Challenge for Muslims
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42303
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Topic: Challenge for Muslims
Posted By: Al Masihi
Subject: Challenge for Muslims
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 7:43am
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One event which until now shakes the very foundations of Islam the satanic verses, Mohammed according to all the great and ancient scholars of Islam (Al Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Saad, Waqidi, Bukhari, and many more) preached that Allat, Manat and Al Uzza pagan goddess could intercede on behalf of Allah and as soon as Mohammeds pagan enemies heard this they reconciled with him for a brief while and prostrated with him. But as soon as Mohammed revealed this revelation Jebreil (Gabriel) came down and told Mohammed that he had made a grave mistake and Mohammed now corrected his earlier revelation by condemning the polytheism of his people. Many Muslims will say this is a fake account but let's go to the Quran don't Muslims always bring us the challenge to produce something like the Quran well no need to because if this is a fabricated event then that means someone was able to conjure up a false Quranic Surah which would technically mean Allah lied since he said no one can make something like the Quran. So Muslims will either have to choose one of the following: 1. Mohammed said the satanic verses and Islam is false since it kind of destroys the whole concept of Tawheed in Islam. 2. Mohammed did not say this and this is fabricated and the Quran is false since Allah lied when he said no one can produce something like the Quran So clearly we can conclude Muslims have no way out of this argument. PS sorry for the long piece of writing tried to shorten it as much as possible. |
Replies:
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 9:21am
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Dear viewer, There is no reference of this incident in any authentic book of ahadith. There is no reference of this in the Quran. Its a fabricated story. The prophet never said that and scholarship, both Muslims and non Muslim is conclusive on its fabrication. Of course there are individuals and religious establishments who accept this fabrication. No Muslim believes in the authenticity. If Muslim historians have referred to this fabrication i their books, it was referred to as a fabrication. It is a non issue among Muslims and serous students of religion. Of course it is being raised by people who have refused to acknowledge the divine origin of Islam. They would concoct every possible story to ridicule or falsify Islam. Muslims are aware of it and they are not bothered such mean attacks. Aslam Abdullah
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Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 7:10am
Dr. Aslam wrote:Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 10:16pm
| If this was fabricated by the enemies of Islam then they must have tired to fake a verse Mohammed said to make the story believable so that means they attempted with success and produced something like the Quran so technically this would disapprove the Quran. Muslims of the 7th century and 8th century didn't even deny this event they acknowledged it and would try to explain it using apologetic arguments. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 11:29pm
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Let us make it a civil discussion. The answer has already been given. if you do not accept it, it is you way of thinking. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 11:42pm
| You must give a solid answer not an apologetic argument, Dr. Aslam. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 11:45pm
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The answer has already been given and if you do not want to hear this, live in your own echo. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 09 March 2018 at 1:04am
| With all due respect yiu didn't answer it Dr. Alsam you danced around it, it's a yes or no question. Did Mohammed really say the Gharaniq verse, if yes, then you know what that means, if no, then someone must have fabricated the event in which case he made an attempt to produce something like the Quran and at ont point people of the 7th and 8th century believed this story it undoes the Quranic challenge of produce a Surah like it. The Quran just puts forward a challenge it doesn't give the rules and regulations regarding the challenge, it says produce one like it and according to you they did. I don't see anyway one can really escape from this argument since it's either yes or no. |
Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 09 March 2018 at 7:33am
No No thats not a fabrication it was writen in the Holy Quran Muhammad was blameless.
