Topic:  Resurgence of Western imperialism (1 of 22), Read 50 times 
Conf:  Events: Struggle for Jerusalem 
From:  ZamanH 
Date:  Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:01 AM 

As Salaam Alaikum,
I don't have much to say what most of the people here don't know already. The West has been sucking the rest of the world like a parasite since the last five hundred years. White men came to East as traders and seized vast lands by intrigue, deception and betrayal. Columbus actually enslaved his own savior. British once gifted woolen blankets to the chiefs of some American Indian tribes as a gesture of friendship. The blankets were infected with the chicken-pox virus and the disease decimated the tribes. Such is the Western thuggery, that, even if the West "helps" others, it often first makes sure that it inflicts maximum damage to them through its "help". West can never be friend of any Muslim. Those Muslims who are fighting for the West against other Muslims for the "right" or wrong reasons, should know, that the West will certainly betray most of them.

Muslims brought prosperity to the lands they conquered. Spain was much more prosperous then it was for a long time before and after them. Muslims liberated the people of lower-castes in India. Westerners, in contrast, impoverished whichever land had the misfortune of being visited by them. When British came to India, India was the richest country in the world, when the British left, it was amongst the poorest countries of the world.
The West clearly depends on its prosperity on robbing the East of its resources. After the fall of Communist dictators, the only consistent course of action left for the West to maintain its prosperity is to restart the colonization process, which was reversed by the Communists. For example, in context of U.S invasion of Iraq and its pursuit of Nuclear Missile Defense System, only an incredibly na�ve person or a blatant liar can deny U.S intends to extend its influence in the world to rob the weak and poor people of the world.
Jerusalem is the third holiest city of Islam. It's the city of Ibrahim (A.S). He was one of the Father of our nation. It is incumbent on all the Muslims, by their religion, to liberate Jerusalem. Allah certainly won't save us if we don't fight for Him. As is evident from the Arab-Israel '73 war, we cannot hope to liberate Jerusalem, unless West, itself, is disarmed.
West is a threat to ALL the Muslims. All the Muslims, in the south of Mediterranean will have to unite, whether we are prepared for it or not, or even, whether we like each other or not, because West is a much greater threat.

Also I have other websites relevant to the current post:

http://tomsdomain.com/aesop/id10.htm - http://tomsdomain.com/aesop/id10.htm
http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-1/454/454_06_Empire.shtml - http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-1/454/454_06_Empire.shtm l
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/History/British/Plassey.html - http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/History/British/Plassey .html

Topic:  Resurgence of Western imperialism (14 of 22), Read 24 times 
Conf:  Events: Struggle for Jerusalem 
From:  fezziwig 
Date:  Friday, February 18, 2005 06:41 AM 

On 2/15/2005 12:01:00 AM, waqar_zaman wrote:
>As Salaam Alaikum,

West can never be
>friend of any Muslim.

This sounds like racism.

Those
>Muslims who are fighting for
>the West against other Muslims
>for the "right" or wrong
>reasons, should know, that the
>West will certainly betray
>most of them.

Actually, Muslims are betrayed by muslims every day. For example, today in Iraq muslims bombed 20 more muslims.

>Spain was much more prosperous
>then it was for a long time
>before and after them.

And now the muslims bomb Spanish train stations?

>The West clearly depends on
>its prosperity on robbing the
>East of its resources.

Robbing? The west PAYS the ME for oil. It doesn't colonize and steal. Poverty in the ME would be even worse absent the western money.

>It is incumbent on all the
>Muslims, by their religion, to
>liberate Jerusalem.

Is this a call to war?

>Allah
>certainly won't save us if we
>don't fight for Him.

It is presumptuous and arrogant to think that allah needs ANYONE to fight for him. You are a heretic to suggest that allah cannot do what allah wants and that he requires mere humans to intercede on his behalf.

>As is
>evident from the Arab-Israel
>'73 war, we cannot hope to
>liberate Jerusalem, unless
>West, itself, is disarmed.

Nonsense. 73 war shows no such thing. Anyway, you are simply proposing another war. Hohum. Another losing gambit for muslims.

>All the Muslims, in
>the south of Mediterranean
>will have to unite, whether we
>are prepared for it or not, or
>even, whether we like each
>other or not,

Good luck! The animosity that YOU advocate is the very cause of muslim disunity.

>because West is
>a much greater threat.
>
The biggest threat to muslims is other muslims. This is the bitter fruit of the persistent animosity and hatred that you advocate. People who constantly advocate hatred and war are troublemakers and fools, and those who believe them defy god and end badly.

