie in a bikini.  They choose to do so.  It's very much against my faith and my religion.  It is not the will of God, in my opinion.  But in my country people are free to choose their moral code and behavior, as long as they are not harming another citizen.  There are millions and millions of people who would never be seen in this stage of undress publicly.  Don't exaggerate the situation!  Get your facts and statistics straight.  Many millions of Christians, Catholics, Muslims, and Jews are very moral people with their consciences quite intact as to what is proper and what is not.  So who are you to distort the true facts in an attempt to spread lies and untruths across the world.  This planet has quite enough problems which need to be solved without people with too much time on their hands attempting to stir the pot and cause even more unrest among cultures and religions.

Nothing good will ever come from this type of conversation.  You are not acting as a gentleman or a lady when you slander other people, most of whom you really know nothing, or very little, about.  If Islam is truly a religion of peace, why don't you begin working deligently toward peace, and have a little charity toward others in this world?

God's Peace Be With You,

Patty

Patty wrote: ...If Islam is truly a religion of peace, why don't you begin working deligently toward peace, and have a little charity toward others in this world?...

Yes Islam is the ONLY religion of peace - And it doesn't need non-Muslims' approval for that - Because it has proved it for more than 1100 years - giving more respectable and dignified life-style to Jews, Christians and Hindus - which they could not dream among their own religionists.

As for charity to others - tell me who is willing to come forward to embrace that charity of tolerance - Jew, Christians or Hindus? They all have been creating Muslims 'killing fields' in Palestine, Kashmir, Philippines, Serbia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., etc.

Or unless to love to live in self-denial and pretend that it's all due to Muslim faults.

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Thank you for your input, Patty.

I am forwarding your note to the CEO, because I am not the one who is allowing this guy here.

I have created a hue and cry in the moderator discussion forum as well, but it was kind of dismissed .... so i hope your note will have a greater impact.

Once again thanks for your input.

Peace,

Nausheen