Jinns are not fiction
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Topic: Jinns are not fiction
Posted By: The Saint
Subject: Jinns are not fiction
Date Posted: 28 May 2015 at 5:02am
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@Airmano
People who are interested in learning more about Jinns may go here. They will find some interesting Videos https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jinns+in+islam ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Replies:
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 May 2015 at 8:46am
When I advised you not to believe stuff just because you read it on the Internet, I meant to include http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=flat+earth+proof - stuff you watched on YouTube as well.
 ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 28 May 2015 at 9:25am
Hope this is a joke 
Airmano |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 28 May 2015 at 12:53pm
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Are you for real? If Jinns are real then why not fairies and lepricorns? I will pay �1000 to anybody who shows good evidence of such things. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 1:28am
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When I advised you not to believe stuff just because you read it on the Internet, I meant to include stuff you watched on YouTube as well. Tongue
Speaking for myself, when I look at stuff on the Web, I do not close my eyes or ears. Neither do I allow my brain to slumber. I am alert and alive to what I see and hear. I advise you should do the same. Then and only then will you be able to make sense of what you are witnessing. Well, I searched and I got this result. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Is+earth+round ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 1:34am
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Hope this is a joke
Airmano No. This is education. FOC. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 1:42am
| thread shifted |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 1:45am
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Go here: http://www.islamawareness.net/Jinn/world.html
And here : http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/674/ Or, here: http://www.kalamullah.com/jinn.html You just might wind-up owing me a thousand pounds. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 1:49am
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Try this also. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123389 ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 2:00am
The Saint
BTW: When is Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood's https://sites.google.com/site/brfdictionary/glossary/d/djinn-fizzyks - Djinn Power Plant finally going on grid ? Airmano |
No. This is education. FOC.Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 7:51am
Right, "free of charge". And worth every penny.  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 8:05am
I am guessing that you aimed this at me. I will require you to actually post the bit which shows evidence of such things. You will have to cite the link as well. Otherwise I will assume it's the standard policy of posting vast amounts of drivel to divert somebody who is asking awkward questions. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 10:50am
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Greetings The Saint, I tend to agree with you, although I view the Jinn's as the demons, the fallen angels, the unseen, that prowl the earth. Those on the other side of 'the veil'. Is that how you see them? asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 June 2015 at 8:33am
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I warned ya', but apparently it didn't stop you from exposing yourself to ridicule.
I am not bothered by ignorant ridicule. I know I am right. While you are blundering around intent only on proving me wrong. BTW: When is Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood's Djinn Power Plant finally going on grid ? I haven't the slightest idea of what you are talking about? Have you written to any of the sites I had asked you to write? Don't worry they will not ridicule you. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 June 2015 at 8:36am
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Greetings The Saint,
I tend to agree with you, although I view the Jinn's as the demons, the fallen angels, the unseen, that prowl the earth. Those on the other side of 'the veil'. Is that how you see them? asalaam and blessings, Caringheart Hello CH The Quran speaks of the them as a race. They are Allah's creations, just as the angels and human beings are creations of Allah SWT. There are good and the bad among them. Incidentally, Satan is also a Jinn. A fallen being, yes. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 June 2015 at 8:47am
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Right, "free of charge". And worth every penny. Wink
If you only knew! ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 June 2015 at 9:12am
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I am guessing that you aimed this at me.
Your guess is right. I will require you to actually post the bit which shows evidence of such things. You will have to cite the link as well. I have cited evidence and links. Otherwise I will assume it's the standard policy of posting vast amounts of drivel to divert somebody who is asking awkward questions. I am sorry, did I miss something here? Did you ask me a question? If you did, perhaps you can post it again. I do not treat anyone's thoughts as drivel. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 02 June 2015 at 11:30am
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Did you actually learn how to actively search for information ? ------------------------------------------------------
The links you gave don't help to alleviate this impression. Airmano |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 7:16am
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we all have our weak spots ...
Yeah, yours are obvious. I gave you the link. There you find another link to a New York Times article. Did you actually learn how to actively search for information ? I do not have to search as much as you do or need to. I ignore frivolous stuff. And people like Bashiruddin do not interest me. No I'm not worried but I still don't feel like making a fool out of myself. The links you gave don't help to alleviate this impression. May I point-out that given your current state you couldn't do worse. You could even write under an alias. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 06 June 2015 at 3:25pm
The Saint:
Having said so, I share your your feelings about people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SO9djzV2OA - believing in nonsense like Jinns. Airmano |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 07 June 2015 at 1:04pm
I need you to describe what you are trying to say is evidence. Then link to it. Otherwise I will presume that it is the standard tactic of trying to get me to go away by overlaoding me with irrelivant drivel. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 19 June 2015 at 5:12am
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Having said so, I share your your feelings about people believing in nonsense like Jinns.
Ahem! I do not think believing in Jinns is nonsense. but some people insist on fooling themselves and it is their choice to do so. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 June 2015 at 10:47am
I find this incredibly intriguing for some reason. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 19 June 2015 at 10:47am
Sure! Airmano BTW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83g9A_hrT8g - This guy is qute clear about the subject. In the end he says nothing else than: We have no idea about the Jinns, nor any way to enter in contact with them. However they must exist since the Quran says so. Yeah !! ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: ExplainPlease
Date Posted: 19 June 2015 at 12:30pm
| is the teaching of Jins quranic or pagan? |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 21 June 2015 at 2:35am
ExolainPlease:
Mohamed reduced the polytheistic view in which he grew up to a monotheistic one, but he didn't brake fully with the old view by postulating the existence of (bad) spirits. In any case it is purely fictitious and superstitious and there is quite a lot of disagreement amongst the Muslims about this subject as well. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 20 July 2015 at 6:50am
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The Saint: ... but some people insist on fooling themselves and it is their choice to do so.
Sure! Sure! Airmano BTW: This guy is qute clear about the subject. In the end he says nothing else than: We have no idea about the Jinns, nor any way to enter in contact with them. However they must exist since the Quran says so. Yeah !! On the contrary, I know that Jinns exist. And yes, because the Quran says so. And tried to show you a way to contact them. But you are too scared of ridicule, sic. But I say it again, just ask Islamicity, they will show you the way or educate you on the subject. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 20 July 2015 at 6:52am
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You said:In any case it is purely fictitious and superstitious and there is quite a lot of disagreement amongst the Muslims about this subject as well.
That is interesting. Can we have some examples? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 20 July 2015 at 8:20am
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Mohamed reduced the polytheistic view in which he grew up to a monotheistic one, but he didn't brake fully with the old view by postulating the existence of (bad) spirits.
In any case it is purely fictitious and superstitious and there is quite a lot of disagreement amongst the Muslims about this subject as well. Airmano Prove your claim that the idea of the Jinns is fictitious? I do see that you seem to be searching for information on them. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 20 July 2015 at 8:25am
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I am wondering if you have heard this lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G2zhgY1Nw0 ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 20 July 2015 at 2:02pm
The Saint
No you did not. Tell me where you did.
This is not how it works however since you claim their existence. ---------------------------------------------------------
Now, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgM3m6uaQ1Y - this one is so spaced out about Jinns that even the most pious Muslim may have a good laugh about it. Here comes an example http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33761&KW=Jinn&PID=197430#197430 - from IC (*). I have several forum entries (in German) where people report "Jinn encounters" that are rejected by the other forum members. If you find somebody that is willing to translate I can post them. A little bit of effort in seeking will show you that you can find about as many opinions about Jinns as there are Muslims in the world. -------------------------------------------------------
This is why it is the job of the person that makes a claim (like the existence of Jinns) to prove it, not the other way round. .... and so far you've miserably failed in this respect. Airmano (*) Sentence added after this post has been made public ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 21 July 2015 at 8:24am
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No you did not. Tell me where you did.
I did tell you, didn't I to write to Islamic sites to help or to inform you of the way to contact them? Sure, take This chap for example. He preaches that Jinn's exist (again, simply because the Quran says so) but that there is no way to get in touch with them - opposite to what you claim. I thought you guys did not consider youtube a reliable source for knowledge and information? Now, this one is so spaced out about Jinns that even the most pious Muslim may have a good laugh about it. Here comes an example from IC (*). How is this relevant to your stand that jinns do not exist? If anything it proves that people believe they exist. I have several forum entries (in German) where people report "Jinn encounters" that are rejected by the other forum members. If you find somebody that is willing to translate I can post them. I do not know anyone who can translate from german. But I am suggesting you write to Islamicity for genuine help in this regard. You do not need to post a message on the forum. A little bit of effort in seeking will show you that you can find about as many opinions about Jinns as there are Muslims in the world. You are confused. Because I refuted your claim about Muslims contradicting each other by saying suggesting that scholarly opinion did not vary about their existence. It is logically impossible to prove the non-existence of something (try for example to prove the non existence of the Spaghetti Monster if you feel for it). Logic also demands to remain silent until you cannot disprove something. Meanwhile, you can try the following. You may go to a quiet place, after dark, preferably. And call out to them taking their name. If you do it a few times you just might hear from them. This is why it is the job of the person that makes a claim (like the existence of Jinns) to prove it, not the other way round. Job? I would not have been surprised if you had said obliged....LOL. But the answer is no. Because there is no compulsion in religion. And why would I make any effort at all to convince you of the existence of Jinns when you do not believe in the existence of God despite all the evidence around us. and so far you've miserably failed in this respect. That.......is not going to help you at all. You must be nice to me if you wish to learn more about Jinns. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 21 July 2015 at 8:26am
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I am wondering if you have heard this lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G2zhgY1Nw0
Airmano, did you see the above lecture on youtube it would have really frightened you, I am sure. Did you leave it half way? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 21 July 2015 at 10:53am
Sure, but then don't get surprised if nobody takes your religion seriously and starts to tell you about Spaghetti Monsters. ---------------------------------------------
But I found the comment from "Scorp Pois" right underneath your https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G2zhgY1Nw0 - Youtube clip much more telling. By the way: Why do only Muslims (and nobody else) see/hear Jinns ? Any explanation ? Airmano Ps: Here comes an interesting one: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-a-tures/do-religious-classes-focu_b_5706497.html - Religion and Superstition and if you want, here comes the http://www.bu.edu/learninglab/files/2012/05/Corriveau-Chen-Harris-in-press.pdf - Source ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 22 July 2015 at 5:59am
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Sure, but then don't get surprised if nobody takes your religion seriously and starts to tell you about Spaghetti Monsters.
