Arguments with Atheists
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29692
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Topic: Arguments with Atheists
Posted By: Geeks
Subject: Arguments with Atheists
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 1:06pm
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Salam All,
I wanted advice as to how provide counter arguments from Atheists : 1) they argue that we teach religion as a fact when it is based on faith. 2) We have no evidence of existence of god. 3) if god existed, then horrible things in the world would not happen i.e innocent children dying, getting molested, raped while god just watches and allows these thing to happen. 4) there are so many religions around the world and everybody claims that theirs is the right one, so how can someone say Islam is the correct path. 5) atheists do not deny god, they say they have no evidence to believe in god, until some kind of proof becomes available they will not believe . 6) if god people are born into Islam are you saying that you were the chosen people ? What about those who were born outside of Islam , they are already doomed , as they were chosen by god to be in their respective religion. 7) if we believe in destiny , then god already knows who will go to hell therefore what is the use of this so-called test? These are some of the arguments , I would appreciate your responses. Thank you. |
Replies:
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 4:03am
Wa Alaikum Asalaam I will give you my understanding of God, religion and anything that is connected with it. In Shaa Alaah I hope it is of benefit.
Well to those who have faith in God Almighty it is a FACT. Once you are or become a believer in the Creator then your whole life revolves around it. For example, praying five times a day is not easy for some people.
On the contrary, as a believer in Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and what he has sent down to us as revelations there are pages and pages of examples. For example, just look around you as everything you see is a sign of God as He has created everything. Life itself is proof.
Every human being is given a free will which means that we can choose to do either good or evil. We are all 'assigned' a devil and many of us would rather listen to him than God Almighty. As for God watching and allowing these things to happen, all of us will be accounted for our actions on the Day of Judgment. He has given us laws to obey and to follow and for those who break it then there are terrible consequences. Breaking of God's Law's are called sin. Sahih International And
Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed,
Allah had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised
you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you
except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do
not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your
aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your
association of me [with Allah ] before. Indeed, for the
wrongdoers is a painful punishment." 14:22
That statement is correct, however, one must have guidance from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala to determine that they are following the right religion. He tells us in the Qur'an that He guides whom He wills.
See answer to question 2. But if they are asking for proof as in the angels coming down from heaven and proclaiming that God is the truth then they will have that but then the world will end. Sahih International And
those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Why were
not angels sent down to us, or [why] do we [not] see our
Lord?" They have certainly become arrogant within themselves and
[become] insolent with great insolence. The day they see the angels - no good tidings will there be that day for the criminals, and [the angels] will say, "Prevented and inaccessible." 25:21-22
There are good Muslims, bad Muslims and downright ugly Muslims. It is a myth to believe that all Muslims are good. However, there is a school of thought that says that these bad Muslims will be forgiven as they have not associated partners to God. The second part of your statement requires understanding of Qadr (Pre-destiny). There is a Hadith in which the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) says that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala chose the seed of Adam (Alayhi Salaam) that goes to heaven with His right hand and those going to hell with His left Hand. However, the people chosen for heaven could err and sin and if they do not repent then they can go to hell. Similarly those destined go go to hell can change their destiny by making du'a to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and repenting and asking forgiveness.
I think I answered this in question 6. The answer is we can change our destiny by following His commands, living a good life and repenting to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.
I hope my answers were useful in some way In Shaa Allah. |
Geeks wrote:Posted By: Geeks
Date Posted: 25 June 2014 at 12:41pm
| Thank you brother Abu Loren, definitely useful for me. But I am afraid that these answers will not be sufficient the atheists as they do not believe in the Quran, so when we reference our answers to the Quranic ayahs... They say the Quran isn't even understood by the Muslims themselves and there are lots of disagreements between the Muslims , so how can they be sure what's true and what's not... |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 July 2014 at 4:28am
You see that's just the problem. These atheists do not believe in the Truth, the Final Revelation to manking that Allah Subhana has sent down to mankind as a mercy.
There is absolutely nothing we can do to help them. If they do not have the guidance from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala they will not believe nor will they understand what we are trying to say to them.
