from todays Star:

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/4/27/nation/1 4074076&sec=nation - http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/4/27/nat ion/1 4074076&sec=nation

"Muslims who skip Friday prayers can be punished

KOTA BARU: Skipping Friday prayers is a major sin for Muslims and it is punishable under the state�s Syariah laws, said Kelantan Bar Committee chairman Datuk Wan Harun Shukri Noordin. 

Therefore, Muslims in the state must remember that Friday prayers are compulsory, otherwise they can be jailed or fined by the religious authorities, he said yesterday. 

He was commenting on a recent case in which a Muslim man was fined by the Syariah Court here for not attending the weekly prayers.  

Wan Harun said Syariah laws may differ slightly between the various states and their religious councils, but skipping Friday prayers was a clear offence in Kelantan and this rule applied to all Muslims working or residing in the state. 

State Local Government Committee chairman Takiyuddin Hassan said all states had similar legislation stating that it was an offence not to attend Friday prayers, but in Kelantan, the enforcement was more orderly. 

That was the reason why the man was hauled to court for not going to the mosque on a Friday, he said."  

Bismillah,

Muslim men, fred.

This seems to be in Malaysia.  Laws in different countries are very interesting to me.  What do you guys think?  Would you like to see sharia implemented in this way in Canada or US?

For more details, and to satisfy my own curiosity, I clicked on the link but the story wouldn�t load.

I would guess that this punishment for not attending Friday prayers is coming from the Wahhabist, which is to say, �puritanical� strain, or sect, of Islam (with its Saudi-modeled mutawah, or religious police, and all that).  At any rate, this reminds me of those Christian �Puritan� colonialists (of America) who made church attendance mandatory, and, for that matter, of John Calvin�s theocratic Geneva, which apparently and at times did the same thing.  Extraordinary, what was historically done with this:

�And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. [bold emphasis mine]� (Luke 14:23)

Servetus

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Religious-right-wins-abortion-victory/2004/11/24/1101219614210.html - http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Religious-right-wins-abo rtion-victory/2004/11/24/1101219614210.html

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/elec04.prez.bush.marriage/ - http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/elec04.prez.bush.m arriage/

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/03/airforce.religion/ - http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/03/airforce.religion/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/12/AR2006031200994.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03 /12/AR2006031200994.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns

And let's not forget how the U.K. NEVER, EVER used compulsion against anyone anywhere about anything. Heck, we need only look at the peace and contentment between Ireland and England to see how that works...

herjihad wote:

"This seems to be in Malaysia."

herjihad, it is only happening in the State of Kelantan in Malaysia, where the State Government is formed by a Malaysian Islamic Party.

There is no compulsion in the other states of Malaysia.

�And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. [bold emphasis mine]� (Luke 14:23)

Serv, What a great and bold emphasis!   Thanks for above and I agree with your bold emphasis. Do I have your permission to quote above elsewhere?

Cheers, BMZ,

�There is no compulsion in the other states of Malaysia.�

�� Do I have your [Servetus's] permission to quote above elsewhere?�

Permission granted, of course, but please do be advised that St. Luke�s Gospel has been in the public domain for roughly 2000 years and I didn�t get permission from anyone before I quoted it.  That said, I am not joking when I say that extraordinary things were historically done, or implemented, with this quote in mind, and one need only Google search, e.g., �St. Augustine,� �City of God,� and �compel them to come in� for proof of that.

Best regards,

Serv

Servetus wrote: For more details, and to satisfy my own curiosity, I clicked on the link but the story wouldn�t load. I would guess that this punishment for not attending Friday prayers is coming from the Wahhabist, which is to say, �puritanical� strain, or sect, of Islam (with its Saudi-modeled mutawah, or religious police, and all that).  At any rate, this reminds me of those Christian �Puritan� colonialists (of America) who made church attendance mandatory, and, for that matter, of John Calvin�s theocratic Geneva, which apparently and at times did the same thing.  Extraordinary, what was historically done with this: �And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. [bold emphasis mine]� (Luke 14:23)   Servetus

The Protestant Puritans, who destroyed Catholic Armies in the English Civil War and thereby ended the bloody 30 Years War that murdered 7.5 Germans in and around the Protestant "Lutherlands", created the most powerful nation in Earth's History.  That is an unambiguous fact.

Today, Church attendance is lax and America is coming apart at the seems, in perfect clockwork validation of Deuteronomy 32:8:

When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
       when he divided all mankind,
       he set up boundaries for the peoples
       according to the number of the sons of God.

Anybody see how that works?  Protestant Puritan America won all its wars.  The Protestant Puritans booted the Red Coats out of New England practically before the Declaration of Independence was even signed.  From 1777 onwards, there was peace, and narry a Red Coat, in New England.  By 1850, Protestant Puritan America had expanded from the East Coast of North America all the way to the Pacific Ocean in the West.  That's 3000+ miles of expansion in 75 years, an average rate of 40 miles per year.  That is huge phenomenal growth, and bespeaks of a powerful driving force behind it.

Today, there are far more ultra-leftist God-denying closet Communists, Satanists, and other clueless ignoramuses who accuse God's Word of having no power, even though they know nothing of the Scriptures with which to compare against reality.  The History of America is abject proof of Deut 32:8: Fear God, put God First and Foremost, and Struggle Earnestly to do His Will, or look like a bunch of weak clueless ignoramuses, who profane what they cannot seem to comprehend.

The Industrial Revolution, modernization, steam, rockets, TVs, Computers, and all modern technology was developed by Protestant Nations.  That is the power of true, earnest, sincere struggling to do God's Will.  Even as Father Abraham was Blessed by Almighty God for his earnestness in following Almighty God's Will, so too are great feasts and banquets prepared (Matt 22:1-14) for all those who earnestly strive for Almighty God.  Almighty God sees, hears, and knows all before even it ever registers in anyone's conscious mind.  The Power and the Truth of Almighty God should, by rights, be over-abundantly clear for those who perk up their ears and open up their eyes.  Choosing of one's own free will (from limited understanding) not to do so should not technically be blamed on Almighty God.

Steam Technology:

1654, Germany � Otto von Guericke (Protestant, Lutheran)

1690, France � Denis Papin (Protestant, Calvinist Huegenot)

1697, Russia � Peter the Great of Russia visits capitals of Europe in disguise and returns determined to Westernize (="Protestantize") his country.

1698, Britain � Thomas Savery (Protestant, collaborated with Newcomen, utilized Papin's ideas)

1712, Britain � Thomas Newcomen (Protestant, Baptist)

1782, Britain � James Watt (Protestant, Presbyterian Covenanter)

Television

1922, America � Vladimir Kosma Zworykin (Protestant nation)

1923, England � Edwin Belin (Protestant nation)

1927, America � Philo Taylor Farnsworth (Protestant nation)

Computer

1941, Deutschland � Konrad Zuse (Protestant nation)

1944, America � Howard H. Aiken (Protestant nation)

Industrial Revolution � Causes (Wikipedia)

Another theory is that the British advance was due to the presence of an entrepreneurial class which believed in progress, technology and hard work.¹ The existence of this class is often linked to the Protestant work ethic (see Max Weber) and the particular status of dissenting Protestant sects, such as the Quakers, Baptists and Presbyterians that had flourished with the English Civil War.

