The Original Sin
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32408
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Topic: The Original Sin
Posted By: The Saint
Subject: The Original Sin
Date Posted: 21 November 2014 at 2:08am
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Dear Brothers and Sisters
Assalaamualaikum I wish to raise a question which is at the foundation of inter-faith dialogue. The Original Sin. The idea is central to Christianity. In fact, it is the justification for raising Jesus PBUH to the status of a god. I wonder at times how can an average christian believe in such a concept. Particularly, when there is ample evidence evidence in the Bible itself that rejects it. Let us first see the OT: Gen. 3:14 "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, 'Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life'". This is a curse upon the serpent and that too only a worldly one. Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Deuteronomy 24:16) �The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.� The Bible is very clear that no person will be responsible for the sins of others. Each person is answerable for himself alone and cannot blame it on Adam and Eve. Btw, this concept matches exactly the Qur�anic point on this issue. In the NT Jesus says: "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 19:14 (also Mark 10:14, and Luke 18:16). So Jesus (pbuh) himself is telling us that children are born without sin and are destined for heaven without qualification. In other words, no one is born stained with an original sin. Once again, the teachings of Islam. Islam teaches that you are destined for salvation from your very birth. This will be your reward unless you refuse this gift and insist on disobeying God. 2) All the many millennia of previous prophets (Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Noah, ...etc.) and their people are all condemned to never receive true salvation simply because Jesus, the alleged "Son of God," arrived too late to save them. In other words, they have sin forced upon them (by Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:22) and the chance for redemption withheld from them (By Jesus' late arrival after their death, Galatians 2:16). Paul says "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Romans 5:14 If Jesus had only arrived as soon as Adam committed his sin and not thousands of generations later then maybe all of these generations could have received true salvation (like this generation). 3) What right did the prophets of God have to deceive their people and tell them that they would receive eternal salvation and expiation from their sins if they but kept the commandments? What right did they have to teach them all of these commandments and the observance of the Sabbath and other hardships if all of their works were worthless and belief in Jesus' sacrifice which would not occur till many thousands of years after their death was the only way to salvation, or as Paul put it : "a man is not justified by the works of the law ... for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.." Galatians 2:16. Jesus (pbuh), however, tells us that "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18-19. |
Replies:
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 21 November 2014 at 2:11am
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THIRTEEN REASONS WHY THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS FALSE
The doctrine of original sin is false because: 1. It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime. 2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than blame for his sins. 3. It excuses the sinner. 4. It makes God responsible for sin. 5. It dishonors God. It makes him arbitrary, cruel, and unjust. 6. It causes ministers to wink at and excuse sin. 7. It begets complacency and a low standard of religion among Christians. 8. It is a stumbling-block to the unsaved. 9. It makes Jesus a sinner or it must deny his humanity. 10. It contradicts the Bible. 11. It "adds to" and "takes from" the Bible. God warns against this in Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18, 19. 12. It begets false doctrines and false interpretations of the Scriptures. 13. It is ridiculous, absurd, and unreasonable. It contradicts the necessary and irresistible affirmations of every man's consciousness and reason, which is something that no true doctrine of the Word of God could do. |
Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 22 November 2014 at 2:01am
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Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 22 November 2014 at 11:55am
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Saint, where on earth did you get those 13 statements???
------------- kingskid |
Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 22 November 2014 at 1:44pm
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Okay, Saint, I see you may be trying to base your interpretation of what is original sin on the Biblical scriptures you cherry-picked. However, if you do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God, why would you use it to debunk what you don't believe in anyway? If it is because you are attempting to persuade me from my own scriptures, it would only work if you did not take verses out of context and twist them to fit into your own beliefs. You aren't the only Muslim on this site that does this, but it is to no avail when the context is ignored. The concept of original sin, or man's inherent sin nature, goes back before the serpent in the Garden. It began in Gen. 2:16-17, "16 And the Lord God commanded the man, �You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.� Adam and Eve disobeyed and they died, not physically of course, but spiritually. They lost not only their innocence, but more importantly, they lost fellowship with God and were driven out of His presence. None of the other scriptures you quote pertain to original sin. And, the Matthew, Mark and Luke scriptures you quote simply do not talk about the sinlessness of little children, but about their simple faith and ability to believe. Something adults often struggle with. As to the OT and how their sins were atoned for, on the Day of Atonement, the Jewish high priest went into the temple to offer sacrifice for his sins first and then for the sins of the people. The sacrificial Lamb that he offered was an archetype of Yeshua, Who was to come, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. I especially like the J.B. Phillips translation of Rom. 5:15: " 15 But the gift of God through Christ is a very different matter from the �account rendered� through the sin of Adam. For while as a result of one man�s sin death by natural consequence became the common lot of men, it was by the generosity of God, the free giving of the grace of one man Jesus Christ, that the love of God overflowed for the benefit of all men." Yeshua did not arrive too late to save the Jews; they had the Day of Atonement, which looked forward to the cross. For the last two thousand years, Christians look back to the cross and Yeshua's sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection. Yeshua was never raised to the status of a god. He was God clothed in humanity from His conception. John 1:1-18: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God� 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband�s will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John testified
concerning him. He cried out, saying, �This is the one I spoke about
when I said, �He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was
before me.�) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." ------------- kingskid |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 28 November 2014 at 1:51am
Are you questioning the accuracy of the statements? Or, do you wish to learn the source? |
kingskid wrote:Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 28 November 2014 at 2:44am
However, if you do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God, why would you use it to debunk what you don't believe in anyway? I did it to show you that the Bible is inconsistent. One part says something and the other part opposes it. And the Quran gives us a criterion that if anything is from other than Allah it is sure to have discrepancies? � If it is because you are attempting to persuade me from my own scriptures, it would only work if you did not take verses out of context and twist them to fit into your own beliefs.� You aren't the only Muslim on this site that does this, but it is to no avail when the context is ignored.The concept of original sin, or man's inherent sin nature, goes back before the serpent in the Garden. I do not like to win arguments for personal glory. I am a slave of Allah. Therefore, I try to present facts to the best of my knowledge. However, if you feel I have quoted out of context, you are welcome to show me and correct me. As regards the 'earliest source' of the so-called Original Sin, I shall be grateful if you could add to my knowledge. Please tell me. � It began in Gen. 2:16-17, "<span id="en-NIV-47" ="text="" gen-2-16"=""><sup ="versenum"="">16�And the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord</span> God commanded the man, �You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;</span> <span id="en-NIV-48" ="text="" gen-2-17"=""><sup ="versenum"="">17�but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.�</span>� Adam and Eve disobeyed and they died, not physically of course, but spiritually.� They lost not only their innocence, but more importantly, they lost fellowship with God and were driven out of His presence.� None of the other scriptures you quote pertain to original sin.� And, the Matthew, Mark and Luke scriptures you quote simply do not talk about the sinlessness of little children, but about their simple faith and ability to believe.� Something adults often struggle with. I think you failed to prove that the idea of the Original Sin predates the serpent incident. As to the OT and how their sins were atoned for, on the Day of Atonement, the Jewish high priest went into the temple to offer sacrifice for his sins first and then for the sins of the people.� The sacrificial Lamb that he offered was an archetype of Yeshua, Who was to come, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.� I especially like the J.B. Phillips translation of Rom. 5:15:� " <span id="en-PHILLIPS-1873" ="text="" rom-5-15"=""><sup ="versenum"="">15�But the gift of God through Christ is a very different matter from the �account rendered� through the sin of Adam. For while as a result of one man�s sin death by natural consequence became the common lot of men, it was by the generosity of God, the free giving of the grace of one man Jesus Christ, that the love of God overflowed for the benefit of all men.</span>"� The very doctrine of atonement is severely questionable! It is an inconsistency between the OT and the NT. Invented no doubt by later writers of the Bible as ordered by mortal men to write that which was invented to change the word of God. You know that the OT is absolutely clear on the issue. Saying that the son must not bear the inequity of the father. Therefore, the idea of the OS is clearly invented by rewriters of the Bible with the objective of raising the status of Jesus PBUH to that of more-than-a -man. Yeshua did not arrive too late to save the Jews; they had the Day of Atonement, which looked forward to the cross.� For the last two thousand years, Christians look back to the cross and Yeshua's sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection.Yeshua was never raised to the status of a god.� He was God clothed in humanity from His conception.� John 1:1-18 How could Jesus PBUH save nations that preceded him? Your notions are not consistent with the idea you are trying to convey. That he was a universal saviour. The earlier nations had not even heard of doctrines like the OS, Cross, Atonement and so on. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. This still does not make him God, does it? 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. Yet, Jesus PBUH said about John:Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God� 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband�s will, but born of God. We are children of God. But not in the sense of being sired by Him. He is our creator, as such we are His children. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Fiction, more likely! 15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, �This is the one I spoke about when I said, �He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.�) So, who is right, Jesus PBUH or John? 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Why couldn't grace have come through Moses or Muhammad PBUTB? 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." This is a self-contradictory statement. Because if no one has seen God how could Jesus PBUH be seen? |
Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 29 November 2014 at 2:47am
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Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 29 November 2014 at 3:24am
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The Bible is drivel. Loads of additional drivel has been tacked on to it by, mostly, the Catholic church. You can justify anything with it or oppose anything with it. As an ethical guide it fails utterly. |
Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 29 November 2014 at 8:45am
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Greetings Saint. The following points will attempt to answer your comments/ questions: 1. You left out verses precedent and/or antecedent to those you quoted, thus losing the context. 2. When you cherry-pick text from any book, you lose the depth and intent of what was written. You do that with the Bible, then you say it is inconsistent. It is the cherry-picker who is inconsistent. 3. I do not seek to win any argument for glory or otherwise, so in that we are in agreement. We are both sincere believers in our Christian and Muslim faith, and try our best to present our faith to each other. I already pointed out the Matthew, Mark, and Luke scriptures that were taken out of context re how children believe so easily, and the implicit exhortation for adults to have that kind of simple faith. It had nothing to do with sinlessness of children. 4. Some would say that original sin began with the serpent. Perhaps. On the surface it would appear that way. However, as I ponder that whole scenario, it appears to me that the free will God gave Adam and Eve was the fertile ground which the serpent used to till and plant seeds of rebellion and disobedience. The serpent's enticement to know good and evil and to be like God would not have been effective if man had not been given a free will to make choices. Nothing has changed today. 5. Saint, you are completely wrong on atonement being inconsistent between the OT and the NT. On the contrary, it is totally consistent from Genesis to Revelation! In the OT, there had to be animal sacrifice for the atonement of sins. The high priest performed that ritual every year. In the NT, Yeshua was the "Lamb Who takes away the sins of the world." He did not destroy the law, but fulfilled and finished it on Calvary. 6. In the OT, man's sins were covered by the blood of the animals that were sacrificed for them. In the NT, man's sins were taken away ("as far as the east is from the west") by the sacrifice on Calvary, so there is no inconsistency in the atonement of sins in the OT and NT. The way they were atoned for in the OT was an archetype for the atonement in the NT by Yeshua. 7. I don't think you understand John 1:15. John is the speaker, not Jesus: �This is the one I spoke about when I said, �He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.�) 8. As to why grace could not have come through Moses or Mohammad, you'd have to ask God. I do know that the Law came through Moses and Yeshua fulfilled the requirements of the Law as I stated earlier. 9. As to your comment about if no one has seen God how could Jesus be seen, that question is turned on its head in John 14:5-14: 5 Thomas said to him, �Lord, we don�t know where you are going, so how can we know the way? 6 "Jesus answered, �I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.� 8 Philip said, �Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.� 9 Jesus answered: �Don�t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, �Show us the Father�? 10 Don�t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." 10. Good comments Saint. I don't know if I were able to answer them to your satisfaction, but I gave it my best shot. ------------- kingskid |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 01 December 2014 at 3:46am
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Kinskid, You complain about your opponent citing quotes from your Bible, describing it as cherry picking, then do exactly that. Cherry picking is exactly how theology works. And yes it's all drivel. |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 December 2014 at 6:18am
Jesus PBUH used to say believe in the evidence of the works. He always emphasized on good works. "or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. All along Jesus PBUH was referring to his teachings which were as intended by God. Which is why, as opposed to your interpretation, he said in works he and his father were the same. Those words were intended metaphorically. Just as the following are: "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me receives Him who sent me;" (Luke 9:48). See simple! How about: "...and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me." John 8:28 "...I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak." John 12:49. and last but not least: Jesus said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; neither one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." (John 13:16). Are'nt the above verses so transparent and clear that Jesus never claimed divinity? |
Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 03 December 2014 at 12:20pm
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Tim the plumber wrote:
Kinskid, You complain about your opponent citing quotes from your Bible, describing it as cherry picking, then do exactly that. Cherry picking is exactly how theology works. And yes it's all drivel. -------------------- Tim, I quote scriptures pertinent to whatever the discussion is, not just pick scriptures out willy nilly. If it's all "drivel" to you, you must have some arcane reason for jumping in to the interfaith dialogue...just saying. ------------- kingskid |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 23 December 2014 at 12:03am
Kingskid, Still awaiting a response to above. Happy Christmas. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 23 December 2014 at 12:51am
I see around me a world where faith is the rout of a vast amount of distress and harm. This is from Northern Ireland where Christians have managed to continue the wars of religion that swept across Europe for 300 years or so for another 200+ years to the present trouble between Islamic religiously inspired rejectors of modernity and the rest of the world around them, mostly other Muslims. I also include the unnecessary repression of peoples freedom and creativity. I would like to do my bit to change the world for the better. This is my little bit of effort to do that. Oh, and I do enjoy a good argument.  |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 23 December 2014 at 12:54am
Well said, even as an atheist I agree with that. |
Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 23 December 2014 at 3:35pm
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Saint, you wrote:thanks. Kingskid, Still awaiting a response to above. Happy Christmas. ------------------------------------ Response to above? All I see are my comments. Sure you have not been imbibing the fruit of the palms and grapes, Saint? Sura 16:69  (If you had questions buried in all the comments back and forth, please restate them clearly so I can respond. Thanks!) ------------- kingskid |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 27 December 2014 at 5:38am
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Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 27 December 2014 at 5:45am
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I was talking about this one! Did you overlook this post, kingskid?
"Jesus PBUH used to say believe in the evidence of the works. He always emphasized on good works. "or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. All along Jesus PBUH was referring to his teachings which were as intended by God. Which is why, as opposed to your interpretation, he said in works he and his father were the same. Those words were intended metaphorically. Just as the following are: "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me receives Him who sent me;" (Luke 9:48). See simple! How about: "...and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me." John 8:28 "...I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak." John 12:49. and last but not least: Jesus said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; neither one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." (John 13:16). Aren't the above verses so transparent and clear that Jesus never claimed divinity?" 02 December 2014 at 6:18am By The Saint |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 December 2014 at 4:43pm
Greetings The Saint, I always think in this way... can the arm do anything without the brain? and yet they are part of the same body. asalaam alaykum, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 March 2015 at 4:30am
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Greetings The Saint,
I always think in this way... can the arm do anything without the brain? and yet they are part of the same body. asalaam alaykum, Caringheart Greetings CH I am asking you can the brain do anything without the arm? The two are not co-equal. Peace The Saint |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 March 2015 at 1:35pm
Greetings The Saint, Your statement would seem to demonstrate that they are co-equal. asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 03 March 2015 at 12:46am
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The brain can continue its function even if the arm is cut-off. But if the arm is cut-off it will become dead meat. That means they are not co-equal.
Peace The Saint |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 March 2015 at 1:09pm
Greetings The Saint, The brain might be able to continue its function.... it might be telling the arm to move the hand to pick up something... but without the arm the brains function becomes a non-function. So it seems that they are co-equal... both needed to complete the function. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 10 March 2015 at 3:38am
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Co-equal means equal in power and status. But the brain and arm are neither equal in power nor status.
Brain orders the functioning of the entire body, including the arm but the arm is incapable of any function without an order from the brain. The body can function without an arm or even both arms. But not without the brain. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 March 2015 at 1:21pm
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Greetings The Saint, Precisely the relationship I see between the Father and the Son... part of One 'body'... or entity... but yes, the Son does nothing without the Father who is in control. The Father works through the Son. Using your analogy... the brain works through the arm... and they are both part of one body. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 12 March 2015 at 8:37am
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But your argument makes them unequal, which is contrary to the doctrine of trinity.
Isn't it true that in the said holy trinity all three entities are equal to each other? Peace The Saint |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 March 2015 at 4:24pm
Greetings The Saint, The are referred to as, 'One in being' the concept of the Trinity only says that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are One... in being. In other words, part of One body... or One in entity. (not a concept we can wholly and fully understand, as this entity, this Creator, exists in a dimension we do not comprehend... we have only, to go on, the things which Yshwe spoke to His Disciples)They all function as parts of One. Even in the Biblical scriptures Yshwe did not claim equality, saying instead... 'I do nothing unless the Father wills it'... 'I do nothing of my own accord' but He also clearly states. 'I and My Father are One' asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 14 March 2015 at 3:51am
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The dogma of the Trinity
Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system. Found at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 March 2015 at 7:58pm
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Greetings The Saint, I shared with you the creed, as I know it. You are aware, of course, that scripture is a matter of interpretaion, This is why I said; (not a concept we can wholly and fully understand, as this entity, this Creator, exists in a dimension we do not comprehend... we have only, to go on, the things which Yshwe spoke to His Disciples)The 'Creed', the 'doctrine', is written by man trying to explain a thing unexplainable to the human mind, as taken from his own understanding (or interpretation) of the words of Yshwe. and on this Muhammad was correct, regarding some matters there was a certain amount of disagreement (in the things not easily understood or explained about Yshwe and His Word), but on the essentials... agreement. Yshwe was conceived supernaturally and born of Mary, taken as wife of Joseph... Yshwe taught of good things... Yshwe was crucified by His own people... Yshwe was raised from the dead, bringing a good message to all people... Yshwe is the Divine Son of God, One promised in the earlier scriptures... the One who reveals the meaning in the earlier scriptures. Yshwe had the power of God... (to do miracles) those who follow Yshwe receive the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome sinfulness... So that it does not matter so much how we perceive, or understand, the unity, so much as we agree and accept that Yshwe taught of that unity. Explaining that unity will always be out of reach, and out of understanding, until the day we meet our Maker. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 16 March 2015 at 3:50am
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I shared with you the creed, as I know it.
You are aware, of course, that scripture is a matter of interpretaion, This is why I said; (not a concept we can wholly and fully understand, as this entity, this Creator, exists in a dimension we do not comprehend... we have only, to go on, the things which Yshwe spoke to His Disciples) The 'Creed', the 'doctrine', is written by man trying to explain a thing unexplainable to the human mind, as taken from his own understanding (or interpretation) of the words of Yshwe. I understand there can be different interpretations of the scripture. But I still cannot believe that God Almighty would have us believe in a doctrine that He, Himself provides no explanation yet expects us accept it as is? I know that it is not His way. and on this Muhammad was correct, regarding some matters there was a certain amount of disagreement (in the things not easily understood or explained about Yshwe and His Word), but on the essentials... agreement. Can you kindly explain the above? Yshwe was conceived supernaturally and born of Mary, taken as wife of Joseph... Joseph had no role according to Islam. The rest is correct. Yshwe taught of good things... Of course, he did. Yshwe was crucified by His own people... No, he was saved from Crucifixion by God Almighty. And I already said why he could not have been crucified. Yshwe was raised from the dead, bringing a good message to all people... He never died. He is still alive. He will come down again and then he shall die. Yshwe is the Divine Son of God, One promised in the earlier scriptures... the One who reveals the meaning in the earlier scriptures. The OT does not talk about a son of god. If you know of a reference to this effect, please quote it here. Yshwe had the power of God... (to do miracles) those who follow Yshwe receive the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome sinfulness... Whatever power Jesus PBUH had was bestowed on him by God Almighty. So that it does not matter so much how we perceive, or understand, the unity, so much as we agree and accept that Yshwe taught of that unity. Explaining that unity will always be out of reach, and out of understanding, until the day we meet our Maker. Jesus PBUH never used the word trinity. The bible does not have the word. And the only place it is said to be referred is known now as a forgery. Peace The Saint |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 March 2015 at 2:46pm
Greetings The Saint, Yshwe provides explanation, the difficulty is in man's ability to comprehend. He often told His Disciples that there were things they would not yet understand. It may not be possible to explain to a 3-dimensional being things of a multi-dimensional nature.
(There is a surah of the qur'an that speaks of the 'people of the Book' disputing about their scriptures... I'm having trouble finding that surah at the moment, but) Muhammad was correct that; People seemed to have had a hard time understanding and agreeing on the concept of what Yshwe taught regarding His nature, and His nature as it related to the Father and the Holy Spirit. On this there were differing interpretations, opinions, and ideas, and possibly no real, clear understanding. So, to be sure, there would have been much discussion and debate going on among the church members and leaders. As I say... how do you explain to a 3-dimensional being and thinker... a multi-dimensional concept?
Does islam not accept that Mary was the wife of Joseph?
Greetings The Saint, Whether you believe Yshwe died on the cross or not, He was 'crucified' by His own people... brought up on charges, and sentenced to death on a cross.
and this makes more sense, in what way? Why defy, or deny, what many witnesses testified to? The Romans witnessed and recorded His death, the rending of the heavens, taking Him down from the cross, and saw Him buried. When you deny His death and resurrection, that His Disciples saw Him walk again on earth, and saw Him ascend into heaven, you deny His whole message, His reason for coming.... the message that we can all have eternal life. Yes, Yshwe lives... Yes, He will come again... but He has life eternal. I wonder if, when He comes again, He will come in flesh.
'Go and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.' (the Word of Yshwe from His own mouth, recorded in the book of Matthew) 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: It doesn't really matter that He didn't use a particular word... the word Trinity. It is quite clear from His Word that there is a Trinity... a unity of 3... and this is quite clear from the beginning when the Creator said... 'let Us create man in Our image' and by the fact that all through the qu'ran, allah refers to himself as we.
This will take a bit more time to compose a proper reply to. Essentially a study of the prophesy given in the book of Isaiah. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 17 March 2015 at 4:57am
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Greetings The Saint,
Yshwe provides explanation, the difficulty is in man's ability to comprehend. He often told His Disciples that there were things they would not yet understand. It may not be possible to explain to a 3-dimensional being things of a multi-dimensional nature. I know of at least one instance recorded in the Bible that quotes him as saying, John 16:12 King James Version (KJV) 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. So, Jesus PBUH, indeed, did say that. But notice he said he will lead you into all truth. What do you think he meant here when he said, all truth? Does it appear that he was referring to an explanation of a peculiar doctrine or were his words a reference to a broader understanding of religion per se? (There is a surah of the qur'an that speaks of the 'people of the Book' disputing about their scriptures... I'm having trouble finding that surah at the moment, but) Muhammad was correct that; People seemed to have had a hard time understanding and agreeing on the concept of what Yshwe taught regarding His nature, and His nature as it related to the Father and the Holy Spirit. On this there were differing interpretations, opinions, and ideas, and possibly no real, clear understanding. So, to be sure, there would have been much discussion and debate going on among the church members and leaders. That is a problem, I believe God is eminently capable of explaining to His subjects. But there never was such a concept except among the pagans. So, there never was an explanation. Who was better qualified to explain the idea of the trinity than one part of the said trinity, himself. As I say... how do you explain to a 3-dimensional being and thinker... a multi-dimensional concept? No, Muhammad was not referring to the difficulty of the people of the book in understanding the scripture. It was actually the Quran saying, saying something quite different_ If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. Does islam not accept that Mary was the wife of Joseph? No. I have already told you earlier that Jesus PBUH could not have been crucified for any number of reasons. A crucified Messiah is an impossibility - the one hanged on the tree to die is a traitor or a blasphemer. Hanging on the cross he is accursed by God and men. Such was the priestly doctrine in the days of Jesus, as we have learned from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other early Jewish sources. In Deuteronomy 21:22-23 we find the following law: If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and you hang him on a tree, you must not leave the body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is a curse of God. You must not defile the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. More soon. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 March 2015 at 6:15pm
Greetings The Saint, I believe this is how Muhammad might have seen the subject... seeing those who bowed and prayed in open prostration and frequently, as those who were pious... but he obviously missed the message of Yshwe who taught... 'do not do as the Pharisees do.... making a great show... but when ye pray do it privately, and when you give alms, do it with no great show or desire of reward or recognition...' Yshwe taught that it was not in the ritual that one earned favor with God, but in the condition of the heart. He taught not to seek favor among men, but only with God.
So in islam, is it believed that Mary was never married... was there no one to support her and to help her raise her son? Or is that page just left blank in islam? It is hardly likely that any woman in those times, could have raised a child without the support of a marriage... of a husband. She would have been stoned before the child could have been born.
Ok. asalaam and blessings, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 March 2015 at 6:31pm
Greetings The Saint, Have I ever shared the following with you... it's a short 7 minutes of your time, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUy-H5MmeGU - Explaining God with reason It should help you to understand what I am saying. asalaam and blessings to you, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 19 March 2015 at 3:39am
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Hello CH
Continuing from where I left-off_ and this makes more sense, in what way? Why defy, or deny, what many witnesses testified to? The Romans witnessed and recorded His death, the rending of the heavens, taking Him down from the cross, and saw Him buried. Tell me, do you trust every word you see in the Bible? Btw,which Bible do you read? You know, I hope that there are many versions of the Bible. Ad they differ from each other? So, let us decide first, what you trust? Which version, that is? As regards, how does his second coming make sense...............I thought all Christians believe in his second coming? Don't you? Well, from the Islamic perspective, he must come because he must die. Since the Quran states that every soul born must die. Secondly, he must come because his is only people who started worshipping him. No, other people of the Abrahamic faiths have ever done it as except the Trinitarian Christians. When you deny His death and resurrection, that His Disciples saw Him walk again on earth, and saw Him ascend into heaven, you deny His whole message, His reason for coming.... the message that we can all have eternal life. None of the disciples witnessed his so called crucifixion! That is what I am saying. The Gospels record that the 12 apostles �forsook him and fled� at Gethsemane (Matt. 26:56), they disappeared from the Gospel story and did not witness the crucifixion. None of the disciples believed that Jesus rose from the dead (Mark 16:14, Luke 24:11). This means the early Christians did not believe Jesus had to die for their sins (Ps. 20:6, Matt. 16:22). IF the disciples knew that Jesus had to rise, why didn�t they return to Jerusalem to see the resurrection? Yet the Gospels are clear that nobody witnessed the resurrection of Jesus. The concept of dying-rising Messiah was unknown to Judaism: Jesus could not have foreseen his rejection, death, and resurrection, as the idea of a suffering, dying, and rising Messiah or son of Man was unknown to Judaism. (Israel Knohl, The Messiah before Jesus, The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls, p. 2) Furthermore, the crucifixion did not even take place in Jerusalem! According to the book of Revelations, Jesus was crucified in Rome: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Revelations 11:8, KJV) Jesus made it clear that crucifixion was not his purpose (Matt. 9:13, 12:7, Mark 1:38, Luke 4:43, 19:10) The apostles did not believe Jesus rose from the dead (Matt. 28:17, Mark 16:14, Luke 24:11). The apostles did not expect Jesus to rise from the dead (Matt. 16:22, Mark 9:30-32) Jesus never foretold his crucifixion (Psalms 20:6, 18:50, Matt. 26:39) Jesus did not want to die, he was unwilling (Mark 14:26, Luke 22:42-43) God promised to save the Messiah (1 Chron.16:22, 2Chron. 6:42, Psalms 28:8) Christians believe the exact opposite of the Bible (Proverbs 21:18) The Bible rejects human sacrifice (Deu. 12:31, 2 Kings 17:17) Yes, Yshwe lives... Yes, He will come again... but He has life eternal. I wonder if, when He comes again, He will come in flesh. Of course, he will come in the flesh because he must die. Go and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.' (the Word of Yshwe from His own mouth, recorded in the book of Matthew) 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: It doesn't really matter that He didn't use a particular word... the word Trinity. It is quite clear from His Word that there is a Trinity... a unity of 3... In my humble opinion it does matter a great deal that he never used the word, trinity. Read verse in the following that quote Jesus PBUH talking of of one God.1 Timothy 2:5English Standard Version (ESV) 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a> Christ Jesus, John 20:17 ESV Jesus said to her, �Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, �I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.�� John 14:28 ESV You heard me say to you, �I am going away, and I will come to you.� If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Acts 4:27 ESV for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, All the above prove that even Christians believe God is one. and this is quite clear from the beginning when the Creator said... 'let Us create man in Our image' Answer: Matthew 28:19 states: "Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Although the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are grouped together, this verse does not prove the existence of a triune deity. The verse merely indicates the author's belief that they are to be mentioned together during baptism. Each is thought to have a function in the initiation of the believer during the baptism ritual. Yet no doctrine of coequality among them is promulgated in this verse. In the early period baptism was simply in "Christ" (Galatians 3:27) or in the name of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:13, Acts 8:16, 19:5). The text in Matthew represents a later stage of development, but is still not trinitarian in meaning. The doctrine of the trinity is a still later development. and by the fact that all through the qu'ran, allah refers to himself as we. Not all through the Quran does Allah SWT refer to Himself as we or us. He also refers to Himself as I also. And the pronoun We is a royal one. Just as kings say we. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 March 2015 at 4:27pm
Greetings The Saint, I present for further study; http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/MessiahBefore.htm - Israel Knohl, The Messiah before Jesus, The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls consideration; Messiah.... suffering servant.... meaning simply, martyr ? one who suffers for God? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 March 2015 at 4:54pm
Regarding this.... I had to consult my stack of Bibles... The original writing is this; 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 'Which 'spiritually'(or figuratively) is called Sodom and Egypt' from pneumatikos - non-physically, spiritually, figuratively If you look to the beginning of the chapter, you will see that 'the great city' is Jerusalem (where the temple always is). It is comparing the condition of the city of Jerusalem at the time of Christ's return, with the condition of Sodom and Egypt. (Why Egypt? I don't know) ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 March 2015 at 6:12pm
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Greetings The Saint, You ask all very good questions. Why did the disciples not return to see the crucifixion... (at least one did, and so did Mary, mother of Yshwe)... but back to the good questions you raise... I see your difficulty. The disciples did not understand, ahead of time, that Yshwe must die... that He would die and be raised again... Yshwe even told them in talking to them, that they could not understand what it was that He was telling to them, but that they would understand later. (read the book of John, Chapters 7 and 8... many could not understand what Yshwe was telling them) ... and so, when they knew of the death of Yshwe on the cross, they learned of it after the fact from the talk of others... from the reports of the Roman citizens, and the Jews that had called for His death (and of course from the witness of Mary, Mother of Yshwe, and the Apostle that was with her).... and so, for some, things began to come clear. But I can see why this would have caused much discussion and debate at His reappearance, and why some might have chosen to believe that He had somehow not been put on the cross... that He had somehow managed escape. The Truth being that yes, He did escape death... but not in the way some may have chosen to think... He escaped death because His Father, the Creator, raised Him from death, just as Yshwe had raised Lazarus from death... this was all so that the people could understand. We all can be raised from death by giving ourselves to the Creator. It is the power of God to do it. (all according to what Yshwe had been telling them throughout His ministry... 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.') Read the story of Thomas, known today as 'doubting Thomas' (book of John, chapter 20). It was Thomas who did not believe at first, but confirmed the resurrection by placing his hand in the wound in Yshwe's side, and in the wounds of His hands. Regarding Matthew 12... 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth He knew that they did not yet understand. and being 'sent to preach', in no way precludes the fact that He would also give His life. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 March 2015 at 6:24pm
Regarding Matthew 16:22, do not neglect to read the full text. 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. Yshwe was telling His disciples that giving the earthly life for God would obtain eternal life. He was telling them that He would be giving His earthly life to save souls. Both the testimonies written in Matthew and Mark tell that Yshwe said He would rise again on the third day. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 March 2015 at 6:34pm
If He didn't 'foretell His crucifixion', why was He praying to 'let this cup pass from Me' ... 'never the less, not My will Father, but Yours be done' and in the book of Mark, chapter 14.... 25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. 26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. 27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. 28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee. Yshwe was referring to Himself as the shepherd, as He had often done, and His disciples the sheep that would be scattered on His account. and He spoke of rising after having been 'smitten', i.e., killed. I don't know that I need to continue. You should study these scriptures more thoroughly for yourself. I agree that Yshwe was a contradiction to Proverbs 21:18... but then, all of Yshwe's life was counter-intuitive to what had earlier been taught and believed. That was rather the whole point.... and also the reason He was crucified by His people. asalaam and blessings, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 March 2015 at 6:54pm
Greetings The Saint, Do not neglect the rest of this verse.... (which is a letter of Paul, written to Timothy who was heading up the church at Ephesus... just thought you should know that these are not given as quoted words of Yshwe) 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 March 2015 at 7:03pm
and last, but not least...