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Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 09 March 2018 at 4:23pm
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Peace. Let me repeat again. The story is fabricated. It was fabricated to develop the argument that you are pursuing. Muslims firmly and stoutly believe that ever word of the Quran is from God and the Prophet communicated the message to human beings with honesty and integrity. If you do not believe that he taught that God is one and unique and if you do not believe that He is the creator of all of us and He guided humanity to the right path, you are essentially misreading the Quran and trying to raise non issues. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 09 March 2018 at 11:42pm
Can you lay down the reasons which make you think that the story is [entirely] fabricated ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 10 March 2018 at 12:34am
First: Dr Aslam:Assalamu alaika. You have my respect. I am hoping to learn from your patience. Please pray for all of us. I did not really want to write about Christianity... mainly out of respect for some other members in this forum (such as CaringHeart and DavidC). However, now that 'Falsehood Personified' has joined us... @ Al-Masihi, What a childish challenge! You raise a
challenge using a trivial, fabricated incident (again!) which has no impact
whatsoever on Islam and its Teachings and Values, and which has been refuted by
many scholars (I mean: Do you see ANY Muslims today worshiping those Goddesses?!)… and YET you are blind to the ‘enormous’ challenge that is facing
your ‘religion’ (Christianity) today and throughout its entire history…. And
this one is not fabricated, because it’s all over your (current) bible read by
billions today… Namely: How to turn the clock back, and eliminate
all the changes and corruption that have riddled Christianity, and turn it back
into the ‘proper religion’ that Prophet Jesus PBUH once preached… I have now started reading the bible, and I
have to say: I am shocked by what I am finding; things that I am going to have
to start to ‘inform and educate’ other Muslims about… in order to expose the
extent of corruption that has been perpetrated on Christianity… So ‘Watch this
space’… Let’s start with a simple question
(challenge): Muslims today are following Islam… Are Christians following
Christianity?... Answer: NO… nobody is following the teachings in the bible: (Question 1): Do Christians fast like Jesus?
When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:16-18) And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. (Matthew 4:2) And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. (Mark 9:29) People had complained to Jesus saying, “Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?” (Luke 5:33). But Jesus replied that as long as he is with them his disciples should not fast, but after he is taken away then “they will fast in those days” (Luke 5:35). So after they had fasted and prayed… (Acts 13:3) Answer: Christians do not fast; neither do they put oil on their heads. The disciples fasted like Jesus after his departure, and Muslims fast like them too!
(Question 2): Do they abstain from drinking wine? and...Do they hate their family members?
Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (Leviticus 10:9) "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)
Answer: We know the Bible strictly forbids getting drunk and prohibits drinking wine (Leviticus 10:9) Christianity is the cause of the social corruptions today, so how many Christians hate their family members, or even 'try' to abide by the teachings of the Bible?
(Question 3): Do they pray in the manner of Jesus? And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. (Matthew 26:39) Answer: Do Christians pray like Jesus? The answer is no. The scripture above seems to imply that Christians are blind people who cannot discern the fact with their own eyes that Jesus prayed in physical manner. Other significant examples:
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. (Genesis 17:1-4) Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker; (Psalms 95:6) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. (Revelations 7:11-12) And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until eventide, he and the elders of And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them. (Numbers 20:6)
(Question 4): Sell everything and give to the poor? http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=14&verse=33&version=kjv" rel="nofollow - So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33) "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. “When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Luke 18:21-22) http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=9&version=kjv" rel="nofollow - Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, (Matthew 10:9)
Answer: Should Christians accept poverty and sell everything they have? This teaching is neglected because the Christian West is known as the consumerist society.
(Question 5): Is marrying divorced women adultery? But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:32, 19:9)
Answer: Marrying a divorced woman is adultery? How many Christians have broken this law?
(Question 6): Are they supposed to gouge their eyes? Cut off their hands?
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the
(Question 7): Are they allowed to save money?
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. (Matthew 6:19-20) Answer: Jesus seems to be forbidding banks to exist, since the words “where thieves break in and steal” implies the storage of money and bank robbers! Jesus rejects the accumulation of money, that’s why he overturned the money changers at the
Volume 2, Book 24, Number 488: Narrated Zaid bin Wahab: I passed by a place called Ar-Rabadha and by chance I met Abu Dhar and asked him, "What has brought you to this place?" He said, "I was in Sham and differed with Muawiya on the meaning of (the following verses of the Quran): 'They who hoard up gold and silver and spend them not in the way of Allah.' (9.34). Muawiya said, 'This verse is revealed regarding the people of the scriptures." (Sahih Bukhari)
(Question 8): Will rich people enter Heaven?
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the
(Question 9): Can they move mountains?
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you (Matthew 17:20) Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. (Matthew 21:21)
Answer: No. And don't anybody tell me that this was not in the 'literal sense', because: Remember when Jesus cursed the fig tree and it withered, bearing the sign that no fruit will grow from it again. Jesus himself made it clear:
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. (Matthew 21:19)
* Since the fig tree withered in the literal sense, it means that Christians can also move mountains in the literal sense too! This is precisely what Matthew 21:21 is dictating.
(Question 10): Can they walk on snakes?
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. (Luke 10:19)
(Question 11): Are they absolutely perfect?
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)
(Question 12): Don’t practice good deeds in public?
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)
(Question 13): Do you follow this verse? Nobody really does.
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:39)
(Question 14): Do not worry about tomorrow?
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?
"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' (Matthew 6:25-31) Answer: It’s obvious that today’s Christians worry about materialistic things like clothes and shopping. They hang out and spend time in the market place, contradicting the teachings of Jesus “To millions of Christians, Christ came to show them “the way” in which they should live, yet to what extent do they follow His advice? It seems that prefer to worship Him rather than follow Him. It’s easier on human nature, besides it takes only a few hours one day a week. Thus they are free to spend the rest of the time in the marketplace, doing the very opposite of what He taught. The result is we have sunk to the very depths of materiality; money is now our savior, and only knowledge that helps us make it is of any value (Lloyd Graham, Myths and Deceptions of the Bible, pp. 324)
(Question 15): Are they allowed to worship two masters?
"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, (Luke 16:13)
Answer: Christians worship Jesus as a ‘divine mediator’ between God and men. They also construct statues when the Bible prohibits the making of graven images. The Roman Catholics worship Mary and the Holy Ghost!
(Question 16): Will everyone burn in Hell according to the Bible?!
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. (Mark 9:49) KJV, 1611 Everyone will be salted with fire. (NIV), 1970
(Question 17): Should Christians contest people who sue them?
And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. (Matthew 5:40)
(Question 18): Are Christians allowed to get borrowed materials back? Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. (Luke 6:30) Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:42) And in another thread, here: http://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42286&title=hello" rel="nofollow - http://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42286&title=hello
Really?... even if no one is following it properly?... In your dreams maybe. Sorry... I have to go now and continue to read the bible...  ... In the words of someone famous: I'll be beck! ... MIAW |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 10 March 2018 at 1:10am
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If it's fabricated then you'll have no problem refuting it, if it's fabricated then that means they had to invent a false verse in order to make it realistic and in turn would destroy the challenge of he Quran. Your attacking Christianity to avoid the question kind of shows me your unable to answer. Muslims don't fast like Jesus do, we fast for forty days and forth nights just because an unpracticing Christian doesn't do it doesn't mean Christians do t do it. We fast about six items in the year this is what we're supposed to do and our fast is way harder then the Muslims. You sleep all day then at night eat like crazy, that's not how Jesus fasted but that's not fasting. Christians aren't supposed to brag about their fasting either like Muslims do. Leviticus is Old Testament therefore not followed by Christians it's Jewish law not Christian law and here are the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Moderate_Alcohol_Consumption_and_its_Health_Benefits" rel="nofollow - https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Moderate_Alcohol_Consumption_and_its_Health_Benefits Jesus didn't comman us to pray on our face or pray while standing he just said pray. When Jesus cursed the fig tree which was sign of prosperity to ancient Israel he meant that he was pronouncing his judgement on Israel. The point Jesus was making is that even a little bit of faith, faith the size of a tiny mustard seed—can overcome mountainous obstacles in our lives. The West is no longer Christian recent studies show Athiests form the majority of the western world and neither is western culture explicitly Christian. Although the west once based itself on the Bible these principles don't exist anymore. If a man divorces his wife for no reason other then his own desires or desires for another women then that is like adultery. Christians shouldn't hoard off money, money causes corruption we should only keep that which helps us survive and give away the rest. Icons aren't graven images first of all and technically Christ is also one with the father so we're not serving to masters. I see your quoting from answering Christianity my advise were to answer from your own knowledge not a junk website like that. Osama Abdullah has lost very debate and had lost to every Christian he challenged. Also holding Christianity to the standards of people is pretty dumb I can easily point to the huge amount of terrorism and crime in the Islamic world and say look how many Muslims aren't following Islam correctly. The religion itself matters not the people even if every Christian was breaking every command in the Bible doesn't take away the perfectness of this great religion. By the way I want an answer to my challenge and a yes or no answer. |
Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 10 March 2018 at 2:46am
Its a undeniable fact that before Muhammad was born Alah had three daughters. Muslim scholars like Ceaser Farah have stated this about Allah. Allah the paramount deity iof pagan Arabia,was the target of worship in varying degrees of intensity from the southernmost tip of Arabia to the Mediterranean. So how do you define Allah?
