Hi everyone

I've decided to bring my thread over from the old forum. Since there's been a quite a bit of talk again recently on wearing the hijab / scarf. My research was on the rulings more so than reasons why. Mostly here Nausheen is the one who helped, while a few did offer their insights to, and provided more explanations. I have not been at this for almost two years, so please forgive any naivity here on my writings  

I ask for ALL to please NOT post anything till I have brought all posts relevant to the subject, I just like to have this in an orderly fashion first than have it interpretated.  Then after, you girls (and boys) can go for it  

I don't think I will join in in discussions as I have just about exhausted my own talks and thoughts about it  

oh and I will let you know when you can start replying - if that is what you want to do

p.s: the links I've provided, not sure if they are still working, haven't checked them.

"Take away love and our earth is a tomb".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
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MORE ON HIJAB

A disclaimer first, I�m not saying that the hijab is wrong (or right) I�m on neutral grounds here, I�m not fussed if someone want to wear it or see it as their belief to do so as many here do :-) and I guess the debate on the topic probably won�t go away either ;-)). I�m not talking about the reason why to cover up that has been debated & discussed quite thoroughly here: http://wb.islamicity.com:8080/~IslamiCity/�http://wb.islamicity.com:8080/read?61208,4� - http://wb.islamicity.com:8080/read?61208,4

The other side of the issue it seems is the ruling on wearing the hijab, it varies and varies with interpretation of the qur�an and hadiths, especially when there is so many thinking people these day. Something came to my attention about the hijab, not the hijab itself but a type /style of hijab (to which I�m trying to decipher which style?). I�m not aware if you know about this guy of late Amir Taheri who wrote a report This is not islam and that he interviewed Mussa Sadr, an Iranian mullah back in the 1970�s who confessed to inventing this hijab to show �Shi'ite women would be clearly marked out, and thus spared sexual harassment, and rape, by Yasser Arafat's Palestinian gunmen who at the time controlled southern Lebanon.� And now its became a political ploy among the muslim extremists to keep control on what may not be the true Islam. And you might get the feeling why many see it as oppression. Full report here: http://wb.islamicity.com:8080/~IslamiCity/�http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/509� - http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/509

In the light of what is happening in France on the issue banning the hijab, I did a little more research into the history of the hijab since reading the report �this is not Islam� describing the form of hijab today is not prescribe in the qur�an and not around in the earlier days. I also came across a report about why France is imposing the ban, click here: http://wb.islamicity.com:8080/~IslamiCity/�http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/i/france_hijab.htm� - http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/i/france_hijab.htm that muslim extremists and other radical organization are such a problem then I don�t blame france for bring in the ban for the safety of its citizens both muslim and non-muslims, don�t you?
We sometimes don�t know the full story of things, perhaps Chirac knows something that we don�t ?

I find it interesting thou for me not until recently and learning about history also there wasn�t much mention of it as it is now. And I must wonder also in how much of it has become a political statement than a religious statement.
Fair enough to state this is who I am and I have certain values I want respected and it�s a personal choice, I don�t see wrong in that.
In my view I have never before seen such an uproar and controvisery over the Hijab and I haven�t seen or read anything of it in past history the controviseries and sometimes I have to think what�s the deal here why so much ?

Can any muslim (the older one) remember any such events over the headcovering ?

Throughout my research I come across many muslims don�t wear hijab because they believe its not part of a religious duty and it�s a matter of culture / tradition and that only the wives of the Prophet covered their faces for other men not to see them in sexual terms but not extended to other women, since the wives were married to the Prophet.
From this I can see where covering would come from especially when followers follow the way and illuminate them but not a duty or order. But how many turn this around to make law out if it.
For the Prophets wives only to veil goes in accordance with a point in Karen Armstrong�s book � A history of God which states that:
�the religion was later hijacked by the men, who interpreted texts in a way that was negative for Muslim women. The Koran does not prescribe the veil for all women but only for Muhammad�s wives, as a mark of their status. Once Islam had taken its place in the civilized world, however, muslims adopted those customs of the Oikumene which relegated women to second class status. They adopted the customs of veiling women and secluding them in harems from Persia and Christian Byzantium, where women had long been marginalized in this way. By the time of the Abbasid caliphate (750 � 1258), the position of Muslim women was as bad as that of their sisters in Jewish and Christian society. Today Muslim feminists urge their menfolk to return to the original spirit of the Koran�

I�ve come across many points that women in the middle east, Islamic dominate countries want to go back to what was the true islam of the Prophet, not to wear hijab / headcovering these women speak of the true islam and then you get the girls (and men) who do cover speak true islam like here at IC � not that I doubt you � but sometimes I think these women in the islamic countries must know something of their heritage to even voicing wanting to go back to true islam, somewhere along the line there is something a miss and a re-evaluation of assessment to be done. There must be some truth to it.

Back to France, I was also reading that not many turned out to protest the ban on the hijab in Paris as expected and that the many stayed away because they don�t believe in the hijab as such and some of those see it as an oppression being forced to wear the veil through threats & violence when also they know that its not prescribe (and if its prescribe how can a woman see the hijab as something good and for protection if she has / had been oppress, all she sees is hijab as a symbol of oppression and negativity to oneself and just wants to be freed?). And I also say this is of the situation for a lot women in Islamic countries.

In reality there are 2 means to the veil / hijab, 1) it is liberation/protection for some whether its a duty or not and 2) it is oppression whether it�s a duty or not.
And this comes from muslim women more, they�re the ones living with it everyday and they�re the ones with the experience of it.

If its true that this mulla Sadr introduce the hijab known today in the 70�s (and if its not true why confess really) then it�s a man made law and not God�s and isn�t this shirk in islam ?



Here are some links:
http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/i/france_hijab.htm

http://www.thecourier.com/opinion/columns/CM121903.htm

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/509

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shetubondhon/message/6172
read the replies also

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/archives/000189.php

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shetubondhon/message/6185
read the replies also

http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/essay-01.html


No offence, it wasn't what I set out to do.

Angel.

Many issues here..................Angel.

