Print Page | Close Window

Quran

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41599
Printed Date: 23 February 2019 at 7:27am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Quran
Posted By: zackshenouda
Subject: Quran
Date Posted: 02 December 2017 at 3:10pm
This imam claims that the Quran is uncreated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8U9yT7ETE8

In Christianity, "uncreated" is a divine property & this is attributed to the creator.

If the Quran is uncreated, than what differentiates the divinity of the Quran from the divinity of God? Is the Quran God? or is the Quran a quality of God?



Replies:
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:06am
Quran is the word of Allah.Allah is one he is eternal he is neither born nor give birth there is nothing like him


Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 15 December 2017 at 4:25am
[QUOTE=NABA] Quran is the word of Allah.Allah is one he is eternal he is neither born nor give birth there is nothing like him[/QUOTE
Muhammad only created a new sect in sixth century which he blended it with jewis,christian and pagan religion and called the Quran a so called revelation of Allah and changed the promise of God into a lie.


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 28 December 2017 at 4:41pm

Hi Peace Maker,

Can you prove that Muhammad changed God's promise into a lie?

It is precisely the books of the previous apostles that many were changed by their own monks, so Allah sent the Qur'an to Muhammad to give the news to all men that god is one and worship only to Him (Allah).

Anyone will not be able to make like the Qur'an, including the Prophet Muhammad, the Qur'an is truly coming from Allah through the angel of Gabriel. Many of them are studying the Qur'an and they finally confirm that it really comes from God.

Example: in the Qur'an, the word "angel" is written 88 times, and the opponent of the angel is "devil" is written 88 times, the word of "prostration" is written 34 times, and the number of prostrations in the obligatory prayer 5 times a day and a night, there are 34 times as well... and many more.

Regards,

Asep Garut



Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 31 December 2017 at 12:17pm
@asep
Quote Example: in the Qur'an, the word "angel" is written 88 times, and the opponent of the angel is "devil" is written 88 times


Funny miracles you have:
   
Counting the word "angel" (singular) using http://corpus.quran.com/ - Corpus Quran I get 10 entries.   Searchíng for "angels" (plural) I get 81 entries.

Using "devil" I get 4 entries whereas there are 15 for "devils".

May be Allah doesn't know how to count or "does he as he pleases" in this case ?
Having said so, it is perfectly in line with the other Quranic "miracles" I got confronted so far.
I didn't even bother to check your other claim.


Airmano

-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 03 January 2018 at 6:30pm

Dear Airmano,

Maybe the way you count is a bit different from me, the method I use not only calculate the original word "malaikah", but using the science of tools, which is a science commonly called "nahu-sharaf" it is a tool to uncover each word in the Qur'an.

Some Muslim scientists also vary a lot in calculating it, but that's the calculation from me, and even there are still some other miracles that I find.




Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 04 January 2018 at 12:48pm
Asep Garut: Do you know where can I find more information in English on the nahu-sharaf hermeneutic?

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 04 January 2018 at 3:52pm

Dear DavidC,

In my country, such the lesson usually exists in a "Pesantren" which is special school to learn and deepen the knowledge about Islam, including "nahu-sharaf". I got such lesson for about 5 years in Pesantren.

I think in your country there is no school like "Pesantren", but I'll try to look for the book like that, because when I was in school, it's hard to find in stores except in Pesantren. Hopefully in today I can find it easily.

As information, nahu-sharaf have similarities with the grammar, but the difference is nahu-sharaf more emphasis the meaning on syllables in the sentence.




Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:21pm
The Quran was not from Angel Gabriel cause Muhammad didn't even know it was Gabriel angels do not give there names in the first place his wife and his cousin made him belief that he perhaps have seen Gabreal,Why not Micheal or Rapheal and Oreal?
His cousin Waraqah was familiar with jewis and christian scriptures and convinced Muhammad that his so called revelation was from God and he said that Allah send Gabriel the same as Moses but in fact God spoken to Moses personally!the same as Jesus! thank you

Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (Joh 14:6)
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Act 4:12)

To say that all faiths leads to the same god is a false statement that many people make for different religions worship different gods.


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 2:46pm
Thank you, Asep. I am always interested in methods of reading with a deeper understanding.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 11:38am
@Asep
Quote Maybe the way you count is a bit different from me, the method I use not only calculate the original word "malaikah", but using the science of tools, which is a science commonly called "nahu-sharaf" it is a tool to uncover each word in the Qur'an.

Some Muslim scientists also vary a lot in calculating it, but that's the calculation from me, and even there are still some other miracles that I find.


This means that there are many ways to count the word "angel" and they all come to a different result.
Could it be that you adapted your way of counting such that it just matches the expected result ?

Since there are much less than your mentioned 88 "devils" in the Corpus Quran search, can I ask you to give me two or three examples where your translation(s) yield "devil" but not the http://corpus.quran.com/ - Corpus Quran ? .
I'd like to see the (different) meaning(s) of the word "devil" they give in Corpus Quran.


Thanks: Hermann

-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 7:00pm

Peace Maker,

It is true that the Quran is not from Gabriel but from Allah conveyed through Gabriel. All human beings have different understanding in religion, but in the understanding of the people of Islam that the Prophet Muhammad is the successor of the monotheistic teachings (Tawheed) of the previous Apostles that there is no God who is to be worshiped besides Allah. That is the understanding for Muslims.