We do believe God is One... One in the sense of plurality... multifaceted.... a concept only partly comprehensible to the human mind. Elohim is the word used for the Creator in Genesis(in the Torah)... Elohim which implies plurality in unity. I have done much study on this and shared it other places on this forum. (Search the word Elohim) http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32538&KW=elohim&PID=193680#193680 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32538&KW=elohim&PID=193680#193680 http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31680&KW=elohim&PID=190696#190696 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31680&KW=elohim&PID=190696#190696 The concept of trinity is found all throughout Torah. asalaam and blessings, CH I have been hoping to receive a reply to my question about Mary, according to islam, not having a husband? Shukran and salaam. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 31 March 2015 at 3:57am
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(Why Egypt? I don't know)
Yes, why Egypt? Why? Please find out. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 31 March 2015 at 4:13am
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Greetings The Saint,
You ask all very good questions. Smile Hello CH I try to do my bit to do the right thing and to keep our discussions lively and meaningful. Why did the disciples not return to see the crucifixion... (at least one did, and so did Mary, mother of Yshwe)... Please cite your evidence. The disciples did not understand, ahead of time, that Yshwe must die... that He would die and be raised again... That is pure conjecture! Why would Jesus PBUH keep his disciples in the dark? It was a huge and violent tragedy about to strike him. He had every reason, therefore, to warn his disciples. Yshwe even told them in talking to them, that they could not understand what it was that He was telling to them, but that they would understand later. (read the book of John, Chapters 7 and 8... many could not understand what Yshwe was telling them) No, that was a reference to how the complete faith will come to them. He was predicting the coming of the spirit of truth. It could not have been anything else. Because he was talking to his disciples in their native language so there could not have been any difficulty in understanding him. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 March 2015 at 2:48pm
Greetings The Saint, Looking at this again today, I would suppose Egypt, because Egypt was given to worshiping other gods... their spiritual condition was not good. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 March 2015 at 3:32pm
Greetings The Saint, Will you accept evidence that was written down in the testimony of the Apostles? as recorded in the book of John, chapter 19: 23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
He would keep them in the dark for the very reasons revealed by Peter's reaction when the soldiers came to get Him (Peter lunged at the soldier, cutting off his ear)(recorded books of John 18, Mark 14, and Matthew 26)... and Yshwe told him to put away his sword:
Had the Apostles understood all that was to happen they would have tried to interfere, and prevent, what was God's will, and what must happen. It was not time for them to know... as Yshwe often told them, 'it is not the time for you to understand all things, but in time you will understand' Yshwe often spoke in parables... or in riddles, if you will. He often had to explain His teachings to His Disciples.
You will note that Yshwe said that He would send the Spirit of Truth to His Disciples... to those who were His followers. Note the following: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.You see, He was saying that the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, would live IN them... that HE would live in them. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Comforter, the Holy Spirit, would come in the name of Yshwe, reminding of all the things which He had spoken to them. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.asalaam and blessings, Caringheart yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. (for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.) 4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 01 April 2015 at 6:29am
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In the first place let me remind you was it three days before he rose? Fridays night, Saturday - day and night and Monday he had already arisen. So, do you add-up three days? It is only one day and two nights.
But certainly not, as Jonah was, three days and three nights! So, Jesus's PBUH prediction went terribly wrong. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 01 April 2015 at 7:07am
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Rome was pagan, too! ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 3:44am
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Greetings The Saint, If I am remembering correctly from previous study... the Passover meal, in that year, would have taken place on a Wednesday(this is the day the Romans seized Him)... Yshwe was subsequently put on the cross, and ceased life at 3:00 on Thursday... and it was required that the body be prepared so that He would be entombed before the Sabbath... i.e., sundown on Friday.... and Sabbath lasts from sundown on Friday until Sundown on Saturday. By my estimation that is Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evenings that Yshwe was perished from the earth... Thursday 3:00, till Sunday, whenever they showed up to the tomb and found Him gone? So if it wasn't discovered that the tomb was empty until sometime towards dusk? You would be correct if you wish to say that I am grasping here... perhaps the empty tomb wasn't discovered until Monday... and it is true, it is just possible that the early church chose to commemorate the risen Christ on Sunday to suit the pagans... although I have a hard time seeing how, why, or when, that might have occurred... we'll never know precisely how the church came to do things the way that they did... I can't imagine the early followers of Yshwe doing anything other than keeping in remembrance, things the way that they actually were though... So yes, that would leave the question... was He 3 days and 3 nights ceased from the earth? It depends on when they went to the tomb and found it empty and how the story was told, and retold. It may have been tweaked along the way. just as we'll never know precisely the whole story about the Ka'aba... traditions and practices grow up over time, and we do not always know all the paths that were taken to arrive at where we are today. There is nothing, however, that will ever change my mind that Yshwe is the way, the Truth, and the life.... Yshwe's way... the things He taught... belief in Him... is THE Way. His way is peace. His way is Love. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. 39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. 40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem. 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: 786iec
Date Posted: 06 April 2015 at 9:31am
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You made sure you did not give any reference from the Bible all you did was spew non truth why don't you quote the Bible and let us take it from there when did he supposedly dia and when was he supposedly resurrected.You deliberately left the Bible out of your reply why??? [IMG]smileys/smiley32.gif" align="middle" />
http://www.ipci.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Crucifixion-or-Crucifiction.pdf Please read and educate yourself. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 April 2015 at 7:20pm
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Greetings 786iec, Yes, I have already studied Mr. Deedat's book. Gracias, Danke, Shukran, und salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: 786iec
Date Posted: 07 April 2015 at 1:48pm
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Hi
You have read the book and you still going on about the three days and three nights. New International Version This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.Matthew 13:13 |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 10 April 2015 at 7:09am
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reetings The Saint,
If I am remembering correctly from previous study... the Passover meal, in that year, would have taken place on a Wednesday(this is the day the Romans seized Him)... Yshwe was subsequently put on the cross, and ceased life at 3:00 on Thursday... and it was required that the body be prepared so that He would be entombed before the Sabbath... i.e., sundown on Friday.... and Sabbath lasts from sundown on Friday until Sundown on Saturday. By my estimation that is Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evenings that Yshwe was perished from the earth... Thursday 3:00, till Sunday, whenever they showed up to the tomb and found Him gone? So if it wasn't discovered that the tomb was empty until sometime towards dusk? You would be correct if you wish to say that I am grasping here... perhaps the empty tomb wasn't discovered until Monday... and it is true, it is just possible that the early church chose to commemorate the risen Christ on Sunday to suit the pagans... although I have a hard time seeing how, why, or when, that might have occurred... All records and all scholars unanimously agree that Jesus PBUH was supposedly crucified on Friday. That is why you have a Good Friday and not a good Thursday. Yes, you are obviously trying very hard to fit scripture into history. Mary Magdaleine went to the tomb on Sunday morning. So there is no way you can get three days and three nights. What do you not know about the Kaaba? There is nothing, however, that will ever change my mind that Yshwe is the way, the Truth, and the life.... Yshwe's way... the things He taught... belief in Him... is THE Way. His way is peace. His way is Love. Like all messengers of God he preached the truth. But he prescribed no new rules. He came only to fulfill the Mosaic law. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 April 2015 at 10:02pm
Greetings The Saint. Disagree. I was surprised when, during my explorations(my studying and researching the Christian faith), I found otherwise.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24586&KW=kaaba&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24586&KW=ka%27%27aba&PN=1 Imoti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba#cite_note-24 - contends that there were numerous such "Kaaba" sanctuaries in Arabia at one time, but this was the only one built of stone. The others also allegedly had counterparts of the Black Stone. There was a "red stone", the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and the "white stone" in the Kaaba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca). Grunebaum in Classical Islam points out that the experience of divinity of that period was often associated with stone fetishes, mountains, special rock formations, or "trees of strange growth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba#cite_note-25 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba#cite_note-25 - "The Ka'aba of Mecca was one of several Ka'abas across Arabia each one dedicated to a different god and each having its own coloured stone , the one in Mecca was dedicated to the god Hubal a phoentical distortion of the Canaanite god Ba'al(it started out as Haba'al meaning "The lord" which later on gave birth to Allah which have a similar meaning). Now on the subject of who built it, it's note worthy to point out to the Islamic 3 "Satan's stelles" that Muslims gather around each year to throw stones at in a symbolic way of stoning the Devil .The Bedouins (who raised Mohammed) had Djins - square stone boxes where they believed spirits rested. The Kaaba can be seen loosely as fitting in with this tradition, although the Kaaba could be walked into. There are still some Djins in Petra. If you google 'Djin', you'll see some images. The Kaaba was a place where different, often warring Bedouin tribes would come and, in respite from war, honour their gods. This helped foster trade, and Mecca developed as a commercial as well as spiritual hub." --------------------------------- It seems that the ka'aba was a part of the general culture, other gods, and stones, and there were many of them, long before Muhammad turned the one in Mecca to the purpose of his religion, claiming the religion of Abraham and the one God. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: 786iec
Date Posted: 15 April 2015 at 12:45pm
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Greetings Caringheart,
I am quite surprised that in your theses and doctoral study of the Kaaba you have not looked at your Bible? If you read Ezekiel 40 to 47 you will be pleasantly surprised to find that the only square church in the world is the Kaaba,and the prophet Ezekiel gives the proper measurement with the archers and the well of Zamzam.You will have to go back to Sunday school and study your Bible. iec |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 April 2015 at 10:28pm
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"The tabernacle and Temple in Israel were rectangular"
------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: 786iec
Date Posted: 18 April 2015 at 10:59pm
square is the Kaaba and that is what Ezekiel was talking about.The archers are still there and the well of zamzam is still there.No mistaking the Kaaba the measurements are the same. Do you still have the tabernacle and Temple in rectangular? |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 April 2015 at 10:42am
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Greetings 786iec, I don't know how you reach your conclusion. I've read Ezekiel... the designs for the temple are very extensive... they are no ka'aba(a simple cube). asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 April 2015 at 5:58pm
You might want to check your facts. (Or maybe Ezekiel should. )http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba - Wikipedia says that the Kaaba is approx. 11 by 13 meters (rectangular, not square). According to http://www.templemount.org/ezektmp.html - this source , Ezekiel's temple is about 875 feet (more than 250 metres) square. It is described in great detail, and is nothing at all like the Kaaba. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 24 April 2015 at 12:29pm
| The inside room of the Kabaa is 13X9 meters.close enough for me. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 24 April 2015 at 12:32pm
| The inside room of the Kaba is 13X9 meters.if you say rectangular i am not going to argue with you but there is n other cube temple which is the Holiest place on Earth.According to Ezekiel. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 25 April 2015 at 1:33pm
Iec786:
Since the Ka'aba is (for Muslims) the holiest place on earth it must be identical with the holiest place(es) mentioned in other holy scriptures ?? Airmano ? |
Posted By: 786iec
Date Posted: 28 April 2015 at 10:35pm
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Quote=Username]Do I understand your argument correctly?:
Since the Ka'aba is (for Muslims) the holiest place on earth it must be identical with the holiest place(es) mentioned in other holy scriptures ?? Airmano ? [/QUOTE] The Kabaa was built by the Prophet Abraham and it was Holy to all Abrahamic faiths.Not Muslims only but the rest just later evolved into monkeys so it became less important to he others. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 April 2015 at 12:04am
Wow, I'm sorry, I just have to say... I find it so hard to imagine that there are people still so uneducated in the world today. asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 29 April 2015 at 5:25am
786
Airmano |
Posted By: 786iec
Date Posted: 30 April 2015 at 10:32am
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Any evidence (besides the Quran/Hadiths ) for these claims ?
To prove what? the Kaaba stands in front of you what proof are you looking for ???you blind or what? |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 30 April 2015 at 10:54pm
786
Jokes aside: Are there any historical writings, paintings, coins, DNA tests, excavation sites, similarities in building style... supporting that: a) The Kaaba was build by Abraham ? b) That there has ever been a moment where the Kaaba was holy to the Jews and/or the Christians ? c) That human beings ever evolved into monkeys ? Good luck: Airmano |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 01 May 2015 at 4:54am
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Greetings The Saint.
Disagree. I was surprised when, during my explorations(my studying and researching the Christian faith), I found otherwise. Did you find Jesus PBUH was not crucified at all? Or, are you saying that the day was different? "The Ka'aba of Mecca was one of several Ka'abas across Arabia each one dedicated to a different god and each having its own coloured stone , the one in Mecca was dedicated to the god Hubal a phoentical distortion of the Canaanite god Ba'al(it started out as Haba'al meaning "The lord" which later on gave birth to Allah which have a similar meaning). Now on the subject of who built it, it's note worthy to point out to the Islamic 3 "Satan's stelles" that Muslims gather around each year to throw stones at in a symbolic way of stoning the Devil . After Ibrahim AS and Ismail AS constructed the Kaaba vy Allah's command and until Muhammad PBUH cleansed it of 360 plus gods different kinds of people lived in and around Mecca. The Bedouins (who raised Mohammed) had Djins - square stone boxes where they believed spirits rested. The Kaaba can be seen loosely as fitting in with this tradition, although the Kaaba could be walked into. There are still some Djins in Petra. If you google 'Djin', you'll see some images. The Kaaba was a place where different, often warring Bedouin tribes would come and, in respite from war, honour their gods. This helped foster trade, and Mecca developed as a commercial as well as spiritual hub." Muhammad PBUH was raised by noblemen to whose tribe he belonged. And despite the Kaaba being polluted by pagan idols he never ever turned towards them. He continued in search of the true eternal God. He never practiced magic or indulged in contacts with Jinns? Btw, do you believe in Jinns? It is possible that hubal or baal's idols may have been placed in the kaaba by the pagans. But the Prophet PBUH broke all idols establishing the supremacy of the One God again and re-consecrated it to Him. Ever since it has remained so. It seems that the ka'aba was a part of the general culture, other gods, and stones, and there were many of them, long before Muhammad turned the one in Mecca to the purpose of his religion, claiming the religion of Abraham and the one God. Maybe. Who cares. It is only important that Ibrahim, Musa, Eesa and Muhammad PBUT all worshipped the same eternal God, Allah. And today the most important religious shrine, The Qibla is represented by the Kaaba. And almost two billion Muslims face it while praying. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 01 May 2015 at 5:05am
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http://muslimmatters.org/2012/11/15/ten-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-kaaba/ ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 01 May 2015 at 5:12am
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"The tabernacle and Temple in Israel were rectangular"
So was this Kaaba. I just posted a link for Airmano. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 May 2015 at 12:30pm
Greetings The Saint, There are differences of opinion on the day on which Yshwe was crucified. I read one study that explained the different Sabbath and Passover dates for the year Yshwe was crucified... and we know that he sat down with His Disciples for a last supper. Apparently in the year that He was crucified it was not an ordinary year for the day on which the Passover fell... something like that. (I wish I had either taken notes, or had the time to search it out again.) asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 May 2015 at 7:27am
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What would you say if I were to tell that his birth took place around Summer in The Mid east.
Also that he was never crucified. Because those crucified were supposed to be cursed. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 02 May 2015 at 8:25am
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Any evidence (besides the Quran/Hadiths ) for these claims ?
Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book: ..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.[1> ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 02 May 2015 at 10:16am
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There is no comment about Abraham nor about the Kaaba ever being venerated by Jews/Christians nor about people turning into monkeys (these were the points I asked the evidence for).
So, your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my request. Beyond that: could you be more specific in your references? In order to check the relevance of a claim it is not enough to say that somebody said something. What was the title of the book? On which page did he write this ? What was the context? What was his expertise in the field of Islam and the history of the Orient ? In any case when I google Edward Gibbon I get in its Wikipedia entry:
Is this what you wanted to express ? I strongly doubt that his judgement about Islam would have/has been any better. Airmano |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 May 2015 at 11:35am
Greetings The Saint, I agree with you that the date which Christians celebrate for the birth of Yshwe can be disputed. I'm not sure that it matters. I disagree that He was never crucified. I imagine to be crucified would be to be cursed, had it not been the will of God, and by the submission of Yshwe. Isn't God, the Creator, the One in charge of curses and blessings, and isn't it in His power to decide? asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 May 2015 at 11:38am
You know, I never considered the cloth that covers the Ka'aba as a veil before... a misunderstanding of the 'veil of the temple'? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 03 May 2015 at 11:05am
Exactly. We all know that the Kaaba existed before Muhammad; and I don't see how showing that it was previously a pagan/polytheist shrine lends credibility to the myth that Abraham had anything to do with it. If anything, that would make it less likely.
I can help you with that. It's from The History of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/735/735-h/735-h.htm - Volume V, Chapter L, Part II (yeah, it's a HUGE book! -- search for the second occurence of the word "mythology" to find it). It's interesting that the peculiar truncated half-sentence at the beginning of The Saint's quote actually begins as follows: "I am ignorant, and I am careless, of the blind mythology of the Barbarians". So Gibbon is not even claiming any particular expertise here. No wonder The Saint didn't want to include that phrase. P.S.: By the way, if you read Footnote 45 to this passage, it seems doubtful that Gibbon was even correct in identifying this pre-Christian temple as the Kaaba: Note: Mr. Forster (Geography of Arabia, vol. ii. p. 118, et seq.) has raised an objection, as I think, fatal to this hypothesis of Gibbon. The temple, situated in the country of the Banizomeneis, was not between the Thamudites and the Sabaeans, but higher up than the coast inhabited by the former. Mr. Forster would place it as far north as Moiiah. I am not quite satisfied that this will agree with the whole description of Diodorus�M. 1845 ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 03 May 2015 at 1:51pm
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@Ron: Thanks !
It seems were going throu' another series of "wall of smoke attempts". When I read it first I could not understand the chopped sentence "..... of blind mythology of barbarians". I very much agree that this part was almost certainly suppressed for the reasons you mentioned. Religion of truth ? Interestingly only some lines further down you find in the same book:
Hard stuff isn't it ? What did I say again in my last post?: "I strongly doubt that his [Edward Gibbons] judgement about Islam would have/has been any better." Cheers: Airmano Ps: @The Saint: Any news from the Jinn, Angel and Noodle-Monster front ? |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 2:30am
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There is no comment about Abraham nor about the Kaaba ever being venerated by Jews/Christians nor about people turning into monkeys (these were the points I asked the evidence for).
Gibbon here is informing you of the antiquity of the Kaaba about which you were in denial. He has established that it existed even in pre-christian times. Thus raising the possibility that Abraham and His son Ismail could have built it. So, your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my request. Beyond that: could you be more specific in your references? In order to check the relevance of a claim it is not enough to say that somebody said something. What was the title of the book? On which page did he write this ? What was the context? What was his expertise in the field of Islam and the history of the Orient ? I think that should answer quite a few of your questions.Read the book, I suggest. Edward Gibbon (Introduction by Christopher Dawson), Gibbon's Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, Volume V, Everyman's Library, London, pp. 223-224. Is this what you wanted to express ? I strongly doubt that his judgement about Islam would have/has been any better. That is mere conjecture and very weak at that. Because we also happen to know what he said about the Prophet of Islam. "The greatest success of Mohammad's life was effected by sheer moral force without the stroke of a sword." [History Of The Saracen Empire, London, 1870>. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 3:04am
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Greetings The Saint,
Hello CH I agree with you that the date which Christians celebrate for the birth of Yshwe can be disputed. I'm not sure that it matters. Actually, in my opinion, no birthday or death day matters. I disagree that He was never crucified. I imagine to be crucified would be to be cursed, had it not been the will of God, and by the submission of Yshwe. Isn't God, the Creator, the One in charge of curses and blessings, and isn't it in His power to decide? Really, it was not the will of God that a dear Prophet should be treated like a criminal. The Quran is quite clear on the matter. He was replaced by a similar looking person. Then there is evidence in the NT that only the accursed were crucified. �If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.� (Deuteronomy 21:22-23 New King James Version) asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 3:19am
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Exactly. We all know that the Kaaba existed before Muhammad; and I don't see how showing that it was previously a pagan/polytheist shrine lends credibility to the myth that Abraham had anything to do with it. If anything, that would make it less likely.
If pagans start using a shrine, their rituals do not change the original purpose of the structure. Does it? And I thought Airmano was not even ready to accept the Kaaba existed before Muhammad PBUH. Today the Kaaba is rid of all its idols. The building was cleansed and reverted to the use it was originally intended for. The Worship of the one, true God. It's interesting that the peculiar truncated half-sentence at the beginning of The Saint's quote actually begins as follows: "I am ignorant, and I am careless, of the blind mythology of the Barbarians". So Gibbon is not even claiming any particular expertise here. No wonder The Saint didn't want to include that phrase. Wink. You are rushing to believe your fantasies. I copied the quote from http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html and it is exactly as I quoted. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 7:49am
If the earliest known use of a shrine was by the pagans, then why would anyone assume that its original purpose was something else?
How odd that your "one true God" would have allowed idols in His house to begin with! Isn't He supposed to be omnipotent?
Yes, I'm aware of that; but if you quoted it, then you are responsible for it. There is no excuse for not checking the original source. The Internet makes it so easy. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 05 May 2015 at 4:44am
The Saint:
------------------------------------------------------- Than
You told me to read the book, did you ? - or was is just the usual copy and paste from your islamic webpages (that also copy and paste from each other without checking) ? ------------------------------------------------------ Than:
How does this fit to Allah being "just"? An innocent person being crucified just because he looked like Jesus ? Do you really think the Romans and the Jewish high priest were such fools ? Frankly, this is laughable. -------------------------------------------------------- To finish: I still wait for your answers on my questions: Are there any historical writings, paintings, coins, DNA tests, excavation sites, similarities in building style... supporting that: a) The Kaaba was build by Abraham ? b) That there has ever been a moment where the Kaaba was holy to the Jews and/or the Christians ? c) That human beings ever evolved into monkeys ? No problem if you haven't got any, but then be at least honest about it. Airmano |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:48am
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Hard stuff isn't it ?
What did I say again in my last post?: "I strongly doubt that his [Edward Gibbons] judgement about Islam would have/has been any better." Cheers: Airmano Ps: @The Saint: Any news from the Jinn, Angel and Noodle-Monster front ? So? What are you labouring to prove to yourself? That all those who paid tributes to Muhammad PBUH don't amount to much? That they are inconsistent or intolerant? Do you ever stop to introspect as to how petty you are? Only to further your negative agenda? No. I told you I do not converse with Jinns. Angels are beyond human beings and I do not read juvenile comics. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 05 May 2015 at 12:46pm
The Saint:
Touched a nerve, huh !? So implicitly you admit that citing Edward Gibbons as an admirer of Islam was a bad choice from your side (another one bites the dust). The same applies for the Hocus-pocus around the the Jinns. I would have found it more courageous to admit it openly instead of barking back the standard phrase of Mohamed being perfect, but I'm not a sadist and will stop on these two subjects if you don't insist from your side. Airmano |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 4:41am
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Touched a nerve, huh !?
Yes, it pains me when people make comments out of ignorance and bigotry. So implicitly you admit that citing Edward Gibbons as an admirer of Islam was a bad choice from your side (another one bites the dust). No, I admit nothing of the sort. These quotes are picked-up by the Muslims so your insistence about secular sources is fulfilled. For us the Quran and the Hadiths more than suffice regarding the truth about Muhammad PBUH. Besides Muslims also read commentaries on his exalted character and accept them which you could also, but don't. The same applies for the Hocus-pocus around the the Jinns. Regarding the Jinns, why don't you write to Islamicity? Ask them how you could go about contacting them? I would have found it more courageous to admit it openly instead of barking back the standard phrase of Mohamed being perfect, but I'm not a sadist and will stop on these two subjects if you don't insist from your side. It is trifling issue. You are clutching at straws as I said earlier. However, if you like playing this game of discrediting commentators let me give you another assignment. Here's another quote_ There is Muhammad, the Prophet; there is Muhammad, the Warrior; Muhammad, the Businessman; Muhammad, the Statesman; Muhammad, the Orator; Muhammad, the Reformer; Muhammad, the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad, the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad, the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad, the Judge; Muhammad, the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is like a hero.� ― K.S. Ramakrishna Rao Let me see how you fare on this one. ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 5:05am
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Could you post the sentence where I express my denial ?
Hard stuff isn't it ? What did I say again in my last post?: "I strongly doubt that his [Edward Gibbons] judgement about Islam would have/has been any better." Did you read my last post/quotation from his book ? Does this really sound positive to you ? (on behalf of Mohamed) No, if the post is true, it is definitely not positive. But does that change the fact that elsewhere he did say positive things. You told me to read the book, did you ? - or was is just the usual copy and paste from your islamic webpages (that also copy and paste from each other without checking) ? What are you talking about? Please explain. How does this fit to Allah being "just"? An innocent person being crucified just because he looked like Jesus ? It could have been a criminal, you are once again only guessing. The noble verse says:It is stated in the Quran, That they said (in their boast), "We killed the Messiah Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), The Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety They killed him not-Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise- Q 4:157-158. Do you really think the Romans and the Jewish high priest were such fools ? They were fooled by none less than God Almighty Himself. Frankly, this is laughable. Not to me. I believe in Allah SWT, God of Jesus PBUH, your God and mine ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 1:33pm
Greetings The Saint, I wonder if anyone has ever tried to explain this passage of the qur'an to you from an outside viewpoint? 'of a surety they killed him not' - refers to the Jews it was only 'made to appear to the Jews' that they had killed Him , because in actuality it was by God's ordainment, and by the Roman's hands.... so yes, much disputing... about who was responsible for the killing of Yshwe... the Roman's or the Jews... Pontius Pilate was recorded to say; 'I wash my hands of the matter'... in other words he was declaring 'his blood is not on my hands, it is on yours (the Jews)'... this was the reason he offered a choice to them of which prisoner to release... he did not want it said that he was the one that had condemned Yshwe. 'They killed him not but allah raised him to himself' - refers to the resurrection and the ascension of Yshwe.... for Yshwe lives! That is the great news... the 'Good news of the Gospel'. and yes, much disputing over that fact as well.... surely the Jews did not want to admit, even to themselves, whom they had just asked the Roman's to crucify. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 1:47pm
The Saint:
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Airmano |
Posted By: 786iec
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 1:07pm
Muhammad SAW is great because one point two billion Muslims say so. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 08 May 2015 at 4:35am
786iec:
2 Billions, who offers more ? Airmano |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 6:38am
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So the logic goes: Mohamed is great because he told us so! Wow !
I am sorry I missed this post of yours. Btw, which part of my post did you fail to understand? I had said, "For us the Quran and the Hadiths more than suffice regarding the truth about Muhammad PBUH. Besides Muslims also read commentaries on his exalted character and accept them" I don't feel the desire to make a fool out of me. There is no harm in asking an Islamic site considering Muslims vouch for Jinns? In fact talking to Muslims, your being a fool will never be discovered? Great news that an unknown Muslim finds his prophet smashing. See you just put your foot your mouth is. Rao is not a Muslim. That is what makes what you fear to be. And here you're not guessing ? I always expect the best of God Almighty. So I conclude that god is fooling us!? May be they are not the only ones! Not always. But He does punish know it alls who refuse to see sense. I understood already. You did? I strongly suspect you are lying ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 7:07am
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Greetings The Saint,
I wonder if anyone has ever tried to explain this passage of the qur'an to you from an outside viewpoint? What, in your view, do you think it means? 'of a surety they killed him not' - refers to the Jews it was only 'made to appear to the Jews' that they had killed Him , because in actuality it was by God's ordainment, and by the Roman's hands.... so yes, much disputing... about who was responsible for the killing of Yshwe... the Roman's or the Jews... But Jesus PBUH was not killed. So, the question of who did it does not arise Pontius Pilate was recorded to say; 'I wash my hands of the matter'... in other words he was declaring 'his blood is not on my hands, it is on yours (the Jews)'... this was the reason he offered a choice to them of which prisoner to release... he did not want it said that he was the one that had condemned Yshwe. 'They killed him not but allah raised him to himself' - refers to the resurrection and the ascension of Yshwe.... for Yshwe lives! That is the great news... the 'Good news of the Gospel'. Of course, he lives. And he will come again as a Muslim and after defeating the enemies of Islam, he will dies ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 7:17am
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Almost 25% of the planet's population says yes to Muhammad. A few percentage points more are christians.
But how many christians are practicing and how many follow the teachings of Jesus PBUH? What will in-the-name only christians offer? ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 8:25am
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�� the religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. It is impossible not to admire, for example, their fidelity to prayer. The image of believers in Allah who, without caring about time or place, fall to their knees and immerse themselves in prayer remains a model for all those who invoke the true God, in particular for those Christians who, having deserted their magnificent cathedrals, pray only a little or not at all.� � Pope John Paul II ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 8:26am
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�The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and injustice were the least as compared with all other societies preceding it�.Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and fraternity.� � H.G. Wells ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 8:27am
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�Islam is a religion of success. Unlike Christianity, which has as its main image, in the west at least, a man dying in a devastating, disgraceful, helpless death� Mohammed was not an apparent failure. He was a dazzling success, politically as well as spiritually, and Islam went from strength to strength to strength.� � Karen Armstrong ------------- and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 6:00pm
Greetings The Saint, Do you not understand? You believe that Yshwe 'was not killed', because of this surah... but I do not see that is what this surah is saying. You believe it says, 'they killed him not', as in 'he was not killed', when in actuality it is saying, 'the Jews killed him not', because some would say it was the Roman's that killed him, and so there is much disputing... i.e., ... disputing over who did kill Him... not that He wasn't killed. I don't imagine many people understood the things Muhammad said... especially since he said them many different ways... but what the people saw was a leader they believed in, and so they followed him and repeated the things he taught them to repeat without knowing what they were supposed to mean.
If muslims knew the prophephies written in the Bible, they would recognize what islam is..... (I had written, and expounded on this just last week. I really wish muslims knew what was written in the Bible. It would open their eyes.) asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 7:12pm
Greetings The Saint, I read Karen Armstrong's book on islam. Reading this today put me in mind of the scripture; 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. King James Version (KJV) God does not choose the powers of men to show His glory, but rather the meekest of men. Attaining power and glory for self in this world, is not the power and glory of God. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |