Salaam,

I have curiousity to why some of you (if not many) dislike my country?

ak_m_f wrote: I dont like the current Administration, US is a nice country.

Ditto.

Hypocrisy.

1. While the United States portrays itself as a land of opportunity for all:

a. It has a property taxed based educational system that perpetuates a drastic differential in educational opportunities between the rich and poor.

b. As a result of slavery, an ideology of extreme racism toward African Americans still persists among a significant portion of the population.

c. Higher education is beyond the reach of the lower classes, thus perpetuating both the class and racial disparity.

d.African Americans are dramatically overrepresented in the prison system due to the lack of opportunities resulting from (a) and (c) and a general bias against African Americans resulting from (b).

2. While the United States claims to promote democracy and freedom:

a. The nation itself was created from land stolen from other people against whom the US government committed genocide and whom the government refuses to compensate for these genocidal acts.

b. The nation's wealth is in great part due to the use of slaves, whom the government refuses to compensate for their enslavement and their continued underprivileged status.

c. The US has overthrown numerous democratically elected governments or contributed to their overthrow, and assisted dictators who oppress and kill their citizenry: Iran, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, for example.

d. The US is currently engaged in a series of wars against Middle Eastern regimes under the guise of "democratization" with the intention of gaining control of the vast petroleum resources there to cripple its primary competitors, Russia and China.

I dislike many other countries even more than the United States, for different reasons.

Sure is good to be back

Shamil half your post is true the other total well....a sham.

1) This is a nation where everyone has the abiltily to go as far in life as they want.the only barriers are self imposed..You have a computer you can get an education on line.you can get a degree and a high paying job from the compfort of home.No racial anything in the way.the poor could set up a free yahoo e-mail account and use a computer in the library.

2) This nation was in fact taken from the indians true. How do you compensate a people for such a thing? well you claim the US didn't even try.........in 1949 a federal law was passed that no only make all indians exempt from paying taxes,but the resevations they live on have special rules allowing indians to open casinos and keep all the profits and pay no taxes.that translates into billions of dollars into the red mans pockets every year.

3)Slavery made america rich????? slavery was abolished 140 years ago.dont tell me all those fortune 500 companies made it where they are by explioting the poor black man.....what a sham!

4)America is a big game of tag! I have no problem throwing out a racial slur here and there why? I have earned the right. see every ethnic heritage at one point has been at the bottem of the totem pole there has been a time when Irish and Italians were discriminated against,Then the blacks. there was a time not long ago when it could be argued that blacks and hispanics were at the bottem.Then came Sept 11,2001. thats when the black man and the hispanic man walked up to the arab american and went"Tag your it." Check the statistics Hate crimes and discrimination against Middle easterners has went up 700%.and another bad thing is Indians(the ones from india)also have bore the wrath of zealous bigots who do not distigish between muslim or hindu.they see that skin color and thats it.

5)true many of the wars of the last 50 years have been part of the cold war. The US supplied weapons to the Afgans when the Sovets invaded.Not because we cared so much about the Afghans as it was a chance to stick it to the Russians as they did to us in Vietnam. plus we wanted to see how those new stinger missles worked against russian aircraft before we issued them to our troops in Germany.The Soviets provided weapons to any Arab country willing to oppose Isreal the US supplied Isreal.Again US weapons against soviet.In the Yom Kippur war in 1974 the US made tanks were initially outmatched.But those antitank rockets we gave the Isrealis worked well so we armed our troops in germany with those.you might think this is evil for us to do but When the first gulf war broke out.We knew just where to hit those Iraqi T-72s to destroy them.The M-16 assult rifle has 3 times the range of the AK-47. Hence american troops killed Iraqis long before the Iraqis could get into range. The US long ago captured a T-72 and they took it to a test range.and fired every type of projectile possible from the cannon measuring the force and the muzzle velocity of the T-72.then we built a tank with special armour made of depleated uranium strong enough to deflect any thing a T-72 shoots.then put a cannon on our tank so strong a dummy practice round could punch through the strongest Russian made tank. thats why our tanks ripped right through the Iraqi tanks. Advantages like that came directly from forigen proving grounds. Inginuity is what we do here.

Shamil,

Yes, in some very real respects there is a double standard in the US.  The poor/rich divide is growing.  Student assistance programs are underfunded.  I myself owe nearly $30,000 in student loans and I left college my senior year because I was denied more loans and could not pay the $12,000 in tuition owed after financial aid. 

However, in that same vein, higher education is becoming MORE accessible in other ways.  Non traditional schools are allowing for people like my husband who did not have the opportunity of college after high school to get an education, cheaply and while he is still working.  My sister is obtaining a business degree online and more employers are offering tuition reimbursement if your degree is of use to the company.

Racism is a problem in the United States, but its also a problem elsewhere.  We were not the only nation to use slaves and England nearly sided with the Confederacy during the Civil War.  The problem with compensation of the ex slaves is you have to research and accurately account for the decendents of millions of slaves.  It took the black decendents of Thomas Jefferson 200 years to establish paternity.  I am an amature geneologist and it would be a bureaucratic nightmare.  Not every African American in this country would be due money, while getting it to those who would deserve it would be an insurmountable task, you would be paying people who themselves were not enslaved.  A single slave would have 1000s of decendents by now spread all over the country.  Perhaps a better solution would be to set up more foundations like the United Negro College Fund. 

Of course, then I would ask where is the compensation coming from.  My taxes?  Most of my family arrived AFTER the Civil War, and those that were hear since 1662 never owned slaves.  I have researched that branch thoroughly.  Why should I have to pay for the sins of another?

What really upsets me about our government is their continued blind eye to the plight of the native americans.  The Skull Valley nuclear waste dump will be on a reservation and the paltry sum given to the tribe will not cover their medical expenses when the stuff will be dumped there.  But there have been progresses made.  Kenski mentioned a few, there is also a law, forbidding white americans or any non native for that matter to adopt a native american child.  A child who belongs to a recognized tribe cannot be adopted outside the tribe unless they hold council and decide.  I still feel there should be more social programs to help.  The Casino dollars are not trickling down to the average tribe member and they are still in horrible circumstances.

The problem with the US is we are still a land of opportunity, or we wouldn't have so many immigrants coming in legally and illegally every year.  But, the dreams of those that got off the boat with my family were of a different era and now the US is at a crossroads.  Change is coming, for better or worse?  We can only do our best to make it the former and not the latter.

I'm afraid I've seen and read too much to share your optimistic view, Angela.

However, as for your question as to why you should pay compensations to the victims of slavery, visit this site:

http://www.reparationsthecure.org/ - http://www.reparationsthecure.org/

This organization explains the issues much better than I can.

This is a quote from that site:

We express our intent to call upon the families of the white American aristocracy that directly benefited from slavery, to voluntarily pay their fair share of the reparations debt with wealth gained from slavery, the slave trade, and slavery related enterprises.

Considering the use does not have a "white american aristocracy" as this intends, the money would come out of my check.  And Shamil, I can barely make ends meet now. 

Bill Gates....Microsoft was not around during the Civil War.

Marriott and Hilton.....made their fortunes after the Civil War.

Rockafeller, Hearst and Astor....many of these fortunes are already gone...the companies dissolved and flung to the four winds.

Who is going to pay?  Again, people who had nothing to do with the Slavery. 

May I ask you a question?  If your great, great, great, great, great....yes its been that long....grandfather stole a goat from another man in 1860-65, would you be responsible to go to the man's decendant and give him a goat?  Which of his decendants gets the goat?  Or do you give them all goats? 

I know that's over simplifying the issue.  But, many of the companies that benefitted from slavery are gone....many of the plantation owners were financially ruined after the war anyway.  What do you pay a person for what their ancestors complete humiliation and forced labor?  The average wage in those days was a few dollars a year.  Even by todays standards, how would you calculate it? 

Reparations are not the answer to the pain and suffering the slaves endured.  And I for one refuse to pay for something neither I nor my family did.... 

I read over the website.....they really don't have a plan for payment and their statements are vague as to WHO should pay......

I have many AA friends and my husband and I might be adopting an AA child.  I am not a racist, I just don't feel that more people should have hardships put on them because of something that happened 150 years ago. 

Reparations would hurt the poor, not the rich.  It would be taken from our taxes which pay for our social programs....or it would be passed to us in the form of higher consumer goods from the few companies that still exist.

In the end, reparations are not a cure.

Assalamu alaikum,

Brother Israfil, I can only speak for myself, but there may be many who feel as I do.  I used to "hate" countries but have grown to realize it isn't a country that you can hate, nor even its people.  What is hated is the actions done and their results:

• I hate poverty, especially knowing millions of children in this world go to bed hungry every night
• I hate that some people have more money than they could ever spend on anything while others can barely make enough for rent
• I hate oppression of any kind
• I hate excess of any kind
• I hate that some get richer and richer on the backs of the poor
• I hate when people express an ideal (ie. bill of rights, constitution, religious convictions...) but don't actually practice it
• I hate when people who profess their love of freedom use that freedom to do things that are evil or bad for the society
• I hate close mindedness, arrogance, sectarianism, secularism, nationalism, patriotism, and most of all racism
• I hate when any nation, sect, people, tribe...interfere in the lives of others by political overthrows, backing of dictators, occupation of lands, or any other disruptive interference
• I hate when anyone feels that "their way" is the only way
• more than anything, I hate injustice

Sadly, I could go on and on with this list, but you get the idea.  It isn't nations who do these bad things, it is individual people.  Many take their rage at these injustices out on a nation or a government, it is easier to do that than to realize that it is individual "bad/evil/selfish..." people who carry out injustice.  Many of these people use others to do their nasty deeds.  Sometimes nasty people band together to do these nasty deeds.

When we vent our rage at all the nastiness in the world, how can we possibly know or even list the individual people who are to blame?  Isn't it easier to just hate a country, or political party, or sect, or whatever...?

We are all individuals, each of us responsible before Allah for our own deeds.  We should try not to blame any entity because painting all with the same brush is always wrong. 

Israfil, your country is just the place you happened to be born and raised, it isn't any better or any worse than any other country - it's all geography.  You shouldn't take offense when people vent their rage at your country, they are just venting rage.  You can no more do anything about it than they can about that which they rage about.

It is the actions of individual people that make or break the life of this world.  When we can all look at this world without seeing any borders, we will finally be "growing up" as human beings.  Insha'allah this post makes sense....