Clearly Quran asks women to guard their modesty. It also asks men to limit their gaze.

A researcher (a historian perhaps?) must be able to tell us how women of Prophet Mohammed's (pbuh) time used to dress up (or cover up)---especially women in the household of his nearest and dearest companions: This I must say is important to be researched and known.

But then one could always pass that evidence away as simply customary of those times--tradition!

So now one has to look into Ahadith (oral reports of Prophet's sayings, actions, etc) since the practice has been lost by the larger part of the community of Muslims through time..........otherwise one wouldn't have needed to probe narratives/Ahadiths at all in such a matter. And one has to 'weigh' the Ahadith to establish a 'level' of evidence.

This would be one way of a scholarly research into hijab.

However until then...............an individual might address the issue in the following way:

1. Think of a person one really Reveres.....ones grandad, Jesus, Buddha etc. Then imagine one is going specifically to meet this personality. And think of how one would want to dress............and then think why would one dress otherwise at other times.............were it not to 'tempt' others. And if really the subconscious and hitherto unrealised objective is temptation of others........then one should not complain if another gets a little out of control!
So really what is the PURPOSE of exposing legs upto mid thighs, upperlimbs upto the shoulders, neck line upto the cleavage, belly from the hips up to the ribs? What is the dividing line between looking good to others and tempting others? Is this just a mating ritual with the power to choose only with the fairer sex?
What should the world think of me...when I come out of my mercedes 500 in Aramani with silver platters full of roasted lamb, turkey, and caviar ALL for MYSELF while I am in a village struck by longstanding drought and famine?

2. Why do these people talk so much about rape...........and not at all about its motivating factors?

3. Perhaps the reason why Quran and hadith (to my knowledge) do not narrow it down to specifics is to leave individuals reach a conclusion based on their spirituality.........UNITL a STATE of ISLAM passes a legal order.

More later..............once you come back

Hello Angel,

A researcher (a historian perhaps?) must be able to tell us how women of Prophet Mohammed's (pbuh) time used to dress up (or cover up)---especially women in the household of his nearest and dearest companions: This I must say is important to be researched and known.

Although this does not add to what has already been written here on Hijab, I found the following a very simple answer despite lacking a bit on referencing.

Question

I am a student of the Quran. After going through it many many times, I have come to the conclusion that nowhere does it mention that women should cover their heads. In the following verse, God is asking women to cover their bosoms with a Khimar (a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a scarf, etc.), not their heads or their hair.
And tell believing women to lower their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, [with their Khimar] and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty... (24:31)
After all the Almighty does not run out of words. If He required of the believing women to cover their heads, He would have clearly said so. Is not then covering the head a cultural tradition? Is it not that it is this tradition which scholars have erroneously identified with Islam? Please comment.

Answer

You see it is imperative while interpreting the verses of the Quran to determine the addressee of a particular verse otherwise one is bound to end up misinterpreting the verse. The address in the Quran changes among the various groups present (Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hypocrites), and if one reflects on the context of a verse and has a flare for the language of this Divine masterpiece, it is not difficult to grasp who among the groups is addressed.
As far as 24:31 is concerned, it is obvious from its very first words that the believing women of the Prophet's times are addressed. The Arabic word used for believing women is 'Al-Muminat'. People normally translate this word without taking into account the article 'Al' (alif-lam) appended to the word 'Muminat'. The particle 'Al' if properly translated together with the word 'Muminat' to which it is attached would mean 'these believing women' and not 'believing women'. The phrase 'these believing women' obviously refers to the believing women who were present at the time these verses were revealed. It is an established historical fact the believing women of those times used to wear a khimar (a covering) on their heads and then made it fall along their bodies without covering their chests. It is they who are addressed and told that they must cover their chests as well.
In other words, since the directive is given to women who already covered their heads but did not cover their chests, it was not required to mention the covering of the head. So the point which needs to be understood is that while translating these verses one must give due consideration to the word 'Al-Muminat' and see in what form believing women already dressed and what was the additional directive given to them.
Moreover, the nature of this directive is such that it cannot be confined to the believing women of the Prophet's times: it pertains to every believing women. All directives which have moral implications are general. For example if it had been said in the Quran that 'these believing women should always uphold the truth and never lie', then though the believing women of a particular age are addressed, it obviously cannot be concluded that believing women of later times are not bound by this directive.
Therefore, in my opinion, covering the head is neither a cultural tradition nor the product of some scholar: It is the purport of the Quran.

"In other words, since the directive is given to women who already covered their heads but did not cover their chests, it was not required to mention the covering of the head. "

How odd! "...covered their heads but did not cover their chests...". Strange. Seems unlikely.

F

"Take away love and our earth is a tomb".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
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Haven�t forgotten about this thread, Nausheen (anyone) I have been working on a responses and not quite finished yet, tomorrow sometime it will be ready�Ah just wait ;-) but Pathseeker I can reply to yours now which is just below ;-))

I have put you in brackets [] ok?


[[Clearly Quran asks women to guard their modesty. It also asks men to limit their gaze.]]

Sure the qur�an ask to guard modesty but does it mean that you have to wear hijab, head covering? Especially when modesty means differently to different regions, today and in the past? So wouldn�t God know this and left it up to the person to decide, as long as they are practicing their faith and being righteous?

[[A researcher (a historian perhaps?) must be able to tell us how women of Prophet Mohammed's (pbuh) time used to dress up (or cover up)---especially women in the household of his nearest and dearest companions: This I must say is important to be researched and known.

But then one could always pass that evidence away as simply customary of those times--tradition!]]

Exactly, it seems to me that women (and men) wear accordingly to what is acceptable to them while following religion, it doesn�t make them any less righteous which is the first and foremost command in Islam, right?

[[So now one has to look into Ahadith (oral reports of Prophet's sayings, actions, etc) since the practice has been lost by the larger part of the community of Muslims through time..........otherwise one wouldn't have needed to probe narratives/Ahadiths at all in such a matter. And one has to 'weigh' the Ahadith to establish a 'level' of evidence.]]

