I have always let my email address present for those wonderful people I've met here to keep in touch.  I'm going to have to change my settings.

I do not appreciate being called a wack job in a reply to another member carbon copied to me. 

If you aren't contacting me as a friend to say "Hi, what's up?" or "Hows the Adoption going?" 

Do NOT email me!

Our lovely Saving Missionary is apparently having a good giggle with a friend of hers and the friend emails her back and CC'd to me with quite a nasty statement.

Talk about Hypocrites.  How unchristlike!

Maybe I'll use it as the "Honey, I've had a rough day, get me ice cream?" 

My husband spoils me too much.  Then I can savor something good out of it. 

Assalamu Alaikum Angela:

These users have been banned from the forum, but you'll probably have to change your info to get rid of them on your end.

Sorry you got caught in the middle of the fourth Crusades....

Its nothing new, I have some magnetic personality for this kind of stuff.  LOL.

Thank you, love you all.

God Bless,

Angie

(I refuse to give up my screenname, however am I going to catch Angel????  I'm at 685....only 3316 to go.)

Oh, that's too funny.  My sister has play more than a few cruel jokes on JWs.  My parents live 1/4 mile from a Kingdom Hall. 

My mom had to hang a Methodist Cross on the door to ward them off.

Angela:  I am new here so I have to plead ignorance, but I wonder what exactly transpired in your conversation with the others that prompted that particular individual to refer to you as a "wack job" whether it was right for them to talk about you or not.  I have always found that if you reveal your views in a chat room, you have to expect people to tell you what they think of you and your ideas.  Sometimes it can be difficult to bear.  Anyway, can you share that conversation with us?  Also, I see that you have the eastern orthodox cross as your avatar.  Are you eastern orthodox? My dad was russian orthodox and I have many wonderful memories of that church while I was growing up, praise Jesus. Anyway, I have been reading some of the posts on this discussion group to get up to speed and I confess to being a little confused as to what your core beliefs are.  Thanks.

Sincerely,

John Brown

Assalamu Alaikum:

Just a reminder that there may be some Jehovah's Witnesses on the forum and we should respect them as we would any other member.

Jazak Allah Kheir.

Dwanna

Assalamu Alaikum:

At any given time there are numerous guests on the forum reading without posting. Besides, I don't think we know the religious beliefs of everyone here, do we?

I WAS Russian Orthodox, John Brown.  My grandfather's family was from L'viv, Ukraine.  My father's family was Protestant Methodist.

What I got called a wack job over was mentioning the reason I left the Protestant faith was during church one day we were reading the creeds and such out of the back of the Red UMC Hymnal and there was a passage that talked about being damned to hell without baptism.  It struck me as horrible that God would punish a baby who died without baptism in hell.  I could not believe that a Baby sinned by not being baptized and that's the first time I realized Original Sin was wrong. 

That is what got me called a wack job.  Of course, that and they were trying to save my soul from the evil Mormon Church.  Of which, I am a faithful member of now. 

Respecting anothers faith doesn't mean you have to agree with them, it just means that you give them the respect of not shoving your religion down their throats.

Angela, I went to a United Methodist Church for many years. I have never seen anything in any of their literature, books, hymnals or manuals which states that if one is not baptized they will go to hell.  You are mistaken, I believe.  If not, refer me to the literature of which you speak and I will personally check it out.  \

Anyone that knows anything about Christian denominations should be aware that the United Methodist Church is one of the most liberal of the denominations, and for them to make such a declaration as you have stated would be totally out of character.

Again, provide documentation or withdraw the accusation. I feel you have demeaned all Methodists, and the moderators can consider this a complaint.

Athanansius, it was in the Red UMC Hymnal, and I read it about 12 years ago.  I neither own that hymnal anymore nor remember the exact quotation.  And the last time I went to church with my grandmother, the parish had new hymnals, so you'd have to find the one that was in use in 1994 or earlier.  If I had one, I'd be happy to find the verse.

But I do know that hymnal.  Are you talking about the Apostles' Creed which states in it, "one baptism for the remission of sins?"  That's the only thing in there that could even come close to what your saying. I know the old and Methodist hymnals very well - and no place does it say that lack of baptism sends a person to hell.  You are misrepresenting the faith of Methodists, and I'm asking for an apology. 

I'd ask any fair-minded person not to pay any attention to this accusation, but look at the evidence which I will forthwith present to you.  Methodists have never taught that baptism is the means of regeneration (in fact, this is a Roman doctrine which is also taught in the Eastern Orthodox, Campbellite and Mormon churches).  Here is proof that Methodists do not agree with the doctrine of baptismal regeneration as is taught by the groups I have mentioned.  I am posting the Articles of Religion, modified from the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Book Of Common Prayer - Episcopalian, which are the primary doctrinal exposition of Methodism  Any person can read for themselves that baptism is not the "means" but a "sign." 

http://www.godonthe.net/cme/methdist/art_xpln.htm - http://www.godonthe.net/cme/methdist/art_xpln.htm

Actually one of the things that attracted me to the Church is the sinlessness of the soul at birth and the baptism at the age of reason.

However, I will not apologize for my personal experience.  Since I do not have the hymnal on hand, I cannot find the phrase.  I've been looking all over the internet of an online copy of the edition that was in used by my parish at that time.  I cannot find a copy online that is searchable other than just the hymns.  If you could provide me the link I will find you the phrase. 

But, my experience is my experience and I will not lie to save someone else's feelings.  Someone wanted to know why I left.  That is one of the reasons.  Or perhaps, the ministers in my parish were teaching off doctrine.  That happens in many churches around the country.

My family is still Methodist.  Understand I don't HATE Methodists.  I just disagree with their doctrines.

And you have me at a disadvantage for proving my statement.  Since I no longer have access to the very book in question.  So, end of discussion. 

Anyone who wants to know the Doctrines of the United Methodist Church may go to their offical website.

http://www.umc.org - http://www.umc.org   They do not have to take my word for it.  I, however, only can draw from what I read and what I was taught.

I should mention, that at the age of 15 I asked my minister to give me the confirmation classes.  He was leaving and asked me to wait for the new minister.  I agreed for Paster Crushank (a very wonderful man now with God) and Paster Cutchall came into the parsonage.  He refused me, saying at 16, I didn't need the classes, he'd just confirm me.  Later, he was found to have taken over $25,000 from the Church, had a stack of empty JD bottles in the parsonage after the Church kicked him out and later accusations from a number of the kids in the neighborhood started to surface.  He's dead now of a heroine overdose.  So, if I don't understand the Methodist Doctrine, its the fault of the ministry of the church. 

Anyone needed to learn can go the UMC website.  Just as I tell anyone if they want to know about my church they need to go to our official site.

Angela, I am really disgusted that you would make this accusation against a Methodist minister and then post it on a Muslim site - what for?  Your story does nothing but defame Methodist.  Why this vindictivness? Are you attempting to give the impression to Muslims here that Christian pastors cannot be trusted?  What is your motive?

People who live in glass houses, Angela, shouldn't throw stone:

http://lds-mormon.com/benson.shtml - http://lds-mormon.com/benson.shtml  

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-05-2001/0001566613&EDATE - http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&ST ORY=/www/story/09-05-2001/0001566613&EDATE

What you think the Catholics are the only ones who have people in power overstep there bounds?  Did you know Rosanne Barr was molested by her Mormon Bishop or that he knew about her molestation?  It happens in every Church. My point was the UMC is not squeaky clean. 

Pastor Charles Cutchall....Pennsylvania.  Go ahead and check it out.  He was cast out of the Methodist Church.  You should be able to find and obituary for him but its a small town of about 3000 people, there is no local paper. 

Actually, I have lived in Pennsylvania.  Should be hard for me to have one of my workers track it down.  However, the point I've made here is that you have gone out of your way to defame a whole denomination based on your so-called experience.  You have provided no definitive proof that anything Methodists teach is anywhere close to saying that the unbaptized with burn in hell (which is a Roman Catholic teaching, not Methodist). Second, you bring accusations against a dead man (possibly true) who may or may not have been involved in very un-Christianlike character, and portray this as one of the reasons you embraced Mormonism and left Christianity.

Well, if those two reasons were valid for you - then you must examine the fact that Mormonism teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation (which is why they perform vicarious baptisms in their temples), and also that Mormonism has just as much stuff going on in that sect that is immoral and contrary to Christ, as any other organization.

In other words, as I said before, don't throw rocks in glass houses. 

And you shouldn't automatically assume I'm lying.  You don't know if I'm one of his victims.  (I'm not but I personally know one.)  Someone wanted to know WHY, I told them.  I have a right to put forth my experiences because they are my reasons.  I do not make false accusations.  I speak from first hand experience.

I posted the UMC website.  If anyone wants to know about your Church, they can go there, they don't have to take my word for it.

