a question for atheists
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Topic: a question for atheists
Posted By: Caringheart
Subject: a question for atheists
Date Posted: 28 April 2016 at 11:10pm
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Greetings, Any atheists on here; I am interested to know what does an atheist tell to their child when a loved one dies? Do they offer nothing of comfort to the child? Thanks and salaam. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Replies:
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 1:55am
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Alhamdolillah, I am not an atheist but I have often thought about the fact that the atheists have nothing to look forward to. No incentives to be morally right and ethical and have nothing to guarantee them everlasting happiness. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 7:03pm
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You do not need to be an atheist to realize that for them they first of all see it as the difference between telling a lie about a fantasy and the simple truth -- as much as a child can absorb. Also, there's an implication that death is bad -- when maybe it is just the way people react to death that is bad. In my experience both religious people and those without religion are saddened by death -- or not. Many atheists celebrate Christmas or other holidays, simply for the fun. Comforting a child can be done in many ways -- depending on the child and the maturity of the child. For instance, "we can tell all of our favorite stories of Grand Ma" or "Let's look at the pictures of Uncle Fred and remember how much fun we had." I would be for more worried a child would find out about the Islamic vision of Hell fire and Damnation. THAT IS SCARY to those who come to believe in it. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 6:28am
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I thought I would post this as an example of a Humanist funeral reading; How do We Let A Mother Go How do we let a mother go? But there is peace too. peace and acceptance and overwhelming love
that we maybe weren't aware of. waves and waves of conflicting emotion, And there's gratitude.. so much of that, that we had you, such a
wonderful mother...Bright and shining, nobody's fool, independent, but
humble too; This may be a final tribute, From http://www.funeralhelper.org/funeral-readings/non-religious-funeral-readings.html I think we should view death as a reminder to live our own lives. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 07 May 2016 at 12:58pm
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@Caringheart
I will tell you what I told my 10y old son when my father passed away: He's gone, we will never meet him again. Try to memorize the stories you know and experienced about him, they are and will be part your history and self-understanding. We all die every day, things we considered as important yesterday may not be important today anymore. Intense memories you had yesterday may be much less intense or even forgotten today. Forgetting is the brother of death. Every piece of information we lose is a little death, or call it transformation rather. You know the [German] proverb: "every goodbye/farewell is a little death". The biological death is just the end of this transformation. Although he has passed away, in a certain sense he is still alive and he sits right in front of you [my son]. When I look in the mirror, when I watch myself doing certain things I realize that I am more my own father than I want[ed] it to be. His life was not in vain, it brought me to life and eventually you as well. He is literally part of us. We are all mortal, but we have two weapons of defense: The first and by far the most powerful one is having children. They will live on as we die and they are the closest copy of ourselves we can get. The second one are the people around us. The more we exchange [with them] the more traces we leave [of ourselves]. This is one of the many reason why friends are important. I didn't stop there but it may give you the general picture.... May be I should give you my view on death. I do paragliding (in the US you call this parasailing sometimes). If you see a tree in the middle of your landing field you have several options: A) You concentrate on the tree. In this case you are likely to hit it [there are many studies about the famous self-fulfilling prophecies] B) You ignore it. The likelihood to hit it is again very high but for different reasons. C) You realize its presence, you integrate it in your flight strategy but you do not get overwhelmed by it. I try to stick to C). Now, Caringheart, may I ask you two counter-questions: The first one is about resurrection: If I get resurrected, which Airmano will be resurrected: The toddler, the little boy I was at the age of ten the youngster later or may be the Alzheimer debilitated person I may be one day. This is not a rhetorical question: I have changed direction so many times in my life that I dare to say that a normal 10 year old boy is closer to what I was at the age of ten than I am now to my 10 y old ancient ego. (I hope this sentence is understandable). Please don't chicken out in your reply by telling me stories of "the soul being the essence of a being": again, I see myself as a different person than the one I was when I was a toddler. My second question is even more vicious [and I address this one explicitly to our Muslim friends as well]: I don't know whether you have kids or not. Let's assume you have. You end up in heaven but one or more of your kids end up in hell. Heaven is supposed to be a place of eternal happiness. Honestly, could you be happy knowing that some of your children get tortured every second till eternity ? A frightening thought, either way. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 8:25am
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I thought I would post this as an example of a Humanist funeral reading;
How do We Let A Mother Go How do we let a mother go? How do we say "I'm ready now to go on without you"? How can we ever have a clue of what that really means? And of a sudden the moment is upon us, and there's no turning back. And then we know what grief is,... and guilt and love and things undone. Try to prepare and we will fail in some way, be it subtle or looming.... But there is peace too. peace and acceptance and overwhelming love that we maybe weren't aware of. waves and waves of conflicting emotion, And laughter too, and memories we hadn't bothered lately to recall come flooding back in shared company.. and it's all about you mum... And there's gratitude.. so much of that, that we had you, such a wonderful mother...Bright and shining, nobody's fool, independent, but humble too; Smart, and kind, and fun. Adventurous.. A part of you has passed away, but much is carried everyday within us, and will as long as we are here. This may be a final tribute, A day to celebrate your life and say goodbyes; But it's not final. Every day I'll celebrate in some way, just by the virtue of how you shaped my life, The absolute and incredible fortune that I knew you. As a mother, a friend and a woman. From http://www.funeralhelper.org/funeral-readings/non-religious-funeral-readings.html I think we should view death as a reminder to live our own lives. It is, without a doubt, a beautiful tribute and remembrance of a Mother. It is very emotional and it expresses several sentiments. All so close to divine commandments But without any reference to Him.. I do find that some of the thoughts expressed here could not be inspired by a God-less world. The great sentiment among humans, love, I think can be inspired by God only. We should view death as a landmark in a journey. Death is not the end of the journey. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 2:09pm
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"...sentiments here could not be inspired by a God-less world. The great sentiment among humans, love, I think can be inspired by God only." There is nothing wrong with this belief, and it is your belief, but it is also without evidence. This is in fact the essence of religion in contrast to science: At it's core, Religion is belief without evidence. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 10:40pm
Greetings Airmano, Your reply sounds very spiritual. Your questions are very difficult. I have pondered on the second before... and it is what grieves a parents heart so much to see a child gone astray. I don't believe that I have answers for either of your questions. If any comes to me I will be back.  Now I have another question though... What brings an atheist to a forum such as this? Note: I can say this... I can clearly see two forces at work in the world... so I must also believe that there are two destinations that can be reached at the end of the journey through this world. (that was just given to me) ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
airmano wrote:Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 3:10am
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Tim, After I posted my initial response I realized that because of your specific set of beliefs you could not offer your mother any solace or assurance about how God Almighty will take care of her. Because He is merciful and kind and powerful and loving. Out in the unknown she would alone, desolate, fearful but you have nothing to offer to her.
That according to me is a terrible helplessness of a loving son. For example, I pray to God for my mother. For His care and mercy and love. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 3:14am
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There is nothing wrong with this belief, and it is your belief, but it is also without evidence.
There are so many things which are just felt. They are neither physically seen nor felt. I do not need any evidence of God for the love He has inspired in me. This is in fact the essence of religion in contrast to science: At it's core, Religion is belief without evidence. But science is not permanent. Today it claims something but tomorrow, we know, it can say something else. OTOH, God Almighty is permanent, His values do not change. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 12:30pm
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delme ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 12:30pm
May be, but fact is that religions are even less permanent. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 1:25am
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May be, but fact is that religions are even less permanent.