F

Topic:  Resurgence of Western imperialism (17 of 22), Read 25 times 
Conf:  Events: Struggle for Jerusalem 
From:  Yusuf. 
Date:  Saturday, February 19, 2005 08:50 AM 

On 2/18/2005 7:57:00 PM, NAUSHEEN wrote:
>>Allah
>>certainly won't save us if we
>>don't fight for Him.
>
>It is presumptuous and
>arrogant to think that allah
>needs ANYONE to fight for him.
>You are a heretic to suggest
>that allah cannot do what
>allah wants and that he
>requires mere humans to
>intercede on his behalf.It is
>this line of discussion which
>may have stemmed due to want
>of understanding on a
>particular concept but takes
>the shape of a "fight". The
>colors of which are spattered
>all over this board :p
>
>If one is thinking that his
>Lord will not save him unless
>he fights in His cause this
>does not primarily mean that
>Allah the most High, needs
>this person to fight for him.
>
>In Islam, the concept of God
>is that He is free of all
>needs.
>
>Thus the above argument is
>redundant at the face of
>muslim faith in general.
>
>Peace,
>Nausheen
>
>
>Be not heedless of thy Lord
>for even the blink of an eye,
>Lest He directs His attention
>towards you,
>and finds you unawares.
>

47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

8:17 It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).

For an excellent discussion of how to confront the negative influences of western society, see: http://www.saidnursi.com/symposium/s23f.html - http://www.saidnursi.com/symposium/s23f.html

Yusuf

Risale-i Nur

Topic:  Resurgence of Western imperialism (21 of 22), Read 15 times 
Conf:  Events: Struggle for Jerusalem 
From:  ZamanH 
Date:  Saturday, February 19, 2005 09:10 PM 

On 2/18/2005 6:41:00 AM, fezziwig wrote:
>On 2/15/2005 12:01:00 AM, waqar_zaman
>wrote:
>>As Salaam Alaikum,
>
>West can never be
>>friend of any Muslim.
>
>This sounds like racism.

No, I will say its just my awareness of history.

>Those
>>Muslims who are fighting for
>>the West against other Muslims
>>for the "right" or wrong
>>reasons, should know, that the
>>West will certainly betray
>>most of them.
>
>Actually, Muslims are betrayed by
>muslims every day. For example, today in
>Iraq muslims bombed 20 more muslims.

Westerners will be even worse then them. Madeline Albright, former Secretary of State of the U.S govt. said lives of 500,000 Iraqi children are worth the U.S hegemony in the region.
Besides, Westerners themselves fought savagely in the World Wars and probably, killed more people in that war then Muslims did in their entire history.

>>Spain was much more prosperous
>>then it was for a long time
>>before and after them.
>
>And now the muslims bomb Spanish train
>stations?

It wasn't our fault. Spanish themselves acknowledged they were in the wrong and promptly kicked the ruling party out of power.

>>The West clearly depends on
>>its prosperity on robbing the
>>East of its resources.
>
>Robbing? The west PAYS the ME for oil.
>It doesn't colonize and steal. Poverty
>in the ME would be even worse absent the
>western money.

Nearly 6 decades back, after the 2'nd World War, people from the East successfully started kicking the the White men out of their lands. However, at that time they were in a very pathetic state. They had almost no infrastructure, as, Westerners have been stealing their resources out of their country for a very long time. They couldn't manufacture much because of the lack of infrastructure. As a result, they had to sell their raw materials to the West at a very low price. Thus the Western plunder of the East continued.

Topic:  Resurgence of Western imperialism (22 of 22), Read 20 times 
Conf:  Events: Struggle for Jerusalem 
From:  Yusuf. 
Date:  Sunday, February 20, 2005 10:13 AM 

On 2/19/2005 9:10:00 PM, waqar_zaman wrote:
>Nearly 6 decades back, after the 2'nd
>World War, people from the East
>successfully started kicking the the
>White men out of their lands. However,
>at that time they were in a very
>pathetic state. They had almost no
>infrastructure, as, Westerners have been
>stealing their resources out of their
>country for a very long time. They
>couldn't manufacture much because of the
>lack of infrastructure. As a result,
>they had to sell their raw materials to
>the West at a very low price. Thus the
>Western plunder of the East continued.
>
>

This is a standard practice of the west and the ultimate goal of globalization. the west buys raw materials from non-industrialized nations at a low price, exploits labor in other non-industrialized nations at low wages, then sells goods manufactured from those resources back to the non-industrialized nations at inflated prices. Thus the illusion of "buying" natural resources is sustained, and the impoverishment of the majority of humanity is perpetuated.

The solution is to create a united Islamic common market, in which the Islamic states assist one another, giving each other preferential trade agreements and using their resources as economic weapons against aggressive regimes. But in order to do this, the Islamic peoples must work to restructure their state organizations to allow free exchange of ideas and more vibrant governments. Additionally, many of these societies, particularly the oil monarchies, must stop the practice of relying upon foreign specialists and come to the realization that in order to be free of western domination they must do the work themselves.

I was surprised and encouraged to see that even within the Saud family there are reform minded individuals with such ideas. There is much work to do.

53.36. Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses-

37. And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?-

38. Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another;

39. That man can have nothing but what he strives for;

Allah Hafiz

Yusuf

Risale-i Nur

respectfully - on 90% of this post - i say...

foolishness

tawhid

No, not confronting the West and fighting it, will be foolish and cowardly in the part of Muslims.

Assalamu alaikum,

Notice, akhi, that tawhid is unable to do anything but mindlessly call your post "foolishness" without presenting any evidence or argument to rebut it.

Even a donkey can make noise.