Angela:  I too was raised as a Methodist, although I spent a lot of time at the Russian Orthodox church where my dad's family attended.  However, I officially attended the Methodist church, was baptised and confirmed there.  Sorry, but I remember nothing in their teaching about babies going to hell.  They do teach about original sin but you can open up the scriptures in the holy bible to get that information. We are born with a sin nature.  Do you have children?  Anyone with a toddler should have no problem with the doctrine of original sin.  Children have to be taught to be good, how to behave and the appropriate behavior in a civilized society.  They also are taught how to be Christians or muslims, or mormons, aren't they?  Further, the bible and the methodist church also, teach about the age of reason.  Angela, the jews also believe this as well.  in other words, a child under the age of reason (puberty) is not held accountable for his/her actions.  In any event, I am somewhat disturbed by your attitude and your refusal to cite the language in the UMC hymnal you claim makes these statements to which you refer.    It seems to me that your hostility stems from the fact that people disagree with you and ask you to prove an assertion that you have thus far not been able to substantiate more than the fact that someone called you a name.

Finally, where do you worship?  What exactly are your core beliefs?  You have yet to answer that question.

John Brown

 PS i agree with athanasious that it is wrong to take shots at a Christian minister-particularly on a muslim site- and who is not able to defend himself.  besides blaming him is an excuse.  He is a man, not the church. Men will always fail--oh--that's right--ORIGINAL SIN!

I have stated John a number of times, I no longer have access to the book in question or I would gladly do so.

My core beliefs are illustrated in the AoF posted in another thread.  I won't clog two threads.  There is also a lengthy thread from about 6 months ago that I explained those in.

Thirdly,  Is it any different to speak about the Methodist minister than it is to attack Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or any other of the Mormon people.  They are dead and cannot defend themselves.  That's called a double standard. 

And I do not believe in Original Sin, the First Sin brought mortality and death.  We are all responsible for our own sins, not for the sin of Adam.

I don't know what Muslims believe about original sin - but, I know what the Bible teaches on that: see Romans 5:12-21

Romans 5:12-21 (English Standard Version)

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=47 - English Standard Version (ESV)

The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright � 2001 by http://www.gnpcb.org/ - Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=28">

Original Sin is the concept that because Adam and Eve ate the apple, we are all born with the taint of sin on our souls.  The only way to cleanse this sin is through Baptism.  So if you go through you're entire life a saint, never once sin and then you die.  If you weren't baptized, you go to Hell.

The First Sin is when Adam ate the apple, death entered the world through that sin.  But we are all responsible for our own sins.  Not Adam's sin.

Angela, you are cofusing Roman Catholic dogma with Biblical doctrine.  Original sin is the doctrine taught in Scripture that all men died spiritually in Adam - but we are made alive in Christ. Also, physical death came into the world through Adam and to his descendents.

If you don't believe in original sin, then why are you growing old and dying?  Why did Jesus say you must be born-again (spiritually)? You inherited the Adamic nature, that's why you grow old and die.  You sin because of the Adamic nature.  What John Brown posted above about having to teach children to do the right thing is 100% on target.

But, just forget about the Roman limbo junk and the rest of their errors - baptism is a "sign" of salvation, as the Methodist Articles state - not the means to it.

check out this funny prank played by couple of dudes on JW

***such links should not be posted on IC forum, they only start problems***


is it legal to do this in US?

No its not legal, there was a man in Salt Lake, Mormon who was arrested on assault charges because a street preacher was defiling a pair of garments.  He walked up, pushed the man and grabbed the garments and left.  The street preacher filed assault charges and the man was convicted.  These guys went way farther than a shove.

As a moderator for IC forum group, I must ask that members stop discussing and bickering over "Christianity" here.  Athanasius and John Brown, there is no reason for you to continue to harass Angela.  She was merely complaining about a problem she has experienced and it appears that you have only come here to do more of the same to her.  If you did not notice, this is an Islamic website with guidelines that were made to uphold proper adab (manners).  All members are expected to do this regardless if they are Muslims or not.

Angela did not make a general statment regarding the Methodist Church but rather gave her personal experience.  She even stated that she doesn't hate the Methodist Church, but rather, she simply chooses not to be a Methodist.  That is her right and you do not have the right to come here and harass her about it. 

It appears to me that the two of you have merely found a means to proselytize your faith here which is not okay for you to do.  This is a Muslim forum group, not a Christian forum group.  If a Muslim wants to learn about Christianity, they know where to find christian chat groups and forums.  If you have no interest in Islam other than to try to convert some away from Islam or to harass Angela, then you should volunarily leave before you are forced to do so.

And, no, Islam doesn't teach the doctrine of 'original sin'.  Allah does not punish anyone for sins committed by another unless the former intentionally led the latter astray and the later was truly ignorant of the truth.  In that case, the person who intentionally led the other astray will be punished for doing so and may also be punished for any harm the latter may have done because of the formers actions. 

There is no way that Allah would punish future generations for something that a previous generation did.  That doctrine was created as a means to make the masses feel unworthy and in need of being 'saved'.  It created a dependency upon the church in the Christian faith for the masses.  It sets up a means by which the church got and continues to get individuals to accept Jesus as their personal savior and to control them.  In other words, the Christian Church (mainstream that is) used and still uses that false doctrine to lay a WHOOPER of a guilt trip on people. 

According to Islam, no human who dies before reaching the age of puberty will taste the fires of hell.  How can anyone who loves the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) believe for one second that any child will suffer eternity in hell?  Jesus (pbuh), himself, said that we needed to be like children in order to enter 'heaven'.  If little children are full of sin and of 'bad nature', then why should we strive to be like them?  The truth of the matter is they are pure of heart.  They are innocent. 

And, yes, I know the doctrine of 'original sin'.  I, like MANY other reverts to Islam, was a Christian for MANY years.  I will tell you just like the Texas Muslim revert who was in the last stage of his Christian Minstery program at the time he reverted to Islam told his mother who prays that he will revert back to Christianity; the probabliity of you reverting to Islam is infinitely greater than my returning to Christianity.  In fact, no TRUE Muslim would ever consider leaving Islam.  Alhamdulillah (Thank God!!!)  Subhan Allah (Praise God!!!)

Now, with that said, any further debate regarding Angela's CHOICE to be a Mormon or the experiences that led her to convert to Mormonism will be simply deleted.  And any debate regarding Christianity in general here will simply be deleted.  This thread was not started for that purpose.  So, John Brown and Athanasius, if you want to stay here to learn about Islam, I strongly suggest that you simply try to find some thread that will help do that.  And if you post, your posts are to be respectful and entail no defaming or proselytizing.  If I see anymore of this, you will be banned from IC forum.

AK, Sister Mishmish has already asked you not to say anything more about JW's.  You have been warned now twice.  If you can't say something nice about another faith, I strongly suggest that you respect the words of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and simply say nothing at all.

PAZ

Sister Khadija

***What part of my warning did you fail to understand?  Non-Muslims are not invited here to debate their faith.  They are invited here to learn about Islam.  It appears to me that your sole purpose here is to proselytize which is not permitted because this is a MUSLIM forum group.  We are here to learn about Islam.  We love our faith.  We do not beg others to come here; however, we warmly welcome them if they truly desire to learn about Islam."** 

Khadija1021 wrote: Now, with that said, any further debate regarding Angela's CHOICE to be a Mormon or the experiences that led her to convert to Mormonism will be simply deleted.  And any debate regarding Christianity in general here will simply be deleted.  This thread was not started for that purpose.  So, John Brown and Athanasius, if you want to stay here to learn about Islam, I strongly suggest that you simply try to find some thread that will help do that.  And if you post, your posts are to be respectful and entail no defaming or proselytizing.  If I see anymore of this, you will be banned from IC forum.

Thank you Sister Khadija.  I appreciate this. 

Jazak Allah Khair

Sister Kadija:  Where exactly did I proseletize?  I asked Angela to state her core values so that we would know what her belief system is.  I told her what I believe, and I told her that I believe she was wrong about her assertion that the Methodists believe that babies will go to hell.  I don't believe that, and most Christians don't believe that either. I do believe in the concept of original sin, however and this concept is backed up by Christian scripture.  I don't care what Angela believes.  I just want the truth and then we can all go on with our lives.  Are we not allowed to refute someone who makes an assertion that is untrue?  Why do you equate that with proselitizing?  In any event, i will research Angela's claims that her core values are on another thread. 

John Brown

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1593&KW=Mormonism&PN=0&TPN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1593& ;KW=Mormonism&PN=0&TPN=1

There is the forum that AhmadJoyia asked me for just after I joined IC. 

I will state, I don't want to reopen the discussion.  If people want to read it, they can.

Any other questions they can get answered at

http://www.lds.org - http://www.lds.org