No. I will hear them out and evaluate their claims patiently. And respond on merit. And it is not for me to worry. Allah SWT says Islam is the true religion and that He will make it prevail over all others isms. Actually no, I found it rather amusing. But I found the comment from "Scorp Pois" right underneath your Youtube clip much more telling. Strange, you could find only one comment. Don't you see how Allah SWT makes dumb and blind because of your disbelief? By the way: Why do only Muslims (and nobody else) see/hear Jinns ? Any explanation ? Yes. It is because they believe in ghosts, demons and so on. So, if they encounter Jinns they think they are ghosts or demons or whatever. Fact is ghosts/spirits of dead people are not permitted to roam around and demons do not exist. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 22 July 2015 at 12:37pm
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Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 23 July 2015 at 8:48am
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Airmano: Sure, but then don't get surprised if nobody takes your religion seriously and starts to tell you about Spaghetti Monsters.
The Saint: No. I will hear them out and evaluate their claims patiently. Just an advice: Start with your own religion first. I have evaluated the claims made by my religion. I am convinced of its truths. Alhamdolillah. No I also saw the others, but they didn't contain any relevant info. Not relevant to your beliefs, you mean. If he exists he must have made me this way. No, He does not do that. He must have given you a chance/s, which you refused to accept. There's no excuse for him - as an almighty being. He needs no excuses. Men do. He is just. .and demons do not exist Just like Jinns. Jinns do exist. Only you are too scared to find out. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 23 July 2015 at 10:59am
Wrong, If I had a true choice he would not know beforehand on how I decide. Since he couldn't know the outcome of my decision he'd neither be all-knowledgeable and even less almighty anymore. You can't have both: Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 27 July 2015 at 7:31am
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Wrong,
If I had a true choice he would not know beforehand on how I decide. Since he couldn't know the outcome of my decision he'd neither be all-knowledgeable and even less almighty anymore. I am sure you know He is Omniscient. But He has also given free will to man. So, the free will allows you to do things your way, only He already knows what you are going to do. Truth is He is incomparable. Nothing like anything you can dream or imagine. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 27 July 2015 at 1:37pm
Seriously, No! ------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately "No" once more. Again: If your God was almighty as you claim he would know not only everything about me but he already knew all about me even before he created me. I'd be like a robot produced & programmed by God almighty with an absolutely deterministic behaviour. Tell me where you see room for "Free Will" in there. ----------------------------------------------------
Doesn't make sense: Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 29 July 2015 at 8:34am
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I am surprised you are asking a Muslim not to quote the Quran in support of his beliefs? It is like asking a man not to breathe and yet live!
The Saint: I am sure you know He is Omniscient. Seriously, No! You don't? You must have heard Muslims claiming so. However, what makes you say, He is not? Unfortunately "No" once more. Again: If your God was almighty as you claim he would know not only everything about me but he already knew all about me even before he created me. That is exactly how it is! He does know all about us and what we are going to do or not do. I'd be like a robot produced & programmed by God almighty with an absolutely deterministic behaviour. This is where you appear to suffer from poor cognition or a blind spot. Because I have said many times that He has blessed us with free will. So, we are different from robots. He dose not order our lives according to what He knows about our future. Instead, He allows us to make choices and decisions based on our knowledge and morality. Tell me where you see room for "Free Will" in there. I do see room for free will because without free will there can be no test and no rewards or punishments for the life lived here.The hereafter, is a truth, in which absolute faith is commanded. And yet you try. If he is unimaginable, how can you use terms like "Merciful", "Just" and so on on his behalf ? (please no Quran citation here !) Because He says so in the Quran. Because His Prophet and slave said so. And there are instances of justice done and mercy shown. Actually, there are ninety nine divine attributes described in the Quran. Along with Just and Merciful. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 August 2015 at 9:08am
And of course you believe He is telling the truth because He says that in the Quran too. But He would probably say exactly the same things if He were a liar, right? How do you know? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 01 August 2015 at 11:41am
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But this doesn't answer my question I'm afraid. I want to know how you can postulate free will if you have a being which: A) Created us and almightily fixed beforehand whatever we (chose to) do in life. B) Knows everything we did in the past and everything we will do in the future. May be we can move forward on the basis of your definition of "Free will". Could you share this with me ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Jannahgoals
Date Posted: 06 August 2015 at 10:20am
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https://youtu.be/J1llMlCzFC0 - link about jinn and black magic.
The best protection against black magic and the evil eye is the Qur'an. Please copy and paste to whatsapp, Facebook, Twitter etc. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 08 August 2015 at 7:27am
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And of course you believe He is telling the truth because He says that in the Quran too.
I do. Didn't you believe your mother when she said she was your mother? How did you know she was telling you the truth? But He would probably say exactly the same things if He were a liar, right? How do you know? Do you expect your mother lied to you? Or, that she may lie again? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 08 August 2015 at 8:53am
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What would you resent if I tried to corroborate my claims citing Mao's bible ?
You can, of course, do so. Or, you may swear by Enid Blyton. You shall be taken seriously or not, depends on you. Oh, I had many people claiming many things. Fantasizing about [the existence of] a being where I have no idea what the colour of his shoes is and the nature of his religion is a nice philosophical exercise but not more. You did not even try to find out if He was more than a philosophical exercise? Or, the biggest and the most significant truth of your life? Indeed, all the things you mention don't make sense in the absence of free will. But this doesn't answer my question I'm afraid. I want to know how you can postulate free will if you have a being which: A) Created us and almightily fixed beforehand whatever we (chose to) do in life. He did not fix anything at all. He only knows what is going to happen. B) Knows everything we did in the past and everything we will do in the future. Yes. May be we can move forward on the basis of your definition of "Free will". Could you share this with me ? Free will is the freedom to do whatever one wishes to do at any time and anywhere. Airmano ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 08 August 2015 at 1:18pm
Can you do magic or this evil eye thing? I can't. Can anybody out there do this stuff? If so fire away at me. I'll just ignore it. I don't think I need any other protection from a none threat. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 09 August 2015 at 12:41am
This is the moment to tell you a little story from my life. In the mid 70ies my brother used to sieve through the ether and at a given moment he came onto Radio Beijing that emitted in German for some hours a week. He send them a post card that he received their broadcast and from than on we had a monthly newspaper (something like "Beijing News", in German where the precise name escapes me) for free in our mailbox. In the "Beijing News" I read one day an article about tomatoes. The question was, why some tomatoes could be kept fresh for longer than others. To investigate this (for nurturing a nation obviously important) question they wrote, that after consulting Mao's writings and guided by the inspiration given through his wise words and his incomparable leadership (Up to today I still remember the precise citation they used from Mao's bible) they found a way to keep all tomatoes fresh for longer! This (quasi ?-) religious approach (keyword: "Guidance") to an every day problem left me speechless at the time. What made me even more speechless however was the d�j� vu I had when I came in contact with Islam for the first time in my life. It struck me to realize that exactly the same underlying principle of unquestionable total authority applied, with the only difference that Mao's book was exchanged against the Quran. May be this helps. -----------------------------------------------
So he is only a spectator that never intervened/s ? --------------------------------------------------------
For me the "free will" contains a part of unpredictability. For you, our decisions are 100% predictable to Allah. Take for example a stone. It is to 100% predictable that it will drop once you let it slip out of your hand. Obviously you would never ascribe a free will to any object/person that behaves in such a predictable manner. So where do you see the mistake in my logic (please no trivialities like "we are not stones") ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 August 2015 at 4:46pm
Because her story is corroborated by a great many eyewitnesses -- family, friends, etc., all of whom knew she was pregnant, saw her go to the hospital and return with me, etc. Moreover, her claim is not at all extraordinary. I know of a great many mothers who gave birth to children. I have no reason to question it in my own case.
I wouldn't say she lied, but she was certainly wrong about many things (like God, for instance). I trust her on ordinary matters, but if she made any supernatural claims (like Jinns, for instance) I would be extremely skeptical. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 10 August 2015 at 3:33am
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Because her story is corroborated by a great many eyewitnesses -- family, friends, etc., all of whom knew she was pregnant, saw her go to the hospital and return with me, etc.
How can you be sure that it was you she gave birth to and how can you say that it was you she returned with? Moreover, her claim is not at all extraordinary. I know of a great many mothers who gave birth to children. I have no reason to question it in my own case. I am glad you brought-up this aspect of the phenomenon of child-birth. There is a universal trust between a child and his/her mother. An axiomatic fact, self-evident, unquestioned. Similar, and all the time on view everywhere, is the belief in God. A cross cultural consensus is enough evidence to substantiate the claim that God�s existence is a universal belief. Evidently there are more theists than atheists in the world, and this has always been the case from the beginning of recorded history. I would also like to add: "we frequently hear �God is no different than believing in the spaghetti monster�. This is not true. If you understand self-evident truths, axiomatic and basic beliefs then you would see that they do not require information transfer. The basic concept of God does not require information transfer. The idea that monsters exist, or even that spaghetti exists, requires information transfer. Therefore the spaghetti monster is not a self-evident truth." truth.http://www.onereason.org/god-confusion/do-we-need-evidence-for-god/ ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Child of God
Date Posted: 10 August 2015 at 1:20pm
| I have seen both fallen humans and fallen angels. I have never seen a jinn before. They are not in the Holy Bible. Are they in the Quran? Has anybody seen one? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 11 August 2015 at 8:35am
I just answered that above. It's not like Muhammad's story, which has no corroboration at all. It's unfortunate ( but not surprising, really) that there were never any eyewitnesses to his encounters with Gabriel.
Yup, it is a fact that this trust exists. It is not a fact that this trust is fully justified. Young children regard their parents as omniscient and omnipotent; but are they?
Yup. Many psychologists see the belief in God as a transference of this innate trust in our parents. We have a deep inner need for certainty and protection, and once we realize that our parents are not omniscient and omnipotent, we invent an imaginary Friend with those characteristics to give us comfort. It is a fact that many people believe in God; but the belief itself remains just a belief, not a fact.
This is known as the fallacy of http://skepdic.com/affirmingtheconsequent.html - affirming the consequent . If a concept is a self-evident truth, then it does not require information transfer; but if a concept does not require information transfer, that doesn't necessarily make it a self-evident truth. As we saw above, our belief in the omniscience and omnipotence of our parents did not require information transfer, but neither was it true. Even if the above argument were valid, it would only argue for some vague form of deism, not for Islam and not necessarily even monotheism. The Quran was obviously an information transfer. It is still fair to suggest that belief in Islam is no different than believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 12 August 2015 at 6:48am
Do you hold any positions of responsibility? If so, you must urgently advise all the people that rely on you that you believe in jinns. This will enable them to make alternative arrangements. I'm not joking. If you were my doctor or lawyer I would be absolutely horrified that you believed in such nonsense. I would be completely unable to trust your judgement. It is terrifying that people can believe in these fairy tales in the 21st century. I'm assuming you are an adult? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 August 2015 at 2:08pm
Frankly, I'm not sure there is much difference between believing in jinns and believing in gods. But either way it's kind of terrifying, I'll give you that. I call myself a humanist, but it sometimes shakes my faith in humanity when I consider the number of people willing to believe in nonsense.  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 13 August 2015 at 8:14am
I thought about that before posting. I'm convinced there's not a gnat's crotchet between the two. However, I'm mindful that nearly everyone in the UK would be horrified that someone believed in fairies, while a reasonable number of people wouldn't be concerned by someone's belief in God. But that brings to mind something we shouldn't lose sight of. Belief in God is still viewed as rather potty by most people in the UK. Stand up in a crowd and announce the coming of the Lord - see what reaction you get 
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Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 16 August 2015 at 4:13am
Have you really seen a fallen angel?????? Please elaborate. |
Posted By: Child of God
Date Posted: 16 August 2015 at 11:34am
| Two-thirds of the entire world believes in the Abrahamic God. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 17 August 2015 at 3:28am
@COG
Could it be that you mix up "Quantity" and "Quality" ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 18 August 2015 at 4:46am
According to 2010 research by Pew, 54% of the global population self-identify as christian (31.5%), muslim (23.2%) or jew (0.2%). This does not mean they believe in God. 59.5% of British people self-identify as Christian yet only 34% of Brits say they believe in God. http://www.pewforum.org/2012/12/18/global-religious-landscape-exec/ - http://www.pewforum.org/2012/12/18/global-religious-landscape-exec/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom Extrapolating globally, that would imply that only 31% of the human race believes in your Abrahamic God. But 27% of the world's population is under 15 years of age. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_world - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_world That begs all sorts of other questions about why people believe in a particular god, but lets skip that killer blow to religious belief for a moment. Can we say that a 14-year old 'believes' in a particular god? A 2-year old? A new born baby? If we exclude these people then we're down to 23% of the world's population believing in your God. I'm not saying this is accurate, but clearly your number was a woeful over-estimate. But so what? Does something become true just because people believe it? Was the Emperor actually wearing clothes? If 'two-thirds' of the world actually did believe in an Abrahamic god they would still all be wrong. God does not exist except in deluded people's imaginations. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 18 August 2015 at 8:53am
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You have seen fallen angels?
Yes, Jinns are mentioned in the Quran. Yes, many people have seen them. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 18 August 2015 at 9:19am
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I just answered that above. It's not like Muhammad's story, which has no corroboration at all.
What do you mean Muhammad's birth and life have no corroboration? He is a historical figure. All facts about him are known through through eyewitnesses It's unfortunate ( but not surprising, really) that there were never any eyewitnesses to his encounters with Gabriel. They are not needed. The Quran is proof of its divine origin. Few people may have seen Gabriel. But the Quran is witnessed, read, analyzed by the whole world. Yup, it is a fact that this trust exists. It is not a fact that this trust is fully justified. Young children regard their parents as omniscient and omnipotent; but are they? The fact is that this trust exists. Similarly so, it exists about God as well. what reasons do we have to reject His existence? God�s existence is self-evidently true. Also known as a �basic belief� in the language of philosophy. The idea of self-evident truths are accepted by all. Take science for example: science takes the world�s reality as a self-evident truth; it believes that the world is real. In other words, the physical world is separate and external from our minds and our thoughts. Yup. Many psychologists see the belief in God as a transference of this innate trust in our parents. We have a deep inner need for certainty and protection, and once we realize that our parents are not omniscient and omnipotent, we invent an imaginary Friend with those characteristics to give us comfort. Is it not possible that the concept of a friend that you have just described is instinctive and it comes naturally because we just know that He exists. It is a fact that many people believe in God; but the belief itself remains just a belief, not a fact. How do you know that? An atheist should have no idea about what does it feel when one experiences faith? When one communicates with God? This is known as the fallacy of affirming the consequent. If a concept is a self-evident truth, then it does not require information transfer; but if a concept does not require information transfer, that doesn't necessarily make it a self-evident truth. As we saw above, our belief in the omniscience and omnipotence of our parents did not require information transfer, but neither was it true. No, I saw nothing of the sort. It was what you tried to say without any logic or evidence. I would say parents to a child of a certain age are close to being God as it is possible. But once the child grows that faith is transferred to where it belongs. Even if the above argument were valid, it would only argue for some vague form of deism, not for Islam and not necessarily even monotheism. Why not? The Quran was obviously an information transfer. It is still fair to suggest that belief in Islam is no different than believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It is information transfer, yes. The basic concept of God does not require information transfer. It is common knowledge and a universal truth. Flying Spaghetti and the Green Pumpkin are not basic concepts but flights of imagination under the influence of intoxicants. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 August 2015 at 7:36am
Except the most important one: the revelation of the Quran.
How is the mere existence of the Quran proof of its divine origin?
Yup, it is a fact that lots of people trust God. But is this trust justified?
What reasons do we have to reject Russell's http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Russells_Teapot - Celestial Teapot ? The default position ought to be to reject such arbitrary hypotheses unless good evidence can be provided to accept them. This is just Occam's Razor, without which we could populate the world with all sorts of outlandish entities from invisible unicorns to fairy godmothers.
The reality of the world is the simplest assumption to make sense of personal experience. If the world does not exist, then we need to make a a whole series of much more complex hypotheses involving brains in jars or vast Matrix-generating computer networks. Again, science (along with most sensible people) makes the simplest assumption that fits the facts, until/unless someone can offer evidence for a more complex hypothesis.
No doubt. It also comes quite naturally for most people to believe that http://www.livescience.com/26914-why-we-are-all-above-average.html - they are smarter than average . But simply because they believe it, that doesn't make it true.
I wasn't always an atheist.
Which part are you objecting to? That our belief in the omniscience and omnipotence of our parents did not require information transfer? Or that the belief was wrong?
Because:
Islam is not a basic concept either. Even if you can convince yourself of the basic concept of God without information transfer, you're still no closer to Islam than to Christianity, or Hinduism, or the Greek pantheon -- or Pastafarianism. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 22 August 2015 at 8:04am
Have you seen one? |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 3:40am
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Do you hold any positions of responsibility? If so, you must urgently advise all the people that rely on you that you believe in jinns. This will enable them to make alternative arrangements.
Why would they want to do so? Because you have a difficulty with things you cannot see or touch, feel or smell? Why are you assuming other people feel the same way? Isn't it possible that they have already made the effort to find them and have? While you are still blundering about in self-imposed ignorance. I'm not joking. If you were my doctor or lawyer I would be absolutely horrified that you believed in such nonsense. I would be completely unable to trust your judgement. Even though you are neither my doctor nor lawyer or even an acquaintance I am still concerned how can people like you make an issue of other people's beliefs just because the said beliefs do not conform to theirs, about which they know absolutely nothing. It is terrifying that people can believe in these fairy tales in the 21st century. I'm assuming you are an adult? I am an adult, yes. But how can you be so incredulous in the 21st century when all kinds of new discoveries are being made? However, if you are hobbled by your materialistic stubbornness you are the victim of your own self-destructive nature. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 3:42am
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Have you seen one?
No, I have not seen you so the answer is no. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 7:48am
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Except the most important one: the revelation of the Quran.
Historical accounts document, and the Quran openly declares, that Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered. The Quran was revealed at a time when the Arabs excelled in oral poetry. Poetry competitions like todays rap competitions, were held in the marketplace. Muhammads (pbuh) recitation stunned its listeners for its beauty in Arabic. Many converted simply by listening to the deep acoustic rhythms, literary merit and wisdom of the Quranic verses. In contrast, the Arabic of 1400 years ago was restricted to words and expressions relevant to the simple life of desert men and it was impossible to express metaphysical ideas or scientific, religious and philosophical concepts. In fact the science of Arabic grammar was developed after the revelation of the Quran, using the Quran as a basis for devising its rules. It is difficult to find an explanation (other than revelation) that explains how a book existed that superseded, and also differed so greatly from any other Arabic literature. The challenge of the Quran to produce a chapter like its own has not been met to this day:- How is the mere existence of the Quran proof of its divine origin? And if you are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad) then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof, and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. [Quran, 2:23> How is the mere existence of the Quran proof of its divine origin? The Quran is a highly comprehensive book containing Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality. It is a book fully describing the other life, a book of psychology, sociology, epistemology, and history, and a book containing scientific facts and the principles of a utopian life. A testament to the Divine authenticity of the Quran is that such a comprehensive book, one that was revealed over a period of 23 years, does not have any contradictory points. Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction and incongruity. [Quran, 4.82> Yup, it is a fact that lots of people trust God. But is this trust justified? I think it is. If you think it is not justify your stand. What reasons do we have to reject Russell's Celestial Teapot? Because Russell was fallible. His argument is based on his reasoning. It is still debatable. And may actually fail. Let us look at the proposition of belief/unbelief in God. The atheist will have the theist believe that if one lacks evidence for God then one should believe that there is not a God. According to this line of argument, if you feel there is insufficient evidence for God, the rational course of action is to dismiss the whole idea of God instead of just remaining undecided. In other words, if you don't feel there's convincing evidence for the existence of God, you should be an atheist instead of just being an agnostic. That is ridiculous! Because a rational alternative is to continue the search for more evidence about the existence of God until then status quo should be maintained. The default position ought to be to reject such arbitrary hypotheses unless good evidence can be provided to accept them. What would that good evidence be? The change of poles overnight? Or, juxtaposing the Pacific and the Atlantic oceans? This is just Occam's Razor, without which we could populate the world with all sorts of outlandish entities from invisible unicorns to fairy godmothers. The idea of God makes much more sense than unicorns, leprechauns, spaghetti monsters and such drunken- imagination products! The reality of the world is the simplest assumption to make sense of personal experience. If the world does not exist, then we need to make a a whole series of much more complex hypotheses involving brains in jars or vast Matrix-generating computer networks. Again, science (along with most sensible people) makes the simplest assumption that fits the facts, until/unless someone can offer evidence for a more complex hypothesis. Simplest is not necessarily the best or the correctest! So, you better get started with that proposed series of very complex series of hypothesis to explain the reality of the world. The idea of God is the most basic and simple. It fits facts and it is appealing. It also explains a lot of things. It does not explain a few other things but it is reasonable and logical. Teapot sounds like a crackpot and monsters are really he-fairies that you cannot explain. But if you wish to have your monsters you may have them and let me have my God. No doubt. It also comes quite naturally for most people to believe that they are smarter than average. But simply because they believe it, that doesn't make it true. But it can be true also. I wasn't always an atheist. I see. But then the obvious question arises. And it is this. What or who enticed you away from the path to God? Even if the above argument were valid, it would only argue for some vague form of deism, not for Islam and not necessarily even monotheism. Why not? Why not Islam? Islam is the most natural and true of all religions. When everything happens natural it is happening in Islam. For example: the birth of a child is in Islam. Since God Almighty prescribed that form of childbirth. Islam is not a basic concept either. Even if you can convince yourself of the basic concept of God without information transfer, you're still no closer to Islam than to Christianity, or Hinduism, or the Greek pantheon -- or Pastafarianism. I have just explained to you above why Islam is the most natural of feelings and faith. It feels natural. Additionally, could Muhammad (pbuh) have been a liar or had motives for inventing the Quran? The early years of Muhammads (pbuh) mission were punctuated by persecutions and sorrow. His followers were brutally tortured, killed and forced to migrate. His clan was boycotted and he was stoned. His enemies even offered him wealth and kingship if he abandoned his call to the belief in One God. Instead, the Prophet (pbuh) lived a very austere life and never pursued any worldly gains like fame, power or wealth. Furthermore, the life of Muhammad (pbuh) was a practical embodiment of the Divine message and a study of his life (through the Hadiths) provides an appreciation of this fact. Even before he received the Prophethood, he was known in his society as Al-Ameen (The Trustworthy) and As-Sadiq (The Truthful). Both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars attest to his honesty and integrity . The Quran mentions things that were not known at the time. How can the existence of these verses be explained? The Quran has scientific descriptions only recently discovered by modern science and that could not have been known 1400 years ago. Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); then we placed him (as a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of than clot We made a (foetus) lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah,The Best to Create [Quran, 23:12-14). The Quran describes the expansion of the universe: And it is we who have built the univrse with (Our creative) power; and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. [Quran, 51:47>. It was not until 1925, when Edwin Hubble provided evidence of receding galaxies, that the expanding universe came to be accepted as a scientific fact. Professor Alfred Kroner, a world-famous geologist, explained: Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad (pbuh) came from, he was after all a bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case. The Quran describes geographical concepts that were proven after its revelation. For example, it was the common dogma 1400 years ago that the earth was flat, but the Quran described it as a sphere, compressed at each end (like an ostrich egg): And the earth moreover, He has made egg shaped4 [Quran 79:30>. In 1597, when Sir Francis Drake sailed around the world, the earth became known to be a sphere. Think! Ponder! Analyze, introspect and believe. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 7:54am
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Frankly, I'm not sure there is much difference between believing in jinns and believing in gods. But either way it's kind of terrifying, I'll give you that. I call myself a humanist, but it sometimes shakes my faith in humanity when I consider the number of people willing to believe in nonsense. Unhappy
Your nonsense, is someone else's sense! However, your lack of faith is not terrifying. It is, really, pitiable. Sad. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 7:56am
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Yes, they are mentioned in the Quran. They are not generally supposed to be seen. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 8:20am
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This is the moment to tell you a little story from my life. In the mid 70ies my brother used to sieve through the ether and at a given moment he came onto Radio Beijing that emitted in German for some hours a week. He send them a post card that he received their broadcast and from than on we had a monthly newspaper (something like "Beijing News", in German where the precise name escapes me) for free in our mailbox.