"Truly, this monotheistic religion (Tawheed) is your religion, the one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me" (Al Anbiya 21:92)

“Say (O Muhammad), He is Allah, (the) One. Allah the self-sufficient master, whom all creatures need, He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.” (Al Ikhlas 112:1-4)

That is the understanding for Muslims.

Asep Garut



Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Thank you, Asep. I am always interested in methods of reading with a deeper understanding.

David C,

I am still trying to get the nahu-sharaf in English, or maybe you can meet a Muslim scholar in your Country who can give you the book that has been translated into English. But I still will try to get it.

Thank you David for your desire in searching the meaning of reading the Qur'an more deeply.

Asep Garut



Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Asep
[Quote]
This means that there are many ways to count the word "angel" and they all come to a different result.
Could it be that you adapted your way of counting such that it just matches the expected result ?

Since there are much less than your mentioned 88 "devils" in the Corpus Quran search, can I ask you to give me two or three examples where your translation(s) yield "devil" but not the http://corpus.quran.com/ - Corpus Quran ? .
I'd like to see the (different) meaning(s) of the word "devil" they give in Corpus Quran.

Thanks: Hermann


Airmano,

I did not count it to match what I expected, for example:

“Inna(hu) lakum ‘aduwwum mubina”

The word (hu) has many meanings, but in that sentence it means devil, because it follows the meaning of the previous sentence. quite frankly, if I explain in detail in this forum it will take a long time and have to open the quran together in order to explain it, from where does the word come from ?, what is the relation of such word with the word or sentence before and after it, etc.

Asep Garut





Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 2:15pm
@Asep,

Well, looking up your sentence "“Inna(hu) lakum ‘aduwwum mubina” I guess that this is from Q 2/168 (Al Baqarah).

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=168 - Corpus Quran finds correctly Satan in this verse (168).

The word you refer to: "Innahu" seems to mean "indeed he". The critical word is the one in front which is correctly translated as Satan. The "he" in the english translation of "indeed he" refers obviously to Satan.
So no need for any deeper analysis or knowledge of the Quran to conclude that this sentence does indeed contain "Satan" (one time).

Could it be that -in your logic- you count the word "Satan" twice in this sentence (1 "Satan" + 1 "he") ?

Looking for "الشَّيْطَانُ" (shaitan) in corpus quran yields 68 (primary) entries (so no "he's" counted), again far from the 88 you claim.

So for the moment I am still not impressed by this "miracle"


Airmano


-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Thank you, Asep. I am always interested in methods of reading with a deeper understanding.

David C,

Before I found Nahwu-Sharaf Book in English translation, for a while I would like to give you a few examples of Nahwu-Sharaf that I made myself, hopefully you will gain a little understanding.

Understanding:

Nahwu is a science that studies about the position of words in sentences and harakat (sign) at the end of syllable or sentence, either that has changed (i'rab) or still in a state of permanence (bina). The rules by which the laws of the end of Arabic words are found in the compiled state.

 

It is also a science that shows us how to combine nouns (ismun), verbs (fi'lun), or letters (harfun) to form useful sentences (number of mufidah) also to know the state (i'rab) the last letter of a word. Or in another sense that Nahwu is the Arabic rules of knowing the form of words and circumstances when it is still a word (Mufrod) or when it is composed (Murokkab). Included in the discussion of Sharaf, because Sharaf is part of Nahwu science, which emphasizes the discussion of the form of the word and its condition when it's still a word (mufrod).

Aim:

The purpose of studying the science of nahwu is to keep an error speech in pronunciation of Arabic pronunciation and to understand the Qur'an and the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad with correct understanding.

Example:

 جَاءَ رَجُلٌ  : A man has come

The word  رَجُلٌ   is marked (harokat) dhommatain (ٌ ) at the end of the syllable because of its position as subject.

 رَأَيْتُ رَجُلًا : I see a man

The word  رَجُلً   is marked (harokat) fathatain (ً  ) at the end of the syllable because of its position as an object.

 

مَرَرْتُ بِرَجُلٍ : I met a man

The word رَجُلٍ is marked (harokat) kasrotain (ً  ) at the end of the syllable because it is preceded by the letter ب

Sharaf is the science of rules to know the formation and change of a word due to addition or subtraction, for example:

  عَلِمَ يَعْلَمُ عِلْمًا عَالِمٌ مَعْلُوْمٌ اَعْلَمْ لَا تَعْلَمْ مَعْلَمٌ مِعْلَامٌ

For those who master such knowledge he will usually know how special the Qur'an is, because the grammar used in the Qur'an is not all the same as in daily Arabic conversation.

Asep Garut



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 12 January 2018 at 9:18am
Very interesting, Asep. I do not read Arabic, but this has some similarities to linguistic features in Hebrew. Greek is easier, but still requires great care in translation. Even first year students are often amazed at the meaning unlocked when theybstart to read in the original languages.

One thing about Christian scriptures is they must often be read aloud for the full meaning to come through. Partially this is because our Greek scriptures in particular have no sentences or punctuation so meaning can vary with whatever emphasis is provided by the reader.