Contrary to what they believe there aren't that many disagreements between Muslims, we all belive in the fundamentals. I wonder if they are talking about the different Madhabs?
Sometimes it is better not to debate with atheists because they will make you sad and depressed in the end, because you are trying to help them but they seem to drift far and far away into the hell fire.
For example, in this forum I've used a verse from the Qur'an where it states that whoever believes in the Most Meciful unseen they he will have a great reward. But the atheist here ridicule that statement because they want to see what they are worshipping. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us that they will SEE on the Last Day when it will be too late and they belief in Him will not be accepted.
So don't lose heart because as human beings we are limited and leave everything to the One Who Knows All.
Allahu Akbar!
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Posted By: Geeks
Date Posted: 01 July 2014 at 1:11pm
| Thank you. I agree that it is very hard to argue with them as they ask for proof that the Quran is the word of god. They also use the statement that " Allah will guide whom he wills " against us by saying that , there you go Allah does not want to guide us... It's up to him who he guides, therefore there is absolutely nothing we can do. I wish there was something I could say to bring back some people who have become non-believers . One person is a very close friend of mine, has had bad experience in life , so thinks that if Allah was so mericiful he wouldn't have allowed these things. That's why they do not believe , and if there was a deity , he doesn't need puny creatures like us to worship him. That's another argument . Also this person believes in evolution and firmly believes that if someone can prove the existence to Allah they will believe if not they do not want to worship someone they don't know and don't understand . |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 04 July 2014 at 12:34pm
The way I understand this conundrum is that because we have been given free will we can actually start relationship with God Almighty. One way is to seek knowledge and sometimes In Shaa Allah one will realise that there is indeed a God and once they have a pure and sincere intention then Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala will guide them to the Straight Path. One can also make du'a and, even though they are atehists, and In Shaa Allah their du'a will be answered.
If this person knew his deen then he would have known that this life is a test and some people are tested more severely than others. If he/she had read the Qur'an then it tells us
Sahih International And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, 2:155 As Muslims we must also know the story of Ayyub (Alayhi Salaam) whose family, wealth and everything he had was taken away from him but he patiently endured and never gave up hope on Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and after eighteen years of torment he was given everything that was better than what he had before.
In the Qur'an Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala expicitly tells us that He created mankind and Jinn to worship Him. How do we know that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala doesn't need puny creatures like us to worship Him? That's an arrogant statement to make.
I don't know your friend but it's clearly coming across as if he'she is very arrogant.
This is the explanation that most atheist give. Again Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us in the Qur'an that He will reward those who believe in Him unseen. On the flip side, if we all could see Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala then every single one of us will believe. That's not really a test is it?
Again Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us in the Qur'an that those who wish to see Him in person will have that opportunity on the Last Day when He will come down with the angels and spirits and then it will be all too late. That day no repentance will be accepted and those that will see Him when they were disbelievers will go stright to hell.
Many people are deceived by this idea of evolution, it was only a theory and nobody can prove a jot. Of course, if one believes in evolution then the Creator is taken out of the equation. At the end I suppose one has to choose.