In the "Beijing News" I read one day an article about tomatoes. The question was, why some tomatoes could be kept fresh for longer than others. To investigate this (for nurturing a nation obviously important) question they wrote, that after consulting Mao's writings and guided by the inspiration given through his wise words and his incomparable leadership (Up to today I still remember the precise citation they used from Mao's bible) they found a way to keep all tomatoes fresh for longer! This (quasi ?-) religious approach (keyword: "Guidance") to an every day problem left me speechless at the time. What made me even more speechless however was the d�j� vu I had when I came in contact with Islam for the first time in my life. It struck me to realize that exactly the same underlying principle of unquestionable total authority applied, with the only difference that Mao's book was exchanged against the Quran. May be this helps. ----------------------------------------------- No, it does not help at all. The analogy is absurd. You are unable to distinguish between a product of God and a man. If you really do not have the ability to see the difference between perfection and the ordinary you deserve the evil of satan. So he is only a spectator that never intervened/s ? No, He is not only a spectator. He hears prayers and I believe He can and does change fate. For me the "free will" contains a part of unpredictability. For you, our decisions are 100% predictable to Allah. Not predictable but known to Allah SWT, unknown to us. Take for example a stone. It is to 100% predictable that it will drop once you let it slip out of your hand. Obviously you would never ascribe a free will to any object/person that behaves in such a predictable manner. So where do you see the mistake in my logic (please no trivialities like "we are not stones") ? Our actions are predictable given that we are logical people. But we may act logically or not are both possible. This possibility is known to us and God. But only He knows which way we will go beforehand. We can do both good and bad. The potential for both is there. But some do good and others do bad. This is because we have free will. It is an entirely different matter that He knows what we will individually do. But like I said God helps people if they pray. But even that is known to Him. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 August 2015 at 8:58pm
Why are Muslim apologists always harping on Muhammad being "unlettered"? He recited the Quran. He didn't write it or read it.
In whose opinion? I've read plenty of books that are far better.
There are dozens of contradictions, and whole web sites devoted to documenting them. Muslims charitably refer to them as "abrogations": "Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it." (2:106) And yet the Quran even contradicts itself regarding its contradictions: "And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (6:115)
The validity of an argument does not depend on the fallibility of its author. If you think the argument is invalid, you need to attack the argument, not the author. This is classic ad hominem.
(You know, if you're going to try to pass of others' words as your own, you might at least remove the extra line breaks. It's a dead giveaway. )I think the point of the Teapot analogy is that we should assume no God. Not quite the same thing. By the way, you seem to have neglected the main point of Sharlow's paper. He claims that the Teapot argument is circular, because it relies on the a priori assumption that the existence of the teapot is intrinsically improbable. Substitute a more mundane object such as an oblong rock having two craters, he says, and: "Even if we had never observed an oblong space rock with two craters, our general knowledge about outer space would give us good reason to believe that there probably is such a rock." No it wouldn't. Unless he can offer some evidence for its existence, we would still assume that there probably isn't such a rock. Moreover, the existence of a teapot is still vastly more probable a priori than the existence of God. We know that teapots do exist in general. We have many indisputable examples of teapots, whereas we have no such examples of Gods.
Whose "status quo"? Yours or mine?
You mean evidence for God? No, even if we observed such a phenomenon, we would have no way of connecting it to a god or gods, let alone any particular god. Evidence for God would depend on your conception of what "God" is. The Muslim God could establish His existence by communicating His main message, the Quran -- not to a single person, in secret, 1400 years ago, but directly to all humankind. He could set up His own Web site, radio/TV stations, billboard/leaflet campaign, etc. That's what any sensible person would do if he really wanted to get his message out. (And if he were omnipotent, of course.) And once we established that these media sources were not faked (i.e., did not have a human origin), its authenticity would be inescapable.
Why?
The idea of God does not explain anything. At best, it simply provides a name for our ignorance, and an excuse not to ask for further explanation. If I ask how the universe was created, and your answer is "God", then the obvious next question is, how did God create the universe? This question is dismissed as impertinent and sacrilegious. But it's the same question.
Nobody. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13%3A11&version=KJV - 1 Corinthians 13:11
It is also in Christianity, and Hinduism, and Mormonism, and every other religion. And atheism too, for that matter. (You think atheists don't give birth?)
So does Christianity, and Hinduism, and Mormonism, and every other religion. And atheism too, for that matter. Whatever you were brought up with, it feels natural, at least at first.
More http://www.whyislam.org/the-origin-of-the-quran/# - anonymous copy/paste , and as usual your sources are lying to you. An ostrich egg is not compressed at each end, the earth is not egg-shaped, and educated people have known since the ancient Greeks that the earth is a sphere. (Why do you think Columbus tried to sail to the Orient by going west?). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes - Eratosthenes even calculated the diameter of the earth with remarkable accuracy. And most important, the http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=79&verse=30 - Quran verse 79:30 does not refer to an ostrich egg. Muslim apologists insist on mistranslating this passage, but http://en.islamtoday.net/node/667 - they are lying to you . (No surprise.) On the contrary, it says: "And after that He spread the earth" -- which if anything suggests that the earth is flat. Apparently the author of the Quran hadn't kept up with the latest Greek scholarship. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 28 August 2015 at 7:08am
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Thanks Ron for this excellent rejoinder. On every line I thought "I wish I'd said that", but truth is I'd never have come up with such an apposite response.
Incidentally you reminded me that The Saint had a bit of dig when he referred to "drunken- imagination". It strikes me that muslims like to throw in sly references to drunkeness when they've run out of arguments. I think accusing sceptics of being out of their heads on booze is one of the crumbling cornerstones that holds their fragile faith position together. Its only constant running repairs from the Imam of choice that prevents the whole thing from tumbling down. |
Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 28 August 2015 at 7:44am
There was tree nearby (take note! a tree)
The Prophet observed: Will you accept my claim if this tree gives the evidence?
The jinns said yes we shall accept it. On that the Prophet called the the tree. The tree came neaby and gave the evidence (what evidence?) accordingly and all the jinns embraced Islam.
How ironic can this ever be that a tree gave evidence Who will believe this?
Shaykh-ul-Islam said� Imam Jalal Uddin Suyuti narrates in Al-Qassayes-ul-Qubra and many other Islamic authorities reported in their books that �The great Caliph Umer-e-Farooq narrates that �once, a very old man came to meet holy Prophet , when he was staying in Makkah. The old man was speaking the language of Jinn�s the Prophet asked him �which tribe of Jinn�s you belong to?�, he replied �I am the grandson of Iblees (Satan).� The Prophet asked �tell me your origin�, he replied �I am Ham, the son was Heem, he was the son of Lakhis and Lakhis was the son of Iblees (Satan).� When the Prophet asked about his age, he replied saying �I saw Qabeel (son of Adam ) murdering Habeel (son of Adam ); I was a kid at that time. I embraced Iman (the faith) of Ibraheem and saw his people throwing him into the fire, I tried to extinguish that fire. Then, I embraced Iman (the faith) of Moses and he taught me about the Torah (Gospel) .Finally, I embraced Iman (the faith) of Jesus and he taught me about the Bible.� He further said, �O holy Prophet I have a message for you�. Holy Prophet replied �give me the message�, he said �Jesus said to me that �after my demise, holy Prophet will come as the last Messenger of God , to this world, you will be alive at that time and you will get a chance to meet him. When you meet holy Prophet , convey my salutations to him.� Holy Prophet felt very happy on hearing this from Ham and thanked almighty Allah with tears of happiness in his eyes, he said �Peace be on you and my brother Jesus .� Then holy Prophet asked Ham �do you want anything from me?� Ham said �O Prophet I want to embrace Islam on your hand, please teach me some chapters of holy Quran.� Holy Prophet taught him ten chapters of holy Quran.� After narrating this whole scenario, Umer-e-Farooq a said �after that day, we never saw him again.� If this jinn Ham was a grandson of Satan then how is it possible that Satan can have sons. God will never tolerate anything from Satan and his so called jinns God have forbid them anywhere near heaven how would he gave them mercy if they embraced islam they have turn thier backs on God and followed Satan so there will be no forgiveness for them.