There is also the idea of reading aloud as giving form to thought. What are your reflections on this regarding Qúran? Considering the way the Qúran was revealed, I expect this to be more important in Islam but I have never heard a Muslim speak of it.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 15 January 2018 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

There is also the idea of reading aloud as giving form to thought. What are your reflections on this regarding Qúran? Considering the way the Qúran was revealed, I expect this to be more important in Islam but I have never heard a Muslim speak of it.

DavidC,

My reflection on the Qur'an may be different from other Muslims or it may be the same, but my personal opinion that should be the thought of the Quran is how we understand the verses or what the essence must be obtained so that it can be implemented into the daily actions such as:

1.    Being forgiving person, even if there is someone who hurt our heart, but does not facilitate evil to master let alone destroy us.

2.    Be honest and courageous to tell the truth even though it is difficult and hard to express.

3.    Do good to all human beings without distinguish tribe, nation, religion, ect except those relating to aqidah and syari'at.

4.    Keeping the faith, it means to worship Allah according to His command, and to follow the worship ways of the Prophet Muhammad.

5.    Humble to anyone but not forgetting self-esteem.

6.    Obligatory preaching religion, but must be in a good and wise way.

7.    Can claim personal rights, but not interfere with the rights of others, ect.

Then, the voice in reciting the Quran sometimes must be heard by environment but it is not necessarily too loud, but quite heard by the surrounding environment, such as the time call to shalah (prayer) mandatory 5 times, the voice of the prayer imam, ect, because besides as a sign of time to worship Allah, also as a syi'ar or da'wah.

Then, reading the Quran which is often held in the mosques with hardened voice, it depends on the situation and condition, do not let it disturb the rights and peace of others around us, except in certain events that have previously been informed to the community, so not every voice in reading the Quran should be hardened.

In addition, Allah says that the Qur'an is revealed to all human beings who wish to obtain His mercy and compassion for both in the world and the Hereafter, and the Qur'an is revealed not only for the middle east people, western or eastern, but to anyone who believes to Allah and the Prophet Muhammad, and to keep His commandments, he will gain good fortune from Allah.

Asep Garut.



Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 19 January 2018 at 1:16am
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

... There is also the idea of reading aloud as giving form to thought. What are your reflections on this regarding Qúran? Considering the way the Qúran was revealed, I expect this to be more important in Islam but I have never heard a Muslim speak of it.


Hi David,
I don't know if this is relevant to this discussion, but I think that the best way to read the Qur'an is how we were shown how to read it in the Qur'an itself:

[73:4] ...Or a little more; and recite the Qur-an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.




Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 19 January 2018 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:




That Allah has no son is further proof that He is not the God of the Bible, who definitely has a Son, as both the Old and New Testaments declare. Psalms 2 says, "Kiss the Son." Referring to the God of the Bible, Solomon says, "What is his son's name...?" (Proverbs 30:4). The angel Gabriel, whom Islam claims to honor, told the virgin Mary (Islam accepts the virgin birth of Jesus), " And, behold, thou shalt...bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be...called the Son of the Highest ...the Son of God...and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David..." (Luke 1:31-35). That throne is in Jerusalem, not in Mecca.

Long Long very long before Muhammad's time.

Allah had three others who were Allah's daughters, al-Uzza, al-Lat, and Manah
Thus was Allah the pagans worshipped at the Kabaa with his three daughters quiet a monotheistic religion.

What was also so ironic was that Muhammad's grandpa's name was Abd allah which means slave of Allah strange.




Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 21 January 2018 at 9:13am
@Asep

May be it slipped off your radar screen...

Can you try to take position to http://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41599&PID=214232#214232 - my comment on page 2 of this thread ?


Thanx: Airmano

-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 25 January 2018 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Asep,

Well, looking up your sentence "“Inna(hu) lakum ‘aduwwum mubina” I guess that this is from Q 2/168 (Al Baqarah).

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=168 - Corpus Quran finds correctly Satan in this verse (168).

The word you refer to: "Innahu" seems to mean "indeed he". The critical word is the one in front which is correctly translated as Satan. The "he" in the english translation of "indeed he" refers obviously to Satan.
So no need for any deeper analysis or knowledge of the Quran to conclude that this sentence does indeed contain "Satan" (one time).

Could it be that -in your logic- you count the word "Satan" twice in this sentence (1 "Satan" + 1 "he") ?

Looking for "الشَّيْطَانُ" (shaitan) in corpus quran yields 68 (primary) entries (so no "he's" counted), again far from the 88 you claim.

So for the moment I am still not impressed by this "miracle"


Airmano

Airmano,

In deciphering the word devil doesn't mean to be written exactly like "devil" or "الشيطان" but in the implicit sense too, that's what I use. not only you, many Islamic scientists who deepen it, but the result is not necessarily the same.

You said: “Could it be that -in your logic- you count the word "Satan" twice in this sentence (1 "Satan" + 1 "he") ?”

Yes, one of them is like that.