I understand that and see why but is not �the conditions laid down by God take precedence over the conditions set by man� according to Ali the 4th Caliph ?
And does this not also apply to Muhammad who was a mere man even though he was choosen to show God�s words ?

[[So really what is the PURPOSE of exposing legs upto mid thighs, upperlimbs upto the shoulders, neck line upto the cleavage, belly from the hips up to the ribs? What is the dividing line between looking good to others and tempting others? Is this just a mating ritual with the power to choose only with the fairer sex?]]

Honestly I can scream at such things, this concept needs to be reviewed among the group, and it�s a degrading & insulting point for many who do not dress for seductive reasons and prostitute themselves!!
Women can dress modestly and look good and feel good without being such!
It�s not all about looking good to others and tempting others which is being seductive to attract.

There IS the concept of looking good for oneself only and feeling good about yourself inside and out and NOT for others!!
Try and understand this.

To answer the second question and IF one is doing that, perhaps there�s not much of a dividing line btw looking good for others & tempting others (and the question is: tempting what ?? its doesn�t necessarily mean sex in all cases) and perhaps it is just a mating ritual considering natural science & biology of attracting.

[[What should the world think of me...when I come out of my mercedes 500 in Aramani with silver platters full of roasted lamb, turkey, and caviar ALL for MYSELF while I am in a village struck by longstanding drought and famine?]]

You have money ;-))
But seriously, its nobody�s business but yours really, you earned it and you choose how to use it, but being in a village of famine and drought like that is not really fair, don�t you think ?
I think it�s a silly question.

[[2. Why do these people talk so much about rape...........and not at all about its motivating factors?]]

Who are these people ??

[[3. Perhaps the reason why Quran and hadith (to my knowledge) do not narrow it down to specifics is to leave individuals reach a conclusion based on their spirituality.........UNITL a STATE of ISLAM passes a legal order.]]

I would somewhat agree here, in other words God left it up to individuals choose accordingly. A God given right.
But I don�t understand � passes a legal order ? If you mean that the state, the legal authourites/governments to pass a law on how one dress�s ? If that happens (and it has happened with Mulla Sadr in 1975 ordering the hijab to be worn and I�ve provided a link to his confession) then you are taking away the God given right to choose that God gave to people/individuals, if you do that then you are defying God.
Do you not agree ?


Angel.

Angel you are italicised.

I have put you in brackets [] ok?

Ok. I know----sometimes I do need restraints :)

Sure the qur?an ask to guard modesty but does it mean that you have to wear hijab, head covering? Especially when modesty means differently to different regions, today and in the past? So wouldn?t God know this and left it up to the person to decide, as long as they are practicing their faith and being righteous?

I don't know if you noticed, but I, from my side, have not given any definitive interpretation of Modesty. However, in my posts is reflected the view that I do consider covering of head and face as more cautious and God-fearing approach, personally, while entertaining the fact that other readers of Quran and interpreters of Hadiths may not do so--- and as I said before that it is the level of faith that reflects ones view.

A parable from me:

An exam date is fast approaching while we are students in a university. We all wish to pass the test. We all make some preparatory attempts. Most of us, perhaps, can tell when the preparation is so bad that chances of passing are almost non-existent. But what is that level that guarantees passing? And what guarantees distinction? At least I have never been able to find that out! The more the effort the better----thats what everyone says.

Clearly a head and face cover cannot be wrong.

You say "God knows this and left it up to the person to decide, as long as they are practicing their faith and being righteous". So really if that someone is 'really' being righteous, she would be ensuring that whatever Modesty IS in an Absolute form, it is fulfilled in her. This is what I would call being righteous, anything else is carelessness and heedlessness.

If you know GOD wants you to be Modest but to you it is not clear how much, then you must always raise your assumed standards if GOD's command means anything at all---for I know not what over modesty is!

it seems to me that women (and men) wear accordingly to what is acceptable to them while following religion, it doesn?t make them any less righteous which is the first and foremost command in Islam, right?

You see that is where the problem is ---- you are thinking from an alien perspective according to my views.

Now read this:

I believe in a Supreme God. HE is above all. HE is my creator. HE is the Ultimate reality. HE is my goal.

HE asks modesty from me in dressing up. I shall therefore dress up in a way that is 'acceptable to me'.
Do you notice its the same old ME-ism eventually even after so much of HIM at the outset?

And does this not also apply to Muhammad who was a mere man even though he was choosen to show God?s words ?

And here Angel you know what the problem is? You have not read Quran to understand Islam. Whatever you might have read, might have been to answer questions on Islamicity :)

Being Word of GOD, Al-Quran passes on Divine authority (BUT NOT DIVINITY) to Mohammed (pbuh) as well as to an Islamic State (unless its laws are against Quran and Sunnah).

"He (Mohammed-pbuh) does not speak of his own accord".
"In him is for you a Perfect Example"
"Take what he gives and leave what he shuns"

These are how I remember the translations of some verses in the Quran. Reference may be provided if required.

There IS the concept of looking good for oneself only and feeling good about yourself inside and out and NOT for others!! Try and understand this.

I don't know how else to put it so as not to offend you and others-----but truly I desire not to hurt your feelings---apologies in advance:

Revealing body makes one feel good? Then why not just stand naked in front of the mirror and just keep feeling good in private. Why in public?
Does one don better clothes at home than outside? This would show how interested one is in looking good to oneself rather than (tempting) others.

To answer the second question and IF one is doing that, perhaps there?s not much of a dividing line btw looking good for others & tempting others (and the question is: tempting what ?? its doesn?t necessarily mean sex in all cases) and perhaps it is just a mating ritual considering natural science & biology of attracting.

Now you have contradicted your earlier statement. Let me tell you point blank -----------even you, as a woman, do not know of any other reason why women like to expose themselves besides the reason of an inner (subconscious) desire to sexually attract. I know it will take time to sink in----but I can tell you with certainty you have no other explanation. So if such is the desire, and one does not take care to attract a particular target (let us say a husband) and invites all----then why cry rape at all?

