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Wants a proof that Quran is God's word

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Category: Religion - Islam
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Topic: Wants a proof that Quran is God's word
Posted By: Abel
Subject: Wants a proof that Quran is God's word
Date Posted: 24 February 2017 at 7:02am
Hi, I looked up what evidence the quran has to prove itself as the word of god, and I must say I found a lot of scientific facts and mathematical miracles in the Quran and it proved to me that this book was not by any humans but that doesn't necessarily means its from the one god, Islam teaches us that there are aliens in the world and we are not alone, and there is a high possibility there are aliens with high technology that can easily deceive Mohammad and give him this religion with some scientific miracles to make people believe in him what I want is a prove that cannot be from anyone but god not aliens or humans or devils or whatever I want an evidence that can only come from god, I cant build my belief without %100 evidence,
I want to make sure I am worshiping the right god in the right religion.



Replies:
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 05 March 2017 at 1:37pm
@Abel
Quote I want to make sure I am worshiping the right god in the right religion.
I guess you're betting on the wrong horse and btw. there are no scientific miracles in the Quran - but a lot of people that like to read the tea leaves.

Airmano

-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 19 March 2017 at 8:50am
One shouldn't confuse the supernatural for the miraculous.


Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 20 March 2017 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by Abel Abel wrote:

Hi, I looked up what evidence the quran has to prove itself as the word of god, and I must say I found a lot of scientific facts and mathematical miracles in the Quran and it proved to me that this book was not by any humans but that doesn't necessarily means its from the one god, Islam teaches us that there are aliens in the world and we are not alone, and there is a high possibility there are aliens with high technology that can easily deceive Mohammad and give him this religion with some scientific miracles to make people believe in him what I want is a prove that cannot be from anyone but god not aliens or humans or devils or whatever I want an evidence that can only come from god, I cant build my belief without %100 evidence,
I want to make sure I am worshiping the right god in the right religion.


Well its easy if Muhammad said the sun sets in murky pool then all muslims must believe it.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Muhammad claimed that an angel spoke to him. I believe paul was right on there.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

Well Muhammad did not do well in the signs and wonders department , but he sure was a false prophet who spread a false message. Died like all false prophets die.



Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 26 April 2017 at 1:46am
Originally posted by Peace maker Peace maker wrote:

Originally posted by Abel Abel wrote:

Hi, I looked up what evidence the quran has to prove itself as the word of god, and I must say I found a lot of scientific facts and mathematical miracles in the Quran and it proved to me that this book was not by any humans but that doesn't necessarily means its from the one god, Islam teaches us that there are aliens in the world and we are not alone, and there is a high possibility there are aliens with high technology that can easily deceive Mohammad and give him this religion with some scientific miracles to make people believe in him what I want is a prove that cannot be from anyone but god not aliens or humans or devils or whatever I want an evidence that can only come from god, I cant build my belief without %100 evidence,
I want to make sure I am worshiping the right god in the right religion.


Well its easy if Muhammad said the sun sets in murky pool then all muslims must believe it.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Muhammad claimed that an angel spoke to him. I believe paul was right on there.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

Well Muhammad did not do well in the signs and wonders department , but he sure was a false prophet who spread a false message. Died like all false prophets die.



Like to see the efforts to spread peace there....(not).

Please pick 1 single bit of this more advanced science than was generally know at the time and let's have a look at it.



Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 07 June 2017 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Abel Abel wrote:

Hi, I looked up what evidence the quran has to prove itself as the word of god, and I must say I found a lot of scientific facts and mathematical miracles in the Quran and it proved to me that this book was not by any humans but that doesn't necessarily means its from the one god,...

Well, my brother, for the sake of argument, if you are convinced that the book 'Quran' is not an human endeavor, then how can you not believe in its content which clearly state that God is One and only One. Other than this, the uniqueness of this book among all others on this planet and since time immemorial no other book can be matched with its preservation in its original form, is yet another feature worth praising, and that the book is by divinely protected. Thus it is extremely important that instead of superficial (statistical) conviction about the truth of the book, I would rather encourage you to start reading it and start absorbing its true meaning which are originating from the creator of this universe to the humans. This is the real study that we automatically convince you what you are look for in this book.

Best regards



Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 07 June 2017 at 11:27am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

The Code of Hammurabi is a well-preserved https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia - Babylonian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_code - law code of ancient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia - Mesopotamia , dating back to about 1754 BC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Chronology - Middle Chronology ). It is one of the oldest deciphered writings of significant length in the world. The sixth Babylonian king, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi - Hammurabi , enacted the code, and partial copies exist on a seven and a half foot stone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele - stele and various clay tablets.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 11:10pm
Some background info on 'Code of Hammurabi' [URL=%20http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/8-things-you-may-not-know-about-hammurabis-code]:

'Hammurabi’s edicts were a fixture of the ancient world, but the laws were later lost to history and weren’t rediscovered until 1901, when a team of French archeologists unearthed the famous diorite stele at the ancient city of Susa, Iran, once the seat of the Elamite Empire. Historians believe the Elamite King Shutruk-Nahhunte plundered the four-ton slab during a 12th century B.C. raid on the Babylonian city of Sippar and then brought it to Susa as a treasure of war. Shutruk-Nahhunte is thought to have erased several columns from the monument to make space for his own inscription, but no text was ever added. Today, the pillar is kept on display at the Louvre Museum in Paris.'