Religion of Islam is very, very unchanging. It has remained constant ever since it was revealed. Science is fickle depending on its latest findings. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 1:34am
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delme
Who or what is it? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 1:55am
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The word "fickle" doesn't mean what you think it means -- or you are misusing it. Definition: likely to change, especially due to caprice, irresolution, or instability; casually changeable Science doesn't changes, but almost always for a reason based on evidence. Changes due to bad evidence or invalid reason are reversed. Science doesn't claim the final truth but rather works assiduously towards that truth. As you say, (most traditional) religion remains generally stuck in the the understanding and assumptions of people long dead and who were quite ignorant of the reality of the world. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 3:04am
What we call science started with the greeks about 2500y ago. Islam started 1400y ago. Winner: Guess who! Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 4:42pm
Pretty annoying that my posts take 3 days longer than everyone else's. 
------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 1:21am
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> science started ....2500 years ago This misses the point that the science of today would be totally unrecognizable to one of those Greek scientists of 1500 BC since very little of modern science is dependent on the ignorance of that time. Even the principles of the scientific method didn't get largely developed until perhaps 1500 years after that time (some 2000 years ago.) Science is designed to change. Religion is designed to remain the same. Sometimes both partially fail at these goals but all in all they are designed with this difference in mind. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 1:30am
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> Why would atheists visit this forum? Of course everyone had their own individual reasons and likely even the Muslims here come for different reasons among themselves. I don't speak for atheists but being neither a Muslim, Christian, nor Jew my answer my be useful to you. My interests include the study of Arabic and Islam in specific and history in general. My original questions on visiting here were concerning historical sources for daily life in Mecca & Yathrib/Medina at the time of Muhammad, as well as a search for maps, even best guess reconstructions, of those towns and the battle fought during his life. What did the people eat? Where did they get or grow it? How did they their trade really work. And especially how did the Meccans survive on what seems to be so little water -- few water sources -- for 5000-8000 people. Yathrib/Medina is a lot easier to understand, but that the pagan Arabs even lived in Mecca is almost impossible to accept. There is a little bit of this in the Sunnah (Sirah and Hadeeth but only a few concrete glimpses.) It turns out that solid information on pre-Islamic Hejaz is almost unknown and it is actually hard to find anything contemporary about even Muhammad and the birth of Islam. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 1:59pm
I do not see any need to have a god to inspire great words or understanding symapthy. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 2:05pm
I am on this forum because I see a world where religion odes great harm especially the harm done by the separation of Muslims within western society and indeed the separation of the Islamic world from the rest of the world's culture. I want to break that wall of wrong understanding about the ideas of the modern world. I think that the more discussions there are between the religious and anybody of any sort of different religious view the more wide s the natural tollerance of all those taking part. By that I mean, for example, that which ever branch of Islam you are in your tollerance of the other branch will be a lot more after 10 exchanges with the likes of me. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 2:09pm
Do you have any evidence that; 1, there is more to awareness of a human than there is action in a computer program when the computer is destroyed? 2, why do you think such an existance would be different if you did or did not ask a god to help out for them? Did such asking work before they died? |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 5:20pm
Odd, (most of) mine are moderated but they usually appear within 12-24 hours. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 12:46pm
Sure, but I wrote "started". That the modern Quantum Mechanical view is light years away from the greek roots is obvious. However, if you look at http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/greeks/scientists.html - what the greek thinkers already did 2500 y ago one can hardly deny their profound contribution if not even foundation to this process. Having said so it is also clear that there are even older roots like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_astronomy - Babylonians such that taking the greek as a starting point may look somewhat artificial. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 1:11pm
That's ok, as you can see our Muslim friends did not answer http://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36058&PID=204184#204184 - my questions either, although I explicitly asked for it. I would nevertheless like to add a comment to your question: "What do Atheist say to comfort a child when a close person dies". Obviously the underlying suspicion is that Atheist have no [real] comfort to offer. I know that in many religious forums (and this one is no exception to this rule) atheist are seen as heartless, arrogant and immune to any "spiritual" thinking (whatever that may mean in detail). I dare to say that I am by no means less 'sentimental' than an average human being and the death of a dear person I knew well grieves me as much as any other person in this world. But back to the point: If you go to the end of your[?] logic, things are even worse. What amazes me when talking to Muslims and to a lesser extend with Christians is the way they deal with hell. Taking this construction seriously you would have to admit that the person which died (as well as yourself) may also end up in hell (especially in the Muslim world where the Lord "does as he pleases"). I guess that you tell a child that the person that has passed away is now in heaven where one day we will meet him again. However, excluding [the possibility of] hell looks to me like the attitude many people adopt towards cancer: It is sure a dreadful disease but it will not hit me [and if there is any justice in the world it is the naughty neighbour and his silly barking dog that will get it]. Same with hell, it can't be me [because I have chosen the right religion, I am a nice chap anyway and I love my kids and so on]. But again: What do you answer a kid that understood the concept of heaven and hell and insists: But what if he does end up in hell ? Try to find a comforting answer which takes the child's question seriously and which goes beyond "I don't think that this is going to happen". I think this is the moment you'd be in real trouble with your concept - at least if you are honest. --------------------------------------------------
Well, first I wrote already several times that I'm not an atheist but agnostic. On a practical level this makes me look like an atheist but I insist on the distinction nevertheless. To answer your question: A friend of mine works as a teacher and one day she told me the case of a Muslim girl that asked her to read a text she had written for school (the girl was none of her pupils) and to give her her opinion about it. So she did her the favour. As she read it she was stunned to see the repeated claim that "all that modern knowledge has to offer is already outlined in the Quran" and she told me about it. As already mentioned elsewhere I work in science, so this claim made me curious. To use the Muslim expression: I approached the subject with an open heart. If the claims had been true I would have had no problem in turning into a Muslim myself. However, when I started to discuss these miracles with Muslims I almost fell of my chair when I saw the "shallowness" of the 'Quranic miracles'. I also read the Quran and, unfortunately, this didn't make my frustration go away - quite the opposite. In the meantime I have ditched all these miracles as utter nonsense, but I got intrigued by the psychological side of it: How far can people deny reality against all evidence just to save a prefabricated thinking ? Why ? (Take Abu Loren or 'The Saints' "Two hearts story" as examples). To reformulate this question more widely: What do people lose and/or win if they [don't] change their mind (especially when it comes to religion) ? In a nutshell the answer to your question is simply: "Curiosity" ! Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 3:11pm
Greetings Ringer, My reply to airmano got left all the way back on page 1 and therefore I don' think he ever saw it. Thanks for your reply, btw. I enjoyed reading it. Not, I imagine, that you will ever see this.  asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 15 May 2016 at 6:34am
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What we call science started with the greeks about 2500y ago.
Islam started 1400y ago. Winner: Guess who! Your childish win and lose equations are pathetic! We both know that know that scientific knowledge keeps changing based on the latest findings. As such what science held to be true got nixed later. But not so with the Quran. No facts are changed. Only people's understanding of it gets better and better as they become erudite. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 3:39am
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The word "fickle" doesn't mean what you think it means -- or you are misusing it.
Definition: likely to change, especially due to caprice, irresolution, or instability; casually changeable Science is changeable because it is continuously learning. It cannot claim for a certainty that its findings on a particular day are final and irreversible. But the divine being is all knowing. It is not learning in bits and pieces. Science otoh is!Science is changeable because it is continuously learning. It cannot claim for a certainty that its findings on a particular day are final and irreversible. But the diving being is all knowing. It is not learning in bits and pieces. Science otoh is! As you say, (most traditional) religion remains generally stuck in the the understanding and assumptions of people long dead and who were quite ignorant of the reality of the world. I am concerned primarily with Islam here. It is divine and original and its sources the Quran is eternally true valid for all times. It is verifiable against scientific truth. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 3:42am
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I do not see any need to have a god to inspire great words or understanding symapthy.
You do not see, you say. You do not know, I say. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 3:58am
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It turns out that solid information on pre-Islamic Hejaz is almost unknown and it is actually hard to find anything contemporary about even Muhammad and the birth of Islam.
Go here: http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/muhammad.html Or http://www.britannica.com/biography/Muhammad There are more sources, if you need them. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 4:41am
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Do you have any evidence that;
1, there is more to awareness of a human than there is action in a computer program when the computer is destroyed? A human is driven by a soul which lives on even after the human dies. 2, why do you think such an existance would be different if you did or did not ask a god to help out for them? Did such asking work before they died? God Almighty can do anything. Most of the times He gives us what we ask Him for. At other times He does not. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 4:17pm
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and still, my replies go unposted... even though this is a thread I have started.  ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 11:12pm
Greetings Airmano, Nice to hear from you. I see your reply was simply held up, same as mine are. I will begin by saying that I always have difficulty remembering what it is to be agnostic. So, you believe in a Creator(or God) but you do not believe in heaven or hell? I am curious what does an agnostic rely on for his beliefs? I am assuming you reject the Judeo and Christian scriptures? Do you believe in Yshwe (known as Jesus)? Now onto your statement; "the underlying suspicion is that Atheist have no [real] comfort to offer. " I actually asked the question our of a real curiosity, because I know that as Christians we tell children that the loved one has gone to heaven as a means of comfort. Children always ask these questions that are hard to answer. You look into that sweet innocent face of the child and you don't want to do anything to harm that innocence. So it made me wonder what would an atheist say to their child. Some children get really freaked out if they think their loved one is lying in the ground getting eaten by bugs and worms. For some children this is a horrible thought, so it is a pleasant thing to allow them to believe that the person they loved is no longer in the body but has gone to a beautiful place. I believe parents tell their children these things because it protects the psyche of the child. I wonder if it isn't harmful when an atheist can not offer such comfort. By no means do I think that atheists are "... heartless, arrogant and immune to any "spiritual" thinking" On the contrary, I believe even those who call themselves atheists have a knowing that there is something more... it is a thing born in us. I think atheists just choose to deny this inner knowing. I don't honestly think anyone goes to their grave as an atheist. I believe that when they are actually faced with the end of their life, they realize that they do believe. Specifically I have written: ... there are no 'true' atheists... for what is known has been made known to us through the Creator. (without this there would be no morality) To be an atheist is merely to reject the Creator... in order to choose one's own ways... to be one's own 'god'. Thanks for your replies. I always enjoy reading them. asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 8:43am
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There is nothing wrong with this belief, and it is your belief, but it is also without evidence.
What kind of evidence is sought? After all a belief is just that. But even beliefs are not blind. This is in fact the essence of religion in contrast to science: At it's core, Religion is belief without evidence. And you suppose that science is belief with evidence? But I am sure it is realized that evidences that science relies on are temporary until research or accident discovers something that negates its earlier stand? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 4:23pm
Actually I do see it, and many others from you though I can't say how much delay of if I see them all. It is an issue for others "noticing your post" in a large thread since it gets posted with the TIME of the actual posting, not when it is approved and actually shown. Most people will go to the end and check backwards for a large, active topic thread and may not notice. Maybe the kind administrators will reach a point where they trust us and cease the moderation. Although they have been timely in my posts as far as I can tell. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 4:31pm
I do appreciate your attempt to help but these are just summaries of what is available in the Sirat Rasul Allah and the Hadeeth. There really is nothing specific to Muhammad from withing 50 to 100 years of his death (or longer) but that is not my real request now. Everyone who studies Islam knows about this problem of no contemporary sources. What I am seeking now, is anything about daily life and the people of Western Arabia before, during or shortly after that time. There doesn't seem to be much of this either. If you have more, please post the links -- I will go visit no matter how slight the chance of finding more..... ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 9:11pm
Greetings Ringer, It is what I hope for... free, easy, and open discussion without the delays. If anyone gets belligerent it is easy enough to report and then take action. asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 19 May 2016 at 12:37pm
Well, I tell you what it means to me: neither the existence nor the non-existence of an [almighty] God can be proven. Actually, non-existence can https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/145/Proving_Non_Existence - generally not be proven. (You may also have heard of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russells_teapot - celestial teapot) . Simply because I can not exclude the existence of a creator I must consider it as a possibility. Having said so I do refuse (again on purely logical ground) the concept of an almighty creator since this leads to logical contradictions which are beyond any acceptability. This leaves us with a wealth of possible creators: First of course the standard ones (without almightiness): Jesus, Allah, Yahweh a Superprogrammer, Zeus, Wotan, Thor, Baal Hammon, Ra, Amma and so on. Besides them (and already much more likely) a god which created the world for different reasons than just "because he likes us", including reasons we cannot even imagine (even wicked ones). Last not least the atheistic viewpoint (which I estimate to be the most likely one): a system of everlasting underlying physical laws which eventually lead to our (and possibly other) Universe(s). Looking at the "big three": I admittedly do not know much about the Jewish religion but it sends shivers down my spine when I hear "chosen people". From the remaining two: Christianity and Islam I admittedly hold Christianity in a higher esteem (watch out this is a relative scale). The logic is quite simple: Islam has been "made" by a person who claimed to be the messenger of god. His personal interest in this story is all too obvious and the 'prove' he gave (the Quran) is -at least for me- a rather uninspiring collection of copy and paste. Needless to say that the only "testimony" is Mohammed himself. Christianity has a bit more to offer: I do think that Jesus really did exist and that he was crucified (actually almost all historians agree on this fact and the reasons why Mohamed denies this core event are again rather obvious). Nevertheless Jesus always remained very vague about him being [the son of] God. Here I actually support the Muslim view (as him being rather a "prophet" than 'God'). The key event is of course [the supposed] resurrection and if this was true Christianity would really hold a trump card leaving all other religions in the dust. The historical sources are however rather weak about this subject and I suspect a very strong self-interest of the "decapitated" young Christian sect in making "Jesus alive again". Let's put it in other words: If Jesus had really been resurrected it would have been easy for him to convince. For example by showing up in the streets of Jerusalem [where he was rather well known], go and have a Pint with Pilatus and have a little but severe discussion with the high priests. He didn't. Independent witnesses is the keyword. By the way, about 75% of the world population does not get convinced by this story either. So just to cut a long story short: I find none of these concepts plausible. If a god exists (what I doubt but not exclude) I don't have any reason to believe that he cares about me in any particular way. In this sense it is just not relevant to my daily life and only of philosophical interest... I'm running out of time so very quickly on the soul: Would you remember the time before your birth ? If not, why not ?[since your soul is supposed to have existed before]. How do you reconcile the soul concept with the fact that the human brain can almost be freely manipulated with drugs and psychological tricks ? Again how do you reconcile the concept of soul [and free will] knowing that people can change for the worse (or the better) upon strokes, post war syndromes, brain cancer and so on ? Last not least, knowing that many animals [i.e. the higher mammals] have almost the same psychological spectrum as we have [anger, sadness, mourning even altruism and so on]: Do they have a soul as well in your eyes ? ---------------------------------------------------