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Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 10 March 2018 at 8:20am
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I think you are totally confused about your own argument. You are raising dust from your own feet and then complaining your eyes are blurry. The Quran was revealed upon Prophet Muhammad. He ensured that the Quran is preserved, memorized and written down in his life time. If a verse is not in the Quran, it is not part of the divine revelation. Since the verse you are quoting is not part of the Quran, it was not revealed. Someone must have fabricated this story to serve the interests of some individual or religious groups. You are raising this issue, because you are trying to prove Islam a false religion. You are not the only one. There are many who came before you and would come after you. Would their opinion change the fact that Quran, as Muslims view, is the final word of God. You are entitled to reject this idea. But Muslims do not share your opinion. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 10 March 2018 at 9:53am
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Dr. Aslam's polite explanation makes perfect sense to this Christian. We can discuss MIAW's points one by one, but I think he/she was trolled into an explosive reaction. I blame the troll for that, not the trolled. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 10 March 2018 at 10:05am
| I asked a question only, the Quran says produce a Surah like it, how does it make sense that I must produce a Surah like it yet it has to be part of the Quran...? This makes no sense at all. The Quran merely states produce a Surah like it however it is you Muslims now who are changing the words of the Quran to make the argument disappear. The Quran states no rules and regulations (like I see you doing) when it says produce a Surah like it. If someone fabricated it then the challenge of the Quran has been beaten. Early Muslim scholars of the 7th and 8th century did not deny this as fabricated either. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 10 March 2018 at 5:07pm
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The challenge of the Quran still stands. Try to understand what the Quran is saying. It is simply telling that the words being to Prophet Muhammad are divine words. These words are not being sent to any one else. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: akthus
Date Posted: 11 March 2018 at 12:41am
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The biggest issue I have with Muhammad being a messenger is that all previous prophets had been spoken to by God. In his case the messages did not come directly from God but something claiming to be an angel. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 11 March 2018 at 12:55pm
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Muslims believe that God does not communicate with human beings face to face. He sends his message through the arch angel. It is a belief the say way as you believe that God speaks to prophets directly. Whose belief is right and whose is wrong? The Quran says that rather than disputing these issues and having hatred of each other on them, let us come to a point of agreement about the oneness of God and the divine guidance as well as the day of judgment. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 11 March 2018 at 1:36pm
A bit confused here. I was told the Miraj was a conversation between God and Muhammad. Would you please elaborate? ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 11 March 2018 at 1:41pm
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Miraj is not considered a face to face dialogue. Moreover, we were referring to the revelation as preserved in the Quran. It is the Muslim belief that the Quran was delivered in words to Prophet Muhammad by Angel Gabriel, ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: debatedebate
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 7:44pm
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Never did We send a Messenger
or a Prophet before you, but; when he did recite the revelation or narrated or
spoke, Shaitan (Satan) threw (some falsehood) in it. But Allah abolishes that
which Shaitan (Satan) throws in. Then Allah establishes His Revelations. And
Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise: (Quran 22 52, Mushin Khan) And We did not send before you any messenger rasūl — this is a prophet who has been commanded to deliver a Message — or prophet nabī — one who has not been commanded to deliver anything — but that when he recited the scripture Satan cast into his recitation what is not from the Qur’ān but which those to whom he the prophet had been sent would find pleasing. The Prophet s had during an assembly of the men of Quraysh after reciting the following verses from sūrat al-Najm Have you considered Lāt and ‘Uzzā? And Manāt the third one? 5319-20 added as a result of Satan casting them onto his tongue without his the Prophet’s being aware of it the following words ‘those are the high-flying cranes al-gharānīq al-‘ulā and indeed their intercession is to be hoped for’ and so they the men of Quraysh were thereby delighted. Gabriel however later informed him the Prophet of this that Satan had cast onto his tongue and he was grieved by it; but was subsequently comforted with this following verse that he might be reassured of God’s pleasure thereat God abrogates nullifies whatever Satan had cast then God confirms His revelations. And God is Knower of Satan’s casting of that which has been mentioned Wise in His enabling him Satan to do such things for He does whatever He will. (* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn Quran 22 52) |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 8:01pm
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As I have mentioned earlier that the Quran does not have those verses. Its a story and there is no substance in this story. Muslims in general do not believe in the accuracy of this story. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: debatedebate