Islamic believe in a jinn is superstitious Arab paganism.
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Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 28 August 2015 at 9:37am
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Why are Muslim apologists always harping on Muhammad being "unlettered"? He recited the Quran. He didn't write it or read it.
Muslim apologists is a misnomer really. Muslims insist on telling everyone that Muhammad PBUH was unlettered to emphasise the point that he could not have authored the Quran. Simple. Recite in arabic means several things. It also means to repeat. He repeated what he heard. I've read plenty of books that are far better. You are not being asked to give your opinion but to offer something similar. There are dozens of contradictions, and whole web sites devoted to documenting them. Muslims charitably refer to them as "abrogations": "Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it." (2:106) So? The moment an accusation is made you find that the Quran already has an answer. And yet the Quran even contradicts itself regarding its contradictions: "And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (6:115) As they say little knowledge is dangerous. Particularly, hastily copied knowledge. Copied and pasted words are not knowledge, really. So, let me explain how you are erring because you are willing to believe anything. Let us examine the correct meanings of both words: "nansakh" and "ayat" as used by God in 2:106 The word "ayat" The word Ayah, as used in various verses in the Quran, can have one of four different meanings: a- It could mean a miracle from God as in: "And We supported Moses with nine profound Ayahs (miracles)." 17:101 b- It could also mean an example for people to take heed from as in: "And the folk of Noah, when they disbelieved the messengers, We have drowned them and made them an Ayah (example) for all people." 25:37 c- The word �Ayah� can also mean a sign as in: "He said, �My Lord, give me an Ayah (sign).� He said, �Your Ayah is that you will not speak to people for three consecutive nights." 19:10 d- Finally, it could mean a verse in the Quran, as in: "This is a book that We have sent down to you that is sacred, perhaps they will reflect on its Ayat (verses)." 38:29 Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, it can easily be verified that the word �Ayah� in this particular verse could not mean a verse in the Quran. It can mean any of the other meanings (miracle, example or sign) but not a verse in the Quran. This is because of the following reasons: 1- The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word �Ayah� in this verse meant a verse in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another (as the interpreters falsely claim) it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten. 2- The words "We replace it with its equal" would be meaningless if the word �Ayah� in this verse meant a Quranic verse, simply because it would make no sense for God to invalidate one verse then replace it with one that is identical to it! 3- If the word �Ayah� in verse 106 meant a miracle, an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words "cause to be forgotten" can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens with the passing of time. The miracles of Moses and Jesus have long been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran. Similarly the words "We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it. Consider the following verse : "And We have sent Moses with Our Ayah�s (miracles or signs) to Pharaoh and his elders proclaiming : �I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe�. When he brought them our Ayah�s they laughed at him. Every Ayah We showed them was greater than the one that preceded it." 43:46-48 Read the rest at: http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/quran/false_accusations/abrogation_claims_(P1216).html The validity of an argument does not depend on the fallibility of its author. The fallibility of the author will impinge upon his credibility. Even if his argument is actually right. If you think the argument is invalid, you need to attack the argument, not the author. This is classic ad hominem. No, I do not agree with your statement. The man behind the argument can and should be questioned if he is not making sense. (You know, if you're going to try to pass of others' words as your own, you might at least remove the extra line breaks. It's a dead giveaway. Tongue) I think the point of the Teapot analogy is that we should assume no God. Not quite the same thing. I may forget to give credit but I do not pretend about anything. And there is no blind assumption of God. There are many signs around us that He is there. Why do you ignore the content in my posts that invite your attention to signs of divine origin behind facts stated in the Quran? I am asking you why do you overlook them? Is it not a sign of your escapism? By the way, you seem to have neglected the main point of Sharlow's paper. He claims that the Teapot argument is circular, because it relies on the a priori assumption that the existence of the teapot is intrinsically improbable. Substitute a more mundane object such as an oblong rock having two craters, he says, and: "Even if we had never observed an oblong space rock with two craters, our general knowledge about outer space would give us good reason to believe that there probably is such a rock." No it wouldn't. Unless he can offer some evidence for its existence, we would still assume that there probably isn't such a rock. Moreover, the existence of a teapot is still vastly more probable a priori than the existence of God. We know that teapots do exist in general. We have many indisputable examples of teapots, whereas we have no such examples of Gods. So, since a teapot's existence is highly unlikely in space, therefore, the existence of God is equally unlikely or more unlikely. Is that what you are trying to assert? Honestly, the teapot argument is so absurd I cannot find words contemptible enough to define it. And Michael Antony, in an article critical of the New Atheism, noted that atheists who invoke items like goblins and the Tooth Fairy in teapot-type arguments are �presenting ridiculous examples and ignoring non-ridiculous ones�. Even �ber-atheist Richard Dawkins, who uses teapot-type arguments, seems to recognize the intrinsic implausibility of the objects invoked in the arguments. Whose "status quo"? Yours or mine? To you, yours and to me mine. You mean evidence for God? No, even if we observed such a phenomenon, we would have no way of connecting it to a god or gods, let alone any particular god. What will you connect it to? Tooth fairies or goblins.......LOL Evidence for God would depend on your conception of what "God" is. The Muslim God could establish His existence by communicating His main message, the Quran -- not to a single person, in secret, 1400 years ago, but directly to all humankind. He could set up His own Web site, radio/TV stations, billboard/leaflet campaign, etc. That's what any sensible person would do if he really wanted to get his message out. (And if he were omnipotent, of course.) And once we established that these media sources were not faked (i.e., did not have a human origin), its authenticity would be inescapable. The Muslim God is the same God that Noah and Abraham worshipped. So, His message would not really be 1400 years old. In any case what does time has anything to do with it? Neither are the means with which it was sent down has anything to do with it. The Quran is a zillion times more potent than modern methods of advertisement. Besides it is not selling anything. It is simply offering guidance.Appealing to your logic and reason not inviting blind faith. The idea of God makes much more sense than unicorns, leprechauns, spaghetti monsters and such drunken- imagination products! Why? I do not know about your proclivities but I would never revere grotesquery. I would revere things that made sense that in any case appear superior, powerful, noble and perfect, self-sufficient and benign. The idea of God does not explain anything. At best, it simply provides a name for our ignorance, and an excuse not to ask for further explanation. If I ask how the universe was created, and your answer is "God", then the obvious next question is, how did God create the universe? This question is dismissed as impertinent and sacrilegious. But it's the same question. There is no harm or shame in accepting that we do not know. It is not correct to deny something that you do not know anything about or that you cannot explain. It may bruise an inflated ego but if you do not deny it sooner or later you will acknowledge it and then you may even understand it. Nobody. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." 1 Corinthians 13:11 Quoting from the Bible? A self-confessed athiest finds something worthwhile in a religious book? Well....well....well! But let me ask you, you put away childish things but never got to the point to start doing manly things? It is also in Christianity, and Hinduism, and Mormonism, and every other religion. And atheism too, for that matter. (You think atheists don't give birth?) Only Islam means submission to the will of God. Which means doing things as per the will of God. Islam. Every other religion is just a different name. More anonymous copy/paste, and as usual your sources are lying to you. An ostrich egg is not compressed at each end, the earth is not egg-shaped, and educated people have known since the ancient Greeks that the earth is a sphere. (Why do you think Columbus tried to sail to the Orient by going west?). Eratosthenes even calculated the diameter of the earth with remarkable accuracy. And most important, the Quran verse 79:30 does not refer to an ostrich egg. Muslim apologists insist on mistranslating this passage, but they are lying to you. (No surprise.) On the contrary, it says: "And after that He spread the earth" -- which if anything suggests that the earth is flat. Apparently the author of the Quran hadn't kept up with the latest Greek scholarship. Tongue Isaac Newton first proposed that Earth was not perfectly round. Instead, he suggested it was an oblate spheroid�a sphere that is squashed at its poles and swollen at the equator. He was correct and, because of this bulge, the distance from Earth's center to sea level is roughly 21 kilometers (13 miles) greater at the equator than at the poles. The shape of the Geode, as it is called, is nearly a perfect sphere, but because the earth is spinning, it is about 21.5 kilometers flatter at the poles, and bulged-out at the equator by about the same amount. There are also other �higher-order� shape deviations which make the Earth slightly pear- shaped with a larger southern hemisphere surface area than in the northern hemisphere, but at a level of a kilometer or so in radial girth. The biggest effect, though, is its polar flattening. If you had a basketball to represent the Earth�s spherical average shape, the flattening would be 21/6500 = about 1/300 the radius of the basketball or 1/32 of an inch�give or take. From NASA: http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a11818.html http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-is-not-round/ The Muslim holy book, the Quran, stated this explicitly 1400 years ago: The Earth is slightly flattened at the poles. Its equatorial diameter is 45 km (28 miles) longer than its polar diameter. But wait, that�s not all. As well as being generally ovoid, the Earth also has a vertical pear-shaped asymmetry, the north pole being 48 m (148 ft) further from the equatorial plane than the south pole.� The �pointy end of the egg �, so to speak, is at about 37� west longitude (400 km off the eastern tip of Brazil) where the equator�s longer axis is 159 m (522 ft) greater than its short axis. The �fat� end is just north of east Papua New Guinea. Source Read more: http://newsrescue.com/the-earth-is-egg-shaped-nasa-validates-quran-ancient-scripture/#ixzz3k7yLf7HtThe Earth is slightly flattened at the poles. Its equatorial diameter is 45 km (28 miles) longer than its polar diameter. But wait, that�s not all. As well as being generally ovoid, the Earth also has a vertical pear-shaped asymmetry, the north pole being 48 m (148 ft) further from the equatorial plane than the south pole.� The �pointy end of the egg �, so to speak, is at about 37� west longitude (400 km off the eastern tip of Brazil) where the equator�s longer axis is 159 m (522 ft) greater than its short axis. The �fat� end is just north of east Papua New Guinea. Source Read more: http://newsrescue.com/the-earth-is-egg-shaped-nasa-validates-quran-ancient-scripture/#ixzz3k7yLf7HtThe Earth is slightly flattened at the poles. Its equatorial diameter is 45 km (28 miles) longer than its polar diameter. But wait, that�s not all. As well as being generally ovoid, the Earth also has a vertical pear-shaped asymmetry, the north pole being 48 m (148 ft) further from the equatorial plane than the south pole.� The �pointy end of the egg �, so to speak, is at about 37� west longitude (400 km off the eastern tip of Brazil) where the equator�s longer axis is 159 m (522 ft) greater than its short axis. The �fat� end is just north of east Papua New Guinea. Source Read more: http://newsrescue.com/the-earth-is-egg-shaped-nasa-validates-quran-ancient-scripture/#ixzz3k7yLf7HtThe Earth is slightly flattened at the poles. Its equatorial diameter is 45 km (28 miles) longer than its polar diameter. But wait, that�s not all. As well as being generally ovoid, the Earth also has a vertical pear-shaped asymmetry, the north pole being 48 m (148 ft) further from the equatorial plane than the south pole.� The �pointy end of the egg �, so to speak, is at about 37� west longitude (400 km off the eastern tip of Brazil) where the equator�s longer axis is 159 m (522 ft) greater than its short axis. The �fat� end is just north of east Papua New Guinea. Source Read more: http://newsrescue.com/the-earth-is-egg-shaped-nasa-validates-quran-ancient-scripture/#ixzz3k7yLf7HtThe Earth is slightly flattened at the poles. Its equatorial diameter is 45 km (28 miles) longer than its polar diameter. But wait, that�s not all. As well as being generally ovoid, the Earth also has a vertical pear-shaped asymmetry, the north pole being 48 m (148 ft) further from the equatorial plane than the south pole.� The �pointy end of the egg �, so to speak, is at about 37� west longitude (400 km off the eastern tip of Brazil) where the equator�s longer axis is 159 m (522 ft) greater than its short axis. The �fat� end is just north of east Papua New Guinea. Source Read more: http://newsrescue.com/the-earth-is-egg-shaped-nasa-validates-quran-ancient-scripture/#ixzz3k7yLf7Ht Read more: http://newsrescue.com/the-earth-is-egg-shaped-nasa-validates-quran-ancient-scripture/#ixzz3k7wrtBu5 So much for your research. You are refuted again and again. Don't you get tired of posturing? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 28 August 2015 at 11:56am
I never understand the thinking on this. How is my ability to face the world without believing in some great fairy king pitiable? How does it cause you trouble? Why does it upset you? Surely the chance of you getting into heaven is increased if you are more devout than the rst of us thus the more disbelievers there are the better your chances. That is unless you don't actually believe it yourself and it's all a life style choice of believing as a "joining a group" thing. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 28 August 2015 at 3:06pm
It is not absurd, I'm afraid. It seems that you still can't accept that about 80% of humanity consider the Quran as ... man made ! (including me). So if Mao's book is man made and the Quran is man made - Where is the problem in the analogy ? ---------------------------------------------------------
And my head being chopped of as the ones from the Banu Quaraiza just to be sure ? ------------------------------------------------------ Regarding the "Free will" debate: More once I have more time. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 August 2015 at 10:42am
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apologist?s=t - Apologist : a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.