Bismillah,

Bismarck wrote: Servetus wrote: For more details, and to satisfy my own curiosity, I clicked on the link but the story wouldn�t load. I would guess that this punishment for not attending Friday prayers is coming from the Wahhabist, which is to say, �puritanical� strain, or sect, of Islam (with its Saudi-modeled mutawah, or religious police, and all that).  At any rate, this reminds me of those Christian �Puritan� colonialists (of America) who made church attendance mandatory, and, for that matter, of John Calvin�s theocratic Geneva, which apparently and at times did the same thing.  Extraordinary, what was historically done with this: �And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. [bold emphasis mine]� (Luke 14:23)   Servetus   The Protestant Puritans, who destroyed Catholic Armies in the English Civil War and thereby ended the bloody 30 Years War that murdered 7.5 Germans in and around the Protestant "Lutherlands", created the most powerful nation in Earth's History.  That is an unambiguous fact. Today, Church attendance is lax and America is coming apart at the seems, in perfect clockwork validation of Deuteronomy 32:8: When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,        when he divided all mankind,        he set up boundaries for the peoples        according to the number of the sons of God. Anybody see how that works?  Protestant Puritan America won all its wars.  The Protestant Puritans booted the Red Coats out of New England practically before the Declaration of Independence was even signed.  From 1777 onwards, there was peace, and narry a Red Coat, in New England.  By 1850, Protestant Puritan America had expanded from the East Coast of North America all the way to the Pacific Ocean in the West.  That's 3000+ miles of expansion in 75 years, an average rate of 40 miles per year.  That is huge phenomenal growth, and bespeaks of a powerful driving force behind it. Today, there are far more ultra-leftist God-denying closet Communists, Satanists, and other clueless ignoramuses who accuse God's Word of having no power, even though they know nothing of the Scriptures with which to compare against reality.  The History of America is abject proof of Deut 32:8: Fear God, put God First and Foremost, and Struggle Earnestly to do His Will, or look like a bunch of weak clueless ignoramuses, who profane what they cannot seem to comprehend.   The Industrial Revolution, modernization, steam, rockets, TVs, Computers, and all modern technology was developed by Protestant Nations.  That is the power of true, earnest, sincere struggling to do God's Will.  Even as Father Abraham was Blessed by Almighty God for his earnestness in following Almighty God's Will, so too are great feasts and banquets prepared (Matt 22:1-14) for all those who earnestly strive for Almighty God.  Almighty God sees, hears, and knows all before even it ever registers in anyone's conscious mind.  The Power and the Truth of Almighty God should, by rights, be over-abundantly clear for those who perk up their ears and open up their eyes.  Choosing of one's own free will (from limited understanding) not to do so should not technically be blamed on Almighty God.   Steam Technology: 1654, Germany � Otto von Guericke (Protestant, Lutheran) 1690, France � Denis Papin (Protestant, Calvinist Huegenot) 1697, Russia � Peter the Great of Russia visits capitals of Europe in disguise and returns determined to Westernize (="Protestantize") his country. 1698, Britain � Thomas Savery (Protestant, collaborated with Newcomen, utilized Papin's ideas) 1712, Britain � Thomas Newcomen (Protestant, Baptist) 1782, Britain � James Watt (Protestant, Presbyterian Covenanter)   Television 1922, America � Vladimir Kosma Zworykin (Protestant nation) 1923, England � Edwin Belin (Protestant nation) 1927, America � Philo Taylor Farnsworth (Protestant nation)   Computer 1941, Deutschland � Konrad Zuse (Protestant nation) 1944, America � Howard H. Aiken (Protestant nation)   Industrial Revolution � Causes (Wikipedia) Another theory is that the British advance was due to the presence of an entrepreneurial class which believed in progress, technology and hard work.1 The existence of this class is often linked to the Protestant work ethic (see Max Weber) and the particular status of dissenting Protestant sects, such as the Quakers, Baptists and Presbyterians that had flourished with the English Civil War.   Engines of Our Ingenuity http://www.uh.edu/engines/powersir.htm - http://www.uh.edu/engines/powersir.htm The [Catholic] French kings -- the Louises -- didn't reflect that view just in their fetish for elaborate clocks and clockwork toys. Their mercantile economic system reflected a clock-like concept of economic control. The mercantile idea was that nations stipulate trade balances ahead of time. The nation is assumed to have colonies to provide raw materials and gold. A working class manufactures goods within the country. Those goods are then used by the [Catholic] aristocracy, and they're sold back to the colonies. The wants of the working class are to be minimized and its population increased. That formula was calculated to drive over-regulated populaces into revolution. In England, revolution took the form of a growing realization that technology could free the working classes. English tradesmen saw that the people who made goods could own those goods. That violated the clockwork mercantile equation. And, sure enough, it's in this gathering revolution that feedback suddenly welled up again. The revolution began among dissident Protestant English tradesmen. First they built a network of canals. Then they began producing and moving goods about, far from London and away from central government control. Their revolution was quiet and thorough. Commoners laid hold of invention. After the blacksmith Newcomen invented the steam engine, the game began in earnest.   Catholic Nations were always Imperialists.  Fascist Italy, who invaded Libya in the 1920s, was under the thrall of Mussolini, who was a staunch Roman ally.  Hitler, who successfully destroyed Deutschland, heartland of the Protestant Reformation, was also a Roman Catholic and backed by the RCC.  The CATHOLIC CONQUISTADORS brutalized the Native Americans (nobody seems to realize that the literal blood descendants of Hernan Cortez still rule Mexico today).  Protestant England defeated Catholic France in 120 years of constant war, from Queen Anne's War (1689-97) up through Napoleon's bloody wars (1804-1814), which killed ~5,000,000 Europeans, precisely because Protestant England, as a freer society, was more CAPITALIST than IMPERIALIST France, and had a richer and more robust Economy, so it was able to keep funding its wars and win out in the end (much as the Soviet system collapsed under its own weight compared to America's CAPITALIST economy). Many people hate "Capitalists". But everytime they do, they are also, as it would happen to happen to happen, hating "Protestants".  By virtue of fighting for the Strength and Freedom to earnestly worship Almighty God alone, neither joined with nor subordinate to the worship of kings and monarch, Protestant nations won the Freedoms to become Capitalist.  The Bulwark of Capitalism (Deutschland, England, America) is also the Bulwark of Protestantism, and it's no coincidence.  Hating Capitalists = Hating Protestants. And Rome is quite happy about that.  Quite happy indeed.  Catholic Bishops support Abortion in Protestant America, and once-Protestant babies die in the womb.  Catholic Bishops support illegal immigration into Protestant America, which floods America with CATHOLIC Latin Americans.  Arnold Schwarzenegger, a staunch Catholic, from Catholic Austria, married to a Catholic Kennedy (a staunch arch-leftist closet-Communist family), is in good standing with his Church, and, as it would happen, also opposes any efforts by Californians to wall off their lands from the Tsunami of Illegal Catholic Aliens pouring into their midst. Catholic Counter-Reformation (New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia): Another point to be noticed is that, though we assign certain dates for the beginning and end of the period under consideration, there has never been any break in the striving of the Church against the heresies which arose in the sixteenth century. In this sense the Counter-Reformation began in the time of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm - Luther and is not even yet closed.

Bismillah,

Doesn't your post belong under conspiracy theories?  I love quite a few Catholics, by the way.

So it looks like you're up the creek without a paddle, doesn't it?  Personally, I think we should learn Spanish as Muslims and get along really well with the Catholics in case this scenario of America being overwhelemed by those baby machine Catholics that Bismarc is describing.  At least someone isn't unduly moritifed of Muslims.

But Bismarck, one of the comparatively insignificant issues is this: if my sea-tossed, wayfaring Mayflower happens to land upon the shores of an ideal Puritanical Colony, am I going to be compelled to attend church and to listen to sermons (like those Muslims in this thread�s opener who are being forced to attend Friday prayers)?

By the way, and for those who might not know, I take my name from the 16^th Century Spanish physician and (in my opinion) martyr, Michael Servetus, at times derogatorily called �the Moor [or Muslim]� by his antagonistic contemporaries, whose biographer once said of him that he was �the only Christian ever to have been burned by Catholics in effigy and by Protestants in actuality.�  If I don't always agree with his viewpoint, or opinion, I nevertheless identify with him as a character.

Servetus (the 2nd)

well a great deal of historical verbiage is being generated here, but the fact remains that in a muslim majority country, in the year 2006, this is going on.  needless to say, these conmen in charge have all signed up to the un charter of human rights. this is not the end of the matter.  i have heard that the malaysians are shortly going to make conversion from islam to another religion illegal, and bmz, your point that it is only happening in one state is redundant, the article makes it clear that it is an offence in all states, in which case it should be legally enforced in all states.

mish can you kindly inform me what the abortion issue has to do with this?

servetus - your allusion to the parable in luke is not appropriate.  read it again and you will see that noone who did not accept the invitation was either thrown in jail, or fined.  they simply did not attend, and were left to their own devices

Skipping Friday prayers is a major sin for Muslims and it is punishable under the state�s Syariah laws, said Kelantan Bar Committee chairman Datuk Wan Harun Shukri Noordin.

Skipping prayers.....a major sin?? Hmm!! never heard of it before. So, bro Fredi, you are quite good at in picking on some Muslims' weaknesses. I must admit. However, rest assure you will never find such things originating from the Islam itself.

Reference to gospel according to Luke by bro Serv. is an interesting one, though, here the reference is distinctively not about Christians themselves but sources of present day Christianity.

Topic: no compulsion - the latest......

Well to read latest on this topic is what one sis already pasted a link on 'behind the scene' story of apostasy issue in Afghanistan. Here is the same link for 'completion' of that story. AFGHANISTAN'S LOST CONVERT

The Troubled Odyssey of Abdul Rahman

The case of Afghan Christian convert Abdul Rahman captured the world's attention for two weeks. Now his German asylum file and statements by his brother paint a picture of a seriously troubled man.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,409650,00.html - http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518 ,409650,00.html

�servetus - your allusion to the parable in luke is not appropriate.� 

Fredi, your assertion here is even more inappropriate than my allusion .

�read it again ��

With all due respect, I don�t need to.  How I read (or understand) it is not the issue.  How St. Augustine, John Calvin and the Puritans (among others) read it is the issue.  And despite �historical verbiage,� there are those within the UsofA who are, to this day, wary of certain far-right political alliances and of the rise of theocracy.  Here, then, is a case in point:  http://www.theocracywatch.org/ - http://www.theocracywatch.org/

Serv

Fred: If the right wing evangelical Christians have their way, abortion will be outlawed, thus compelling pregnant women to have the baby, or break the law.

I do not agree with abortion, but I do not agree with forcing someone to have a baby that they do not want either. That should be their choice and no-one should compel them to do anything. Especially in a society where there is supposed to be freedom of religion. Just because the evangelicals do not believe in abortion doesn't mean that others do not.

This is not only compulsion in religion, it is compulsion in a religion that you might not even believe in. At least the Muslims in the article are trying to compel other Muslims. They aren't telling Christians or Buddhists or Atheists they have to go to Friday prayer.

We are are compelled in one way or another.

Bush is compelled to turn the Middle East into a quagmire, literally using compulsion to try to force his ideals onto another country.

Christians in this country are compelled to try to force people to bear children, hate homosexuals, and read the ten Commandments in public places.

Fred is compelled to pick up any and every little nitpicky thing he can about Islam and trot it onto this forum for us to read, and, unfortunately, we are compelled to answer him. Even though we KNOW it won't make a difference.