This shows, beside many other observations, that 'something' got lost to history. (We don't know what was lost and to what extent it was lost). That it was rediscovered in 1901, showing evidence of adulteration by those who 'plundered' it and brought it to their own land. The statement 'Shutruk-Nahhunte is thought to have erased several columns from the monument to make space for his own inscription,....' clearly indicates such a loss.
Nevertheless, I don't think I ever claimed 'Old is Gold' as any trait that Quran posses but that it is the only book preserved it its complete and original text. Not partial tablets found even much earlier than this Code of Hammurabi. Even more, the association of such tablets with their authors is only conjectural (by historian) and not the eye witness accounts etc.



Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 10 June 2017 at 2:44am
So it is the fact that the text has not been altered.

OK, how about the Torah? I am not sure but appart from the additional bits surrounding the central messages that is the same as it was in 300 BC or so isn't it?



Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 11 June 2017 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Originally posted by Abel Abel wrote:

Hi, I looked up what evidence the quran has to prove itself as the word of god, and I must say I found a lot of scientific facts and mathematical miracles in the Quran and it proved to me that this book was not by any humans but that doesn't necessarily means its from the one god,...

Well, my brother, for the sake of argument, if you are convinced that the book 'Quran' is not an human endeavor, then how can you not believe in its content which clearly state that God is One and only One. Other than this, the uniqueness of this book among all others on this planet and since time immemorial no other book can be matched with its preservation in its original form, is yet another feature worth praising, and that the book is by divinely protected. Thus it is extremely important that instead of superficial (statistical) conviction about the truth of the book, I would rather encourage you to start reading it and start absorbing its true meaning which are originating from the creator of this universe to the humans. This is the real study that we automatically convince you what you are look for in this book.

Best regards



Ahmadjoya your logic is faulty. Perhaps the Quran is from aliens or demons ? Also can you please explain what makes the Quran so unique. Ive tried to read it and found it boring, rambling, and repetitive.
What is your basis to say no other book can be matched in preservation in its original form. Your Hafiz have no idea if they are memorising and reciting the original Quran because there are no original copies. Uthman burned them all.
Also the Saana Quran found in the 1970s is the oldest most complete copy of the Quran and it proves there was and is still is significant variances with what Muslims believe their orthodox Quran to be.
The Quran divinely protected? Really? How do you know? Just because it says it is? Does that make it so ? and should it be any more divinly protected than the Bagavagita, Bible or I Ching ?


Posted By: ABDULMALIQ ATTAR
Date Posted: 31 May 2018 at 12:39am
Peace be to you Dear brother 
simple proof that the Quran is from God ,if you are Christian then you should believe in the old testament and the new testament. 
and there is prophecy in the Old testament  JEREmiah 14:15
"Therefore this is what the Lord says about the prophets who are prophesying in my name: I did not send them, yet they are saying, โ€˜No sword or famine will touch this land.โ€™ Those same prophets will perish "#cen-NIV-19309AM"" rel="nofollow - AM )" data-cr="#cen-NIV-19309AM" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"> by sword and famine "
But Muhammed PBUH was not killed By sword or Famine. 
so he was not a liar Prophet.. so he was truely from God.. if not then why he was not killed (so the bible is wrong?!)


Posted By: yandex
Date Posted: 01 June 2018 at 2:40am
Originally posted by ABDULMALIQ ATTAR ABDULMALIQ ATTAR wrote:

But Muhammed PBUH was not killed By sword or Famine. 
so he was not a liar Prophet.. so he was truely from God.. if not then why he was not killed (so the bible is wrong?!)


I'm not sure about the relation between Bible (I'm not Christian) & Muhammad  but this is what Islamic sources say...

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta. (Quran 69: 44-46)

Narrated `Aisha:

The Prophet (๏ทบ) in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O `Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
SAHIH AL-BUKHARI 4428 Book of Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi)




Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 05 June 2018 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by ABDULMALIQ ATTAR ABDULMALIQ ATTAR wrote:

Peace be to you Dear brother 
simple proof that the Quran is from God ,if you are Christian then you should believe in the old testament and the new testament. 
and there is prophecy in the Old testament  JEREmiah 14:15
"Therefore this is what the Lord says about the prophets who are prophesying in my name: I did not send them, yet they are saying, โ€˜No sword or famine will touch this land.โ€™ Those same prophets will perish #cen-NIV-19309AM" rel="nofollow - AM )" data-cr="#cen-NIV-19309AM" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"> by sword and famine "
But Muhammed PBUH was not killed By sword or Famine. 
so he was not a liar Prophet.. so he was truely from God.. if not then why he was not killed (so the bible is wrong?!)
 
On what basis is the Bible wrong?.
If you say the Quran is the word of God then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible every word but no it isn't,The Angel Gabriel's name was used in vain by a lie because have stand in the presnece of God from the begining and He Gabriel would not have change a single word of God like its changed in the Quran to depict that Gabriel was the Angel that so called revealed the Quran to Muhammad is blasphemy against Gabriel and God with the intension to use His name to glorify Muhammad's own words and drag Gabriel into his lies.
Muhammad died of poisoning.
Jeremiah's words does not give a aproval to Muhammad to be a prophet.
 


Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 05 June 2018 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by ABDULMALIQ ATTAR ABDULMALIQ ATTAR wrote:

Peace be to you Dear brother 
simple proof that the Quran is from God ,if you are Christian then you should believe in the old testament and the new testament. 
and there is prophecy in the Old testament  JEREmiah 14:15
"Therefore this is what the Lord says about the prophets who are prophesying in my name: I did not send them, yet they are saying, โ€˜No sword or famine will touch this land.โ€™ Those same prophets will perish "#cen-NIV-19309AM"" rel="nofollow - AM )" data-cr="#cen-NIV-19309AM" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"> by sword and famine "
But Muhammed PBUH was not killed By sword or Famine. 
so he was not a liar Prophet.. so he was truely from God.. if not then why he was not killed (so the bible is wrong?!)


So are any and all would be profets who did not die by sword or famine also truely from God?


Posted By: ABUAHMED
Date Posted: 08 June 2018 at 12:06am
Please follow my posts


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 11 June 2018 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by Peace maker Peace maker wrote:

Originally posted by ABDULMALIQ ATTAR ABDULMALIQ ATTAR wrote:

 
On what basis is the Bible wrong?.
If you say the Quran is the word of God then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible every word but no it isn't,The Angel Gabriel's name was used in vain by a lie because have stand in the presnece of God from the begining and He Gabriel would not have change a single word of God like its changed in the Quran to depict that Gabriel was the Angel that so called revealed the Quran to Muhammad is blasphemy against Gabriel and God with the intension to use His name to glorify Muhammad's own words and drag Gabriel into his lies.
Muhammad died of poisoning.
Jeremiah's words does not give a aproval to Muhammad to be a prophet.
 

Sorry Peace maker,

You said: โ€œIf you say the Quran is the word of God then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible every word but no it isn't,โ€

I think you are just guessing that then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible.

What is in the earlier Scriptures is widely contained in the Qur'an, but what is in the Qur'an much is not in the earlier Scriptures.

The Quran is a Holy Book that completes the previous Scriptures (because it comes from one God), meaning God will not send another Book down again after the Quran because everything has completed. All the past, present and future information have all been presented in the Quran, and even in the Quran there is information that can give intuition to mankind in connection with the development of human science which until now mankind have not been able to uncover them (it means not a mirroring).

In Islam, "Gabriel" is an angel created by God, just like the other angels, only the tasks are different. This signifies the religion of Tawheed, that God is one and the Most Holy of all who associate Him.

You said: โ€œGabriel would not have change a single word of God like its changed in the Quran to depict that Gabriel was the Angel that so called revealed the Quran to Muhammad is blasphemy against Gabriel and God with the intension to use His name to glorify Muhammad's own words and drag Gabriel into his lies.โ€

Can you prove it? no one can make like the Quran, because it is God's promise:

โ€œVerily, We, it is We who have sent down the Dhikr (Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).โ€ (Al Hijr 15:9)

โ€œSay: โ€˜If the mankind and the jinn were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one anotherโ€™.โ€ (Al Israa 17:88)

This means proving that God challenges mankind if they are capable of making like the Qur'an (including the Prophet Muhammad also will not be able to make like the Quran).

You said: โ€œMuhammad died of poisoning.โ€

Can you provide proofs of truth that fit with its history?



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 12 June 2018 at 8:03am
Hello Asep!

Would you please comment on the Arabic that is typically translated as 'corrupted' in reference to religious scriptures? This word covers a significant semantic range in English, and its occurrance in Al Hijr 15:9 as a process requiring angelic prevention in the Qu'ran appears to provide a good comparison for a word study.   An accurate understanding of the word is important in understanding this connection between Islam and Christianity.

In English corruption can be a natural process, or an accidental error, or a deliberate criminal effort. More information about the Arabic used might be an aid to understanding.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 12 June 2018 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:

Originally posted by Peace maker Peace maker wrote:

Originally posted by ABDULMALIQ ATTAR ABDULMALIQ ATTAR wrote:

 
On what basis is the Bible wrong?.
If you say the Quran is the word of God then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible every word but no it isn't,The Angel Gabriel's name was used in vain by a lie because have stand in the presnece of God from the begining and He Gabriel would not have change a single word of God like its changed in the Quran to depict that Gabriel was the Angel that so called revealed the Quran to Muhammad is blasphemy against Gabriel and God with the intension to use His name to glorify Muhammad's own words and drag Gabriel into his lies.
Muhammad died of poisoning.
Jeremiah's words does not give a aproval to Muhammad to be a prophet.
 

Sorry Peace maker,

You said: โ€œIf you say the Quran is the word of God then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible every word but no it isn't,โ€

I think you are just guessing that then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible.

What is in the earlier Scriptures is widely contained in the Qur'an, but what is in the Qur'an much is not in the earlier Scriptures.

The Quran is a Holy Book that completes the previous Scriptures (because it comes from one God), meaning God will not send another Book down again after the Quran because everything has completed. All the past, present and future information have all been presented in the Quran, and even in the Quran there is information that can give intuition to mankind in connection with the development of human science which until now mankind have not been able to uncover them (it means not a mirroring).

In Islam, "Gabriel" is an angel created by God, just like the other angels, only the tasks are different. This signifies the religion of Tawheed, that God is one and the Most Holy of all who associate Him.

You said: โ€œGabriel would not have change a single word of God like its changed in the Quran to depict that Gabriel was the Angel that so called revealed the Quran to Muhammad is blasphemy against Gabriel and God with the intension to use His name to glorify Muhammad's own words and drag Gabriel into his lies.โ€

Can you prove it? no one can make like the Quran, because it is God's promise:

โ€œVerily, We, it is We who have sent down the Dhikr (Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).โ€ (Al Hijr 15:9)

โ€œSay: โ€˜If the mankind and the jinn were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one anotherโ€™.โ€ (Al Israa 17:88)

This means proving that God challenges mankind if they are capable of making like the Qur'an (including the Prophet Muhammad also will not be able to make like the Quran).

You said: โ€œMuhammad died of poisoning.โ€

Can you provide proofs of truth that fit with its history?

What cant you rememder your own islamic history?
. . . Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison." Sahih Bukhari 5:59:173. 
[Muhammad] asked, "Have you poisoned this sheep?" They [some Jews] said, "Yes." He asked, "What made you do so?" They said, "We wanted to know if you were a liar in which case we would get rid of you, and if you are a prophet then the poison would not harm you."
Thus, Jews wanted to see if the poison would affect him, and it did. So why could he not heal himself by the power of Allah? The Quran teaches that Muhammad could work no miracles.
 
He even executed the Jewis woman who poisoned him.
 
โ€œVerily, We, it is We who have sent down the Dhikr (Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).โ€ (Al Hijr 15:9)
This only said we not Allah or Jibrill  was mentioned, the we is Muhammad himself with so called instant revelations.
If it was Gabriel He would have said I am standing in the precence of God and, where is the Quran that we have send down? the Quran wasn't even writen till long after Muhammad's death so thus just shows you its a lie.
 
What is in the earlier Scriptures is widely contained in the Qur'an, but what is in the Qur'an much is not in the earlier Scriptures.
What is widely contained in the Quran? all the plagarizing from other scriptures the Quran does not even mean word of a god it only means recite so its not the word of any god except Muhammad's own words.
 
Then You wanted to tel me God and Gabriel lied in the Gospels.
Show me a better book than the Bible in the world.
 


Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 12 June 2018 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:

Originally posted by Peace maker Peace maker wrote:

Originally posted by ABDULMALIQ ATTAR ABDULMALIQ ATTAR wrote:

 
On what basis is the Bible wrong?.
If you say the Quran is the word of God then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible every word but no it isn't,The Angel Gabriel's name was used in vain by a lie because have stand in the presnece of God from the begining and He Gabriel would not have change a single word of God like its changed in the Quran to depict that Gabriel was the Angel that so called revealed the Quran to Muhammad is blasphemy against Gabriel and God with the intension to use His name to glorify Muhammad's own words and drag Gabriel into his lies.
Muhammad died of poisoning.
Jeremiah's words does not give a aproval to Muhammad to be a prophet.
 

Sorry Peace maker,

You said: โ€œIf you say the Quran is the word of God then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible every word but no it isn't,โ€

I think you are just guessing that then the Quran must have been the exacted mirror image of the Bible.

What is in the earlier Scriptures is widely contained in the Qur'an, but what is in the Qur'an much is not in the earlier Scriptures.

The Quran is a Holy Book that completes the previous Scriptures (because it comes from one God), meaning God will not send another Book down again after the Quran because everything has completed. All the past, present and future information have all been presented in the Quran, and even in the Quran there is information that can give intuition to mankind in connection with the development of human science which until now mankind have not been able to uncover them (it means not a mirroring).

In Islam, "Gabriel" is an angel created by God, just like the other angels, only the tasks are different. This signifies the religion of Tawheed, that God is one and the Most Holy of all who associate Him.

You said: โ€œGabriel would not have change a single word of God like its changed in the Quran to depict that Gabriel was the Angel that so called revealed the Quran to Muhammad is blasphemy against Gabriel and God with the intension to use His name to glorify Muhammad's own words and drag Gabriel into his lies.โ€

Can you prove it? no one can make like the Quran, because it is God's promise:

โ€œVerily, We, it is We who have sent down the Dhikr (Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).โ€ (Al Hijr 15:9)

โ€œSay: โ€˜If the mankind and the jinn were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one anotherโ€™.โ€ (Al Israa 17:88)

This means proving that God challenges mankind if they are capable of making like the Qur'an (including the Prophet Muhammad also will not be able to make like the Quran).

You said: โ€œMuhammad died of poisoning.โ€

Can you provide proofs of truth that fit with its history?

 
โ€œSay: โ€˜If the mankind and the jinn were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one anotherโ€™.โ€ (Al Israa 17:88)
 
You belief in jinns genies there no such a thing as jinns it came from pre-islamic fairytales where Muhammad copied it he even said jinns live in holes and eat dung and dried bones how can normal human being belief in this stupity. 


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 13 June 2018 at 10:37am
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Hello Asep!

Would you please comment on the Arabic that is typically translated as 'corrupted' in reference to religious scriptures? This word covers a significant semantic range in English, and its occurrance in Al Hijr 15:9 as a process requiring angelic prevention in the Qu'ran appears to provide a good comparison for a word study.   An accurate understanding of the word is important in understanding this connection between Islam and Christianity.

In English corruption can be a natural process, or an accidental error, or a deliberate criminal effort. More information about the Arabic used might be an aid to understanding.

Well DavidC ! gladly, Insha Allah I will explain it, but I ask for a few days because I was being (i'tikaf) in the mosque, may be tomorrow Friday I'll have been carrying out Eid al-Fitr in my Country. Thank you for the comments.



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 June 2018 at 10:49am
Praying for a blessed eid for you and all my forum friends, Asep. No hurry; I am always grateful for your generous contributions.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 17 June 2018 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Praying for a blessed eid for you and all my forum friends, Asep. No hurry; I am always grateful for your generous contributions.

DavidC,

First of all, I would like to thank you for your kindness towards us (Muslims Ummah), and have been patient to wait. And here's the explanation from me, hopefully will increase our knowledge in peeling or uncovering the meaning of reading in the Qur'an.

In the Qur'an, there are many verses whose meaning refers to the meaning of the word 'corrupted', for example:

 โ€œ...They change the words (of Allah) from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves good-doers.โ€ (5:13)

 โ€œDo you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish Rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah (The Torah), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it ?โ€ (2:75)

 From the 2 verses underline above, it shows a similarity of meaning from 'corrupt'. And there are still other verses.

Here is the interpretation of every syllable of surah Al Hijr 15: 9,

ุฅูู†ู‘ูŽุง ู†ูŽุญู’ู†ู ู†ูŽุฒู‘ูŽู„ู’ู†ูŽุง ุงู„ุฐู‘ููƒู’ุฑูŽ ูˆูŽุฅูู†ู‘ูŽุง ู„ูŽู‡ู ู„ูŽุญูŽุงููุธููˆู’ู†ูŽ

ุฅูู†ู‘ูŽุง means : Verily, Surely.

ู†ูŽุญู’ู†ู means : We.

The meaning of "We" in this word is referring to Allah (God) and the Angel Gabriel, because the Qur'an was not handed down directly by Allah to Prophet Muhammad, but through Angel Gabriel as intermediate between Allah and Prophet Muhammad.

ู†ูŽุฒู‘ูŽู„ู’ู†ูŽุง This is derived from the syllable of  ู†ู’ุฒูŽู„ู’ู†ูŽุง ุงูŽ means : Sent it down.

ุงู„ุฐู‘ููƒู’ุฑูŽ This is derived from the syllable of ุงูŽู„ุฐู‘ููƒู’ุฑูŽ means : The Qurโ€™an, because one of the other names of the Qur'an is Adz-Dzikr (Reminder).

ูˆูŽ means : and

ุฅูู†ู‘ูŽุง means : Verily We, Surely We. The word ุฅูู†ู‘ูŽุง here is to express the word  ู†ูŽุญู’ู†ู written before, and 'We' here can be meant Allah, angels and people who memorized and understood the Qur'an.

ู„ูŽู‡ู means : to him, "Him" here means the Qur'an or Adz-Dzikr.

ู„ูŽุญูŽุงููุธููˆู’ู†ูŽ This is derived from the syllable of  ุงูŽู„ู’ุญูŽุงูููŠู’ุธู  (Al-Hafiizhu) means : The All-Maintain, which is to maintain the authenticity of the Qur'an, and here, besides Allah and Angel, also those who know and understand the contents of the Qur'an, so that if there is a single letter that changed from the Qur'an, it will soon be detected or known.

And then the assurance from Allah regarding the maintaining of the authenticity of the Qur'an among others: * To avoid from all the efforts that will falsify it,

* The Qur'an will be preserved until the apocalypse is imminent, in this case Allah will take the Qur'an or will be omitted from this world when the apocalypse is very close.




Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 17 June 2018 at 7:09pm
Thank you, Asep. We can certainly discuss this sensitive subject prayerfully and accurately.

I do not think any Christian would deny that the bible was and still is held up by some evil 'Christians' as a justification for their deeds. This was especially true around the Qu'ranic period and the word corruption fits the human action but not the text. Indeed, the Christians of 1700 C.E. would have tried the Nestorian and Ebionite Christians of Muhummad's Arabia as corrupt heretics.

Your reading seems similar in that it relates to the interpretation and use of the Bible more than to the text itself. Casual apologists tend to dwell on superficial textual errors or stridently insist the Bible claims to be more authoritative than it does. This discussion promises to be more edifying.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 18 June 2018 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Praying for a blessed eid for you and all my forum friends, Asep. No hurry; I am always grateful for your generous contributions.



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">DavidC,</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">First
of all, I would like to thank you for your kindness towards us (Muslims Ummah),
and have been patient to wait. And here's the explanation from me, hopefully
will increase our knowledge in peeling or uncovering the meaning of reading in
the Qur'an.</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">In
the Qur'an, there are many verses whose meaning refers to the meaning of the
word 'corrupted', for example:</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">ย </span>โ€œ...They change the words (of Allah)
from their (right) places
and have abandoned a good part of the Message
that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them,
except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily,
Allah loves good-doers</span>
<span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">.โ€
(5:13)</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">ย โ€œDo
you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite
of the fact that a party of them (Jewish Rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah
(The Torah), then they used to change it knowingly after they
understood it
?โ€ (2:75)</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">ย From
the 2 verses underline above, it shows a similarity of meaning from 'corrupt'.
And there are still other verses.</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">Here
is the interpretation of every syllable of surah Al Hijr 15: 9,</span>



<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center" align="center"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ุฅูู†ูŽู‘ุง ู†ูŽุญู’ู†ู ู†ูŽุฒูŽู‘ู„ู’ู†ูŽุง ุงู„ุฐูู‘ูƒู’ุฑูŽ ูˆูŽุฅูู†ูŽู‘ุง ู„ูŽู‡ู
ู„ูŽุญูŽุงููุธููˆู’ู†ูŽ </span><span style="font-size:16.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1"></span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ุฅูู†ูŽู‘ุง</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">means : Verily, Surely.</span><span style="color:black; mso-themecolor:text1"></span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ู†ูŽุญู’ู†ู</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">means : We.</span><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor: text1"></span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">The
meaning of "We" in this word is referring to Allah (God) and the
Angel Gabriel, because the Qur'an was not handed down directly by Allah to
Prophet Muhammad, but through Angel Gabriel as intermediate between Allah and
Prophet Muhammad.</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ู†ูŽุฒูŽู‘ู„ู’ู†ูŽุง</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">This is derived from the syllable of <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">ย </span></span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ู†ู’ุฒูŽู„ู’ู†ูŽุง</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ุงูŽ</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">means : Sent it down.</span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1"></span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ุงู„ุฐูู‘ูƒู’ุฑูŽ</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">This is derived from the syllable of</span><span style="font-size:18.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1"> </span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ุงูŽู„ุฐูู‘ูƒู’ุฑูŽ</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">means : The Qurโ€™an, </span><span style="color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">because one of the other names of the Qur'an is Adz-Dzikr
(Reminder).</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ูˆูŽ</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">means : and</span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1"></span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ุฅูู†ูŽู‘ุง</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">means : Verily We, Surely We. The word </span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ุฅูู†ูŽู‘ุง</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>
here is to express the word<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">ย  </span></span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ู†ูŽุญู’ู†ู</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>
written before, and 'We' here can be meant Allah, angels and people who
memorized and understood the Qur'an</span><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:Cambria;color:black; mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span>.</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ู„ูŽู‡ู</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">means : to him, </span><span ="shorttext"><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1;mso-ansi-:EN" lang="EN">"Him"
here means the Qur'an or Adz-</span><span style="color:black;mso-themecolor: text1">Dzikr</span></span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS"; color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">.</span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1"></span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ู„ูŽุญูŽุงููุธููˆู’ู†ูŽ</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black;mso-themecolor: text1" lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1">This is derived from the syllable of<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">ย  </span></span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1" lang="AR-SA">ุงูŽู„ู’ุญูŽุงูููŠู’ุธู</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"KFGQPC Uthmanic HAFS";color:black; mso-themecolor:text1"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">ย  </span>(Al-Hafiizhu) means : The All-Maintain, which
is to maintain the authenticity of the Qur'an, and here, besides Allah and
Angel, also those who know and understand the contents of the Qur'an, so that
if there is a single letter that changed from the Qur'an, it will soon be
detected or known.</span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">And then the
assurance from Allah regarding the maintaining of the authenticity of the
Qur'an among others: * To avoid from all the efforts that will falsify it, </span>



<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">* The Qur'an
will be preserved until the apocalypse is imminent, in this case Allah will
take the Qur'an or will be omitted from this world when the apocalypse is very
close.</span>

<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align: justify;line-height:normal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">
</span>



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<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Semi="true"     UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 7"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Semi="true"     UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 8"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Semi="true"     UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 9"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Normal Indent"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="footnote text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="annotation text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="er"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="footer"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="index ing"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="35" Semi="true"     UnhideWhenUsed="true" Qat="true" Name="caption"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="table of figures"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="envelope address"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="envelope return"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="footnote reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="annotation reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="line number"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="page number"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="endnote reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="endnote text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="table of authorities"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="macro"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="toa ing"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Bullet"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Number"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Bullet 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Bullet 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Bullet 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Bullet 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Number 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Number 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Number 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Number 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" Qat="true" Name="Title"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Closing"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Signature"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" Semi="true"     UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Text Indent"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Continue"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Continue 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Continue 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Continue 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="List Continue 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Message er"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" Qat="true" Name="Subtitle"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Salutation"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Date"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Text First Indent"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Text First Indent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Note ing"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Text 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Text 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Text Indent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Text Indent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Block Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Hyper"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="FollowedHyper"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" Qat="true" Name="Strong"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" Qat="true" Name="Emphasis"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" "/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Plain Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="E-mail Signature"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Top of "/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Bottom of "/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Normal Web"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Acronym"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Address"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Cite"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Code"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Definition"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Keyboard"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Preatted"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" le"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" r"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name=" Variable"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Normal Table"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="annotation subject"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="No List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Outline List 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Outline List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Outline List 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Simple 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Simple 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Simple 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table ic 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table ic 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table ic 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table ic 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Colorful 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Colorful 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Colorful 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Columns 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Columns 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Columns 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Columns 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Columns 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Grid 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Grid 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Grid 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Grid 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Grid 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Grid 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Grid 7"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Grid 8"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table List 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table List 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table List 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table List 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table List 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table List 7"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table List 8"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table 3D effects 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table 3D effects 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table 3D effects 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Contemporary"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Elegant"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Professional"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Subtle 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Subtle 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Web 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Web 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Web 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Balloon Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="Table Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"     Name="Table Theme"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" Name="Placeholder Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" Qat="true" Name="No Spacing"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Semi="true" Name="Revision"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" Qat="true"     Name="List Paragraph"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" Qat="true" Name="Quote"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" Qat="true"     Name="Intense Quote"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" Qat="true"     Name="Subtle Emphasis"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" Qat="true"     Name="Intense Emphasis"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" Qat="true"     Name="Subtle Reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" Qat="true"     Name="Intense Reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" Qat="true" Name="Book Title"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Semi="true"     UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Bibliography"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Semi="true"     UnhideWhenUsed="true" Qat="true" Name="TOC ing"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="41" Name="Plain Table 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="42" Name="Plain Table 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="43" Name="Plain Table 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="44" Name="Plain Table 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="45" Name="Plain Table 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="40" Name="Grid Table Light"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"     Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"     Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"     Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"     Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"     Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"     Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"     Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"     Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"     Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"     Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 4"/>
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All this implies to oral corruption, non of the verses you state imply to the scriptures being physically corrupted. The early Muslims asked the people of the scripture to believe in the books they already had, however Muslims were abliged to believe in the incorruptible Injil and Torah that was in the possession of the people of the scripture. The early muslims believed that the Christians and Jews would distort words and purposely distort words out of their correct meaning and place. It was only later muslims likely with inspiration through the works of Ibn Hazm came to believe the Injil and Torah themselves were corrupt.


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 19 June 2018 at 12:07am
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Thank you, Asep. We can certainly discuss this sensitive subject prayerfully and accurately.

I do not think any Christian would deny that the bible was and still is held up by some evil 'Christians' as a justification for their deeds. This was especially true around the Qu'ranic period and the word corruption fits the human action but not the text. Indeed, the Christians of 1700 C.E. would have tried the Nestorian and Ebionite Christians of Muhummad's Arabia as corrupt heretics.

Your reading seems similar in that it relates to the interpretation and use of the Bible more than to the text itself. Casual apologists tend to dwell on superficial textual errors or stridently insist the Bible claims to be more authoritative than it does. This discussion promises to be more edifying.

Youโ€™re welcome, DavidC,

All the errors that occur in all the books only in the human alone, therefore, Allah revealed the Quran with the original language of the Prophet Muhammad, so that its authenticity is maintained from counterfeiting. And the possibilities differ only in the translation, because of the language differences of each country.

All the books revealed to His messengers are basically divided into two main factors:

1. Tawheed: meaning that they are commanded to invite their people to worship only to one God (Allah).

2. Shari'ah: it means all the ordinances associated with doing various worship:

a. Its relationship to the ordinance of worshiping to their Lord as it has exemplified by his Apostles.

b. Its relationship with all human beings, for example: to do good to humanity, to bring people to the light of righteousness from their God in wise ways, to reject all bad characteristics in good ways except in situations of forced like when aqidah will be changed and expelled from their countries (colonized).

In the teachings of Islam, all Muslims must be firmly guided to the Quran so that if there is difference of opinions then they must return to refer to the authentic source that is Al Quran, that is why almost all Al Quran always contains the original language besides its translation.

Apart from that, the Qur'an also contains many of the words of Allah that informing about the past events, present and future including intuitions that will be useful for the development of science of mankind which have been contained in the Qur'an which was revealed around 14 centuries ago. On that basis Allah will not bring down His book again after the Quran.



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 20 June 2018 at 6:00am
I believe God created all of humanity with a desire to love and serve God on this earth. We all start out as children with ourselves at the center of the universe. As we mature we are divinely guided to understand this is backwards.

We are all different, and it seems obvious to me that God loves variety. The Qu'ran and the Bible are both of immense spiritual value yet they are entirely different in genre, time and purpose.

Some people love to involve themselves in arguments about religion, but I think it is a bad thing to argue about God. The most likely result of argument is to push people away from God, and that is an evil result even if one has the most gracious intentions.

I used to get rude mail from other Christians here because I always applaud new members who joyously announce they have pronounced Shahada. But what else to do when someone embraces God!   

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 22 June 2018 at 3:44pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldS7Uq9YRw4%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldS7Uq9YRw4

A good answer to the sun setting in murky water.


Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 23 June 2018 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by iec786 iec786 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldS7Uq9YRw4%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldS7Uq9YRw4

A good answer to the sun setting in murky water.

Wikiislam gives an even better answer and refutation to all Islamic apologetics regarding this verse.


Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 25 June 2018 at 2:21pm
@Iec
Could you try to make your point instead of posting unrelated videos form a bloke speaking in Hyde Park ?

Thanx:  Airmano
 


-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")


Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 25 June 2018 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

I believe God created all of humanity with a desire to love and serve God on this earth. We all start out as children with ourselves at the center of the universe. As we mature we are divinely guided to understand this is backwards.

We are all different, and it seems obvious to me that God loves variety. The Qu'ran and the Bible are both of immense spiritual value yet they are entirely different in genre, time and purpose.

Some people love to involve themselves in arguments about religion, but I think it is a bad thing to argue about God. The most likely result of argument is to push people away from God, and that is an evil result even if one has the most gracious intentions.

I used to get rude mail from other Christians here because I always applaud new members who joyously announce they have pronounced Shahada. But what else to do when someone embraces God!   

Yes DavidC, essentially humans live in this world only play a role, but the All-Making everything is only God and we can not do more than His will.

God tells people to worship Him and do good to their fellow beings, some follow Him, but some don't follow Him. Thanks DavidC.




Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 30 June 2018 at 9:20am
The Quran is self explanatory 
Surah 4:82 claims.

Do they not consider the Quran (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.



Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 04 July 2018 at 12:39am
Originally posted by iec786 iec786 wrote:

The Quran is self explanatory 
Surah 4:82 claims.

Do they not consider the Quran (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.



There are wrong bits in the Koran. Sea water and fresh water mix well.


Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 06 July 2018 at 3:14am
Originally posted by Tim the plumber Tim the plumber wrote:

 There are wrong bits in the Koran. Sea water and fresh water mix well.

Hi Tim,

I think you are referring to the following verses in the Qur'an:


Qur'an [55:19-20]

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=55&verse=19#%2855:19:1%29" rel="nofollow">

Yusuf Ali: He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:

Shakir: He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=55&verse=20#%2855:20:1%29" rel="nofollow">

Yusuf Ali: Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:

Shakir: Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass.


And these verses:

Qur'an [25:53]

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53#%2825:53:1%29" rel="nofollow">

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Shakir: And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.


The different 'salinities' of the 2 bodies of water causes 2 different densities... and therefore they will stay apart and not 'transgress' and mix.


This Scientific concept is now being discovered in 'new' lights and depths, unknown before. Look at the following articles:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/7920006/Undersea-river-discovered-flowing-on-sea-bed.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/7920006/Undersea-river-discovered-flowing-on-sea-bed.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2384313/The-river-UNDER-sea-Haunting-images-scuba-diver-exploring-mysterious-channel.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2384313/The-river-UNDER-sea-Haunting-images-scuba-diver-exploring-mysterious-channel.html

https://www.marineinsight.com/environment/is-there-a-river-under-the-sea/" rel="nofollow - https://www.marineinsight.com/environment/is-there-a-river-under-the-sea/


The question is:

How did the... 

1) illiterate prophet...

2) living in the Desert of Arabia... 

3) 1500 years ago... 

know something that we (with all our technology, Physics, Chemistry, SCUBA Diving equipment...etc) are only 'starting' to discover now?


Whenever the Qur'an does not agree with our 'logical thinking' and our 'current scientific advances'... it does not mean that the Qur'an is 'wrong' (as you choose to put it)... it just means that we have yet to discover it!


This is the Wisdom of The All-Wise God Allah SWT... He allows 'new' generations to discover 'new' significances to His Signs and Verses... for His own Purpose.


Note: This is just one interpretation of these verses... there are of course other interpretations found in Tafsirs.









Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 06 July 2018 at 9:07am
Originally posted by MIAW MIAW wrote:

Originally posted by Tim the plumber Tim the plumber wrote:

 There are wrong bits in the Koran. Sea water and fresh water mix well.

Hi Tim,

I think you are referring to the following verses in the Qur'an:


Qur'an [55:19-20]

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=55&verse=19#%2855:19:1%29" rel="nofollow">

Yusuf Ali: He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:

Shakir: He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=55&verse=20#%2855:20:1%29" rel="nofollow">

Yusuf Ali: Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:

Shakir: Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass.


And these verses:

Qur'an [25:53]

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53#%2825:53:1%29" rel="nofollow">

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Shakir: And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.


The different 'salinities' of the 2 bodies of water causes 2 different densities... and therefore they will stay apart and not 'transgress' and mix.



The rivers that flow into the seas of the world mix with the sea water. Always. I have discussed this with other Islamics who claim that the opposite is true due to it saying so in the Koran. It does not change the facts that fresh water and salt water mix.

Quote This Scientific concept is now being discovered in 'new' lights and depths, unknown before. Look at the following articles:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/7920006/Undersea-river-discovered-flowing-on-sea-bed.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/7920006/Undersea-river-discovered-flowing-on-sea-bed.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2384313/The-river-UNDER-sea-Haunting-images-scuba-diver-exploring-mysterious-channel.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2384313/The-river-UNDER-sea-Haunting-images-scuba-diver-exploring-mysterious-channel.html

https://www.marineinsight.com/environment/is-there-a-river-under-the-sea/" rel="nofollow - https://www.marineinsight.com/environment/is-there-a-river-under-the-sea/


Extremely salty water, brime, can sometimes be found under the sea on the sea bed. It is not salt water vs fresh water ever. This is a different thing.

Quote How did the... 

1) illiterate prophet...

2) living in the Desert of Arabia... 

3) 1500 years ago... 

know something that we (with all our technology, Physics, Chemistry, SCUBA Diving equipment...etc) are only 'starting' to discover now?

He did not. He got it wrong as he was talking about free flowing water. Fresh free flowing water.

Quote Whenever the Qur'an does not agree with our 'logical thinking' and our 'current scientific advances'... it does not mean that the Qur'an is 'wrong' (as you choose to put it)... it just means that we have yet to discover it!

Fresh water, the stuff that quenches your thirst, mixes with salt water.

Quote This is the Wisdom of The All-Wise God Allah SWT... He allows 'new' generations to discover 'new' significances to His Signs and Verses... for His own Purpose.

So anything you want is in the Koran, if you got it wrong last time just change the interpretation....




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