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Infant male circumcision

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Topic: Infant male circumcision
Posted By: Lira
Subject: Infant male circumcision
Date Posted: 22 August 2019 at 1:53am
Sorry for such long post but this subject is very important to me.

I am a woman and I have converted to Islam 5 years ago. I felt that Islam was right for me because it has agreed with all the fundamental believes and morals I already held and it has completed my overview of the world by providing answers to all the question I had.

I was always aware that Muslim men in their majority are circumcised but I’ve never looked closely at the topic. And whenever the topic would come up in a conversation most people would just dismiss it as a ‘tiny snip of a little bit of extra, unneeded skin’.

But when I actually looked into it, the reality has absolutely horrified me!

First of all, in infant circumcision up to 50% of all penile skin is being removed. And secondly, in majority infants the foreskin is firmly attached to the glans (by the same type of membrane that keeps your nails in place) and it only separates towards 3-5 years of age or even later. So before the foreskin can be cut off it first has to be torn off the glans, leaving the glans an effectively one big wound. I can't even begin to imagine how excruciatingly painful that is to a baby. (And before anyone says that babies don’t feel pain or feel it somehow different here’s link to the research by Oxford University, which proves that not only do babies feel pain in the same way as adults do but they also feel it four times stronger!) http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-04-21-babies-feel-pain-adults" rel="nofollow - http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-04-21-babies-feel-pain-adults

 

This procedure just seemed just so unislamic to me. For me Islam is a religion of tolerance, love and compassion. Even animals have to be slaughtered with minimal suffering for them but when it comes to human babies it’s not only considered acceptable but even encouraged to inflict lots of pain and suffering on helpless babies. It just didn’t make any sense to me, I couldn’t believe that Islam that I know could require one to do something like that. I decided to do more research and have found resources that indeed agree with my view (that circumcision is not a part of a religion).

https://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html

http://quransmessage.com/articles/circumcision%20FM3.htm" rel="nofollow - http://quransmessage.com/articles/circumcision%20FM3.htm  


Now, whenever I try to discuss this subject with anyone I just hit a brick wall. Nobody seems to question this practice. It’s a bit of a herd mentality of ‘it’s always been done like this’ even when you show them clear passages from the Quran which state that a men has been created by Allah (swt) to perfection. "We have indeed created man in the best of moulds" (95:4)

 "And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?" (2:170)

 

I just feel that by carrying on with the practice of infant circumcision we question Allah’s ability as a creator, as the All-Knowing and All-Powerful.

 

I just wanted to know what your thoughts are on this. Have you ever questioned the necessity of the procedure?

In the modern day and age there is really no excuse for poor hygiene practices, so there’s no need to be circumcised to remain clean. Also if you say you’re following practices of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) – then he’s done it when he was an adult, not a helpless baby. And hadith on this matter is considered to be a weak one.

 

Is it time for us, as a Muslim community, to start asking questions rather than blindly follow the traditions of the past?




Replies:
Posted By: AlkitabAdvocate
Date Posted: 16 October 2019 at 6:22pm
Good points. Its always good to ask questions.
A point to note is that Quran does not mention circumcision. Bible mentions circumcision. The followers of Bible don't practice it generally. Muslims practice it widely. Some Muslim communicates in Africa consider female circumcision as much religious as male circumcision.


Posted By: asep garutea
Date Posted: 16 October 2019 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by Lira Lira wrote:

Sorry for such long post but this subject is very important to me.

I am a woman and I have converted to Islam 5 years ago. I felt that Islam was right for me because it has agreed with all the fundamental believes and morals I already held and it has completed my overview of the world by providing answers to all the question I had.

I was always aware that Muslim men in their majority are circumcised but I’ve never looked closely at the topic. And whenever the topic would come up in a conversation most people would just dismiss it as a ‘tiny snip of a little bit of extra, unneeded skin’.

But when I actually looked into it, the reality has absolutely horrified me!

First of all, in infant circumcision up to 50% of all penile skin is being removed. And secondly, in majority infants the foreskin is firmly attached to the glans (by the same type of membrane that keeps your nails in place) and it only separates towards 3-5 years of age or even later. So before the foreskin can be cut off it first has to be torn off the glans, leaving the glans an effectively one big wound. I can't even begin to imagine how excruciatingly painful that is to a baby. (And before anyone says that babies don’t feel pain or feel it somehow different here’s link to the research by Oxford University, which proves that not only do babies feel pain in the same way as adults do but they also feel it four times stronger!) http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-04-21-babies-feel-pain-adults" rel="nofollow - http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-04-21-babies-feel-pain-adults

This procedure just seemed just so unislamic to me. For me Islam is a religion of tolerance, love and compassion. Even animals have to be slaughtered with minimal suffering for them but when it comes to human babies it’s not only considered acceptable but even encouraged to inflict lots of pain and suffering on helpless babies. It just didn’t make any sense to me, I couldn’t believe that Islam that I know could require one to do something like that. I decided to do more research and have found resources that indeed agree with my view (that circumcision is not a part of a religion).

https://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html

http://quransmessage.com/articles/circumcision%20FM3.htm" rel="nofollow - http://quransmessage.com/articles/circumcision%20FM3.htm  

Now, whenever I try to discuss this subject with anyone I just hit a brick wall. Nobody seems to question this practice. It’s a bit of a herd mentality of ‘it’s always been done like this’ even when you show them clear passages from the Quran which state that a men has been created by Allah (swt) to perfection. "We have indeed created man in the best of moulds" (95:4)

 "And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?" (2:170)

I just feel that by carrying on with the practice of infant circumcision we question Allah’s ability as a creator, as the All-Knowing and All-Powerful.

I just wanted to know what your thoughts are on this. Have you ever questioned the necessity of the procedure?

In the modern day and age there is really no excuse for poor hygiene practices, so there’s no need to be circumcised to remain clean. Also if you say you’re following practices of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) – then he’s done it when he was an adult, not a helpless baby. And hadith on this matter is considered to be a weak one.

Is it time for us, as a Muslim community, to start asking questions rather than blindly follow the traditions of the past?

Hi Lira,
Not all women are afraid to see children who are circumcised, and maybe you are classified as women who are afraid.
In this modern era many technologies are applied for circumcision, even in my country the practice of circumcision is sophisticated, today circumcised, the next day children can walk / run and do not feel sick.
You see children who are circumcised as if there is no tolerance in religion, whereas in modern times such as today there are many sophisticated circumcision practices, today in circumcision, the next day children can walk or run. Many people who are circumcised are not a big problem.
Allah Ta’ala Say:
ثُمَّ �£َوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ �£َنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَإِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
"Then We reveal to you (Muhammad): "Follow the religion of Abraham, a Hanif" and not that he is one of those who associate partners with Allah."
(An Nahl 16: 123)

Circumcision was very closely related to one of the millah of Abraham.
Allah Ta'ala Says:
حَرَجٍ مِلَّةَ �£َبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ
"Follow the religion of your parents Ibrahim. Allah has named you all Muslims long ago, and so it is in (the Qur'an), so that the Apostle bears witness to you and that you all be witnesses of all people."
(Al Hajj 22: 78 )

In the Hadith explained:
اخْتَتَنَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام وَهُوَ ابْنُ ثَمَانِينَ سَنَةً بِالْقَدُومِ
"Ibrahim ‘alaihissalam has circumcised with qadum (the name of a cutting tool) while he is 80 years old.
( HR. Al-Bukhary and Muslim )

The circumcision of the Prophet Ibrahim is also listed in the Old Testament:
"You must have your foreskin tightened and it will be a sign of the covenant between me and you. "
(Old Testament, Genesis 17: 11)

"Then Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God commanded him."(Genesis 21: 4)

And circumcision is also the shari'ah of the Prophet Moses.
Prophet Jesus also circumcised because he followed the shari'ah of the previous Prophets:
"And when it was even eight days and he had to be circumcised, he was given the name of Jesus, which is the name that was called by an angel before he was conceived by his mother. (Luke 2: 21)

This continued until the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu 'alaihi wasallam and some of humanity now.
Hopefully this explanation will add to your faith and devotion to Allah Ta'ala. 



Posted By: Lira
Date Posted: 17 October 2019 at 2:06am
I might've posted in a foreign language - would've been the same effect as to people trying to understand (or not even bothering) to what I am trying to say



Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 17 October 2019 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Lira Lira wrote:


I ... have found resources that indeed agree with my view (that circumcision is not a part of a religion)

https://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html

http://quransmessage.com/articles/circumcision%20FM3.htm" rel="nofollow - http://quransmessage.com/articles/circumcision%20FM3.htm  


If you look closely at these websites, you will find that they are FAKE, anti-Islam, designed to attack Islam (using the Quran only, and in a way that THEY want you to understand it). Either with No Scholars/authors... or worse: Dodgy/unknown authors. (Also photos of babies with FAKE blood on them, amateur use of Photoshop...etc).

The only thing that is worse than these websites... are (fake) people who use them to attack our religion.

However, thanks for reminding us of the widespread issue of fake (anti-Islam) websites (pretending to be genuine Islamic websites) on the internet. I shall now be addressing this issue soon. Thanks.

As for circumcision... use the search engine in 'trusted' Islamic websites, such as:

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1165/circumcision-of-infant-boys" rel="nofollow - https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1165/circumcision-of-infant-boys

Even non-muslim medical researchers are now turning to circumcision for treatment, and listing its benefits:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/circumcision-in-men/" rel="nofollow - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/circumcision-in-men/
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/circumcision-in-boys/" rel="nofollow - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/circumcision-in-boys/


Some of the listed benefits of circumcision:
  • A decreased risk of  https://www.webmd.com/women/guide/your-guide-urinary-tract-infections" rel="nofollow - urinary tract infections .
  • A reduced risk of some  https://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/default.htm" rel="nofollow - sexually transmitted diseases  in men.
  • Protection against  https://www.webmd.com/cancer/penile-cancer-overview" rel="nofollow - penile cancer  and a reduced risk of  https://www.webmd.com/cancer/cervical-cancer/default.htm" rel="nofollow - cervical cancer  in female  https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/default.htm" rel="nofollow - sex  partners.
  • Prevention of  https://www.webmd.com/men/penis-disorder-balanitis" rel="nofollow - balanitis  ( https://www.webmd.com/arthritis/about-inflammation" rel="nofollow - inflammation  of the glans) and balanoposthitis ( https://www.webmd.com/women/ss/slideshow-what-is-inflammation" rel="nofollow - inflammation  of the glans and foreskin).
  • Prevention of  https://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/sexual-health-male-reproductive-problems-penis-disorders" rel="nofollow - phimosis  (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).

         Circumcision also makes it easier to keep the end of the penis clean.


I don't know of anyone who has suffered or regretted circumcision. Yes I agree that parents find it hard to see their child in pain... but the child itself would thank you years later in the future for allowing this Islamic procedure (perhaps more than they would thank you for allowing painful vaccinations, jabs and other preventative medical procedures). On the other hand, they may never forgive you for not allowing it, and hence forcing them to do it at an older age. (remember: the earlier it's done the better).

Most of the people that I spoke to... had it done without any anesthetics (in their younger years). Yes there will be some discomfort and swelling for a few days... but the benefits far outweigh this discomfort. 










Posted By: Lira
Date Posted: 17 October 2019 at 1:08pm
That was pointless




Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 17 October 2019 at 1:20pm

Originally posted by Lira Lira wrote:

...According to some beliefs Ibrahim was also commanded to sacrifice his son. So are you saying that ever men should try to sacrifice their sons to follow the tradition of Ibrahim and wait for hand of an angel to stop him if God wills it?



A word of advice:

A GENUINE Muslim convert, would choose respectful words when talking about Islamic history, traditions, practices...etc, and certainly would not 'mock' and 'make fun' of the Will of God Subhanahu Wa Taala. Smile









Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 17 October 2019 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by Lira Lira wrote:

Islamqa website also promotes female circumcision as past of Islamic practice. Do you support cutting of little girls too???

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/60314/circumcision-of-girls-and-some-doctors-criticism-thereof" rel="nofollow - https://islamqa.info/en/answers/60314/circumcision-of-girls-and-some-doctors-criticism-thereof

So now you are changing the subject from male to female circumcision. Are there no limits to your 'dissatisfaction' with Islam?? What exactly are your motives?

For your information: Female circumcision is not obligatory (even according to Islamqa). It's a tradition that is only ever used by some remote (muslim and non-muslim) tribes nowadays. We do not usually discuss a subject that is a difference of opinion between scholars... especially if it is not even our original subject here.

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/427/circumcision-for-women-is-not-obligatory" rel="nofollow - https://islamqa.info/en/answers/427/circumcision-for-women-is-not-obligatory








Posted By: Lira
Date Posted: 17 October 2019 at 11:02pm
Honestly, I don't know why I bothered 


Posted By: Cherokee101
Date Posted: 22 August 2021 at 3:29am
Salam Lira

I completely understand where you are coming from. I am a historian and here are some thoughts:

1. The Prophet Muhammad PBUH, was not circumcised (he was born without a foreskin and many muslims try to copy that look)

2. It is not obligatory to get circumcised, it is just highly recommended

3. Historically, people circumcised when they didn't have much access to clean water to wash their body. Islam has avery high focus on cleanliness and it was born out of this issue

4. Some men do lose a lot of sensitivity, and some remain highly sensitive. The data is very mixed on the subject and more research needs to be done

You are right that many muslims blindly follow this act, as we do many other acts. But The Prophet PBUH always said we should question things to ensure we are following the truth. Given that most of the bizarre things we do and say come from Hadith, we should question that literature.

Given the Quran says it is the only book you need, why do we need hadith? Remember, circumcision is not mentioned in Quran.

Non intellectual people will not go this deep. They want an easy life.


Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 30 August 2021 at 2:49am
Originally posted by Cherokee101 Cherokee101 wrote:

...
1. The Prophet Muhammad PBUH, was not circumcised (he was born without a foreskin and many muslims try to copy that look)...

There are differences of opinion regarding this... the likeliest to be correct (according to scholars) is that he was circumcised by his grandfather AbdulMuttalib. See here: 

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/31069/was-the-prophet-peace-and-blessings-of-allaah-be-upon-him-born-circumcised" rel="nofollow - https://islamqa.info/en/answers/31069/was-the-prophet-peace-and-blessings-of-allaah-be-upon-him-born-circumcised


Originally posted by Cherokee101 Cherokee101 wrote:

... 
2. It is not obligatory to get circumcised, it is just highly recommended

3. Historically, people circumcised when they didn't have much access to clean water to wash their body. Islam has a very high focus on cleanliness and it was born out of this issue

4. Some men do lose a lot of sensitivity, and some remain highly sensitive. The data is very mixed on the subject and more research needs to be done...

Your sources for these please!

Originally posted by Cherokee101 Cherokee101 wrote:

... You are right that many muslims blindly follow this act, as we do many other acts. But The Prophet PBUH always said we should question things to ensure we are following the truth...
 

Which Hadith said this? ... if you can't give a proper link to the Hadith, then people are entitled to think that you just 'making up things' about our prophet PBUH.

Originally posted by Cherokee101 Cherokee101 wrote:

...Given that most of the bizarre things we do and say come from Hadith, we should question that literature...

I think that you have been reading 'Weak' or even 'Fabricated' Hadiths... No wonder!


Originally posted by Cherokee101 Cherokee101 wrote:

...Given the Quran says it is the only book you need...

Again... whenever you say 'Qur'an says... or Hadith says... it is good practice/manners to always show where it says that... otherwise it's a figment of your imagination.

Originally posted by Cherokee101 Cherokee101 wrote:

...why do we need hadith? ...

So above you say: The Prophet PBUH always said... and now you turn out to be a Hadith Rejecter?

If you reject Hadith (and Sunnah in general), then please answer me these questions:

1) How many prayers per day do you perform?... because Qur'an does not tell us (in detail)

2) Haw many Rakaah (Units) in each prayer? and what do you say?... because Qur'an does not tell us (in detail)

3) What percentage/amount of Zakat do you give... because Qur'an does not tell us (in detail)

4) How exactly do you perform Hajj?... because Qur'an does not tell us (in detail)
...
... and many other questions.


I hope you will understand: Long gone are the days when any Tom, Dick and Harry used claim Islam and say: 'Qur'an says' or Hadith says'... Nowadays we have Internet at our fingertips... therefore we are entitled to expect people to tell us Who said What? and Where and When?... (preferably without having to ask them)... it's called 'presenting evidence for your claims'... in other words: we are trying to prevent/protect from anyone 'polluting and contaminating' our Islam with baseless claims.

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/7073/the-health-and-religious-benefits-of-circumcision" rel="nofollow - https://islamqa.info/en/answers/7073/the-health-and-religious-benefits-of-circumcision





Posted By: Blackangel
Date Posted: 08 September 2021 at 4:24pm
Is trying to improve God's design an act of impudence?? If you weren't meant to have it would it be there?



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