Heaven or Hell
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38390
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Topic: Heaven or Hell
Posted By: Saved
Subject: Heaven or Hell
Date Posted: 22 October 2016 at 7:40pm
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Hi group:
I am AL... I am hoping to get in comparative religious discussions between Christianity and Islam. BTW, to tell you a little about me - I believe I am saved now and forever by the blood of Jesus. That is what I put all my faith in resulting in good deeds in this life. As for the blood of Christ (Lamb of God), just like Moses had the children of Israel put the blood of the lamb on their door posts during the Passover opportunity. As a result, death Passed over the people that were under the blood covering during Passover. To be honest, I don't think I could do enough good to merit salvation; anyone who believes they can earn paradise, they will be greatly disappointed, IMHO. |
Replies:
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 25 October 2016 at 12:05pm
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Dear Saved, peace be with you.
In Islam, the people who can earn paradise are those who run all the commandments of Allah (the Lord) and stay away from all that is forbidden by Allah (in other words "Taqwa"), and not because of other things, like the blood of the lamb, etc. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 26 October 2016 at 8:17am
The only person that has ever done that Is Jesus. His virgin birth proves he hasn't been contaminated by the sin of man. He offered me a right standing with God through Him. You might say that all people are born Muslim and some revert, but the prophet David in the OT Bible states that "In sin did my mother conceive me I was surely sinful at birth" Based on David's testimony and the message from the gospel, I understand that we are not born submitting to Allah (Muslim). I would like to ask you a question. Is everything Allah does logically explained? That includes all things He's done and does such as creation and so on. PBUY |
asep48garut60 wrote:Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 26 October 2016 at 8:25am
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Hi AL.
The "blood of Jesus" is a metaphor for grace. Animal blood was a purification ritual in old Hebrew religion, but human blood has always been an corrupting impurity and human sacrifice is an abomination. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 26 October 2016 at 12:22pm
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 26 October 2016 at 2:30pm
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This is an introductory forum for new member announcements.
PM me to follow up. There is one topic set aside for interfaith conversations. Be respectful and avoid preaching or polemics. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 26 October 2016 at 2:57pm
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Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 26 October 2016 at 4:38pm
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Dear Saved,
How can I know Muslims who run all the commands of Allah and distancing itself from the ban of Allah? I'm not God. Only Allah knows human behavior, including being whispered in the human heart. it's the same as you will not know anyone who is running the commands of your Lord. Muslims believe that Isa (Jesus) was a messenger of Allah, regardless of whether he was born of a virgin or not, because for Allah nothing is impossible, He is able to make more of it like Adam who had no father and mother. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 26 October 2016 at 4:39pm
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Dear David C,
Thank you for your response. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 26 October 2016 at 7:58pm
The gospel states that there is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man. If you ask yourself have you obeyed Allah's commands and always refrain from what he prohibits, you would have to answer honestly. If any Muslim or Christian answers they have, then they lied and sinned with their response. All we have to do is look at ourselves and know that our struggles for obedience is common to all people and that no one is right in their own strength. The gospel states that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. As for Adam not having father or mother that is not true. Adam had God as his father (Jesus is the last Adam). Adam had no mother, because God had to have started human creation that way. That was obviously not the case with Jesus. The virgin birth of Jesus is recorded in the gospel first and that original source gives the reason for it. Any other source that talks of the virgin birth of Jesus got it from the gospel. The Quran mentions Jesus' virgin birth, but it doesn't give the reason for it. We find the reason from the true and original source of that Scripture. Best regards, Saved |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 27 October 2016 at 2:33pm
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Dear Saved,
I will answer honestly because I believe that Allah watched every what I stated and I did. I am not a man who never made a mistake or sin, but at my age of almost 57 years, I'll make every effort to always carry out all His commandments and avoid what is forbidden. And keep in mind that not all Muslims are running all His commands, the quality of their faith is not the same. In Islam that every human soul is essentially eternal life, and ruined is only the body, the wages of sin is not death but hell (if not repentance), because all humans will experience death, and the gift of eternal life is straight from Allah, not through Christ Jesus and even not through the prophet Muhammad. Starting from the Prophet Adam to Prophet Muhammad, including the Prophet Isa (Jesus), they were the Messengers of Allah, and their task is to convey the religion of Tauhid (monotheism), that is to invite mankind to worship only to Allah. So in Islam that they aren't the son of God, as Allah says in the Quran 112:3. That's a brief explanation of belief in Islam. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 28 October 2016 at 8:42am
God called Jesus His "Beloved Son" and Jesus calls God His Father. I agree with you that God didn't sire Jesus, but Jesus comes from God. In Islam he is the verb Word "Be," and in the Gospel, He is the verb Word "I am." Just so we are clear here. Be and I am are the same verb! Not all people will see the truth, but the person that does and chooses a lie to believe instead is a fool IMHO. Peace |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 28 October 2016 at 2:36pm
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Dear Saved,
I know Jesus (Isa) that he is not a son of God is from the Quran. "No one comes to the Father (God) except through me." What Jesus said is applicable to all ethnic groups?, and for all mankind until the end of time? I have an answer in the Gospel itself. Yes, in Islam Adam was a prophet, but not a son of God, and yes, Jesus is more than a prophet, because in addition to be a prophet he was also as the Apostle of Allah like Noah, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad and others. They received revelation from Allah, besides for themselves but also to be delivered to their people. Yes, I agree that Jesus came from Allah, and every human being from Adam to the last human born into the world is also coming from Allah. In Islam, the definition of the word "Be" is; when Allah wants something to be, then He simply say "Be" then so be it. "Not all people will see the truth, but the person that does and chooses a lie to believe instead is a fool IMHO." Yes, I agree with you, and it will be proven when a person gets guidance from Allah or when the angel of death comes near someone's death. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 7:36pm
I said Jesus to Christians is way more than a prophet or apostle, because like Islam shows Jesus to have created life, the Bible states that all things were made by Christ, through Him and for Him. That means Jesus not only gave life to a piece of matter in the Quran (only God can create and only shares creation power with and for His Word); in fact, the gospel shows he was creator of all things that means all angels and prophet messengers. This makes sense to me when we consider Jesus is the Word of God. He is not only the word of Allah in Islam he is also the Word of God in Christianity. It is clear that Jesus is the Word "BE" Allah speaks and all things Allah wills comes into being. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am." The Jews wanted to kill Jesus for saying that. I am and Be are the same verb. This is really deep hidden truths waiting to be discovered by many of people. PBUY Al creating life which is only something God can do |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 10:38pm
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Dear Saved,
In Islam, the Prophets or Apostles mean humans chosen by Allah to receive His revelation and will re-informing to the humans about something that are very beneficial. Adam received revelation since he was in heaven until he was lowered into the earth, and he became a Prophet for his posterity or humans around him. So that nothing is wrong perception of Jesus, I'd like to ask you, is Yesus God? because in Islam that Jesus is a Prophet, he is the son of Maria, so he is a human child, and it doesn't correspond to what you said "Because like Islam shows Jesus to have created life,". Islam doesn't say like that. In Islam, only Allah who creates life, including who created the Prophet Isa (Jesus). So he (Jesus) can't create angels, humans etc. Also in Islam that the Prophet Isa (Jesus) is not the word of God, but he is God's creation in a human form. If you say "It is clear that Jesus is the Word" BE "God speaks and all things God wills comes into being." Does this mean that you consider Jesus is God? �creating life which is only something God can do� Yes, for this one I am agree. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 30 October 2016 at 12:34pm
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Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 30 October 2016 at 5:21pm
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Dear Saved,
In Islam who will entering paradise are those who keep the commandments of Allah and stay away from what are forbidden by Him, as mentioned in the Quran 23: 1-11 Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 8:05pm
I understand, however, what you're saying, but I don't see hope in your statement, because no one can keep Allah's commands without disobeying at some point in their life; moreover, no one can keep from all Allah forbids all the time. If you break one of Allah's laws you have broken them all. Therefore, if a Muslim disobeys a command or does that which Allah forbids he has no idea where he stand with Allah's conditional love. Even Abu Bakr (Muhammad's right hand man) makes my point. He said "I couldn't trust the Makr of Allah if I had one foot on earth and one foot in paradise." The difference between the God of the gospel and the Allah of the Quran is Allah's love is conditional and God's love in the gospel is unconditional. God loves the sinner and he commands that we love all people even our enemies. I feel like the gospel offers me hope. God's goodness to sinners leads them to repentance. But it is appointed unto man once to die after that comes the judgment. PBUY Al |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 10:38pm
Could you please prove the above from Islamic scriptures? Islamic scriptures means Quran and Hadith. The claims that you made that breaking Allah's law is breaking all of His laws and a Muslim doesn't know where he stands with Allah's conditional love? There is actually proof to the contrary to what you claim. I'll wait for your response to prove me from the Quran what you claimed, and then inshA'Allah I'll respond. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 12:37pm
I'll tell you what, Since you say you actually have proof that all these claims are false. You show the proof and I'll take it from there. Otherwise, don't claim I am saying something false, because you don't agree with truth. Please copy and paste this to a different section. Never mind, I will so we can get out of introduction section. Don't reply here |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 7:41pm
The above are your words and you already posted them so no need to hide yourself. The above claim about the Quran is false. Allah mentions warning of punishment but His Mercy is greater and prevails. Allah orders us to be merciful and loving and this has already been shared with you on other threads. There is no need for us to keep repeating. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 11:31pm
Dear Saved, Indeed no mankind that is 100% can run all the commands of Allah and away from what's forbidden by Allah, because humans can't be separated from error and sin, but Allah will forgive them depending on what kind of their mistakes (Quran 33:5). Humans are only ordered to worship and carry out all the commands of Allah, and the determinants is only owned by Allah (Quran 28:68-70). Affection Allah in the Quran is conditional, because if it's not conditional, then humans in their life will be free to follow what their will without any signs that can distinguish between good and bad, should or not etc. In Islam, there's no repentance after death, but before death. Here are some proofs: Quran 6:54, 16:119, 66:8 and more. (Narrated by Ibn Majah from Abu Hurairah) "If you make mistakes (sins) to be your fault it's up to the sky, then you repent, Allah will give forgiveness to you." Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 9:34pm
Who is hiding and from what? According to what you say here Allah's love doesn't go as far as humankind. Think of this, a parent of a child that does wrongly is still loved by the parent unconditionally. The parent will punish the child with unconditional love for correcting purposes, but you say Allah uses his love conditionally, uhm; in other words, your God is not capable of loving unconditionally. Is that right? The God of the gospel loves us unconditionally. While we were yet sinners Christ died to save us enemies of God. Now we are reconciled to God through Christ. That is why He was sent here as son of God and born of a virgin. God lets us know that Jesus wasn't born by the will of flesh and blood but by God alone as a gift of salvation to us. God showed me that I am saved by the righteousness of Christ and that outside of Christ there is no salvation, because I don't have the righteousness required by God to enter paradise on my own and no one does. PBUY, Al |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 3:40pm
Dear Saved, I didn't write this one: -------------- The above are your words and you already posted them so no need to hide yourself. The above claim about the Quran is false. Allah mentions warning of punishment but His Mercy is greater and prevails. Allah orders us to be merciful and loving and this has already been shared with you on other threads. ----------- that's belong to Syed Z. I only wrote this one: ------------- ..Affection Allah in the Quran is conditional, because if it's not conditional, then humans in their life will be free to follow what their will without any signs that can distinguish between good and bad, should or not etc... -------- Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 7:11pm
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Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 4:37pm
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Dear Saved,
Yes, I wrote that Allah�s love is conditional as mentioned in Quran 3:76. The love of Allah is given to: 1. All mankind who are obedient to Allah, their Messengers, and worship only to Allah, they will be loved by God. (Quran 3:31), etc. 2. All those who repent and then just worship to Allah, then they will be forgiven and receive the love of Allah. (Quran 16:119), etc. This verse opens the widest door for all sinners and perform faults, even though their sins have reached the ends of the sky. Prophet Muhammad said: "If you make mistakes (sins) and your fault reached the ends of the sky, then you repent, Allah SWT will give repentance to you." (Narrated by Ibn Majah from Abi Hurairah). 3. All mankind who don't know that there is a God who created this universe and its contents, but they are well behaved, then they will get the love of Allah, including innocent children. (Quran 33:5), etc. Prophet Muhammad said: "Verily Allah Almighty forgive mistakes unintentionally and errors due to forgetfulness and mistakes are forced to do." (From Ibn Abbas r.a.) Allah forgives all the sins of mankind, except for those who ascribed partners to Allah. (Quran 4:48) Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 5:16pm
The disciples that were killed for their faith in Jesus loved the unbelievers till the end like Jesus loved those that hated and denied him.
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Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 7:32pm
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Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 11:48pm
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Dear Saved,
In Islam that Allah is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful, as these words more than 100 times are found in the Quran. But not as easy as what we said, Allah will give His love to those who follow His commands. For those who don't run His commands, if they repent before death, and then worship to Allah, then their sins will be forgiven and Allah will love them. We can imagine if humans are not given the regulations and requirements in their live, they can do whatever their will freely. Although God has given His commandments to mankind, but they sometimes breaking such commandments. That's the purpose in Islam that God's love is conditional. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 7:43am
According to the gospel, Allah's love is unconditional and he knows that we won't be able to obey all the laws and regulations. If we break one of Allah's laws we are guilty of breaking all; for instance, the Scriptures say for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ out Lord. Ro. 3:23 and 6:23. If you live by the laws of Allah and expect to be judged by how well you do them, Allah will have to be just and reward you or anyone for failure, because no one has been able to keep all the laws of God perfectly. You would have to be perfect and only Jesus was perfect. The mercy and gift of God was to send us Jesus. If we reject God's gift of mercy, we'll be judged by the law. Remember according to the gospel it only takes one sin to separate you from God. That could be one lie, or stealing something or immorality and so one. For that we are judged and separated from God forever if we reject so great a salvation. Jesus predicted His death several times; look at Matthew 17. Jesus wasn't a false prophet. Islam makes the Jesus of the gospel appear as a false prophet, because it states he didn't die much less for our sin. IMHO, this is a plan of deception to judge our souls in the end when it is too late to make changes and repent so that Satan will claim us for hell and judgment. PBUY, Saved |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 23 November 2016 at 12:12pm
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Dear Saved,
You said: ------------------------------------------------------ the Scriptures say for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ out Lord. Ro. 3:23 and 6:23. ------------------------------------------------------ Do you mean that the sins of sinners will be redeemed by Jesus when they die? how their lives to the next ? And you said: ------------------------------------------------------ If you live by the laws of Allah and expect to be judged by how well you do them, Allah will have to be just and reward you or anyone for failure, because no one has been able to keep all the laws of God perfectly. You would have to be perfect and only Jesus was perfect. The mercy and gift of God was to send us Jesus. ------------------------------------------------------ No one can run all the commands of Allah perfectly, but Allah is the Wise, and He is scrupulous about all calculations. Therefore, humans only commanded to worship Him according to His laws, and only Allah has all determinants. So, whether they will succeed or fail in running all His commandments, only Allah knows it. And you said: ------------------------------------------------------ If we reject God's gift of mercy, we'll be judged by the law. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, we�ll be judged by the law, and I�ll be judged by Quran. And you said: -------------------------------------------------- Jesus predicted His death several times; look at Matthew 17. Jesus wasn't a false prophet. Islam makes the Jesus of the gospel appear as a false prophet, because it states he didn't die much less for our sin. -------------------------------------------------- I strongly believe that Jesus is not a false prophet, even Islam glorifies Jesus with all the advantages of his miracles. Jesus was saved not the opinion of Islam, but the word of Allah in the Quran 4:157-158. In Islam, all humans when they die will be responsible for everything they've done, while the Prophet Muhammad is just as intercessors (this also applies to all of Allah's Messengers), and the final decision only on Allah. And you said: ------------------------------------------- IMHO, this is a plan of deception to judge our souls in the end when it is too late to make changes and repent so that Satan will claim us for hell and judgment. ------------------------------------------ Allah, the angels, the Apostles, all religions in the world, and all people who don't make or change the laws of God, they don't make fraud. But that makes fraud is those who have made or changed the word of God with the will of their hearts. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Khan Amiri
Date Posted: 23 November 2016 at 2:39pm
| Excellent reading on this topic. There are some well versed members on here. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 10 December 2016 at 9:16am
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Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 18 December 2016 at 3:38pm
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Dear Saved,
In my opinion, if all the contents of Gospel now are still pure as the word of Allah, then Allah will not derive the Quran. Indeed, Muhammad has died, but he will give intercede on the day of calculation of human deeds in Mahsyar (a place after apocalypse). I will only get the grace and mercy directly from Allah, because only Allah who can give it. I had previously explained about Uthman and the Quran in this forum. If there are people do not believe in the Quran, it is their right not to believe, maybe even Muslims who still doubt about the Quran, it is their right. However I will not be separated from the Quran, why ? because the verses in the Quran has given miracles in my life experience, including that related to health, events that outside of science, etc. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 18 December 2016 at 7:11pm
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Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 01 January 2017 at 3:53pm
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Dear Saved,
Satan is always calling for evil and accidents, while the angels are always calling for the goodness and salvation. Then if I survived from a disaster, did satan operate in the supernatural realm? while such disaster occurs when I was reading the word of Allah. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 01 January 2017 at 4:39pm
Surviving disaster or falling into disaster are not indicators we are doing God's will. Satan often uses circumstances to deceive people into doing his will that is contrary to God. Satan can do nothing to me unless God gives him the permission. That is because I have Jesus living inside of me. He is the Word of Allah who was and is in flesh appearing! Not knowing Jesus puts us in spiritual turmoil and peril leaving us at the mercy of Satan who has no mercy, but only subtle deception. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 02 January 2017 at 2:51pm
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Dear Saved,
Sorry, I was in hurry, I mean "do badness" All religions acknowledge that Satan deceive people, do you consider that the word of God in the Quran I read is a trick of Satan? Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 02 January 2017 at 3:04pm
No problem, I understand. I read through these Quranic scriptures, and I would like to comment on this one first: 5:17: They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. We Christians understand Christ is the Word of Allah. He is the Word Allah used to create all things. He would never destroy His Word. That would be like the kingdom divided against itself. No Christian ever said Christ is Allah or the Father. We say God is one and Jesus is His Word; Muslims say Allah is one and Muhammad is his messenger. We can associate the Word of God to God Himself without committing idolatry but not a messenger; besides, how is it Muslims can consider Muhammad the messenger when the messenger was supposed to be Gabriel? Muhammad simply recited the messenger. How does that make him the messenger? Angel means messenger! To Christians Jesus is not a messenger; He is the Message. Lets look at 5:18: But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills..... I don't speak for the Jews, but the Christians never say Allah punishes us, because Jesus took the punishment we deserved on the cross. Those who don't have Jesus as their Savior pay for their own sins in the past, present and future because God is just. It will be a horrible deserved punishment and an eternal separation from all that is called Allah/God, the life, the truth, the way and the light and peace. I don't fear the Allah of the Quran because: Allah questions Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me... (He also says) they do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three." Allah alludes to a false trinity concept here about Christianity. That is an implied son, mother and father trinity and no Christian ever believed this concept. Also Allah thought that Christians consider him the third person of the trinity. That is wrong as well. All it takes is one discrepancy to convince me that I need not fear the Allah of Muhammad's Quran. The Holy Spirit is God, because God is not flesh and blood; He is Spirit and He is Holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit, but Muslim believe Gabriel is God's Holy Spirit. This is not correct, but I cannot help notice that Allah has a spirit according to the Quran. I have a spirit too. I was made in God's image and likeness as you all are. My spirit is the real me. I am a soul. I have a body and spirit. In my minds eye, Islam is mostly a reaction against Christianity. PBUY and Happy New Year 2017, Saved The Gospel states: https://www.openbible.info/topics/false_prophets |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 12 January 2017 at 8:05am
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Peace unto you. Saved, how are you? You sound like David Wood. It's a very long time I didn't visit this forum. Anyway, I did a quick brush true on this thread and it seems to you are doing well with your OPINION on the writings, don't forget there is a BIG DIFFERENCE from what is OPINION (IDEA) from what the message really says. Let me show you what I mean. You posted this as a reply:
And you mentioned there that Jesus (S) said: "No one comes to the father (Allah) except through me" What do you understand by that statement? Please explain. Thank you! Br. Zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 19 March 2017 at 10:44am
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