The following is the word of Allah that backgrounds me in calculating:

“And indeed We have set forth for mankind, in this Qur’an every kind of parable. But if you (O Muhammad) bring to them any sign or proof (as an evidence for the truth of your Prophethood), the disbelievers are sure to say: ‘You follow nothing but falsehood, and magic.” (30:58)

And my second attempt is to pray in every last prostration when praying tahajjud:

 “Ya Allah, Ya ‘Alimu, a’limna ma la na’lam. Ameen”

(O Allah, the Most Knowing, give me knowledge of what I don't know. ameen.)

And with the permission of Allah, it will open my eyesight, both my eyes and my spiritual eyes.

That's the keys I use.




Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 25 January 2018 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Peace maker Peace maker wrote:

Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:




That Allah has no son is further proof that He is not the God of the Bible, who definitely has a Son, as both the Old and New Testaments declare. Psalms 2 says, "Kiss the Son." Referring to the God of the Bible, Solomon says, "What is his son's name...?" (Proverbs 30:4). The angel Gabriel, whom Islam claims to honor, told the virgin Mary (Islam accepts the virgin birth of Jesus), " And, behold, thou shalt...bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be...called the Son of the Highest ...the Son of God...and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David..." (Luke 1:31-35). That throne is in Jerusalem, not in Mecca.

Long Long very long before Muhammad's time.

Allah had three others who were Allah's daughters, al-Uzza, al-Lat, and Manah
Thus was Allah the pagans worshipped at the Kabaa with his three daughters quiet a monotheistic religion.

What was also so ironic was that Muhammad's grandpa's name was Abd allah which means slave of Allah strange.



Peace maker,

If you believe that God has a son, and believes in both the Old and New Testaments declare, that's your belief, and that's your choice, but for Muslims is different, God is one, as the word of Allah in Qur'an 112: 1-4, another verse is the Qur'an 21:92.

In Islam, al-Uzza, al-Lat, and Manah are good people, but because of the human beings natures that tends to adore someone with exaggeration, then when they die it is considered the children of God.

In the teachings of Islam, if God has children then chances are also will have grandchildren and so on.

Then about the throne in Jerusalem, it is true because there is the throne of the Prophet David and Prophet Solomon, perhaps here should be able to distinguish between the throne (identical with wealth) with the grace and protection of God.

Ka'ba is not actually an idols worshiped by Muslims, but a place to unite the direction of Muslims when praying.

Indeed in Mecca and Medina there is no throne like the relics of Prophet David and Prophet Solomon, but Mecca and Medina are two places which is blessed and protected by Allah including from the onslaught of dajjal and his troops, while Jerusalem and all other places in this world will be trampled by dajjal.




Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 31 January 2018 at 7:33am
Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:


Originally posted by Peace maker Peace maker wrote:

Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:




That Allah has no son is further proof that He is not the God of the Bible, who definitely has a Son, as both the Old and New Testaments declare. Psalms 2 says, "Kiss the Son." Referring to the God of the Bible, Solomon says, "What is his son's name...?" (Proverbs 30:4). The angel Gabriel, whom Islam claims to honor, told the virgin Mary (Islam accepts the virgin birth of Jesus), " And, behold, thou shalt...bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be...called the Son of the Highest ...the Son of God...and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David..." (Luke 1:31-35). That throne is in Jerusalem, not in Mecca.

Long Long very long before Muhammad's time.

Allah had three others who were Allah's daughters, al-Uzza, al-Lat, and Manah
Thus was Allah the pagans worshipped at the Kabaa with his three daughters quiet a monotheistic religion.

What was also so ironic was that Muhammad's grandpa's name was Abd allah which means slave of Allah strange.



Peace maker,

If you believe that God has a son, and believes in both the Old and New Testaments declare, that's your
belief, and that's your choice, but for Muslims is different, God is one, as
the word of Allah in Qur'an 112: 1-4, another verse is the Qur'an 21:92.

In Islam, al-Uzza, al-Lat, and Manah are good people, but because of the human beings natures that
tends to adore someone with exaggeration, then when they die it is considered the children of God.

In the teachings of Islam, if God has children then chances are also will have grandchildren and so
on.

Then about the throne in Jerusalem, it is true because there is the throne of the Prophet David and Prophet Solomon, perhaps here should be able to distinguish between the throne
(identical with wealth) with the grace and protection of God.
Ka'ba is not actually an idols worshiped by Muslims, but a place to unite the direction of Muslims when praying.</span>



Indeed in Mecca and Medina there is no throne like the relics of Prophet David and Prophet
Solomon, but Mecca and Medina are two places which is blessed and protected by
Allah including from the onslaught of dajjal and his troops, while Jerusalem and
all other places in this world will be trampled by dajjal



In Islam, al-Uzza,al-Lat, and Manah are good people, but because of the human beings natures that tends to adore someone with exaggeration, then when they die it is considered the children of God.

You say good people in fact historical evidence declared that they were daughters of Allah three imaginary idols sand stone soulless idols and you said they are good people.
Allah will not protected you from the onslaught dajjal cause that was a fairy tale story which muslims solemely accepted as a revelation of Allah so there will not be any dajjal like the so called Mahdi the muslim Messiah which is a myth.


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 02 February 2018 at 10:08am

Peace maker,

As we know that in this world, many human beings have different opinion about their God, but for Muslims, God is only one and has no children as in His word.