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 9:40pm
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This account is there in tafsirs of the greatest Islamic scholars like AL-Jalalyn, Ibn Abbas & Al-Wahidi & have been accepted by Muslims for centuries. Now you reject them? Even if you reject the story in the tafsir, verse 22-52 is very clear of what it means, that Satan have made all prophets to recite false verses, which means they were not able differentiate it from verse from Allah. Tq |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 9:47pm
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As I stated, a tafsir is not the Quran and this expression is not in the Quran. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 16 March 2018 at 7:31am
| Dr. Aslam I think your ignoring the fact that the Quran never gives regulations when it puts forth the challenge to produce a Surah like it. The Quran never said to produce a Surah that has to be part of the Quran itself since that wouldn't make any sense. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 16 March 2018 at 9:10am
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You are adamant in proving the accuracy of this story and your assertion that the Quran is not from God. As I told you earlier, Muslims do not share your views. Muslims have rejected these views. Why are you wasting your time by repeating what Muslims have already rejected. If the purpose of your writing is to create doubt in the minds of Muslims, then be assured, Muslims have no doubt about the accuracy of the Quran or the authenticity of the Prophet. Also, no Muslim is forcing you to believe their view point. Leave this for the final day. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 16 March 2018 at 11:13am
I believe his pointis not that it should or should not be considered part of the Koran but if the passage is of similar quality to pass the challenge. In that does it? And if not why not? |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 16 March 2018 at 11:14am
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This is what the verse 22:42 says Yet whenever We sent forth any apostle or prophet before thee, and he was hoping [that his warnings would be heeded], Satan would cast an aspersion on his innermost aims: but God renders null and void whatever aspersion Satan may cast; and God makes His messages clear in and by themselves for God is all-knowing, wise It simply means that Satanic forces would try to create doubt and aspersions in the mind of believers but it would not make an impact upon the believers. What you are doing is exactly what the Quran is alluding to. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 16 March 2018 at 11:20am
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Well Tim, the quality of the text is determined from the standard of the Quran not on the basis its literary value but on the basis of its divine origin. The Quran is essentially saying that the Guidance in the form of revelation comes from the divine only. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 16 March 2018 at 1:57pm
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Asep once described the way the latent meaning in the etymology of the individual words in Qu'ran influences the manifest meaning of a general reading. It would seem that would be one scholastic criterion for discerning Qu'ranic 'quality' from Arabic wisdom literature or poetry. Certainly one would need to use the original language. Perhaps comparing the master poet Rumi to the Qur'an. I have read some al Ghazali but not "The Incoherence of the Philosophers". The title indicates it may be of value in this discussion. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 1:51am
The same obvious arguments I make were made back then with the same lack of actually dealing with them. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 1:52am
So the challenge is to make a piece of writing that is as good as the Koran with the criteria of being as good defined by being the Koran? I can see why that is a safe bet. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 8:32am
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We know your point of view but do not agree with it. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: akthus
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 8:45am
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The real challenge for Muslims and other religions that claim theirs is the true religion is to be transparent and base answers on proven fact. Unfortunately it can not be stated as fact that the Koran is the word of God because no evidence has been produced to suggest it is. The same can be said about the Bible which was produced by maybe 30 to 40 people. The bible is just a collection of stories. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 8:55am
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You raised a very interesting point. No religious book was compiled in the life time of the person that claims that he was getting the revelations from God in his life time eith the exception of the Quran. All texts except the Quran were written by the disciples based on what they heard. The Quran was compiled in the life time of the prophet under his supervision. Now this issue is a mute issue. We ha e people believing primarily that most of us are born in that faith. Let us make the best of that belief system. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 11:23am
The book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith. He is the originator of the cult, Mormons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon The church of Scientology was made up by L.Ron Hubard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology Both obviously drivel of course but they still managed to create religons. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 1:37pm
