Prophecy
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Topic: Prophecy
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: Prophecy
Date Posted: 20 June 2014 at 3:04am
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I'd like to ask non Muslims on this forum about a Prophecy from Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and ask if it has come to pass. The bit I'm concerned with will be highlighted. It was narrated that Abu Hurairah and Abu Dharr said: "The Messenger of Allah [SAW] would sit among his Companions and if a stranger came, he would not know which of them was he (the Prophet [SAW]) until he asked. So we suggested to the Messenger of Allah [SAW] that we should make a dais for him so that any stranger would know him if he came to him. So we built for him a bench made of clay on which he used to sit. (One day) we were sitting and the Messenger of Allah [SAW] was sitting in his spot, when a man came along who was the most handsome and good-smelling of all people, and it was as if no dirt had ever touched his garments. He came near the edge of the rug and greeted him, saying: 'Peace be upon you, O Muhammad!' He returned the greeting, and he said: 'Shall I come closer, O Muhammad?' He came a little closer, and he kept telling him to come closer, until he put his hands on the knees of the Messenger of Allah [SAW]. He said: 'O Muhammad, tell me, what is Islam?' He said: 'Islam means to worship Allah and not associate anything with Him; to establish Salah, to pay Zakah, to perform Hajj to the House, and to fast Ramadan.' He said: 'If I do that, will I have submitted (be a Muslim)?' He said: 'Yes.' He said: 'You have spoken the truth,' we found it odd. He said: 'O Muhammad, tell me, what is faith?' He said: 'To believe in Allah [SWT], His Angels, the Book, the Prophets, and to believe in the Divine Decree.' He said: 'If I do that, will I have believed?' The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Yes.' He said: 'You have spoken the truth.' He said: 'O Muhammad, tell me, what is Al-Ihsan?' He said: 'To worship Allah [SWT] as if you can see Him, for although you cannot see Him, He can see you.' He said: 'You have spoken the truth.' He said: 'O Muhammad, tell me about the Hour.' He lowered his head and did not answer. Then he repeated the question, and he did not answer. Then he repeated the question (a third time) and he did not answer. Then he raised his head and said: 'The one who is being asked does not know more than the one who is asking. But it has signs, by which it may be known. When you see the herdsmen competing in building tall buildings, when you see the barefoot and naked ruling the Earth, when you see a woman giving birth to her mistress. Five things which no one knows except Allah [SWT]. Verily, Allah, with Him (alone) is the knowledge of the Hour up to His saying: 'Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things).' Then he said: 'No, by the One who sent Muhammad with the truth, with guidance and glad tidings, I did not know him more than any man among you. That was Jibril, peace be upon you, who came down in the form of Dihyah Al-Kalbi.'"
In another translation the word herdsman has been substituted with Bedouin. |
Replies:
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 June 2014 at 6:36am
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I don't see herdsmen building tall buildings. I don't see the barefoot and naked ruling the earth, either. I see rich capitalists doing these things, and I don't expect that to change. I'd say Muhammad got it wrong.
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Eoah
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 12:27am
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Greetings brothers and sisters. Love. These things that Prophet Mohammed has said is perhaps like when we say, "And pigs will fly!", indicating the improbabiblity of the question. Perhaps it is Prophet Mohammeds' way of saying "Don't ask me. I am not God". |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 3:33am
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For those of you who just do not understand or have been living in a closet for years, Dubai currently has the tallest building in the world. However, Saudi Arabia is now considering/planning/building another tall building to beat Dubai. One could say both people are descendants of herdsmen or Bedouins. That's what the Hadith is about. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 4:34am
I suppose we're all descendants of herdsmen if you trace your geneology back far enough, but that's not what the hadith says. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Abu Loren wrote:Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 29 June 2014 at 11:52am
As usual, Ron missed the point! The prophecy foretold that people would build tall buildings. This has come to pass! Ron's best argument is that "well, it didn't exactly happen as Muhammad foretold it." Of course, he has no explanation for how Muhammad (peace be upon him) knew that 1400 years after him, people would build tall buildings! Now, with regard to the alleged absence of the "herdsmen" that Ron is so uptight about, the plain fact is that he again missed the point. Classical Islamic scholars, who lived centuries before the tall buildings were built, interpreted the reference to "herdsmen" to mean that the once poor Arabs would become rich and powerful. For example, Imam Nawawi stated: "The people of badi'a (the desert bedouins) and their like are indigent. There will come a time in which they become rich and build such structures to demonstrate their wealth." (As quoted by Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani in "The Approach of Armageddon? An Islamic Perspective", p. 92) Similar statements were made by such scholars as Tabarani and Qurtubi (ibid.). So, what the prophecy stated was that a time would come when the once poor Arabs would become so wealthy that they would use their wealth to build tall structures. This is happening as we speak. Alhamdulillah! There are many other prophecies that we can consider. If Ron is up to it, I can mention some more.  ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 29 June 2014 at 2:54pm