You are saying: "Allah will not protected you from the onslaught dajjal cause that was a fairy tale story which muslims solemely accepted as a revelation of Allah the Mahdi the muslim Messiah which is a myth."

It doesn't matter if you think that the dajjal's attack is a fairy tale of Muslims or anything you want to say, but I am more confident in the word of Allah and Prophet Muhammad than any other statements.

Thanks to Allah that I've been given the knowledge to see that in the future there will be several wars, and among these wars there will be two great wars.




Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 04 February 2018 at 2:44am
Quote Airmano:
“Could it be that -in your logic- you count the word "Satan" twice in this sentence (1 "Satan" + 1 "he") ?”

Asep:
Yes, one of them is like that.

It is a bit what I feared. In my eyes you adapt what you count (and what you don't count) to make the result such that you arrive exactly at the same occurence for "Satan" in the Quran as there are "angels" (88 times according to you).

Calling this a miracle is, well... try to give it a name yourself. I can't help it, it is unfortunately fully in line with all the other "quranic miracles" I have seen so far (Iron being send down, embryology, mountains as pegs, the Big Bang and so on) .

Ah, and why 88 ? Would you have any idea why it should be 88 and not 77 or 96 ?



Airmano

-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 08 February 2018 at 5:49am
Assep Garut this is what Prophet Muhammad said and you mustn't question cause it was the truth.


In a Hadith narrated by Fatima bint Qays, Prophet Muhammad once gathered the Muslims in the mosque after prayer and told them a story about the Dajjal being chained in a remote Island in the East. In our opinion, if this Hadith is authentic, the Dajjal in this story could be the last Dajjal.

Prophet Muhammad said:

"I have kept you here because Tamim Ad-Dari, a Christian man who has embraced Islam, told me something which agrees with what I have told you about the Dajjal. He told me that he had sailed in a ship with thirty men from Banu Lakham and Banu Juzam. The sea waves rocked them about for a month, and finally drew them toward an island around sunset time. They approached the island and landed. They were met by a beast that was so hairy that they could not tell its front from its back. They said: 'Woe to you! Who are you?' It said: 'I am Al-Jassasah.' They said: 'What is Al-Jassasah?' It said: 'O people, go to the man in the monastery, for he is very eager to know about you.’ Tamim said that when it named a person to us we left quickly fearing that it might be a devil.
Tamim Dari said we quickly went to the monastery. There, we found a huge man whom we had never seen before. His hands were tied up to his neck and his legs tied up with with iron shackles. We said: 'Woe to you, who are you?' He said: 'You will soon know about me. Tell me who you are.'
We said: 'We are people from Arabia. We sailed on a ship, but the waves have been tossing us around about for a month, and they brought us to your island, where we met a very hairy beast. It said: 'I am Al-Jassasah.' We asked: 'What is Al-Jassasah?' and it told us: 'Go to the man in the monastery, for he is very eager to know about you.' So we came to you quickly.

The Dajjal And His Mule.

Muslim Scholar Muhammad Ali ibn Zubair Ali says of the Dajjal, “ He will travel at great speeds and his means of conveyance will be a giant mule… He will travel the entire world.” 9 As strange as this is, it also bears a faint resemblance to Jesus the Messiah who also rode a donkey as he entered Jerusalem during the final week of his ministry
Ubadah ibn Saamit radiyallahu anhu narrates that the Last Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) said, ‘I have explained Dajjal to you, but I fear that you might not have understood. Maseeh-ud-Dajjal will be short and his legs will be crooked. The hair on his head will be extremely twisted. He will have one eye, while his other eye will be flat. It will be neither deep, nor protruding.’
Ibn Umar radiyallahu anhuma narrates from the Last Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) regarding Dajjal, ‘…red complexioned, fat, curly haired man, blind in the right eye which looks like a bulging grape.’ (Bukhari)
According to the many Ahaadith describing Dajjal, the most distinguishing feature of his face besides the bulging eye will be the Arabic letters Kaaf (k), Faa (f), Raa (r), on his forehead. These letters spell Kufr (disbelief). All believers, regardless of their literacy will decipher these letters.
It has also been ascertained from the Hadith that he will emerge from between Syria and Iraq, and his emergence will become known when he is in Isfahaan, at a place called Judea. He will be of Jewish origin and the Jews of Isfahaan will be his main followers and they will refer to him as the Messiah. As he goes on through the world, Jews and a great number of non-Jewish women will flock to him upon witnessing his false miracles


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 11 February 2018 at 12:19am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Quote Airmano:
“Could it be that -in your logic- you count the word "Satan" twice in this sentence (1 "Satan" + 1 "he") ?”

Asep:
Yes, one of them is like that.

It is a bit what I feared. In my eyes you adapt what you count (and what you don't count) to make the result such that you arrive exactly at the same occurence for "Satan" in the Quran as there are "angels" (88 times according to you).

Calling this a miracle is, well... try to give it a name yourself. I can't help it, it is unfortunately fully in line with all the other "quranic miracles" I have seen so far (Iron being send down, embryology, mountains as pegs, the Big Bang and so on) .

Ah, and why 88 ? Would you have any idea why it should be 88 and not 77 or 96 ?