Which does not require him to be "lettered".
"Similar" is a matter of opinion. I regard the Book of Mormon to be similar to the Quran in many ways, for instance.
No, if it was forgotten (as for instance in the Battle of Yamama), then it would not have been collected by Zaid and would never have made it into the final version of the Quran.
Equal is not identical. I do agree that it raises the question of why Allah would not have revealed the verse correctly the first time around, so that it would not be necessary for it to be forgotten and replaced with a better one; but I guess Allah can do whatever He wants.
How can you abrogate a miracle? What would that even mean? By the way, I'm surprised that you would be referencing a " http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_1/history_hadith_1_%28P1148%29.html - Quran-alone " Web site. Are you a 19er? Or just not checking references as usual?
Well, Bertrand Russell has been dead for decades, so good luck questioning him. Anyway, if the argument doesn't make sense, attack the argument, not the man making it (which would be me at the moment, not Russell). Gosh, this it Logic 101.  Do I really have to explain to you why ad hominem arguments are fallacious?
That was in a different discussion, and http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32408&PID=198828#198828 - I did respond to it.
No, I'm trying to assert that the a priori likelihood of the teapot's existence is irrelevant to the argument. It could be the most mundane or the most preposterous object imaginable, but we would still want to see evidence for its existence before just assuming it exists. Actually, by substituting "an oblong rock with two craters" Sharlow is playing the same game that he accuses Russell of. The only reason that such a rock is a priori more likely than a teapot is that we already have good observational evidence to tell us that rocks like that are commonplace in orbit around the sun. It is that evidence that allows us to assume we would find such a rock between earth and Mars. Without it, we can assume neither rocks nor teapots nor gremlins nor anything else.
No, to nature. We would want to investigate it to figure out how such a natural phenomenon is possible. As a matter of fact, we already know that the reversing of the poles is a natural phenomenon which has occurred many times in the past and (some say) is overdue to happen again. It would be a huge benefit to humankind if we understood it, and could predict it or even delay or prevent it. Secular science may one day provide that benefit. Religion with its knee-jerk "Goddidit" response will not.
But the Quran is 1400 years old. It is not the scripture that Noah or Abraham followed. Can Islam exist without the Quran? Can it exist without Muhammad as its Prophet?
It is said that the Coca-Cola logo is recognized by 94% of the world's population. I don't know where that number came from, but it sounds about right to me. What percent of the world's population do you think has even seen a Quran? (Bearing in mind that islam has had more than ten times as long to spread its message, of course.)
Exactly. There is no harm or shame in accepting that we don't know how the universe was created. No need to make up fairy stories about it, especially stories that don't even answer the question.
Hmmm, not sure what you mean by "manly", but I would have hoped it would include the virtue of self-reliance, rather than transferring your dependence on your parents to a similar dependence on an invisible "Sky Daddy".
Which is exactly the opposite of an egg, which is elongated, not squashed, at the poles.
No, it didn't. The Quran verse 79:30 does not mention an egg. It says that the Earth is "spread out", i.e. flat. I even confirmed it with a Muslim source ( http://en.islamtoday.net/node/667 - islamtoday.net ), which you apparently ignored.
Repeating the same quote five times does not count as "again and again"; and you haven't yet refuted anything I've said. You just ignore whatever doesn't fit your ideology, and accept whatever anonymous source tells you what you want to hear. But yes, I do get tired of repeating myself. Please read what I write. Unlike you, I don't rely on copy-paste to answer your questions. I put a great deal of effort into writing this, and if you're not going to bother reading it there isn't much point. To repeat: An ostrich egg is elongated, not compressed, at each end. If anything, it is the opposite of the earth, which is an oblate spheroid. However, the deviation from a perfect sphere is so slight that for all pracitcal purposes it is a sphere. Educated people have known since the ancient Greeks that the earth is a sphere so even if the Quran had made that claim it would not be a revelation. All of which is irrelevant, because the Quran does not say the earth is spherical or egg-shaped. Quran verse 79:30 says the earth is "spread out", i.e. flattened. Your sources, as usual, are lying to you. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 31 August 2015 at 8:57am
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Apologist: a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.
a person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial. My objection to the word apologist is because of the above connotation. Islam is not controversial. Therefore, I reject the use of the word apologist in this connection. Which does not require him to be "lettered". True. He was unlettered so that no one could even have an iota of expectation that he could have added anything on his own. "Similar" is a matter of opinion. I regard the Book of Mormon to be similar to the Quran in many ways, for instance. You are simply not capable to understand or handle that challenge because you do know Arabic. However, give me an example of what you consider a similarity from the Book of Mormons. No, if it was forgotten (as for instance in the Battle of Yamama), then it would not have been collected by Zaid and would never have made it into the final version of the Quran. In the battle of Yamama many Qurrah were martyred. But not all, so your attempt at scepticism is poorly constructed. Equal is not identical. I do agree that it raises the question of why Allah would not have revealed the verse correctly the first time around, so that it would not be necessary for it to be forgotten and replaced with a better one; but I guess Allah can do whatever He wants. Wink Of course, He can do anything, anything at all. Including make monkeys out of grown-up men! LOL But let me explain. The Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years. Revelations came in specific circumstances. At times to answer questions that were posed to the Prophet PBUH. Revelations also came regarding what was revealed to the earlier prophets. Therefore, those revelations given to the earlier prophets were superseded by what was given to the Prophet PBUH. How can you abrogate a miracle? What would that even mean? Try to follow the Quranic language. A miracle that a Prophet performs is designed to prove the power of God to the people, that prophet has been sent to. His miracle would mean little or nothing to the Prophet that succeeds him, neither to his people. I hope you can grasp that. By the way, I'm surprised that you would be referencing a "Quran-alone" Web site. Are you a 19er? Or just not checking references as usual? Wink What is a 19er? I search for appropriate answers and references and I use them if I deem them correct. If a 19er offers a correct answer, I take it. And in regard to the second part of your question I want ask you why did you not quote the third point fully? If you had you would have got the answer. See below. 3- If the word �Ayah� in verse 106 meant a miracle, an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words "cause to be forgotten" can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens with the passing of time. The miracles of Moses and Jesus have long been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran. Similarly the words "We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it. More tomorrow. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 31 August 2015 at 2:48pm
I take the challenge to bring forward a poem better than any surah of the quran: It goes: V�in�m�inen ryhtyy rakentamaan venett� ja k�y Tuonelassa pyyt�m�ss� veneenveistoon tarvittavia sanoja, mutta ei saa niit�. V�in�m�inen hakee puuttuvat sanat kuolleen tiet�j�n, Antero Vipusen, vatsasta ja saa veneen valmiiksi. V�in�m�inen l�htee veneell��n kosimaan Pohjolan tyt�rt�. Ilmarinenkin l�htee kosiomatkalle. Pohjolan neito valitsee sammon takojan. Ilmarinen selviytyy kolmesta yliluonnollisesta ty�kokeesta: h�n kynt�� kyisen pellon, pyydyst�� Tuonelan karhun ja Manalan suden sek� lopulta suuren hauen Tuonelan joesta. Louhi lupaa tytt�rens� Ilmariselle. I'd bet you are not be able to find one single surah that can beat this poem. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 01 September 2015 at 7:45am
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I never understand the thinking on this.