Now: Can you explain me why an atheist can not have any morality ? This "claim" gets repeated like a prayer mill and I never really understood on which ground. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 May 2016 at 9:45pm
Greetings Airmano, I have decided it is easier to reply without quoting your whole post. Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Here is mine. You said; " a system of everlasting underlying physical laws which eventually lead to our (and possibly other) Universe(s). "If I adhered to that then I would have to believe that we are nothing at all. Without purpose, we are nothing. I don't think I could even consider our existence. If we are a system, something created that system. Regarding your questions about the soul: I think the soul does retain memory.... just not conscious memory... not in this realm.... possibly in a higher realm... when we reach the 'heavenly realm'... 'for we see now only as in a glass darkly, but then we will know in full' (even as we are known) I believe those words. As regards animals.... it is just one more reason to believe in a Creator... each creature created according to the Creator's own purpose and design... a Creator that sees so much more than we do, because after all, we are only a small part of the design. (Does the flower on one end of a quilt know about the bird at the other end?) Everything created for a purpose and to fulfill the design. Like any artist that creates a work of art. It has form, it has purpose, it has a message, it has a design.... whether it be literary, visual, mechanical, scientific, technological.... and so on and so forth.... As far as atheists and morality... I think they do have morality... and I think this is just one more testament to a Creator. All morality is given to us through the One who created us, otherwise it would not exist.... there would be no reason for it to exist. Morality has purpose. If we weren't created for a purpose then killing would not matter... kindness would not matter... morality would not matter. Life would not matter, because life would have no purpose, and if life were to die off it would not matter... there'd be nothing to ever testify to it's existence at all, and does life even go on, if there is no purpose. Is there really any life, without purpose? asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 20 May 2016 at 2:35am
What evidence do you have for this soul thing? And again, what evidence do you have that God gives you what you want more than the world works in general? |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 20 May 2016 at 8:48pm
|
> Can one have morality without religion? Yes, unless one starts by defining morality as somehow being based in religious doctrine or philosophy, then anyone, of any religion or none at all, can have a morality. IF you take the definition of 'morality' to be religious -- or connected to religion -- then instead anyone can have "ethics": their own beliefs about what it is right to do, and not do. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 23 May 2016 at 1:01pm
Much better anyway, for myself I only copy and paste what I consider as relevant. ---------------------------------
I can understand the wish that the meaning of my live has been defined and given by somebody "above me". Just as a child finds comfort in the thought that he is a wanted child. But what modern science really tells us is that feelings are not truth. And things we may even consider as sure and obvious are not necessarily so. In the end you don't escape the problem anyway: The question "why does god want our existence" and "why does he want us to be good" gets usually avoided (but not answered) by saying: That's just the way he [God] is. I find this answer too shallow, in the end it is not even an answer because it does not survive to the question: "But why is God so ?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now to my questions about "soul" . I have the feeling that you didn't really answer them. On my question: "Would you remember the time before your birth ? " you wrote: 'I think the soul does retain memory.... just not conscious memory'. If I take your statement by its essence I would conclude that the soul has probably no consciousness. But what worth is an unconscious soul ? Would God judge me for things I do not even remember ? Also about animals: I did not really get what you mean: Would [some ?] animals finally have a soul [or not] in your opinion ? More about atheism and Moral once I have more time. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 24 May 2016 at 4:12am
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I do appreciate your attempt to help but these are just summaries of what is available in the Sirat Rasul Allah and the Hadeeth.
There really is nothing specific to Muhammad from withing 50 to 100 years of his death (or longer) but that is not my real request now. Everyone who studies Islam knows about this problem of no contemporary sources. What I am seeking now, is anything about daily life and the people of Western Arabia before, during or shortly after that time. There doesn't seem to be much of this either. I am sure there are records and contemporary literature which carry such details as you seek. Perhaps, you do not have access to them. Have tried to read a biography of the Prophet PBUH? If you have more, please post the links -- I will go visit no matter how slight the chance of finding more..... Let me see what I can find for you on the web. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 24 May 2016 at 7:55am
|
What evidence do you have for this soul thing?
The command to purify our hearts from sin was an essential Islamic teaching ever since the early stages of the revelation in Makkah. This is known as 'purification of the soul' Allah said: "He has succeeded who purifies the soul, and he has failed who corrupts the soul." (Qur'an, 91:9-10) This idea sounds logical to me. Because I feel guilty when I commit a sin. And I feel at peace once I have repented. In the secular domain we have_ http://www.zmescience.com/science/science-explains-our-soul/ and http://www.robertlanza.com/do-we-have-a-soul-a-scientific-answer/ And again, what evidence do you have that God gives you what you want more than the world works in general? My prayers are answered more often than not. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 May 2016 at 6:32pm
Greetings Airmano, We can not know if an animal has a soul because they do not have the skills of communication... but... what makes us different from the animals if not this higher consciousness... this 'soul'? Do animals ponder their existence? I think not. Do humans ponder their existence? I have, ever since I was a small child... this is that inner knowing of which I speak. We are born with a knowing, and a questioning... a thing that I do not believe animals have. I believe this is the soul... the way that we are 'made in the image of the One who created'. What constitutes a soul? Is it not that thing that sets us apart? 'God is so', because it is what is best for us. God does not 'want us to be good'; He tells us what is the best way for us. He cares for us. In the presence of the Creator is only purity. The heavenly realm, where the Creator wants us to be rejoined with Him is the essence of purity. It is that place which calls to the heart, making us long for more. It is why 'only as little children' can we gain entrance into the presence of the Lord. Our soul is that part of ourselves calling out for home. The wise recognize that they can only be filled by acknowledging, and having, a relationship with their Creator... that the things of the earth can never fill them. Those that think the things of earth can fill them, spend their lives chasing an illusive thing which can never be held for very long, so they spend their entire life chasing. Those who know God find peace... an end to the chasing, because the Creator... He is the pursuer... the pursuer of the hearts of His creation. When we find this we easily fall into obedience to the Creator, seeing that His way brings peace, the end to chasing, that we are looking for. asalaam and blessings to you, CAringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 25 May 2016 at 1:25pm
From what and how you write I am sure you would have become a devout Muslim if you had grown up in Arabia 
May be this https://www.newscientist.com/article/2089522-monkey-seen-caring-for-dying-mate-then-grieving-after-she-dies/ - article/film makes you change your mind about animals and 'soul'. I never saw you expressing yourself about Evolution Theory (ET). The status of knowledge is such that one can call ET an as much established fact as a round earth. Since we evolved out of the biological family of apes (who are animals): From which moment on did our ancestors have a soul in your eyes ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 26 May 2016 at 11:44pm
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The overwhelming majority of people -- virtually everyone actually -- grow up to follow the religion of their parents. (Almost all) People believe what they are told -- no matter what it is. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 28 May 2016 at 2:14am
I need actual evidence for the existance of this soul thing not evidence of somebody talking about it. I have talked about it when I'm being a bit dramatic. It does not mean that it is a real thing. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 28 May 2016 at 4:50am
|
From what and how you write I am sure you would have become a devout Muslim if you had grown up in Arabia
There are millions of devout Muslims all over the world, Mr Airmano. May be this article/film makes you change your mind about animals and 'soul'. Unfortunately, the link takes you to a page which requires subscription. The status of knowledge is such that one can call ET an as much established fact as a round earth. Really? Tell me more or point me to a link. Since we evolved out of the biological family of apes (who are animals): From which moment on did our ancestors have a soul in your eyes ? You may have evolved from the Apes but I have not. However do not forget what you admitted here. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 28 May 2016 at 4:52am
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But when one grows-up he/she has the right and duty to onesself to study that religion anew, logically. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 28 May 2016 at 5:26am
I did already but may be you didn't know how to google for it. For convenience I give you the link to the most prominent scientific journals: http://www.sciencemag.org/ - Science and http://www.nature.com/index.html - Nature . Typing "evolution" I got 76247 entries in Nature and 38935 in 'Science' (On the 'Science' Homepage, Click on "Research Journals" first). Then start to read ! ---------------------------------------------------
May be, but I better do not even try to imagine which animal you evolved from.
Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 28 May 2016 at 6:05am
Do you really consider the science of evolution to be false? Do you really want to say that all the evidence that shows us how we came to be through the very long history of earth is somehow a plant? A falsified record? That God has planted the fossils? |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 May 2016 at 5:16pm
Greetings Airmano, The falseness of Darwinism has been proven. The methods of Darwin have been proven to be unreliable. His theories are, with every passing day, being more and more rejected. ... but because you were taught to believe in it, in school, you believe it still to be true. 'and in their (own) wisdom (believing the things taught by men, and turning from God) they become fools' asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 1:55am
Wrong. The theory of evolution is more and more proven due to the mountain of evidence to support it and the absolute lack of evidence to refute it. It's obvious simplicity and lack of any need for external interferance to explain the divergence of life forms and the constant appearance of new species makes it very robust. It is used to predict the pattern of change of disease and to make planning decisions that allow the western world to have in place stratagies to counter diseases which have not yet arrisen such as bird flue. Bird flue is in the general bird population. The proximity of humans to lots of birds, particularly in South East Aisa, means that it will jump species and evolve the ability to be transmitted between humans at some point. But we have already studied the likely forms of such a virus and have built structures of medical science which are likely to be able to counter this new disease without the otherwise hundreds of millions of deaths. Looking at the real world and wishing to understand how it works makes us more powerful. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying LaLaLaLa... results in you being more st**id than you should be. |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 5:30am
Sorry, Caring Heart, but there is no sense whatsoever in which Darwin's "Theory of Natural Selection" has been proven false. Small corrections and additions have been made to it but this has stood amazing well on it's own. As one of the two pillars (with genetics/DNA) of modern biology, were it to be proven substantial incorrect most of biology, including much of modern medicine, would have to fall with it. I have in fact read some of the so-call refutations and they invariably miss the point, arguing against straw men or against things that Darwin (et all) never claimed. It is even more amazing when you consider that he developed this theory to explain the facts of evolution without knowledge of genetics. Everything since in biology has just confirmed his prescience. By the way, "Evolution" itself is not theory, but rather a set of simple facts (millions and millions of them) which The Theory of Natural Selection explains. Even scientists sometimes miss this distinction due to the slippery meanings of words. Natural Selection itself is a "Theory" in the same sense that Einstein's "General Theory of Relativity" is a (well-tested) theory that explains gravity and acceleration, or that Quantum Theory explains the facts of particle physics. Were you to feel open minded about this, I would strongly suggest you read any of Stephen J. Gould's popular books which will make it very clear. If you wish to deny reality then please proceed, but there is no advantage in that. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 5:59am
I do not mind people being religious, but I do mind when religious principles are held up against reality. In this sense there is absolutely no difference between Islamic and Christian fundamentalism. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 2:18pm
|
I refuse to believe that life is pointless. Anyone with a soul, knows that it isn't. Now is it possible that there are people walking the earth that do not have a soul? Sure... they are the demons.... but a demon wouldn't waste their time with these conversations. To be an atheist, you'd have to not have a soul... and if you did not have a soul you would not care about anything... you would be one of the demons... and even the demons believe. So I don't believe that there is any such thing as a true atheist. There are only those who deny God, because they find it impossible to accept God, because they want to be their own gods.... which means we would end up with a world full of demi-gods, and false gods, walking around.... a world where there were no rules, and no bounds, because everyone thinks it's ok to be their own god, and of course that would mean something different for everyone. This is just the type of confusion the enemy of the Creator is working to establish... to turn everyone away from the Creator, so that the creation will destroy itself. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 2:31am
I just don't get why you think life only has meaning if there is some sort of great sky fairy looking over you. There are lots of rules in the world which we, the people, have made to allow society to work. The best of these are based on ethics. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 3:05am
The world does not change upon you wishing it to be different. In psychology there is a word for it: 'Repression'. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 7:38am
|
I did already but may be you didn't know how to google for it.
Actually, I tried to open the link you sent me to. Google, I know. For convenience I give you the link to the most prominent scientific journals: Science and Nature. But you did not check whether it was workable for everyone. LOL Typing "evolution" I got 76247 entries in Nature and 38935 in 'Science' (On the 'Science' Homepage, Click on "Research Journals" first). I am here but there is no header as Research Journals. Did you miss something? May be, but I better do not even try to imagine which animal you evolved from. You do not have to because I was evolved from a Man as planned and executed by God Almighty.  ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 7:46am
|
Do you really consider the science of evolution to be false?
Last I heard it was a theory of evolution. And the answer is an emphatic yes! I do not believe the entire creation just happened on its own, without a purpose. That it was just an accident and that there is nothing to look forward to no matter how I have spent this life. Do you really want to say that all the evidence that shows us how we came to be through the very long history of earth is somehow a plant? A falsified record? That God has planted the fossils? It may not necessarily be a plant but it is a kind of an alternative suggested by those who do not believe in God for whatever reason. But the evidence against evolution is more acceptable to me than what is for it. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 8:01am
|
I do not mind people being religious, but I do mind when religious principles are held up against reality.
Or, what you consider reality! I am jumping in for two reasons. Because you are commenting on religion which you do not believe in. And your reality is presumptious! In this sense there is absolutely no difference between Islamic and Christian fundamentalism. The third reason is that Islam and Christianity are vastly different from each other. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 12:57pm
Please explain what evidence you see as being contradictory to the idea of natural selection. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 12:58pm
Reality is not only presumptious but the only truth. Everything else is fiction. No matter how much you want it to be true. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 2:22pm
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In some aspects 'yes', but not but not when it comes to the denial of reality. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 9:20pm
|
> Last I heard it was a theory of evolution.