But seriously, its nobody?s business but yours really, you earned it and you choose how to use it, but being in a village of famine and drought like that is not really fair, don?t you think ? I think it?s a silly question.

No Madam----certainly NOT!

There are two parties to this business:

I, the person showing off, AND them people (I am showing off too). If I feel my pleasures from showing off should be tolerated and respected; then I gotta respect their desire of not being tempted.

If that happens (and it has happened with Mulla Sadr in 1975 ordering the hijab to be worn and I?ve provided a link to his confession) then you are taking away the God given right to choose that God gave to people/individuals, if you do that then you are defying God. Do you not agree ?

Mulla Sadr? I don't know. But Quran does give an Islamic State this right. A true Islamic State is not only for prosecution of crime, but also for its prevention. In fact absence of the latter invalidates the former! A truly Islamic state must ban sexual exploitation of women AND also forbid tempting of men by women. Women who covet lust of men for them, and men who exploit women for secondary gains are strongest opponents of Hijab. Foremost you will find lobbyists from the corporate world that force leaders of nations to curtail a potentially contagious hijabism. Things don't sell well without a gynaecoid pelvis :)

"Take away love and our earth is a tomb".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
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Sorry for taking so long, was working and researching :-)


MORE ON HIJAB � PART 2 ;-)

Since this is going to be a big post, nausheen I have put your postings in these brackets, doubled {}, ok? :-)
I have covered a fair bit and picked pieces out to discuss and hopefully it flows in somewhat ordered fashion.
I haven't covered a few verses that will take more time maybe at another time right now I don't feel like it, all this has taken a fair bit of time and I can't write quick, this bit took 2/3 days to write up :-)
let's begin :-)

{{Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin: When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads. Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 32, Number 4090.
and
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Safiyyah, daughter of Shaybah, said that Aisha mentioned the women of Ansar, praised them and said good words about them. She then said: When Surat an-Nur came down, they took the curtains, tore them and made head covers (veils) of them. Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 32, Number 4089.}}

But this refers to the women of ansar, who are apparently women of Medina and not for ALL women otherwise it would / should be mention in another way.

{{and:
Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) brought Fatimah a slave which he donated to her. Fatimah wore a garment which, when she covered her head, did not reach her feet, and when she covered her feet by it, that garment did not reach her head. When the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) saw her struggle, he said: There is no harm to you: Here is only your father and slave. Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 32, Number 4094.}}

Is this below, not the full explanation of the above 3 parts?
And they are hadiths not commands from God.

"How praise-worthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge." Yet at another occasion, she said: " May Allah have mercy on the women of Ansar! When the Qur'anic verse relating to the wearing of jilbab (a long and loose gown which covers a woman's body from neck to feet) was revealed to the Prophet (saw), they tore off their big sheets of cloth and covered themselves with their torn parts and in this state offered their prayers behind the Prophet (saw) as silently as if crows were seated on their heads." http://members.aol.com/khananis/women.htm

�(Ayeshah praised the women of Ansar for their spirit of enquiry and learning, saying, 'How praiseworthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge.' (Sahih Muslim Kitab al Tahrat))� http://www.agnatemoslem.com/data/hadiths/had5/had50.html


It�s obviously the long gown which happen to cover the neck to the feet (no mention of headcovering) was the cloth (not curtain) that they tore up and covered their heads in, to pray in.

It seems that the modesty of the women of ansar was not a problem and could go about even learning for which they were praised for while in their own modesty and when the qur�an verse for jilbab, the long loose gown from neck to the feet was revealed later, then they took up the jilbab made from the torn sheets and here it gets a bit scratchy for me, if the jilbab is a gown from the neck to the feet, this doesn�t mean covering the head. So it doesn�t go with �as silently as if crows were seated on their heads� nor the way its also versed �came out as if they had crows over their heads� (whatever exactly that means :-|) and if they did have a head covering then it was for the state of prayer that is mentioned, it speaks of nothing else.

{{The following excerpt is taken from this article.

Allah the Exalted says in Surat an-Noor, ayah 31:
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their veils over their (necks and) bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no knowledge of women's private parts. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn you all to Allah in repentance, O believers, that you may be successful.}}

It�s pointed out that words in brackets in any qur�an verses is an addition to the qur�an and if there should be any explanation, then as a footnote underneath it.

Here�s the other version I seem more in favour:

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this dress in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, the male servant or other employee whose sexual drive has been nullified or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake or reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to God, O you believers, that you may succeed" [24:31].

It seems that btw versions the words � chastity, modesty & private parts get put in place at the end of the first sentence. It�s confusing at times.
I�ve come to learn that private parts in Arabic is awaat which is the word used in the qur�an and in the verse 24:31 it means puberty to which one becomes aware sexually physically of the opposite gender and of oneself.
As for chastity that for me, would be guarding ones body from sex before marriage (if that is what you believe in).
And for modesty, well modesty means differently to different people about how one dress�s and then again here for me its also for how one conducts their affairs whatever they maybe.

To me if you going to have an English translation, then its got to be one or the other of the three, not all since they have different meanings.

The second sentence of the verse 24:31 �they shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary�. What is necessary?
Depending on the (women�s) situation and through choice figuring out what is necessary or apparent for them is their choice really. In modesty, modesty means differently in different regions, for surely God knew this ? and left it up to each woman to decide for herself upon her situation & community she lives in.
�Modesty for a woman who lives in New York may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Cairo Egypt. Modesty of a woman who lives in Cairo, Egypt may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia. Modesty of a woman who lives in Jidda in Saudi Arabia may not be accepted by a woman who lives in a desert oasis in the same country�. http://www.submission.org/dress.html (extensive description on dress)

And as long as they follow being righteous in religion for it�s the first and foremost command in Islam, while wearing what is acceptable, then a woman will choose accordingly in how she presents herself dress wise because one who covers, uses hijab, may not be (or are not) righteous and still be seductive towards the opposite gender.
The best garment is the garment of righteousness, is not ?
And also what is in your heart and your intentions most of all counts ?
Just because one is covered up and its been mentioned before doesn�t denote being good nor protects you from harm.
I�m sure God would have known this.

Where in the verse it says head covering?
For the section they shall cover their bosoms �juyoob� (or chest �gayb� in some versions), while looking at the Arabic translation there seems to be no word for head �raas� or for hair �shaar� in the verse and if the juyoob also refers to the neck, still were does the head / hair come into it?
In this link, it further explains:� In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget. God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair�. http://www.muslimtents.com/aminahsworld/Dresscode.html

To me it seems as that many wore head covering �hijab� and or face veil �niqab� or burka depending on their situation and where they lived and having a choice to wear / donne these clothing items not through order / command But local customs.

Islamic history shows that not ALL women covered, wore head coverings, only certain groups did and that in the late Safavid dynasty changes to customs were made but not in the beginning nor from the Prophet. Some women today want to go back to what was original practiced and I mentioned this in my original post.
So why do some women cry out who feel and know they are oppressed, wanting to remove the hijab? If its ordered in the qur�an then they should be happy to wear but they are not.
It wouldn�t be because not all women wore the head covering in islam especially considering the two description I provided in my original post:
##That only the wives of the Prophet covered their faces for other men not to see them in sexual terms but not extended to other women, since the wives were married to the Prophet.
From this I can see where covering would come from especially when followers follow the way and illuminate them but not as duty or order.
For the Prophets wives only to veil goes in accordance with a point in Karen Armstrong�s book � A history of God which states that:
�the religion was later hijacked by the men, who interpreted texts in a way that was negative for Muslim women. The Koran does not prescribe the veil for all women but only for Muhammad�s wives, as a mark of their status. Once Islam had taken its place in the civilized world, however, muslims adopted those customs of the Oikumene which relegated women to second class status. They adopted the customs of veiling women and secluding them in harems from Persia and Christian Byzantium, where women had long been marginalized in this way. By the time of the Abbasid caliphate (750 � 1258), the position of Muslim women was as bad as that of their sisters in Jewish and Christian society. Today Muslim feminists urge their menfolk to return to the original spirit of the Koran� ##

And some more points in not covering:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 22 Narrated Anas: The Prophet stayed for three days between Khaibar and Medina, and there he consummated his marriage to Safiyya bint Huyai. I invited the Muslims to the wedding banquet in which neither meat nor bread was offered. He ordered for leather dining-sheets to be spread, and dates, dried yoghurt and butter were laid on it, and that was the Prophet's wedding banquet. The Muslims wondered, "Is she (Saffiyya) considered as his wife or his slave girl?" Then they said, "If he orders her to veil herself, she will be one of the mothers of the Believers; but if he does not order her to veil herself, she will be a slave girl. So when the Prophet proceeded from there, he spared her a space behind him (on his she-camel) and put a screening veil between her and the people.

and

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 523 Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet stayed with Safiya bint Huyai for three days on the way of Khaibar where he consummated his marriage with her. Safiya was amongst those who were ordered to use a veil.

Before I get to the last 4th evidence, these 2 hadiths above.
Why are the Mothers of the believers excluded from others to veil ?
It seems to be to distinguish the Prophets wives who have a different status from other women most notably slaves, and here I can see why that other women (not slaves) would wear veiling along with the guard yourself. Why would you want to be seen as a slave?
But there begs a question What about the slaves who were believers themselves? I�m sure there were muslims slaves also in those times.

And this 4th piece which I assume is an hadith but is a bit contradictory to the ones above since this one below speaks of Aisha not wearing a veil out of choice and wishing to show her beauty but it does demonstrate that veiling is not necessary and not a command of God.
When the son of a prominent companion of the Prophet asked his wife Aisha bint Talha to veil her face, she answered, "Since the Almighty hath put on me the stamp of beauty, it is my wish that the public should view the beauty and thereby recognized His grace unto them. On no account, therefore, will I veil myself." http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/essay-01.html (this is a good read)


Further references:
http://www.submission.org/women/hijab.html



In a society in Africa, the tribe � Tuareg, who are muslim, the men wear hijab which is called: �the tagelmoust, which covers the top of the head, the nose and the mouth, typically revealing only a pair of dark eyes. The tagelmoust serves both as a practical necessity in the heat and dust of the desert and a means of showing respect for strangers. The Tuareg are said to consider it rude for a man to show his mouth in public. The same is not true for women. Indeed, the Tuareg are the only Islamic people who encourage men, rather than women, to cover their faces.� http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,164-654269,00.html


How can not wearing a head covering not be tribal / customs but just a command in the qur�an? It would go against the qur�an verse 49:13:
�O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Omniscient, Cognizant�


More on the Tureg:
http://www.ksafe.com/profiles/p_code/36.html



Ali the 4th Caliph says �the conditions laid down by God take precedence over the conditions set by man�

Does this not also apply to Muhammad who was a mere man even though he was choosen to show God�s words ?



Angel

Hello angel,

I am dealing your post in three points, and one point does not finish in one sentence, so please do not read the sentences as assorted statements, instead in a continuity explaining things as the post progresses.

Another thing is that I want to write it fast, so instead of using html tags, I have used capital letters. These are only emphasis, am not shouting on you ;)

I think on the whole you have three points
1. where is the command for an hijab, in the quran
2. why is the command deduced from the hadith and not the quran alone
3.if the women did not cover the faces, were they being regarded as slaves?

FIRST POINT IN YOUR POST
If am not mistaken, u want to ask if the command from God to cover is there in the Quran or not, right?

To this, myself, pathseeker and Mustafa had answered to you that YES there are verses which relate to this.

In order to examine verses, � to understand exactly how we muslims are supposed to follow these, we have a methedology, � that is used in most cases universally. We refer first of all to the hadith which explain these verses. This is so, because as the quran was being revealed, the muslims used to go to the Prophet to explain to them, how exactly they were supposed to understand these. The prophetic tafsir (explanation of Quran) of the quran are most trustworthy of all other hadith.

The reason why I gave to you the hadith of ansar women is because at that time, when the verse was revealed the way ansar women followed the verse, is to be taken as the correct way. Your comment �.

But this refers to the women of ansar, who are apparently women of Medina and not for ALL women otherwise it would / should be mention in another way. But this refers to the women of ansar, who are apparently women of Medina and not for ALL women otherwise it would / should be mention in another way

Peace,

Although I try not to praise others while they are actually present, sometimes I do get carried away.

Angel's last post in this thread was an extraordinary effort from a non-Muslim trying to question/understand certain Islamic views held by majority of Muslims....something quite similar to what I would have written 3-4 years ago :)

Nausheen's reply is the best I have read in this area. In some ways it was also educational for myself. It has also motivated me to undertake an initiative in increasing personal understanding with a broader vision.....God willing.

So when one is to research how the commands were followed, we will look into the PEOPLE who followed them, and here in this very case the ppl who were the first to follow, after the family of the prophet were the ansar women.......
In order to study the Quran in the command to cover, we are supposed to look at how the command was carried out by muslims who were the first recipients of those commands.
The hadith is a proof, that the verses were understood by the people correctly. Because if they had been wrong, the messenger was there to look into their mistakes and correct them........
Nobody can understand the quran just by reading it alone. This is given in the quran as well, where it says, 'take what the messenger gives you and leave what he forbids'. The hadith which are given to you EXPLAIN the verses, THEY DO NOT STAND INDEPENDENT OF THE QURAN......
The hadith is a proof, of how that command was understood. Since the hadith was LIVED IN THE TIME OF THE MESSENGER, the way women understood the command of the quran, is to be regarded in an ADDITIVE manner.....

I think the above (in italics) from her post explains well the difference in approach in understanding GOD's commandments between Muslims and people of other faiths. We are traditionalists, and continually endeavour to take the understanding of those whose understanding was approved by the person through whom came the divine message. We appreciate that understanding of Signs of GOD (e.g. Al-Quran) depends upon the ability to understand. And the ability to understand is a gift from GOD. Since that gift does not come announced, it is only in the hereafter one may discover how much or little one had been gifted.
Thus, just as we keep praying and seeking for that gift while trying to understand HIS signs, we keep a check on ourselves by being traditionalists. However, since traditions come from different sources and methodologies, we take caution while giving them a level of evidence/certainty. The equation that eventually determines our understanding is made up of our prayer/ability to seek, our individual understanding of the Scripture(s), the transmitted 'narratives' of the explanations of the Messenger of GOD/Prophet (pbuh) and 'approved' understanding/actions of the earliest Muslims. These are the variables in the equation, in which the constant is only the Scripture itself. Some of our views/actions fall outside this equation but believed to be most certainly Divinely ordained whether or not scriptural. These have been practiced (and therefore practically transmitted) regularly without a break by the community of Muslims at least since the time of Mohammed (pbuh) if not earlier--- for example, prayer, circumcision, fasting, Zakat, Haj etc.

"Take away love and our earth is a tomb".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------

Hi back at chya :-)

Nausheen you are in triple brackets {}
{{{If am not mistaken, u want to ask if the command from God to cover is there in the Quran or not, right? }}}

Yes, mostly the hijab � the headcovering not the face veil, I know the face veil is an option as well as the burka to which both of these are ordered in some parts of the Islamic region and also for the woman who chooses for more piety to which I see this no different for the hijab.
{{{The prophetic tafsir (explanation of Quran) of the quran are most trustworthy of all other hadith.}}}
Sounds like there many other hadiths, so which one is the one that is of the Prophet�s?

{{{So when one is to research how the commands were followed, we will look into the PEOPLE who followed them, and here in this very case the ppl who were the first to follow, after the family of the prophet were the ansar women.}}}

Gee what happened to the men ? ;-)))
So basically you�re saying that because these women (both the Prophet�s wives and the women of Ansar) were the first, they ought to be trusted in their views about the commands.

{{{THIRDLY, they prayed behind the prophet with their heads covered, explains they 'CAME OUT OF THEIR HOUSES WITH THEIR HEADS COVERED' as there is nothing that would otherwiese state that they covered ONLY at the time of the prayer, but later removed their head covers.}}}

That�s not how I understood it, for me it was that their heads were covered and this state offered prayers (at the time of prayer) behind the Prophet.
You never did say anything about this, Is this below, not the full explanation of the above 3 parts actually make it the 2 parts?

"How praise-worthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge." Yet at another occasion, she said: " May Allah have mercy on the women of Ansar! When the Qur'anic verse relating to the wearing of jilbab (a long and loose gown which covers a woman's body from neck to feet) was revealed to the Prophet (saw), they tore off their big sheets of cloth and covered themselves with their torn parts and in this state offered their prayers behind the Prophet (saw) as silently as if crows were seated on their heads." http://members.aol.com/khananis/women.htm

�(Ayeshah praised the women of Ansar for their spirit of enquiry and learning, saying, 'How praiseworthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge.' (Sahih Muslim Kitab al Tahrat))� http://www.agnatemoslem.com/data/hadiths/had5/had50.html

The way I understood it and as well as the parts you gave first, is that the women of ansar were already modest before the covering, before the command and for attempting to learn were praised for learning and then later when the verse came the women covered and then further praised for covering which they adorned the jilbab the gown from neck to feet and with torn sheets covered their heads and so while in this state of prayers behind the Prophet.
Have I missed something ?

As for looking like crows, still at a lose :-|, lol!
But there seems to be a difference to what you say: they came out as if they had crows over their head, to: offered their prayers behind the Prophet as silently as if crows were seated on their heads.

{{{And does righteousness not lie in moulding of ones life according to the guidance of the prophets (SAW)?}}}

I can�t exactly answer here, its not belief to mould to someone else even if I do follow some examples of others ;-) But for you I guess the answer is Yes ;-)


Where in the verse it says head covering? For the section they shall cover their bosoms �juyoob (or chest �gayb in some versions), while looking at the Arabic translation there seems to be no word for head �raas or for hair �shaar in the verse and if the juyoob also refers to the neck, still were does the head / hair come into it?
{{{Again this was explained fairly well, in one of the posts above by pathseeker �.. with the HELP of the hadith. The women would wear their khimar in such a way that it used to fall behind their shoulders (from the head) as khimar is a long scarf worn on the head. This verse is telling the women WHO WEAR THEIR KHIMAR FROM THE HEAD, LETTING IT FALL ON THE BACK, to take its edges, and cover their bosoms with it. (funny but Fezziwig thought the bosoms were nude, so the women were being asked to cover 'em, and now u think the head was not covered, and there is no mention of covering it �. Ur misunderstandings further explain how reading the quran is AIDED by a sketch of those times as contained in the hadith literature:))
The hadith EXPLAINS the verse in the QURAN, that was revealed to outline the dress code for women. The hadith is not a command. The hadith is a proof, of how that command was understood. Since the hadith was LIVED IN THE TIME OF THE MESSENGER, the way women understood the command of the quran, is to be regarded in an ADDITIVE manner. Not as a command in itself. Not as an individual report, but a part of the complete picture that is to be deduced by arranging all the pieces in right order.
However it should not be thought that the verse was revealed to those women only � because quran is a binding on all muslims of all times. As the quran says 'today I perfected your religion �.' The continuity of implication of this command(to cover) on the women of future generations was revealed in the verses that make QURAN applicable on all people of all times.}}}

Actually I was referring to the qur�anic verse 24:31, no hadiths. As I have looked there is no saying about hair or head. To me it should be stated so, even thou the hadiths explain the verses in the qu�ran.

Apart from that I get what you say :-)

{{{There is no condition to cover the face. As it was acceptable in the times of the prophet as well for women to leave their faces uncovered.
The ummulmomineen(mothers of believers or the wives of the prophets) did cover their faces, and they were not ordered by the prophet not to }}}

How do you explain the hadiths that say so, that the Prophet ordered them?
And I thought is was about head covering not face veiling?
Too much confussion ;-)), did I miss something ?

{{{The other question you ask is, about the slaves who were believers. Well, they were supposed to cover like other women � thus they did not cover their faces, but followed the rest of the dress code.}}}

Ok :-)

{{{As u quoted yourself, this was 'Aisha bint talha' �. Which means Aisha DAUGHTER OF TALHA.
Aisha daughter of talha was NOT ummulmomineen, I think u are confusing her with AISHA BINT ABU BAKR who was Aisha DAUGHTER OF ABU BAKR, the wife of the holy prophet, and thus ummulmomineen.
Since aisha bint talha was an ordinary muslimah, it was not required of her to cover her face. Does this remove the contradiction ;) ? }}}

Yes :-)
Some how forgot reading that it was the face, was too focused on the hijab I think ;-)

{{{The choices of those women were not personal choices, but those which were in accordance with the quran, and their choices were approved by the messenger. Therefore how the messenger understood the order, how he approved the women's dress code, is the correct way of following it.}}}

It seems different people have different understandings, why do some muslim women cry out to go back to the true islam of not wearing the hijab?
Are these women simply wrong (in your view) ?
I cannot see how these women would be all wrong?


I will write up something else, in time because I�ve realized something.


At them moment there is this, if Sahih al-Bukhari is recognized as authentic and is valid for you.
This verse below:
�The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab"

Here Muhammad rejected Umar�s request for veiling and seems to went out to prove his point after being rejected to get the verses for Al-Hijab. And so when the point was shown to the Prophet somehow the verses appeared from Allah more so upon Umar�s request.
What�s the deal here ? Why is Umar somehow dictating what should be revealed in the qur�an?
And why was Umar spying on the Prophet�s wives answering the call of nature ;-))


That�s it for the time being :-)

As for all the other stuff, explanation you gave I get but it doesn�t stop me from questioning stuff thou ;-))


Angel.

Hi back at chya :-)

"Take away love and our earth is a tomb".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------

Hi nausheen & Pathseeker :-)

Pathseeker you�re in brackets [[]] and Nausheen you�re in italics.

I want to get something cleared up first:

{And why was Umar spying on the Prophet?s wives answering the call of nature ;-))}

[[Firstly, and ignoring the provocative language you have used, what on earth gave you this idea that Umar (ra) was spying on Prophets wives?????? ]]

I think you got carried away when you phrased this question so carelessly ;) Angel, here u are talking about one of the best followers of Prophet (SAW) He is one of the four Khulfa rashidun �.. the righteous chalifs. Pls take care of the feelings of the host community when you refer to these personalities. Thank you.

First of all what gave me the idea is the verse itself ;-) and second I don�t how the question is provocative according to you Pathseeker, that�s not provocative. If you mean the words call of nature, it is used in the verse and if it�s the word spying, well that is what it seemed to me for the fact that Umar was anxious to have the verses for al-hijab, he went out to prove it somehow to get them revealed. That is the way it seemed to me and I mean no disrespect to anyone, no one shouldn�t be taking it otherwise. Some things for me cannot be put in any other way again, No offense is meant.

[[Angel.....you turned it all around..............I am disappointed!!!!!!!! ]]

I am sorry, I do not understand, What have I turned around ?, all I did was add a verse to the subject which is still on topic of covering and questioning it like everything else I do
;-)).
Don�t know what you�re disappointed for ?

You have a very bad habit of confining people :-| ;)
Use colors, they stand out more prominantly :) But its your choice, this is also fine by me.

Sorry :-)
Colors are good, I�ll just confine people to colors now :-P lol!

So may I know if you have understood the command as revealed in the Quran.

Yes, sorta I can�t help but feel that its part of culture and living conditions of living in the desert also somewhere there but anyway through all this it is clear from you and Pathseeker with all the information you brought in explaining and the methodology of the use of the books and some verses and that since the quran was revealed it has been an order to veil but still remains mix for me with this understanding.
And that there are many explanations of the verses both qur�an & hadiths that need some sifting through ;-) and Pathseeker throw a spanner in the works there why don�t ya, lol! The other version of the verse about umar, is pretty much what I know except those words you underlined � what does one do to believe which is which is right :-|
And also depending upon where your understanding is. I know when you read something at one point in time and it has an understanding for you and then at another time reading the same thing it will have a different understanding or meaning for you depends where you are in life, I think this is something like this when reading verses, I don�t know, it seems similar. :-)

I thought juyoob is the Arabic word for bossom And gayb for chest, which I believe is sometimes used and also the word awaat which means puberty in the verse 24:31 if you happen to use it, otherwise its use means private parts.
Not sure on awrah, where is does that come into it ?
p.s: you don�t need to repeat yourself that we are not well versed in arabic ;-))

u have improved a lot more in your writing skills :)
Thanks :-)


At the moment I have come to an end in this little research of mine and pretty much don�t have anything to give/question or any more understanding/explanations that are needed, right now.
It�s been good to sink my teeth into something :-)) and even though I�m not going to be muslim I have come away with more understanding, well mostly your understanding ;-) of what is and even though I made this thread mostly for myself here, but I think its good for everyone else to get a deeper perspective, perhaps I delved into areas/question things that perhaps may not get questioned by some people.

A great big thanks to you Pathseeker and Nausheen, you both have given me a lot there, I get it despite remaining mix ;-) � I�m sure you got frustrated with me at times nausheen ;-))


Peace
Angel
[p.s: Although no ones talked about Mulla Sadr and his confession. ] 

On 2/4/2004 3:57:00 AM, Angel wrote:
>Hi nausheen & Pathseeker :-)

Hi Angel,

Congratulations to you for coming to a closure on this thread :)

Just a very few things I want to respond to in this post.

>And also depending upon where
>your understanding is. I know
>when you read something at one
>point in time and it has an
>understanding for you and then
>at another time reading the
>same thing it will have a
>different understanding or
>meaning for you depends where
>you are in life, I think this
>is something like this when
>reading verses, I don�t know,
>it seems similar. :-)

This is indeed very true Angel. And may be sometime in future you will have a better understanding of what had been presented to you now :)

>I thought juyoob is the Arabic
>word for bossom And gayb for
>chest, which I believe is
>sometimes used and also the
>word awaat which means puberty
>in the verse 24:31 if you
>happen to use it, otherwise
>its use means private parts.
>Not sure on awrah, where is
>does that come into it ?

:)
Here is the transliteration of verse 24:31, and I underline for you all the words that have been highlighted either by us or you.

. Waqul lilmu/minati yaghdudna min absarihinna wayahfathna furoojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa ma thahara minha walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw aba-ihinna aw aba-i buAAoolatihinna aw abna-ihinna aw abna-i buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw banee ikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisa-ihinna aw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeena ghayri olee al-irbati mina alrrijali awi alttifli allatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawrati alnnisa-i wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinna watooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuha almu/minoona laAAallakum tuflihoona

You are right about Juyoob, but not about awrah, which appears as 'awrati alnnisa-i'. I think it is this which you think shld be appropriately translated as puberty.

Well i would say puberty is just one aspect of awrah ... but the word includes a lot more. Even a woman's voice is her awrah. The way she would carry herself is her awrah. ... and well ask a native arab, he/she may explain it a lot better than myself. Only i know this far is because I researched the command to veil a lot before I started to observe it myself.
But it is very true, what you said about a person's perspective in understanding a certain matter.

>p.s: you don�t need to repeat
>yourself that we are not well
>versed in arabic ;-))

Hope i did not repeat myself this time. ;)

>A great big thanks to you
>Pathseeker and Nausheen, you
>both have given me a lot
>there, I get it despite
>remaining mix ;-) � I�m sure
>you got frustrated with me at
>times nausheen ;-))

There is nothing to thank about, Angel. If u thank me, i thank you with equal sincerity, as u gave me a fair chance to present my religion to you :)
I was not fristrated with you this time.(and there have been so many other times where I have not felt frustrated (?)) Either I have grown in understanding with you, or you have improved, or both :) Anyways it was good I suppose.
On a side note, did i seem frustrated at any point ... am asking because i really did not feel this way :)

>[p.s: Although no ones talked
>about Mulla Sadr and his
>confession. ]

oops! who is he ... the iranian guy? Sorry, may be someother time :P

Peace,
Nausheen

On 2/6/2004 4:50:00 AM, NAUSHEEN wrote:
>:)
>Here is the transliteration of verse
>24:31, and I underline for you all the
>words that have been highlighted either
>by us or you.

Thanks :-)

>You are right about Juyoob, but not
>about awrah, which appears as
>'awrati alnnisa-i'. I think it is this which
>you think shld be appropriately
>translated as puberty.

Maybe, perhaps you should check out the link some time that I gave that explains.

>Well i would say puberty is just one
>aspect of awrah ... but the word
>includes a lot more. Even a woman's
>voice is her awrah. The way she would
>carry herself is her awrah.

ok, gives me more insight :-).

> ... and
>well ask a native arab, he/she may
>explain it a lot better than myself.

Ok
I'll ask Deist sometime ;-))

>Hope i did not repeat myself this time. ;)

Na :-))

>On a side note, did i seem frustrated at
>any point ... am asking because i really
>did not feel this way :)

No not that I notice really.

>>[p.s: Although no ones talked
>>about Mulla Sadr and his
>>confession. ]
>oops! who is he ... the iranian guy? Sorry, may be someother time :P

Perhaps another time, lol!


Angel.

That is all the relevant posts on hijab, my research, (there were other posts but they were unrelevent which did and would take the thread away from the subject) hope this helps any of you with your seeking knowledge. I don't know if this is new to you or some of you or it is old info but here it is

Now you ALL can go ahead and post your replies, if any  

Angel,

Thanks for taking the time to pull this forward for the benefit of all.  May Allah increase all of us in understanding the guidance He sent down to us.

Peace, ummziba.

Angel

Thanks for this reposting this thread, which has clarified many points.

I marvel at your enthusiasm and method of reasoning.

A personal question :- As Allah opened your heart to Islam yet? Just wondered.

Thanks once again.