| So it's not the prophecy that has come true, but the interpretation of it by Imam Nawawi? |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 29 June 2014 at 3:15pm
Oh brother...  No Lachi. You missed the point as well. The point was that Muslims have believed from the start that the prophecy foretold the coming of a time when the poor Arabs would become so wealthy that they would compete with each other in the building of tall structures. Unless you have been living in a cave for the past few years, you would see this happening as we speak. Ron (and it seems you as well) was unable to realize that the reference to the "herdsmen" was a prophecy in itself in that it foretold their change in fortune from poor "herdsmen" into "rich capitalists" as Ron put it. This is how Muslims have interpreted the hadith, long before these events came to pass. In fact, another hadith of the Prophet mentioned by the scholar Tabarani stated: "[o]ne of the signs of the change of the Religion is the affectation of eloquence by the rabble and their betaking to palaces in big cities." If the "rabble" take to "palaces in big cities", what is this a reference to other than their reversal of fortune? Surely, poor people would not "betake to palaces". Only rich people do that. Think about it... ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 30 June 2014 at 3:34am
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I think people like Ron Webb understand fully well all of this but they want to twist it and turn it so that anything/everything to do with Islam looks bad. I wonder what answers he has thought up for the questions that he will be asked on the Day of Resurrection? |
Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 30 June 2014 at 4:44pm
Seems competing to build tall buildings is quite common among the herdsmen - http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2013&mm=10&dd=09&nav_id=87940 - http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2013&mm=10&dd=09&nav_id=87940 http://armstrongwilliam.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/a-competition-for-the-giant-camlica-mosque/ - http://armstrongwilliam.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/a-competition-for-the-giant-camlica-mosque/ http://www.e-architect.co.uk/kosovo/central-mosque-competition-entry - http://www.e-architect.co.uk/kosovo/central-mosque-competition-entry And so forth. |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 June 2014 at 8:14pm
So what's your point? Are you going to continue to pretend as if the prophecy has not come true? As I mentioned before, there are other prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) that have also come true. Would you like to see them? I only ask because Ron hasn't responded yet to my invitation, so I am now asking you...another skeptic. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 July 2014 at 6:04am
And that's a prophecy? I am underwhelmed. People have been building tall buildings since long before Muhammad.
You mean their descendents would become rich and powerful. Again, I am underwhelmed. I think it's safe to say that most rich people are descended from poor people if you trace it back far enough. And if that's what Muhammad meant, then why didn't he say it?
Just give me your best prophecy. This one is hardly even worth discussing. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 July 2014 at 12:04pm
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Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 01 July 2014 at 3:22pm
My point is that tall buildings, and competing over the building of them, has nothing to do with riches. The prophecy does not say that the herdsman will become rich. That is an addition and not in the original. Building tall buildings need not be due to the pursuit of capitalism. Surely it could mean a time when Islam will become more prominent - that the devotion of Muslims (herdsmen) will lead to splendour (tall buildings) in displaying the word of Allah? The articles I linked to might suggest that. The second part of the 'signs' says that the barefoot and poor will rule the Earth. Would this not be the state of Islam, which rejects the pursuit of wealth? Could the poverty and submission of the followers of Islam lead the World to submit to Allah's law? Please tell me more about the other prophecies. |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 July 2014 at 5:01pm
You're still not getting it. The prophecy stated that a time would come that the poor and downtrodden Bedouins would become wealthy and compete with each other in constructing tall buildings. In the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him), it would have been a bold statement to make. There was no indication that the poor Arabs would eventually become wealthy and start building tall structures.
Again, you missed the point. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the descendants would be rich and powerful and that they would construct tall buildings?
What are you talking about? He said that a time would come when the "rabble" would betake to "palaces in big cities". He also stated that "herdsmen" would compete in the construction of tall buildings. Obviously, "herdsmen" would not be able to build anything without wealth. In order to build tall structures, vast sums of money are needed. That is what the prophecy stated.
 You have so far failed to offer a reasonable excuse for why you have been "underwhelmed" by this prophecy. Here are some more prophecies:1. Sexual promiscuity - "Abd Allah ibn Umar (ra) related that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: 'The Hour will not come until there are men and women in the streets having sexual intercourse with each other like donkeys do." (Sahih Hibban, Number 1889) This prophecy has obviously come true. Sexual promiscuity is very common nowadays and is no longer considered taboo. In the time of the Prophet, it would have been unthinkable. 2. Christians will form the majority of people: "Mustaurid Qurashi reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would come when the Romans would form a majority amongst people. This reached 'Amr b. al-'As and he said: What are these ahadith which are being transmitted from you and which you claim to have heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? Mustaurid said to him: I stated only that which I heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). Thereupon 'Amr said: If you state this (it is true), for they have the power of tolerance amongst people at the time of turmoil and restore themselves to sanity after trouble, and are good amongst people so far as the destitute and the weak are concerned." (Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 6926) "Romans" was how the Muslims referred to the Byzantine Christians. In this hadith, it was prophesied that the Christians would be the "majority amongst people", which of course has come true since Christians are the most numerous religious group in the world, accounting for more than 30% of the world's population. Islam is second at around 25%. So here are two more prophecies which have clearly been fulfilled, alhamdulillah. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 04 July 2014 at 7:32pm
It doesn't say Bedouins. It says herdsmen. Most herdsmen are not Bedouins, so you can't equate the two.
Again, Muhammad said nothing about descendents. He said that herdsmen (not the descendents of herdsmen) would compete in building tall buildings. The people building tall buildings today are oil billionaires, not herdsmen.
You can't keep adding things that are not in the prophecy just to make it work for you. The prophecy said nothing about vast sums of money. In fact, the prophecy is extraordinary precisely because those building the tall buildings are herdsmen, presumably without vast sums of money -- not oil billionaires. If he had meant oil billionaires descended from herdsmen (or Bedouins), then there is nothing remarkable or worth prophecying about that.
I'm sorry, but you keep reading things into the prophecies that just aren't there. The prophecy does not refer to sexual promiscuity in general. It says men and women in the streets having sexual intercourse. Tell where this is occurring. I know of no such thing. On the other hand, if he meant sexual promiscuity in general, then that's nothing new. Ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah?
First, 30% is not a majority. Second, even if he only meant that Christianity would be the largest religion (not a majority), it's not obvious to me that Christianity was not already larger than Islam in Muhammad's time. It had a six hundred year headstart, after all, and I don't know if Islam ever made up that lead. So it seems to me that even with the most generous interpretation of both prophecies, the predicted "Last Hour" is likely overdue by at least a thousand years. Both prophecies fail on several levels. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Quranexplorer
Date Posted: 05 July 2014 at 6:01am
Going by the logic of Ron Webb, the only way this prophecy could have come true is when a group of herdsmen who lived during the time of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) continued to live for the last 1400 years and till today, and these herdsmen all by themselves (without the help of engineers or consultants or whatsoever � I think he will have a problem if somebody helped them build these buildings) started building some tall building and to compete each other!!!! � come on! then that is what a selective lack of common sense combined with a lack of faith can do to men who otherwise appear to be reasonable. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 July 2014 at 9:10am
Well, not exactly -- there is no reason why these herdsmen had to be alive in the time of Muhammad. But the whole point of a prophecy is that it must predict something unlikely or surprising. There is no challenge in predicting that rich people will build tall buildings. The prediction that herdsmen, specifically, would be building tall buildings is surprising, precisely because herdsmen would not normally have the resources for it, let alone the need for it. Why would herdsmen even need tall buildings? The Egyptian pyramids would qualify as tall buildings, and there did seem to be some competition among the pharaohs to see whose could be highest. Now all we have to show is that the pharaohs were descendants of herdsmen (which seems quite likely to me), and the prediction is fulfilled, perhaps thousands of years before Muhammad. See what I mean? This is easy.  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Quranexplorer
Date Posted: 05 July 2014 at 10:21am
Ok, so you have come so far to accept it can be descendants of herdsmen, not literally herdsmen, and have no problems to accept Pharaohs and pyramids to fit in to the explanation. But the whole point about a prophecy is it is always a futuristic statement and never referring to something in the past - so we can altogether eliminate the pyramids here. Now, who is more apt to be called descendants of herdsmen - the Pharaohs or the current oil billionaires in the middle east who literally were herdsmen till the oil riches started in the 20th century? an impartial analysis will tell that the current oil billionaires fits this title more precisely and just have a look at cities like Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh and Doha and you won't need to look for further explanation on the competition to build taller buildings. And to conclude, the building of tall buildings by herdsmen in itself is not being prophesied as a surprising event, but it is being predicted as a sign of the end of days - that is more significant because there is no human source who can predict the end of days precisely. So when these signs unfold in front of your eyes with such reality, you just can't stop thinking about the magnificence of the ultimate creator and be in awe of his magnificence. |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 05 July 2014 at 12:16pm
Excellent response, brother! It's amazing how people ask for evidence and then close their eyes when they are shown that evidence. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Quranexplorer
Date Posted: 05 July 2014 at 8:13pm
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Alhamdulillah, shukran Islamispeace.
True, but ultimately they have to as truth always prevails. Jazakallah khair. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 07 July 2014 at 4:45pm
No, I have not accepted that. I am simply saying for the argument, that if we assume that "herdsmen" includes descendents of herdsmen, then the prophecy changes from being extremely unlikely to extremely trivial and boring.
The pyramids were just an example off the top of my head, to show that people were competing in building tall buildings thousands of years before Muhammad. I'm sure a historian could come up with lots more examples, both before and after him. Given that herding was such a common means of subsistence in ancient times, it is safe to assume that at least some of these builders were descendants of herdsmen. Thus the "prophecy" becomes trivially easy, almost inevitable.
Probably both. The ancestors of the Pharaohs presumably lived in Egypt, another desert country where a nomadic lifestyle was common.
If the prophecy does not predict a surprising event or circumstance, then why should we be surprised or impressed when it comes true? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Quranexplorer
Date Posted: 11 July 2014 at 5:26am
So why don�t you first make up your mind and be firm on something. You started arguing it has to be strictly herdsmen, then changed to descendants of herdsmen is okay and argued pyramids and Pharaohs fits the explanation better. Now when you see the folly in all these arguments, you again start changing your words. Whereas we have been saying only one thing - that the current oil billionaires of the middle east fits this explanation perfectly as they satisfy all the three criteria in the prophecy � herdsmen, tall buildings and competition. The surprise element has no significance in this prophecy as it is being prophesied as the sign of something bigger to come i.e. the judgement day - so where is the question of unlikely, trivial and boring etc?
You must be kidding! Why should the prophecy say herdsmen will build tall buildings, they could have done thousands of other things, they could have built their statues, they could have gone fishing, they could have gone trekking, they could have played golf, they could have gone to mars and so on. When something doesn't fit to your idea, you just close your eyes and say it is dark. Now, if you think you have a better example than the oil billionaires of the middle east, just give it, who is stopping you? But it has to be something in existence now, not from the past as we all know a prophecy is always futuristic.
But the Pharaohs not even come in the picture as they lived prior to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) made this statement and I am not aware of any Pharaohs living now building pyramids to compete each other. When you are arguing there has to be some frame of reference, when it is about prophecy, you don�t have to confuse yourself with things of past.
I don�t know why you are breaking your head for a surprise element here. As I already explained the prophecy is all about a sign of something bigger to come - the judgement day. However, when the last day happens, it will be all of a sudden and it will be the most surprising event beyond anyone�s imagination, but then nobody will have the time to marvel at its surprise: Abasa: 80:33-37: But when the Shout cometh (33) On the day when a man fleeth from his brother (34) And his mother and his father (35) And his wife and his children, (36) Every man that day will have concern enough to make him heedless (of others). (37) |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 11 July 2014 at 6:05am
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I never said that descendants of herdsmen is okay. I said that even if we assume that's what he meant (which I don't), then the prophecy becomes trivial. There are descendants of herdsmen all over the world building tall buildings, and have been for thousands of years. Predicting that descendants of herdsment will build tall buildings is like predicting that the sun will rise tomorrow. It's not remarkable, it's obvious.
The prophecy said tall buildings because that would be surprising and remarkable. There is nothing remarkable about herdsmen building statues, going trekking, etc.
They are oil billionaires, not herdsmen. There are no examples of herdsment building tall buildings, never have been and never will be.
Simply to show that if we assume he meant descendants (which let me emphasize that I don't), then Muhammad was "predicting" something that had already happened. You're right, it would not be much of a prediction, which is why I don't think that's what he meant. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Quranexplorer
Date Posted: 11 July 2014 at 1:01pm
It is quite easy to give some generic unverifiable statement like descendants of herdsmen have been in the tall building business for ages. We have a very prominent example of descendants of herdsmen building tall building in the current middle east billionaires. If descendants of herdsmen have been building tall building all through human history, there should be some other prominent examples too, and some from the olden days immediately after prophet Muhammed (pbuh) should have been more prominent even with the surprise element as they would have been more of herdsmen and less of billionaires.
You mean building tall building is the only surprising and remarkable thing? what about going to mars?
We have already seen it's not logical to look for a literal fit to this prophecy and have also seen so far the oil billionaires of middle east provides the best fit to this prophecy, much better than your suggestion of Pharaohs.
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