Mitochondrial DNA
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Topic: Mitochondrial DNA
Posted By: fu7ion
Subject: Mitochondrial DNA
Date Posted: 01 February 2018 at 5:15am
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Assalamu Alaykom
My question is how the clearly identifiable bacterial traits of the mitochondria in Eukaryotic cells, (such as human cells), including circular (bacterial) DNA, bacterial cell division, and surface proteins are explained in Islam. The current predominant theory correlates to evolution and early symbiotic activity, which I have been led to believe is contrary to Islamic beliefs. Since this is the case, what would the Islamic explanation of this phenomena be, if any? Thank you in advance. |
Replies:
Posted By: Aziza25
Date Posted: 04 February 2018 at 5:28am
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Salam,
If we go back to the source of the apparent "issue" you are talking about. The opposition between evolution vs creation is a historical problem between the church and some scientists, which has later expended and has been used by anti-believers to mislead people. |
Posted By: Aziza25
Date Posted: 04 February 2018 at 5:32am
| In fact, There is nothing in the evolution THEORY that excludes the existence of a designer and nothing in the Quran excludes the possibility that living organisms evolved through time. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 09 February 2018 at 5:45am
Well, yes and no. Of course are there no comments on [the possibility] of evolution in the Quran, but this is not a surprise because at Muhammad's time this was not a subject of discussion/knowledge. However, an imaginary person like Adam (who probably never existed for real) was -according to the Quran- directly created by God. Evolution theory reduces this celestial descend to a descent from the apes - which not the same. The same applies for us: Instead as being made by god out of dust, clay or water (you're free to choose) the evolutionary process was quite different from what the Quran wants to make us believe. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Aziza:
Posted By: fu7ion
Date Posted: 09 February 2018 at 11:15pm
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My question however was not on the original conflict between religion and evolution, but a simple query into how Islam could explain foreign DNA existing within a supposedly created being. Would the mitochondra not simply be another organelle within our cells if this were the case?
I find it particularly curious that the DNA of the mitochondria is observed to be related to other bacterial species that exist today, and exhibit characteristically bacterial reproduction within our cells. Also the fact that upon removal of the mitochondria from a human cell, another cannot be independently reproduced. Although I don't like to admit it, the evidence all seems to directly dispute creation, like with Adam... |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 13 February 2018 at 3:17am
I understood, but I guess you will never get a decent answer to this question here. As soon as science enters in conflict with Islam the subject gets immediately psychologically repressed. Your question is highly specific and I experienced that even much simpler question like: "why do the Bonobos have 98% of the genes in common with us ?" or "why does the human https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263034/ - embryo develop a 10�12 vertebrae tail during the 5th to 6th week ?" and many many more questions never got answered. It is a no-go area. This lack of competence becomes all to visible when you look at the "scientific miracles in the Quran", where people without any scientific knowledge launch themselves into the wildest speculations - and nobody within Islam is willing to stand up against this hokuspokus. Guess why ! Just to pick one case: Did you read the third thread here in "Science and Technology" ? The title is "The theory of evolution has been shattered" and the thread starts with: "Islam is the truth. Islam is the true religion". Isn't that sad & funny at the same time ? Sorry, it seems that I got a bit carried away by my emotions... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once you have understood this fact, I think there is no way back... I know it's hard: Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Pete
Date Posted: 14 March 2018 at 5:04am
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Just because a religious text states that Adam was created by God it doesn't imply that He didn't create him through evolution. Also, that a religious text being taken literally is not inherent to all religions. I know that the bible used by Jews can be interpreted by them according to scientific facts. This is what Maimonides teaches in his book The Guide for the Perplexed which is adhered to by Jews. Catholics are freely allowed to accept evolution since Pope John Paul II declared that evolution need not be inconsistent with Christianity. Other Christian sects don't accept what the Vatican holds to be true though.