Peace, ummziba.

Angela wrote: In the end, reparations are not a cure.

I vehemently disagree and hope that one day you will think as I do.

Salaam,

I agree Sister Ummziba with your post. The elements f what makes up a country are the inviduals that reside in them and even these individuals sometimes aren't to blame for the tragedies of the world. but it appears that here and in the world the United States seems to be the blame. And yes there are even people who hate the people of America. So many think that we tend to vote the president in, who, they believe was the common selection among other canidates.

However I feel that since America has double standards and they're commonly known many have used America as the scape goat for many of the worlds ills rather, take responsibility for the self. Regarding the issue of reparations I myself as an African-American do not believe in it. Abraham lincoln promised my ancestors 40 acres and a mule. We still don't have it. I agree with Angela you cannot possibly give reparations to every single descendant of slaves because this would be as she said would be insurmountable, some speculate would be in the amount of over trillions of dollars.

I ont believe that those who have no taken responsibility in the enslavement of Africans should not be held responsible. Also as she mentioned this country was not the only one. What about Africans who sold their own? And the Arabs and the Dutch and so on and so forth. Even if such an act occured this would not  cure the plague of racism. In fact I see reparations as making American Anglo's bitter because they would be punished for something the descendants of today didnt commit.

However the actions of today she be looked at the through the individual's nature rather blame everything on America because we are the perfect scape goat for eveything wrong with the world.

I wholeheartedly agree. 

Another problem we have here in America is the media.  And by media, I mean movies, TV, newspapers, magazines and even books fiction and non-fiction.  In a country where everyone is allowed to say what they want, we have a disproportionate number of people who are vocal and don't represent the ideals of the Masses.

For example, Hollywood chose to honor "Brokeback Mountain" with a Golden Globe for Best Picture.  Yet, 17 states passed legislation against Gay Marriage last year and it looks like the total will be 25 by the end of the year.  One man in our area, Larry H Miller, chose not to show the movie at his Cinema theaters, he gave no official reason.  However, he was flamed as a bigot and anti-gay because of his personal choice. 

Hollywood and other media outlets often show the worst that this country has to offer.  Sex and Violence in movies, Crime on the news and reports of corruption in the media.  How can the average american be recognized as a hardworking person of faith, when you turn on the TV on Sunday nights and see Desperate Housewives committing all sorts of horrible acts?

I think the people of Hollywood who think that appearing in movies gives them a right to dictate the morals of this country are to blame for alot of the negative perceptions that foreigners have about the United States.  The days of The Cosby Show and other family oriented shows are long gone.  Its either sitcoms, reality TV or sleasy dramas and comedies.

I agree reparations should be made!!!!!! To ME! for one a house I bought cost 100k then 3 years later the city built projects 2 blocks away.the property value tanked and I had to sell the house for 70k because that was the best price I could get...........My family lost twins at Gettysburg,and another at Pea Ridge. Fighting for the union to free the slaves. and you think I should hand over cash too??? In fact I read somewhere that only 3-5% of blacks in the US have ancestors that were slaves.......I have some jewish blood can I have reparations for those pryamids?

kenski70 wrote: taken from the indians true. How do you compensate a people for such a thing? well you claim the US didn't even try.........in 1949 a federal law was passed that no only make all indians exempt from paying taxes,but the resevations they live on have special rules allowing indians to open casinos and keep all the profits and pay no taxes.that translates into billions of dollars into the red mans pockets every year.

This is one reason I find the USA so insufferable right now, this air of superiority our country exudes as a whole. Most especially the average white person, who really believes that just by virtue of being born in the USA(the country they stole) they are somehow just better, morally superior, and qualified to tell every other person on the planet how to live the "correct" way.

Have you ever been on a Reservation? I am 1/8th Cherokee so my family is entitled to live on Reservation land. My sister lived on a Reservation in L'anse, Michigan for about 5-6 years. I would hardly call it compensation. It was more like a refugee camp without the tents. And yes, the Native Americans have gambling, but that is about all. And how nice of our Christian government to "give" the Native Americans such a righteous way to make a bit of money. Native Americans suffer from Cultural Despair. Native Americans have a suicide rate double that of any other Americans. They are plagued by alcoholism, drug abuse, and unemployment. On the whole, they  have lost their identity, their homes, their language, their reason to survive.

Of course, all occupying entities must feel that they have the right to commit genocide and destroy a whole people and their way of life or they wouldn't do so. And shuffling the survivors off to Reservations somehow makes up for this destruction...

This is the same mindset that allows most Americans to justify the treatment of the Palestinians, the invasion of Iraq, to turn a blind eye to the genocides in Rwanda, The Sudan, The Congo, etc...

Well Mishmish you maybe frustrated with America becauese of you past heritage but look at mine as well. We can all compare and contrast suffering just like the Jews and Palestinians do with their issues, but my main point here is that suffering occurs all over the world. But I have this sense that there is an obligation especially from Muslims broad to speak against America for what happens abroad. I refuse to post pitures of Abu Ghraib or speak against atrocities cause I know they exist, but I also have atrocities in my homeland as well. Maybe we she should think about that before we speak against the U.S

If we do not speak against the wrongs done by our country in our name, then who will?

I am not frustrated because of my heritage, I am frustrated because of what is happening now, today within our borders and abroad. A wrong is a wrong, whether it is perpetrated against my fellow citizens or against the citizens of another country.

I was a little confused by your post Israfil. Are you saying that you should speak out or you shouldn't?

This is one reason I find the USA so insufferable right now, this air of superiority our country exudes as a whole. Most especially the average white person, who really believes that just by virtue of being born in the USA(the country they stole) they are somehow just better, morally superior, and qualified to tell every other person on the planet how to live the "correct" way.

My Mother's second husband was 3/4 soiux so yes i am familure with how bad the indians got screwed over.I think the point I was trying to make about the casinos was that in that case the gov. at least acknowleged what happened was wrong.and tried to do something.as you pointed out it will never be enough........Now about the above part.what you have there is right on the money. That attitude you mentioned is the mark of an American! That I have to try to be the best,Have to have the best,and hey you should try this too attitude is What separates Americans from  Europe. OK heres an example During the space race Both Russia and the US. had manned spacecraft.the US spent 3 million dollars developing an inkpen that would work in zero gravity.The Russians used a pencil. Did we? No we are Americans and we want an inkpen and damn it we're getting an inkpen!!! Thats the kind of people we are.

As-Salaam Alaikum,

I came to visit.  I am have been really busy with school.  What a coincidence, I have to write a paper about reparations and the topic is on here.  I am African-American before I did this paper I didn't agree with reparations either.  As I am studying I don't know what to think now.  I am surprised to learn this talk about reparation has going on since the civil war ended.  Some say before the civil war, but I can't find documentation on that.  I am reading documentation about leaders who fought for reparation such as Callie House. There is a book written about her, she fought for reparations during the post-civil war era.  Queen Mother Moore fought for reparations during the civil right movement.  I have learnt that Malcolm X spoke about reparations, and Martin Luther King, Jr too.  If anyone listen to his I have a dream speech you will catch it.  I am really surprised.  I feel if this was handle back in 1865 I wouldn't be writing about this subject.  Maybe this is the problem. 

I have learned that some have whites have always been upset about giving reparations to African-Americans.  From 1865 to this present day.  The reason why reparations wasn't given to African-American in the past was due to racism, and how society thought of African-American.  In giving reparations to African-American some whites saw that reparations would empower them and allow African-Americans to rule along side with white people.  Some whites didn't like that.  I am learning that some people thought that forty acres and a mule was basically "racism in reverse." "Racism in reverse," see history repeating itself.   I am also learning that it brought into question the belief of white supremacy and privilege. Some whites felt that at time that America should be ran and ruled by whites only.  This really could've happen because after the civil war ended Abraham Lincoln kept asking the ex-slaves to go back to Africa because some of whites wanted America to be a white country.  I am serious this is true, this is really some heavy stuff I am learning and I don't know what to say.   

Mishmish, what you have also said was right on.  I think it is easy for us to talk about what is going on in other countries but we don't talk about what is going on over here.  I have been studying reparations regarding Native Americans too, a lot of things I am learning in that also.  Ok, I am going to bed now.  I am sleepy. 

Hakeema

kenski70 wrote: the US spent 3 million dollars developing an inkpen that would work in zero gravity.The Russians used a pencil. Did we? No we are Americans and we want an inkpen and damn it we're getting an inkpen!!! Thats the kind of people we are.

Something to be proud of. Why feed hungry children or fight illiteracy when we can write with a ballpoint pen upside down in space... Absolutely brilliant example of true American spirit, and I have to hand it to you Kenski70 for pointing it out...

Assalamu Alaikum

Sister Ummziba.  I love your post.  How very true are your words; I could not have said it better.

Kenski, how kind of you to point out that your mother's second husband was 3/4 souix which makes you familiar with NATIVE AMERICN life.  Obviously it didn�t teach you any respect for NATIVE AMERICANS.  I am offended by your remarks.  How dare you refer to my ancestors as the RED MAN.  My ancestors did NOTHING to deserve what happened to them.  If you think for one second that the US government�s allowing casinos on reservation soil was any type of compensation or act of kindness, you are truly ignorant of how our government did and still does treat NATIVE AMERICAN.  I strongly suggest that you simply stop speaking about something you obviously know nothing about; i.e., MY ANCESTORS.  There is an excellent book called A People�s History of the United States by Howard Zinn.  I strongly suggest you read it. 

I also want to see proof regarding your statement that only 3-5% African American of the current population have ancestors who were slaves.  If you are correct, then there was an African American genocide here in the US at some point after the end of slavery which I and others don�t know about.  Although I know that the KKK tried their best to do such, Alhamdulillah they were not successful. 

Brother Shamil, if you are all for compensation/reparations to Africans who are descendant of those who were sold into slavery, then do you agree that all descendents of Africans sold into slavery should be compensated?  What I mean is this, African slavery did not merely take place in the colonial US.  The African slave trade started in 1450 with slaves being sold to South American, and Central American, the Caribbean Islands and Mexico before African slavery came to the colonial US.  In fact, of the 12 million African slaves who successful reached the Americans between 1450 and 1850, only about 7% were sold to the North America (which includes Mexico).  50% was sold into slavery in South American, 40% to the Caribbean Islands and 3% to Central American.  Are you going to push for those other countries to give compensation as well?

