Christians are degrading Islam

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Topic: Christians are degrading Islam

Posted By: AbRah2006
Subject: Christians are degrading Islam
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 10:45pm

There are so many Christian webs such as answering-islam.org that insult, degrade and slander Islam, Allah, the prophet Muhammad and Muslims on the internet. These anti-Islam web sites shamelessly corrupt the teachings of Islam into a lie so that non-Muslims will hate Islam. The Western media is biased against Islam and Muslims by labelling them as the terrorists. It is an irony that the media tend to label Islam as a terrorist religion when a Muslim kill the non-Muslims who are invading and occupying his nation such as Iraq and Afghanistan but it does not label other religions as the terrorist religions even if their followers murder innocent people. The media does not call IRA followers as the Christian terrorists eventhough they kill Christians in Ireland.

Christian Evangelists like Jerry Vines (of Southern Baptist Convention), Pat Robertson (of 700 Club), Jerry Falwell (of Christian Moral Majority) and Franklin Graham (of Samaritan�s Purse), all known for their bigotry have degraded , insulted, and slandered Islam in the media etc! It is an irony that they are afraid to debate openly in the public!

A popular US televangelist's accusation that Muslims are "worse than the Nazis" and call for Jews to wake up to the threat drew fire on Tuesday from a leading American-Islamic group which warned the comments could spark violence.

Robertson, whose previous anti-Islam comments have been denounced by Jewish and Muslims groups alike, said those who criticised him - whom he termed "so-called doves" - did not understand the situation.

"If I say something that Islam is, you know, an erroneous religion, then I get criticised by the Anti-Defamation League," he said, referring to the prominent US-based Jewish advocacy group.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) on Tuesday denounced Robertson's remarks as "lies, distortions and outright bigotry."

WASHINGTON, November 7 - Responding to Rev. Pat Robertson's October 27, 1997, televised statement that "to see Americans become followers of, quote, Islam, is nothing short of insanity," Rabbi David Saperstein, director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, wrote to Rev. Robertson expressing outrage at Robertson's intolerance and anti-Islamic bigotry. "As a people who has experienced the hatred and bigotry of others," wrote Saperstein, "we, too, are hurt by slurs such as yours against the Islamic faith." "For the sake of religious decency," Saperstein called upon Robertson to "issue an immediate apology to Muslims and to our nation."

Baptist minister Jerry Falwell called the Prophet Mohammed "a terrorist," sparking international outrage and deadly riots in the Indian city of Bombay. Falwell later apologised.

Franklin Graham, son of the noted preacher Billy Graham, has also been accused of making defamatory statements about Islam.

Rev. Pat Robertson: �Adolf Hitler was bad, but what the Muslims want to do to the Jews is worse.�
Rev. Jerry Falwell: �I think Mohammed was a terrorist.�
Rev. Jerry Vines: �Islam was founded by Mohammed, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, and his last one was a nine-year-old girl.�

Rev. Jimmy Swaggart: �We ought to take, we ought to take every single Muslim student in every college in this nation and ship them back to where they came from.�

There is now in America more room for bigotry and intolerance to thrive. The search for security at any cost has created an environment that is emboldening Islamophobia - a nasty cousin of anti-Semitism - to manifest itself in nearly every sphere of American society. Muslims are feeling discrimination and demonization and experiencing a palpable sense of alienation in schools, universities, in the workplace, and most severely on the information highways - radio, TV, and the Internet.

I noticed a really offensive bumper sticker on a car in front of me. It said, "Kill them all, Let Allah sort them out." This was especially shocking to me. I have worked night and day to advance a moderate vision of Islam, provided a scathing criticism of Islamic extremism, and worked to develop common ground for inter-faith and inter-civilizational understanding. Many voices for peace and understanding have spoken up and many individuals and groups, churches, mosques and synagogues have worked tirelessly to create local spaces for mutual appreciation and understanding.

Yet in spite of all these efforts, the sticker suggests that the forces of hate, bigotry and intolerance are winning in America too. American values are in danger from outside as well as inside. I wish I had a sticker that would express the thought that raced through my mind at that moment - "Why do they hate us?"

One of the reasons for the growing Islamopheobia in this country is the anti-Muslim rhetoric coming from the evangelical Christian community. Their leaders have repeatedly made extremely venomous public statements about Islam and Muslims and the Bush administration has continued to patronize them, suggesting that while the official position maintains that Islam is a religion of peace, the government does not have any problem coddling those who spread hatred against Islam. The recent decision by the White House to nominate a prominent Islamophoebe to the board of the US Institute of Peace and the invitation by the pentagon to Franklin Graham, who called Islam, the faith that believes in the immaculate birth of Christ and recognizes Moses, Jesus and Abraham as Prophets of God as a wicked religion; are indications that even the highest levels of government are not insulated from the influence of a group of bigoted religious fundamentalists, who are undermining the secular character of America, subverting the peaceful message of Christianity and polluting the socio-cultural environment of America. Rev. Jerry Falwell, Rev. Pat Robertson, Rev. Jerry Vines and Rev. Franklin Graham are four of the most prominent, powerful and vocal representatives of this group.

The Christian extremists have unleashed a verbal assault on Islam and its religious symbols unmindful of the hate it is inciting against Muslim in America and the anti-American sentiments it is generating in the Muslim World. Rev. Falwell and Rev. Pat Robertson have called The Prophet of Islam a terrorist and argued that Islam and its teachings are the sources of violence. Rev. Franklin Graham has announced that Islam and its teaching are evil and wicked. Jerry Vines called Muhammad (pbuh) as a "demon-possessed-pedophile." Their comments have caused anger among Muslims worldwide, including religious riots in India that led to five deaths. Many Pakistanis have reacted angrily and expressed their dismay by voting strongly in favor of a pro-Taliban and anti-American alliance in the last elections in Pakistan.

Some Christians even draw and publish the cartoons all over the world to slander, insult and degrade the prophet Muhammad . Is that what Jesus Christ teaches them to do?

There are some cases inwhich the Christians flush the Quran into sewer and abuse the Quran to extreme. is that what Jesus Christ asks you Christians to do? We Muslims never flush nor abuse the Bible!

The Christian soldiers are invading and plundering Muslim nations such as Iraq and Afghanistan. The Christian soldiers are raping, torturing, and murdering the innocent Muslim babies, children, women, elderly people and unarmed men in Muslim nations. The Christian forces bombard and bomb civilian targets including mosques in Iraq and Afghanistan using weapons of mass destruction such the cluster bombs.

Each cluster bomb is composed of 200 to 700 bomblets. When each bomblet explodes it fragments into about 300 pieces of jagged steel � sending out virtual blizzards of deadly shrapnel.

People are decapitated, arms, legs, hands and feet are severed from their bodies � anyone and anything alive in the immediate vicinity is shredded into a bloody mess.

Picture yourself, your girlfriend or boyfriend, your wife or husband, and your children reduced to dismembered body parts by the United States military, and you'll have a clue as to what unfortunate people around the world have experienced since the Vietnam Genocide.

Abu Gharaib jail is an example of the many Christian atrocities of Muslims. In Abu Gharaib jail the US troops and the mercenaries who are hired by the US government rape, torture and murder Muslim babies, children, women, elderly people and unarmed men. Muslim women are degraded, molested and raped by the US soldiers who are mostly Christians! Muslim families are murdered by the US troops in cold blood at the US check-points in Iraq. Iraqi towns destroyed by the US forces. The US troops abuse the holy Quran and mosques etc.Is this what Jesus Christ taught you to do?

The American genocide of innocent Muslims in the Iraqi city of Haditha 19 November 2005:

A 10-year-old girl told The Times of London this weekend that US soldiers deliberately shot and killed almost her entire family as she lay hiding in the corner. Iman Hassan described how she heard the dying groans of her grandfather, mother, father, two uncles and a young cousin.

The Los Angeles Times has also reported that investigators have concluded that marines went on the rampage, killing unarmed civilians, including women and children.According to this account, up to a dozen marines were involved either in the incident, or covering it up afterwards.

The LA Times says investigators are preparing to call for charges including murder, negligent homicide, dereliction of duty and filing a false report.

Fresh evidence of 'executions' by rogue US marines in Iraq

New photographs lend weight to allegations of revenge killings by US unit under attack in which 24 unarmed civilians died

Paul Harris in Washington and David Smith in Basra
Sunday May 28, 2006
http://www.observer.co.uk/ - The Observer

Fresh photographic evidence seen by US investigators is believed to reveal that some of the 24 unarmed Iraqis killed in the Iraqi town of Haditha after an American died in a roadside bomb in November were in effect executed, it was reported yesterday.

According to Congressional and defence officials quoted by the Los Angeles Times, the pictures show wounds to the upper bodies of the victims, who included several women and six children. Some were shot in the head and some in the back.

'There wasn't a gunfight, there were no pockmarked walls,' the paper reports a congressional aide as saying. And it quotes a US Defence Department official who had been briefed on the contents of the photos as saying 'the wounds indicated execution-style' shootings.

US military investigators are probing the events of 19 November 2005, and a picture is gradually emerging of a small group of troops who lost control in the wake of an unrelated attack on their vehicle, which left one of their comrades dead. Other soldiers then helped to cover up the atrocity.

Claims that US marines massacred Iraqi civilians threaten to undermine public support for keeping British troops in the country, the UK's most senior military officer said yesterday. The Chief of Defence Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, said that reports of the unprovoked killing of up to two dozen unarmed Iraqis would be 'appalling' if proved accurate.

Before the first illegal American invasion of Iraq, the US government and its allies had imposed economy sanctions and food embargoes onto Iraq that starved millions of Iraqi babies to death!

The Christians are insulting, degrading and slandering Islam and Muslims because the Christians feel insecure and they are jealous of Islam that spreading fast all over Europe and USA.

Let me quote this article of the Christian website CHRISTIANITYTODAY.COM:

Between 1989 and 1998 the Islamic population in Europe grew by over 100 percent, to 14 million (approximately 2 percent of the population), according to United Nations statistics. During the same period, the Muslim population in the United States grew by 25 percent. Islam is the second-largest religious group in the world, with more than a billion members worldwide (some estimates put it closer to two billion). An estimated 4 to 6 million Muslims live in the U.S. today, and that number is growing. Islam could be the second-largest religion in America by 2015, surpassing Judaism, according to some estimates. By other estimates, Islam has achieved that rank already.

Islam is gaining most of its U.S. converts in prisons and on university campuses. The majority of American converts to Islam�85 to 90 percent�are black. Of the estimated 6 million Muslims in the U.S., 2.6 million are black. "One out of every 15 blacks identifies him or herself as Muslim," notes Carl Ellis. Anglo women make up an another demographic with a surprisingly high conversion rate in the U.S.

At the same time, the American Christian community has misunderstood Islam and so neglected to address it. It is impossible to present the scope of this complex belief system in a single article. Islam is complicated, disparate, evolving, and sometimes at war with itself. Still, Christians have a responsibility to understand our Muslim neighbors, come to terms with their increasing presence and influence, and learn how to bear an authentic witness out of love and not fear. (CHRISTIANITYTODAY.COM)

My comment:The prophet Muhammad taught Muslims to love and respect Jesus who was messenger of Allah. We Muslims are not allowed to degrade Jesus for it is a big sin to do so. It is an irony that some of you Christians degrade , insult, and slander the prophet Muhammad.

So these Christian extremists are the so-called righteous Christians who claim that they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ while slandering, cursing, degrading and insulting Islam, Allah, Muslims and the prophet Muhammad! Is that what Jesus teaches them to do?

I am surprised to see how Christians condemn me for exposing the corruption of the Bible by calling me names etc but at the same time they condone those Christian extresmists who slander, insult, degrade, and curse Islam, Muslims, Quran, Allah and the prophet Muhammad!

I believe that there are Christians who love peace and respect the religious freedom and I sincerely hope that they will reject the Christian extremists and their provocations orally and verbally.

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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

Replies:

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 4:10am

MWL blasts Fox News� anti-Islam tirade
By P.K. Abdul Ghafour, Arab News Staff

MAKKAH, 29 September � The Muslim World League yesterday blasted a venomous Fox News program abusing Islam and its holy Prophet and called upon the American media to be just and objective while reporting on Islam.

The league deplored the continuing smear campaign by a section of the US media to tarnish the image of Islam and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and incite hatred against the divine religion and the Muslim community.

Dr. Abdullah Al-Turki, secretary-general of the league, said Islamic communities around the world strongly condemned the Fox News� �Hannity & Colmes� program on Sept. 18 in which televangelist Pat Robertson was given a free hand to abuse Islam and Prophet Muhammad.

About the Prophet, Robertson said: �This man was an absolute wild-eyed fanatic. He was a robber and a brigand. And to say that these terrorists distort Islam, they�re carrying out Islam.�

Instead of challenging those hate-filled remarks, program host Sean Hannity said: �Reverend, how widespread do you think that fanatical interpretation is? Do you think it�s mainstream? Or do you think it�s the majority of Muslims?�

After Robertson replied by calling Islam �a monumental scam,� Hannity said: �So Islam is a threat bigger than what most people are willing to say publicly?... Do you think it�s inevitable, then, that the world is going to be in conflict, perhaps even at war, with Islam for many decades to come?�

In the program�s second segment, Robertson said: �The Qur�an is strictly a theft of Jewish theology. I mean, this man (Muhammad) was a killer. And to think that this is a peaceful religion is fraudulent.�

Dr. Turki said, �These attacks against Islam by leveling false accusations against its prophet is a method followed by people in the days of ignorance. They accused the prophet of falsehood and madness. But it did not harm Islam. It only strengthened the religion and increased its popularity.�

Referring to Robertson�s provocative statements on the Prophet, the MWL chief said: �He was just repeating what the Jahiliya people said about Islam and the Prophet more than 1400 years ago.�

Turki said the anti-Islam media campaign would not divert public attention from the religion. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States. There are about eight million Muslims in the country.

He said the campaign was aimed at turning world opinion against Islam and Muslims. �The enemies want to give a bad impression about Islam and its culture and trigger confrontation with Muslims,� he said.

Turki warned that the spread of hatred against Muslims would promote violence against the community. �By carrying out this smear campaign, the American media is causing harm to the security and stability of the country and undermining peaceful coexistence among people of various faiths,� he added.

The MWL, Turki said, has already received reports of a shooting attack on an Ohio mosque and vandalism at an Islamic center under construction in Virginia.

Security authorities in Florida arrested a Jewish doctor in August for allegedly planning to attack about 50 mosques and Islamic centers in the state.

Turki called upon Muslims in America to show restraint toward provocative media reports. He said international Zionism was trying to trigger a confrontation between Muslims and other communities.

The MWL chief urged American Muslims to unify their ranks and cooperate with American organizations which promote dialogue between cultures.

Meanwhile, the Council of American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Washington-based advocacy group, expressed deep concern on the anti-Muslim bias by Fox News Channel citing �Hannity & Colmes� program as an example of how the network promotes anti-Muslim hate.

�Our office receives complaints daily from concerned Muslims and people of other faiths who say that Fox�s news and views on Islam, Muslims or the Middle East are neither fair nor balanced.

Venomous and hate-filled remarks such as those made by Robertson, and Sean Hannity�s failure to challenge those remarks, poison the minds of ordinary viewers and can incite acts of violence against American Muslims,� said CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad.

As other examples of the network�s anti-Muslim bias, Awad cited Fox�s inflammatory coverage of last Friday�s �terror scare� in Florida and talk show host Bill O�Reilly�s comparison of the Qur�an to Hitler�s �Mein Kampf.� Awad did however note that Fox�s �On the Record� with host Greta Van Susteren often presents fair and balanced coverage of Muslims and Islam.

In a recent CAIR survey, 45 percent of Muslim respondents said Fox News was the media outlet that exhibited the most biased coverage of Islam and Muslims.

CAIR is seeking to counter anti-Muslim hate in American society with its Library Project, a campaign to encourage Muslim individuals and groups to sponsor an 18-item �library packages� of books, videos and audio cassettes about Islam and Muslims for distribution to as many as 16,000 public libraries nationwide.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 4:27am

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/index.php?category=1 - Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam : Abdullah al-Faruq Formerly Kenneth L. Jenkins, minister and elder of the Pentecostal Church says:

1) "Not a single one could explain how Jesus was supposedly God, and how, at the same time, he was supposedly the Father, Son and Holy Ghost wrapped up into one and yet was not a part of the trinity. Several preachers finally had to concede that they did not understand it but that we were simply required to believe it."

2)"Cases of adultery and fornication went unpunished. Some Christian preachers were hooked on drugs and had destroyed their lives and the lives of their families. Leaders of some churches were found to be homosexuals. There were pastors even guilty of committing adultery with the young daughters of other church members. All of this coupled with a failure to receive answers to what I thought were valid questions was enough to make me seek a change. That change came when I accepted a job in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia."

3) "I was then given a video cassette of a debate between Shaykh Ahmed Deedat and Reverend Jimmy Swaggart. After seeing the debate I immediately became a Muslim. (To view this debate click http://www.islam.org/audio/ra622_4.ram" target=w2>here � requires RealPlayer)."

4) "I was taken to the office of Shaykh 'Abdullah bin 'Abdul-'Azeez bin Baz to officially declare my acceptance of Islam."

5) "It is my prayer that Allah will forgive us all of our ignorance and guide us to the path leading to Paradise. All praise is due to Allah. May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon His last messenger, Prophet Muhammad, his family, companions, and those following true guidance."

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 8:23pm

I hope sincerely that the Christians who claim that they respect the religious freedom will publicly condemn their leaders such as Christian Evangelists like Jerry Vines (of Southern Baptist Convention), Pat Robertson (of 700 Club), Jerry Falwell (of Christian Moral Majority) and Franklin Graham (of Samaritan�s Purse), all known for their bigotry for insulting, degrading and slandering Islam.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 1:28am

news.htm#AME

NEWYORK : Hundreds of American Prisoners in the Raikers which is the largest prison in the United States, have embraced Islam 900 of the 3000 inmates in the prison are Muslims.

Some Prisoners did not only convert to Islam but have become preachers for the religion. They included Abdul Hadi Hamid who changed from the World of crime and violence to the realm of repentance and good deeds.

He was first imprisoned in 1956 when he was 16 years old but in 1974 he converted to Islam and has become a good citizen eversince. Sheikh Saleh Jaber; the Imam of the Prisoners said an Islamic School was established inside the Prison to teach the inmates the Islamic Culture. (IINP)

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 1:32am

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=403 - http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=403 - Delegation of Priests Convert to Islam at Climax of Muslim-Christian Dialogue : The remarkable outcome of a dialogue between Muslim scholars and Christian priests

In 1980, between the 1st and 7th of December, a groundbreaking dialogue was held in Khartoum, Sudan, between Muslim scholars and Christian priests. Over several sessions this distinguished group of theologians discussed topics that go to the heart of the Islamic and Christian faiths, including Monotheism, Trinity, the Qur'an, and the Bible. At the climax of this dialogue, Father James Bakheet Sulayman, President of the Christian Mission and head of the Christian delegation, declares that he, along with the rest of the Christian priests, have decided to embrace Islam.

A Word from Father James Bakheet Sulayman, Representing the Christian Side

[Father Sulayman will imminently announce his declaration of Islam]

Respected members of the Organizatrion for the Revival of Islamic Activity in the Sudan; respected sir of the office of the Saudi Religions Attach� in Khartoum; respected and honored guests:

According to what was decided at the beginning of the first session, we were to give an opportunity to the scholars, Jamiel Ghazi, Ahmad �Abdul-Wahhab and Ibrahim Khalil, to respond to the questions related to Islam and Christianity. We had forwarded these questions to Your Eminence, hoping to find explanations and clarifications which would remove pending doubts from within ourselves. This was in the interest of knowing the truth from falsehood. Thereafter, we would give our opinion concerning the substance of the answers to the questions

No doubt, all of you are expecting that we enter into a free discussion with you right now so we can respond to your answers and detailed explanations concerning the two faiths of Islam and Christianity

Instead, we must say truthfully in front of Allah: we have no other response but to openly declare that Islam is our religion. We must adhere to all its values and standards because it is the truth. It is the light of the best people in this world and the Hereafter. Gentlemen, with this spiritual and objective beginning, we must announce that there are numerous responsibilities awaiting us, not just towards these brothers who have embraced Islam, but there are also many priests and men and women Christian leaders who need to know what we got out of this discourse between us.

Undoubtedly, this is part of the our primary responsibility wherein we must cooperate. We must cooperate sincerely, not for any material benefit, but rather to let everyone know, whether Muslims or Christians, of the truths revealed by Allah, Most Glorified, Most Exalted, to the best of His creation, Muhammad, may Allah�s peace and blessings be upon him.

Before I conclude, I would like to especially thank all those who participated with all of the various means at the disposal to make this discourse a success, enabling us to emerge with positive results. This will be there for all future generations, not only Sudan but for all peoples.

Wa as-salamu �alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh.

Reference

[1] Dialogue between Islam and Christianity: Discussion of the Religious Dogma Between Intellectuals from the Two Religions, pages 481-482. Published in 1999 by the Institute of Islamic and Arabic Sciences in America (IIASA). ISBN 1-56923-036-6

Posted By: George
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 11:41am

And Muslims degrade Christianity and misrepresent it.

We should all respect each other's choice of religion.

Peace

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 9:29pm

George wrote:

And Muslims degrade Christianity and misrepresent it.

We should all respect each other's choice of religion.

Peace

My response: It is an irony for Geroge to claim wildly by saying that Muslims degrade Christianity and misrepresent it. I have been surfing the internet and reading articles about Islam and Christianity etc for years and what do I find? I find that it is the Christian media that degrade and misrepresent Islam. Do you want to know names of the Christian websites that insult and slander Islam? Why do you condone the Christian leaders and media that insult, degrade and slander Islam in the media?

My advice for you George please be fair to yourself!

Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 12:26am

George wrote:

And Muslims degrade Christianity and misrepresent it.

how?

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Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)

Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 12:30am

amah wrote:

George wrote:

And Muslims degrade Christianity and misrepresent it.

how?

This is a very good question.

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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)

Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 2:12am

Assalaamu Alaikum wa ramatullah wa barakatuh:

One of my favorite replies to post subjects like these is to invite people to read or re-read the last sermon of the Prophet(pbuh) at: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/lastserm.HTM - http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/lastserm.HTM

Excerpt below:

"People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. ALLAH has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib (Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived..."

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

"Remember, one day you will appear before ALLAH and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone."

And favorite suras:

3:64 Say: "O followers of earlier revelation! Come unto that tenet which we and you hold in common: <>Asad(3,49) ^{truetruetrue[49]} that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall not ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, and that we shall not take human beings for our lords beside God." <>Asad(3,50) truetruetrue[50] And if they turn away, then say: "Bear witness that it is we who have surrendered ourselves unto Him."