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@DebateDebate Thanks for https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42303&PID=215320&title=challenge-for-muslims#215320" rel="nofollow - this contribution ! Actually I'm impressed by your knowledge of details, are you a former Muslim ? I have read a good part of the Quran (before I fell asleep) and I was aware of 2:106,. However I did not stumble over/realize the importance of 22:52 before. 22.52 clearly "admits" that Satan managed to introduce noise into the God->Prophet transmission channel (How could this happen, was He busy elsewhere in these moments ?). It also makes the [historicity of the] Satanic Verses much more likely than I ever thought before since it sounds indeed like a direct response to these "allegations". In essence this verse is nothing else than a nuclear meltdown of the Islamic dogma of the "direct untouched message" from god. Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 1:54pm
@Dr Aslam
Sorry, this is incorrect. Joseph Smith compiled the "book of mormons" during his lifetime. It definitely is one of the fastest growing religious communities. They even claim [as everybody else] that their religion is the fastest growing own earth ! Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 4:29pm
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Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet and the Quran was the last testament. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: akthus
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 1:12am
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The key point is belief. Muslims believe but can not prove that Muhammad was a prophet. Neither can Muslims prove that the Koran is the word of God because the only person who claims it was was Muhammad. It is all circular in reference. Everybody is entitled to believe what they want and practice what they want. My only objection is that when it comes to Muslim clerics pushing stories and opinions as fact when there is no evidence to back it up. I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet for this reason : When he first encountered the entity he saw in the cave there was no mention that it was an angel. He actually thought he was possessed by a demon. Also God never protected him when he was poisoned and died of it. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 10:47am
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Faith is a domain of belief. Muslims are the only people in the three monotheistic religions whose early is preserved in a manner that can be authenticated. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 11:01am
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Apparently, there is a group of people who are here to prove that Islam is anti Christ or a false religion. There is nothing new. Such people have always existed and would always exist. They would pretend anything to make their point. The important thing is not to engage with them in any heated discussion. They are here for a purpoe. They want Muslims to provoke and call names of their religious beliefs and leaders. We are not in the business of proving anyone false. We are here to present our point of view without any claims. People themselves would realize the truth on the basis of facts. So if my Muslim brothers and sisters ever feel that they are verbally abused or some people are cursing Islam or trying to prove it wrong, be assured that they cannot do much besides what they are doing. If your faith is strong, no one can shake you. These are the people about whom wise people always say that they are quick to raise fingers at others without looking at their own self. People might attribute it to Jesus, but it was added in the Biblical literature some 400 to 800 years after the Jesus. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 11:36am
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I am a Christian and agree with Dr. Aslam's attitude. The purpose of this board is to provide Islamic education, not to be a outlet for polemics. Christians are welcome guests, but the guest/host relationship should always be respected. Imagine yourself pouring tea for your fellow board members when posting. There has always been a policy here to include scriptural references whenever possible. New members please take notice. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 11:40am
I presume I am not in that group as I have no faith in anything.
1, If you are not here to demonstrate that my lack of faith in any god is false/wrong/unimformed why have any sort of Islam for none-Muslims section etc? 2, How do you present a view without making any claims? Do you not claim that your God is real? Surely you have miss-written this. 3, Please present facts to support your views. If they are wrong don't be surprised when you are told so. We all get things worng and the internet is the best tool ever for quickly showing this. It produces a rough an tumble style of debate. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 12:05pm
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Well we should try to have an open mind to understand anything. We should be respectful without calling names and if there is a dispute in facts or in opinion we should recognize it and move forward. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 12:15pm
You are on the internet my friend. Here you have come to find people who disagree with you. You have found some. You may well not be used to people openly disagreeing with you. You may find that an affront. Especially when they can support their positions very clearly and effectively. Welcome to the information age. |
Posted By: debatedebate
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 9:42pm
I'm from a mixed background & yes I do have Muslim relatives. I don't identify myself with any 'ism' but just continue exploring.
This is M Asad's translation. The one I gave is Mushin Khan. So your implying Asad is more accurate. Ok. Also you reject the gharaniq story even though it is accepted by Muslims and scholars for centuries. Ok now just have a look at the tafsir by the great Imam Al-Jalalayn (which you reject); And We did not send before you any messenger rasūl — this is a prophet who has been commanded to deliver a Message — or prophet nabī — one who has not been commanded to deliver anything — but that when he recited the scripture Satan cast into his recitation what is not from the Qur’ān but which those to whom he the prophet had been sent would find pleasing. The Prophet s had during an assembly of the men of Quraysh after reciting the following verses from sūrat al-Najm Have you considered Lāt and ‘Uzzā? And Manāt the third one? 5319-20 added as a result of Satan casting them onto his tongue without his the Prophet’s being aware of it the following words ‘those are the high-flying cranes al-gharānīq al-‘ulā and indeed their intercession is to be hoped for’ and so they the men of Quraysh were thereby delighted. Gabriel however later informed him the Prophet of this that Satan had cast onto his tongue and he was grieved by it; but was subsequently comforted with this following verse that he might be reassured of God’s pleasure thereat God abrogates nullifies whatever Satan had cast then God confirms His revelations. And God is Knower of Satan’s casting of that which has been mentioned Wise in His enabling him Satan to do such things for He does whatever He will. (* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn Quran 22 52) Now, read the following Authentic sunnah within the context of the above tafsir & Quran 53-19. Did Satan managed to make the prophet to do something else too before Gabriel informed him what happened? Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet (ﷺ) performed a prostration when he finished reciting Surat-an-Najm, and all the Muslims and pagans and Jinns and human beings prostrated along with him. USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 385 Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4862The Muslims have full faith in the prophet & would follow any of his act without question but why would the Pagans who reject Muhammad & Allah prostrate along if it is not to their gods Lāt and ‘Uzzā?and Manāt. Or this Sahih Al- Bukhari hadith is also fabricated? Otherwise please explain this hadith. Thanks
As long one is civil & provide the references for their comments , I don't think Muslims have any problem discussing it. Isn't it they believe Allah & the truth on their side? So why fear? Ok, since you are a Christian here to get educated on Islam, maybe you would like to learn more on the following Quranic verse & Sunnah which touch on Christians. Regards And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork. (Quran 5 14) Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (ﷺ)? I said: Yes. Reference : Sahih Muslim 2767 d The Book of Repentance In-book reference : Book 50, Hadith 60 USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 37, Hadith 6668 |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 11:13pm
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Peace, You quoted a hadith and I would forward you my article on this subject that would give details of this and similar ahadith. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 19 March 2018 at 12:22am
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Re: 5:14 - This is an example of particular Christians behavior being used to make a point. The point of Quran 5 is how Muslims should behave, not a general scolding of Christians. Christians have flaws, and commenting on this is not offensive. Almost every preacher has a sermon on this subject. The interesting part of 5:14 to me is that the enmity and hate are created by Allah. The bible refers to this process as God "hardening the heart". It is used in explaining Pharoh's behavior (Exodus) and atheism in general (Romans 1). God withdraws and leaves the individual to their own animal instincts. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 21 March 2018 at 4:53pm
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Allah tells people to love each other, only among men there are out and violates the command of their Lord. Allah invites into salvation but some humans do not want to follow it. However, it can not be separated from the provisions of Allah that mankind will be like that (sunnatullah), some of them are given hidayah (guidance), and some are not, so very lucky those who have been given hidayah by Allah. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 21 March 2018 at 11:35pm
The proving of the point depends on the followers of Islam, I asked a question yet I received no basefull answer. Also another fun fact is that the original Hadithof Al Gharaniq had an isnaad going back all the way to Ibn Abbas and even now the broken pieces of the Isnaad leading back to Ibn Abbas can be seen in many sources aswell.
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Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 22 March 2018 at 6:06pm
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Our understanding of the verse is different Christianity divided itself into sects and Christians fought against each and grew in hostility and animosity of each other because they deviated from the genuine teachings of Jesus. Perhaps you did not read the response about hadith. There is an article on the subject and it will be up soon. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 23 March 2018 at 6:02am
Per hadith (see Ling's biography) the Christian sects familiar to Muhummad were Nestorian and Ebionite. Most Christians today agree these early sects did have issues. Qu'ran 5 teaches a similar but different monotheism to the pagans of the Quraysh. Criticism of the early Christian religion are fine points of definition and not the primary message. Would you agree with this? ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Dr. Aslam
Date Posted: 23 March 2018 at 9:33am
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The Quran asks its believer to accept monotheism without assigning a son or son to God. ------------- Best Regards, Aslam Abdullah |
Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 25 March 2018 at 3:02am
Yes DavidC, your explanation is true. thanks. |