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Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 24 March 2018 at 6:50am
In Islam Adam was directly created by god (out of clay). Who's right ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: fu7ion
Date Posted: 26 March 2018 at 5:50am
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@pete What purpose would there be for god to create a text which requires the twisting of words, and the complete discarding of other information provided. If it was the so called 'book for all mankind' would it not have remained consistent in its message throughout all time. If a text requires such complex manipulation in order to even remotely fit in with the current observation of the world, I ask, is this truly a divine text? And for how long will this charade of twisting words until it makes sense last in our ever growing library of understanding of our world. It simply does not make sense to me why a god would create such a confusing and factually incorrect book, however it confuses me more how individuals feel it correct to continue manipulating its words to remain faithful.
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Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 06 April 2018 at 11:59am
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I think you summarized the situation exactly as it is. This is why I consider Islam as the most vulnerable of all abrahamic religions. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: New Israel is Muslim
Date Posted: 19 June 2018 at 7:13pm
The evidence supports Adam and Eve and Noah existed. You just have be willing to accept the Truth. Adam was not the first male human God created, and there were females of the human race before Eve. You have Eve as the mother of all the living and the other females made in the image and likeness of God as humans, according to the Old Testament. Eve was the pure and perfect woman. Noah settled in Eastern Turkey/Western Iran area. And there are two paternal haplogroups widespread among Muslims in the Middle East that have their origin in that location. Y-DNA Haplogroups I and J, paternal line. Y-DNA I and J came from Mt Ararat region and spread out north, east south and west. God said Noah and his sons are the only survivors of man, that is because there were other non-female survivors of the Flood, they just were judged to be the filth that caused the Flood, so they are not man but something like jinn. Ifrits. The Israelites believed there were pre-Adamite races mixed together in with the inhabitants of the earth. The jewish historian Josephus makes passing mention of this saying Cain encountered these pre-Adamites when he went into the wilderness. It is easy to identify the sons of Noah (Y-DNA I and J). Haplogroup Y-DNA J is universally accepted as the Semites. I would add that J2 is Semitic and J1 is Hamitic. Y-DNA I is Jepheth. This fits perfectly on a map in the table of nations. Much harder to find out who are the daughters of Eve. The other females are not mentioned as losing their image and likeness of God after the flood, when their men are made mention of no longer being men, because Noah and sons were the only men left on earth. Individuals like Byran Sykes wrote a book on the 7 daughters of Eve and says practically only mtDNA N are the daughters of Eve, specifically R0 (H and V), JT, U and X. The ones that came from the Middle East as origin are among these. Haplogroup mtDNA M is a foreign haplogroup linked to Mongolians (Y-DNA C) and eventually Mongoloids (Y-DNA NOPQR). |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 21 June 2018 at 1:18pm
@Strange Name
Can you cite the scientific reviews/articles which are at the basis of your claims ? Thanx: Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: fu7ion
Date Posted: 21 June 2018 at 9:49pm
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"The evidence supports Adam and Eve and Noah existed. You just have be willing to accept the Truth. Adam was not the first male human God created, and there were females of the human race before Eve." This statement goes into direct conflict of the teachings of Abrahamic religions, as Adam and Eve are unanimously stated to be the first of CREATION. Key word there is creation, as god claims to have created them from clay and his own "light". Given this, going back to my initial question, how can near distinct evidence for evolution from single cell eukaryotes exist in a creature that was created external from an evolutionary path. These two are therefore mutually exclusive and thus discussing the genealogy of said individuals is a moot point and rather negligible. In any regard citation and evidence is required for such information as mentioned by airmano. The DNA being discussed here is not human DNA, nor is it part of the human genome. It is mitochondrial DNA, seperate from the human genome, therefoe, discussing the origins of distinctly human DNA does not answer my original question. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 21 June 2018 at 11:49pm
So the Aborigional Austrailians who's DNA has had no mixing with outsiders for 60.000 years or so do not disprove the world flood idea???