3:78 And, behold, there are indeed some among them who distort the Bible with their tongues, so as to make you think that [what they say] is from the Bible, the while it is not from the Bible; and who say, "This is from God," the while it is not from God: and thus do they tell a lie about God, being well aware [that it is a lie]. <>Asad(3,60) truetruetrue[60]

3:118 O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take for your bosom-friends people who are not of your kind. <>Asad(3,87) true[87] They spare no effort to corrupt you; they would love to see you in distress. <>Asad(3,88) true[88] Vehement hatred has already come into the open from out of their mouths, but what their hearts conceal is yet worse. We have indeed made the signs [thereof] clear unto you, if you would but use your reason.

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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 4:03am

Maryah....

Assalamulikum to you ...May Allah rewards you and your famliy for your good deeds ....I like reading your statements for they are good.

Posted By: salman_s
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 4:14am

assalamualaikum sister maryah

you should not say that these are my favourite surahs ....

each surah of the Qur'an has its own importance.

Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 6:56am

Sister Maryah,

Jazakallahkhairan for reminding us about the last sermon of the Prophet(saw). I love it myself! Reminds me again how noble he was and his teachings were nothing but Divine inspiration.

Alhamdulillah.

Brother Salman,
Yes, each surah of the Quran is beautiful (and important), and we should read all of them and practice upon them as well. But its ok if there is any surah or ayah that is your favourite. Some things just touch your heart more than others.

Wassalaam!

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Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)

Posted By: George
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 8:36am

AbRah2006 wrote:

George wrote:

And Muslims degrade Christianity and misrepresent it.

We should all respect each other's choice of religion.

Peace

My advice for you George please be fair to yourself!

AbRah,

You are a perfect example of a Muslim who degrades Christianity and Christians. Anyone reading your posts could see that. Using Osama Abdullah's sites is a good example. I just read your post where you call Jesus a hypocrite.

Peace

Posted By: George
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 8:37am

Mishmish wrote:

amah wrote:

George wrote:

And Muslims degrade Christianity and misrepresent it.

how?

This is a very good question.

You can google stuff on the Internet and you can read AbRah's posts.

Peace

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 9:41am

There is no mutual degrading going on here, so let's all have nice exchanges.

Personally, I don't care a hoot about nasty Reverends X, Y, Z or Ali Sina.

If one does degrade, one should be prepared to receive. That applies to all of us, regardless of race, language or religion.

Muslims, however, do have a serious handicap. They will never say anything real bad, nasty or dirty about Jesus, John the baptist and Mary.

However, Muslims hurt Christians real bad when they say Jesus is NOT God. I really feel that but I can't do a thing. I have to say Jesus is not God. But many of my Muslim friends and I still try to put it very nicely in mutual exchanges and discussions. I must appreciate that our good Christian friends bear that pain well.

Let's all be fair to each other.

Good Night all

BMZ

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 10:46am

George said:

AbRah,

My response: Jesus of Islam is not the same as the Jesus in the Bible.

In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of God for he is a righteous man who calls the Jews to worship Allah the One and Only. Jesus is neither God nor the son of God for Jesus is a servant of Allah.

In Christianity Christians worship Jesus as their God and at the same time they claim that Jesus is the son of God...What a silly statement!

How could Jesus be the father and the son of himself at the same time? How could Jesus say that God was in heaven when he himself was in the world with his followers? How could Jesus be God when Jesus himself said that God was greater than him? How could Jesus be God when he himself says that he was powerless and he depended on God's help and permission? How could Jesus be the son of God when the Bible itself declares that Jesus is the son of man throughout the NT? In the NT Jesus is a servant of God but the Christians insist that Jesus is God ...How can a servant be a master of his master?

How could Jesus say, "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matthew 5:22). Yet, he himself did so repeatedly, as Matthew 23:17-19 and Luke 11:40 & 12:20 show. Clearly Jesus should be in danger of hell too?

How could Jesus say in John 14:13-14 "And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it." In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesus� name and failed to receive satisfaction. This promise or prophecy has failed completely.

Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 11:15am

bmzsp wrote:

Muslims, however, do have a serious handicap. They will never say anything real bad, nasty or dirty about Jesus, John the baptist and Mary.
I wouldn't call it a handicap...

Yes, how can we say anything bad about them? Jesus is most dear to us, like any other prophet of Allah.

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Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)

Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 6:25pm

I have just ONE question, and I hope I don't get back a big, rambling post. My question is this: Have any of you heard any CATHOLIC, from a lay person to the Pope, say anything insulting against Islam? If you have, please post who said it, and on what website. Thanks so much.

Peace and Blessings,

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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 7:13pm

Dear Patty,

Peace and Blessings,"

Never, Patty. I have never seen or heard any Catholic insulting Islam. Catholics don't do that.

It comes mostly and only from some American and British Protestants.

Best wishes

BMZ

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 4:34am

Patty wrote:

Peace and Blessings,

Yes, I personally have. I will not post it on this board. I stepped in a trap set by Mishmish once when she asked me to post allegations against Islam and got burned, but never again.

You could go to a Catholic discussion board where they discuss Islam.

Annie

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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 5:06am

AnnieTwo wrote:

Patty wrote:

Peace and Blessings,

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 5:53am

AbRah2006 wrote:

AnnieTwo wrote:

Patty wrote:

Peace and Blessings,

Where have I slandered Islam?

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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 5:54am

George said:

AbRah,

My response: Jesus of Islam is not the same as the Jesus in the Bible.

In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of God for he is a righteous man who calls the Jews to worship Allah the One and Only. Jesus is neither God nor the son of God for Jesus is a servant of Allah.

Jesus is a great prophet. The Jews already worshipped one God. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was a servant to the Father while on earth.

In Christianity Christians worship Jesus as their God and at the same time they claim that Jesus is the son of God...What a silly statement!

Christians worship only one God and that one God manifested Himself in Jesus. The Father and Son are of the same substance and that is why Jesus could say that when we look at him we see the Father.

How could Jesus be the father and the son of himself at the same time?

Jesus is not the Father.

How could Jesus say that God was in heaven when he himself was in the world with his followers?

Because Jesus is not the Father. Do you not believe that God is omnipresent? How can God be everywhere at the same time?

How could Jesus be God when Jesus himself said that God was greater than him?

Because the Father is higher in office. The Father gives the commands and the Son carries them out, but they are of the same substance.

How could Jesus be God when he himself says that he was powerless and he depended on God's help and permission?

Because the Father is higher in office and gives commands to the Son and he carries them out.

How could Jesus be the son of God when the Bible itself declares that Jesus is the son of man throughout the NT?

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man. The Son of Man is a divine figure.

In the NT Jesus is a servant of God but the Christians insist that Jesus is God ..

Christians say that Jesus is the incarnate Word of the One God.

How can a servant be a master of his master?

The Father is higher in office. The Father issues the commands and the Son carries them out, but they are of the same substance.

Jesus said, "whoever says [to his brother], "you fool! shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matthew 5:22). Yet He Himself said to the scribes and Pharisees, "Fools and blind!" (Matthew 23:17).

There are good reasons why there is a strong difference between the two uses of the term "fool." First, this is another example of the principle that the same word can be used with different meanings in different contexts. For instance, the word "dog" can be used of a canine animal or a detested person.

Second, in Matthew 5, it is used in the context of someone who is "angry" with his brother, indicating a hatred. Jesus harbored no hatred toward those to whom he applied the term. So, his use of the term "fool" does not violate Jesus' prohibition against calling others a fool.

Third, technically speaking, Jesus only commanded that a "brother" not be called a "fool," not an unbeliever. In fact, the scriptural description of a fool is one who "has said in his heart, "There is no God." See Psalm 14:1. In view of this, you can see the seriousness of calling a brother a fool; it is tantamount to calling him an unbeliever. So, when He who "knew what was in man" (cf. John 2:25) called unbelievers "fools," it was a most appropriate description of what they really were.

<>"Whatsoever you ask the Father in My name He will give you." He most assuredly does, but we still do not have a carte blanche. To ask God for anything in the name of Jesus Christ, it must be in keeping with what He is. To ask in Christ's name is to ask as though Christ Himself were asking. Therefore, we can only ask for what Christ Himself would ask. It is therefore necessary to set aside our own will and accept God's. Jesus says in John 8:29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." If we do as Jesus did, we are sure to receive answers as He did. He adds in John 11:41-42, "Father, I thank you that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me."

We must come away with the realization that prayer is not dictating to God, but a humble and heartfelt expression of our attitude of dependency and need. Because of this, the one who truly prays is submissive to God's will, content with Him supplying his need according to the dictates of His sovereign pleasure. The result of this, combined with the infusion of God's attitudes and thoughts as we draw near to Him, will work to create us in His image.

<>Frequently, the prevailing idea of many is that we come to God and ask Him for something we want, expecting Him to give it if we have enough faith. But this is actually degrading to God! This popular belief reduces God to a servant�our servant, like a genie in a bottle�performing our pleasures and granting our desires. Prayer is worshipfully coming to Him, humbly acknowledging His sovereign authority and loving wisdom, telling Him our need, committing our way to Him, and then patiently allowing Him to deal with our request as it seems best to Him. This does not mean we should not confidently present our needs to God as we see them, but then we should leave it with Him to deal with in His time and manner. Remember, He already knows what He wants to accomplish and when.

Annie

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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 8:55am

[/QUOTE]

AnnieTwo wrote:

Where have I slandered Islam?

Have you forgotten what you have done? Here are your quotes: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4968&PN=1&TPN=6 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4968& ; ; ;PN=1&TPN=6

And I have been a Christian for many years and I see no contradictions in the Bible. I chose Christianity and I did not chose it blindly. And I am not an idiot either. Now that we have that settled...

My point Mishmish is that the Christians have answers for what non-Christians see as contradictions in the Bible and Muslims have answers for what non-Muslims see as contradictions in the Qur'an.

I am a little dismayed that you as a Moderator would let the kind of posts posted by AbRah continue. We must learn to ask questions of each other and making a big long list of "contradictions" along with rather insulting remarks is not the way to go. These kinds of posts will not improve the relationship between Muslims and Christians and Jews.

You can google: Contradictions in the Qur'an and come up with lists; the same way you can for the Bible. If you haven't seen any of them, here are just a few that some say are contradictions in the Qur'an:

Which one was created first? As you will see in the verses below, Allah at one time says that Earth was created first and another time he says that the Heavens were created first.

· Quran-2:29: It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heavens and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….

· Quran- 79:27-30: Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth

Now, does it match modern science ? Do you believe that, Earth was created first, and after that, God created Heaven ? Does modern science tell us that ? Or that there are SEVEN firmaments (layers)? Modern science tells us that, actually there is no such thing as a firmament or any roof over us, it is only a space with no known boundary at all. These verses simply reinforce the ancient idea of a ROOF over us which is called the SKY! How funny!

Sun-set and Sun-rise

The Quran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

· Quran-18:86: Till, when he (the traveler Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…

· Quran- 18:90: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.

There are serious scientific errors here. Firstly, it is a scientifically accepted fact that the Sun never goes down into a muddy spring. Secondly, this seems to presuppose a FLAT Earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting “far away.” It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the Sun sets and in his second journey THE PLACE where it rises.

A Resting Place for the Sun?

· Quran-36:38: And the Sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

· Quran-36:39: And for the moon, We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled palm leaf.

· Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

Allah is indeed a great scientist. Where are the Sun and the moon situated? Can anybody tell me how they could collide/meet/overtake each other ? Are the Sun and moon neighbors to each other? I have the answer for this error: Ancient Allah saw (through observations with the naked eye) the Sun and moon travelling from east to west seemingly in the same part of the sky and on the same path. Yet they did not collide and continued to cause day and night, etc. Allah could hardly imagine that all these phenomena are simply due to Earth’s rotation and NOT by the Sun’s rotation. The Sun is stationary for Earth, because the Earth is stuck in the Sun’s Gravity, just as we are stuck in the Earth’ gravity. Allah never says anywhere in the whole Quran THAT THE EARTH ROTATES. Perhaps Allah could not feel Earth’s rotation.

A Resting Place for the Sun WAS CONFIRMED BY HADITHS (?)

· Sahih Bukhari Hadiths: Abzur Ghifari (ra) narrated: one day Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asked me, “Abzar do you know after setting where does the Sun go?” I replied, I do not know, only Allah’s apostle could say better. Then the Prophet (SA) replied, “After setting, the Sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh and waits for Allah’s command for rising again in the East. Day will come when sun will not get permission to rise again and Qeyamot will fall upon earth”.

Can anybody tell me what it is? It was the superstitious belief of ancient people reflected in the Quran and Hadiths by Allah. A 10-year-old boy would not tell such a fairy-tale today.

Why Allah created Stars:

· Quran gives us further scientific knowledge by telling us that the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils:

· Quran-67:5: And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…

· Quran-37:6-8: We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.

Thus, the stars are nothing but missiles to throw at devils so that they may not eavesdrop on the heavenly council. Once again we find how Allah was high on his superstitious weirdness.

Sky/Heaven is Nothing but A ROOF or Canopy over the Earth:

· Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

· Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

· Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky ( heavens ) as roof (canopy) well guarded…

· Quran-2: 22: Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy

Modern science tells us- the Earth is entirely surrounded by space and there is no boundary even if we go billions of trillions of miles in any direction. The question is: If there is no sky above us then how in the world does the question of pillars come in? Do we really have a roof above us? Is there a canopy (Shamiaa’na) above the earth? In most Bengali translations of the Quran all Maulanas write: Allah akashke samiaana bannei-ese.

The Quran claims Allah gives rain from above! Ordinary People consider Allah as residing in the sky above the earth. But in cosmological science there is no up or down, that is, earth revolves and there is no fixed above or below for the earth. Every direction in outer space can be up or down. Are mountains there to prevent the earth from shaking? Give me a break!

Once again Allah considered the sky as a roof over the earth which will break/be shattered during Doomsday

· Quran-78::19: And the heavens (sky) Shall be broken (opened) as if there were doors opens…

· Quran-82:01: When the Sky is cleft asunder

· Quran-69:16: And the sky will be Rent asunder, for it will that day be flimsy(soft)

· Quran-81: 2: When the stars fall, losing their luster.

Yousuf Ali comments in his Tafsir: The beautiful blue sky overhead (which we take for granted in sunshine) will be shattered to pieces. Modern science tells us that there is no such thing as a roof, sky or any canopy over the earth, rather all around the Earth is limitless space. Only Allah knows what will break/get shattered or will get soft/flimsy or how doors will open - there are no walls, so where will doors come from? In some Ayats Allah threatened kafirs by saying: “I (Allah) will throw broken pieces of sky over your head.”

Sun and Moon Rotates:

· Quran-31: 29: Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; That He has subjected the Sun and moon (to His law), each running its course for a term (time) appointed.

· Quran-21: 33: It is He who created the Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them swim (float) along in its own course.

Ayats mentioned above could be found over and over again and again in almost every page of the Quran. This is because Allah, standing in the open Arab desert, saw very well that every morning the SUN was rising from the east and gradually (at the appointed time) setting to the west, and as a result, day and night follow. Allah actually shared this misconception (the Sun moving) of pre-historic people. Every time Allah speaks of the Sun & Moon, he referred to Day & Night, as if it is due to the Sun’s movement that day and night follows. But surprisingly, all the hypocritical Mullahs give false credit to Allah by saying: Look, the Quran described the Sun’s movement 1400 years ago, which modern science only found out now. In the real world, the Sun takes 225 million years to make just one complete circle through the galaxy. And obviously this movement of the Sun has nothing to do with DAY & NIGHT of the earth. Actually, the Sun is stationary for the earth in a real sense, because the Earth is stuck in the giant gravitational force of the Sun. The Earth also moves along with the Sun wherever it goes, just the way that we are stuck to the Earth’s gravitational force and do not feel Earth’s movement at all. Why then, was Allah referring to the Sun’s movement again and again? I have already mentioned above, why Allah was mistaken about the Sun’s movements. Now dishonest Mullahs are claiming that this is science here. I wonder why Allah has to mention about the Sun’s 225 million year journey to tell about day and night? What does the Sun’s movement have to do with the day and night?

Earth is Spread Out Like a Carpet (Flat)

· Quran-15:19: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;

· Quran-78: 6-7: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

Allah was sure that the Earth is flat like a carpet and that mountains are there to anchor the earth so that the Earth does not shake with us. Allah is really an excellent scientist.

Here in this Verse, Allah Challenges People: Who Can Tell Whether the Conceived is Male or Female?

· Quran-31:34: Verily the knowledge of the Hour is With God (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He who knows what is in the wombs of mothers….

Who does not believe the fact that, actually mankind can predict very accurately (99.5%) when rain will fall and can predict (99.8%) the sex of the child inside a mother’s womb? Scientists also predict that, in the next five years weather predictions will be successfully correct almost 100%. Perhaps Allah could not imagine this.

Man is Created From Clotted blood?

· Quran-23:14: Then fashioned We the drop (semen) a CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD then fashioned We the clot a little lump (fetus), fashioned We the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators.

(Bengali translations of the Quran read: “Zamaa’t Raokto theeke Manoosh banieesi” And this Ayat has been repeated again and again throughout the Quran)

· Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned…

· Quran-96:2: Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood

There are serious scientific problems here:

A blood clot can not grow into anything. This idea came from the Greeks. Aristotle erroneously believed that humans are originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. The Quran’s assertion on the clot (alaqa) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood which is seen to emerge (much of which comes from the mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarriage. Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had some thirteen wives it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages.

Modern science tells us that the formation of human embryo is a seamless continuation from conception to birth, hence there are no hard-and-fast boundaries of stages as the Quran described. The Quran described 4 stages which matches exactly with Galenic description of the development of the human embryo (which was proved wrong by modern science).

Creation of bones and clothing of bones with flesh: According to modern embryologists including Prof. ___Moore of Canada____, the tissue from which bone originates, known as mesoderm, is the same tissue as that from which muscle (flesh) develops. Thus bone and muscles begin to develop simultaneously, rather than sequentially (as the Quran tells us). Moreover, most of the muscle tissue that we human have is laid down before birth, but bones continue to develop and calcify (strengthen with calcium) right into one’s teenage years. So it would be more accurate if the Quran had said that muscles started to develop at the same time as bones, but completed their development earlier. The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely wrong/false, but was directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen’s hypothesis.

Also, the idea of saying: “made into bones and clothed the bones with muscle” came from the technique of making animal statues (Moorthy) out of rod and cement or mud. People usually make the skeleton (out of rod or stick) first and, then cover it up with cement or mud. This is scarcely a scientific description of embryonic development. It is rather a description of a layman.

Which one is correct?

· Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….

· Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

· Quran-9:5: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….

· Quran-47:4: When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….

· Quran-2:191: And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

· Quran-8: 65: O Apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight…(against) unbelievers.

Very often apologetics claim that, Islam is a religion of peace and there is no compulsion. Yet, punishment of an apostate in Islam is, of course, death penalty.

In Many Ayats Allah Claimed That, He Has Given the Quran in Easy and Clear Language so that, it will not be difficult to understand by ordinary Arabs.

· Quran-44:58: Verily, We have made This Quran easy in the tongue, in order that they may give heed.

No matter which translation of the Quran we read, the Quranic materials remain the same to us and every sentence is self-explanatory. It does not take a rocket scientist to comprehend the message Allah wanted to transmit for Arabs. Yet, bigoted Mullahs will always blame translators for Quranic contradictions/errors/inconsistencies etc. and will try to find lame excuses to cover up Allah’s ignorance.

Comments:

The Holy Quran is full of inaccuracies, contradictions, inconsistencies, redundancies, a lack of chronologies or chapters, grammatical errors etc. One can find hundreds of contradictions/errors/inconsistencies in the Holy Quran and the above mentioned ayats are just selected samples from the Quran.

Mishmish, I edited out a sentence that I thought unacceptable for this site. I am sure that the Muslims have answers to all of these "contradictions."

As I pointed out, the Christians have answers too.

Annie

All of your quotes were effectively refuted by Mishmish! Now I dare you to name the sources of your quotes!

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 9:03am

AbRah2006,

That was no slander to Islam. Mishmish asked for what are considered contradictions in the Qur'an and I googled and picked the first organized list I came across. In fact I had to edit some offending words from the article.

All of your quotes were effectively refuted by Mishmish! Now I dare you to name the sources of your quotes!

They weren't mine AbRah. Why are you having trouble with this?

Annie

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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 9:24am

I have been following you AnnieTwo since you first came here and I find that it is you who like to slander Islam by making false allegations against Islam...You and Fred behave the same way. Can you please name your sources that you quote to degrade Islam? I want to know the anti-Islam websites that you quote to degrade Quran.
abrah - i named sources and gave quotations on the other thread - they were from the books of shariah law - for which of course you have no answer, as they were written by muslim scholars, not like you. i also posted the pact of the "righteous caliph" umar, to which you have also no answer

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 9:48am

[QUOTE=AnnieTwo]

George said:

AbRah,

AnnieTwo said: You are a perfect example of a Muslim who degrades Christianity and Christians. Anyone reading your posts could see that. Using Osama Abdullah's sites is a good example. I just read your post where you call Jesus a hypocrite.

My response: http://www.answering-Christianity.com - www.answering-Christianity.com is a good website that has efectively and effeciently refuted all the lies of Christian missionaries of anti-Islam Christian websites! I know you are very angry with Osama Abdullah because he has expose the lies of anti-Islam Christian websites that shamelessly insult, degrade, slander Islam everyday! Fredi is a good example of Christians who degrade, insult and slander Islam by repeating his wild claims against Islam eventhough we Muslims have effectively and effeciently refuted his wild claims in his thread no compulsion - the latest......

In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of Allah and he is neither God nor the son of God but your Bible slanders him by making contradictory statements against Jesus so Jesus is a hypocrite according to your Bible. Since you Christians claim that Jesus is the Word of God , contradictory statements of the Bible reflect Jesus as the Word of God.

Did Jesus and God contradict their own word? Jesus is a righteous prophet of God so he would not contradict the Word of God so who did invent the contradictory statements of the Bible? Answer: The keepers of the Bible ! What does these contradictions mean? The Bible is corrupt:

The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

My response: Jesus of Islam is not the same as the Jesus in the Bible.

In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of God for he is a righteous man who calls the Jews to worship Allah the One and Only. Jesus is neither God nor the son of God for Jesus is a servant of Allah.

AnnieTwo said: Jesus is a great prophet. The Jews already worshipped one God. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was a servant to the Father while on earth.

My response: Jesus is not the son of God for God has no sons! Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless upon them) said that God was ONE and ONLY so God has no sons and there are no other gods beside Him!

Christians claim that what is unique in the case of Jesus, is that he is the only begotten Son of God, while the others are merely �sons of God�. However, God is recorded as saying to Prophet David, in Psalms 2:7, �I will tell the decree of the Lord: He said to me, �You are my son, today I have begotten you.� � This contradiction has invalidated the Christian claim that Jesus is the son of God. How can the Bible contradict itself if it is the Word of God? Had the God of the Bible forgotten or change His mind about the begotten sons?

It should also be noted that nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus actually call himself �Son of God�. Instead, he is recorded to have repeatedly called himself �Son of man� (e.g. Luke 9:22) innumerable times. And in Luke 4:41, he actually rejected being called �Son of God�: �And demons also came out of many, crying, �You are the Son of God!� But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.�

Since the Hebrews believed that God is One, and had neither wife nor children in any literal sense, it is obvious that the expression �son of God� merely meant to them �Servant of God�; one who, because of his faithful service, was close and dear to God, as a son is to a father. Christians who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In their heritage, �son of God� signified an incarnation of a god or someone born of a physical union between male and female gods. When the Church cast aside its Hebrew foundations, it adopted the pagan concept of �son of God�, which was entirely different from the Hebrew usage.

Consequently, the use of the term �son of God� should only be understood from the Semitic symbolic sense of a �servant of God�, and not in the pagan sense of a literal offspring of God. In the four Gospels, Jesus is recorded as saying: �Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.�Matthew 5:9.

Likewise, Jesus� use of the term abba, �dear father�, should be understood similarly. There is a dispute among New Testament scholars as to precisely what abba meant in Jesus� time and also as to how widely it was in use by other Jewish sects of that era.

James Barr has recently argued forcefully that it did not have the specially intimate sense that has so often been attributed to it, but that it simply meant �father�.Journal of Theological Studies, vol. 39 and Theology, vol. 91, no. 741. To think of God as �our heavenly Father� was by no means new, for in the Lord�s prayer he is reported to have taught his disciples to address God in this same familiar way.

Students of the Bible will easily notice that the title Son of God is often used in Matthew without agreement from Mark and Luke. For example, what did the passers-by say at the scene of the cross? Their saying is reported in Mark 15:29-30 and also in Matthew 27:40. If you compare the two reports, you will notice that Matthew has added a phrase to the effect that Jesus is the Son of God.

We find another example of this in Matthew 14:22-33. Jesus had just miraculously fed five thousand people with five loaves and two fish. Then he sent his disciples to the other side of the sea. After praying to God, Jesus went out miraculously walking on the sea to meet his disciples. Eventually he got into the boat with them. How did the disciples react to all this? Mark and Matthew give us two different answers. Mark says:

�And they were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened� (Mark 6:51-52).

In Matthew, however, the disciples were not perplexed at all. They had it all figured out and they knew exactly what to do. Matthew says:

�And those in the boat worshipped him, saying, �Truly you are the Son of God�� (Matthew 14:33).

Again, Matthew has improved the story to show that Jesus is the Son of God.

Do you see how the writers of the Gospel of Matthew corrupt the Gospel improving the story to show that Jesus is the Son of God?

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). They believed that he was the son of God in the sense of a righteous person. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew 23:1-9). Therefore God has no sons!

A common mistake among people is their thinking of God as a super human being somewhere up in the sky. Then they attribute all kinds of human activity and relationships to God as if He was like human beings. Once it is clear that humans have children, such people conclude that God has children too. But God declares this idea to be false.

God tells us in His Book that there is nothing like Him (see surah 42:11). God also says that there is nothing comparable unto Him (112:4). Surely, God is not a physical being. God tells us:

"Vision comprehends Him not, but He comprehends (all) vision� (Qur�an 6:103).

God declares that those who impute sons and daughters to Him do so falsely and without knowledge (see surah 6:100). The Qur�an appeals to our reason by saying:

�The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child when he has no consort, when He created all things and is Aware of all things?� (6:101)

This is in obvious reply to those who may claim that God has a literal son or daughter, terms which in human languages mean the offspring of a pair.

Some may say, however, that God can produce a child without having a consort. In that case, you are not speaking of a child but a creature of God. In any case, God declares that He begets not, nor is He begotten (surah 112:3).

Some may say that God has adopted a child. God declares that this idea too lacks reason. Since everyone already belongs to God, what then is the point of adopting? God says:

�And they say: Allah has taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth are His. All are subservient unto Him. The originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: Be! and it is� (2:116-117).

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 9:54am

AnnieTwo wrote:

AbRah2006,

That was no slander to Islam. Mishmish asked for what are considered contradictions in the Qur'an and I googled and picked the first organized list I came across. In fact I had to edit some offending words from the article.

All of your quotes were effectively refuted by Mishmish! Now I dare you to name the sources of your quotes!

They weren't mine AbRah. Why are you having trouble with this?

Annie

I dare you to name your sources and please don't give me excuses. Please name the rabid anti-Islam Christian websites that you had quoted ! Why do you condone them? Are you afraid to name your sources? You statments have no academic value at all!

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 9:57am

fredifreeloader wrote:

Are you out of your mind? The books of Shariah Law will not slander Quran, Allah ans His messnger! I dare you to name your the rabid anti-Islam Christian websites that you had quoted to slander Islam! Why do you condone them?

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 9:59am

My response: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ - www.answering-Christianity.com is a good website that has efectively and effeciently refuted all the lies of Christian missionaries of anti-Islam Christian websites! I know you are very angry with Osama Abdullah because he has expose the lies of anti-Islam Christian websites that shamelessly insult, degrade, slander Islam everyday! Fredi is a good example of Christians who degrade, insult and slander Islam by repeating his wild claims against Islam eventhough we Muslims have effectively and effeciently refuted his wild claims in his thread no compulsion - the latest......

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

My response: Jesus of Islam is not the same as the Jesus in the Bible.

In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of God for he is a righteous man who calls the Jews to worship Allah the One and Only. Jesus is neither God nor the son of God for Jesus is a servant of Allah.

AnnieTwo said: Jesus is a great prophet. The Jews already worshipped one God. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was a servant to the Father while on earth.

Do you see how the writers of the Gospel of Matthew corrupt the Gospel improving the story to show that Jesus is the Son of God?

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:01am

I still find this highly amusing. If one of us uses Answering Islam, our post is deleted for its biased nature, yet Answering Christianity is allowed????? If one is banned, both should be.

Also AbRah, you cannot refute and arguement simply by saying a sight is anti islamic. Of course if a source is refuting a claim made in Islam, then its not going to be a "Pro Islamic" site. Simply stating its anti doesn't make it wrong or right.....instead please provide a proper counter arguement.....but do it in your own words. All I see you do is cutting and pasting other peoples arguements, meanwhile, Mishmish, Fredi, George, BMZ and the other formulate their posts personally and with their sources clearly researched. You ignore any arguement that proves you wrong and continue to degrade Christian beliefs, using words like Silly, stupid, lie.....

If the Christians here did that to you they would be banned.

Mishmish,

I know you are watching these posts. I am formally complaining about the language and tone used by AbRah2006 in his arguements against Christianity. BMZ and yourself are excellent examples of how to have a respectful interfaith debate, but I cannot continue to sit here and have the Apostles and Disciples called liars even if that is what Islam believes. I try to be very respectful of those things I don't believe about Islam, please remind AbRah of Islamic Adab and the proper respect of all faiths here.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:10am

Angela wrote:

I still find this highly amusing. If one of us uses Answering Islam, our post is deleted for its biased nature, yet Answering Christianity is allowed????? If one is banned, both should be.

If the Christians here did that to you they would be banned.

Mishmish,

Hey Angela you are very biased! You never question Fredi, AnnieTwo etc whenever they say something that may harm the reputation of Islam. Where are you when they do that? Can't you read what they have been saying? Where are your objectivity? WHERE? NOWHERE!

It is just like the cartoons that are published by the Christians to slander and insult the prophet Muhammad. It is an irony the same Christians will not publish the cartoons of Jesus to slander jesus nor touch the sensitive HOLOCAUST!

All researches are based on previous researches unless you do a new one! Quoting statements of other sources is not wrong for we are doing it in the universities!

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:18am

Why don't I refute them????? I have on several occasions, when they go out of line. I have pointed out to them on several occasions. But only if they say something I disagree with or have proof of a different source. I'm Christian, I'm not going to take your use of the Quran as the end all, be all in any arguement.

Also, I'm not a Mainstream Christian, so I'm not always able to really enter some of the contentions since my Church teaches different doctrines unrelated to the arguement.

And, as for quoting statements from other sources, there is a fine line between thought and plagarism......you don't add any of your own ideas, you just use everyone elses. This is what we called a drone in my school. Or regurgitation......one swallows the work of others without exploring it and then throws it up whenever they need it. A true scholar learns the previous work and then researches it for himself. Otherwise we'd still think the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:26am

angela - answering-christianity has been banned, yet abrah has now posted it twice without rebuke!!

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:28am

I know Fredi...I know.....but what can we do? Just complain. They banned the Anti Mormon sites that were being used against me. Frankly, no site should be used if its sole purpose is to spread misinformation about any religion. Islam, Christianity or otherwise.

I've been trying to find reliable dialogue sites, its very hard on any front.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:35am

Angela wrote:

Also, I'm not a Mainstream Christian, so I'm not always able to really enter some of the contentions since my Church teaches different doctrines unrelated to the arguement.

Then why the so-called professors of the universities quote so many sources in their books? Are they the drones too? Is that what you call plagarism? We have to quote other resources to support our researches unless we do a new research! I think you also quote so many sources to support your points! I am not a drone and you are pre-judging me by accusing me of plagarism....Have you done a complete research to prove that you are right? What are your sources?

Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:36am

AbRah2006 wrote:

fredifreeloader wrote:

Are you out of your mind? no you are the one who has lost the script completely - the quotations i gave on the other thread (no compulsion) were from shariah law -(prove otherwise if you can) that is what i have based my questions on - The books of Shariah Law will not slander Quran, Allah ans His messnger! I dare you to name your the rabid anti-Islam Christian websites that you had quoted to slander Islam! Why do you condone them? look abrah, when i read you, i see a rabid anti-christianity muslim, who frequents anti-christian websites (unless of course youve produced all that stuff yourself) - answer my questions on the other thread or stay out of it

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16

Posted By: George
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:40am

Moderators:

Abrah said:

Abrah is slandering the Christian religion. How can you let him call Jesus a hypocrite and let him say that the Holy Bible slanders him?

Peace

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:41am

fredifreeloader wrote:

AbRah2006 wrote:

fredifreeloader wrote:

Hey Fredi....Do you know that I always frequent Christian websites and I also read the christian articles? And I find that many of them are biased against Islam and they are attacking Islam mercilessly! You Fredi reflect their writings!

Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:42am

AhmadJoyia
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Posted: 04 April 2006 at 11:52am \| IP Logged	http://www.islamicity.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=37704&TPN=10">

Well there are so many directions in which one can go to reply the basic questions are that being projected here, I would start with the assertions of bro Fredi on link of Prophet Ismail with Prophet Mohammad and concommitently with Sis Katherine's allusion as wilderness of Paran could be anywhere but not including Mecca. For this they have taken support of various biblical references and modern map of the area with superimposed ancient territory. Whatever their source of info, however, probably the source didn't update it with the latest archaeological findings. Here is a link for such an update where they assert that the traditional location of Mt. Sianai is not the same as their findings prove it to be, but in close vicinity of Suadi Arabia, where Mecca city is. http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html - http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html

With this new information, I think, its time to revise all biblical doctrines that my Christian and Jewish brothers have built up till now. Now to link the case of 'wilderness of Paran' with mecca, the work has already been done at ***. I hope this shall serve you well for all you need to ask, God's Willing. Peace.

Br. Ahmad, if it was not allowed for someone to site the link to the one website here, you should not site the link to it's counter website here either.

Edited by Khadija1021 on 04 April 2006 at 12:31pm

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this is where answering christianity was banned

-------------
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16

Posted By: George
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:44am

AbRah,

You seem to be incapable of understanding Christianity.

AbRah wrote:

The "son of God" is a title for the Messiah. In of itself it does not mean divinity. God is ONE and ONLY God and there is no other God beside him.

What do you think Christians believe? That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus?

Is that what the Qur'an says?

Peace

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:47am

AbRah2006 wrote:

Then why the so-called professors of the universities quote so many sources in their books? Are they the drones too? Is that what you call plagarism? We have to quote other resources to support our researches unless we do a new research! I think you also quote so many sources to support your points! I am not a drone and you are pre-judging me by accusing me of plagarism....Have you done a complete research to prove that you are right? What are your sources?

Perhaps you went to a community college, I went to an exclusive private college. Many of my Professors were the ones writing the books. They may have quoted from others, but they always added their own thoughts and lectured from researched and prepared lessons. I never once had a college professor stand in front of the class and read aloud the chapter of a book for our lesson. Also, I never had a professor completely shut down a student by simply saying. Well that's not what this book says.....

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:51am

Angela wrote:

Perhaps you went to a community college, I went to an exclusive private college. Many of my Professors were the ones writing the books. They may have quoted from others, but they always added their own thoughts and lectured from researched and prepared lessons. I never once had a college professor stand in front of the class and read allowed the chapter of a book for our lesson. Also, I never had a professor completely shut down a student by simply saying. Well that's not what this book says.....

I really pity you for making a false statement against me. They may have quoted from others, but they always added their own thoughts and lectured from researched and prepared lessons. Yes I do the same thing so what?

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 10:54am

No, you do not do the same thing.....

You start off by saying Let me prove you wrong and then you just cut and paste.

Besides, you've proven you cannot understand simple concepts like allegory, poetic prose and historical commentary.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 11:01am

Angela wrote:

No, you do not do the same thing.....

You start off by saying Let me prove you wrong and then you just cut and paste.

Besides, you've proven you cannot understand simple concepts like allegory, poetic prose and historical commentary.

Yes I don't understand simple concepts like 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. What kind of biblical mathematics is this? All I know is One means 1 not 3 ! I wonder why there are some so-called educated people who force themselves to believe that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1

Even children will say that 1+ 1 + 1 = 3 !

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 11:28am

Actually AbRAh....I'm LDS, 1+1+1 does in Fact equaly 3.....

Heavenly Father = 1 Person

Jesus Christ = 1 Person

Holy Ghost = 1 person

3 = common purpose but does not equal 1 being

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 11:40am

AbRah2006 wrote:

Angela wrote:

No, you do not do the same thing.....

You start off by saying Let me prove you wrong and then you just cut and paste.

Besides, you've proven you cannot understand simple concepts like allegory, poetic prose and historical commentary.

Even children will say that 1+ 1 + 1 = 3 !

AbRah, it is not 1+1+1=3; it is 1x1x1=1

-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 12:03pm

AnnieTwo wrote:

AbRah2006 wrote:

Angela wrote:

No, you do not do the same thing.....

You start off by saying Let me prove you wrong and then you just cut and paste.

Besides, you've proven you cannot understand simple concepts like allegory, poetic prose and historical commentary.

Even children will say that 1+ 1 + 1 = 3 !

AbRah, it is not 1+1+1=3; it is 1x1x1=1

I've never seen the 1x1x1=3 analogy....nice comeback. I may not agree entirely with Trinitarian Doctrine, but I applaud the creative comeback.

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 12:23pm

Angela wrote:

AnnieTwo wrote:

AbRah2006 wrote:

Angela wrote:

No, you do not do the same thing.....

You start off by saying Let me prove you wrong and then you just cut and paste.

Besides, you've proven you cannot understand simple concepts like allegory, poetic prose and historical commentary.

Even children will say that 1+ 1 + 1 = 3 !

AbRah, it is not 1+1+1=3; it is 1x1x1=1

I've never seen the 1x1x1=3 analogy....nice comeback. I may not agree entirely with Trinitarian Doctrine, but I applaud the creative comeback.

This is how it is explained, Angela, and it is not creative. You can find explanations all over the web for the logic in the mathmatics. 1+1+1=3 is the Mormon view and not the view of Orthodox Christianity.

Annie

-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 12:30pm

Sorry, just looked over my post it should be 1x1x1=1

But, your right about how we view things. Which is why I laughed when AbRAh made his clain I couldn't do basic math.

He doesn't understand Christianity enough to know there are completely differing viewpoints on it.

But, this isn't a thread on the Trinitarian Doctrine, there are already a few in interfaith, I think for our own necks we should avoid making this one too.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 2:27pm

George wrote:

AbRah,

You seem to be incapable of understanding Christianity.

AbRah wrote:

The "son of God" is a title for the Messiah. In of itself it does not mean divinity. God is ONE and ONLY God and there is no other God beside him.

What do you think Christians believe? That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus?

Is that what the Qur'an says?

Peace

Is that what you think George? Why do you think Christians believe that God had sex with Mary? Is that what your Bible says George? Hey Georger why do you call Mary as Virgin Mary if you Bible says that she had married Joseph?

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 2:50pm

AbRah2006 wrote:

Because she was a Virgin and Betrothed to Joseph when she was given the Annunciation by Gabriel.

Matthew 1:18-25

18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,^[c] because he will save his people from their sins."

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"^[d]�which means, "God with us."

24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 3:03pm

[QUOTE=AnnieTwo]

In Christianity Christians worship Jesus as their God and at the same time they claim that Jesus is the son of God...What a silly statement!

AnnieTwo said: Christians worship only one God and that one God manifested Himself in Jesus.

My response: If Christians worship God and God manifests Himself in Jesus that means Christians are worshiping Jesus and God so you worship two gods instead of ONE God and you are worshiping a man whose name is Jesus. Don't you remember how Paul call Jesus? He called Jesus as THE MAN Jesus and he did not call Jesus THE GOD Jesus! By worshiping a man you Christians are just like the pagans who worship men like the Emperor of Japan, Pharoah, Buddha etc.

AnnieTwo said: The Father and Son are of the same substance and that is why Jesus could say that when we look at him we see the Father.

My response: You are insulting your mind by saying such things to me!

How can you claim that the Son and the Father are of the same sunstance when Jesus is made of flesh and blood? How can Jesus say that when we look at him we see the Father when God Himself says that none is like Him (Isaiah 46:9) , God is not a man (Numbers 23:19 & 20 ) and Malachi 3:6, "I am the Lord; I change not."?

Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word "god," which can be made plural, as in "gods," or made feminine, as in "goddess." It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.

The One true God is a reflection of the unique concept that Islam associates with God. To a Muslim, Allah is the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing, and nothing is comparable to Him.

The Prophet Muhammad was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Qur'an, which is considered to be the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism. This is chapter 112, which reads:� In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone�.

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 3:11pm

http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/1/27#27 - Gen. 1: 27	( http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/2/27#27 - Moses 2: 27 ) God created man in his own image.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/5/1#1 - Gen. 5: 1	God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/9/6#6 - Gen. 9: 6	in the image of God made he man.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/18/33#33 - Gen. 18: 33	Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/32/30#30 - Gen. 32: 30	I have seen God face to face.
http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/24/10#10 - Ex. 24: 10	they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet.
http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/31/18#18 - Ex. 31: 18	( http://scriptures.lds.org/deut/9/10#10 - Deut. 9: 10 ) written with the finger of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/33/11#11 - Ex. 33: 11	Lord spake unto Moses face to face.
http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/33/23#23 - Ex. 33: 23	thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not.
http://scriptures.lds.org/num/12/8#8 - Num. 12: 8	With him will I speak mouth to mouth.
http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/3/17#17 - Matt. 3: 17	a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son.
http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/4/4#4 - Matt. 4: 4	every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/17/5#5 - Matt. 17: 5	a voice out of the cloud.
http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/24/39#39 - Luke 24: 39	for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/9#9 - John 14: 9	he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
http://scriptures.lds.org/acts/7/56#56 - Acts 7: 56	the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/rom/8/29#29 - Rom. 8: 29	predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.
http://scriptures.lds.org/2_cor/4/4#4 - 2 Cor. 4: 4	Christ, who is the image of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/philip/2/6#6 - Philip. 2: 6	who, being in the form of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/philip/3/21#21 - Philip. 3: 21	our vile body . . . fashioned like unto his glorious body.
http://scriptures.lds.org/col/1/15#15 - Col. 1: 15	Who is the image of the invisible God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/3#3 - Heb. 1: 3	the express image of his person.
http://scriptures.lds.org/james/3/9#9 - James 3: 9	men which are made after the similitude of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/1_jn/3/2#2 - 1 Jn. 3: 2	when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/22/4#4 - Rev. 22: 4	they shall see his face.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 11:37pm

Angela wrote:

http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/1/27#27 - Gen. 1: 27	( http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/2/27#27 - Moses 2: 27 ) God created man in his own image.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/5/1#1 - Gen. 5: 1	God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/9/6#6 - Gen. 9: 6	in the image of God made he man.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/18/33#33 - Gen. 18: 33	Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/32/30#30 - Gen. 32: 30	I have seen God face to face.
http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/24/10#10 - Ex. 24: 10	they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet.
http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/31/18#18 - Ex. 31: 18	( http://scriptures.lds.org/deut/9/10#10 - Deut. 9: 10 ) written with the finger of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/33/11#11 - Ex. 33: 11	Lord spake unto Moses face to face.
http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/33/23#23 - Ex. 33: 23	thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not.
http://scriptures.lds.org/num/12/8#8 - Num. 12: 8	With him will I speak mouth to mouth.
http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/3/17#17 - Matt. 3: 17	a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son.
http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/4/4#4 - Matt. 4: 4	every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/17/5#5 - Matt. 17: 5	a voice out of the cloud.
http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/24/39#39 - Luke 24: 39	for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/9#9 - John 14: 9	he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
http://scriptures.lds.org/acts/7/56#56 - Acts 7: 56	the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/rom/8/29#29 - Rom. 8: 29	predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.
http://scriptures.lds.org/2_cor/4/4#4 - 2 Cor. 4: 4	Christ, who is the image of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/philip/2/6#6 - Philip. 2: 6	who, being in the form of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/philip/3/21#21 - Philip. 3: 21	our vile body . . . fashioned like unto his glorious body.
http://scriptures.lds.org/col/1/15#15 - Col. 1: 15	Who is the image of the invisible God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/3#3 - Heb. 1: 3	the express image of his person.
http://scriptures.lds.org/james/3/9#9 - James 3: 9	men which are made after the similitude of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/1_jn/3/2#2 - 1 Jn. 3: 2	when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/22/4#4 - Rev. 22: 4	they shall see his face.

Thank you very much for exposing the contradiction of the Bible.

Are the robbers, rapists, infidels, terrorists, atheists, hypocrites etc the image of God? Do you mean that your god is a robber, rapist, infidel, terrorist, infidel, hypocrite, atheist etc?

Thank you for exposing the contradictions of the Bible:

Gen. 1: 27, 5:1, and 9:6 contradict Isaiah 46:9 etc that states that none is like God.

Once again thank you for exposing the contradictions of the Bible. Lets us compare your verses with the other verses of the Bible.

We find that

Gen. 32:30 and

Ex. 24: 10 etc contradict the Biblical verses below:

John 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time.

John 6:46

Not that any man hath seen the Father.

1 Timothy 1:17

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.

1 Timothy 6:16

Whom no man hath seen nor can see.

1 John 4:12

No man hath seen God at any time.

Had Moses seen God face to face? "Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. There The Angel Of The Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight - why the bush does not burn up."

The Burning Bush "When The Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"

"And Moses said, "Here I am."

"Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." Then he said, "I am the God of your father, The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac and The God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God." (Exodus 3:1-6)

Quran 20:10

Behold, he saw a fire: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."

Quran 20:11

But when he came to the fire, a voice was heard: "O Moses!

Quran 20:12

"Verily I am thy Lord! therefore (in My presence) put off thy shoes: thou art in the sacred valley Tuwa.

Quran 20:13

"I have chosen thee: listen, then, to the inspiration (sent to thee).

Quran 20:14

"Verily, I am Allah: There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise.

CONCLUSION: The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 12:05am

AnnieTwo wrote:

Angela wrote:

AnnieTwo wrote:

AbRah2006 wrote:

Angela wrote:

No, you do not do the same thing.....

You start off by saying Let me prove you wrong and then you just cut and paste.

Besides, you've proven you cannot understand simple concepts like allegory, poetic prose and historical commentary.

Even children will say that 1+ 1 + 1 = 3 !

AbRah, it is not 1+1+1=3; it is 1x1x1=1

I've never seen the 1x1x1=3 analogy....nice comeback. I may not agree entirely with Trinitarian Doctrine, but I applaud the creative comeback.

My response: I have refuted your wild claims. Please visit http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4983&PN=1&TPN=6 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4983& ;PN=1&TPN=6 if you want to know my answer!

Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 6:54am

AbRah said:

"That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus? "

Inexcusable disrespect! What a sad reference to our Holy Mother. I know Muslims honor Mary too.....so why do you find this sick statement so funny, and why was it permitted to be posted in the first place? I truly do not understand this double standard.

May God Bless Us All.

-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 7:04am

Patty wrote:

AbRah said:

"That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus? "

May God Bless Us All.

My response: I never said "That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus?"

It was George who said:"That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus?"

Hey Patty... you are so desperate that you slander me by claiming falsely that I wrote the nonsensical sentence! You are so pathetic for slandering me. So slanders are your method to kill my personality! Are slanders a part of Christianity? I think so since you show me how you slander me while condoning George!

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 7:05am

Patty,

From you: ["AbRah said:

"That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus? "]

There seems to be a little misunderstanding here. That was written by our good friend George, who was trying to engage AbRah into discussion and wrote it teasingly as a question.

No Muslim would write that kind of remark about dearest Mary.

Please check again.

BMZ

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 7:13am

bmzsp wrote:

Patty,

From you: ["AbRah said:

"That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus? "]

There seems to be a little misunderstanding here. That was written by our good friend George, who was trying to engage AbRah into discussion and wrote it teasingly as a question.

No Muslim would write that kind of remark about dearest Mary.

Please check again.

BMZ

Thank you BMZ for your good deed........May Allah bless and guide and reward you and your families for your good deeds....Ameen.

Posted By: amlhabibi2000
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 7:35am

Actually Muslims themselves seem to be doing a great job at discrediting Islam? What with suicide bombers, Taliban's behavior towards women not allowing them to be educated, have property or any basic rights. I am dismayed that Muslims did not rise to the defence of Afgani women and girls.

Surely when Muslims find behavior that goes against human rights we should do something and at the very least consult our leaders or other world leaders how to turn the behavior around without war.

-------------
Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 7:43am

amlhabibi2000 wrote:

Surely when Muslims find behavior that goes against human rights we should do something and at the very least consult our leaders or other world leaders how to turn the behavior around without war.

I believe that most of your sources are the western media that is biased against Muslims and Islam. Its reports are biased and it will not publish any news that will bring postive effect to Muslims and Islam. If you really want to know what has happened to Afghanistan and its people I suggest you make a research that will include the roles of the US govt and USSR in Afghanistan that cause so much suffering to the Muslims in Afghanistan.

Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 8:27am

Dear AbRah,

Please accept my humble and heartfelt apology. I made a terribly mistake and I honestly wondered why a Muslim would say such a thing about our Holy Mother!

BMZ, thank you so much for point out the error of my ways. I am so ashamed.

George, how could you ever say such a supposedly joking comment about the Mother of God?

Peace to all,

-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.

Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 9:35am

AbRah2006 wrote:

amlhabibi2000 wrote:

�

Actually Muslims themselves seem to be doing a great job at discrediting�Islam?� What with suicide bombers, Taliban's behavior towards women�not allowing them to be educated, have property or any basic rights.� I am dismayed that Muslims did not rise to the defence of Afgani women and girls.

Surely when Muslims find behavior that goes against human rights we should do something and at the very least consult our leaders or other world leaders how to turn the behavior around without war.

�

I believe that most of your sources are the western media that is biased against Muslims and Islam. Its reports are biased and it will not�publish�any news that will bring postive effect to Muslims and Islam. If you really want to know what has happened to Afghanistan and its people I suggest you make a research that will include the roles of the US govt and USSR in Afghanistan that cause so much suffering to the Muslims in Afghanistan.

yea who brought "taliban" to power in first place?

Posted By: salman_s
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 9:43am

ak_m_f wrote:

AbRah2006 wrote:

amlhabibi2000 wrote:

Surely when Muslims find behavior that goes against human rights we should do something and at the very least consult our leaders or other world leaders how to turn the behavior around without war.

yea who brought "taliban" to power in first place?

but what has happened after taliban? thats what abrah is saying....

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 10:04am

Dear Patty,

"BMZ, thank you so much for point out the error of my ways. I am so ashamed.

George, how could you ever say such a supposedly joking comment about the Mother of God? "

You don't have to feel ashamed. George should, he is the bad boy! I don't know what came over, covered him and inspired him to write that?

Posted By: George
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 10:36am

bmzsp wrote:

Patty,

From you: ["AbRah said:

"That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus? "]

There seems to be a little misunderstanding here. That was written by our good friend George, who was trying to engage AbRah into discussion and wrote it teasingly as a question.

No Muslim would write that kind of remark about dearest Mary.

Please check again.

BMZ

Patty, unfortunately, there are many Muslims who believe that Jesus was the biological son of Allah and Mary and they base it on verses in the Qur'an. I run into it all of the time. I saw some of it on this board in some discussion previous to my participation here.

AbRah's comment that God didn't have sons--there is only one God--made me consider that he was one of them. Otherwise, why follow with there is only one God?

You might be interested in reading the discussion I am having with BMZ on this very subject here:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4946&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4946& ;PN=1

BMZ, I have nothing to apologize for. AbRah has the opportunity to explain what he meant by what he said. If he didn't mean biological son, then let him explain.

Peace.

Posted By: George
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 10:38am

Patty wrote:

Dear AbRah,

Please accept my humble and heartfelt apology. I made a terribly mistake and I honestly wondered why a Muslim would say such a thing about our Holy Mother!

BMZ, thank you so much for point out the error of my ways. I am so ashamed.

George, how could you ever say such a supposedly joking comment about the Mother of God?

Peace to all,

Read my previous post and you will know why. It was no joke and I was not talking about Mary. Mary is innocent and pure.

Have you ever read the Qur'an, Patty?

Peace

Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 11:36am

George wrote:

AbRah's comment that God didn't have sons--there is only one God--made me consider that he was one of them. Otherwise, why follow with there is only one God?

George , there is no muslim who believes that Jesus is the son of God. And this is the last time you have used such derogatory remarks: "That God had sex with Mary and out popped a little god named Jesus?" Whether jokingly or in seriousness. This is a warning! You are free to believe what you want but you will NOT be allowed to make nonsense interpretations of the Quran.
Peace.

-------------
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 11:49am

You are damn wrong when you say this, George!

From you to Patty: "Patty, unfortunately, there are many Muslims who believe that Jesus was the biological son of Allah and Mary and they base it on verses in the Qur'an. I run into it all of the time. I saw some of it on this board in some discussion previous to my participation here."

There is not a single Muslim who belives that Jesus was the biological son of God and Mary. There is no verse in Qur'aan to base such nonsense.

Muslims reject that Jesus was the son of God. Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of Mary. That's all. Qur'aan calls him Jesus son of Mary.

To create Jesus was very easy for God. Let us imagine for the sake of discussion that God said,"Let Mary have a child, without any man touching her" and it came to pass.

Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 11:52am

Does anyone here believe Adam was son of God too? Adam did not have a "mother" or a "father". Just wondering....

-------------
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)

Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 11:57am

"I believe that most of your sources are the western media that is biased against Muslims and Islam. Its reports are biased and it will not publish any news that will bring postive effect to Muslims and Islam. If you really want to know what has happened to Afghanistan and its people I suggest you make a research that will include the roles of the US govt and USSR in Afghanistan that cause so much suffering to the Muslims in Afghanistan."

Yes, the war against Russia, the rise of the Mujahideen, and the U.S.'s role in helping them defeat the Russians are all facts. But these facts don't change the fact that the Taliban was not following Islam in it's treatment of people, especially women.

If the Taliban had followed the teachings of the Quran and the examples of the Prophet and the Sahaba, they could have set up a government that would have been a shining example of Islam around the world. They had the chance, no one was interfering to stop them. Instead they became tyrants, forcing more than half of the population of Afghanistan, women, to live in fear, suffer, and at times die, under their rule.

Where is it written in Islam that a widow cannot work to buy food or a woman cannot seek medical help? That it is preferable for them to starve or die from lack of care? Seriously, is this what Islam teaches men on how to treat women and orphans? Who will be punished for every woman and child who starved or died because they were forbidden to see a doctor?

The western media did not perpetrate these actions, they ignored them for a long time. Perhaps if more reporters had been showing what was happening it would have been stopped sooner. But, Afghanistan had nothing our government wanted until 9-11, so no one cared how many women and children starved. Of course, after 9-11 it was a huge scandal and became fodder for the media because it served a purpose. But, you cannot blame the West for the actions of the Taliban. They may have helped them into power, but they didn't force them behave the way they did.

-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)

Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 12:11pm

I don't want to make a big issue out of this, mainly because I feel that is what AbRah would like. However, I just read what he said about me and posted about me under "Comments" I believe. He failed to post my apologies to him, or to post the followup posts which clarified what I was saying to him. Why? Why would he intentionally do this to me? I feel I have been respectful, humble, and polite to everyone here. It was my impression that this forum was originally intended to be a place where Christians and Muslims could have a mature, respectful exchange regarding our beliefs and why we believe what we do. I have no desire to convert anyone. That is not my purpose for being here. I am trying to learn more about Islam, and at the same time explain my Catholic beliefs. We agree on several issues.

I have no real idea of the ages of many of you, but I believe I'm old enough to be a grandmother to most of you. One thing I have learned in my long life is respect. Respect for ALL people. So I do have just one question. Why is AbRah so angry with me....to the point that he is deliberately twisting what I truly said and meant? And why are some of you so eager to believe him, without first checking to see what I actually did say? Can you explain this to me? If you can't do it in a respectful, non-insulting manner, I would prefer you just let it go. Believe what you will. My conscience is clear.

God Bless Each of You.

-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.

Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 12:18pm

Patty,
You misunderstood Abrah and as a result, he misunderstood you. You have apologised for your mistake Alhamdulillah.

Abrah,
Kindly accept her apology and correct your post in comments and complaints section.

Peace.

-------------
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)

Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 12:44pm

Thank you so very much Amah. You are quite fair. I appreciate this very much in a person.

May The God of Abraham Bless Us All!

-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 03 June 2006 at 11:19pm

Mishmish wrote:

My response: One of the top lies about the Afghanistan war: "The U.S. is trying to liberate the people of Afghanistan from Taliban tyranny."

Reality: The U.S., Russia, and Iran have been aiding a rough coalition of armed groups called the Northern Alliance. The Northern Alliance's fighters are drawn mainly from ethnic minority groups in Afghanistan who have been persecuted by the Taliban. But their record is also a bloody one. Groups like the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA), which have been fighting against fundamentalism and for democracy in Afghanistan for years, have publicly stated that the fundamentalist gangsters of the Northern Alliance are not an acceptable alternative to the fundamentalist gangsters of the Taliban. No wonder: Human Rights Watch implicates the Northern Alliance in "indiscriminate aerial bombardment and shelling, direct attacks on civilians, summary executions, rape, persecution on the basis of religion or ethnicity, the recruitment and use of children as soldiers, and the use of antipersonnel landmines." By now everyone knows that Osama bin Laden was among the mujihadin recruited by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Meet the next generation.

Confronted with mounting evidence, the US Administration can no longer deny its links to Osama. While the CIA admits that Osama bin Laden was an "intelligence asset" during the Cold War, the relationship is said to "go way back". Most news reports consider that these Osama-CIA links belong to the "bygone era" of the Soviet-Afghan war. They are invariably viewed as "irrelevant" to an understanding of present events. Lost in the barrage of recent history, the role of the CIA in supporting and developing international terrorist organisations during the Cold war and its aftermath is casually ignored or downplayed by the Western media.

The US government states: Yes, We did support Him, but "He Went Against Us"

A blatant example of media distortion is the so-called "blowback" thesis: "intelligence assets" are said to "have gone against their sponsors"; "what we've created blows back in our face."United Press International (UPI), 15 September 2001.

In a twisted logic, the US government and the CIA are portrayed as the ill-fated victims:

The sophisticated methods taught to the Mujahideen, and the thousands of tons of arms supplied to them by the US - and Britain - are now tormenting the West in the phenomenon known as `blowback', whereby a policy strategy rebounds on its own devisers. (Source:The Guardian, London, 15 September 2001)

The US media, nonetheless, concedes that "the Taliban's coming to power [in 1995] is partly the outcome of the U.S. support of the Mujahideen, the radical Islamic group, in the 1980s in the war against the Soviet Union". (Source: United Press International (UPI), 15 September 2001)

But it also readily dismisses its own factual statements and concludes in chorus, that the CIA had been tricked by a deceitful Osama. It's like "a son going against his father".

The "blowback" thesis is a fabrication. The evidence amply confirms that the CIA never severed its ties to the "Islamic Militant Network". Since the end of the Cold War, these covert intelligence links have not only been maintained, they have in become increasingly sophisticated.

New undercover initiatives financed by the Golden Crescent drug trade were set in motion in Central Asia, the Caucasus and the Balkans. Pakistan's military and intelligence apparatus (controlled by the CIA) essentially "served as a catalyst for the disintegration of the Soviet Union and the emergence of six new Muslim republics in Central Asia." (Michel Chossudovsky, Who is Osama bin Laden, Centre for Research on Globalisation, 12 September 2001, http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html. )

Do you want to know more about the roles of the US govt in Afghanistan and all over the world? Please do your own researches that will open your mind and eyes. You will be shocked by your discovery!The American people have been deliberately and consciously misled by their government into supporting a major military adventure which affects our collective future.

Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 04 June 2006 at 12:06am

This is getting away from the original topic. If you want to discuss the Taliban, please open a new thread in World or Current Events.

-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 04 June 2006 at 5:46am

amah wrote:

George wrote:

AbRah's comment that God didn't have sons--there is only one God--made me consider that he was one of them. Otherwise, why follow with there is only one God?

amah,

I have run into the same thing with Muslims that George apparently has. I don't know where it comes from. I read AbRah's post about his comment and I thought the same thing George did. I wonder what AbRah meant?

Annie

-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 04 June 2006 at 5:59am

AnnieTwo wrote:

amah wrote:

George wrote:

AbRah's comment that God didn't have sons--there is only one God--made me consider that he was one of them. Otherwise, why follow with there is only one God?

AnnieTwo.....What do you mean by your claim above? Please show me my own comment! Please don't say anything that u have no proofs to show! I am waiting for your proofs!

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 04 June 2006 at 6:10am

Annie,

From you: "amah,

I have run into the same thing with Muslims that George apparently has. I don't know where it comes from."

Annie, it comes from discussions. It comes when Muslims query on the use of the word "Begotten", which is the past participle of Beget, which in the English language means to procreate, which the Christians cannot explain well themselves. Couldn't there be any better word than that?

There is another meaning of the word Beget and that is "give rise to" or "cause". Would you consider these better than using "begotten"?

Now, I am not suggesting that God procreated Jesus himself. That is the meaning of the word chosen by Christians. Muslims resent that word "Begotten" in English and write to object.

So, if I say that God gave rise to Jesus in his virgin mother's womb or God caused Jesus to be born, would you be willing to throw away and discard the word "Begotten"?

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 04 June 2006 at 6:22am

AbRah,

From you: "AnnieTwo.....What do you mean by your claim above? Please show me my own comment! Please don't say anything that u have no proofs to show! I am waiting for your proofs!"

It is no accusation, AbRah. George and Annie were talking about their general observations about Muslims. I have just clarifed that to Annie how offending is that word "Begotten" used only and exclusively by the Christians, themselves.

BR & Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 04 June 2006 at 6:38am

bmzsp wrote:

AbRah,

From you: "AnnieTwo.....What do you mean by your claim above? Please show me my own comment! Please don't say anything that u have no proofs to show! I am waiting for your proofs!"

BR & Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

Assalamulikum to you dear BMZ.....May Allah rewards you and your family for your good deeds.......Ameen..........Thank you very much for the explanation. I appreciate it very much.

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 04 June 2006 at 7:33am

You are welcome AbRah. Wa Alaikum Assalaam and I have clarified that.

Most of our dear Christian friends sometimes want to find the word "Begotten" in Qur'aan, they look for it and ask for it. It is the translation of a Greek word and no one knows what was the exact word or it's equivalent in Hebrew or Aramaic.

God Amighty in Qur'aan denies that God has taken a son. There are no ifs and buts in Qur'aan about this. The message is that God has no son and does not need one. period.

To keep the issue and the matter clear, God Almighty calls Jesus by the name "Son of Mary" which is more factual.

It is not really necessary for Qur'aan to ask,"Has God begotten a son?" Qur'aan simply asks,"Has God got a son or Has God taken a Son?" The answer is Nay!

Posted By: George
Date Posted: 04 June 2006 at 10:53am

AbRah and others,

AbRah wrote:

AnnieTwo said: Jesus is a great prophet. The Jews already worshipped one God. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was a servant to the Father while on earth.

In order to restore my reputation, I offer the following explanation for my conclusion of what AbRah was implying in his statement in green above.

Please follow the dots:

1. AbRah says that God has no sons. Jesus is not the son of God for God has no sons!

Then he followed up with:

2. Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless upon them) said that God was ONE and ONLY so God has no sons and there are no other gods beside Him!

Since Christians believe that Jesus is God's son in the figurative sense and not in a biological sense, and they also believe that there is only one God, then what is AbRah trying to say?

Thanks. Sorry if I was too flip with my comment. I think you can see how I drew my conclusion.

George

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 04 June 2006 at 5:32pm

George,

That is okay. I did understand you.

By the way, what do you think of my suggestion to Annie, in my post at 6:10 am of 4th June 2006, regarding some proposed new words to replace the term "Begoteen"?

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 1:04am

If BMZ wants to beget a new word it's OK with me!

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 5:17am

amah wrote:

Does anyone here believe Adam was son of God too? Adam did not have a "mother" or a "father". Just wondering....

Adam is called a son of God in the New Testament.

Annie

-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 6:02am

David is the voice of reason.

"If BMZ wants to beget a new word it's OK with me!"

Wait till George, Patty and Annie have read you, David. I am sure all of them will agree that we have to beget a new word for "begotten".

BMZ

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 6:04am

Yep, we will "be gettin'" a new word fer sure!

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 6:05am

Annie,

From you: "Adam is called a son of God in the New Testament."

Have you replied to David about this:"Which Bible are you using?"

BMZ

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 7:18am

bmzsp wrote:

Annie,

From you: "Adam is called a son of God in the New Testament."

Have you replied to David about this:"Which Bible are you using?"

<>BMZ

What did David say? I use lots of translations of the Bible.

Annie

Annie

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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 7:32am

I deleted the question BMZ. I tried to query the reference but my search parameters were typo'd. It is from Luke 3:38

The phrase "children of God" pops up in different places though, usually in reference to Christians or perhaps any of the people of the book. It will take a while to develop an exegesis comparing those two terms.

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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 7:37am

Just a quickie: I admit I am flying in at the last minute, but up to page 5, no-one has challenged the original assertion that such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson were "Christians". They seem to have been lumped under "Protestants" (as opposed to Catholics)and that's that. Believe me, outside of the Bible Thumping South, and the Southern Baptist self-righteousness, most of the world looks upon these people as sad representatives of Jesus.

Let's get our terms straight.

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 9:21am

Christianity has always been a communal religion.

Matthew 18:20
For wherever two or three are gathered (drawn together as My followers) in (into) My name, there I AM in the midst of them.

In early Christianity even individual prayer was not encouraged. One had to pray in commune with other Christians. Falwell, Robertson and others like them are noted for not submitting to any eccleiastical authority. They have their own individualized version of Christianity, which is quite unlike the true denominations.

Falwell and Robertson are Christians, but IMHO their individuality is not scripturally sound. A single person cannot represent the body of Christ.

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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 9:30am

Amen David.

These men tend to stir up controversy even among other Christians. Long before I left mainstream Christianity, I did not find these men very appealing. Christ taught us to be kind and loving towards all. Their tirades against homosexuals and other faiths leave me with a sour taste in my mouth. I honestly believe they are in it for the money and not the religious conviction.

Pat Roberston has also be showing signs of mental illness lately. I wonder seriously how long he'll be with 700 Club.

Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 9:36am

Er, hmmmm, I don't judge anyone, it's God's place to do that. But I wonder if any of you have ever heard what these two gentlemen have to say regarding Catholics and the Catholic Church? **hint** It ain't pretty.

God's Peace.

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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.

Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 10:13am

DavidC wrote:

I deleted the question BMZ. I tried to query the reference but my search parameters were typo'd. It is from Luke 3:38

The phrase "children of God" pops up in different places though, usually in reference to Christians or perhaps any of the people of the book. It will take a while to develop an exegesis comparing those two terms.

David and BMZ,

Luke 3 is the verse I was thinking of.

http://www.freegrace.net/gill/Luke/Luke_3.htm - I think I can understand why we should/would consider Adam a "son of God."

If God created Adam then God is Adam's "father." God "fathered" him. His special relationship with God would be that Adam was created in God's image. "Adam" means "human." God showed that He wanted to have a father/son relationship with humans and started with Adam.

Annie

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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 10:21am

Robertson & Falwell are classic demigogues. The technique is:

1) Detail a long list of problems, threats and resentments.

2) Convince people that all of these stem from a single root cause.

3) Direct hostility at this target.

Robertson, Falwell, Bush, anti-American Arabs...all share this evil technique as a means to claw their way to power.

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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.