And that only covers the Americas.  There is still the problem with black slavery in Europe and the countries in the eastern hemisphere of the world.  How about the 17 million African slaves that were taken from the eastern side of Africa by Muslims between 1500 and 1900?  Those slaves went to the Middle East and North African countries that were part of the Ottoman Empire.  Should we make current days Muslims pay compensation as well?

It is a well known fact that approximately 50% of all African slavery sold into slavery to the Americas were not kidnapped by slave traders but rather sold into slavery by other Africans.  In fact, approximately 100% of the slaves from the �Slave Coast� of West African were sold by the Yoruba Kingdom.  They were captured during wars between other tribes or in many cases were their own tribesmen.  What do we do about this situation?  It would appear that we cannot leave out this aspect of the slave trade.  Do we make the Yoruba tribes of Western Africa who benefited from the profits they made during the slave trades give something to this endeavor?  By the way, approximately 100% of the African slaves that were sold to colonial US were obtained through the �Slave Coast�.  If you look into US African Slave Heritage, you will see that the large majority of them are descendants of the Yoruba�s as are those in the Caribbean Islands.

Who gets compensated for the millions who died while being extracted from the interior of African�it is reported that one top of the numbers that reached their final destinations, there were literally millions more who died simply getting them to the costs to be shipped with an equal number dying in the ships as they were being transported.  In fact, the number of Africans who were directed affected by the slave trade (those taken to be slaves) could have been as many as 75 million over the course of 300 years.

I can go on and on and on about this, it is a subject that I have taken great pains to understand.  The truth of the matter is that it was truly a holocaust one which over shadowed the Jewish holocaust by far in sheer numbers alone (both in number of years that it took place over and the number of humans who lost their lives).  The sad fact is that it was a world wide event�that is, there was not a continent in this world (that was inhabited by humans) that did not take part in it (including Africa itself) and, therefore, were partly responsible.  If we look at the overall history of African slavery, the colonial US�s involvement was no greater than any other country or Empire�s involvement.  In fact, the number of slaves who were sold to the colonial US may be amongst the lowest of all countries and/or empires who were involved in the slave trade.  NO, I�m not trying to minimize here, what I�m trying to do is to make you see that the US is blamed for something that no other country and/or empire is blamed for although other counties/empires were as much, if not more, to blame for African slavery as was the colonial US.  Why is that?

Of all of the countries that were involved in the African slave trade, the colonial US was involved for one of the shortest periods of time.  Prior to African slavery, there were indentured slaves who were a product of British rule.  (Although my mother�s side of my family is Native American, my father�s bloodline got its start in the US through indentured servitude (i.e., slavery) long before the US won its independence from Britain.  The Brits didn�t like the Scots too much back then I guess.)  Should we blame American for those were slaves before the Africans were brought over?  And if so, do we own them compensation too?  What about all of the other descendents of salves in the world?  Where do we stop?   And how do we justify compensating some and not others? 

I, also, want to know why the US is still being criticized for its past involvement in slavery but no one is speaking out about the slavery that still exists in the world today.  It is a well documented fact that slavery still exists today in some parts of the world.  Shouldn�t we be talking about how to eradicate slavery once and for all instead of blaming one country as if it were the only country in existence that has ever been involved in slavery? 

The truth of the matter is that if we stop pointing our finger long enough to take an honest look at world events, we would agree with Sister Ummizba and start hating actions instead of nations.  Once we start hating the actions and finding way to eradicate the actions, we can get some where.  However, as long as we keep pointing our fingers at nations and whole groups of people, we will continue to see the same problems rising over and over and over again. 

None of us can change the past but we sure can do something today that will help make the future a better place for all people to live.  I, for one, would like to see problems that after 1400 years still exist amongst Muslims and which Allah clearly stated were to be eradicated were finally eradicated.  Allah clearly stated what those problems are and how to eradicate them; problems such as killing our daughters, slavery, racism and the rights of women.  Why can�t we start focusing on what we need to make right instead of ignoring our own responsibilities by focusing on the flaws of others?  If we each would get our own house in order, than all of the homes would be in order and the world would be a far better world in which to live in.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ,

Sister Khadija

Khadija1021 wrote: Brother Shamil, if you are all for compensation/reparations to Africans who are descendant of those who were sold into slavery, then do you agree that all descendents of Africans sold into slavery should be compensated?  What I mean is this, African slavery did not merely take place in the colonial US.  The African slave trade started in 1450 with slaves being sold to South American, and Central American, the Caribbean Islands and Mexico before African slavery came to the colonial US.  In fact, of the 12 million African slaves who successful reached the Americans between 1450 and 1850, only about 7% were sold to the North America (which includes Mexico).  50% was sold into slavery in South American, 40% to the Caribbean Islands and 3% to Central American.  Are you going to push for those other countries to give compensation as well?

I am in favor of reparations for all peoples who have suffered oppression: the Circassians who were deported from Russia in 1864 (and in the process over half of them died), the Roma who are continually discriminated against in Europe, the Hazara who were subjected to genocide by the Pashtuns during the Taliban's reign, etc., etc., etc.

I do push for many of these causes in whatever way I can.

Angela, I noticed that I posted the link to that site at 1:19 and that your reply was posted at 2:18. Now before I came to the conclusion that reparations are necessary I think I read at least 5000 pages of various articles and books. I don't think you can completely formulate an informed position with less than one hour's worth of reading. There are enough articles on the subject just on that site to keep me busy for a couple of days.

At least keep an open mind on the subject and continue to learn about it. Perhaps you will keep your current view, but the issue is sufficiently complex to deserve more than just a brief overview.

Shamil,

The website you posted was biased towards reparations.  How about a site that looks at both angles???  And its easy for you to say that reparations are in order.  You would not be paying the bill. The fact is, NONE of the African Americans alive today were slaves.  They may indure racism in parts of the country, but they were not slaves.

However, the last time the US government paid reparations was to the Japanese american citizens forced into prison camps during WWII.  The money was paid to SURVIVORS.  Not, 150 years later to someone who has not idea what its like to be a slave.

I could read and read and read.  Its not going to change my opinion that just because in 2006, that someone who happens to have the right skin color should get free money for a crime that was not committed against them and I do not feel that others should have to pay that burden since it was not their sin.

Or do you stone the whole family when one person in it commits adultry????? 

Israfil wrote: how did we go from why we dislike U.S to Slavery????

The USA and the entire world as we know it,world not exist if it was not for slavery.

If you want to change that history, you can't. If you want to influence the future, understand this past that you or any of us can't change. The understanding is the important thing!

****

Maybe we should pay all people of color for what has happened to them in the last 50-60 years. Segregation, racial profiling, inability to vote, lynchings, cross burnings, etc, etc, etc...

But even though reparations on this earth are unlikely for all who have suffered, one day we will all have to stand before God and answer for what we have done, and what we have allowed to be done. This is the final truth from which there is no escape.

kenski70 wrote: the US spent 3 million dollars developing an inkpen that would work in zero gravity.The Russians used a pencil. Did we? No we are Americans and we want an inkpen and damn it we're getting an inkpen!!! Thats the kind of people we are.

I thought that was for underwater and that is how the grey lead came about from the russians.

Tim Evans wrote: Israfil wrote: how did we go from why we dislike U.S to Slavery???? The USA and the entire world as we know it,world not exist if it was not for slavery. If you want to change that history, you can't. If you want to influence the future, understand this past that you or any of us can't change. The understanding is the important thing!

True.

You Tim Evans that didn't even answer 100% of what I was implying

There a lot of crimes and sins which take place in the U.S. The kind of life people live there is terrible.

Also, the administration of U.S. is also bad. You know when U.S. attacked Iraq claiming they had weopons of mass destruction. But they found only oil which they wanted to capture. See how false claims U.S. makes.

And now U.S. is targeting Iran claiming that they are making nuclear weopons.

Hence, I don't like U.S.

May Allah give the muslims victory over the disbelieving people. aameen.

Allah hafiz.

salman wrote: There a lot of crimes and sins which take place in the U.S. The kind of life people live there is terrible. Also, the administration of U.S. is also bad. You know when U.S. attacked Iraq claiming they had weopons of mass destruction. But they found only oil which they wanted to capture. See how false claims U.S. makes. And now U.S. is targeting Iran claiming that they are making nuclear weopons. Hence, I don't like U.S. May Allah give the muslims victory over the disbelieving people. aameen. Allah hafiz.

Just to clear up your uninformed opinion, the world thinks Iran is trying to get nukes, not just the US. How about the UN, IAEA, Britain, France and even Russia? Did you forget about all of them oh wait sorry wrong thread. This one is only for bashing the United States, carry on.

Also the US is a great place to live, thats why we have so many immigrants wanting to come here.

ak_m_f wrote: ops154 wrote: Also the US is a great place to live, thats why we have so many immigrants wanting to come here. Drugs are good too because so many people use them numbers mean nothing. just to let you know that US was made by immigrants.

OK, I agree this country was founded by immigrants. I also think some drugs are good (weed) so I guess we are in full agreement here, thanks for the support!!!

ak_m_f wrote: ops154 wrote: ak_m_f wrote: ops154 wrote: Also the US is a great place to live, thats why we have so many immigrants wanting to come here. Drugs are good too because so many people use them numbers mean nothing. just to let you know that US was made by immigrants. OK, I agree this country was founded by immigrants. I also think some drugs are good (weed) so I guess we are in full agreement here, thanks for the support!!! I think you didint got the sarcasm in the post.

  I know what you meant

salman wrote: May Allah give the muslims victory over the disbelieving people. aameen. Allah hafiz.

Since when is the US = disbeliever????  We have Christians, Jews and Muslims......all are People of the Book? 

US Administration = Evil.  I can buy that. 

Bush = Antichrist.  I can by that one too.

American = Disbeliever.  To that I take exception. 

There are many good godfearing people here.  Its this misconception that is breeding hatred of us among the muslims.  Just like the misconception that all muslims are terrorists and want to kill Jews and Christians is causing the average american to hate Islam.

ak_m_f,

Wrong....you are not.  We only ever have two real choices.... 

I would have preferred my mother's suggestion.  She's been asking for a "do over" box on the ballot for years.  That we can say, "BOTH STINK, TRY AGAIN" but we cannot.

Kerry might have been no better but he was the only option some of us had to express our displeasure with Bush.

Besides, there are plenty of brainwashed masses that vote for a specific party and don't really look at the man. 

But, I would not say that the few republicans in my family are bad people.  Misguided, but they go to church, have families and do alot of community service and charity. 

Personally, I think some of the biggest hypocrites are the US Administration lackies here going on about extremists when they can't leave another country alone.  And just as big of hypocrites are the people who are calling for the destruction of the "west" and calling us all disbelievers and then complaining that the West thinks Muslims are EVIL. 

When you start lumping a whole people in a group because of the actions of a few, you lose the whole point of Islam.  Islam states that people are individually responsible for their own sins.  Therefore, you cannot put the sins of the administration on the average amercian that has no control.

We must pay taxes or go to prison.  We vote because if we stop exercising our right to do so, we will loose it all together.  We learned our lesson with Vietnam.  To not blame the soldier who has to go when he's called to go to war.  I had a yellow ribbon on my car the entire time my brother was in the Army.  But I have called for an end to the illegal Iraqi war and I really don't think we belong messing with Iran.

If they want nukes, give them Nukes.  Israel has them....its called MAD, mutually assured destruction. 

Or as others would see it.  Killing two birds with one stone.

Shamil wrote: Hypocrisy. 1. While the United States portrays itself as a land of opportunity for all:

Every person in this country has the same opportunity as anyone else. If you chose not to take advantage of your education or avaialbe work, that is your perogative. SHould I personally teach them and give them a job?

Shamil wrote: a. It has a property taxed based educational system that perpetuates a drastic differential in educational opportunities between the rich and poor.

Americans can live where ever they wish. Each community offers education to the community. It is paid for by living in that community. Renting does not require the renter to pay taxes for education and the children can still attend. There is no discrimination.

Shamil wrote: b. As a result of slavery, an ideology of extreme racism toward African Americans still persists among a significant portion of the population.

Racism is no different here than anywhere else. There are some but not the majority. However, racism as I see it against Isreal seems to be universal amoung Arabs.

Shamil wrote: c. Higher education is beyond the reach of the lower classes, thus perpetuating both the class and racial disparity.

Higher education is avaiable to everyone provided you finish your prior schooling. If not there are millions of job opportunities.

Shamil wrote: d.African Americans are dramatically overrepresented in the prison system due to the lack of opportunities resulting from (a) and (c) and a general bias against African Americans resulting from (b).

African American culture is historical and is handed down through generations within the African Ameircan community. Because our system allows them to live without work and the government pays them for not working and payes them for having babies, why would they work when they can live for free off the government? This is not all African Americans. Many who do not finish their education, hence revert to crime. We cannot force people to learn here.

Shamil wrote: 2. While the United States claims to promote democracy and freedom:

This is more about the promotion of human rights and tolerence.

Both bring freedom and some form democracy. We understand that many countries don't wish for American Deomcracy just democracy which allows for choice and not dictation.

Shamil wrote: a. The nation itself was created from land stolen from other people against whom the US government committed genocide and whom the government refuses to compensate for these genocidal acts.

Again, American Indians have the same opportunities as anyone else. As an American Indian, I have to say that his is so. I do not live on a reservation nor do I need to. American Indians have more rights that other Americans.

Shamil wrote: b. The nation's wealth is in great part due to the use of slaves, whom the government refuses to compensate for their enslavement and their continued underprivileged status.

Slavery is dead in America. Those slaves and their owners are all dead. There is no way to compensate the dead.

Shamil wrote: c. The US has overthrown numerous democratically elected governments or contributed to their overthrow, and assisted dictators who oppress and kill their citizenry: Iran, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, for example.

And where are those countires today?

Shamil wrote: d. The US is currently engaged in a series of wars against Middle Eastern regimes under the guise of "democratization" with the intention of gaining control of the vast petroleum resources there to cripple its primary competitors, Russia and China.

Not so. We have oil here and don't need ANY Arab oil. We can and will remove ourselves from that depedancy. In the past, the Arab nations relied on American dollars for their sale of oil. That is fast becoming history. Hopefully one day, America will no longer buy Arab oil. Then there will be no excuses.

Shamil wrote: I dislike many other countries even more than the United States, for different reasons.

Tolerence is a virture my friend

USA wrote..

African American culture is historical and is handed down through generations within the African Ameircan community. Because our system allows them to live without work and the government pays them for not working and payes them for having babies, why would they work when they can live for free off the government? This is not all African Americans. Many who do not finish their education, hence revert to crime. We cannot force people to learn here.

It is good you do not think there is a bias here in the states..as you do not have to be on the loosing end of it. Racism is alive here in the states. Then again unless you've been discrimated against you tend not to see it. Then again people won't tell you as they know you won't listen.  

You wrote...

Every person in this country has the same opportunity as anyone else. If you chose not to take advantage of your education or avaialbe work, that is your perogative. SHould I personally teach them and give them a job?

This is not true at all. My favorite is the people in my city.. which is predominantly nonwhite.. some areas do not even have grocery stores.. you imagine being poor with little access to healthy food? Kids have a hard time learning when not eating fresh fruits and vegetables...  

Americans can live where ever they wish. Each community offers education to the community. It is paid for by living in that community. Renting does not require the renter to pay taxes for education and the children can still attend. There is no discrimination.

No they cannot.. you may think they can.. but the subtle discimination that happens is not something you or I shall ever see.

My being 'white' gives me access to tons of places that may not be to people who are 'nonwhite'.

Again, American Indians have the same opportunities as anyone else. As an American Indian, I have to say that his is so. I do not live on a reservation nor do I need to. American Indians have more rights that other Americans.

More rights?? If that were so then everyone would be trying to be them.   maybe you should go out west and see how Native Americans are treated.. then again you probably would not see that.. people don't often act in a certain away with 'strangers' around.

Iran, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua And where are those countires today?

Still there..

Racism is no different here than anywhere else. There are some but not the majority. However, racism as I see it against Isreal seems to be universal amoung Arabs.

You are mixing up terminology.. Many people are not supportive of the state of Israel as it was founded and continues to exploit the situation.  DId you know that in Israel you must be Jewish to live/own 97% of the land there. This certainly limits the rights of Arab-Israelis. For a supposedly  'democratic' values it has a funny way of showing them.

Discrimination of different forms exists all over. Alls you need to ask people if they would marry someone if they were black or want their child to marry a black person you'd get all kinds of answers. Lots of excuses.. or would you send you kids to an all black school... amazing what people will tell you.

Duende wrote: Israfil, read my Letter to America and you'll have a good idea as to why Europeans are currently deep into hating America. USA1 wrote: Not so. We have oil here and don't need ANY Arab oil. We can and will remove ourselves from that depedancy. In the past, the Arab nations relied on American dollars for their sale of oil. That is fast becoming history. Hopefully one day, America will no longer buy Arab oil. Then there will be no excuses." Can't help laughing at your ignorance, which is no surprise since no mainstream US media is telling you any real information. The US oil production peaked famously in the 1970s, since then you are net importers and yet still the world's number one consumers. You have NO CHOICE but to buy from other oil producing countries. Currently, the world oil production is barely keeping up with demand, not just from your country but every developed and developing country. Your administration's stated goal is to secure oil supply for itself, wherever it may be, and by any means. And just to add more interest, Iraq began trading its oil in Euros and was promptly invaded. Iran proposes to establish its own oil market (Bourse) this month, and also sell in Euros. And we wonder why the administration has pulled out all the stops painting Iran as an immediate threat recently?

Liar.

It sounds like you want America to be dependant on Arab oil. I thought you don't want that.

Anyway, all we have to do is build new refineries and we are off Arab oil. It won't be cheaper and we know it. We really don't care as we just want off the dependancy of Arab oil. Whether we get it from Canada or our own oil (Which we have enough of) we will remove ourselves from being the hostage of Arab oil.

Hayfa wrote: USA wrote.. African American culture is historical and is handed down through generations within the African Ameircan community. Because our system allows them to live without work and the government pays them for not working and payes them for having babies, why would they work when they can live for free off the government? This is not all African Americans. Many who do not finish their education, hence revert to crime. We cannot force people to learn here. It is good you do not think there is a bias here in the states..as you do not have to be on the loosing end of it. Racism is alive here in the states. Then again unless you've been discrimated against you tend not to see it. Then again people won't tell you as they know you won't listen.   You wrote... Every person in this country has the same opportunity as anyone else. If you chose not to take advantage of your education or avaialbe work, that is your perogative. SHould I personally teach them and give them a job? This is not true at all. My favorite is the people in my city.. which is predominantly nonwhite.. some areas do not even have grocery stores.. you imagine being poor with little access to healthy food? Kids have a hard time learning when not eating fresh fruits and vegetables...   Americans can live where ever they wish. Each community offers education to the community. It is paid for by living in that community. Renting does not require the renter to pay taxes for education and the children can still attend. There is no discrimination. No they cannot.. you may think they can.. but the subtle discimination that happens is not something you or I shall ever see. My being 'white' gives me access to tons of places that may not be to people who are 'nonwhite'. Again, American Indians have the same opportunities as anyone else. As an American Indian, I have to say that his is so. I do not live on a reservation nor do I need to. American Indians have more rights that other Americans. More rights?? If that were so then everyone would be trying to be them.   maybe you should go out west and see how Native Americans are treated.. then again you probably would not see that.. people don't often act in a certain away with 'strangers' around. Iran, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua And where are those countires today? Still there.. Racism is no different here than anywhere else. There are some but not the majority. However, racism as I see it against Isreal seems to be universal amoung Arabs. You are mixing up terminology.. Many people are not supportive of the state of Israel as it was founded and continues to exploit the situation.  DId you know that in Israel you must be Jewish to live/own 97% of the land there. This certainly limits the rights of Arab-Israelis. For a supposedly  'democratic' values it has a funny way of showing them. Discrimination of different forms exists all over. Alls you need to ask people if they would marry someone if they were black or want their child to marry a black person you'd get all kinds of answers. Lots of excuses.. or would you send you kids to an all black school... amazing what people will tell you.

I am born and raised here. This is NOT an opinion. I have lived in many parts of this country and it is all the same.

Yes there is racism, but it doesn't control our culture.

So hating Jews isn't racism? LOL

Here's an idea, USA1, lets stop looking at oil all together.  It pollutes and its inefficient.

We need to move towards solar, hydro and geothermal power sources. 

But, as Americans we love our cars.  Everytime I pass an SUV, I feel like screaming "terrorist". 

Angela wrote: Here's an idea, USA1, lets stop looking at oil all together.  It pollutes and its inefficient. We need to move towards solar, hydro and geothermal power sources.  But, as Americans we love our cars.  Everytime I pass an SUV, I feel like screaming "terrorist".

I agree. There is a lot that can be done. I am still waiting for the two words from our leaders that would reduce our dependance.

"Manditory conservation".

Wind power works very but as Ted Kennedy says, "Not in my neighborhood".

USA1 wrote: [/QU

Racism is no different here than anywhere else. 

[/QUOTE]

African American culture is historical and is handed down through generations within the African Ameircan community. Because our system allows them to live without work and the government pays them for not working and payes them for having babies, why would they work when they can live for free off the government? This is not all African Americans. Many who do not finish their education, hence revert to crime. We cannot force people to learn here.

[/QUOTE]

My mouth is still hanging open after reading this... This is the very definition of racism. African American welfare babies and criminals....

Apparently we can't force people to have open minds and shut mouths here either....

Mishmish wrote: USA1 wrote: Racism is no different here than anywhere else.

African American culture is historical and is handed down through generations within the African Ameircan community. Because our system allows them to live without work and the government pays them for not working and payes them for having babies, why would they work when they can live for free off the government? This is not all African Americans. Many who do not finish their education, hence revert to crime. We cannot force people to learn here.

[/QUOTE]

My mouth is still hanging open after reading this... This is the very definition of racism. African American welfare babies and criminals....

Apparently we can't force people to have open minds and shut mouths here either....

[/QUOTE]

You can close your mouth now.

We were talkig about African Americans on this thread. I don't mean to imply that this doesn't exist in the white or hispanic communities. It does and it is the same. Why work if the government will pay me not to? Why not have more babies if the government will give me more money?

USA1: I guess according to you the only good American is an Israeli loving white American. You and people like you are what's wrong with this country.

If you REALLY believe that all things are equal in this country, go live in the inner city of any large city and send your child to the public schools there. When your child graduates and still can't read, then we'll talk....

The U.S. has the highest domestic crime rate of any country in the world.

There were 414,580 live births for girls 15-19 years old in 2003, over 1,000,000 became pregnant. 

There are as many as 2.5 million homeless and indigent people in this country.

Millions of people cannot even afford to go to a doctor, there are millions of people allowed to die every year from cancer and other diseases because they have no insurance and do not have enough money to pay for their own care. What the heck is that all about?

An estimated half million children are in the foster care system in this country, an estimated 1,000,000 go missing every year.

The U.S is one of the largest importers and exporters of child pornography, on the 16th of this month a huge internet pornography ring, in which toddlers were assaulted and tortured live on the internet, was busted, the perpetrators were from the U.S., Canada, Australia, and the U.K.. All good "western, Christian" societies.

Every 2 1/2 minutes there is an attempted rape or sexual assault in this country. The Justice Department estimates that 1 in 6 victims are under the age of 12.

There are approximately 1,370,000 abortions annually in the U.S..

There was an estimated 5.2 million violent crimes in the U.S. in 2004.

Of the 32.8 million people in the U.S. that suffer from "food insecurity" (a phrase used to describe lack of access to food to meet basic needs) 4.4 million were classified as "hungry" (chronic and mild starvation that results in physical and mental changes). This phenomenon is increasing, with more children going hungry.

All of this is happening in OUR country, the United States of America, which is supposed to be the most advanced, civilized country in the the world. The "Superpower". Which part of this civilization are we attempting to spread around the globe?

Assalamu Alaikum:

I am watching Oprah and the show is titled: Inside the Lives of America's Poor

One of the most touching moments was when Gayle King asked one woman what was the most hurtful about being poor in this country and she answered that it's the way people ignore you. They act like you are invisible.

We are quickly becoming a very invisible nation. How can this happen here, when CEOs of large corporations make millions of dollars yearly that they don't even have to pay taxes on?

Here is what Bush and his administration are doing while more and more Americans fall below the poverty line:

Last month, President Bush announced his proposal for the next federal budget. It's another "reverse Robin Hood," disaster that robs from the poor, gives to the rich and explodes the deficit. Bush is even trying to sneak through his old proposal to privatize social security and cut benefits!

Right now, the House of Representatives is drafting its own budget and deciding whether to accept the President's proposal. The final decision will come down to just a handful of swing Republicans.  So today, we're trying a new technique�we're going straight to the voters in these key districts to ask them, person to person, to call their representative and oppose Bush's budget.

We've set up a simple online system where you can write a personal letter to an independent or Democratic voter, tell them why this budget is important, and even include their representative's phone number.  If you take a minute to write your letter online, we'll print it and mail it for you right away. Just click below to get started:

http://political.moveon.org/letters/?id=7069-5874814-I9apJMJ.7Zgltr2vLexBVQ&t=2 - http://political.moveon.org/letters/?id=7069-5874814-I9apJMJ .7Zgltr2vLexBVQ&t=2

You don't have to be any kind of expert to write one of these letters�we're all just citizens reaching out to other folks to show them what's at stake, and how they can make a difference.

We call it a "reverse Robin Hood" budget because it takes Bush's habit of robbing from the poor and middle class to pay back his wealthy supporters to new heights. Here's some of the highlights of how Bush's plan would effect us all:¹

• Social Security: Bush is trying to use the budget to sneak through his old $700 billion dollar plan to privatize Social Security² and immediately slash benefits by $6.3 billion dollars.³
• Health Care: Bush would slash Medicaid by $13.7 billion over 5 years, abandoning millions of young, elderly, poor and disabled Americans who depend on Medicaid as their health care option of last resort.
• Education: Bush is pushing for the largest cut in the history of the Department of Education, and to completely eliminate the Perkins loan, a vital program for college students in need.⁴
• Child care: Bush wants to kick 400,000 children out of child care programs for low income working families.
• Budget busting tax breaks for the rich: Bush's budget would only continue to explode the deficit by giving away over $900 billion dollars to richest 1% of the population over 10 years.
• Deeper debt: Bush wants to give so much away to millionaires that even after his service cuts the annual deficit would grow by almost $200 billion dollars

Opposing this budget is also a key to victory in 2006. The reverse Robin Hood approach is deeply unpopular once it's understood. By reaching out directly to voters in swing districts, we're helping to hold these vulnerable Republican representatives accountable in November. We can win this budget fight, but to make the positive changes we really believe in we first need new leadership in Washington�this will help us get there.

Decisions about the federal budget effect all of us more than perhaps anything else Congress does�we're literally all in this one together. So let's take this chance to reach out to our fellow voters in key Congressional districts and do what MoveOn members have always done best�inspire others to speak out and make our Democracy better.

If you write your letter online today, we'll print it and mail it right away. It just takes a minute, at:

http://political.moveon.org/letters/?id=7069-5874814-I9apJMJ.7Zgltr2vLexBVQ&t=3 - http://political.moveon.org/letters/?id=7069-5874814-I9apJMJ .7Zgltr2vLexBVQ&t=3

Thanks for all that you do,

�Ben, Adam, Marika, Eli and the whole MoveOn.org Political Action team
  Monday, March 20, 2006

p.s. If you're able kick in a few bucks to help us pay for postage, it would help a lot. You can donate online, at:

http://political.moveon.org/letters/?id=7069-5874814-I9apJMJ.7Zgltr2vLexBVQ&t=4 - http://political.moveon.org/letters/?id=7069-5874814-I9apJMJ .7Zgltr2vLexBVQ&t=4

Sources:

1. Unless otherwise noted these facts are derived from the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities report entitled, "The President's Budget: A Preliminary Analysis," February 10th 2006
http://www.cbpp.org/2-6-06bud.htm - http://www.cbpp.org/2-6-06bud.htm

2. "Bush's Social Security Slight of Hand," Washington Post February 8, 2006
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=1549 - http://www.moveon.org/r?r=1549

3. "Republican Budget Imposes Special Interest Surtax on Middle-Class Families," Democratic Policy Committee, February 16, 2006
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=1550 - http://www.moveon.org/r?r=1550

4. United States Student Association
http://www.usstudents.org/ - www.usstudents.org

Bismillah,

I agree with Brother Shamil and Sister Mishmish as to why people dislike our country, Brother Israfil.

Although I am told that it is better in other parts of the country, the religious persecution that  my family and I have suffered and witnessed others suffer encourages me to dislike it myself.

One of my blood brothers who is Christian hates America.  He hates being an American although he has never lived anywhere else and isn't likely to.  He despises the government, the bigotry and racism, the hatred of the poor, the removal of father's rights , especially poor fathers, and the absolute majority of brainwashed people who don't know what is going on in the world or even in America itself.

He disclaims his Americanness constantly, adamantly and vehemently.

Good point Colin.

Mishmish wrote: USA1: I guess according to you the only good American is an Israeli loving white American. You and people like you are what's wrong with this country. If you REALLY believe that all things are equal in this country, go live in the inner city of any large city and send your child to the public schools there. When your child graduates and still can't read, then we'll talk.... The U.S. has the highest domestic crime rate of any country in the world. There were 414,580 live births for girls 15-19 years old in 2003, over 1,000,000 became pregnant.  There are as many as 2.5 million homeless and indigent people in this country. Millions of people cannot even afford to go to a doctor, there are millions of people allowed to die every year from cancer and other diseases because they have no insurance and do not have enough money to pay for their own care. What the heck is that all about? An estimated half million children are in the foster care system in this country, an estimated 1,000,000 go missing every year. The U.S is one of the largest importers and exporters of child pornography, on the 16th of this month a huge internet pornography ring, in which toddlers were assaulted and tortured live on the internet, was busted, the perpetrators were from the U.S., Canada, Australia, and the U.K.. All good "western, Christian" societies. Every 2 1/2 minutes there is an attempted rape or sexual assault in this country. The Justice Department estimates that 1 in 6 victims are under the age of 12. There are approximately 1,370,000 abortions annually in the U.S.. There was an estimated 5.2 million violent crimes in the U.S. in 2004. Of the 32.8 million people in the U.S. that suffer from "food insecurity" (a phrase used to describe lack of access to food to meet basic needs) 4.4 million were classified as "hungry" (chronic and mild starvation that results in physical and mental changes). This phenomenon is increasing, with more children going hungry. All of this is happening in OUR country, the United States of America, which is supposed to be the most advanced, civilized country in the the world. The "Superpower". Which part of this civilization are we attempting to spread around the globe?

I think you better re-check your figures.

1 million missing children? Come on.....

Duende wrote: aaaah, USA1 you call me a liar?    And here's some other 'lies' for you.From the web www.peakoil.com: In the US for example, oil production grew steadily until 1970 and declined thereafter, regardless of market price or improved technologies.      �      The amount of oil discovered in the US has dropped since the late 1930s.      �      40 years later, US oil production had peaked, and has fallen ever since. World discovery of oil peaked in the 1960s, and has declined since then. If the 40 year cycle seen in the US holds true for world oil production, that puts global peak oil production, right about now; after which oil becomes less available, and more expensive. From R.Heinberg www.museletter.com: Yet while both the US and Russia were well endowed by nature, both have passed their petroleum production peaks (which occurred in 1970 and 1987, respectively). Russia remains a net oil exporter because its consumption levels are low, but the US is increasingly dependent on imports of both oil and natural gas. Roughly three-quarters of the world's crucial remaining petroleum reserves lie within the borders of predominantly Muslim nations of the Middle East and Central Asia - nations that, for historical, geographic, and political reasons, were unable to develop large-scale industrial-military economies of their own and that have, throughout the past century, mainly served as pawns of the Great Powers (Britain, the US, and the former USSR). In recent decades, these predominantly Muslim oil-rich nations have pooled their interests in a cartel, the Organization of Oil Exporting Countries (OPEC). From W.Clarke, author of Petrodollar Warfare Newsociety publishers: Of course Cheney knows all about Peak Oil. He seems to have been brought into the Bush administration to specifically do something about it. In Feb 2001 his frist assignment was to develop a National Energy Plan Development Group (NEPDG). Michael Klare, an international expert on natural resource conflict and author of Resource Wars and Blood for Oil, provided the following analysis of the NEPDG report. The report made three key points about US energy challenges between 2000 and 2020: Quote: � The United States must satisfy an ever-increasing share of its oil demand with imported supplies. (Note: By 2020, daily US imports will total nearly 17 million barrels per day, over 65 percent of consumption, up from 10 m/bl/d, or 53 percent in 2000.) � The United States cannot depend exclusively on traditional sources of supply like Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and Canada. It will also have to obtain substantial imports from new sources, such as the Caspian states, Russia, and West Africa. � The United States cannot rely on market forces alone to gain access to these added supplies, but will also require a significant effort on the part of government officials to overcome foreign resistance to the outward reach of American energy companies. Instead of advocating various policies to reduce America�s consumption of oil, either through conservation, improvements in efficiency, or the development of large-scale alterative energy sources, the 2001 Bush/Cheney energy policy implicitly assumed the US will continue to consume what is almost universally regarded as excessive oil consumption. According to Klare this was a �fateful decision.� It means the US must find a way to increase oil imports from 11 mb/ d to 18.5 mb/d by 2020. Klare noted, �Securing that increment of imported oil � the equivalent of total current oil consumption by China and India combined � has driven an integrated US oil-military strategy ever since.� The 2001 NEPDG energy plan obliquely inferred that the primary role of the US military in the beginning decades of the 21st century will be to �secure� physical control of the world�s largest hydrocarbon reserves. According to Klare�s book, Blood and Oil, a top-secret document dated February 3, 2001, directed the �NSC [National Security Council] staff to cooperate with the NEPDG in assessing the military applications of the energy plan.� What other country uses "energy policy" and "military applications" in the same breath? W.Clarke, author of Petrodollar Warfare Newsociety publishers Elsewhere on these sites you'll find information to inform you as to why simply building more refineries can't solve the problem since they take a minimum 5 years just to build, let alone go onstream. Meanwhile, all that oil is just dribbling through your sticky fingers....

Manditory Conservation!

Build Refineries. I have no problem paying $5.00 for gallon of fuel is it doesn't come from Arab oil.

This isn't a cost issue for me. It's about removing the gun from our head held there by Arab countries.

I totally disagree with what colin said.

I would like to mention one thing and that is the ' prisoner abuse ' which the americans have done to th Iraqi prisoners.

This is one of the main why I don't like the U.S.

The U.S. shows its negative points much more than the positive points. It is the negative points of U.S. which are more evident to the people. I am also not sure if U.S. really has any positive points to show.

salman wrote: I totally disagree with what colin said.

Sorry Salman, you are not allowed to totally disagree with me..Please read the forum guidelines particularly paragraph No 4345 which clearly states that: "Total disagreement with Colin is deemed to constitute an infringement of forum rules and will not be tolerated."

The U.S. shows its negative points much more than the positive points.

This depends on how you wish to percieve the country as a whole. It's easy to accentuate the negative if that's what you want to do.

It is the negative points of U.S. which are more evident to the people.

See above.

I am also not sure if U.S. really has any positive points to show.

I bet you are using US technology/software to access this forum. So without even thinking much I've pointed out one little positive...unless of course you are using the Russian counterfeit operating system: Vindows PX.

USA1: all you have to do is do an internet search for missing children, the information is there for anyone to access...

I think the reason so many people have a negative image of the U.S. is because our government is so hypocritical. They consistently label our country as the moral watchdog of the world, yet we have become no better than those we are supposed to be guarding against. How can G.W. continue to stand up and say that saddam was an evil tyrant when we are commiting the very same atrocities? How can our government say that certain countries should not be allowed into the U.N. or Human Rights groups when our country is doing the same that they do? It is very hard to state that you are morally superior when you are torturing people and killing babies, and backing friendly regimes that do so.

Almost 3000 people were killed on 9-11. Our country has killed perhaps 100 times that many since then. We will never really know the number because our government does not deem it important to keep a body count of those killed in the wars. Most of these people are Iraqis, who had absolutely nothing to do with 9-11.

Do you guys not see the hypocrisy? Saddam Hussein is being tried for war crimes for people who were tortured and killed during his leadership. He probably never lifted a finger to personally kill them, but because he was the leader he is held guilty. G.W. Bush is the president of the occupying force, a force which has tortured and killed, yet he denies any knowledge of what is going on, and that's that. Why is Saddam guilty of what occured on HIS watch, but Bush is not guilty for what is occuring today on HIS watch. In fact, he and his whole administration are so bloody incompetent that they don't EVEN KNOW that this is going on! They have no idea that people are being tortured, killed, flown to secret prisons around the world on U.S. planes to be tortured and killed... 20 low ranking soldiers from Hicksville, USA have taken it upon themselves to fly these prisoners to Poland to be tortured, and they are so clever that they have bamboozled the whole USA government!

I posted the stats on this country because I truly believe that before you can go forth and preach to the unwashed heathens that your way is the better, righteous way, you have to be able to prove it. We can't even take care of our own citizens, what makes us think we can rule the world? And make no mistake, that was actually G.W. on the prow of the Titanic yelling that he is king of the world...

"According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) there were 840,279 missing-person entries (adults and juveniles) in the year 2001.  A review of NCIC data shows that that approximately 85� 90 percent of those entries were juveniles. Thus, in approximately 725,000 cases (or on average 2,000 per day) the disappearance of a child was serious enough that a parent called law enforcement and the law-enforcement agency took a report and entered it into NCIC."

"The U.S. Department of Justice estimates nearly 800,000 children are reported missing annually -- more than 2,000 each day. One of six children featured in NCMEC's nationwide photo-distribution network is found directly by people who see the photographs and then contact authorities."

"To date two such studies have been completed. The first National Incidence Studies of Missing, Abducted, Runaway, and Thrownaway Children (NISMART-1) was released in 1990, and the second, known as NISMART-2, was released in October 2002. According to NISMART-2 research, which studied the year 1999, an estimated 797,500 children were reported missing; 58,200 children were abducted by nonfamily members; 115 children were the victims of the most serious, long-term nonfamily abductions called "stereotypical kidnappings"; and 203,900 children were the victims of family abductions."

Bismillah,

Just as all Americans are bunched together under the flag which now
represents the country of torture tactics and disregard for
international law, so all Muslims are bunched together under the
label �terrorist�, or a best �possible terrorist.

This isn't right because I am a Muslim American.  And my brother is a Christian American who hates the government and the way Muslims are treated in places like Iraq and Afganistan.

Three questions I have to ask you guys those of you who oppose the U.S or perhaps for clarity the U.S government

1) Do you live in the U.S if so why are you here if the government is so abhorrent?

2) What computer do you have? Meaning what type what name brand

3) What have you done to change the state of the United States?

Last question is very important because of all things that is said here in opposition of the U.S what have you, as a person done to change that? If nothing is your answer then why whine about what the United States done. As for myself I am currently doing my part. So if you respond as nothing then obviousl whinning about the U.S and its bombs will not save people do something...

Bismillah,

1) I was born here and I hate the government and many other Americans feel the same way.  It's the land i was born on, and it's the passport I have.  What do you want me to do, jump in the ocean?

2) I have American or Japanese or Taiwanese computers.

3) I have no idea what I've done to change the US.  Maybe some of these are what you mean:  I became Muslim after being Christian.  I'm raising a family.  I write letters to the editor and congressmen, which they ignore.  I am currently undergoing a battle at the school fighting discrimination and just plain foolishness and power mongering. I contribute here at IC.

And why do you consider complaining whining?  I have a right to complain, and YOU asked why people hate the US.  Didn't you want an answer?

Here is my contribution to the discussion, from the irascible and controversial (Italian aristocrat) Julius Evola:

�[T]he great majority of Americans could be said to represent a refutation on a large scale of the Cartesian principle, �Cogito ergo sum ["I think, therefore I am"]�; they �do not think and are.�

Serv

Ref:  Evola, Julius, Revolt Against the Modern World, Edizioni Mediterranee-Roma 1969, Translation copyright 1995 Inner Traditions International, ISBN 0-89281-506-X, p. 355

Salaa

Sr. Herjihad the problem is not expressing your opinion the problem are the countless arguments here that are reptative. The comments however are general. Many tend to say "I dislike the U.S" now can we make a distinction here between the United States Government or the United States as a whole. My thing is if we find something so abhorrent why do we find ourselves indulge in it? Rather, we should try to come up with solutions rather than constantly posting forums talking against the States.....

I for one dont support the Bush administration as well as the Republican party, however that is ideal

Assalamu Alaikum:

1. I was born in the U.S. and I have every right to voice my opinion of the current government and the direction my country is taking.

2. I have a Hewlett Packard, though what that has to do with my government I have no idea....

3. I am very politically active because I believe it is our duty as Muslims and humans to speak out and try to stop evil, corruption, and hypocrisy where ever and when ever we can. I have even posted links to numerous causes and various organizations to help make it easy for anyone who would care to join me. But even if I am a voice of one, at least it is my voice and I will use it. 

Mishmish let me clue you in....Since American business companies have companies that do busniess in America and in the world they are taxed...However I'm not sure if there is a special kind of taxed for busniess that generate billions of dollars each year but they are taxed...Those tax dollars like all others are circulated through our government and as you may well know those dollars goes to various fundings, I'm sure from there you can figure out how buying American products would take your money....also if you have a job here and pay state and federal tax the same thing applies.....

Everyone I agree has every right to voice their opinion but if the opinion because repitious especially here, then there is no point in making statements unless there is some action involved which propels your view...I.e writing to your local congressman e.t.c. However marches are good as well as doing things in your community to get your voice heard. Again let us making distinctions here between our dislike for our government and making statements which sounds like a generalization

I bet you are using US technology/software to access this forum. So without even thinking much I've pointed out one little positive...unless of course you are using the Russian counterfeit operating system: Vindows PX.

In the above post

the 1st paragraph was said by colin.

in reply i have quoted the 2nd para.

yes i absolutely agree with firewall3.

finally somebody is on my side on this issue.

Quoting myself:

I bet you are using US technology/software to access this forum. So without even thinking much I've pointed out one little positive...unless of course you are using the Russian counterfeit operating system: Vindows PX.

salman wrote: QUOTE] Money, science, technology, these are the positive points of U.S. Where is the character, where are the morals?

Salman, I think you are making the mistake of painting all Americans with the same brush. Millions of ordinary Americans would probably claim to have strong morals and character. Don't you think that the US navy's post-tsunami life saving efforts in Aceh province, coupled with millions of dollars raised by American citizens to help the predominantly Muslim victims of the tsunami constitute a moral or positive side to America?  As I have said, America (Like any other nation) has many negative aspects but it also has many positives. If you wish to focus soley on the negatives, you will not get an accurate picture of America or the American people. This applies to any other nation or even religious grouping, including Muslims.

I still don't agree with you colin.

You say that ordinary Americans have character and morals.

I don't believe what you say.

In your country, gay marriages have been made legal, prostitution has been made legal, and there are many other things that are considered crimes in different parts of the world, have been made legal in your country for ordinary people.

Women sit nude on the beaches.

All this does constitute to bad morals and bad character.

salman wrote: I still don't agree with you colin. You say that ordinary Americans have character and morals. I don't believe what you say. In your country, gay marriages have been made legal, prostitution has been made legal, and there are many other things that are considered crimes in different parts of the world, have been made legal in your country for ordinary people. Women sit nude on the beaches. All this does constitute to bad morals and bad character.

India has open corruption, particularly amongst the police and customs officials. I have been unlucky enough to experience this on several occasions on my travels to India. I have been there three times and the vast majority of the Indians I have met have been good people. I don't make the silly mistake you do and blame the population as a whole for the actions of a relative few.

Bismillah,

Brother Salman,

You must understand that I am Muslim and American.  My family has been in this country for hundreds of years. Many ordinary people like many in my family have strong moral codes we live by here in America.

Gay relationships are still considered taboo and not accepted openly by most small town folks.

I have never heard of anyone going nude on our beaches.  If they did, they would be fined for it.

Families have come to accept children out of wedlock, but repentence and church-going are often encouraged and required by family members.  People who don't publicly acknowledge that they shouldn't have sinned get shunned by the God-fearing crowd.

Personally, my grandmother and aunts are pious, devout, clean-living people and I will take offense if you continue to insult my family.  I know hundreds of women dedicated to their families upbringing and many of them work to support their homes and work to support the family because they have to.

So, Israfil's topic of Why do you dislike America is different than your topic of why you incorrectly think that American people have no morals.

salman wrote: I still don't agree with you colin. You say that ordinary Americans have character and morals. I don't believe what you say. In your country, gay marriages have been made legal, prostitution has been made legal, and there are many other things that are considered crimes in different parts of the world, have been made legal in your country for ordinary people. Women sit nude on the beaches. All this does constitute to bad morals and bad character.

  You are sadly mistaken. Where did you learn any of this? The post above is very accurate of ordinary americans. I wouldn't mind if you could point out where these beaches are because I sure haven't found them yet. Can you name me one city or state that gay marriage is legal? Of the cities that did legalize it, courts over-ruled them and it's still against the law. How about anywhere that has legal prostitution? I bet you're thinking of Vegas but again you are wrong as it is actually illegal there as well. Most people in America don't even know that.

The perception of America by many in the middle-east is as misunderstood as our perception of the middle-east. Both need to be educated by unbiased teachings. Unfortuatly, that is harder to do than to say.

American society is built from ALL different cultural experiences and melding them together results in what our combine cultures reflect.

The beautiful thing is that, unlike other countries, you are free to leave and find some place that suits your ideals. America is so large that there are millions of cummunities around the country that are guided by different ideals. You don't have to go to the nude beach or go to a brothel, it's what we call freedom of choice.

People move to America because of this culture not to change it.

Assalamu Alaikum:

Well, Brother Israfil asked why don't we like America? Now he should ask why we do...

Israfil wrote: Mishmish let me clue you in....Since American business companies have companies that do busniess in America and in the world they are taxed...However I'm not sure if there is a special kind of taxed for busniess that generate billions of dollars each year but they are taxed...Those tax dollars like all others are circulated through our government and as you may well know those dollars goes to various fundings, I'm sure from there you can figure out how buying American products would take your money....also if you have a job here and pay state and federal tax the same thing applies..... Everyone I agree has every right to voice their opinion but if the opinion because repitious especially here, then there is no point in making statements unless there is some action involved which propels your view...I.e writing to your local congressman e.t.c. However marches are good as well as doing things in your community to get your voice heard. Again let us making distinctions here between our dislike for our government and making statements which sounds like a generalization

Assalamu Alaikum Brother:

Thank you for the economics lesson. To be honest, I had been to college and was already working and paying taxes before you were born.

Of course, back then we didn't really understand how the "paying taxes" thing worked, we just did it because we had to. Then we got tired of the British redcoats and decided that the colonies needed to be independent. I did hear something about "no taxation without representation" a few times....but you take this kind of talk with a grain of salt.

Wa Alkaikum Salaam,

Mishmish  Thank you...

Salman, again judging the United States based on a few individuals as you mention who are homosexual and marry, or those who stride across nude beaches while themselves being nude are not reflections on our society as a whole. First off there is no nude beaches in the United States. It is against the law to exposed your genital parts in front of people especially on beaches. Perhaps you have mistaken us for Italy? In fact in California it is in fact against the law and is considered "lewd conduct" which if we catch them they will not only be detained but they pay a fine as well as register as a "sex offender."

As far as gay marriages well, what country doesn't have people who are homosexual? We have some laws to protect this minority yes, but that is what this country stands for, because they are the minority they deserve the same civil right as others because they human beings and are sentient beings much like us who deserve these inalienable rights.

Duende read every comment I made closely I never said I was against my government I'm just against this administration. I'm a registered Democrat so of course I'm going to be against a more Republican dominated adiministration so please read carefully.

Duende wrote: So, Israfil, if you are not against your government, how can you be against this administration? They are one and the same thing at the moment. Impeach Bush does not mean you are acting against a democratically elected government (although many would argue this), it means you are against the actions of this particular resident in the White House, does it not? if you are a democrat, you have all the more reason to impeach Dubya. He is a liar.

What was the lie? Enquiring minds would like to know.

USA1 wrote: What was the lie? Enquiring minds would like to know.

Bush's statements about WMDs in Iraq, in chronological order, were:

United Nations Address
September 12, 2002

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

Radio Address
October 5, 2002

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
October 7, 2002

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

State of the Union Address
January 28, 2003

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Address to the Nation
March 17, 2003

Bush on Katrina:

I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees

Mishmish wrote: USA1 wrote: What was the lie? Enquiring minds would like to know. Bush's statements about WMDs in Iraq, in chronological order, were: United Nations Address September 12, 2002 "Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons." "We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." Radio Address October 5, 2002 "The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons." "We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas." "We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States." "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." Cincinnati, Ohio Speech October 7, 2002 "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." State of the Union Address January 28, 2003 "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." Address to the Nation March 17, 2003 Bush on Katrina: I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees George W Bush, speaking after the disaster     Statements by Bush about Iraq:     "Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers."�President Bush, remarks to 2003 Republican National Committee Presidential Gala, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031008-9.html - Oct. 8, 2003     "One thing is for certain: There won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms."�Bush, press availability in Monterrey, Mexico, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040112-7.html - Jan. 12, 2004     "Saddam Hussein now sits in a prison cell, and Iraqi men and women are no longer carried to torture chambers and rape rooms �"�Bush, remarks on "Winston Churchill and the War on Terror," http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040204-4.html - Feb. 4, 2004     "Every woman in Iraq is better off because the rape rooms and torture chambers of Saddam Hussein are forever closed."�Bush, remarks on "Efforts to Globally Promote Women's Human Rights," http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/03/20040312-5.html - March 12, 2004     "Our military is � performing brilliantly. See, the transition from torture chambers and rape rooms and mass graves and fear of authority is a tough transition. And they're doing the good work of keeping this country stabilized as a political process unfolds."�Bush, remarks on "Tax Relief and the Economy," Iowa, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040415-7.html - April 15, 2004     "We're facing supporters of the outlaw cleric, remnants of Saddam's regime that are still bitter that they don't have the position to run the torture chambers and rape rooms. � They will fail because they do not speak for the vast majority of Iraqis who do not want to replace one tyrant with another. They will fail because the will of our coalition is strong. They will fail because America leads a coalition full of the finest military men and women in the world."�Bush, remarks on the USA Patriot Act, Pennsylvania, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-3.html - April 19, 2004   "We acted, and there are no longer mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms in Iraq."�Bush, remarks at Victory 2004 Reception, Florida, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040423-14.html - April 23, 2004     "A year ago, I did give the speech from the carrier, saying that we had achieved an important objective, that we'd accomplished a mission, which was the removal of Saddam Hussein. And as a result, there are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq."�Bush, remarks in the Rose Garden, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040430-2.html - April 30, 2004     "Because we acted, torture rooms are closed, rape rooms no longer exist, mass graves are no longer a possibility in Iraq."�Bush, remarks at "Ask President Bush" event, Michigan, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040503-6.html - May 3, 2004     Bush statements on rendition:   �torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture.�     Do I need continue?

Thanks for your point of view. I need time to review and respond.

USA1 wrote: Duende wrote: So, Israfil, if you are not against your government, how can you be against this administration? They are one and the same thing at the moment. Impeach Bush does not mean you are acting against a democratically elected government (although many would argue this), it means you are against the actions of this particular resident in the White House, does it not? if you are a democrat, you have all the more reason to impeach Dubya. He is a liar. What was the lie? Enquiring minds would like to know.

Bush's statements about WMDs in Iraq, in chronological order, were:

United Nations Address
September 12, 2002

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

Radio Address
October 5, 2002

You think the �Sources� are Bush alone? He is listening to what Intel he has. Afterall, who could really take Saddam seriously?

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

Fact - This was true and he did use them. Except for nukes, which we have found that he was still looking to reconstitute them after the heat was off.

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

Fact � This was true. He claimed to have destroyed them but would give no indication of where this happened. The destruction location would be detectible if it was true. That was an easy thing for Saddam to do, had he wanted to prevent a war. He did not.

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

�We�ve� is not just Bush. I have seen the evidence of these aerial vehicles. They did exist.

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
October 7, 2002

Fact - This has been proven through his own documentation that he still wished to do this. The tubes did exist and are dual use. It�s hard to read the mind of a madman like Saddam to determine what the �other� use would be.

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

State of the Union Address
January 28, 2003

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Address to the Nation
March 17, 2003

Fact � This is also true. One does not just dispose of Sarin or VX Gas without trace evidence. It just doesn�t happen. If he did supposedly destroy them, he could have easily displayed this. He did not. He could have prevented a war all by himself by complying.

Bush on Katrina:

�I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees�

George W Bush, speaking after the disaster

We knew the levees were not capable of withstanding a category 4 hurricane for 50 years.

They had made it though a hundred of them and didn�t break down. There was no reason to believe they would then either. You can spin this anyway you want. 

Statements by Bush about Iraq:

"Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers."�President Bush, remarks to 2003 Republican National Committee Presidential Gala, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031008-9.html - Oct. 8, 2003  

Fact - Iraq is free of Saddam�s rape rooms and torture chambers. Was this OK for you when Saddam did this? I hope not as it is not OK for anyone to do it and that includes our Military.

"One thing is for certain: There won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms."�Bush, press availability in Monterrey, Mexico, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040112-7.html - Jan. 12, 2004  

Fact � He was talking about Saddam. I guess you took this out of context. I hope your weren�t Ok with Saddam doing this as a justification for not going to war.

"Saddam Hussein now sits in a prison cell, and Iraqi men and women are no longer carried to torture chambers and rape rooms �"�Bush, remarks on "Winston Churchill and the War on Terror," http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040204-4.html -  

Fact � He was talking about Saddam. I guess you took this out of context. I hope your weren�t Ok with Saddam doing this as a justification for not going to war.

"Every woman in Iraq is better off because the rape rooms and torture chambers of Saddam Hussein are forever closed."�Bush, remarks on "Efforts to Globally Promote Women's Human Rights," http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/03/20040312-5.html -  

Because you post this, I assume it was an error as I can�t see you defending rape rooms and torture chambers, right?

"Our military is � performing brilliantly. See, the transition from torture chambers and rape rooms and mass graves and fear of authority is a tough transition. And they're doing the good work of keeping this country stabilized as a political process unfolds."�Bush, remarks on "Tax Relief and the Economy," Iowa, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040415-7.html -  

The military is doing what they can to keep Iraqis from killing themselves over oil money. I would not have thought that a religion of peace would react this way and I am sure Bush did not either. Who would have thought that Muslims would kill Muslims for power and greed?

"We're facing supporters of the outlaw cleric, remnants of Saddam's regime that are still bitter that they don't have the position to run the torture chambers and rape rooms. � They will fail because they do not speak for the vast majority of Iraqis who do not want to replace one tyrant with another. They will fail because the will of our coalition is strong. They will fail because America leads a coalition full of the finest military men and women in the world."�Bush, remarks on the USA Patriot Act, Pennsylvania, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-3.html - April 19, 2004  

Fact - They are killing themselves over power and greed. Who would have though Muslims would react this way against them selves? We expected a religion of peace, not greed or power. We are learning this the hard way.

"We acted, and there are no longer mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms in Iraq."�Bush, remarks at Victory 2004 Reception, Florida, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040423-14.html - April 23, 2004  

If there are still rape rooms and torture chambers, they are Iraqi ones. Who would have thought there were more people like Saddam out there.

"A year ago, I did give the speech from the carrier, saying that we had achieved an important objective, that we'd accomplished a mission, which was the removal of Saddam Hussein. And as a result, there are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq."�Bush, remarks in the Rose Garden, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040430-2.html -  

If there are still rape rooms and torture chambers, they are Iraqi ones. Who would have thought there were more people like Saddam out there.

"Because we acted, torture rooms are closed, rape rooms no longer exist, mass graves are no longer a possibility in Iraq."�Bush, remarks at "Ask President Bush" event, Michigan, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040503-6.html -  

 If there are still rape rooms and torture chambers, they are Iraqi ones. Who would have thought there were more people like Saddam out there.

Bush statements on rendition:

�torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture.�

I disagree with his statement here. So, I guess you got me here. I would gladly torture a terrorist to save a thousand lives. The places that these people were sent to are Muslim countries who subscribe to torture. Go figure huh?

USA1:

Clearly you have not heard of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, where it is Americans doing the torturing, raping, and murder. The fact that he states over and over again that these practices are gone since the Americans are there is ironic as well as dishonest. Bush stated that he knew for a fact that Saddam had and was producing WMDs even though no evidence existed and still doesn't. Bush stated that there was no way he or his admin could have known the levees would break when there is a video tape showing officials telling him this is exactly what would happen and literally begging for help days before this occured. Bush has categorically denied that the U.S. practices rendition.

Whether you agree with any of his practices/policies or not, the fact remains if someone tells you something that just isn't true, it's a lie. If someone denies knowledge of something when they clearly had that knowledge, it's a lie. If someone denies doing or participating in something that they are in fact doing or participating in, that is a lie.  A lie is a lie.

Why I like America?

First and foremost it is a country where it is not as limited as other countries. I like the fact that I as a Muslim can interact 'freely' with other people of various faiths. In particular, I like being a Californian. The people here are wonderful and we are the only state that is the most populous of people from different countries. It is actually nice to get a chance to meet people of various backgrounds and to learn their traditions. It is indeed amazing to hear the many different names God has in various languages.

Yes indeed American, like many countries has its internal problems. We have crime here. We have drugs, prostitution, child molestation we have predators who prey on the elderly. Yet these things tend to overshadow the good things that many of us Americans are willing to do. Of course in our historical past we have had exploitation, racism, slavery yet in our modern times we do have some citizens willing to give up their lives.

There is the story in the Bible of course most you all know the story of Sodom and Gemorrah. When Abraham spoke to God (or was it Lot?????) in their discussion Abraham questioned God on why he would destroy an entire city and went further in his questioning in saying would he destroy the city with good people in it. God spoke to him saying if there was 10 righteous people he would not destroy the city. Eventually this symbolic discussion eventually boiled down to if it was one righteous person in the city God would not have destroyed it.

The point being here is that God is merciful to all the planets in his universe and although we have these racist, murderers and killers we are all capable of mercy and goodness. We all are born inherently 'good' in the sense of the word. We all were born in the pure nature in the sense and the fact that there is 20 good people in America rules out the generalization that the whole of the United States in bad.

The present administration we have now believes it is doing the will of the people when in fact we, who pay taxes and go to our jobs are doing the will. It is important to know that there are some good people in the world.

�First off there is no nude beaches in the United States ...�

Sorry, Israfil, and it's a minor point, but I used to live at Muir Beach in Marin County, not too far up the coast from this one, at Devil�s Slide (so named because the road is treacherous):

�Gray Whale Cove State Beach is one of the few beaches in California officially recognized as a naturist or clothing optional beach. Named for its bluff-top views of the whale migrations along the coast, the beach actually sits at the base of mountains and requires descent along a steep trail �� 

(Safe to click)  http://www.beachcalifornia.com/pacifica.html - http://www.beachcalifornia.com/pacifica.html

The wording here, �officially recognized,� is vague and it is not clear if, as you suggested, laws against nude bathing are in place, but the laws in any case are not enforced.  For sure, laws against public nudity are in place further up, in Marin County, but certain beaches there are still acknowledged, whether officially or unofficially, as �clothing optional.�  Anyway, I thought people might like to know this before booking their next holiday or making their vacation plans ... 

Serv

India has open corruption, particularly amongst the police and customs officials. I have been unlucky enough to experience this on several occasions on my travels to India. I have been there three times and the vast majority of the Indians I have met have been good people. I don't make the silly mistake you do and blame the population as a whole for the actions of a relative few.

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Why do you change the topic colin? This topic is about why you dislike U.S. and not about India. You may read the forum guidlines and there it is mentioned not to stray away from the topic.

If you want to have a discussion on India, I am ready. insha Allah i will clear you misconceptions regarding India.

I want to tell you that corruption may be there in India but among politicians and not among common people. India is the largest democracy in the world and Indian people have the right to throw of such politicians.

Indian people have a good character and good moral values.

salman wrote: I still don't agree with you colin. You say that ordinary Americans have character and morals. I don't believe what you say. In your country, gay marriages have been made legal, prostitution has been made legal, and there are many other things that are considered crimes in different parts of the world, have been made legal in your country for ordinary people. Women sit nude on the beaches. All this does constitute to bad morals and bad character.

Those who still disagree with what I said have to agree with this.

pornography is increasing rapidly in U.S.

This constitutes to bad character and bad morals of U.S. people.