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Posted By: New Israel is Muslim
Date Posted: 23 July 2018 at 7:40pm
No, the flood story is true. Because the Aboriginees are pre-Adamites. The sufis believe the pre-Adamites were jinn among other Muslims believing this too. Personally I would only place the label of jinn on genocidal pre-Adamites, that refused to serve Adam. Two groups of pre-Adamites are among the worst pre-Adamites with no link to dwelling in Garden of Eden, as Adam. The first group of pre-Adamites is the Mongolians, who went out to lands and where they went the natives of those lands died off. I have encountered others who believed the original Devil in the Garden of Eden was a Mongolian. The Israelites in Jeremiah 31:27 and many other passages believe that there were pre-Adamites out there mixed with the seed of Adam. “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man ("Adam" in hebrew) and the seed of beast." The Israelites already were shepherds of flocks, that is not what's Jeremiah is speaking about. Jeremiah is speaking about the pre-Adamites. If everyone from all around the globe is from Noah, then Noah was an black African from the Congo or deeper in Africa living 170,000 years ago, which is ridiculous and wrong. And then you are rejecting what the ancients knew, along with pinning the jinn on the wrong individuals. So I would not label all pre-Adamite man as jinn. Just the ones with the horrible criminal record against the innocent. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 25 July 2018 at 9:47am
Well you can see why ther rest of the world feels threatened by any Moslim with any power. Anybody who does not fit with the story of the world flood that deinatly did not happen is to be killed as a devil. No. There was no world flood. It is a story that could not have happened. If you understand any physical geography you would understand that every river valley in the world shows utterly undenyable evidence that there has never been a world flood. The shape of every valley would be very different.
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Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 25 July 2018 at 5:08pm
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Here is a link to the genetic science finding based on Adam Y-DNA being cloned and subject to mutations from which the different "common" ancestors evolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup The finding is that Adam (the father of 99,999%) of humanity comes from western Africa (Nigeria/Cameroon) and the rest 0,001% also from there. It doesn't mean that in that time other humans didn't exist, but they were all superseded by the offspring of that man, which has spread out of Africa where it mixed with Neanderthals and other hominids. There comes the light skin color from. The strange thing about mixing is, that mixing Neanderthal male and Homo sapiens female, only the daughters survived. Mixing Homo sapiens male and Neanderthal female, only male survived, i.e. there are no Neanderthal origins present and each of the "out of Africa" individuals has 1-4% of Neandertal genes that are all different, i.e. in our species there still lives an accumulated 60% of Neanderthal DNA. What is odd about racism is, that there is no pure race and it is more pure in remote areas like Australia and Amazon jungle. Even in India the castes are not according to genes, but all the identities are culturally impregnated. The most mixed seems to be the Germans and the Jews that pretended to be the "purest", but that's more due to narcissism that seems to come from Adam. Maybe there are some more humble genes that we have from the Neanderthals. ;-) The forming of the identities happened after the genetic pools were formed, so basically it's in the language and early childhood cultural impregnation by mothers that has profound effects: http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/FrustAgg/bateson.htm" rel="nofollow - http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/FrustAgg/bateson.htm |
Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 25 July 2018 at 5:29pm
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And of course the "story of Adam and Eve" was not known to them (80.000 years ago) until God didn't reveal it and it became part of the book some 3500 years ago. The revelation is that matter is mud while the value is in the soul (information/consciousness) that gets formed by read!ing and understanding the book. Scientifically it could be quantum information, i.e. a soul gets reborn with it's own book, when it is formed from true consciousness. False consciousness is result of doomed genes. Now that we are born with no consciousness indicates that this life is about the birth of our individual souls.
