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Islam�s choice

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Topic: Islam�s choice
Posted By: Angel
Subject: Islam�s choice
Date Posted: 23 February 2006 at 6:46pm

http://www.catholic.org/ -

Islam�s choice

By Joseph Sinasac

2/9/2006

4

It wouldn�t be surprising if Christians indulged in a bit of schadenfreude regarding the worldwide Islamic outrage over offensive cartoons of the founder of their religion. After all, they have been there, too.

Christians have been quick to challenge such attacks when they�ve been the target. When the British Broadcasting Corporation broadcast the anti-Christian satire, �Jerry Springer: the Opera,� the BBC was flooded with letters opposing the decision and there were protests in the streets. When American photographer Andres Serrano was poking Christians in the eye in the 1990s with his Piss Christ and Piss Pope � photographs of Jesus and the Pope soaked in Serrano�s own urine � he received his own public shellacking. There have been protests and boycotts too numerous to mention over various movies, cartoons and public statements by celebrities. Sometimes these protests have been effective. Other times, not so much.

But the big difference between most of these public Christian reactions to insults to their religion, and the latest Muslim outburst is this: Christians were not burning consulates, or brandishing signs that said, �Behead those who insult Islam.� Nor were they chanting anything akin to �Denmark must be blown up,� and �Let the hands that drew (the cartoons) be severed.�

The difference is at the heart of how religion � any religion � can coexist with groups whose beliefs are at odds with one�s own in a pluralistic society. It is not an easy relationship, nor does it come without its price; Christians have learned this through many mistakes.

But mainstream religions in the West have been strengthened by coming to the realization that respect for their religion cannot be enforced by legal fiat or mob violence. It must be earned in the public square, which means that when you preach peace, you must behave as if you believe it.

This is not to make excuses for the publication in a Danish newspaper � followed by copycats in France, Norway and elsewhere � of crude cartoons depicting the founder of Islam, Mohammed, in various offensive guises. With free speech comes responsibility to use it wisely; in this case, the publication of the cartoons was grossly irresponsible as it seemingly had no other intent than to hurt and insult an entire religion.

But in free societies, the public square is a tough neighborhood. No one can guarantee they will never be offended. Mixed with all the responsible advocates of various ideologies and beliefs are snake-oil salesmen, false prophets and agents provocateurs.

Despite its flaws, however, a vigorous free speech and free press are still the best guarantors of religious freedom. We turn to censorship only with great caution, knowing that our cures may be worse than the disease.

Public debate can both enlighten and inflame; for their own good, religions have to learn how to navigate these treacherous waters while remaining true to their core beliefs. They must learn to respond assertively without responding in kind to the hatred and prejudice so often confronting people of faith in an aggressively anti-religious culture.

For most Muslims living in the West, this is not news and they are impressive at peaceful advocacy of their religion. But many co-religionists have much yet to learn.

- - -

Joseph Sinasac is publisher and editor in chief of The Catholic Register.

This editorial is republished with permission of The Catholic Register ( http://www.catholicregister.org/ - www.catholicregister.org ), the largest circulation Catholic newspaper in Canada, a Catholic Online Preferred Publishing Partner.

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=18644 - http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.ph p?id=18644



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~



Replies:
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 23 February 2006 at 7:45pm

"For most Muslims living in the West, this is not news and they are impressive at peaceful advocacy of their religion. But many co-religionists have much yet to learn. "

 

I guess the topic should have been "Muslim's Choice" and not the "Islam's Choice". It is only here that I must object to the author, despite his analysis is very quite relevent.



Posted By: human
Date Posted: 23 February 2006 at 10:08pm

Dear Angel,

Just like societies and people, religions too need to grow up and mature. I guess, Islam hasn't had the time, that Christianity, Jewish religion, Hinduism, Buddhism etc did, to mature. These religions grew up before their populations grew totally out of control and unfortunately Islam does not have that luxury. Muslims had their golden opportunity during the early second millennium but for reason they lost it. Now nothing short of a major revolution will change that, and given the breadth of the reach of Islam, that's truly a tall order.

Regards,

Human 



Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 23 February 2006 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by human human wrote:

Dear Angel,


Just like societies and people, religions too need to grow up and mature. I guess, Islam hasn't had the time, that Christianity, Jewish religion, Hinduism, Buddhism etc did, to mature. These religions grew up before their populations grew totally out of control and unfortunately Islam does not have that luxury. Muslims had their golden opportunity during the early second millennium but for�reason they lost it. Now�nothing short of a major revolution will change that, and given the breadth of�the reach of Islam, that's truly a tall order.


Regards,


Human�



by the word mature you mean contamination, rite ?


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 5:49am

Bismillah,

But the big difference between most of these public Christian reactions to insults to their religion, and the latest Muslim outburst is this: Christians were not burning consulates, or brandishing signs that said, �Behead those who insult Islam.� Nor were they chanting anything akin to �Denmark must be blown up,� and �Let the hands that drew (the cartoons) be severed.�

There are a lot of issues to be taken up in this post.  As to this paragraph and the sentiments in it:

First of all, you are wrong.  Many Christians do react violently to events in the news that are anti-Christian.  The Bible-belt is full of these stories.  The media does not play these stories up because it is not in their agenda to do so.  It is in the media's agenda, which is controlled (by whom exactly we all wonder) to incite violence in the Muslim lands such as Pakistan.

Don't forget the Muslims who are being massacered all the world over as we debate.  The Bosnians were massacered by Christians.  In Kashmir, the Hindu government contributes to Muslims' deaths regularly.  In Russia, Muslims couldnt worship and were persecuted by the population at large as well as the Communists.

At home in America, families have been harmed by some Christian, Jewish, atheitstic, gay, et cetera neighbors, our employers, schools, and agencies that should guard our civil rights but don't.  In reaction to what -- events that we have no control of or participation in like the hostages in Iran in '81, the Gulf war, and 9/11?

Stop blaming the whole Muslim world for reactionaries and political regimes' violence because we are not accountable for other peoples' behavior just as you are not responsible for the behavior of the Danish press in foolishly publishing trash in their paper, or born again Christians for attacking Muslims' homes and property in the West.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: JohnDM
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 6:00am
'born again Christians for attacking Muslims' homes and property in the
West."

What a load of rubbish!!!!!!

Born of the Spirit of God and as Temples of the Holy Ghost such
Christians do No such thing.

Sad to read such rotten propaganda from a senior member.

But then by the Fruit of Baghdad ye shall know them.

JDM




-------------
"Ignorance is no refuge"


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 6:49am
Originally posted by JohnDM JohnDM wrote:

'born again Christians for attacking Muslims' homes and property in the
West."

What a load of rubbish!!!!!!

Born of the Spirit of God and as Temples of the Holy Ghost such
Christians do No such thing.

Sad to read such rotten propaganda from a senior member.

But then by the Fruit of Baghdad ye shall know them.

JDM




You are a senior member too now, I wonder y? is it because you post useless crap like:
JDM/looney = propaganda*lies ?



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 7:35am

Bismillah,

Thanks Brother ak, Jazzak Allah Khayr!

I personally know people who have been attacked and have read stories of many more.  What are you talking about?  Would you like me to change my nickname so that I can be a newbie?  What difference does senior or newbie mean to the knowledge a person has or their responsibilities to be honest? 

This is not semantics for me.  I am living my life with my family in America being discriminated against each and every day.  Maybe you didn't hear about the violence against us.  But now you have.  Adjust your opinion accordingly!



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 7:39am

JohnDM, you must have a very sheltered life if you think born' agains aren't ignorant and they are all about peace and love.

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/antis/streetpreachers.html

Watch these videos, this is what Born again preachers do to my church ever year.  One even got ahold of some of our holy garments and threw them to the street and poured urine on them.  And when a member grabbed them and ran to stop the desecration, the Born Again preacher charged him with assault and won. 



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 8:31am

Bismillah,

I looked at some of this information, Sister Angela, and it's appalling!  And keep in mind, these are the things that the antagonizers have been seen and caught doing.  What about all the other things that they do such as vandalism of personal property and harrassing calls that they are rarely caught for?

What about the silent discrimination against kids in schools?  You know that this society is broken.  Why are you denfending it now?



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 8:52am

(Herjihad:) 'Stop blaming the whole Muslim world for reactionaries and political regimes� violence because we are not accountable for other peoples� behavior just as you are not responsible for the behavior of the Danish press in foolishly publishing trash in their paper, or born again Christians for attacking Muslims� homes and property in the West."

(JohnDM:
) �What a load of rubbish!!!!!!  Born of the Spirit of God and as Temples of the Holy Ghost such Christians do No such thing�

 

With respect, JohnDM, maybe those Christians don�t, but these Christians do, en bloc.  To cite another example, and a big one at that, if one orientates oneself east of the Dome of the Rock and points thereto (i.e., the west), one can read Gershom Gorenberg�s The End of Days: Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount and comprehend Herjihad�s statement all the more (even if one cares to dispute what is meant by �property� and how it is obtained). 

 

 

Serv

Ref:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195152050/002-1520390-9208048?v=glance&n=283155 - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195152050/002-1520390-9208 048?v=glance&n=283155



Posted By: JohnDM
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 8:57am
"JohnDM, you must have a very sheltered life"

I don't think so. Before I got involved with evangelical support in Australia
I was a support member of a Formula One motor racing team, and that
meant travelling to a different country every 11-12 days during the season.

So not a sheltered life.

JDM

PS

Wow! Peeing v. Suicide Bombers

-------------
"Ignorance is no refuge"


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 9:29am

So you condone bad behavior as long as someone isn't getting killed?  Make sure you click on the Extermination Order to see what your precious Christian brethern do in the name of God. 

Haun's Mill Massacre

Millstone at the site of the Haun's Mill Massacre on October 30, 1838. Seventeen Mormon civilians were killed in the raid. Photographer: George E. Anderson (1907).

by Alma R. Blair

On October 30, 1838, segments of the Missouri militia attacked a settlement of Latter-day Saints at Jacob Haun's mill, located on Shoal Creek in eastern Caldwell County, Missouri. Because the attack was unprovoked in a time of truce, had no specific authorization, and was made by a vastly superior force with unusual brutality, it has come to be known as "The Haun's Mill Massacre." It was one incident in the conflict between the Missourians and the Latter-day Saints that resulted in the LDS expulsion from the state in 1839 (see Missouri Conflict).

Tensions had been building up ever since the Latter-day Saints began moving into Caldwell and Daviess counties in central Missouri in 1836. From August to October 1838, incidents of overt conflict had grown dramatically. Rumors abounded that the Mormons planned to "despoil" the Missourians and take their land. Specifically, some believed that the Haun's Mill's population threatened to spill over into non-Mormon Livingston County. Outbursts of violence led Governor Lilburn W. Boggs on October 27 to issue an " http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/1831_1844/extermination_eom.htm - Extermination Order ," demanding that the Latter-day Saints leave the state or be exterminated. It is uncertain whether this order was a catalyst for the attack, but it is clear that both the Latter-day Saints and the Missourians believed that their rights had been violated and their existence threatened.

Thirty to forty LDS families were at Haun's Mill when some 200 to 250 militia from Livingston, Daviess, and Carroll counties, acting under Colonel Thomas Jennings, marched against the village. Assuming that an earlier truce still held, the residents were surprised by the late afternoon attack. Church leader David Evans' call for "quarter" was ignored, and the villagers were forced to flee for safety. The Mormon women and children fled south across a stream into the woods, while the men gathered in the blacksmith shop, but found it a poor place for defense because the Missourians were able to fire through the widely spaced logs directly into the group huddled inside.

Seventeen Latter-day Saints and one friendly non-Mormon were killed. Another thirteen were wounded, including one woman and a seven-year-old boy. No Missouri militiamen were killed, though three were wounded. Certain deaths were particularly offensive to the Saints. Seventy-eight-year-old Thomas McBride surrendered his musket to militiaman Jacob Rogers, who shot him, then hacked his body with a corn knife. William Reynolds discovered ten-year-old Sardius Smith hiding under the bellows and blew the top of the child's head off.

While women cared for the wounded, the men remained in hiding during the night. The dead were thrown into an unfinished well and lightly covered with dirt and straw. A few Missourians returned the next day, took plunder, and warned the remaining Saints to leave Missouri.

The 1838-39 Missouri judicial proceedings investigating the "Mormon War" largely ignored the events at Haun's Mill, but Latter-day Saints wrote numerous, bitter accounts. The Haun's Mill Massacre became embedded in the LDS psyche as an epitome of the cruel persecutions that they had endured.

(See http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/index.htm - Daily Living home page; http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/index.htm - Church History home page; http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/1831_1844/index.htm - 1831-1844 home page)

Bibliography

Blair, Alma R. "The Haun's Mill Massacre." BYU Studies 13 (Autumn 1972):62-67.

History of Caldwell and Livingston Counties, Missouri. St. Louis, 1886.

Johnson, Clark V. "Missouri Persecutions: The Petition of Isaac Leary." BYU Studies 23 (Winter 1983):94-103.

LeSueur, Stephen C. The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri. Columbia, Mo., 1987.

Times and Seasons 1 (1840):145-50.



Posted By: JohnDM
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 9:32am
No I don't - I just making a clear difference.

Sad

JDM

PS Come into the 21st century please!!!!!!!!!!

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"Ignorance is no refuge"


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 9:40am

So the three men who pulled a black man to his death behind a pickup in Texas who claim to belong to a Christian organization are not 21st Century.

  http://www.msnbc.com/modules/clinics/ - http://www.msnbc.com/modules/clinics/

What about Abortion Clinic bombings, people have died in those bombings?

And Suicide Bombers are not just a Muslim Phenomenon.

http://www.military.com/Opinions/0,,Hayden_072905,00.html - http://www.military.com/Opinions/0,,Hayden_072905,00.html

 

(adding this one....the best of them all)

http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006 - http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006



Posted By: JohnDM
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 10:08am
Born Again of God Christians do not act like this where "black man to his
death behind a pickup.`' And 99.99999% of Christians will agree with me.

Of course Mormons are not Christians although they imply such.

As to the business of a abortion which is wrong. But I don't think it is wrong
in spiritual a sense if kept down to no more than 18 weeks, in that I don't
think the spirit and soul enters the fetus cum baby until 126 days are
complete. (God knew such abortions would happen and hence the gap which
is so sensible number-wise for a 'man' enters in to human person).

JDM

-------------
"Ignorance is no refuge"


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 10:41am

�Wow! Peeing v. Suicide Bombers�

 

These people, JohnDM, the �Christian Zionists(1),� are an inordinately powerful bloc in what some consider the world�s remaining superpower, the USA.  In the main, and to the extent that this bloc is aware of it, they seem to approve of the neo-con �cabal(2)� which presently drives US foreign policy �think G. K. Chesterton�s Peace of Petrol- especially as that policy relates to the object of their momentary affection, the State of Israel, and to the Middle East in general.  They are high-tech, rich and have what the above-cited book by Gorenberg might describe as Armageddon breath.  In other words, they have weapons, material and carnal weapons, which are capable of inflicting and in fact do inflict more damage than urine or suicide bombs. 

 

As I see it, then, the equation might be re-stated:  �Wow!  Suicide bombers v. Hiroshima

 

Serv

 

Ref:

(1)     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_right#U.S._foreign_policy_and_Christian_Zionism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_right#U.S._foreign_po licy_and_Christian_Zionism

(2)     http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-wilkerson25oct25,0,7455395.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions - http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-wilkers on25oct25,0,7455395.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 10:42am

Originally posted by JohnDM JohnDM wrote:

Born Again of God Christians do not act like this where "black man to his
death behind a pickup.`' And 99.99999% of Christians will agree with me.

Of course Mormons are not Christians although they imply such.

JDM

Well, here's one for the mathematician....If there are 1.5 Billion Muslims in this world and there are an estimated 100,000 Al Qaida operatives according to Washington.  Lets add another 15,000 for the various other Islamic terror organizations and then another 25,000 for Political groups who just happen to be Muslim.  Now that is 140,000 terrorists?  Now, what percentage of Muslims are NOT Terrorists?  Estimated by myself to be around 9.3 to the -5th power.  That's .000093% are terrorists.  That's about the same as your 99.999999999% of Christians who would call the KKK unchristian. 

And as for Mormons.  There is only one Jesus Christ, who lived and died in Israel between 4 BC and 33 AD.  There is not other Christ.  Prophet, Messiah, Son of God.  He is the only one.  Therefore, how can you say that the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTERDAY SAINTS are not Christian.  I believe in Christ the Son of God, I was Baptised in his name.  I profess to him being my Savior and only through him can I get to the Father.  But, in that one statement, you just let me know what kind of Christian you are.  There is no implication in Mormonism.  I have the Words to the Living Christ and his picture on my wall.  Anyone who tells you differently about Mormons doesn't know anything about my denomination.



Posted By: Tim Evans
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 12:11pm
John, Are you a Freemason?

-------------
Tim in Britain


Posted By: JohnDM
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 1:51pm
No.

Mormons are NOT REAL Christians - think Golden Plates?

Jesus Christ was born at 2:30am October 1, 6BC, was baptised aged 32
years, and was crucified to death at 3:03am Friday, April 7, AD30 aged
12,607 days or 34.5168223 years.

And it seems that Jesus Christ gave up the Holy Ghost at 2:56pm (seven
minutes before natural death), for this time made him the Scape-goat of
all scape-goats.

Because the scape-goat has the reference 152 (Death at 19 x 8) and
1.520000e+35 x 1.520000e+35 x 2 and cube root twice and /12 months
is 34.516798 years x 365.242315 days (Earth's orbit in AD30) is
12,606.99524 days which is 3:56pm Good Friday, April 7, AD30 and
some 3 hours before the Passover and the Sabbath.

"Jesus cried out in a loud voice, �Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?� which means,
�My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46��

I agree with the theologians who say that Jesus was stating a theological
fact that the Father had forsaken Him while He was on the Cross. Because
the Father God had to leave his Son once his Son had become the
'Ultimate Scape-goat' and the magnificent spiritual body of the Holy
Ghost had left covering the soul of Jesus, who was now naked in the
natural and naked in the supernatural.

It all makes sense when counting.

JDM

PS
The Shepherd�s Goat Monument

I was intrigued by the challenge thrown down to all by Mr Oliver Lawn
(once of Bletchley Park, the famous British war time decoding centre) for
someone to solve the mystery of the lettering �D. M. - O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V.�
carved on the Shepherd�s Monument in the gardens of Shugborough
House, Staffordshire, England. So I began by establishing their value
using the standard numerical code for letters in Greek. Over the years I
noticed that ancient architects, and later the European artists, often
ensured there was a �measurement message� in their work, a message
read only by those who knew the number code, and so I say the goat
Shepherd�s Monument reveals the number �19� the number for Death and

The value of the letters �O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V." carved on the goat Shepherd�s
Monument at 1721 and the value of the letters "D. M.� is 44. So the goat
Shepherd�s Monument is equivalent to the Assassin�s reference number
190 x 190 x 190 x 19.00.

And the scape-goat at 152 gestation period is 19 x 8.


-------------
"Ignorance is no refuge"


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 2:11pm

So how do Golden Plates make me not Christian?  So we have the complete and restored Gospel.  Its still Christ, its still his teaching and its still Christianity.  The Roman Catholics have Maccabes, the Orthodox Christians have a number of other texts that are not in the King James version, but they are considered the original Christians. 

 



Posted By: Tim Evans
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 2:12pm

JohnDM,

You are wrong. D. M. - O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V.�  =

Dear Mother,

Over Use Of Sums Validates Anything Very Vaguely



-------------
Tim in Britain


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 2:12pm
Oh and just in case, I was raised in both the Methodist and Russian Orthodox traditions. 


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 3:51pm

Sis Angela,

You don't have to prove your faith to the "crazy numbers guy", God knows what is in your heart.  Let it be....

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 3:58pm

Okay Umm,  I'll let it go.  Its just burns me to see blatant ignorance of the realities of the world. 

Peace everyone.  I'm going to take a break for the weekend.

Allah Hafiz



Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 4:01pm

Yes, dear, it burns many of us.  This is the unfortunate reality of the state of the world today....

Have a nice weekend!

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~



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