We need to give up our dependance upon oil. We need to start using alternative energy sources. This will mean we don't have so much to do with the oil-producing countries and will also mean that there is more sunlight for us to use to harness solar energy.

Pollution is not only causing global warming, it is also causing "global dimming", which means there is less sunlight penetrating our atmosphere, so solar energy sources can't work so efficiently. (I assume)

So we need to decrease our oil use, produce less pollution and use more solar energy and other alternative sources.

Kim...

kim! wrote: We need to give up our dependance upon oil.

That won't still solve the problem. The problem is more general/pervasive.

ZamanH wrote: kim! wrote: We need to give up our dependance upon oil. That won't still solve the problem. The problem is more general/pervasive.

How so ?

Westerners might believe their coloniol rule over other people is a thing of past, its not so for those who suffered because of it. Japan was the only country in East Asia which escaped colonization by the West and it became as much prosperous and technologically advanced  as the West before the 2'nd World war, while even countries like India and China which were rich in natural resources became very poor under the coloniol rule. Because of the influence of the communists and partly because of the 2'nd World war in which Westerners savagely killed each other and weaken themselves, the people of the Western colonies were able to kick the White men out of their lands.

However, even after they acheived independence from the Western nations, they were in very pathetic state as the Westerners were sucking all their resources out of their lands. They had no infrastructure. As a result, they had almost no manufacturing ability. Not only did they have to sell their raw materials to the West at low prices but also had to buy manufactured products from the WEst at very exorbitant rates. Thus, as earlier, coloured man was robbed twice by the West of his resources.

It is ironic that people of the colonies can avail of the WEstern medicines after the WEsterners left their lands, rather than, when they were in their lands. As they introduced themselves to better healthcare of the Modern Age quite abruptly, the population growth they experienced was exponential, rather than linear(as experienced by the West). It couldn't have occured at the worst time than that and it aggravated their problem many times over.

However, currently many nations of the East are showing spectacular recovery and people of the former colonies have started to manufacture.  Countires like China, India, Indonesia etc. are showing high economic growth rate. Thus, they are going to need the raw materials they earlier used to sell to the West and they will not need to buy expensive products form the West. Inspite of that, people of the East are still very poor compared to rich nations of the West and also, the world has become unipolar after the fall of the Communists, they are vulnerable to mischiefs of the West.

bharatiya wrote: Salam Zaman bhai!! What are you talking about?  Liberating 'lower castes'? The Muslims invaded india for its riches.  Most of the gold was taken away to Persia. Before Muslims invaded india, India was a naval power.  After the invasion, the whole of the navy was furled up and ships generally used to go only to Mecca. But whatever has happened has happened for our good. But one thing, I still feel sad about Muslims not leaving India even after the partition.  They are just sucking away India and helping the Pakistani ISI.

I'm ashamed to say I don't know this aspect of history as well as I should. But would you not agree that the British have more recently violated the Hindu lands for financial exploitation? And doesn't this lead to the conclusion that both the Islamic and the Hindu lands share this fate and should see in it a means for reconciliation and cooperation?

Ancestors of most of the Muslims were lower caste Hindus who converted to Islam. I hope you understand Muslims in India are not foreigners.

That is because of the climate. Yuo can see most of the Hindus who are diplaced from the Kashmir are Pandits, you hear less of lower caste Hindu being displaced from there, because there are none.

Besides, you know most of the Upper caste Hindus are Aryans, they are the group of people from the Caucus. But their skin colour has changed over a period of time because they have been living in a tropical climate.

bharatiya wrote: British have left dear Yusuf brother... But the war which started when the first Muslim invaded Bharat, hasn't over yet!

Then it's clear you first have no real conception of the historical processes involved, and second truly have an irrational hatred of Muslims.

And therefore our dialogue is finished.

Zaman please forgive Feziwig. He has disappeared. He was a simple case of convoluted terrible envy of anything even vaguely Islamic or Muslim. I feel he was a "mole" planted by some agencies on this website to distract our energy.

Kindly forgive our loveable friend Bharatia. He sounds quite like the Bharatia Janata Party. Please don't even ask him how was India a naval power (before the Muslim arrival as he claims) when it was considered a maha paap to ever cross the sea in Hindumat?

I hope you would also ignore to mention the sheer historic fact to him that the Hindu-Muslim harmony brought about a period when India did become a global power. The hungry lice-ridden unwashed Brits didn't arrive in India to set up some English Language academies for the Indians. They came to a country that produced 72% of the global produce and was sought by all Europeans at that hour.

Also no use to mention to him that all the communities in India rose against the plundering filthy Brits in 1857. And that it was only the Mayo Plan that divided India and produced brainwashed idiots who chose to ignore their own historical heritage and just hurl abuse all round but except at the real enemies.

An English friend of mine was touring India a few years ago. His tour guide paused his introduction for a moment when Nigel asked him: Where would your tourism be but for all these Mughal buildings?

No need to mention that to our self claiming Bharat loving friend who fails to realise that Bharat is a country of 137 different nations - of all the 1070 million souls. It doesn't just belong to some hardcore extremist Bharatias or some other such BJPites.