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Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 12 July 2014 at 10:40pm
| Assalamalecum,first of all ask them who created them,y everything is perfect about them,y they have 2 eyes, 2 legs y not 3????, ask them who could have created the whole universe??? Y sun and moon come at their time y don't they come together. Let their wisdom do the working!!!answer to ur last query is given by Allah in ch 13 v 11 of Quran in which Allah saysthat Allah will not change the situation of those who don't want to change themselves.eg me, till I was 21 I was just a namesake muslim just reciting 1 salaah daily and jumuah salaah but now Alhamdulillah I m improved. |
Posted By: Tobias
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 1:29am
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I wanted advice as to how provide counter arguments from Atheists :
1) they argue that we teach religion as a fact when it is based on faith. 2) We have no evidence of existence of god. 3) if god existed, then horrible things in the world would not happen i.e innocent children dying, getting molested, raped while god just watches and allows these thing to happen. 4) there are so many religions around the world and everybody claims that theirs is the right one, so how can someone say Islam is the correct path. 5) atheists do not deny god, they say they have no evidence to believe in god, until some kind of proof becomes available they will not believe . 6) if god people are born into Islam are you saying that you were the chosen people ? What about those who were born outside of Islam , they are already doomed , as they were chosen by god to be in their respective religion. 7) if we believe in destiny , then god already knows who will go to hell therefore what is the use of this so-called test? __---------------------------------------------------- OK number one, you say we have no evidence of the existences of god... First off,, I wouldn't really refer to any creator we might have as a god, or Allah Or any other name as it makes us subserviant and I don't think that is our function.. As to proof of existence of a "Creator" ? Yes,, There is plenty of proof without having to believe in hearsay and scriptures but one must first put all belief systems to rest and reboot the brain to become objective about our perceptions.. What are our perceptions? They come from five senses we have, touch, taste, smell, sight, hearing!! We take these senses into our consciousness by way of electrical impulses to the brain,, so then. One can ask the question with objectivity. What is the true origin of these electrical impulses?? Is it the cup I feel in my hand,? Or could it be that this electronic impulse is just programming my consciousness to experience the cup? So,,,, one then would try to find clues within himself to conclude this debate,, My initial question was to ask.. Where did all things we call solid matter originate... Surely anything with any solid matter could not have appeared from space out of nothing?? So what's the alternative?? Electrical energy perhaps?? Something that Can become alive where supposed matter cannot.. A more likely scenario perhaps?? So being metaphorical ,, one could speculate that our creator is pure energy , having come to consciousness and is now having a dream called the human condition of which we are all a part of. No doubt, we are in a duality as we see conflicts and wars, These events are here to give us new experiences to discover and contribute towards the knowledge of our oneness. We have segregated borders, religions,languages,politics,even sports teams, These are all conflictive by design,, And the purpose of this is to allow us to burn our fingers on evil so that we wholeheartedly return to the oneness that we truly are once this lesson is truly learned and understood. There are some clues in the religious scriptures pertaining to a creator that once read and followed up upon does point to the undeniable way of understanding that this earth is a construct.. Like in genesis, here,,, https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1 Go to paragraph 6. It will suggest a vault that separates the waters from the waters.. That to me is a clue to follow,,, 500 years ago we used to believe that the earth was flat and covered with a glass dome under the great sea. So.. Why is the sky blue? How come with a zoom lens I can still see a ship 80 miles away without dipping into the earths curvature? There are hundreds of these anomalies in life that we fail to observe believing the answers given to us by others are accurate without even bothering to take the time to veryfy for ourselves , Perhaps we are too busy dealing with a duality.? Working? Or other distractions to take us away from these points?? Obviously,, you have to make your own investigations to really be sure but it only takes observation if you ask yourself the right questions. Yes, I conclude for myself that we do have a creator but not a god,, And it certainly does not have a name as its all an integral part of everything you perceive, Including yourself,, Quantum might be an appropriate word to use when trying to explain where we are and what we are doing... A subject not entirely understood by the !level of human consciousness but we are getting there . We are I believe a construct by a higher consciousness and something one might call god is a construct of the human mind,, |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 23 November 2017 at 1:06am
You can't uness you are up in the sky in a plane. Try it and see that you are wrong before spouting shuch wrong drivel.
Verrify it and come back.
No, all quantum means is the smallest possible measurement. You do not understand this idea. Stop spouting off on things you have no idea about.
Spouting drivel will get you nowhere. |
Posted By: Tobias
Date Posted: 02 December 2017 at 12:49am
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Instead of giving me an opinion,, please try to say something tangeable..
Quantum physics , among many other things has given us the ability to know that photons can be in different places at the same time,, And that they behave in a different way whilst under observation.... To me, this goes a long way towards the understanding that we are all living in an energy field of perceptions, Not just a physical world,, I would suggest that you actually research quantum physics and take a look at the double slot experiment to give you a start on the path of true learning. I would urge you to be objective and not go on blind faith of the word of another, Yes,,, I can see a ship 80 miles away with my nikkon zoom lens,,, its very true,, I suggest you get a good zoom lens and go to the beach instead of being opinionated behind a computer screen. So anyway,,, I have put a link on here that takes you to a two hour documentary that will pose some questions as to the integrity of the heliocentric model earth.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fbQQBzXAQ1Q Or if you can't be bothered to expand your possibilities you can see this one instead.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=5949s&v=WraFrT0XhgE Once again,, please don't return to me with just opinions about me or the earth , Try to be more tangent and less of a schoolboy there's a good chap. Have a lovely day.. 😉 |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 2:20am
I understand far more physics than you do. I understand, for example, where the double slot effect is used industrially. Do you?
You have not actually done this. If you did you would find that you cannot see a ship 80 miles away from the beach. If you have used your zoom lens from the beach how did you know that the ship was so far away?
Life is too short to watch any 2 hour video of drivel. If you cannot explain it then I will not watch it. I have explained my points to you in plain terms. You have responded by wandering all over the place and hoping I will go away. Unlucky. |
Posted By: Tobias
Date Posted: 09 December 2017 at 5:06am
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Firstly,, I would suggest you get a good zoom lens or telescope and scan the horizon of the sea.. Yes I have done this and it is annoying to me that someone is saying it is not so... I determined the distance within a margin of error by the degree of zoom used on the equipment...
Yes, wave and particle interference can be used to measure prisms and testing optical surfaces that can be found in lenses for example,,, Truly a wonderful way to measure with amazing accuracy using the wave of interference. I'm a little disappointed that you chose not to waste two hours out of your life for the informed information I sent to you,,, I can only assume that your mind has been made up from your lifelong indoctrination concerning the round ball so much that you will not entertain possible alternatives.. This is not usually the way of a true physician or scientist. Or for anyone trying to find the truth for that matter. Ego usually gets in the way and makes people blind to anything other than what they have been told by their superiors and teachers throughout life.. I truly feel for you and hope that your curiosity takes you to this seemingly crazy research.. I was the same when first I considered the earth is not a ball, But I had the patience to check.relate.and identify in my mind , Quite a few anomalies and led on from there,, By the way,, I have seen neither point or plain terms coming from you so I don't understand why you wrote that. Actually, The word "Drivel" is a plain term isn't it? I stand corrected... How about trying your hand at a solid point...! I'll tell you what I can do,,,, You or anyone else can ask me any question about the ball earth and why it is so.. Then I will explain why it is not in no uncertain terms with a point, Oh.. Another by the way,,, Why do you consider me to be unlucky because you have not gone away??? I'm still waiting for you to give me a good and reasonable debate without the use of words like drivel. I'm am beginning to think that your just a kid sitting in his underpants in his bedroom playing on the computer. Try prove me wrong... |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 20 December 2017 at 12:57am
@Tobias
Have you ever seen a solar/lunar eclipse ? Why is the shadow it forms round ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 20 December 2017 at 2:52am
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Go to the white cliffs of Dover. Stand on them with your zoom lense. Take a photo of France. Walk to the bottom of the cliffs. Stand on the beach. Take a photo in the same direction. You will not see france. The sea is in the way. To test if the earth is spinning; Get a heavy ball bearing suspended on a thin thread in a windless tall space. Lower it to a sand tray on the floor so you can mark the position directly below the hook it is suspended from. Raise the ball to the heighest point that it can be whislt still suspended from the hook and not pushed sideways at all. You will have to calm the ball down as raising it will cause it to swing sideways. Cut the string with a candle flame or lighter. So as to not imaprt and sideways motion. The ball will fall down and hit the sand tray at a point east of the point directly below it's start position. This is because the ceiling is moving eastwards quicker than the floor is. |
Posted By: Tobias
Date Posted: 20 December 2017 at 10:37pm
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Actually.. Looking back on our conversation is making me see that I'm talking to a mindless zombie that can only use the word "Drivel" as some kind of of response to a rational argument... Its obvious to me that your either a little kid sitting in his underpants in his bedroom passing time away, or you are a government shill.. You have exercised no common sense or real reasoning,, just your favorite little word,,,, "Drivel"...
Its also becoming obvious that this site does not have the collective IQ of an aardvark that I have seen so far.. |
Posted By: Tobias
Date Posted: 20 December 2017 at 10:45pm
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The Foucault theory was disproved years ago...
Swinging balls is not an answer.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SkcMK94yw As for dover cliffs,,, try it for yourself on a clear day... France will be there in your lens, you may lose some land mass through visual distortion given the average weather in that area but you will still see land. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 22 December 2017 at 1:07am
If you stand on the beach it will not be there. You have not done as you say and tested this. That you will dismiss the fact that a droped object does not land directly below it as quickly as you do makes it plain that you are unwilling to think. It must be very crippling to restrict your thinking because of a desperate need for identity. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 24 December 2017 at 9:55am
Your inability to reply to any of my challenges is obvious. All you do is jump to the next drivel position. |
Posted By: Tobias
Date Posted: 26 December 2017 at 8:41pm
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OK,, here's the point,,,
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aPNUzxKok0c Your wasting my time and patience with your petty ways of dealing with a losing debate. Face it,,, you have been lied to all of your childish life.. Once you come to terms with that, vou can reboot your undernourished brain. Its flat,, deal with it.... |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 31 December 2017 at 11:58am
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@Tobias
You haven't replied to http://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29692&PID=213814#213814 - my post yet. And no, I will not watch any video (promised !). If you can't explain it, you haven't understood it. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 01 January 2018 at 4:20am
If you cnnot explain it then you have no clue about it. The flight time from London to New York is 8 hours 5 minutes and the flight time for the same aircraft between Sydney to Johannesburg is 14 hours then that will only work on a spherical world. If you measure the distance on a polar (north) projection it will not work. If you measure the distance on a normal map then the distances East to West around the equator are compressed compared with the distances further North and South. To the rest of the Islamic readers here, Why do you not jump in? Why do you allow this person to represent your views? |
Posted By: akthus
Date Posted: 11 March 2018 at 1:09am
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To me all religions are an act of faith. To be a Muslim you are taking Muhammed’s Word that he actually saw an angel and it gave him the words in the Quran. Yet those who do not believe will say he made the Quran up. There is no evidence or proof at all to verify that Muhammad was God’s messenger because the only one saying he is is the Quran and himself. |
Posted By: Tobias
Date Posted: 12 March 2018 at 3:17am
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Yes,,, That is the point,,, Religions are based purely upon faith,, Once we realise just how corrupt the leaders of this world actually are, And how long they have been operating,, (at least since the time of summaria,). One can see the possibilities that religion has been fabricated by these entities,, Even the word "Government" translates to mind control.. There is I believe,,, No such thing as god,, But there is our creator,, There's a difference,, Religions try to impose gods upon us to which we are asked to worship.. I really do not believe that this is how our world was intended,, We can see from history that religions have only caused war, suffering and oppression that continues stronger than ever today. I have studied both Qu-Ran and the christian bible,, They both have the same story as does many other religions,, Although I see spatterings of truth within the pages,, For instance, The firmament in genesis,, The symbolic snake in the garden of eden etc. We have come to a point in history where its time that every living soul in this world should re-evaluate their surroundings with objectivity and realise we should ALL be having a care for each other,, One and all.. Not some mysterious and mythical god with dubious origins, |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 12 March 2018 at 4:21pm
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Tobias, s l o w l y step away from the internet . . . ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 13 March 2018 at 2:41pm
@Aktus
I'd say there are more possibilities. Clearly, the Quran is man made, but I would not suspect Muhammad of having it "freely invented". I would guess it was more of a religious ecstasy. There have been many cases of this kind in history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata" rel="nofollow - like these ones for example. (The case of Saint Francis of Assisi is particularly inspiring) Joseph Smith (yeah, the Mormons) belongs to the same category: Mysteriously sounding but substanceless messages (sure, directly from God), the "capturing" and reinterpretation of (a) dominant, widespread religion, an (of course) "altruistic attitude" towards (many) woman, military action and the absolute will to seize political power, the claim to hold the ultimate truth and the inability to coordinate his own succession. The list of similarities is long and I could produce many more cases of this kind if you'd ask me. Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |