Don't take a Jew or a Christian for a fri
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41578
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Topic: Don't take a Jew or a Christian for a fri
Posted By: MikePG7
Subject: Don't take a Jew or a Christian for a fri
Date Posted: 29 November 2017 at 4:45pm
| The Quran says "Don't take a Jew or a Christian for a friend". Why should I defend Muslims against discrimination when Islam discriminates against followers of other religions? |
Replies:
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 03 December 2017 at 4:26pm
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[Quran Chapter 60] 8. As for those who have not fought against you for your religion, nor expelled you from your homes, Allah does not prohibit you from dealing with them kindly and equitably. Allah loves the equitable. 9. But Allah prohibits you from befriending those who fought against you over your religion, and expelled you from your homes, and aided in your expulsion. Whoever takes them for friends�these are the wrongdoers. |
Posted By: MikePG7
Date Posted: 03 December 2017 at 4:38pm
| Nice try, but no cigar. The Quran couldn't be clearer - https://islamqa.info/en/59879 - https://islamqa.info/en/59879 . It seems that it is ok for Muslims to convert people to Islam, but the opposite deserves death. Face the facts - under Islam, Jews, Christians and other non-believers are sub-human. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 04 December 2017 at 2:47pm
|
@Naba
It doesn't help: 5:51 goes: Muhammad Sarwar: Believers, do not consider the Jews and Christians as your intimate friends for they are only friends with each other. Whoever does so will be considered as one of them. God does not guide the unjust people. In clear terms: You have a Christian friend -> you will be one of them -> you are thus unjust and a Kufr -> To hell you go. 60:8 is not about friends and therefore irrelevant 60:9 goes along the same lines as 5:51, so rather a confirmation of it. In clear terms: Naba's examples do by no means imply a change/softening of the meaning of 5:51. And even if it did: It would imply that the Quran contradicts itself - a thought most of the Muslims would dismiss as "impossible" I guess. No way out: Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:10am
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O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51)
It is obvious that Jews patronize the Jews and Christians patronize the Christians, so why not Muslims patronize Muslims and support their own people. This verse is not telling us to be against Jews or Christians, but it is telling us that we should take care of our own people and we must support each other. In his Tafsir, (Qur�an exegesis) Imam Ibn Kathir has mentioned that some scholars say that this verse (i.e. the one you referred to) was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, "I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." And another person said, "I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other. (See Ibn Kathir, Al-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68) Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. You are correct in pointing out that a Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says: [O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya') your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.] (Al-Tawbah 9: 23) In a similar way, the Qur'an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims's duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from oppression. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said that he himself will defend a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non-Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah Almighty says, [Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers�] (Aal-'Imran 3: 28) He Almighty also says: [O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?] (An-Nisaa� 4:144) |
Posted By: MikePG7
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:54am
| Another very good attempt to justify clear discrimination. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Islam says you can take a Jew or Christian or other "non-believer" as a friend or patron as long as they are not attacking Muslims because of their faith. Is that right? If so, then why doesn't the Quran simply say you can be friends with anyone as long as they don't attack Islam, and leave it at that? Why cast a slur on Jews and Christians by saying that you should not seek their help if you are being attacked? Why shouldn't you turn to a Jew or a Christian for help if you are being attacked because of your faith? A just man/woman will help anyone against injustice, regardless of their faith. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 08 December 2017 at 9:27am
@Naba
Many words in your post, but I still do not see why Quran 5:51 should all of a sudden not be valid anymore. Can you explain ? So, is 5:55 finally a valid surah or has Allah changed his mind (again) ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong.Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 December 2017 at 12:13pm
|