Airmano

Airmano,

Many Moslem scholars differ on this issue, much less you.

Opinions about the miracle of the Qur'an in various countries there will be differences, including the Moslem community in my own country a lot of differences. But there is far more important that is how to believe and carry out all the commands of their Lord.



Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 11 February 2018 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Peace maker Peace maker wrote:

Assep Garut this is what Prophet Muhammad said and you mustn't question cause it was the truth.


In a Hadith narrated by Fatima bint Qays, Prophet Muhammad once gathered the Muslims in the mosque after prayer and told them a story about the Dajjal being chained in a remote Island in the East. In our opinion, if this Hadith is authentic, the Dajjal in this story could be the last Dajjal.

Prophet Muhammad said:

"I have kept you here because Tamim Ad-Dari, a Christian man who has embraced Islam, told me something which agrees with what I have told you about the Dajjal. He told me that he had sailed in a ship with thirty men from Banu Lakham and Banu Juzam. The sea waves rocked them about for a month, and finally drew them toward an island around sunset time. They approached the island and landed. They were met by a beast that was so hairy that they could not tell its front from its back. They said: 'Woe to you! Who are you?' It said: 'I am Al-Jassasah.' They said: 'What is Al-Jassasah?' It said: 'O people, go to the man in the monastery, for he is very eager to know about you.’ Tamim said that when it named a person to us we left quickly fearing that it might be a devil.
Tamim Dari said we quickly went to the monastery. There, we found a huge man whom we had never seen before. His hands were tied up to his neck and his legs tied up with with iron shackles. We said: 'Woe to you, who are you?' He said: 'You will soon know about me. Tell me who you are.'
We said: 'We are people from Arabia. We sailed on a ship, but the waves have been tossing us around about for a month, and they brought us to your island, where we met a very hairy beast. It said: 'I am Al-Jassasah.' We asked: 'What is Al-Jassasah?' and it told us: 'Go to the man in the monastery, for he is very eager to know about you.' So we came to you quickly.

The Dajjal And His Mule.

Muslim Scholar Muhammad Ali ibn Zubair Ali says of the Dajjal, “ He will travel at great speeds and his means of conveyance will be a giant mule… He will travel the entire world.” 9 As strange as this is, it also bears a faint resemblance to Jesus the Messiah who also rode a donkey as he entered Jerusalem during the final week of his ministry
Ubadah ibn Saamit radiyallahu anhu narrates that the Last Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) said, ‘I have explained Dajjal to you, but I fear that you might not have understood. Maseeh-ud-Dajjal will be short and his legs will be crooked. The hair on his head will be extremely twisted. He will have one eye, while his other eye will be flat. It will be neither deep, nor protruding.’
Ibn Umar radiyallahu anhuma narrates from the Last Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) regarding Dajjal, ‘…red complexioned, fat, curly haired man, blind in the right eye which looks like a bulging grape.’ (Bukhari)
According to the many Ahaadith describing Dajjal, the most distinguishing feature of his face besides the bulging eye will be the Arabic letters Kaaf (k), Faa (f), Raa (r), on his forehead. These letters spell Kufr (disbelief). All believers, regardless of their literacy will decipher these letters.
It has also been ascertained from the Hadith that he will emerge from between Syria and Iraq, and his emergence will become known when he is in Isfahaan, at a place called Judea. He will be of Jewish origin and the Jews of Isfahaan will be his main followers and they will refer to him as the Messiah. As he goes on through the world, Jews and a great number of non-Jewish women will flock to him upon witnessing his false miracles

Peace maker,

The hadiths that you bring up are all in accordance with my belief, because in my opinion those are saheeh hadiths.



Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 11 February 2018 at 6:19am
Asep

So you truely believe in the Hadiths.

Your concept of believe is based on a religious factor not what you believe in but how many people believe with you in the same thing.

So if the whole world of people say drugs is the right thing to do then its right like voting for a president, and one guy say its wrong than He is wrong! majority rules!


Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 11 February 2018 at 11:39am
@Asep, Peacemaker

I'm always surprised about the confidence Muslims put into the Hadiths. For an outsider they look like the magician who pulls the (white) rabbit out of his hat in case of need.
That there is no "canonisation" or separation of good and bad Hadith's speaks already for itself. Where things get however somewhat ridiculous is when Christians get accused of "forging the bible" whereas the Hadiths are 'venerated' despite the fact that they have been compiled decennies if not centuries after Muhammad's death. Needless to say that the glorification procedure around the prophet had all the necessary time in the world to unfold in order to produce what we call the Hadiths nowadays.

It is highly enlightening to read other historical texts about other ancient kings and prophets to understand that the contemporary and post mortem comments of the respective supporters should be read with a Kilo of salt.    


Airmano

-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by Peace maker Peace maker wrote:

Asep

So you truely believe in the Hadiths.

Your concept of believe is based on a religious factor not what you believe in but how many people believe with you in the same thing.

So if the whole world of people say drugs is the right thing to do then its right like voting for a president, and one guy say its wrong than He is wrong! majority rules!

Peace maker,

Firstly, you have to see what the context is, if we talk about drugs then it will be very contrary, let alone with the teachings of Islam, with the government would be also prohibited.

Please keep in mind that the Qur'an and hadith are different, one of the differences is the content of the Qur'an are all coming from Allah (all Muslims must obey), and not all the hadiths must be believed because in the hadiths there are saheeh (healthy) hadiths and some maudhu (false) hadiths. Therefore, we must be good at addressing a hadith.



Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 14 February 2018 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Asep, Peacemaker

I'm always surprised about the confidence Muslims put into the Hadiths. For an outsider they look like the magician who pulls the (white) rabbit out of his hat in case of need.
That there is no "canonisation" or separation of good and bad Hadith's speaks already for itself. Where things get however somewhat ridiculous is when Christians get accused of "forging the bible" whereas the Hadiths are 'venerated' despite the fact that they have been compiled decennies if not centuries after Muhammad's death. Needless to say that the glorification procedure around the prophet had all the necessary time in the world to unfold in order to produce what we call the Hadiths nowadays.

It is highly enlightening to read other historical texts about other ancient kings and prophets to understand that the contemporary and post mortem comments of the respective supporters should be read with a Kilo of salt.    


Airmano

Airmano,

Not all Muslims behave as you said, for example myself, When I read a hadith, I have to search first about the truth of that hadith, because I will only accept and follow the shahih (healthy) hadith, and I believe that not all hadiths come from the Prophet Muhammad.



Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 2:14am
Quote Asep
Not all Muslims behave as you said, for example myself, When I read a hadith, I have to search first about the truth of that hadith, because I will only accept and follow the shahih (healthy) hadith, and I believe that not all hadiths come from the Prophet Muhammad.


The problem with this is that people will "choose whatever they like" from the Hadith collection. Or, to be more precise, declare "as being 'true' [only] what, quite literally, suits their book"

For people outside Islam this is often -and in my eyes rightly so- perceived as a shell game.
In this context it also fits that there have been no serious attempts in the Muslim world to "canonize" the Hadiths and to separate "the good from the bad ones", simply because it would take a major degree of freedom away.

The prize is however a severe loss of credibility since "a truth" that can be altered at wish can't be "the truth" anymore.



Airmano


-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: momo25
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 11:03am
hello i'm a new member here. can i ask all of you... how can all of you be so brave to even think about Dajjal? can you share how to do it?.

honestly, everytime i remember dajjal i got terrified. these feelings really make me unstable and just want to give up my life. suicide often come to my mind because i really am scared.

can anyone please help me? soon i will have to do exam for my graduation from high school and because of these feelings i can't even focus in anything. 

i really don't know what to do.. please help meCryCryCry


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Quote Asep
Not all Muslims behave as you said, for example myself, When I read a hadith, I have to search first about the truth of that hadith, because I will only accept and follow the shahih (healthy) hadith, and I believe that not all hadiths come from the Prophet Muhammad.


The problem with this is that people will "choose whatever they like" from the Hadith collection. Or, to be more precise, declare "as being 'true' [only] what, quite literally, suits their book"

For people outside Islam this is often -and in my eyes rightly so- perceived as a shell game.
In this context it also fits that there have been no serious attempts in the Muslim world to "canonize" the Hadiths and to separate "the good from the bad ones", simply because it would take a major degree of freedom away.

The prize is however a severe loss of credibility since "a truth" that can be altered at wish can't be "the truth" anymore.



Airmano

Airmano,

If anyone would "choose whatever they like from the Hadith collection", it is his choice, we can not force them to follow us, but all Muslims should follow all what God has commanded and to forsake what His forbids.

In connection with the hadith, it will be different from the Qur'an where the hadith is not all must be accepted because there are the sahih (valid/healthy) hadith and the maudhu (false) hadith, while all of the verses in the Qur'an must be accepted.





Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by momo25 momo25 wrote:

hello i'm a new member here. can i ask all of you... how can all of you be so brave to even think about Dajjal? can you share how to do it?.

honestly, everytime i remember dajjal i got terrified. these feelings really make me unstable and just want to give up my life. suicide often come to my mind because i really am scared.

can anyone please help me? soon i will have to do exam for my graduation from high school and because of these feelings i can't even focus in anything. 

i really don't know what to do.. please help meCryCryCry

Momo25,

Welcome to this forum....

I do not think of dajjal, I just discuss it according to hadith.

You don't need to scare, even to suicide, and please remember that anyone who committed suicide will get the punishment from Allah.

I suggest that you stay focused on your school which is clearly as one that will determine your future, whereas dajjal is not necessarily when it will appear.



Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 28 February 2018 at 1:29am
Originally posted by momo25 momo25 wrote:

hello i'm a new member here. can i ask all of you... how can all of you be so brave to even think about Dajjal? can you share how to do it?.

honestly, everytime i remember dajjal i got terrified. these feelings really make me unstable and just want to give up my life. suicide often come to my mind because i really am scared.

can anyone please help me? soon i will have to do exam for my graduation from high school and because of these feelings i can't even focus in anything. 

i really don't know what to do.. please help meCryCryCry

A true 'genuine' Muslim would not say such things, because a true Muslim is only 'scared' of Allah SWT. Wink










Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 01 March 2018 at 2:50am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

...
That there is no "canonisation" or separation of good and bad Hadith's speaks already for itself...

First: 
You are discrediting the 'huge' work done by hundreds (yes hundreds... and that's just the most well known ones ) of Islamic scholars throughout Islamic history in this field. For example: http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Bukhari" rel="nofollow - http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Bukhari  (if the link does not work, just google 'Muhammad_al-Bukhari')

Second: 
We don't call them 'good and bad'. See:  http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/asb7.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/asb7.html

Third: 
Enemies of Islam (Early Atheists, Orientalists...etc) could not 'corrupt' the Qur'an, so they started 'injecting' fake Hadiths into Islamic Sunnah, and this gave rise to a great field in Islam: The Science of Hadith:  http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/hadsciences.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/hadsciences.html

However, what is important to me as a Muslim individual (layman) is this:

Q: Do I worry that there exists some 'fake' Hadiths in my religion?
A: No

Q: Why is that?
A: Because I only surround myself by Authentic Hadiths. i.e. you will only find me referring to Authentic Hadiths. Anyone can come and inject a million new 'fake' Hadiths, but I will not even bother to notice, because I have my 'collection' of Authentic Hadiths, and that's good enough for me, because it should be enough to satisfy 'all' my needs for a lifetime.

Q: But how do I know if the Hadith is Authentic?
A: Because of the excellent work that the scholars have done for me (Jazahumullahu Khairan). So I draw from their experience and refer to their specialist hadith books (Example: Sahih Bukhari), if the Hadith is in there then I'll take it (and accept its classification therein), otherwise I'll cast it aside.

Q: So You're saying that there HAS been canonisation of Hadith?
A: You bet! ... In a huge way

Q: So why is this guy 'airmano' saying that there was no canonisation?
A: Because the 'poor guy' does not know what he is talking about. Smile


Quote ... Where things get however somewhat ridiculous is when Christians get accused of "forging the bible" whereas the Hadiths are 'venerated' ...

Oh dear... another 'misconception' that needs to be corrected...

It is not the same thing... previous religions did it to themselves (i.e. they were corrupted from within the religion, for material gains or otherwise), whereas 'fake' Hadiths were injected by 'outsider' enemies of Islam.








Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 01 March 2018 at 4:31am
Originally posted by momo25 momo25 wrote:

hello i'm a new member here. can i ask all of you... how can all of you be so brave to even think about Dajjal? can you share how to do it?.

honestly, everytime i remember dajjal i got terrified. these feelings really make me unstable and just want to give up my life. suicide often come to my mind because i really am scared.

can anyone please help me? soon i will have to do exam for my graduation from high school and because of these feelings i can't even focus in anything. 

i really don't know what to do.. please help meCryCryCry


Hey there, calm down.

I hope that this thing with the end of the world/dajjal thing is just a symptom of too much stress about your exams.

1, Don't worry about stuff you can't change. If it comes it does but it has not happened for many centuries and shows no sign of happening so....

2, The exams you are taking are not as important as the school teachers think they are. Those teachers have never worked outside the education system. They are under pressure to get you to perform. It's mostly their problem.

3, In your life do you really want to be an accademic? If so what in? If not, well, other stuff matters far more than just your GCSEs.

4, It's often tough being a teenager, especially as this world is putting pressure onto you to be about 5 different peole all of which are mutually contradictory.

Just do your best understanding that your best may well include days when you are rubbish and good days. Make sure you have a hobby!!!



Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 01 March 2018 at 3:19pm
@Miaw
Q: So why is this guy 'airmano' saying that there was no canonisation?
A: Because the 'poor guy' does not know what he is talking about. Smile

The real game are the Hadiths which are  considered as not valid (and not only "unreliable").

So, where is the collection of wrong hadiths, a list which would be accepted by the majority of (Sunni) Muslims and which can thus not be used as "jokers in the sleeve" anymore ?
The remaining ones would be the valid or "canonized ones" of course. 


Airmano


-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 04 March 2018 at 4:06am


Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

... So, where is the collection of wrong hadiths...

We have a collection of Authentic Hadiths, we don't need a collection of other Hadiths (although if you google it, you will find numerous attempts/works/lists of weak/fabricated Hadiths).









Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 04 March 2018 at 8:23am
Quote Miaw
We have a collection of Authentic Hadiths, we don't need a collection of other Hadiths 
 
So where is it ? The links you gave are more of a cooking instruction (how to bake a good hadith).

Once you have [shown] a list of authentic hadith can I conclude that the others are invalid ? (if not, why not ?)


Airmano


-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 04 March 2018 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Quote Miaw
We have a collection of Authentic Hadiths, we don't need a collection of other Hadiths 
 
So where is it ? The links you gave are more of a cooking instruction (how to bake a good hadith).

Once you have [shown] a list of authentic hadith can I conclude that the others are invalid ? (if not, why not ?)


Airmano

I would like to explain what is being discussed here, hopefully, it will be able to clarify the discussion.

All the wrong hadiths are very difficult to collect because so wild that they are difficult to detect, however, there are several ways to determine that a hadith is wrong, one of them is by looking at the contents of such hadith, is there any similarity of meaning in the Qur'an or not ...., because the shahih (authentic) hadith will not be contrary to Allah's law in the Qur'an.




Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net