Such a statement indicates someone who doesn't know the definition of "theory" in the scientific sense but is incorrectly reasoning from the vernacular meaning. And to be precise, Darwin proposed the Theory of Natural Selection to explain the FACTS of Evolution. As before, Relativity is a 'theory' that explains the facts of gravity, etc.. ----- > I refuse to believe that life is pointless. Seems like a pretty good way to think. > To be an atheist, you'd have to not have a soul... How do you know that? And while you are at it, define "soul"? > and if you did not have a soul you would not care about anything And how would you know that? Presumedly you have never been an atheist nor (as far as you know) without a soul. On the other hand, how can you prove you have this "soul" thing you need to define a step or so back. -------
I have always though it dangerous to base ones religious belief in opposition to science or upon some unsupportable but testable hypothesis (e.g., evolution == no god). As the science is clarifide or the believe simply learns more, this forces the believer into one of two very difficult positions: 1) Losing faith 2) Denying reality. As so the arrogance of disbelieving in the facts of the world (e.g., evolution), this would mean that the so-called 'believer' is putting LIMITS on God's/Allah's way of building reality. What prevents God/Allah from using the mechanism of evolution to create the variety of life we see -- it's an amazingly elegant solution. I defy anyone to come up with a better one if you play the what if game of "If I were God/Allah, I would have...." This would be like saying "sex is evil" so God/Allah would never have created humans to have sex simply to have children. (e.g., God/Allah could have created all children magically instead.) And then there is this: If God/Allah didn't want people to believe in evolution and the Theory of Natural Selection then he would not have buried all of those dinosaur (etc.) bone so deep, and in ancient sediments. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 1:11pm
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Further clarification for the 'atheists'.... (things to think on) What do you suppose guides the creatures of the earth? Why do birds know how to migrate? What is guiding them? Why is it the animals always know (as the humans never do) when there is impending danger? Why do they run before an earthquake? Why do birds, frogs, and other creatures, know when it is time to take shelter? They (unlike us humans who have been disconnected through our sin) are in touch with the Creator (God) which guides them. Only the human creature forgets his Creator. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 11:59pm
Greetings Tim the plumber, What is the meaning of life to an atheist? What is the point of pro-creating? ...if we just live and die... ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 June 2016 at 12:06am
Greetings Airmano, No, but if we do things according to the way the Creator designed things to be, the creation continues on... whereas, if we do things according to how the enemy of the Creator wants us to... doing things, each of us according to his or her own will, and in our own foolish wisdom apart from the Creator... the creation will destroy itself. To everything created with a design.... ignore that design.... go against that design, and you deconstruct the very thing that was created... i.e., you destroy it. The clay belongs to the potter's hands. asalaam and blessings to you, CAringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 June 2016 at 12:15am
Greetings Ringer, I believe I already did... the soul is the thing that sets humans apart from animals. It is the thing which causes us to question the reason and the purpose of our existence... a thing which I am pretty sure that animals do not do.
I can only address this by saying that we have seen the people without a soul.... they are the psychopaths... the serial killers.... the people with no conscience.... with no regard for life anyone who cares for life knows his Creator. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 June 2016 at 12:24am
I don't think that 'evolution=no God' I think that the Creator can create in any way that He wishes to create... and that man can describe this process only in the best way and terms that he knew (or knows) how.... but no matter how life changed, either after, or throughout, the creation process.... a human is a human.... a dog is always a dog.... an ape is always an ape, etc. The Creator created each individual species (as clay in the potters hand) and that species is what they remain, no matter how they may have adapted through time. As far as the dinosaurs... we must remember, the dinosaurs did not last.... seems the Creator decided to create something vastly different. asalaam and blessings to you, CAringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 01 June 2016 at 8:25am
So as and when some scientist discovers the exact mechanism for the migration instinct in an animal that animal is nolonger to be considered to be in direct touch with God but just some sort of robot whilst the rest still get to keep their special status. Why is it that just because science does not know everything, although a lot about migration is known, that must equal "GOD!!"? |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 01 June 2016 at 2:20pm
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-------------------------------------------------------- For your danger/animal theory you find probably as many diverging observations and opinions as animals on earth (or conflicting statements in the bible and/or the Quran if you prefer). Personally I like http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/a-sixth-sense-for-earthquake-prediction-give-me-a-break/ - this one. One thing is sure however: your term "always [know]" is untenable. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 01 June 2016 at 8:14pm
> What do you suppose guides the creatures of the earth?Presumably you are asking what mechanism(s) guide them, the mechanical "how". Why didn't you just look up this information (readily available on the Internet instead of trying to suggest is involves some 'magical' or 'supernatural' mechanisms? There are by the way several mechanisms use:
The ones that have offspring that do it right are the ones that over time survive to pass on the genes for these mechanism to their offspring etc. Start here perhaps, 'The Cornell Lab of Ornithology: All About Birds :The Basics of Bird Migration: How, Why, and Where' http://https://www.allaboutbirds.org/the-basics-how-why-and-where-of-bird-migration/ - https://www.allaboutbirds.org/the-basics-how-why-and-where-of-bird-migration/ The site recommends this book as an excellent resource ("interesting and easy-to-read style") to learn more, presuming these are honest questions on your part. ($4 hardcover with shipping and $10 for electronic version.) BTW, many humans do (or did in past times) migrate seasonally or as one time events or event series, and frequently successfully, to follow the migrating game (in this case they might just do it by TRACKING the migrant animals) or through memory and teaching their children, etc.... >Why is it the animals always know (as the humans never do) when there is impending danger?First, animals don't "always know" or do this but their is evidence that they do sometimes sense disasters approaching (especially a short time before the occurence.) This time I'll leave the work to you (if you are genuinely interest in how scients explains this and is studying it to find better and more complete answers). But to get you started this Google search will give plenty to view, review, and even peruse dleeply:
Have fun!!!! >They (unlike us humans who have been disconnected through our sin) are in touch with the Creator (God) which guides them.Seems like you are saying the animals have a soul and either humans don't have one or have compromised the human 'soul'. And even IF "God did it" then it doesn't close the possibility that God invented and used the mechanism of Natural Selection. Were Allah to have done it this a beautifully elegant solution to reach a very complex result. Natural Selection in no way diminishes God/Allah, but merely would show such a creator to be a VERY SMART entity indeed. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 04 June 2016 at 7:20pm
Not that is not a definitely but simply a tautological declaration -- i.e., circular reasoning. "Soul sets animals apart from humans which is the difference between humans and animals." There is no information content in your declaration. You have just declared something unseen, unknowable, and undefined to exist but you can't actually define it or give a method to discover or investigate it. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 06 June 2016 at 7:46am
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I just don't get why you think life only has meaning if there is some sort of great sky fairy looking over you.
'Sky Fairy' idea aside, let me ask you what is the purpose of this life? There are lots of rules in the world which we, the people, have made to allow society to work. The best of these are based on ethics. While making these rules you must have realized that there are certain spheres where you cannot make rules, only obey them. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 06 June 2016 at 8:01am
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Tried [again] on two different computers and both links [still] work. May be you don't know how to click ?
Those links did open this time! Did you grease palms to help open them? If so then I'm not impressed by the job he did. I keep forgetting you expect me to impress you. Are you so vain? If you feel that science is presumptuous, then be it so. Well, both science and you presume things and then find that truth is something else. In some aspects 'yes', but not but not when it comes to the denial of reality. Yeah, they both deny your reality! That nothing came out of nothing and so on.....blah....blah......blah! Tell me Airmano have you ever come across in the material world which created itself? Like a fan or a car or a piece of jewellery made exquisitely. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 June 2016 at 11:10pm
Greetings Ringer, What is it that causes humans to question the reason and purpose of their existence... and animals not to? ------------------------- I'll give you the answer.... that is the great mystery of the Creator.... He gives humans a soul. Yes, to us it may be hard to define, perhaps even undefinable.... but not to the Creator. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 June 2016 at 11:23pm
Greetings Airmano, The point is.... what is it that guides them to go from one place to another to begin with? I understand the natural powers of the earth.... magnetism, etc., that guide them.... but what makes them fly from one place to another.... where does that internal guidance come from? Humans don't do it... and why not? because it's not the way we were designed. addendum: Ringer says that at one time humans did do this.... perhaps he is correct, who can know. It certainly seems plausible... the native americans moved with the seasons from place to place in the land... but never one continent to another. (not with regularity) Anyway, it may just be further evidence of the separation from God... we may wonder why humans stopped doing this. (if they ever did) Not all creatures do however, which goes to the fact that all creatures have their own design. about the danger perception factors.... exactly... God's creatures are in touch with all of their perceptory senses.... it is only humans that are separated from this (because of their sin natures... their propensity to reject or rebel against the design of the Creator... to exert their own will over the design of the Creator... again, a thing which other creatures do not do... or if they do, they perish... they become extinct... the same thing that will happen to humans if they continue in their own way.... but the Creator will not allow this to happen... will not allow those which were made in His own image... His children... to go extinct).... humans became separated from the Creator and from the fullness of the senses. The closer one moves to God the more in touch with these other senses they become. That, to me, is the journey. We either move towards our Creator through this life, or we move away from the Creator in this life. It is our choice. asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 June 2016 at 11:34pm
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Greetings Ringer, Thank you for all your effort and information. Please read my reply to Airmano. I live with woods at the back of my place, and I can always know what weather to expect according to how quiet the woods go. It is the things of nature that alert us to the shifts in nature.... if we are discerning... I don't know that animals have to have a soul to be connected to the design of the Creator. The fact is, because they are not designed like humans, they don't compromise the design of the Creator the way that humans do. I agree, there is no reason to deny natural selection... in fact, in a way, humans thwart natural selection by not being smart in their mating choices... but that too is because they have strayed from the guidance of the Creator.... He has told us how to behave. Humans choose not to listen, and to do things according to their own mind. asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 11 June 2016 at 1:02am
I see no grand purpose to life. We play the hand we are dealt as all other creatures do. We compete, love, live and die because that's what we do. What rules do you think there are that we humans cannot change which are socail rules rather than physical rules that the universe runs on? I bet which ever social rule you can find, I can find a society which ran on the opposite path. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 June 2016 at 6:27pm
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It's funny, just today I stood outside in a storm thinking this: How could anyone not believe that there is a great deal more to this thing we call life? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 16 June 2016 at 1:07am
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Wrong.
The theory of evolution is more and more proven due to the mountain of evidence to support it and the absolute lack of evidence to refute it. I have yet not seen that mountain of evidence but I do wish to do first things first. You have to first deal with the truth of the assumption that the universe created itself. Here's a quote and counter quote regarding the question. The universe could NOT have created itself In his latest book, misleadingly entitled The Grand Design, Steven Hawking makes the adventurous claim that �because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.� Think about that. Dr. John Lennox (Professor in Mathematics at Oxford University acknowledges that Hawking is a brilliant theoretical physicist but responds to Hawking�s assertion that �the universe can and will create itself from nothing� with; �That sounds to me like something out of Alice in Wonderland ... it�s not science!�11 Lennox explains by saying; "If I say �X creates X,� I presuppose the existence of X in order to account for the existence of X. To presuppose the existence of the universe to account for its existence is logically incoherent."12 Or put simply; �From nothing, nothing comes!� or �No-thing cannot do anything!�13 In relation to Hawking's latest idea Dr. Lennox rightly concludes; "What this all goes to show is that nonsense remains nonsense, even when talked by world-famous scientists".14 The universe cannot have created itself! It's obvious simplicity and lack of any need for external interferance to explain the divergence of life forms and the constant appearance of new species makes it very robust. It is used to predict the pattern of change of disease and to make planning decisions that allow the western world to have in place stratagies to counter diseases which have not yet arrisen such as bird flue. Bird flue is in the general bird population. The proximity of humans to lots of birds, particularly in South East Aisa, means that it will jump species and evolve the ability to be transmitted between humans at some point. But we have already studied the likely forms of such a virus and have built structures of medical science which are likely to be able to counter this new disease without the otherwise hundreds of millions of deaths. Living Things Never Arise from Non-living Things To produce a living thing you must start with a living thing. Evolution requires non-living matter to turn into a living organism and this has never been observed. A Biology textbook puts it like this: "As we have seen, the life of every organism comes from its parents or parent. Does life ever spring from nonliving matter? We can find no evidence of this happening. So far as we can tell, life comes only from life. Biologists call this the principal of biogenesis." 8 So when it comes to real science (i.e. things we can actually establish by observation and experiment) life always comes from life! Evolutionists insist life came from nonliving matter but they have no way of proving this. Just saying something repeatedly doesn't make it true! Looking at the real world and wishing to understand how it works makes us more powerful. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying LaLaLaLa... results in you being more st**id than you should be. Darwin said: "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 16 June 2016 at 1:20am
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Please explain what evidence you see as being contradictory to the idea of natural selection.
Go here: http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_scientificcaseagainstevolution/ and http://www.changinglives.org.au/evolution.html ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 16 June 2016 at 4:22am
I agree.
You've again introduced this idea of "design" and claimed that it is not the same for animals and humans without any evidence. In fact there is virtually unlimited evidence to the contrary in that humans and animals are indistinguishable by such criteria and were developed (evolved) by the principles of natural selection.
It seems the best way for religious people to approach this -- as it will then cause no conflict between the demonstrable reality of the world we experience and the beliefs of religion. I am very serious about this and have always thought (and mentioned above) that those who place their religious beliefs in opposition to scientific knowledge set themselves up for disappointment (at best) and apostasy (at the extreme.)
One of the actual differences between humans and animals is that we can more easily thwart our natural instincts and built in tendencies. This is both our great boon and advantage, while also being on occasion our burden. We're smart, and sometimes smart enough to do extremely st**id things.
And to you. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 16 June 2016 at 4:50am
You have only to look, as there are plenty of sources from the beginner level to very advanced without having to even leave your computer. On this note, I think one of the most dramatic and compelling single item I have ever encountered was in the Smithsonian Institute Natural History Museum (Washington DC.) (At one time) On entering there were 3 skeletons: A chimpanzee, a gorilla, and a human. Nothing so simple could make it so obvious. (Evolution that is, since remember that evolution is an almost infinite set of FACTS that were best explained by The Theory of Natural Selection.)
This is largely unrelated to Natural Selection. Natural Selection doesn't deal with the creation of the universe or even with the creation of life in much detail (it may one day to this latter.) Natural Selection only explains the "origin of species", that is, the diversity and connected of all all life (on earth) from simple principles and mechanisms.
The above has little or nothing to do with natural selection. If you wish to understand this subject then it's best not to try to learn it from a physicist or cosmologist but instead choose a biologist or even a non-scientist who is an expert as explaining science and has studied the subject in detail to explain it to other laymen.
This however is quite true. The robustness of the explanation is quite astounding.
How would you (or anyone) know that? "Never" is one of those words almost never allowing for proof while a single counter-example (it only has to happen once) offers disproof. Distrust any supposedly scientific claim that includes words like "never". And again, this is largely unrelated to Natural Selection which does NOT attempt to explain the literal origin of the FIRST living thing(s ).
The above sentence is a critical misunderstanding of both the facts of evolution and the Theory of Natural Selection which explains these facts. Once of Darwin's brilliant strategies was to study "articificial selection" during the develop of "Origin of Species". We studies pigeon breeding in detail and other human selected evolution such as dogs (and chickens I believe) to show examples of evolution in human time (i.e., not over millenia.) You can easily see EVOLUTION by tracking such breeding programs but of course the mechanism is (at least slightly) different. Humans make the decisions about which traits are "fittest" by choosing the ones they prefer, e.g., in dogs it might be hunting ability, beauty (as judged by humans), size, etc. In nature, 'Natural Selection' operates by the genes which the best survival making it on to the next generations over what to humans are extremely long time spans and many, many generations. To 'see' natural selection operated ('in real time') it is necessary to study life forms with very short generational life spans. (Which of course has been done as well.). This latter actually includes evidence "proving" (in the pure sense of the word) some aspects of natural selection by moving them from Theory into facts that are observed and documented. But it is still most useful to remind yourself that "Evolution is the body of facts, and Natural Selection is the Theory which best and well explains those facts." ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 16 June 2016 at 12:03pm
The above seems a little chopped up but I will try to respond. 1, The line between life and not-life is not what you think, clear, but is infact very hard to draw. This video is about that; https://www.ted.com/talks/martin_hanczyc_the_line_between_life_and_not_life?language=en It's a very good video. The man has mixed 4 types of oil to make droplets which to my definition are alive. He says that thay lack the complexity to count as alive but since they are clearly competing for resources to grow and reproduce, that they breed and produce new more complex forms of themselves I don't really see the option to not say that they count as life. 2, I don't know how the universe started. I do know that it started morethan 12.5 billion years ago and that the oldest objects in the universe, that we have been able to see, appeared then. That the universe was a lot smaller then and that it has been expanding since then and I am told that the actual age of the universe is something over 13 billion years. I am unable to present the 13+ billion years as evidence because I don't understand the evidence for it but the 12.5 billion year old galaxy sized oragne fuzzy thing I can understand and thus can present it as evidence for the age of the universe. 3, The eye is a very good example of how evolution works to make something that does indeed look at first glance to be far too complex to not be the work of design rather than competitive selection from randon chance over many hundreds of millions of years. If you look at a snail's eyes you will see that they have a much simpler set of eyes that can see very limited things. These proto-eyes are still important to them. They give the snail an advantage. There are corals that have the most basic eye. This is the ability to sense light and dark. If it goes dark they pull in their feeding wands (whatever they are called) because there might be a fish about to eat them. When it's sunny there is no fish over them and they can feed. All you need for this is one nerve cell receptive to sunlight. And the instinct. There are examples of eyes from the single cell light/dark one to the super vision of an eagle. A full range of eyes between the two extremes. Our complex eyes did not evolve at once. Many steps happened along the way. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 16 June 2016 at 1:44pm
Do a simple exercise: Google a picture of a human skeleton and google for the skeleton of a Chimpanzee or a Bonobo. Compare ! What do you see ? ----------------------------------------------------
It's like saying: Einstein is wrong because his theory of relativity does not explain Magnetism. Ah, BTW. since you seem to know a lot about this subject: Is a virus dead or alive ? Why ? ------------------------------------------------------
"...if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory." Why don't you mention this part of his statement ? It also clearly shows that Darwin was very critical even to his own theory. This is what makes a good scientist. But again, it also shows your unwillingness to even look for information (is it really so difficult to type "eye + evolution" and then hit return ?), Today we know much more than Darwin could know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye - this subject . Last not least: The human eye is actually rather badly constructed (Thanks Creator !) compared to the one of other species (Blood vessels in front(!) of the retina, wow !). That we didn't get all eaten by roaming predators is only because our brain reconstructs a decent image. ------------------------------------------------------
I did reply to your question about "nothing from nothing" but you either didn't read it or you didn't understand it or you ignored it. None of the three is a good sign. -----------------------------------------------------
Still stuck with the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy - Watchmakers analogy ? Jesus, This has been rebutted already more than a 100 years ago. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 16 June 2016 at 1:58pm
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@ Caringheart:
Don't chicken out, I'm still waiting for the answer to my question: "What guides the Guinea Worm ?" Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 June 2016 at 11:19am
Greetings Ringer, Without any evidence? Is it not evident that humans are given a greater mental capacity than other creatures? Are you saying that you believe that one day dogs may talk? What about apes, monkeys, cats? Will they all evolve to one day have the same skill set that humans have?
Scientific knowledge? Science is just as much a religion... and a belief system, as anything else. You think that science 'proves' realities? Science is all about interpretation. We define our own realities through 'science'. There still has to be a Creator that made the laws of physics, the laws of gravity, Newton's law, quantum mechanics, etc. I'd like to share something I wrote the other day: Beyond the Veil So what about 'those who place their scientific beliefs in opposition to ancient knowledge'? asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart
One of the actual differences between humans and animals is that we can more easily thwart our natural instincts and built in tendencies. This is both our great boon and advantage, while also being on occasion our burden. We're smart, and sometimes smart enough to do extremely st**id things.
And to you. [/QUOTE] ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 June 2016 at 11:26am
Greetings airmano, I do not understand the question. The same thing guides the guinea worm as guides the behavior of all creatures... whatever mechanism the Creator built into the creature. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 16 July 2016 at 3:00am
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I need actual evidence for the existance of this soul thing not evidence of somebody talking about it.
What kind/shape of evidence would that be? I have talked about it when I'm being a bit dramatic. It does not mean that it is a real thing. I do not know wen you are being dramatic or when you are being serious but you need to spell out what will convince you. If I can get it, I will. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ringer
Date Posted: 16 July 2016 at 10:10am
That is sort of the point Saint, anyone referring to such a nebulous concept as a real thing would need to a) define it carefully and b) provide evendence. Words like "soul" which have no agreed upon meaning nor tests for existence are very difficult to discuss intelligently. (Also, I'll look up the "old Qur'an" info for you as soon as I have time but you should be able to find it yourself if you are seriously interested.) A search like "oldest surviving Quran" might be enough. ------------- -- Ringer |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 17 July 2016 at 11:11am
So it is the creator that built the Guinea worm including the mechanism of eating his way through living people. Nice job, thanks creator! Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: bebeeells1
Date Posted: 25 August 2016 at 11:18pm
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I thought I would post this as an example of a Humanist funeral reading;
How do We Let A Mother Go How do we let a mother go? How do we say "I'm ready now to go on without you"? How can we ever have a clue of what that really means? And of a sudden the moment is upon us, and there's no turning back. And then we know what grief is,... and guilt and love and things undone. Try to prepare and we will fail in some way, be it subtle or looming.... But there is peace too. peace and acceptance and overwhelming love that we maybe weren't aware of. waves and waves of conflicting emotion, And laughter too, and memories we hadn't bothered lately to recall come flooding back in shared company.. and it's all about you mum... And there's gratitude.. so much of that, that we had you, such a wonderful mother...Bright and shining, nobody's fool, independent, but humble too; Smart, and kind, and fun. Adventurous.. A part of you has passed away, but much is carried everyday within us, and will as long as we are here. This may be a final tribute, A day to celebrate your life and say goodbyes; But it's not final. Every day I'll celebrate in some way, just by the virtue of how you shaped my life, The absolute and incredible fortune that I knew you. As a mother, a friend and a woman. csgo4sale.com |