I guess compulsion of one sort or another is everywhere....

zul - youll find the pictures on this page:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3751&PN=3&TPN=32 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3751& ;PN=3&TPN=32

fredi,

You can safely rule out the letter to the Omanis and the photocopy of the letter as the message in Arabic does not convey the same message which was sent by the prophet to a selected few.

Looks like the purported Letter to Omanis was made by Ali Sina or Ibn Warraq. 

Here is an extract from the link that I have provided at the bottom of this page. You have to see and feel how he called the people and what he said in his address and then read the message. The message was same to all.

Best Regards

BMZ

"The following year after the treaty of Hudaibiya, the Prophet decided to write to neighboring kings, including those of the two superpowers, summoning them to Islam. In order to make the selection of ambassadors to the rulers, he asked his Companions to assemble in the Mosque. After performing the obligatory prayer, he addressed them:

�O people! Allah has sent me as the one who is compassionate to the mankind and the prophet to the world. Therefore preach (the message of Islam) on my behalf, Allah will have Mercy upon you...�

The Prophet then selected some of his very competent companions as ambassadors to kings and heads of states. Some of them are listed below:

fredi,

1. My point is simple: Prophet sent the same letter to all.

2. I am not good at googling and that was what I could find.

3. There were some battles which had to be fought for law and order during various rebel leaders who turned apostates, like the leaders of Bahrain and Oman.

4. The letter that you talk about could be about warnings to them.

But you can't say that it was Compulsion right from the beginning as Muhammad was educated and taught by God Almighty through Qur'aan.

Now, are you aware of the Chapter on Joshua with all the holy gory details in the Holy Bible? Please read and tell me what went wrong with Yahweh and Joshua when both went on the Six-Star Killing Spree, together and what was the moral of that chapter or is?      

BMZ

zulqarnain wrote: Let me tell you frediboy. You don't know about our Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) much do you? In order to fully understand Muhammad(PBUH), you need to look at Islam... not at the opinions of others on the internet or some other source.. fredi said: now bear in mind muhammads intentions for the arabian peninsula. it was to be entirely muslim. this would call, i would think, for a different kind of letter In the Quran, it is mentioned that Muhammad (PBUH) was sent toward the whole of humanity, his message was for the whole of humanity not the "Arabian Peninsula" . Second, in the Quraan, it is mentioned that he was the giver of good news and the warner of bad consequences. If Allah ordered him to give good news and warn of bad consequences, as a Prophet, that is his purpose, his mission. If he ONLY gave good news to satisfy the people, he would be disobeying Allah, and ceases to be a Prophet. So if YOU think Muhammad (PBUH) was threatning the Omanis of his own accord, then you're sadly mistaken. And anyway, Islam was not spread by sword, NOW I know you'll give some examples to win the battle..

that was a strange one, zul.  i never said that muhammads message is not claimed to be for the whole world, nor did i say it was intended to be confined to the arabian peninsula.  nor did i actually say that muhammad was threatening the omanis of his own accord.  as for looking at islam, it may interest you to know i spent 4 years in your country (long before there was any internet) and had a right good look at it.  islam, that is.

fredi,

1. My point is simple: Prophet sent the same letter to all.

no, bmz, your point is simplistic.  are you saying he only wrote one letter (and he could write btw, i will look up something to prove this, and if i cant find it, i will retract it)?

2. I am not good at googling and that was what I could find.

 - yeah, right - sorry but wasnt born yesterday, bmz

3. There were some battles which had to be fought for law and order during various rebel leaders who turned apostates, like the leaders of Bahrain and Oman.

4. The letter that you talk about could be about warnings to them.

yes i know - it was a warning to convert to islam, or else

But you can't say that it was Compulsion right from the beginning as Muhammad was educated and taught by God Almighty through Qur'aan.

so it might have become compulsion in the end

Now, are you aware of the Chapter on Joshua with all the holy gory details in the Holy Bible? Please read and tell me what went wrong with Yahweh and Joshua when both went on the Six-Star Killing Spree, together and what was the moral of that chapter or is?      

BMZ

so? do you think we dont know about the character of yahweh? he is terrible in his doings.  he has not changed.  our God is a consuming fire - hebrews 12: 29.  but praise his holy name forever, his dealings  with men are now in grace through the Person of his Son, our blessed Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.  also we do not need to justify him, or any of his deeds, but thank him for justifying us - "therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" - romans 5: 1

am i to take it that you and zul are now accepting the translation of the letter given by the omanis, who after all, know arabic rather well, as it is their native language? 

fredi,

I refer to the notice in Arabic which according to you is hanging in a fort in Oman.

After trying to read and understand to the best of my knowledge, it is not at all addressed to the people of Oman. There is nothing of the sort which you have tried to show by way of the English translation of a message to Omanis.

If you do have an exact translation of the Arabic text, please provide. I can't find it.

bmz, the only translation available to me is the one given.  it is the one provided by the omanis at sohar fort.  bear in mind also that i have quoted sahih bukhari vol4book53no.393, which states that all the pagans were to be expelled from the arabian peninsula.  the conciliatory tone of the letters you have drawn my attention to is therefore scarcely appropriate for this scenario of compulsion

zul - car? driver?  are you saying the driver represents muslims, and the car represents islam?  or does the driver represent islam, and the car muslims?

fredi,

The Arabic text of the letter hanging in the fort of Oman and the English translation quoted by you DO NOT match at all. Period. There is not even the name of Oman in that Arabic text.

Let us not waste time over this. Topic closed.

Best Regards

BMZ

v

Edited by fredifreeloader on 25 March 2006 at 4:33am

Is this the translation that you are talking about, fredi or did you post any other translation?

Fredi,

From you: "yes bmz, that is the translation.  the text starts "peace be upon..." and ends "......shall prevail in your kingdom."

That English translation is not the translation of the Arabic text hanging in the fortress of Oman, Fredi. You are ed and are mixing. 

The text in Arabic (link provided by you earlier), has nothing in there to match with the text of translation in English (link also provided by you).

I do not see Muhammad telling or talking about any prophecy and horses and men camping in there, in the Arabic text.   

Perhaps, you could write to your friends in Oman and ask them to submit a new translation.

Not me, fredi. I think that was somebodyelse who promised you a translation.

Regarding the issue of all pagans being expelled, it was also not me who was supposed to discuss the issue.

However, on my part, I can assure you that there was no mass exodus of the pagans from the Arabian peninsula. They became Muslims and lived happily ever after that.

Please read about Prophet's peaceful entry into Mecca, without a war or a battle ever fought. 

bmzsp wrote: Not me, fredi. I think that was somebodyelse who promised you a translation. Regarding the issue of all pagans being expelled, it was also not me who was supposed to discuss the issue. However, on my part, I can assure you that there was no mass exodus of the pagans from the Arabian peninsula. They became Muslims and lived happily ever after that. Please read about Prophet's peaceful entry into Mecca, without a war or a battle ever fought.

with the greatest of respect, bmz, we are not talking about "prophets" entry into mecca, but    into    oman.  with regard to the issue of translation, and the expulsion of pagans, well these issues are open to discussion to whomsoever is able for it.  but it must be getting near your bedtime.  no point in burning the midnight oil if you have other fish to fry.... 

I'm very late entering this topic, but I just read the following which was posted by Bismark:

"Hitler, who successfully destroyed Deutschland, heartland of the Protestant Reformation, was also a Roman Catholic and backed by the RCC. "

This is not correct.  It has been taught as truth for a long time, but in actuality it is not so.  Here is an excerpt and a link concerning the stance of the Catholic Church during Hitler's reign of terror (for those interested in reading it):

"

The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps (p. 214). Could Pius have saved more lives by speaking out more forcefully? According to Lapide, the concentration camp prisoners did not want Pius to speak out openly (p. 247). As one jurist from the Nuremberg Trials said on WNBC in New York (Feb. 28, 1964), "Any words of Pius XII, directed against a madman like Hitler, would have brought on an even worse catastrophe... [and] accelerated the massacre of Jews and priests." (Ibid.) Yet Pius was not totally silent either. Lapide notes a book by the Jewish historian, Jenoe Levai, entitled, The Church Did Not Keep Silent (p. 256). He admits that everyone, including himself, could have done more. If we condemn Pius, then justice would demand condemning everyone else. He concludes by quoting from the Talmud that "whosoever preserves one life, it is accounted to him by Scripture as if he had preserved a whole world." With this he claims that Pius XII deserves a memorial forest of 860,000 trees in the Judean hills (pp. 268-9). It should be noted that six million Jews and three million Catholics were killed in the Holocaust."

http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html - http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html

Also, it is true that Hitler was a baptised Catholic and served as an altar boy, but he committed automatic excommunication because of his horrific acts during WWII.  He became an atheist.

May God Enlighten and Bless Us All!

Patty

Bismillah,

Thanks for the information, Patty.

Not for you, Fredi, you're hopelessly enraptured by your own (so-called) cleverness in fooling with the poor little Muslims - no offense, it's the way you come across...