How is my ability to face the world without believing in some great fairy king pitiable? The same way you are terrified of people who believe in the one true God who created us all and who created the Universe. How can you not? How does it cause you trouble? Why does it upset you? No, it does not upset me. I am surprised and I am compassionate you have still not found God. Surely the chance of you getting into heaven is increased if you are more devout than the rst of us thus the more disbelievers there are the better your chances. Your logic amazes me! It is this same logic that compels you to disregard the existence of God Almighty. Why don't you understand that if I am really devout I will be concerned about you. I will be a good person and would want to see you in heaven, too. That is unless you don't actually believe it yourself and it's all a life style choice of believing as a "joining a group" thing. I do believe. And it is because I believe I want your salvation, too. I know my God would approve of such humanitarianism. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 01 September 2015 at 8:26am
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I take the challenge to bring forward a poem better than any surah of the quran:
It goes: V�in�m�inen ryhtyy rakentamaan venett� ja k�y Tuonelassa pyyt�m�ss� veneenveistoon tarvittavia sanoja, mutta ei saa niit�. V�in�m�inen hakee puuttuvat sanat kuolleen tiet�j�n, Antero Vipusen, vatsasta ja saa veneen valmiiksi. V�in�m�inen l�htee veneell��n kosimaan Pohjolan tyt�rt�. Ilmarinenkin l�htee kosiomatkalle. Pohjolan neito valitsee sammon takojan. Ilmarinen selviytyy kolmesta yliluonnollisesta ty�kokeesta: h�n kynt�� kyisen pellon, pyydyst�� Tuonelan karhun ja Manalan suden sek� lopulta suuren hauen Tuonelan joesta. Louhi lupaa tytt�rens� Ilmariselle. Are you Sampo Smith? Or, the dead soothsayer? Ilmarinen or V�in�m�inen? In the end do you get Pohjola or do you go into the sunset as the heroes in the westerns do? I am curious why you chose this obscure and mundane text to compare with the Quran? I'd bet you are not be able to find one single surah that can beat this poem. It is hilarious analysing two things that ought not be compared. Cricket and baseball. Basho and Proust. Christmas and April Fools' Day. God and Satan. Scripture and balderdash. But such incongruous comparisons do raise questions about the mental balance of the person who is making them? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 01 September 2015 at 8:50am
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"I know my God would approve of such humanitarianism. "
Oh come off it! What a ridiculous thing to say. Most of the former Muslims that I know say that the reason they finally abandoned Islam was because of the awful tortures that your god reserved for people in hell. They simply could not reconcile the supposedly all-loving god of Islam with the monster that supposedly allows humans to suffer the most unimaginable pain for all eternity. Allah approves of humanitarianism????? I think you've just demonstrated that you are an apologist for Islam by trying to defend such an obviously controversial position. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 01 September 2015 at 8:52am
A Nobel price winner in literature may be ? Part of an internationally recognized jury in literature ? Lol ! -------------------------------------------------------
As told: Simply because it is better than any surah of the Quran! In your first attempt you have miserably failed to prove me wrong. I wish you more luck next time: Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 01 September 2015 at 9:09am
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Well, Bertrand Russell has been dead for decades, so good luck questioning him.
I am questioning you since you are copying or endorsing his views! Anyway, if the argument doesn't make sense, attack the argument, not the man making it (which would be me at the moment, not Russell). Gosh, this it Logic 101. Shocked Do I really have to explain to you why ad hominem arguments are fallacious? An accuser of may be guilty of ignorance or equivocation when he is shouting ad hominem. Therefore, my stand is based on sound logic. No, do not bother, I do understand what a fallacy is and when and how it occurs. That was in a different discussion, and I did respond to it. I am afraid, not. No, to nature. We would want to investigate it to figure out how such a natural phenomenon is possible. As a matter of fact, we already know that the reversing of the poles is a natural phenomenon which has occurred many times in the past and (some say) is overdue to happen again. It would be a huge benefit to humankind if we understood it, and could predict it or even delay or prevent it. Secular science may one day provide that benefit. Religion with its knee-jerk "Goddidit" response will not. I see. So, what do you mean when you say nature? The natural physical world including plants and animals and landscapes etc. A creation that came into existence on its own? Or, are you admitting even inadvertently that Nature is driven by something or someone? But the Quran is 1400 years old. It is not the scripture that Noah or Abraham followed. Can Islam exist without the Quran? Can it exist without Muhammad as its Prophet? I know it is a bit difficult to wrap one's head around the idea that Quran and Islam do not have the same antiquity. Particularly, for half-baked scholars who are too lazy to get their facts right. Or, are not interested in facts. I have explained this so many times! The truth is that Islam dates back to Adam PBUH. Noah and Abraham PBUT both followed the same code that all later prophets did. Submission to the will of Allah. Islam in Arabic means submission to the will of Allah. That is why they were all Muslims. Yes, Jesus PBUH too, was a Muslim. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 September 2015 at 6:32pm
I've opened a separate discussion to answer this challenge: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34457 - a Surah the like thereof . Maybe you would like to add your entry there. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 September 2015 at 7:03pm
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By the way, Mr. Saint, I should apologize for the length of my last post to you, which was almost double my usual personal limit (roughly two screen pages). These discussions can quickly become tedious if we don't keep them under control. Please feel free to respond only to the most important points, and so will I in future. I'll respond to your last two messages, plus anything else you want to add, in a day or so. Ron ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 7:48am
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And who are you to be able to judge the quality of this poem ?
A Nobel price winner in literature may be ? Part of an internationally recognized jury in literature ? Lol ! You did not answer my questions? Does not matter, I knew you will have no answer. Btw, I did not question the quality of the poem? But now that you have brought the matter up let me say it is very, very ordinary. As told: Simply because it is better than any surah of the Quran! Are you willing to support your obviously frivolous claim with some evidence or should I conclude you are a buffoon? In your first attempt you have miserably failed to prove me wrong. There you go hallucinating again! Because I have not even tried to prove anything....yet! You must make a proper claim first. I am still waiting. I wish you better sense. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 7:52am
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By the way, Mr. Saint,
I should apologize for the length of my last post to you, which was almost double my usual personal limit (roughly two screen pages). These discussions can quickly become tedious if we don't keep them under control. Please feel free to respond only to the most important points, and so will I in future. I'll respond to your last two messages, plus anything else you want to add, in a day or so. Ron I am glad you brought-up the subject. Personally, I do not mind long posts. It is only when I am pressed for time when long posts become a little draggy. Anyways, thanks for the thought. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 8:01am
@The Saint
Please explain why you think it is ordinary. ----------------------------------------------
You and your brothers in faith started to claim that there is no surah/poem better/equal than [one in] the Quran - not me. I don't think it is frivoulous (if you think so "why" ?) but just a fact: The poem I posted is better. If you disagree give me your reasons (beyond "it is obvious that ...") why you think that this it is not the case. Your second attempt to prove me wrong was no better than the first one  .
Wishing you even more luck for the next attempt: Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 8:11am
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"I know my God would approve of such humanitarianism. "
Oh come off it! What a ridiculous thing to say. Most of the former Muslims that I know say that the reason they finally abandoned Islam was because of the awful tortures that your god reserved for people in hell. They simply could not reconcile the supposedly all-loving god of Islam with the monster that supposedly allows humans to suffer the most unimaginable pain for all eternity. LOL........that tired gag about ex-Muslims has become so boring. I am amused that you could only find apostates to educate you about Islam? I mean there are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and you had to go to a paltry fraction? Allah approves of humanitarianism????? I think you've just demonstrated that you are an apologist for Islam by trying to defend such an obviously controversial position. Why is this position controversial or apologist? Do I detect a fleck of involuntary resentment? Is it because you cannot, do not aspire to such morality? Or, does the humanist framework, not permit such and similar moral excellence? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 8:22am
I think "humanitarianism" means something quite different to The Saint than it does to most people. He also believes that http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_images/bullet.gif - homosexuals should be hanged out of " http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32408&PID=198987#198987 - genuine humanitarian concern ". ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 8:26am
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It is not absurd, I'm afraid.
It seems that you still can't accept that about 80% of humanity consider the Quran as ... man made ! (including me). Do you have stats to support such a claim? Or, did a fairy whisper in your ears......LOL The Quran is held in high esteem by about 23% of mankind. But do you know how many more believe in it? Or, how many more are taking to it everyday? Given that there are conversions taking place everyday. So if Mao's book is man made and the Quran is man made - Where is the problem in the analogy ? Simple. The Quran is not man made.Its present book form is man-made, yes. But it was revealed by God Almighty. Understand? And my head being chopped of as the ones from the Banu Quaraiza just to be sure ? Banu Quraiza were guilty of treason/treachery. But you are guilty of gross ignorance! So your head stays. Regarding the "Free will" debate: More once I have more time. ???????????? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 8:35am
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I think "humanitarianism" means something quite different to The Saint than it does to most people. He also believes that homosexuals should be hanged out of "genuine humanitarian concern". Shocked
Just as morality has different connotations for you and your ilk. Homosexuals, who claim they are helpless in their sexual leanings lie. They are sick. They should be offered help. But if they refuse help and persist in their depravity they must be punished. Yes. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 9:54am
My ilk minds our own business, and certainly does not kill people over private behaviours that don't affect anyone else. Good thing, too, because you really don't want to know what I think about prostrating yourself on the ground five times a day.
So if homosexuality is a choice, then is heterosexuality a choice as well? Could you choose to have sex with a man, and enjoy it? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 1:47pm
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Oh, I perfectly understand. But I've seen too many people telling me fairy tales with the intention to make me gobble their nonsense. -----------------------------------------------------
Yeah we know this trick! Accusing people you want to get rid of of all sorts of crimes and perversities, deprive them of all human traits and hop, off you go: killing Jews, Unbelievers, Homosexuals, and people with a (European) shoe-size above 43 just as you please. ... And don't forget to confiscate their belongings. Great: Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 03 September 2015 at 7:03am
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Jinns are fiction cause no where in the Jewish history was there any evidence of even a hearsay of so called genies in a lamp.
It is stated Imam Bahaqi in Dalail-e-Nubuwat on the authority of Hadhrat Adullah ibnMasoosd that the Prophet once said to his companions in Makkah. Whosoever from amongst you desires to see the jinns, he should come to me tonight. Hadhrat Abdullah ibn Masood stated that nobody except me came that night. The Prophet took me to a high hill in Makkah.He drew a circle with his foot for me and advise me to keep sitting within in the circle. Seating Hadhrat ibnMasood within that circle,he advanced ahead and then stood at a place. There he started reciting of the Holy Quran.All of a sudden a big group of jinns encircled the Prophet and that group stood as a wall between me and the Prophet and I heard the jinns saying. Who give you evidence that you are the Prophet. There was tree nearby (take note! a tree) The Prophet observed: Will you accept my claim if this tree gives the evidence? The jinns said yes we shall accept it. On that the Prophet called the the tree. The tree came neaby and gave the evidence (what evidence?) accordingly and all the jinns embraced Islam. How ironic can this ever be that a tree gave evidence Who will believe this? Shaykh-ul-Islam said� Imam Jalal Uddin Suyuti narrates in Al-Qassayes-ul-Qubra and many other Islamic authorities reported in their books that �The great Caliph Umer-e-Farooq narrates that �once, a very old man came to meet holy Prophet , when he was staying in Makkah. The old man was speaking the language of Jinn�s the Prophet asked him �which tribe of Jinn�s you belong to?�, he replied �I am the grandson of Iblees (Satan).� The Prophet asked �tell me your origin�, he replied �I am Ham, the son was Heem, he was the son of Lakhis and Lakhis was the son of Iblees (Satan).� When the Prophet asked about his age, he replied saying �I saw Qabeel (son of Adam ) murdering Habeel (son of Adam ); I was a kid at that time. I embraced Iman (the faith) of Ibraheem and saw his people throwing him into the fire, I tried to extinguish that fire. Then, I embraced Iman (the faith) of Moses and he taught me about the Torah (Gospel) .Finally, I embraced Iman (the faith) of Jesus and he taught me about the Bible.� He further said, �O holy Prophet I have a message for you�. Holy Prophet replied �give me the message�, he said �Jesus said to me that �after my demise, holy Prophet will come as the last Messenger of God , to this world, you will be alive at that time and you will get a chance to meet him. When you meet holy Prophet , convey my salutations to him.� Holy Prophet felt very happy on hearing this from Ham and thanked almighty Allah with tears of happiness in his eyes, he said �Peace be on you and my brother Jesus .� Then holy Prophet asked Ham �do you want anything from me?� Ham said �O Prophet I want to embrace Islam on your hand, please teach me some chapters of holy Quran.� Holy Prophet taught him ten chapters of holy Quran.� After narrating this whole scenario, Umer-e-Farooq a said �after that day, we never saw him again.� If this jinn Ham was a grandson of Satan then how is it possible that Satan can have sons. God will never tolerate anything from Satan and his so called jinns God have forbid them anywhere near heaven how would he gave them mercy if they embraced islam they have turn thier backs on God and followed Satan so there will be no forgiveness for them. Islamic believe in a jinn is superstitious Arab paganism. So, what do the two incidents above tell you? Obviously, nothing. So what if Jewish history does not mention them. That is no criteria. It is like saying because my mother never told me about them therefore, goblins cannot exist. A tree giving evidence. A grandson of Satan appearing before the Prophet PBUH? Both appear quite improbable? Well so does the Spaghetti Monster. But.......surprise, surprise..........one such spag monster was spotted off the coast of Angola. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28022-flying-spaghetti-monster-caught-on-video-off-the-angolan-coast/ I cannot understand why it is difficult for you to believe that Satan could have offspring? However, Jinns do exist, Airmano! Why don't you do what I suggested to you. Go to a quiet, deserted place after dark and try to call out to them. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 03 September 2015 at 11:04pm
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@ The Saint
Who posted your above citation ? ------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
Well, I tried to call them in French last night (which language do Jinns actually speak ??) until the neighbour came and asked me what the **** I was doing. Now I know that Jinns do exist, they are my neighbours ! Welcome to Jinnistan! Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 04 September 2015 at 4:01am
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Please explain why you think it is ordinary.
I am reasonably sure.....even...you would know that. However, since you have claimed it to be equal to a divine surah I am asking you to go ahead and prove it here how? You and your brothers in faith started to claim that there is no surah/poem better/equal than [one in] the Quran - not me. Of course, I said it. And I am saying it again. But I cannot understand why you chose this poem? They are chalk and cheese! They are not comparable in any conceivable manner. It is hilarious analysing two things that ought not be compared. Cricket and baseball. Basho and Proust. Christmas and April Fools' Day. God and Satan. Scripture and balderdash. But such incongruous comparisons do raise questions about the mental balance of the person who is making them? I don't think it is frivoulous (if you think so "why" ?) but just a fact: The poem I posted is better. You have a right to an opinion, no matter how cockeyed it is. But you cannot become a public nuisance by posting non sequiturs. If you disagree give me your reasons (beyond "it is obvious that ...") why you think that this it is not the case. You need to first list the criteria you used to select this poem to compare with a surah of the Quran. Also, which surah did you think it could compare with? Your second attempt to prove me wrong was no better than the first one . O, I am not trying to prove you wrong. I know I am dealing with imbecility here. So, I am in the process of finding the most polite method to express myself here. Wishing you even more luck for the next attempt: May Allah SWT..........have mercy on you. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 04 September 2015 at 8:00am
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My ilk minds our own business, and certainly does not kill people over private behaviours that don't affect anyone else. Good thing, too, because you really don't want to know what I think about prostrating yourself on the ground five times a day. Wink
I have observed that you answer my posts selectively. Picking-up my statements from here and there. Why can you not stand-up like a man and answer all. However, let us see what we have here. I wish you were as tolerant as you claim! But you are not. You appear to be secular only because you have drifted away from your religion, Christianity or Judaism or whatever. Incidents of hate violence against Asians in general and Muslims in particular, like attacking women or tearing-off their hijabs demonstrate how secular or brave you are. Or, how really mind your own business. So if homosexuality is a choice, then is heterosexuality a choice as well? Could you choose to have sex with a man, and enjoy it? Astaghfirullah! I would hate myself even if the idea came to my mind. Homosexuality is a disease, it is not a choice. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 04 September 2015 at 8:30am
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Airmano:
It seems that you still can't accept that about 80% of humanity consider the Quran as ... man made ! (including me). The Saint: Do you have stats to support such a claim? Or, did a fairy whisper in your ears......LOL Just read your own line that follows the one I cite above. My line: The Quran is held in high esteem by about 23% of mankind. But do you know how many more believe in it? Or, how many more are taking to it everyday? Given that there are conversions taking place everyday. Oh, I perfectly understand. But I've seen too many people telling me fairy tales with the intention to make me gobble their nonsense. I do not know what type of people you consort with. And what type of 'fairies' you befriend. But if you are gullible enough to believe in evolution you deserve all the nonsense you get. Yeah we know this trick! Accusing people you want to get rid of of all sorts of crimes and perversities, deprive them of all human traits and hop, off you go: killing Jews, Unbelievers, Homosexuals, and people with a (European) shoe-size above 43 just as you please. ... And don't forget to confiscate their belongings. Great: Airmano You know many tricks. And I know your brethren also know many more tricks. Thus you are all mostly tricksters. So varied are the tricks you play on others that before they realise they are being played you are away and off. Just so that you know, that I know what you are upto. A little bit of it goes like this: �My opinion of Christian Zionists? They�re scum. But don�t tell them that. We need all the useful *****s we can get right now,� � Bibi Netanyahu, prime minister of Israel. And quite like this: Many countries of Europe had vast colonies in all parts of the world, from where the resources and wealth were looted and channeled back to their European states, allowing the colonies to remain undeveloped. While internally they espoused high ideals, they had no qualms in exploiting the rest of the world for their selfish purposes. Other parts of the world like north America were newly discovered with fresh resources convenient for settling in after oppressing the original inhabitants. Slaves were available for doing all the hard labor. The relative material comfort allowed the nations the luxury of building institutions of learning which nurtures more intellectual and artistic pursuits too. In these circumstances, it is fair to ask if their development today rests on the foundations of injustice and robbery. After all, a robber who steals from the innocent cannot pride himself on his wealth by claiming he was smart while the victims were weak. Petty cunning and military intimidation of harmless regions cannot be equated to superiority of a civilization. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 04 September 2015 at 9:10am
re: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33734&PID=199157#199157 - Today at 10:00am
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33734&PID=199113#199113 - As I said , I was waiting for you to finish responding to my post of http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33734&PID=199049#199049 - 2015 August 29 at 12:42pm -- explaining for instance why you felt that Allah's method of disseminating the Quran was "a zillion times more potent than modern methods of advertisement", despite a roughly 20% success rate in 1400 years. But never mind. Here is my response to your other posts: re: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33734&PID=199069#199069 - 2015 August 31 at 10:57am
Most of the world does not believe Islam. If that doesn't make it controversial, then I don't know what would.
Why couldn't he? Again, he was reciting, not writing.
I responded to this as a separate topic, http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34457 - a Surah the like thereof .
Not all, but enough to raise the concern that verses might have been lost. We obviously cannot say with certainty, because if verses were lost, well, they were lost, so how would we know?
Which still leaves the question of why Allah didn't get it right the first time, for the earlier prophets, so that they wouldn't need to be abrogated and replaced.
Nope, sorry, can't grasp it. What would it mean to abrogate a miracle? Why would Allah need it to be forgotten? In what sense is a miracle replaced by another miracle?
Sorry, I've seen "19er" used here before and thought it was a common term among Muslims, but apparently not. The quran-islam.org Web site supports Dr. Rashad Khalifa's contention that the Quran contains a http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/miracle_of_the_quran_%28P1313%29.html - mathematical pattern based on the number 19, which guards its integrity (rather like a computer checksum). The site also rejects the authenticity and/or authority of the sunna and hadith, claiming (as I would, if I were a Muslim) that the http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_1/history_hadith_1_%28P1148%29.html - Quran alone is sufficient. Most Muslims would consider it heretical on both counts. But hey, I'm glad we can agree that the fallibility of the author does not impinge upon the credibility of his argument. If that applies to Russell's Teapot as well, then I think we're making progress.
I didn't quote it fully because it didn't add anything substantial or answer my questions above. And besides, it didn't make sense. The miracles of Moses and Jesus haven't been forgotten. They are documented in great detail in the Bible -- see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+7-12&version=ESV - Exodus chapters 7 - 12 , for example. re: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33734&PID=199100#199100 - 2015 September 01 at 11:09am
Maybe you would like to indicate a specific point that I overlooked. Otherwise, I'm at a loss to know what you're referring to.
By "nature" I mean anything that exists and obeys natural laws -- many of which we still do not understand, but which are at least in principle able to be understood. We don't know how the present "big bang" universe came to exist, or what if anything preceded it, but there is no reason to suppose that it was created by some Intelligent Being which does not conform to the laws of nature.
Can you be a Muslim without acknowledging Muhammad as the last Prophet? re: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33734&PID=199157#199157 - Today at 10:00am
Good, so we've established that homosexuality is not a choice. You call it a disease. Why? And why would you hate someone who has a disease? And if they don't want your "cure", what right have you to impose it on them? ==== Please let me know if I've missed anything significant. I'll be happy to respond. Meanwhile, maybe you'd like to respond to my topic, http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34457&PID=199106#199106 - a Surah the like thereof , which answers your question about scriptures similar to the Quran. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |