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sunni - shia ?

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Topic: sunni - shia ?
Posted By: Caringheart
Subject: sunni - shia ?
Date Posted: 01 March 2015 at 8:14pm
I don't know where else to put this question....

When did the sunni-shia split take shape?  When did the battles between the two begin?
During the Ottoman empire wasn't there one islam?  Or were there sunni-shia battles going on, even then?
Has Saudi-arabia always stood alone?


When did islam begin to be referred to as 'religion of peace'?  and why?  Where does this conception come from?
Is it, has it been, because muslims us the greeting asalaam alaykum?


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis



Replies:
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 10:36pm
I'm reviving this thread.
I can't believe there have been no responses.

I am listening to the interview of Charlie Rose with with Haider al-Abadi, and again find myself asking the question...

Was the Ottoman empire Sunni or Shia?

I ask this because we now have,

Saudi Arabia - Sunni
Iran - Shia
Syria - Shia
Iraq - majority Shia

How did this come about?


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: 6wlds2go
Date Posted: 26 May 2016 at 6:12pm
This is a history as well  political and theology topic, hardly a laymen qualification.

Amazingly I heard few times laymen discussing this topic.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 May 2016 at 5:34pm
Greetings 6wlds2go,

Thanks for replying here.  I have been wanting to revive this thread again.

I have been wanting to ask;

What is the difference in practice of a sunni versus a shia?
Why do they fight one another?

What would a sunni leader impose that a shia can not accept?
and what would a shia leader impose that a sunni can not accept?

Why do sunni leaders not treat shia as equals?
and why do shia leaders not treat sunni as equals?

What in all practicality is the difference between them?  other than a political power struggle from centuries ago?

I would like to know what it is that a sunni finds so difficult about a shia leadership?

Shukran and salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: Mahdi1992
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 1:09pm
Hi
Shia and Sunni are the same, just a bit of difference.
and those who fight their Muslim brothers are ignorant.
Like those ignorant who killed each other in the name of Protestant and Catholic in Europe.
The Common things between them are :
1-Pray the Same God
2-Pray The Same Direction (Mecca)
3-Travel (Pilgrimage) to Mecca (Haj)
4-Fast The Same Month
5-Follow The Teachings of Prophet (Peace be Upon Him)(Called Sunnah)
6-Paying Zakat( a form of alms-giving and religious tax in Islam)
7-Believing in the other world and the life after.The Last Judgement
8-...


Now The Differences
The Sunnis believe that after Prophet of Islam, There were four Men taking his place for ruling the Government.
1-Abubakr
2-Omar
3-Osman
4-Ali (Peace be Upon Him)

Shia Believes Prophet Himself introduced his Successorو Ali (Peace be Upon Him) but the Ruling Position was taken away from him by the Abubakr, Omar and Osman

Also

Shia historians hold that Umar called for Ali (PBUH) and his men to come out and swear allegiance to Abu Bakr. When they did not, Umar broke in, resulting in Fatimah's ribs being broken by being pressed between the door and the wall causing her to miscarry Muhsin which led to her eventual death (Martyrdom).

Fatima (PBUH) is the only daughter of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and of of Ali (PBUH)



Shia Believes after Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) There are 12 Successors Determined By Allah, Carrying The Mission of Guidance The whole world that who are worthy of ruling   the Islamic State. 11 of them have been Killed (martyred) and the last of them is alive and hidden which will be back with Jesus (PBUH) in The end to save the world from oppression and darkness.


Posted By: Mahdi1992
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 2:01pm
These Statistics may be useful



Iran
90% to 95% Shia
8% to 4%   Sunni
2%        non-Muslim -Christians, Jews, Bahais, Mandeans, Yezidis, Yarsanis, and Zoroastrians


Iraq
65%-60% Shia
40%-35% Sunni
5% non-Muslims (mainly Assyrian Christians)

Syria
74%    Sunni Muslims
59–60% Sunni Arabs   
9%     Kurds
3%     Turkomen are Sunni
13%    Shia (Alawite, Twelvers, and Ismailis combined)
10%    Christian

Saudi Arabia
75–90% Sunni "Salafi"
10–25% Shia



Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 28 November 2017 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by adyiqbal adyiqbal wrote:

I think Iran is the biggest place of Shia's. 95% State belongs to Shia community. I think, after the incident of Karbala, Shia Sunni conflict started.



The word 'shia' came to be born in this Ummah at the martyrdom of 3rd Caliph Uthman Bin Affan (r.a). 2 groups came in to being. One was Shia of Ali - Party of Ali and the other was Shia of Uthman - Party of Uthman. The Shia of Uthman demanded the Shia of Ali to hand over the murderers which eventually led towards battle between them.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 November 2017 at 7:12pm
My question is,
 in what way are their practices so different, that they fight with one another?

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 November 2017 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Mahdi1992 Mahdi1992 wrote:

Hi
Shia and Sunni are the same, just a bit of difference.
and those who fight their Muslim brothers are ignorant.
Like those ignorant who killed each other in the name of Protestant and Catholic in Europe.
The Common things between them are :
1-Pray the Same God
2-Pray The Same Direction (Mecca)
3-Travel (Pilgrimage) to Mecca (Haj)
4-Fast The Same Month
5-Follow The Teachings of Prophet (Peace be Upon Him)(Called Sunnah)
6-Paying Zakat( a form of alms-giving and religious tax in Islam)
7-Believing in the other world and the life after.The Last Judgement
8-...


Now The Differences
The Sunnis believe that after Prophet of Islam, There were four Men taking his place for ruling the Government.
1-Abubakr
2-Omar
3-Osman
4-Ali (Peace be Upon Him)

Shia Believes Prophet Himself introduced his Successorو Ali (Peace be Upon Him) but the Ruling Position was taken away from him by the Abubakr, Omar and Osman

Also

Shia historians hold that Umar called for Ali (PBUH) and his men to come out and swear allegiance to Abu Bakr. When they did not, Umar broke in, resulting in Fatimah's ribs being broken by being pressed between the door and the wall causing her to miscarry Muhsin which led to her eventual death (Martyrdom).

Fatima (PBUH) is the only daughter of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and of of Ali (PBUH)


Shia Believes after Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) There are 12 Successors Determined By Allah, Carrying The Mission of Guidance The whole world that who are worthy of ruling   the Islamic State. 11 of them have been Killed (martyred) and the last of them is alive and hidden which will be back with Jesus (PBUH) in The end to save the world from oppression and darkness.

Greetings Mahdi,  I've just read your reply.
So it is essentially nothing more than a political power struggle from centuries ago?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 28 November 2017 at 7:27pm
Shias and Sunnis don't have any major issues except for difference of opinions in religious matters which are not of conflicting nature. Various governments and dynasties in the past till our times have manipulated the Shia or Sunni thought for political purposes to gain power in the Muslim world and rule people. Thats what really has caused the fighting.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 29 November 2017 at 7:04am
Originally posted by syed_z syed_z wrote:

Shias and Sunnis don't have any major issues except for difference of opinions in religious matters which are not of conflicting nature. people.


If differences within Sunni Islam are of a conflicting nature, how is not between Shia and Sunni? Wishful thinking is what I'd call your comment, or perhaps overly optimistic.   


Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 29 November 2017 at 7:29am
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

If differences within Sunni Islam are of a conflicting nature, how is not between Shia and Sunni? Wishful thinking is what I'd call your comment, or perhaps overly optimistic.   


The conflict you referring to within Sunni umbrella is not due to religious differences (Ikhtilaaf). Its due to one thought beginning to believe that they are better than others and others are all misguided.
The point where a school of thought becomes sectarian is when they become intolerant of the beliefs of other thoughts. For example during times when Ottomans ruled Makkah and Madinah, there was Imams of all 4 Sunni school of thoughts that preached and prayed harmoniously in the grand mosques without any conflicts. Therefore the issues you notice in our times is due to intolerance. The fact that Shias and Sunnis pray behind each other in Makkah and Madinah, go to the same hajj and even visit each others Mosques and have done so in the past shows that there is no major conflict due to religious principles.

Initially it is increase of intolerance that has lighted the fire. The intolerance that has emerged within the Muslims for each other is being played in to the hands of the political powers which has made things worst. For example Saudi Bloc vs Iran. Sadly.

This intolerance is due to lack of knowledge and spread of ignorance. A sign of the end times as per The Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassallam) who said 'Among the signs of the last days is the raising up of knowledge and spread of ignorance.'.... this we believe refers to the religious knowledge and religious ignorance, and Allah (swt) knows best.


Posted By: IslamLearner
Date Posted: 29 November 2017 at 9:34pm
Dear Brother ,

To understand Islam just like any other religion or field of knowledge you need to understand it from its authentic resource,, just like if you want to understand about Astronomy you will refer to Astronomy book, similarly to understand any Islamic query you need to understand it in context of Quran. you can go to Quran.com to refer to English translations

Quranic view is that ( not my view but Quranic view ) :

1. God send same religion to (Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus ...) PBUH  and all other known messengers till Mohammad PBUH,

2. It means in strict Quranic context there has been only one religion send by God from Adam till last Messenger

3. The concept of one God can be found in all major scriptures

Shia vs Sunni
---------------

1. First thing to notice Prophet Mohammad never claim himself shia or sunni
2. It started from political dispute when one group of muslims wanter Ali to become caliph where as majority of muslims elected Abu Bakar as caliph
3. One group wanted Ali to be caliph because he was from Prophet's family ( Ali was son of Prophet's uncle)
4. until that point there was disagreement but label of sunni or shia was not official thing
5. These disagreements remain and get stronger until death of Usman and finally after brutal killing of Imam Hussain and his companions
6. That was the point when some scholars from muslim society emerge and label of Shia get invented and the rest got label of Sunni

Quranic verdict on Sunni or Shia ?
---------------------------------------

1. Quran don't teach or motivate to divide islam in any sect

2. Even relgions like Judaism / Christianity are sects of Islam from Quranic point of view, e.g. Messenger on Jews was send by God to spread message of Islam ( remember in light of Quran there was only one religion since Adam )
but later Jews and similarly Christians label themselves with Judaism and Christianity

Why there was only one religion since Adam ?
----------------------------------------------------

Strictly from Quranic context because Quran said it that God send only one religion on face of earth from beginning and Quran chooses the world "Islam" for religion which God send since Adam

Why Islam is consider as religion of peace ?
------------------------------------------------

1. Again we are talking about Islam , not muslims, bad muslims good muslims are everywhere just like good christians bad christians everywhere

2. There are Quranic verses on humanity , that killing of one equivalent to killing entire humanity and then Quran also talk about how to provide shelter and escort women, children and elders in war situation

3. Off course Quran does not teach you to do noting if you get attacked and your life and family is in danger and Quran teach you to protect yourself defensively.

4. There are some verses about killing non muslim which is greatly misunderstood without considering its context, again those verses are mentioning war situation with non muslims who were severe enemies of muslims that time and wanted to destroy them

5. Apart from battle field situation with enemies Islam does not allow any muslim to harm any other muslim or non muslim and killing an innocent is one of the most major sin Islam


 




Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 30 November 2017 at 6:26am
Syed I totally agree that intolerance and ignorance are problematic and used to further strife, however there exists clear sharia differences between the groups, enough in which intolerance can, and does, rear it's ugly head. Allahu Mustaan.


Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 30 November 2017 at 10:21am
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Syed I totally agree that intolerance and ignorance are problematic and used to further strife, however there exists clear sharia differences between the groups, enough in which intolerance can, and does, rear it's ugly head. Allahu Mustaan.


Asalaam O Alaikum,

No doubt there does exist some major differences in principles between Shia and Sunni. No doubt thats the reason why the Shias are separate from the Sunni Umbrella. One of the major thing that separates us (mainstream) from Shias is concept of Imamaah. Its like a pillar of Islam for them. Allah choosing Imams like Prophets and their being infallible like Prophets. Thats what brings their concept of Imam at par with Prophethood, which the main Sunni thought can never accept as there is no clear evidence in Quran and the Hadith/Sunnah that supports it.

Nevertheless that is still not sufficient to fight over because other than that, Salah, Quran, finality of Prophethood, Hajj & Umrah, belief of hereafter, Fasting, all of them is exactly the same.

However, even within Shia thought there have existed many and still remain such as Zaydi Shias, with whom there exists almost no differences with Sunnis.


As for Shariah, which is the law, its the same. Honestly, I'm not sure of any differences in Shariah. May be you can shed some light.

JazakAllah khayr.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 01 December 2017 at 6:40am
On this board there are endless threads on differences with respect to jurisprudence, however let us pray that blood isn't shed because of this. At the end of the day I certainly hope for the tawfeeq of the following hadith.

From The Hadith Of Mu`Adh. Allah's Messenger (Pbuh) Said, "Oh Mu`Adh, Do You Know The Right Of Allah Over His Slaves And What The Slaves' Right Is Over Allah?"

     I (Mu`Adh) Said, "Allah And His Messenger Know Best."

     He (Pbuh) Said, "Allah's Right Over His Slaves Is That They Worship Him And Associate Nothing With Him, And The Right Of The Slaves Over Allah Is That He Who Does Not Associate Anything With Him Will Not Be Punished." [Related By Al-Bukhari]


Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 01 December 2017 at 6:40pm
abuayisha,

JazakAllah for sharing such a beautiful hadith.


Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 02 December 2017 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by IslamLearner IslamLearner wrote:

Dear Brother ,To understand Islam just like any other religion or field of knowledge you need to understand it from its authentic resource,, just like if you want to understand about Astronomy you will refer to Astronomy book, similarly to understand any Islamic query you need to understand it in context of Quran. you can go to Quran.com to refer to English translations Quranic view is that ( not my view but Quranic view ) : 1. God send same religion to (Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus ...) PBUH  and all other known messengers till Mohammad PBUH, 2. It means in strict Quranic context there has been only one religion send by God from Adam till last Messenger3. The concept of one God can be found in all major scriptures Shia vs Sunni ---------------1. First thing to notice Prophet Mohammad never claim himself shia or sunni 2. It started from political dispute when one group of muslims wanter Ali to become caliph where as majority of muslims elected Abu Bakar as caliph 3. One group wanted Ali to be caliph because he was from Prophet's family ( Ali was son of Prophet's uncle)4. until that point there was disagreement but label of sunni or shia was not official thing 5. These disagreements remain and get stronger until death of Usman and finally after brutal killing of Imam Hussain and his companions6. That was the point when some scholars from muslim society emerge and label of Shia get invented and the rest got label of Sunni Quranic verdict on Sunni or Shia ? ---------------------------------------1. Quran don't teach or motivate to divide islam in any sect2. Even relgions like Judaism / Christianity are sects of Islam from Quranic point of view, e.g. Messenger on Jews was send by God to spread message of Islam ( remember in light of Quran there was only one religion since Adam )but later Jews and similarly Christians label themselves with Judaism and ChristianityWhy there was only one religion since Adam ? ----------------------------------------------------Strictly from Quranic context because Quran said it that God send only one religion on face of earth from beginning and Quran chooses the world "Islam" for religion which God send since Adam Why Islam is consider as religion of peace ?------------------------------------------------1. Again we are talking about Islam , not muslims, bad muslims good muslims are everywhere just like good christians bad christians everywhere 2. There are Quranic verses on humanity , that killing of one equivalent to killing entire humanity and then Quran also talk about how to provide shelter and escort women, children and elders in war situation 3. Off course Quran does not teach you to do noting if you get attacked and your life and family is in danger and Quran teach you to protect yourself defensively. 4. There are some verses about killing non muslim which is greatly misunderstood without considering its context, again those verses are mentioning war situation with non muslims who were severe enemies of muslims that time and wanted to destroy them5. Apart from battle field situation with enemies Islam does not allow any muslim to harm any other muslim or non muslim and killing an innocent is one of the most major sin Islam  




Asalaam O Alaikum IslamLearner,

Thank you for sharing all these kind words. You are correct and there is no doubt that religion in the sight of God was always Islam (i.e. Submission to the Will of Allah). However intellectual dissension is part of human nature and Allah (swt) brings our attention towards it. Disagreements is part of human nature. The entire mankind cannot become exactly same. In other words everyone cannot be a a Muslim in the absolute sense of this word.

“… And if Allah had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community …”
(Qur’ān, al-Māidah, 5:48)

Also Allah (swt) does say in several places in the Quran that other nations such as Jews, Christians, Sabians and others have believers within them, those people have faith. They are not following Islam but Allah (swt) does bear witness to some of those nations as people having faith and has not termed all of them as disbelievers i.e. those who rejected faith.

“VERILY, those who have attained to faith [i.e. Muslims], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous deeds – shall have their reward with their Lord-God; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.”
(Qur’ān, al-Baqarah, 2:62)

Nevertheless that should not keep us i.e. Muslims to not continue the Dawah mission for we should continue doing Dawah by our actions and words as Allah (swt) has given us the job to bear witness to the truth after Rasool Allah (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam). The final decision of their fate will be by Allah:

“You (Muslims) are an excellent community evolved (by divine wisdom) for the sake of mankind, (provided that you) enjoin what is right, forbid what is wrong, and believe in Allah. (Quran Al Imran 3:110)

Some points to think.

Similarly the Shia and Sunni split was a historical incident due to political factors of that time but it has left a permanent mark on this Ummah. Generations of Muslims have followed for several centuries each thought and its almost impossible to make them exactly one. Therefore as Muslims they need to focus on righteousness, good deeds, instead of focusing on each groups faults and wrong. They need to focus on these words ...Your are an excellent community ....enjoin what is good and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah....' (Al Quran 3:110)


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 December 2017 at 9:53pm
Quote ...enjoin what is good and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah....' (Al Quran 3:110)

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. (the words of Paul in his letter to the Romans)

I just feel the need to share this...
when I saw that verse from the qur'an it rang familiar...
and so often I have spoken with muslims who reject the Bible because they reject Paul of the Bible who brought the Word of God....
and yet here we see that the qur'an has used the very same words (in slightly different form) that Paul first brought to us.

Peace and blessings,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: t_path
Date Posted: 03 December 2017 at 2:21am
You are right!.Also there have been a lot of myths and misconceptions about the whole affair.Initially Shia was started a s a political divide and by now it has become a spiritual divide (in terms of belief-at least among some sects of it unfortunately)


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 03 December 2017 at 6:24am
Caringheart, how have you been?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 December 2017 at 12:10pm
Greetings abuayisha,

I have had a good many trials this past year.  That is why I have been absent.
Thank you kindly for your greeting and for asking. 
I hope that you have been well.
asalaam alaikum,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 05 December 2017 at 7:42am
All the best to you, and welcome back.



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