But for everyone else, here's a really good article on the subject of compulsion:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/347E49BD-B8A3-47A1-AF19-5EBC405A8B9F.htm - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/347E49BD-B8A3-47A1-AF 19-5EBC405A8B9F.htm

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: Not for you, Fredi, you're hopelessly enraptured by your own (so-called) cleverness in fooling with the poor little Muslims - no offense, it's the way you come across... But for everyone else, here's a really good article on the subject of compulsion: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/347E49BD-B8A3-47A1-AF19-5EBC405A8B9F.htm - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/347E49BD-B8A3-47A1-AF 19-5EBC405A8B9F.htm Peace, ummziba.,

oh please, ummziba, forget about you "poor little muslims" - they give as good as they get.  as for my supposed "cleverness", well, i dont know where it went...  im not able to convince many, if any...  in any event, the "compulsion" issue is not about peoples egos, but about peoples lives.  i have read your link, and other similar articles.  compulsion is not solely about the apostasy issue, which, even on its own, is far from resolved

Clever Fredi,

Now let us take somethingelse, from your own slogan:

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

1. Who is 'he' with a small 'h'?

2. Why did he make him a sin for us when he could have made made him into something better?

3. Did he not have any other better way to get rid of sin, which has not abated or disappeared at all from the world?

3. Read from here: "for us, who knew no sin"  Yeah, we know no sin.

4. How can we be made the righteousness of God in God and then in him?

5. Who said all that?

Thanks fredi. I am ready to receive your spirit.

Yes, you are right. I should discuss that as a separate topic.

fredifreeloader wrote: from todays Star: http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/4/27/nation/1 4074076&sec=nation - http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/4/27/nat ion/1 4074076&sec=nation "Muslims who skip Friday prayers can be punished KOTA BARU: Skipping Friday prayers is a major sin for Muslims and it is punishable under the state�s Syariah laws, said Kelantan Bar Committee chairman Datuk Wan Harun Shukri Noordin.  Therefore, Muslims in the state must remember that Friday prayers are compulsory, otherwise they can be jailed or fined by the religious authorities, he said yesterday.  He was commenting on a recent case in which a Muslim man was fined by the Syariah Court here for not attending the weekly prayers.   Wan Harun said Syariah laws may differ slightly between the various states and their religious councils, but skipping Friday prayers was a clear offence in Kelantan and this rule applied to all Muslims working or residing in the state.  State Local Government Committee chairman Takiyuddin Hassan said all states had similar legislation stating that it was an offence not to attend Friday prayers, but in Kelantan, the enforcement was more orderly.  That was the reason why the man was hauled to court for not going to the mosque on a Friday, he said."

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

In Islam Allah is God and He is One and Only.

Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.(Quran 2:255 )
 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.(Quran 2:256 )

There is no compulsion in religion (Quran 2:256 )  means that Islam will neither force nor coerce non-Muslims to embrace Islam for there is no compulsion in religion. If you become a Muslim you are expected to behave as a Muslim, to follow Islamic rules and accept Islam as a way of life.

In order to be a Muslim, that is, to surrender oneself to God, it is necessary to believe in the oneness of God, in the sense of His being the only Creator, Preserver, Nourisher, etc. But this belief, later called Tawhid Ar-Rububiyyah, is not enough. Many of the idolators knew and believed that only the Supreme God could do all this. But this was not enough to make them Muslims. To tawhid ar-rububiyyah, one must add tawhid al-'uluhiyyah. That is, one acknowledges the fact that it is God alone who deserves to be worshipped, and thus abstains from worshipping any other thing or being.

             Having achieved this knowledge of the one true God, man should constantly have faith in Him, and should allow nothing to induce him to deny truth.

             When faith enters a person's heart, it causes certain mental states that result in certain actions. Taken together, these mental states and actions are the proof for the true faith. The Prophet said:� Faith is that which resides firmly in the heart and which is proved by deeds�.

             Foremost among those mental stated is the feeling of gratitude towards God, which could be said to be the essence of ibada (worship).

             The feeling of gratitude is so important that a non-believer is called 'kafir', which means 'one who denies a truth' and also 'one who is ungrateful'.

             A believer loves, and is grateful to God for the bounties He bestowed upon him, but being aware of the fact that his good deeds, whether mental or physical, are far from being commensurate with Divine favors, he is always anxious lest God should punish him, here or in the Hereafter. He, therefore, fears Him, surrenders himself to Him and serves Him with great humility. One cannot be in such a mental state without being almost all the time mindful of God. Remembering God is thus the life force of faith, without which it fades and withers away.

             The Qur'an tries to promote this feeling of gratitude by repeating the attributes of God very frequently. We find most of these attributes mentioned together in the following verses of the Qur'an:� He is God; there is no god but He. He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God; there is no god but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of the Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the Almighty, the All-Wise� (Quran 59:22-24).

             � There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious� (Quran 2:255).

fredifreeloader wrote: herjihad - it is malaysia, i should have specified this.  i am actually in scotland, so it will be up to canadians and americans to decide what they want.  i would utterly oppose any hint of sharia law being implemented in any way here

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My answer:

Islamic laws promote social justice. Please compare Islamic laws with your western secular laws regarding business :

Islamic Laws Regarding Business

Islam has permitted and in fact encouraged business. The Quran states:

"Allah has made business lawful for you" (2 : 275).

The early Muslims were not only engaged in trade but they went to distant lands in connection with business. Islam in fact reached East and West Africa, East Asia through the business people.

Islam has given detail laws of business. Islam has not permitted selling and purchasing of goods which are prohibited in Islamic law. The Prophet of Islam has said:

"When Allah prohibits a thing He prohibits (giving and receiving) the price of it as well." (reported in the books of tradition of Ahmad and Abu Daud)

Islam has also prohibited any kind of transaction involving uncertainty (Garar) as this could lead to quarrel or litigation. The Prophet of Islam has forbidden transaction involving unspecified quantity, acceptance of money for fish in the river or bird in the air as there is element of uncertainty. Similarly the Prophet of Islam has prohibited sale of fruit till they are ripened. (Chapter on Transactions involving uncertainty Garar in the book of tradition of Muslim).

However; if the element of uncertainty is very small, the transactions are permissible. For example, it is permissible to sell root vegetables while they are still on the ground. It is primarily because of the element of perishability of the harvested commodity that will result in loss to the former.

Freedom of trade and operation of market forces are allowed in Islam subject to the limits set by Shari'ah. Islam, however, condemns hoarding to make high profit at the cost of public interest. Islam does not allow making profit by withholding the commodity from the market so that it becomes scarce. The Prophet of Islam has said,

"If any one withholds goods until the price rises he is a sinner" (Tradition of Muslim).

"The withholding of grain for 40 days out of a desire of high price is prohibited in Islam" (Tradition of Ahmad, Hakim etc).

Islam, however; allows normal trade - buying and selling of goods again and again at a reasonable profit.

Islamic law has prescribed measures to prevent manipulation of market, exploitation of seller or buyer and fraud. The prophet of Islam prohibited people from going out of town to buy -merchandise which was on its way to city market. The reason for this prohibition is that the market place, where the forces of demand and supply determine prices, is the best place for trading transactions. In the situation of buying on way to market, the seller may not know the real market price and he may be deprived of legitimate price.

Islam prohibits fraud in business dealings. The Prophet (Sm) has said:

"It is not permissible to sell an article without making everything clear nor is it permissible for anyone who knows (about its defects) to refrain from mentioning them" (Baihaqi).

The Prophet of Islam has also said:

"Sell the good and bad separately. He who deceives is not of us" (Muslim, Ahmad).

The sin of fraud is greater if the seller supports it by swearing falsely. The Prophet has said,

"Swearing produces ready sale but blots out blessing" (Bukhari).

In the same manner deceiving others by withholding full measure is also prohibited. The Qur�an has emphasized the giving of full measure. It says,

"And give full measure and (full) weight in justice" (6:1 52).

Islam has prohibited business transactions on interest. The Quran is explicit about it and says,

"Allah- has permitted for you trade and prohibited interest"
(2 : 275).

In the Muslim world, in the last decade a chain of Islamic Banks has come up to avoid interest in trade.

Islam has permitted and encouraged business subject to aforesaid principles and restrictions. If these principles are followed, the economy will be greatly purified from injurious practices.

Please visit http://www.jamaat.org/islam/sources.html - http://www.jamaat.org/islam/sources.html  to know more about Islamic social laws

If you think that the secular laws give you freedom then you are wrong for there is no absolute freedom in the West. You have to obey the laws of your country in the West. If you break the laws you will be punished by the court so please don't slander Islamic laws for Islamic laws promote social justice!

The Islamic judges are instructed to be fair to both sides (the accuser and the accused).

In the west, the outcome of a trial depend on the lawyers...Successful, experienced and expensive lawyers ensure good outcome of a trial if you have so much money to hire them...Question: What will happen to poor people who have little money to spend on the trial in the West?

Alibaba wrote: I see Abrah2006 lives in the United States, and interestingly condemns western judicial systems in favor of the Islamic law courts.  Well, Arbrah, I suppose you noted that the Muslim terrorist, Moussaoui (or however his name is spelled) was not given the axe by an American jury of westerners - which seems to be a pretty big break for somebody who has said that his greatest wish is to kill Americans. Perhaps  you'd do better in Iran, where the judicial system is based on Muslim laws.  You seem to hate everything western - my goodness, why are you  living there? Some thoughts on Moussaoui: http://blog.oneamericacommittee.com/tag/Moussaui - http://blog.oneamericacommittee.com/tag/Moussaui

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Was it wrong for the Vietnamese people to kill Americans who invaded Vietnam and massacred millions of innocent Vietnamese people during the Vietnamese War? Have you forgotten how the American troops raped and massacred innocent Vietnamese babies, children,women, elderly people etc during the My Lai Massacre?

Was it wrong for the Korean people to kill Americans who invaded Korea and massacred millions of innocent Korean babies, children, women, elderly people etc during the Korean War?

Is it wrong for the Iraqi people to kill Americans who are invading and plundering Iraq? Is it right for those American troops to torture, rape and murder innocent Iraqi babies, children, women, elderly people etc in Iraq....Don't try to fool me by saying that Bush is liberating Iraq...Bush lie so much so that he and his cronies may invade Iraq...Where are the non-existent WMDs? Nowhere! Hitler used to say that he invaded Europe to liberate Europe! Bush and his allies even imposed economy sanctions onto Iraq that starved millions of Iraqi babies to death!

Is it wrong for the Afghan people to kill Americans who are invading and plundering Afghanistan? Is it right for those American troops to torture, rape and murder innocent Afghan babies, children, women, elderly people etc in Afghanistan?....Don't try to fool me by saying that Bush is liberating Afghanistan...The US forces bomb and bombarded civilian targets killing innocent civilians who don't even know where New York is. Hitler used to say that he invaded Europe to liberate Europe and so does Bush!

I quote your words ' his greatest wish is to kill Americans.'  His wish does not reflect the teachings of Islam for Islam forbids terrorism!

With regard to the Dhimmis (Non-Muslims living under Muslim protection), Islam ordered that they must be treated justly. It gave them rights and imposed duties on them. It gave them security in the Muslim world, and imposed blood-money and expiation for an act of killing committed against anyone among them. Allah says:

"If he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, blood-money shall be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed" (4:92)

Furthermore, in conformity with the saying of the Prophet (peace be on him), Islam prohibits the slaying of a Dhimmi living in the Muslim world.

"Whoever kills a person under the contract of protection shall never smell the scent of Paradise" (Ibn Majah)

Moreover, Islam does not forbid its followers from being charitable towards those who do not fight them or expel them from their homes. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (60:8)

And:

"And let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do" (5:8)

Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism. In the Quran, God has said:
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

The Prophet Muhammad used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children, and he would advise them: {...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child.} And he also said: {Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.} 

Moderator,

I like Fredi but I don't like his footnote. It constantly reminds me to  sin and makes me feel sorry for God that He hath to kill His own son for others' sins and for no sin on his part.   

Good Night from Singapore

BMZ

Ali Baba,

From you: "bmzsp:  A word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but a word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither in this world or the next."

Now who would you consider the Holy Spirit in above? God Almighty or the Spirit that proceedeth from God or proceedteh from son?

Fred: Shariah Law as practiced by the Prophet did not affect non-Muslims. They were never judged under Shariah. Nor were women treated in a manner less than men. Also, it was practiced in the correct manner. That can not be said of any Muslim majority society today.

However, name me a society where all laws are practiced correctly? Where money and power have no influence? Name me any society on the earth today that practices law in a manner that is 100% fair and equitable.  

fredifreeloader wrote: AbRah2006 wrote: If you think that the secular laws give you freedom then you are wrong for there is no absolute freedom in the West. what is "absolute freedom", and who says we have it in the west? The Islamic judges are instructed to be fair to both sides (the accuser and the accused). how can they be fair when, under the rules of sharia law, the word of a muslim is taken over the word of a non-muslim, and the word of a man is taken over the word of a woman.  islam is perhaps the most discriminatory thing on earth In the west, the outcome of a trial depend on the lawyers...Successful, experienced and expensive lawyers ensure good outcome of a trial if you have so much money to hire them...Question: What will happen to poor people who have little money to spend on the trial in the West? answer: they get legal aid

Bismillah,

NO!  THEY DON'T!!!  Who told you that?  Have you tried to get legal aid?  Have you noticed or paid attention to the lack of legal advice for poor people here?

Jenni wrote: I am against sharia law being implemented anywhere at the moment, as the implementers are usually backwards and uneducated. There is a push for this by some in Pakistan as well and the educated people in the country are TOTALLY against it. It is not the problem with Quran it is the problem with corrupt men who interpret things to give them the most influence and control of people, especially women and non Muslims. It is not like they are doing it to help people and give people more productive lives. You can not force people to believe, and some of the most wild and unbeleiving muslims I have met are from saudi arabia. The overload of religiousity there actually turned them off to thier religon. Be a good example, help people, give women education and fair treatment, show what is great about Islam and that will turn people around!

Bismillah,

I agree, Sister Jenni.  (Don't you think they should ask us to be their advisors on any laws they think up?  At least they could get our point of view on it!)  Some of the laws that they claim to be Islaamic in the so-called Shariah laws seem to have come from Mars, definitely not Venus!

herjihad posted this:

"NO!  THEY DON'T!!!  Who told you that?  Have you tried to get legal aid?  Have you noticed or paid attention to the lack of legal advice for poor people here?"

Here is the definition of Legal Aid Society in America:

legal aid society n. an organization formed to assist persons who have limited or no financial means but need legal help, usually sponsored by the local bar association's donations, sometimes with some local governmental financial support. Such societies examine the assets and income of the applicant, decide if the person has a legitimate need for legal services, give counselling, provide mediation, prepare simple documents, and if absolutely necessary give free legal assistance from a panel of volunteer attorneys. Originally most prevalent in larger cities, legal aid societies exist throughout the country. They do not usually provide assistance in criminal cases because indigent defendants are constitutionally entitled to representation by a public defender or appointed private counsel paid by the government. Some societies provide referral services to help a person find a suitable attorney, but normally referral is made by the local bar association.

God's Peace to You,

Patty

Ali Baba,

From you: "bmz:  the Holy Spirit is the one you appear to be slandering every day."

I don't slander. Please don't feel that way. Let me put three not-so-dumb questions again to you:

Does God "the Father" have his own spirit or soul? Does Jesus "the son" have his own spirit or soul? Does the Holy Spirit, which you have in your mind, live on it's own or it is the same spirit shared by God, the Father and God the Son or it is commonly shared by both?

Please answer each question separately.

If you think that the secular laws give you freedom then you are wrong for there is no absolute freedom in the West.

Fredifreeloader's statement: what is "absolute freedom", and who says we have it in the west?

----------------------------------------------------------

My Answer: It is the western who proudly admit that they have freedom to do whatever they like to do while accusing Muslims falsely of not having freedom. They claim that they practise religious freedom  while persecuting Muslims for practising their beliefs. For example Muslim women cover their hairs for their beliefs but the Christians use their laws etc to force the Muslim women to expose their hairs.Some Zionists and  Christians in Europe, USA etc slander the prophet Muhammad by drawing cartoons to degrade him in the name of freedom. It is an irony that when an educated European says that Holocaust is fake and it did not exist, the Zionists and Christians charge him in the court! So where is the freedom declared by the Western people? This is the hypocrisy of the West!

In Muslim nations Muslims have their freedom to practise their human rights and beliefs and so have the non-Muslims. Proof: There are non-Muslims and their churches , synogue, temple in Muslim nations and they are free to practise their beliefs. The western people accuse Muslim nations of persecuting non-Muslims for their beliefs falsely. If they are persecuted by Muslims how come they enjoy freedom in Muslims such as doing business and become rich, holding high positions in Muslim governments and non-government firms and organisation, enjoying the same rights as Muslims do etc. Why don't they go to the western nations for good? Nobody will stop them if they decide to do that! It is an irony that they carry on living in Muslim nations enjoying freedom while the western people slander them by saying that the non-Muslims are being oppressed by Muslims!

I will refute two other statements of yours soon!

AbRah2006's statement: The Islamic judges are instructed to be fair to both sides (the accuser and the accused).

Fredifreeloader's statement: how can they be fair when, under the rules of sharia law, the word of a muslim is taken over the word of a non-muslim, and the word of a man is taken over the word of a woman.  islam is perhaps the most discriminatory thing on earth

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Answer:  Islamic Judicial System

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealing and let not the hatred of others to you, make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah for Allah is well acquainted with all that you do" [ Quran Al-Maida: 8].

In the eyes of the judiciary there can be no bias against the non-Muslims in favour of Muslims. The judge (Qadi) is concerned with evidence permitted by Shari'ah and nothing else. There are many examples of cases where the non-Muslim was ruled in favour over a Muslim.

During the rule of Umar bin al-Khattab (ra), certain Muslims had stolen a piece of land belonging to a Jew and then constructed a mosque upon it. This clearly violated the rights of the Jew who was a dhimmi. Umar (ra) ordered the demolition of the mosque and the restoration of the land to the Jew.

In another case, during the rule of Imam Ali (ra), a Jew stole a shield from the Khaleefah. Ali (ra) took the matter to court and brought his son as a witness. The judge ruled against Khaleefah and stated that a son cannot be a witness for a father in court. When the Jew witnessed such fairness, he voluntarily confessed that he stole the shield and embraced Islam.

With regard to the Dhimmis (Non-Muslims living under Muslim protection), Islam ordered that they must be treated justly. It gave them rights and imposed duties on them. It gave them security in the Muslim world, and imposed blood-money and expiation for an act of killing committed against anyone among them. Allah says:

"If he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, blood-money shall be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed" (Quran 4:92)

Furthermore, in conformity with the saying of the Prophet (peace be on him), Islam prohibits the slaying of a Dhimmi living in the Muslim world.

"Whoever kills a person under the contract of protection shall never smell the scent of Paradise" (Ibn Majah)

Moreover, Islam does not forbid its followers from being charitable towards those who do not fight them or expel them from their homes. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (Quran 60:8)

And:

"And let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do" (Quran 5:8)

Conclusion: In the eyes of the Islamic judiciary there can be no bias against the non-Muslims in favour of Muslims. Islam respects the religious freedom of non-Muslims: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower

[Qur'an 2:256]

AbRah's statement:In the west, the outcome of a trial depend on the lawyers...Successful, experienced and expensive lawyers ensure good outcome of a trial if you have so much money to hire them...Question: What will happen to poor people who have little money to spend on the trial in the West?

Fredi's answer: they get legal aid

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Here is my answer for you Fredi: What is the quality of the legal aid? Is it easy to get one? What do you expect of a lawyer to whom you pay  minimum fees? What are the chances of winning a case in the court if your opponent hire an expensive, experienced and successful lawyers...Don't you know that the cost of a trial is very expensive in the west? It is expensive to tell to the court that you are right!

Jenni wrote: I am against sharia law being implemented anywhere at the moment, as the implementers are usually backwards and uneducated. There is a push for this by some in Pakistan as well and the educated people in the country are TOTALLY against it. It is not the problem with Quran it is the problem with corrupt men who interpret things to give them the most influence and control of people, especially women and non Muslims. It is not like they are doing it to help people and give people more productive lives. You can not force people to believe, and some of the most wild and unbeleiving muslims I have met are from saudi arabia. The overload of religiousity there actually turned them off to thier religon. Be a good example, help people, give women education and fair treatment, show what is great about Islam and that will turn people around!

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

Answer: Islam promotes justice:

Islamic Judicial System

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealing and let not the hatred of others to you, make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah for Allah is well acquainted with all that you do" [ Quran Al-Maida: 8].

In the eyes of the judiciary there can be no bias against the muslims and non-Muslims . The judge (Qadi) is concerned with evidence permitted by Shari'ah and nothing else. There are many examples of cases where the non-Muslim was ruled in favour over a Muslim.

During the rule of Umar bin al-Khattab (ra), certain Muslims had stolen a piece of land belonging to a Jew and then constructed a mosque upon it. This clearly violated the rights of the Jew who was a dhimmi. Umar (ra) ordered the demolition of the mosque and the restoration of the land to the Jew.

In another case, during the rule of Imam Ali (ra), a Jew stole a shield from the Khaleefah. Ali (ra) took the matter to court and brought his son as a witness. The judge ruled against Khaleefah and stated that a son cannot be a witness for a father in court. When the Jew witnessed such fairness, he voluntarily confessed that he stole the shield and embraced Islam.

With regard to the Dhimmis (Non-Muslims living under Muslim protection), Islam ordered that they must be treated justly. It gave them rights and imposed duties on them. It gave them security in the Muslim world, and imposed blood-money and expiation for an act of killing committed against anyone among them. Allah says:

"If he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, blood-money shall be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed" (Quran 4:92)

Furthermore, in conformity with the saying of the Prophet (peace be on him), Islam prohibits the slaying of a Dhimmi living in the Muslim world.

"Whoever kills a person under the contract of protection shall never smell the scent of Paradise" (Ibn Majah)

Moreover, Islam does not forbid its followers from being charitable towards those who do not fight them or expel them from their homes. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (Quran 60:8)

And:

"And let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do" (Quran 5:8)

In Islam there is absolutely no difference between men and women as far as their relationship to Allah is concerned, as both are promised the same reward for good conduct and the same punishment for evil conduct. The Qur'an says:

And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women. (2:226)

The Qur'an, in addressing the believers, often uses the expression,'believing men and women' to emphasize the equality of men and women in regard to their respective duties, rights, virtues and merits. It says:

For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (Quran 33:35)

The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women: O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

Conclusion: (1)In the eyes of the Islamic judiciary there can be no bias against the Muslims and non-Muslims .

(2)Islam respects the religious freedom of non-Muslims: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower
[Qur'an 2:256]

DavidC,

Yes, Sir! You just made my life easy. Thanks.

BR

BMZ

Why, when asking about legal aid for the poor in America (the West), was my post totally ignored?  I did offer an article regarding the availability for free legal aid in America, in fact, it is compulsitory for those accused of a felony.  They are  provided with a public defender or an attorney who works "pro bono".  I'm puzzled as to why this has been ignored, as if it was never posted or provided as a fact.  Was there something (unknown to me) in this post which was considered disrespectful?

God's Peace,

Patty

AbRah's stament: It is the western who proudly admit that they have freedom to do whatever they like to do while accusing Muslims falsely of not having freedom.

Fredi's statement: this is nonsense, the only people claiming to be able to do whatever they like are criminals, idiots or ordinary people who only ever want to do what the law allows 

My response: You can go to Yahoo Messenger Islam Chatroom 1 etc to see how ( I quote fredi's statement) the 'criminals, idiots or ordinary people' slander Muslim nations by saying that only the western nations give high degree of freedom freedom to people and  there is no freedom in Muslim nations!

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

AbRah's stament:They claim that they practise religious freedom  while persecuting Muslims for practising their beliefs. For example Muslim women cover their hairs for their beliefs but the Christians use their laws etc to force the Muslim women to expose their hairs.

Fredi's statement: in my country everyone who wishes may cover their hair, muslims or otherwise.  please give an example of where theyre not- are you talking about france?

My response: France

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

AbRah's stament:Some Zionists and  Christians in Europe, USA etc slander the prophet Muhammad by drawing cartoons to degrade him in the name of freedom.

Fredi's statement: but muslims are free to degrade the Lord Jesus Christ on a daily basis by denying his deity - and they are free to do so in the west.  our governments have no right to intervene in these matters.  i was shocked when no newspaper here in the uk had the guts to publish the cartoons.  they were even published in an egyptian newspaper, admittedly before the thing became a "crisis"

My response: We Muslims love Jesus very much for he is a great prophet of Allah and we will will never degarde him. Islam forbids slander so we will not slander anybody!

My question for you Fredi:

How do you feel if the media draw  cartoons of you to insult and slander you? Will you be happy?Will you thank the media  for insulting and slandering you? How do you feel if the media slander and insult your God? How do you feel if the media draw cartoons of Jesus to abuse him? How do you feel if the media draw cartoons of your parents to abuse them? Will you sue the media? How do you feel if the media draw cartoons of your wife having sex with her neighbour?Will you sue the media? 

Why do the people like you,  Alibaba, Patty etc ask the moderators to delete my statements if they think that my statements have affect  them? So where is the media freedom that you worship and adore?

See what happened when I wrote an article The Crucifixion of Jesus is a lie:

Patty's statement:Why is this person continually allowed by the moderator(s) to insult Christians and their beliefs? 

Alibaba's statement:Actually, I find the very title of this thread to be demeaning to Christianity

Fredifreeloader's statement:abrah - you have stated that the "crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax" - and have uttered dreadful blasphemy against our glorious Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ in the process (i may come back to your address your lies, time permitting) - but then you said this -

Why do the people like you,  Alibaba, Patty etc who worship and revere the freedom of media condemn me for my article  when you and them don't like my article? So where is the media freedom that you and your friends worship and revere? It is an irony that you Christians slander Muhammad in the name of media freedom but you are angry when I write an article to refute the crucifixion of Jesus? Therefore you and your friends are exposing the hypocrisy of the West!

We Muslims believe that Jesus is a messenger of God but Jesus is neither God nor the son of God. Even your Bible call Jesus the son of man so many times to refute the sonship of Jesus....How can Jesus be God when Jesus himself denies that he is God by saying that God is greater than Jesus(John 14:28)? How can Jesus be God when Jesus says in John 5:30, as saying: �I can of mine own self do nothing...� ......

Do you Fredi worship a powerless God?

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

AbRah's stament:It is an irony that when an educated European says that Holocaust is fake and it did not exist, the Zionists and Christians charge him in the court! So where is the freedom declared by the Western people? This is the hypocrisy of the West!

Fredi's statement: no the zionists and christians did not charge him in court - it was the austrian judiciary that did that.  austria and germany are very sensitive on these matters, and rightly so, as they felt the full blast of the nazi filth.  even doing the nazi salute as a joke is against the law in germany, if you do it you will be arrested.  they have faced up to their past and are determined it should not be repeated

My response: You Fredi are practising double standard here...How can the western media that is blessed by you slander the prophet Muhammad but at the same time you prosecute any persons who dare enough to question the Holocaust? The hypocrisy of the West!

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

AbRah's stament: In Muslim nations Muslims have their freedom to practise their human rights and beliefs and so have the non-Muslims. Proof: There are non-Muslims and their churches , synogue, temple in Muslim nations and they are free to practise their beliefs. The western people accuse Muslim nations of persecuting non-Muslims for their beliefs falsely.

Fredi's statement: please give an example of such a false accusation

My response: It is my pleasure give you an example........

time to get back to some good old-fashioned sharia law, i think -(the way it used to be in the good old days, and the way the muslims want it to be again, may God preserve us from it)

4833
AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
Christians and Jews may testify concerning each other
The testimony of Zimmees with respect to each other is admissible, notwithstanding they be of different religions. Malik and Shafe'i have said that their evidence is absolutely inadmissible, because, as infidels are unjust, it is requisite to be slow in believing any thing they may advance, God having said (in the Koran) "WHEN AN UNJUST PERSON TELLS YOU ANY THING, BE SLOW IN BELIEVING HIM; "whence it is that the evidence of an infidel is not admitted concerning a Muslim; and consequently, that an infidel stands (in this particular) in the same predicament with an apostate. The arguments of our doctors upon this point are twofold. First, it is related of the prophet, that he permitted and held lawful the testimony of some Christians concerning others of their sect. Secondly, an infidel having power over himself, and his minor children, is on that account qualified to be a witness with regard to his faith is not destructive of this qualification, because he is supposed to abstain from every thing prohibited in his own religion, and falsehood is prohibited in every religion. It is otherwise with respect to an apostate, as he possesses no power, either over his own person, or over that of another; and it is also otherwise with respect to a Zimmee in relation to a Muslim, because a Zimmee has no power over the person of a Muslim. Besides, a Zimmee may be suspected of inventing falsehoods against a Muslim, from the hatred he bears to him on account of the superiority of the Muslims over him.
3197
AL-HEDAYA Vol. I (Hanafi Manual)
[Qualification of a witness]
It is necessary that the witnesses be ... Muslims; the evidence of infidels not being legal with respect to Muslims.

all comments welcome, as ever

AbRah's stament:If they are persecuted by Muslims how come they enjoy freedom in Muslims such as doing business and become rich, holding high positions in Muslim governments and non-government firms and organisation, enjoying the same rights as Muslims do etc. Why don't they go to the western nations for good? Nobody will stop them if they decide to do that! It is an irony that they carry on living in Muslim nations enjoying freedom while the western people slander them by saying that the non-Muslims are being oppressed by Muslims!

Fredi's statement: its an even bigger irony that muslims are queuing up to get into the west, both legally and illegally, or as asylum seekers (says it all doesnt it) in order to live among such evil slanderers of islam as one finds in the west

My response: Emigration is natural and it happens since the time is immemorial. Even the Europeans emgirate to other nations!

Fredi's statement: well how many muslims are coming to the west, and how many westerners are going to live in muslims lands?  ill think youll find there is a big imbalance.  im not saying the west is perfect, it has so many problems.  but its still better than muslim countries, otherwise they would not be coming.  when president chirac went to algiers, the crowd was not shouting about the head covering ban in french schools, they were shouting "visa, visa, visa"

____________________________________________________________ _________________

My answer: Well........how many western powers that had invaded and plundered Muslim nations for their natural resources, riches and wealth throughout history and brought them back to the West? The robbery was committed by the British, French, Spain, Netherland etc ! What a shame! And when they had enough riches and wealth they left the Muslim nations as poor nations ! What a shame! So this is the law of Jungle! And who are invading and plundering Iraq and Afghanistan now?

fredifreeloader wrote: abrah - you may rant about the alleged misdeeds of european imperialists as much as you like, rightly or wrongly, but that is not addressing the issue of compulsion in islam

My response: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower
[Qur'an 2:256]

Surah At-Tauba
29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

Fredi,

First, thanks a lot for having a new footnote.

You wrote: "Surah At-Tauba
29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

now why should people be attacked just because they dont believe in islam?  why should they have to pay a special tax?  why should they have to feel subdued, just because they dont believe islam? - yet this is what the world faces if muslims get their way."

Good question and to find an answer, please just don't read V29 on it's own alone. Start from the beginning that is, V1 of Surah Taubah upto V29 and you will understand the true message, which I shall summarise instead of quoting all the verses and if you understood, thou shall not argue with me or with anyone any more!

Surah Taubah is also called Surah Ba-raa-ath. Taubah means to repent or desist, also and baraa-ath means a declaration or an announcement to free one from forced obligations, which is to declare that there cannot be any compromise anymore. Simply we are under no obligation to be nice to you when you are NOT!

An example of baraa-ath to make it easy to understand: Like GWB declared for a war based on true lies, "We are going alone" or "We are going on our own", after he had tired himself out with the world, which did not gave him any support. Anyway, his baraa-ath was wrongful as he wanted to invade at any cost. Please, no political discussions as that was an example only.   Let's come back to the topic.

The Surah starts by making an announcement from Allah and Messenger to all opposition who had treaties with Muslims but did not honour. They broke all treaties. They attacked Muslims whichever way they could, persecuted them and tortured them and waylaid them. It gives them a four months notice period like a warning that they should repent and mend their ways of brutally opposing Allah and the Messenger and take note of this declaration that Allah and Messenger treat those treaties as no more valid as they were the ones who broke all treaties. If they desist from fighting Allah and Messenger and repent it would be better for them, for they can no more carry on doing so and they cannot escape God's punishment.

It goes on to say: However, those with whom treaties were made and they honoured such treaties and did not openly help others against the Muslims, the Muslims were to completely honour the agreed period of the treaties. It goes on to tell the Muslims that when the 4-months warning period has expired, the Muslims were free and clear to fight the opposition, like they did, in whichever way they could but the Muslims are clearly told that if they repent and turn to God, start praying to God only and be charitable then leave them alone or make their life easy to live, for God Almighty is the Most Forgiving and the Most Merciful.

It then goes on to teach that if one of them seeks protection from you and wishes to stay in the land with you, then provide or grant him that full protection so that he hears the message of God and put him in a place where he feels safe and secure.

Now comes the argument: How can they, who fiercely oppose God and Messenger, expect to be granted a protection? For the protection can be granted only to those with whom Muslims had an agreement/Treaty made by the side of the Ka'aba, a very sacred place? As long as they remain straight and true to you, you shall remain straight and true to them, for God loves those who keep their words.

Here comes a sweet blow: How could they expect kindness from you?

If they had their way over you, they would not have cared a damn for any relationships or responsibility towards you, for in respect of believers in God, they just don't care. But if they turn to God, start praying to God and are charitable, then they are your brothers in religion. Then God says,"We explain this so that people understand."

And if they break their solemn oaths and pledges and revile your religion, making your life miserable, then fight these Deniers of the deniers or the extremists of Kufr because they have no regards for keeping the honour of their words and oaths.

Wouldn't you fight a people who broke all the pledges/treaties, and went to the extremes to force out the Messenger and they are the ones who started it all? Overawed by them or Fear them? You should stand up in awe and fear only of God, if you believe in God.

Fight such people and God will punish them through you, bringing them to humility and help you with victory over them, give you tranquility and remove the wrath from their hearts.

I am leaving V16 to V27 as I have explained most of the main points. Now we come to V28-29 which tell us that:

Such people are not clean meaning spiritually impure, so do not allow them to come near the Kaa'ba from this year onwards. And if you are worried that you will be hurt financially or economically and be impoverished, (by sanctions  ) or in a serious reduction of trade/business (Kaa'ba was at the cross-roads of all trading caravans and a commercial or livelihood centre for Meccans), then don't worry for God will bless and enrich you with Bounties.

Then comes every non-Muslim Polemic's most favourite verse   : V29 

So fight these people; (I have already explained what type of people and who were they) who do not believe in God, God's Messenger and the Last day of Judgement by God and those who do not forbid what God and the Messenger declared forbidden and do not follow the religion of Truth which God had given them also; till they are humbled and and willingly pay themselves some kind of surrender tax (war reparations, if you like the term  which looks nicer.)

Question: After reading above explanatory translation, please tell me now where are Muslims ordered to fight and do the unncessary killing?

I have put in a lot of sincere effort and time in explaining above, all in my own words, so if any one wishes to argue, please write point by point and don't copy the entire post back to me and throw in some two-lined silly statements.  

BR to you and all

BMZ

Fredifreeloader's statement:

fredifreeloader wrote: well, abrah, having utterly exposed your assertion that "in the eyes of the judiciary there can be no bias" by my quotation from shariyah law, which muslims are plotting and scheming to enforce worldwide (may the Lord preserve his people from this evil), all you can do is repeat the tired old mantra "there is no compulsion in religion".  i shall come back soon to expose more of your claims

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

My response :

Answer:  Islamic Judicial System

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealing and let not the hatred of others to you, make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah for Allah is well acquainted with all that you do" [ Quran Al-Maida: 8].

In the eyes of the judiciary there can be no bias against the non-Muslims in favour of Muslims. The judge (Qadi) is concerned with evidence permitted by Shari'ah and nothing else. There are many examples of cases where the non-Muslim was ruled in favour over a Muslim.

During the rule of Umar bin al-Khattab (ra), certain Muslims had stolen a piece of land belonging to a Jew and then constructed a mosque upon it. This clearly violated the rights of the Jew who was a dhimmi. Umar (ra) ordered the demolition of the mosque and the restoration of the land to the Jew.

In another case, during the rule of Imam Ali (ra), a Jew stole a shield from the Khaleefah. Ali (ra) took the matter to court and brought his son as a witness. The judge ruled against Khaleefah and stated that a son cannot be a witness for a father in court. When the Jew witnessed such fairness, he voluntarily confessed that he stole the shield and embraced Islam.

With regard to the Dhimmis (Non-Muslims living under Muslim protection), Islam ordered that they must be treated justly. It gave them rights and imposed duties on them. It gave them security in the Muslim world, and imposed blood-money and expiation for an act of killing committed against anyone among them. Allah says:

"If he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, blood-money shall be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed" (Quran 4:92)

Furthermore, in conformity with the saying of the Prophet (peace be on him), Islam prohibits the slaying of a Dhimmi living in the Muslim world.

"Whoever kills a person under the contract of protection shall never smell the scent of Paradise" (Ibn Majah)

Moreover, Islam does not forbid its followers from being charitable towards those who do not fight them or expel them from their homes. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (Quran 60:8)

And:

"And let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do" (Quran 5:8)

Conclusion: In the eyes of the Islamic judiciary there can be no bias against the non-Muslims in favour of Muslims. Islam respects the religious freedom of non-Muslims: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower

[Qur'an 2:256]

Surah At-Tauba
29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism. In the Quran, God has said:
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

The Prophet Muhammad used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children, and he would advise them: {...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child.} And he also said: {Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.}

Also, the Prophet Muhammad has forbidden punishment with fire.

He once listed murder as the second of the major sins, and he even warned that on the Day of Judgment, {The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.}

The non-Muslims such as the pagans,Jews, Romans(Christians) and Persians had been attacking Islamic nation since the prophet Muhammad and his companions established an Islamic nation in Medina so Al Quran allowed Muslims to defend themselves against the enemies who were trying to destroy the Islamic nation and to eliminate Islam and Muslims. When the Muslims defeated them, they were given two choices either embraced Islam or paid the Jizya. The Jizya was a tax for the benefit of the non-Muslims themselves such as defence and development.

Under the Romans: In 70 C.E. Titus, being informed that the Jews had paid half a shekel per capita to the Temple, declared that it should thereafter be paid into the imperial treasury. This practise continued up to the reign of Hadrian, when the Jews obtained permission to apply the halfshekel to the maintenance of their patriarch (comp. Basnage, "Histoire des Juifs," iv., ch. iv.). Nevertheless, it appears from Appian ("Syrian War," � 50) that Hadrian imposed on all the Jews of his empire a heavy poll-tax. It is further stated that the contribution of a half-shekel continued to be paid to the Roman emperor, that it was remitted only under Julian the Apostate, and that Theodosius reimposed it. This poll-tax existed during the Middle Ages under the name of "der goldene Opferpfennig." In the Orient the Jews paid the half-shekel for the maintenance of the exilarch, and Pethahiah of Regensburg relates that he found at Mosul six thousand Jews, each of whom paid annually a gold piece, one-half of which was used for the maintenance of the two rabbis, while the other half was paid to the emir (Depping, "Juden im Mittelalter," p. 138).

The age at which the Jews became liable to the poll-tax varied in different countries. In Germany every Jew and Jewess over twelve years old paid one gulden. In Spain and England, in 1273, the age was ten years. The amount varied in different epochs. In Anjou the Jews paid ten "sols tournois" as a poll-tax; on certain occasions the poor Jews claimed to be unable to pay this poll-tax; in these cases its collection was left to the community, which was responsible to the government for 1,000individuals, even when the number of Jews in the city was smaller. In England the tallage for crown revenue occasionally took the form of a poll-tax. In Italy, according to Judah Minz (Responsa, No. 42), a poll-tax was imposed on the community by its chiefs to the amount of half the communal expenses, the other half being raised by assessment. In Turkey, in the fifteenth century, the Jews were subject to a light poll-tax, payable only by males over twelve years of age. To defray congregational expenses, the Jewish communities until recently assessed equally every head of a household ("rosh bayit") in addition to collecting a tax on property (Erach). A similar tax was demanded from every family by the Austrian government (see Familianten Gesetz). [Source: JewishEncyclopedia.com]

AbRah2006 wrote: Have you ever paid taxes in your own nations? Why don't you complain for paying those taxes? Why don't you refuse to pay them?

As far as I know, the British tax authorities don't make us choose between paying taxes or being compelled to sign up to a religion.

fredifreeloader wrote: abrah - so you have no comment to make about my quotation from islamic law - that doesnt surprise me

____________________________________________________

My response: I am surprised to see that you cannot read....I have refuted your wild claims! Why don't you read my statements?

i have not made wild claims, i have quoted directly from shariah law, which is, admittedly, wild enough.  heres more

AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
... capitation-tax is a sort of punishment inflicted upon infidels for their obstinacy in infidelity, (as was before stated;) whence it is that it cannot be accepted of the infidel if he send it by the hands of a messenger, but must be exacted in a mortifying and humiliating manner, by the collector sitting and receiving it from him in a standing posture : (according to one tradition, the collector is to seize him by the throat, and shake him, saying, "Pay your tax, Zimmee!) - It is therefore evident that capitation-tax is a punishment; and where two punishments come together, they are compounded, in the same manner as in Hidd, or stated punishment. Secondly, capitation-tax is a substitute for destruction in respect to the infidels, and a substitute for personal aid in respect to the Muslims, (as was before observed;)

Colin wrote: [QUOTE=AbRah2006] Have you ever paid taxes in your own nations? Why don't you complain for paying those taxes? Why don't you refuse to pay them?

As far as I know, the British tax authorities don't make us choose between paying taxes or being compelled to sign up to a religion.

______________________________________________________

My response: The non-Muslim males who were under Muslim protection were required to pay Jizya to the Muslim government!

As far as I know , the British government had been imposing poll tax (British form of Jizya) onto its citizens and non-citizens since 1380 AD. John of Gaunt, the regent of Richard II of England, levied his poll tax in 1380 to finance the war against France that was in progress. Each person aged over 15 was required to pay the amount of one shilling, which was a large amount then.

As the charges began to rise, up to 18 million people refused to pay the tax, enforcement measures became increasingly draconian, and unrest mounted and culminated in a number of riots. The most serious of these happened in London on March 31, 1990, during a protest at Trafalgar Square, London, which more than 200,000 protesters attended (see also Poll tax riot). The Labour MP, Terry Fields, was jailed for 60 days for refusing to pay his poll tax.

i have not made wild claims, i have quoted directly from shariah law, which is, admittedly, wild enough.  heres more

AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
... capitation-tax is a sort of punishment inflicted upon infidels for their obstinacy in infidelity, (as was before stated;) whence it is that it cannot be accepted of the infidel if he send it by the hands of a messenger, but must be exacted in a mortifying and humiliating manner, by the collector sitting and receiving it from him in a standing posture : (according to one tradition, the collector is to seize him by the throat, and shake him, saying, "Pay your tax, Zimmee!) - It is therefore evident that capitation-tax is a punishment; and where two punishments come together, they are compounded, in the same manner as in Hidd, or stated punishment. Secondly, capitation-tax is a substitute for destruction in respect to the infidels, and a substitute for personal aid in respect to the Muslims, (as was before observed;)

My response: What about the Western governemnts?A poll tax, soul tax, or capitation is a tax of a uniform, fixed amount per individual (as opposed to a percentage of income). Such taxes were important sources of revenue for many countries the US,Canada and UK . There are several famous cases of poll taxes in history, notably a tax formerly required for voting in parts of the United States that was often designed to disenfranchise African Americans, Native Americans, and whites of non-British descent, as well as two taxes levied by John of Gaunt and Margaret Thatcher in the fourteenth and twentieth centuries respectively.

The word poll is an English word that once meant "head", hence the name poll tax for a per-person tax. However, in the United States, the term has come to be used almost exclusively for a fixed tax applied to voting. Since "going to the polls" is a common idiom for voting (deriving, of course, from the fact that early voting involved head-counts), a new folk etymology has supplanted any knowledge of the phrase's true origins in America.

The jizya is a poll tax that, according to Islamic law, Islamic states must take from adult non-Muslim males.

and yet more:

1. 3989
   AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
   [Infidels may be attacked without provocation].
   The destruction of the sword is incurred by infidels, although they be not the first aggressors, as appears from various passages in the sacred writings which are generally received to this effect.

2. AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
   ...capitation-tax is due only in lieu of destruction... That is to say, is imposed as a return for the mercy and forbearance shown by the Muslims, and as a substitute for that destruction which is due upon infidels.
   3997
   AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
   [On infidels refusing either to embrace the faith, or to pay tribute, they may be attacked.]

and yet more:

1. 3989
   AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
   [Infidels may be attacked without provocation].
   The destruction of the sword is incurred by infidels, although they be not the first aggressors, as appears from various passages in the sacred writings which are generally received to this effect.

2. AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
   ...capitation-tax is due only in lieu of destruction... That is to say, is imposed as a return for the mercy and forbearance shown by the Muslims, and as a substitute for that destruction which is due upon infidels.
   3997
   AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
   [On infidels refusing either to embrace the faith, or to pay tribute, they may be attacked.]

AbRah2006 wrote: Colin wrote: [QUOTE=AbRah2006] Have you ever paid taxes in your own nations? Why don't you complain for paying those taxes? Why don't you refuse to pay them? As far as I know, the British tax authorities don't make us choose between paying taxes or being compelled to sign up to a religion. ______________________________________________________ My response: The non-Muslim males who were under Muslim protection were required to pay Jizya to the Muslim government! As far as I know , the British government had been imposing poll tax (British form of Jizya) onto its citizens and non-citizens since 1380 AD. John of Gaunt, the regent of Richard II of England, levied his poll tax in 1380 to finance the war against France that was in progress. Each person aged over 15 was required to pay the amount of one shilling, which was a large amount then. As the charges began to rise, up to 18 million people refused to pay the tax, enforcement measures became increasingly draconian, and unrest mounted and culminated in a number of riots. The most serious of these happened in London on March 31, 1990, during a protest at Trafalgar Square, London, which more than 200,000 protesters attended (see also Poll tax riot). The Labour MP, Terry Fields, was jailed for 60 days for refusing to pay his poll tax.

Yes, but again, as far as I know the British tax authorities have never made us choose between paying taxes or being compelled to sign up to a religion.

Do you mean that the Western nations were punishing their citizens and non-citizens by imposing  poll tax, soul tax, or capitation onto them?

I will start a new topic to compare Islam with Judaism and Christianity since you Fredi are very lusty in degrading Islam and we will see which one is better! Can you tell me what your religion is? Please be honest to me.