Greetings, This is why I reject Muhammad as bringer of God's Word. He engenders negatives, not positives.... focused on the condemnation of others, rather than focusing on teaching good things. He brings strife, teaches prejudice, and brings divisions. He was all to human, promising things of a fleshly(worldly) nature, rather than a spiritual nature. Speaking to men in the words and thoughts of men, appealing to their fallen human natures, rather than to a higher spiritual nature. Telling them the things they wanted to hear... that it was ok to hate thy neighbor and to make war against him... that it was ok to oppress them because you consider yourself superior. It to me is not a message of a loving Creator to engender striving among His creation. asalaam alaikum, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 03 January 2018 at 10:22pm
|
Dear Carringheart, Perhaps what you claim is because you see some Muslims behavior today, for example radicalism, Though the Prophet Muhammad never told his followers to behave like that. Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim: "Whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter, do not harm his neighbor, and whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter, honor his neighbors, and whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter, speak good words or be quiet. " Narrated by Muslim: "It is not a believer if he likes to denounce, curse, talk vile and talk dirty." Such hadiths have similar meaning to the word of Allah in Qur'an 3:159 and 60:8 etc. Therefore, Allah commands to be an Islamic as a whole as in His word (not partially). Especially in connection with the hadiths, not all of the current hadiths must be followed (it must be selected first about the truth), because there are so many hadiths scattered on this earth made by those who are not responsible who deliberately want to undermine the teachings of Islam and dropped the good name of the Prophet Muhammad. |
Posted By: MikePG7
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 2:40am
| Those are nice sentiments, but it's impossible to look at Islam in the round without also examining specific passages of the Quran. I'm not talking about the Hadiths at all. Perhaps Mohammed was just having a bad day when he was firing off at Jews and Christians. If so, why not just delete that passage? After all, the Bible is heavily edited too. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 9:35pm
Greetings asep garut, My impressions and conclusions come directly from reading the qur'an. I understand that there were good leaders who took only the best of what Muhammad taught. The trouble with Muhammad's message is that it is convoluted, it is conflicting with its own self. His message changed according to whatever was happening at the time. Here is an example right here: 60:9 Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong- doers. It essentially is saying that anyone that does not agree with your religion (anyone that has fought against, or refused to accept it), you can not be friends with them. It denies people the free-will to choose their destiny... to choose whom they can trust and be friends with. Obviously anyone who declared war against you for any reason you would not consider a friend... that would go without saying, but Muhammad is making a point here about not taking friends of anyone who does not share your religion, and that is a clear denial of people as individuals with their own free will to be good and trustworthy people or not, of which there exists both in any religion, in any culture, in any part of the world. Peace and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 10:44am
|
@Asep
You're the first Muslim I see who puts the Hadiths above the Quran !? Isn't the Quran considered as the direct word of God in Islam ? How come that Muhammad's personal opinion should weigh more than God's word ? Can you explain ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: HyderM
Date Posted: 07 January 2018 at 7:11am
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Dear MikePG7,
I guess the idea was probably to dispel disunity in times of crisis, I obviously don't claim to understand everything, only God has the entirety of knowledge and wisdom. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 20 January 2018 at 12:27am
Hi Caringheart, I hope you don't mind me joining this discussion, because I have noticed that you are contradicting yourself above: The verse clearly says: only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out And I stress on: only However you interpret it as: anyone that does not agree with your religion...refused to accept it Surely your interpretation is incorrect isn't it?
Well... would you take as a friend someone who you definitely know has waged war against you on any account and has driven you out from your home? because I certainly wouldn't. So clearly the verse is only stating the "Obvious" here...wouldn't you say? [P.S. I know that you corrected yourself in the next line, but your post still contradicts itself in my opinion.] Peace, MIAW |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 25 January 2018 at 1:41pm
|
@Miaw
When you look at the verse which started the thread (5:51) it (still) goes: Believers, do not consider the Jews and Christians as your intimate friends for they are only friends with each other. Whoever does so will be considered as one of them. God does not guide the unjust people. Is this now finally a clear instruction or not ? How do you handle/interpret the situation ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 27 January 2018 at 11:37am
@Airmano, Yes I agree with you, but I would like you to understand that this is not confined and restricted to only "Jews and Christians". You see... to a Muslim, the dearest thing he/she has is their faith (their God, their prophet, their religion...etc). They must not get into any situation where their faith might be in danger/jeopardy (i.e. compromised). A Muslim is instructed to protect his/her faith, even from those who are closest to them: [58:22] لَا تَجِدُ قَوْمًا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ يُوَادُّونَ مَنْ حَادَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلَوْ كَانُوا آبَاءَهُمْ أَوْ أَبْنَاءَهُمْ أَوْ إِخْوَانَهُمْ أَوْ عَشِيرَتَهُمْ أُولَئِكَ كَتَبَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمُ الْإِيمَانَ وَأَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحٍ مِنْهُ وَيُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ أُولَئِكَ حِزْبُ اللَّهِ أَلَا إِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ Sahih International: You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred. Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him. And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally. Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him - those are the party of Allah. Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful. Pickthall: Thou wilt not find folk who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who oppose Allah and His messenger, even though they be their fathers or their sons or their brethren or their clan. As for such, He hath written faith upon their hearts and hath strengthened them with a Spirit from Him, and He will bring them into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide. Allah is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him. They are Allah's party. Lo! is it not Allah's party who are the successful? Yusuf Ali: Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity. Shakir: You shall not find a people who believe in Allah and the latter day befriending those who act in opposition to Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their (own) fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kinsfolk; these are they into whose hearts He has impressed faith, and whom He has strengthened with an inspiration from Him: and He will cause them to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein; Allah is well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him these are Allah's party: now surely the party of Allah are the successful ones. Muhammad Sarwar: You will not find any people of faith in God and the Day of Judgment who would establish friendship with those who oppose God and His Messenger, even if it would be in the interest of their fathers, sons, brothers, and kinsmen. God has established faith in their hearts and supported them by a Spirit from Himself. He will admit them to Paradise wherein streams flow to live therein forever. God is pleased with them and they are pleased with God. These are members of the party of God and the party of God will certainly have everlasting happiness. Mohsin Khan: You (O Muhammad SAW) will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW ), even though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Ruh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And We will admit them to Gardens (Paradise) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Verily, it is the Party of Allah that will be the successful. At the end of the day, you live a short life (70-80 years more or less), and then you leave this life with only your faith and your deeds (you do not take your money, possessions, friends, relatives...etc). What should one say to his Host (Allah) when he then meets Him? "Oh sorry, I have no faith (in you)"? I hope this explains why our faith is so important to us, and hence the verses above. Having said all this, I have many non-Muslim colleagues, neighbours, acquaintances...etc. I am good to them (because Islam instructs/encourages me to be), and they are good to me. We have a good laugh (and other conversations) all the time. We have mutual trust, for example they often ask me to look after their home/possessions/cat when they go on holiday...etc. In fact, some of them think that I am one of the best things since sliced bread! LOL 
Prophet Muhammad PBUH said: �Be mindful of Allah wherever you are, follow a bad deed with a good deed and it will erase it, and behave with good character toward people.� behave with good character toward people means: Treat people well, any people, regardless of their faith, age, colour, background...etc. And there are many other Hadith about being kind towards your neighbours and treating them well regardless of their faith...etc: http://http://aboutislam.net/reading-islam/about-muhammad/the-prophets-strong-words-on-kindness-to-neighbors/ - http://aboutislam.net/reading-islam/about-muhammad/the-prophets-strong-words-on-kindness-to-neighbors/ (If this link doesn't work, then just copy it and paste it in Google) MIAW |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 28 January 2018 at 11:53am
|
@Miaw
Thanks for your open reply. I particularly appreciate that you manage to maneuver around this rather hostile statement in the Quran in a pragmatic manner. Just as a mental exercise: How would you feel if the "holy book" of any other religion explicitly stated: Lo! Don't trust Muslims. They are the misguided ones and [our] God will punish them in eternal hellfire. For we have the only true religion. [Our] God is wise, just and forgiving. Can you describe your feelings ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: dialamah
Date Posted: 30 January 2018 at 6:54am
From the Bible, 2 John 9-11: Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. 2 Chronicles 15:12-13: And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. It's not really unusual for religions to discourage their members from associating too closely with people from other religions - other than for the purpose of conversion, of course. Individuals choose how far they want to take these commands so that some will live in very closed communities and others will befriend almost anyone. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 31 January 2018 at 1:39am
Greetings airmano, Here are my feelings: Short answer: I would look very, very seriously and closely into that claim, study the evidence, and if satisfied: I would convert immediately. Because I would not want to spend one second in Hellfire, let alone eternity (even more so if Hellfire is described in some detail as it is in the Qur�an). Long(ish) answer: The hypothesis (claim) that you�ve written does not make any sense in my beliefs. Allow me to explain: There is only one god. I call Him Allah. Allah Has Created us and Put us on this Earth. He Has Given us a set of rules and commands to live by and instructions to follow� namely: Religion. Now� Allah Has sent us many prophets and messengers (Peace and Blessings Upon them All) to teach us his religion. Different prophets� but only One Religion every time (which is quite understandable, because why would the same god send different religions?). What is this religion called? Islam (which means: Submission to God�s Will). All of Allah�s prophets and messengers brought us the same religion since the beginning of time: Islam. The Qur�an tells us this. Here are some examples: Prophets Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob (Yaqoob) [2:127] {127} وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّا إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ And remember Ibrahim and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: for Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. {128} رَبَّنَا وَاجْعَلْنَا مُسْلِمَيْنِ لَكَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِنَا أُمَّةً مُسْلِمَةً لَكَ وَأَرِنَا مَنَاسِكَنَا وَتُبْ عَلَيْنَا إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ "Our Lord! Make of us Muslims bowing to Thy (Will); and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (Will); and show us our places for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. {129} رَبَّنَا وَابْعَثْ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ "Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, and sanctify them: for Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise." {130} وَمَنْ يَرْغَبُ عَنْ مِلَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِلَّا مَنْ سَفِهَ نَفْسَهُ وَلَقَدِ اصْطَفَيْنَاهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَإِنَّهُ فِي الْآخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ And who turns away from the religion of Ibrahim but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous. {131} إِذْ قَالَ لَهُ رَبُّهُ أَسْلِمْ قَالَ أَسْلَمْتُ لِرَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" he said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe." {132} وَوَصَّى بِهَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بَنِيهِ وَيَعْقُوبُ يَا بَنِيَّ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَى لَكُمُ الدِّينَ فَلَا تَمُوتُنَّ إِلَّا وَأَنْتُمْ مُسْلِمُونَ And this was the Legacy that Ibrahim left to his sons, and so did Ya'qub; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Allah). {133} أَمْ كُنْتُمْ شُهَدَاءَ إِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوبَ الْمَوْتُ إِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيهِ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِنْ بَعْدِي قَالُوا نَعْبُدُ إِلَهَكَ وَإِلَهَ آبَائِكَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ إِلَهًا وَاحِدًا وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ Were ye witnesses when Death appeared before Ya'qub? Behold he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, - of Ibrahim, Isma'il and Ishaq, - the One (True) God: to Him we bow (in Islam)." [22:78] {78} وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَى وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Ibrahim. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation) ; that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector, the best to protect and the Best to help! [3:65] {65} يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لِمَ تُحَاجُّونَ فِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَتِ التَّوْرَاةُ وَالْإِنْجِيلُ إِلَّا مِنْ بَعْدِهِ أَفَلَا تَعْقِلُونَ Ye People of the Book! why dispute ye about Ibrahim, when the Law and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye no understanding? {66} هَا أَنْتُمْ هَؤُلَاءِ حَاجَجْتُمْ فِيمَا لَكُمْ بِهِ عِلْمٌ فَلِمَ تُحَاجُّونَ فِيمَا لَيْسَ لَكُمْ بِهِ عِلْمٌ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ Ah! ye are those who fell to disputing (even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not! {67} مَا كَانَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ يَهُودِيًّا وَلَا نَصْرَانِيًّا وَلَكِنْ كَانَ حَنِيفًا مُسْلِمًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ Ibrahim was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah. (note: Unlike this translation, the Arabic Quranic text actually uses the term �Muslim�) [6:163] {163} لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ وَبِذَلِكَ أُمِرْتُ وَأَنَا أَوَّلُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ "No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His Will." (note: Unlike this translation, the Arabic Quranic text actually uses the term �Muslim�) Prophet Moses: [10:84] {84} وَقَالَ مُوسَى يَا قَوْمِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ آمَنْتُمْ بِاللَّهِ فَعَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلُوا إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُسْلِمِينَ Musa said: "O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His)." (note: Unlike this translation, the Arabic Quranic text actually uses the term �Muslims�) Prophet Solomon: [27:31] {31} أَلَّا تَعْلُوا عَلَيَّ وَأْتُونِي مُسْلِمِينَ "`Be ye not arrogant against me, but come to me in submission (to the true Religion).'" (note: Unlike this translation, the Arabic Quranic text actually uses the term �Muslims�) [27:42] {42} فَلَمَّا جَاءَتْ قِيلَ أَهَكَذَا عَرْشُكِ قَالَتْ كَأَنَّهُ هُوَ وَأُوتِينَا الْعِلْمَ مِنْ قَبْلِهَا وَكُنَّا مُسْلِمِينَ So when she arrived, she was asked, "Is this thy throne?" She said, "It was just like this; and knowledge was bestowed on us in advance of this, and we have submitted to Allah (in Islam)." [27:44] {44} قِيلَ لَهَا ادْخُلِي الصَّرْحَ فَلَمَّا رَأَتْهُ حَسِبَتْهُ لُجَّةً وَكَشَفَتْ عَنْ سَاقَيْهَا قَالَ إِنَّهُ صَرْحٌ مُمَرَّدٌ مِنْ قَوَارِيرَ قَالَتْ رَبِّ إِنِّي ظَلَمْتُ نَفْسِي وَأَسْلَمْتُ مَعَ سُلَيْمَانَ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ She was asked to enter the lofty Palace: but when she saw it, she thought it was a lake of water, and she (tucked up her skirts), uncovering her legs. He said: "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass." She said: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul: I do (now) submit (in Islam), with Sulaiman, to the Lord of the Worlds." Christian priests (envoys to Prophet Muhammad) [28:53] {53} وَإِذَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ قَالُوا آمَنَّا بِهِ إِنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا مِنْ قَبْلِهِ مُسْلِمِينَ And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord: indeed we have been Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will) from before this." [3:19] {19} إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْعِلْمُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): nor did the people of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account. [3:85] {85} وَمَنْ يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الْإِسْلَامِ دِينًا فَلَنْ يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). Prophet Joseph: [12:101] {101} رَبِّ قَدْ آتَيْتَنِي مِنَ الْمُلْكِ وَعَلَّمْتَنِي مِنْ تَأْوِيلِ الْأَحَادِيثِ فَاطِرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ أَنْتَ وَلِيِّي فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ تَوَفَّنِي مُسْلِمًا وَأَلْحِقْنِي بِالصَّالِحِينَ "O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams and events, O Thou creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy Will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous." Prophet Noah: [10:72} {72} فَإِنْ تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَمَا سَأَلْتُكُمْ مِنْ أَجْرٍ إِنْ أَجْرِيَ إِلَّا عَلَى اللَّهِ وَأُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ "But if ye turn back, (consider): no reward have I asked of you: my reward is only due from Allah and I have been commanded to be of those who submit to Allah's Will (in Islam)." Prophet Lot (Lut): [51:36] {36} فَمَا وَجَدْنَا فِيهَا غَيْرَ بَيْتٍ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ But We found not there any just (Muslim) persons except in one house: And the list goes on... So you see� that is what has been happening throughout the history of mankind: Allah sends a prophet to people with guidance and religion (i.e. to show them Allah�s will). Some (people) will heed the message and answer to the call: those automatically become �Muslims� because they have submitted to the Will of God� Others will oppose, disobey and choose arrogance (in fact some have even killed the messengers and prophets of Allah); they will change and tamper with the message that they were entrusted with (to suit their whims and worldly gain). Eventually, Allah�s message will be neglected and forgotten, and people will go astray� Every time people go astray from Allah�s religion, He sends another prophet to remind them of the same message� and so on� Therefore (going back to your question above), it does not make sense, because the recipients/obedients of that message are �Muslims� themselves. Now� I have a small question/mental exercise for you airmano:
The same God has sent us the same message repeatedly. However, He Decided to protect the Qur�an from tampering and altering, but not the earlier messages (Bible, Torah�etc). Do you know why? MIAW |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 January 2018 at 6:26pm
Greetings MIAW, In the lines of what you yourself have said, I would exhort you to further and complete study. 1. It is widely accepted that; "prophecy had ended with Ezra and Nehemiah; that is to say, at the end of the. Biblical period."2. There were indeed several ways in which the qur'an was recited, and there is a hadith on the matter (I'm sorry I don't have time to go back and find it right now, but it is there) ... according to said hadith, 'one of Muhammad's followers came to him asking about the several ways in which the qur'an was being recited and which was correct. To which Muhammad replied, take your pick... you choose.'3. Muhammad was indeed told that the Biblical scriptures were a reliable source: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Surah 10:94 Pickthall asalaam alaykum, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 January 2018 at 6:34pm
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Following up to my last post... By the grace of God and His guiding hand only, I have found my prior research on this matter and I here present it to you. Narrated by 'Umar bin Al-Khattab I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle): "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)." sahih-bukhari, Vol. 6, book 61, number 514 What do you say about these; "Ubayy entered the mosque and, hearing a man recite, asked him who had instructed him. The man replied that he had been taught by the Prophet. Ubayy went in search of the Prophet. When the man recited. Muhammad said, 'That is correct.' Ubayy protested, 'But you taught me to recite so-and-so,' The Prophet said that Ubayy was right too. 'Right? right?' burst out Ubayy in perplexity. The Prophet struck him on the chest and prayed, 'O Allah! cause doubt to depart.' Ubayy broke into a sweat as his heart filled with terror. Muhammad disclosed that two angels had come to him. One said, 'Recite the Qur'an in one form.' The other advised Muhammad to ask for more than this. That was repeated several times until finally the first angel said. 'Very well. Recite it in seven forms.' The Prophet said, 'Each of the forms is grace-giving, protecting, so long as you don't terminate a punishment verse with an expression of mercy, or vice-versa - as you might for example say, Let's go; or, let's be off.' " (Tafsir of Tabari.). "A man complained to the Prophet, Abdullah taught me to recite a Sura of the Qur'an. Zaid taught me the same Sura and so too did Ubayy. The readings of all three differ. Whose reading ought I to adopt?' Muhammad remained silent. Ali who was at his side replied, 'Every man should recite as he was taught. Each of the readings is acceptable, valid.' " (Tafsir of Tabari). "Umar said, I heard Hisam b. Hukaim reciting Surat al Furqan and listened to his recital. On observing that he was reading many forms which the Prophet had not taught me, I all but rushed upon him as he prayed. But I waited patiently as he continued, and, collaring him when he had finished, I asked him, 'Who taught you to recite this Sura?' He claimed that the Prophet had taught him. I said, 'By God! you're lying!' I dragged him to the Prophet telling him that I had heard Hisam recite many forms he had not taught me. The Prophet said, 'Let him go. Recite, Hisam.' He recited the reading I had already heard from him. The Prophet said, 'That is how it was revealed.' He then said, 'Recite, Umar', and I recited what he had taught me. He said, 'That's right. That is how it was revealed. This Qur'an was revealed in seven forms, so recite what is easiest.' "(Tafsir of Tabari). (See also Mishkat vol.III pp. 702-705). Also, Al Baizawi (in his commentary on Suras 3:100, 6:91, 19:35, 28:48, 33:6, 34:18, 38:22, etc.) suggests variations extant in his time. (Mizanu'l Haqq, page 261). "Umar bin Al-Khattab and Hisham bin Hakim were from the same tribe, therefore, this difference was not just a matter of dialect. Muslim leaders are exaggerating when they say there is only one version of the Qur'an. From the very beginning there were several versions. " ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 01 February 2018 at 2:37am
Greetings Caringheart, You have raised various interesting points. Thank you. I shall discuss them in due time. However� I shall start with point 3 above, because, by quoting the above verse from the Qur�an, you have unwittingly yelled: �Islam is the only TRUE religion, and the Qur�an is the only message/book that has not been corrupted and changed�!
How is that? (I hear you ask) Please allow me explain the verse in easy terms: [10:94] And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee The Verse is saying: � And if You (O� Muhammad!) are in any doubt about anything that We (Allah) Are Revealing to you (i.e. Islam, This Qur�an, The commands, The practices, The stories� anything whatsoever that You are receiving from Us), then go ask and check the books (Scriptures that We Have Sent Before� i.e. the Bible, Torah�etc). What You will (and should) find is the EXACT SAME message, same commands and practices, stories� In fact, You will find a �confirmation� of this Message. And this Qur�an is a �confirmation� of earlier Messages and Religions�. This is very easy to understand and accept in my opinion: Because you would expect the same God to send the SAME MESSAGE, and not different messages. I find this obvious. However� If Prophet Muhammad PBUH (or any other person) goes and checks any Biblical Scriptures that we have today (i.e. not the very original ones that were not changed and tampered with), what would they find? Answer: They would find a very DIFFERENT MESSAGE from the Qur�an. They would find that God (Allah) now Has a Son!... Religious practices (Praying, fasting�etc) have been �adjusted� and are now different� Wine is now part of Religious Services in places of worship�etc�etc. In other words: Do you really think that God would Challenge His Prophet to go and confirm His Message, Knowing that he would find major differences? Think about this. The Qur�anic verse that you have quoted above tells us that: - There only One God. - He has Sent us many prophets and Messengers, but with the Same Message (Religion) - Any other Message that is different� is not God's (i.e. it�s been changed by men) MIAW |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 February 2018 at 12:31pm
Greetings and blessings to you MIAW, this word of Muhammad's comes directly from the Biblical scriptures, from the Acts of the Apostles. 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.Jesus Himself proclaimed: 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:and the Jews were shown to be wrong, when the truth was revealed, on the day of Yshwe's(known to the Greeks, the gentiles, as Jesus) resurrection. Yshwe always spoke of God as His Father. further; 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.fruit of the vine - wine - red in the cup, as blood Nothing has changed. All is done according to, and as Yshwe did with His own Disciples. You really must study and know the things Yshwe said and did... but Muhammad denies and prevents all muslims from knowing Yshwe and His Word. You are blessed to live in a time when you can access the words of Isa. Also from the scriptures, from the prophet Daniel:
air travel, satellite, and the internet have allowed people to 'run to and fro', gathering knowledge. Also the words of Yshwe to the Disciples that were with Him:
Christians are being afflicted all across the world. Many muslims are feeling 'offended'. Neighbors betray one another and are taught hate for one another. Iniquity abounds. AND, the Gospel of the kingdom of God (i.e., the Word of Yshwe) is becoming available in places all over the world. asalaam alaykum, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 01 February 2018 at 12:43pm
This just proves Mohamad and the Quaran were and are confused. The Quaran says "... question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee." ( Surah 10:94) but yet the Injel (Gospels) contradict the Quran. And where is your proof the Christian scriptures were tampered with and corrupted? Who did this? when? where ? and why? Please provide proof ! I can prove the Christian scriptures we have today are the same that existed long before Mohamad was ever born. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 February 2018 at 3:33am
Greetings MIAW, I love what you write. We could be kindred spirits. I have written words so very similar to yours many times in the past... encouraging people to see people as individuals, not as groups or subsets.  and like you, I have gained valuable lessons from my interactions with muslims, and I am always conscious to pass that knowledge on when I can, in speaking with others. When people comment on my politeness, I tell them, 'I learned that from my muslim friends'. (I have also had some very negative interactions with muslims, but as you say... individuals. I work always towards peace and friendship. )Sadly I have also seen children being taught hatred in too many parts of the world, and this not only saddens, but sickens me... to see the innocence of childhood stripped away. Where small children are taught to wield weapons. (literally) This is an abuse of children and of childhood, and the adult which can not see this... i.e., the adult that treats children in this way.... is blinded by evil. Children are so easily molded and adults should protect their innocence. (sorry, got on a bit of a soapbox there )I appreciate you. asalaam alaykum, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 03 February 2018 at 10:34am
Answer: Yes I do, but the truth may be too unpleasent. To soften it, may I (again) answer with a counter question ? Assuming that God (really) tried to send the same message in all the books you quoted: Can you explain me why God didn't manage to protect the first message(s) (Thorah/Bible) ? Can't he get the job right in one single attempt ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 05 February 2018 at 6:32am
Caringheart, It's true that 60: 9 states so, but here it must be known also about revealing of such verse, what's going on at that time. You said �It essentially
is saying that anyone that does not agree with your religion (anyone that has
fought against, or refused to accept it), you can not be friends with
them. It denies people the free-will to choose their destiny... to choose
whom they can trust and be friends with.� |
Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 05 February 2018 at 6:57am
Airmano, For me it's okay if you want to say that I am the first Muslim you see who put the Hadith above the Quran. But I personally since childhood has been told by my parents that the main source of Islamic law is the Qur'an and then the Sahih Hadith. One of the differences between the Qur'an and the hadith is: Qur'an is authentic in its contents, whereas the hadith is not all authentic. Therefore, what I said that such hadith has similarity with the content in the Qur'an, it means that the hadith is sahih ... because the "matan" (content) of the hadith has a similarity in its meaning. |
Posted By: Pete
Date Posted: 14 March 2018 at 4:52am
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Its phrases like that which make me question a religion. There's no reasoning to them whatsoever. Its quite false to claim that a Jew is or isn't a friend to someone because of their religion. It's the same with Muslims and Christians too. In those days when I was a Christian I never felt like I could be more of a friend to a Jew than to a Christian. There has never been a reason to. I can understand that whoever said that (Mohammed?) was speaking about the Jews and Christians who were present at the time it was said but times change. I doubt that most Christians and Jews have negative feelings about Muslims. However there are plenty of evil people in the world who hate for no valid reason other than someone being different than them. I suggest that any religious text be taken in the context of the time in which it was written.
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 14 March 2018 at 10:33pm
My translation reads ally, not friend. Muhummad had a Christian uncle and a Christian wife, and they appear to have been friends. Muhummad did not allow Christians and Jews to fight, but he did protect them. Pete is right. Any text should taken in context and read carefully. The usually several sentences make up a fully formed thought, and these often have a common theme. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: debatedebate
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 3:21am
This is Mushin Khan translation. The word Auliya also appear in 9:23. O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust). (Quran 5 51) O you who believe! Take not for Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.) your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to Belief. And whoever of you does so, then he is one of the Zalimun (wrong-doers, etc.) (Qur'an 9:23) |
Posted By: ovibos
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 8:03pm
Please allow me to weigh in ....
Most Jews and Christians believe that the Pentateuch (the Torah) is written by Moses, and most Christians believe that the Gospel is the authentic words of Jesus. But that is not correct. Most scholars believe that Pentateuch is written by at least five different authors that they call as J, E, P, D, and R, and the Pentateuch reached its final form (like we have today) around 400 B.C. What makes scholars think that the Pentateuch is not written by Moses, but by five different authors instead? 1. The different name of God, especially before the Exodus, where J calls God with the tetragrammaton, while E and P call God by Elohim 2. The doublets: stories that written twice or more in the Pentateuch, for example Abraham's wife/sister story, the water in Massah and Meribah story. the quails (Exodus 16 v Numbers 11), etc. 3. The most humble person in the world is unlikely to state that he is the most humble person in the world. (Numbers 12:3) 4. Moses is very unlikely wrote about his own death What is the proof that the Torah has been tampered? Both Protestants and Catholics believe in the Ten Commandments, but they differ on the number of the order where Protestants believe the second commandment is "Do not make any graven image" while Catholics believe that it's part of the first commandment (Do no have any other gods except Him). On the other hand, the Catholics break down the last commandment of the Protestants'version into two different commandments. Which one is right, the Catholic or the Protestant? In my opinion, the Catholics might be right when they combine the first and the second commandment into one, that is: "You shall not have other gods before Me, You shall not make any graven image etc". However, that makes the Ten Commandments becomes Nine Commandments. So, what is the Tenth Commandment? Samaritan Pentateuch has this extra commandment. Besides Samaritan Pentateuch, the Shapira Manuscripts also has the Tenth Commandment. I have read the Shapira Manuscript, and in my opinion the Shapira Manuscript is more logical than the Deuteronomy that we have today. How about the Gospel? Are all words of Jesus in the Gospel really the words of Jesus? It's very unlikely. For example: It is very unlikely that Jesus said this exact words: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." If Jesus really said this words, he likely to say those words as "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and me whom You have sent." Moreover, we know that Jesus didn't speak Greek. Jesus spoke either Aramaic or Hebrew, or both, but not Greek. However, all Gospels are written in Greek, not Aramaic nor Hebrew. Except for the original gospel of Matthew that was written in Hebrew that Jerome calls it as "matthaei authenticum' or the original Matthew, but now it's long gone. The Gospels that we know today are written in Greek around forty to seventy years after the death of Jesus, based on oral traditions. How accurate were these oral traditions? God only knows. Based on my experience, I only know that oral traditions are usually not that accurate. Is there any really authentic Gospel that contains the exact words of Jesus? Probably. The scholars call it as Q (the short for Quelle), that is the "gospel" that was used by Matthew and Luke as one of their sources when they wrote their own gospel. In conclusion. the Torah we know today might be very different from the Torah in the time of Moses, or even the Torah in the time of Samuel or David. The Gospels we know today might be not the words of Jesus.
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 10:49pm
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The bible is more comparable to the hadith than the Qu'ran. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: ajzhyder
Date Posted: 20 April 2018 at 1:25pm
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Al-Kitab mentions several groups of people with certain names or labels, such as Momin, Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc. When Al-Kitab introduces these labels it also gives behaviors or traits of these people. A very important point to understand is that when Al-Kitab mentions for example 'Jews' it means those people who act according to traits given in Al-Kitab for Jews, and not by what the world calls them or not by what label they put on themselves. And when Al-Kitab mentions 'Muslims', then those people who match the characteristics of 'Muslims' in Al-Kitab are meant. The labels that people put on themselves don't matter. If some people call and label themselves as 'Muslims', however, their actions actually match the traits of 'Jews' given in the Book, then they are actually 'Jews' in the eyes of the Lord. Vice Versa, if some people call and label themselves as 'Jews', however they do not match the characteristics of 'Jews' in the Book, they are not 'Jews' in the eyes of the Lord. |