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Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 25 July 2018 at 6:33pm
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This is very funny (about Adolf Hitler)  https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#famous_people Ronny Decorte, a geneticist from the Catholic University of Leuven in Belgium, tested relatives of Adolf Hitler and determined that the Fürher belonged to haplogroup E1b1b. Ironically this haplogroup thought to be at the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages, which includes the Semitic languages and peoples that Hitler despised so much. |
Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 26 July 2018 at 1:39am
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Genetic science proves and it's also more than obvious that the deluge (until today ;-)) never happened. It's an adaptation of the Mesopotamian "Gilgamesh epic". Even the "tribe" of Adam exists until today and it seems to be the "Mbo" in Cameroon. But then the story of Noah, Sem and Ham needs an interpretation as well as the assumption that Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit and a virgin. There goes another story of the "black virgin". http://gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html" rel="nofollow - http://gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html |
Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 26 July 2018 at 2:04am
| Where there is (deadly) violence, it's more the offspring of Kain and Abel. So we're still pretty close to Adam. ;-) |
Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 26 July 2018 at 3:59am
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I think that "sem ham japhet" is the same like "kain abel seth", i.e. the "deluge" is yet to come and from there on we will be free from sin and know^^ that we are neither sons of Adam nor Noah but of God. |
Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 26 July 2018 at 4:53am
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Here I found something about "Seth" who might be considered the peaceful/neutral one. There was a Gnostic branch giving him a special importance and they saw Jesus as a reincarnation of Seth in his peaceful ways and not being bound by loyalty towards his tribe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sethianism" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sethianism Jesus certainly was a heretic in his time and a victim of the Pharisees, but the truth/God can never be suppressed, i.e. the Holy Spirit is the truth and those that have contributed to it and became martyrs, i.e. immortal souls.
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Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 29 July 2018 at 2:45pm
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@Israel was Muslim Actually I think I've never seen so much concentrated incoherence in a few lines only.
What makes you say so ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad to hear that 'believing' is now sold as science. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, so what do we conclude from this ? Could it be that your book got it wrong ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Mahmed
Date Posted: 30 July 2018 at 11:03am
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As Salaam Alakom Brothers and Sisters, A fun discussion that make readers think. Thank you all that gave Quran, Torah and Gospel verses that help people see what scripture says. Muslim are not for or against the ideah of evolution; things do change over time. But that does not make the current evolution theory correct. Muslims know that Allah created the world and gave man the ability to learn about the world and find truth. If research is true and provable Muslims are not against it but reserve judgement and ultimate truth with Allah and the divine guidance sent in the Quran. Scientific ideas are proven wrong and many times Man and Wombman, religious and not religious, believe the scientific idea as if it is a divine fact because it is science. When it is proven wrong, Science just argues, 'it was a theory'. Policies and laws were written and lives affected by those theories but, Science is never criticisms with the same doubt as religion. Statement: But science has room for doubt and religion is supposed to be from a real God Answer: In the Quran Islam is said to either be true of not. And the Qur'an challenge Man, WomMan to find another religion better than Islam. In Islam/The Qur'an, the study of creation, 'Science' is a way to increase faith, accept a divine creator and prove faith true. There are many ways to search for Allah. Man, WombMan have a natural curiosity to know things and from that knowledge interact with the world and live better. Science is one of the many names for the study of things. Man and WombMan is all societies have found that in nature there is a naturally occurring ability to measure and observe the same patterns. Only Man, WombMan can use their mind to fully study the world. The Quran and Islam would say it is a sign from Allah to guide all people to truth and faith. The proof found in nature are sign people can use to get closer to understanding the truth about how Allah created the world and creation not evidence against it. If a prokaryotic cell ingested a bacteria that became the mitochondria, Allah say Allah is the originator of all creation and the starter of all things and processes. The earth is said created in all holy scripture. What about the layers and how they move to keep the earth a living moving planet. The Quran say the He(Allah) created seven heavens and of the Earth a similar number. The verse when studied is talking about seven heavens outer space being the lowest, seven ferments(heavens/layers of the atmosphere) and in reflection seven layers of the sea/ocean and seven layers to the earth. Allah know the truth if their are seven literal Earths like the seven heavens. In science it is found Iron is not from earth and the Qur'an says Allah sends down Iron. And other verses can show other thing ares sent down from outer space. About the other Mankinds, Very good explanations and verses. The Quran agree with the other divine Book; if and when true. The Quran is written as the final scripture to all creation including, all Man and WombMan and the Jinn. And is written to make it important all Man and WombMan accept their lineage to Adam and Hawa(Eve) (alayhis salaam) and not allow other ideas of lineages to false guide people to separatism, racism and bias. If people believe the idea of admixture, science says people only have a little admixture and are mostly all the same. The Quran say Allah gave nations of Man(from Adam) abilities. When the verses are studied people wonder if they mixed with the Jinn or other. The Jinn is made of fire free of smoke and all evidence show they are a spirit being. (Allah knows the truth). In the Qur'an some verses do say Man was made from water, clay, Mud dried earth, dust. All these materials are what Adam(a.s. was made. But the way the verse read sound like it is talking about different Mankinds. The Quran says Allah can replace replace Man with other Man and beings. And say if mightier nations existed before the present Man. The verse appear to speak immediately about modern Man but can be read to mean before Man in general. The Torah and Gospels talk about other Mankind that could have existed. Muslims accept both Holy Scriptures as true, are careful because of changes and added false information. If true as the Brother and Sisters said the nations were lost in the flood or died out soon after. In the Qur'an the flood appear to be directed at all Man from Adam and Hawa(a.s.), meaning the regions where they lived on Earth. direct flooding of the entire world is not completely described. But most or the whole Earth would have experienced the negative effects of the flood. Genetics- Muslims and Believers of other faith should talk about know the truth and having clear ways of speaking about science. The word gene is said from Latin and mean room. Latin is directly similar to Syric(Afro Asiatic) languages and words are similar. Gene is similar to Jinn and mean hidden/inside. Gene has a connection to the word sijjin and Illiyan that literilly mean a written record. It is inside of all Man, WombMan, and on the day of judgement will be brought out to be read. A written record appear exactly like the genetic code that is believed to hold and store memory. From All Holy scripture, the Ark land in the general region mentioned(Allah knows the truth). the Quran say our languages and colors are a sign, when studied show how people became those appearance(colors). All people (appearances and colors) descend directly from Adam and Hawa(a.s.) All are 99% genetically similar and all descend from one lineage that branches out like a tree creating all existing lineages. Differences are from marrying in mostly among some groups, naturally concentrating particular appearances. The little amount of lineage from other other Mankinds, if true, is more indirectly in the lineage of Man on earth some more than others(still little). After the flood Man again was one nation but when they separated the Quran speak of nations of giants correcting the Torah and Bible that speak of other origins of giants. There could be speaking about different times. But the Quran is clear Angels did not mate with the Daughters of Man. The great power, height, success and wealth that some nations gained the Quran say was from Allah. They are still called Bani Adam(a.s.), and their Prophets told them to remember their lineage to Adam and Noah(a.s.) Genetic lineages I and J are not exclusively Semitic and were absorbed back into the Middle East sever times in the ancient past. With respect to group that have a ancestral presence in the Middle East, some recorded in holy scripture, almost all Genetic lineages can be found in the middle east and all others can be said related(younger lineages to older). As the holy land that is beautiful and mean all people can share it as a pure, Not corrupted and Not dominated natural land.
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Posted By: ZAHRA1234
Date Posted: 25 September 2018 at 1:33am
| thanks for sharing lovely one |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 14 October 2018 at 2:08am
Wrong. All of science is constantly subject to attack in the form of all of its' ideas being tested constantly. If you can find a situation where a theory (the most strongly tested and passed any idea can have as a status) then there are professorships in it. Go fo it!
What happens when the natural world gives a result that says that the poetry of the Koran has it wrong?
In ancient times the first iron found were meteorites which can have a very high iron content. Before humanity had the ability to melt iron out of iron ore this was the only way to get iron. The legend was thus created that all iron came from the sky. In that all of earth has formed out of space dust at the formation of the solar system then yes... but that is 4.5 billion years ago.
There has never been a world flood. No evidence of Jinn. Not sure what the rest is on about.
OK, if you want to believe any of that. |