Flat Earth and the Geocentric Universe
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Topic: Flat Earth and the Geocentric Universe
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: Flat Earth and the Geocentric Universe
Date Posted: 06 June 2014 at 3:27am
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I am a simpleton when it comes to science, however I am now becoming more convinced by the argument for flat earth and geocentric universe. From a religious point of view this makes sense to me as it comforts me to believe that God Almighty made the Earth for us and the Universe revolves around us (Earth). Imagine if everything we've been taught at school was wrong or even a deliberate lie. If so then we need to re-define our own world. The following verses from the Qur'an spring to mind. Sahih International And it is He who created
the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly
bodies] in an orbit are swimming. 21:33
It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming. 30:40 |
Replies:
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 06 June 2014 at 4:28am
You're not alone: http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ - Flat_Earth
Airmano BTW: The verse 30:40 you quote is in reality 36:40 |
Imagine if everything we've been taught at school was wrong or even a deliberate lie.Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 06 June 2014 at 4:36am
Imagine if everything you've been taught in the mosque was wrong or even a deliberate lie. "And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out." (51:48) "Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea..." (18:86) For a few thousand dollars you can travel around the world and see for yourself that the earth is a sphere, not "spread out" (i.e. flat); and that there is no "black sea" into which the sun sets. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 June 2014 at 4:50am
How would a flat earth and a geocentric universe bring comfort to you as a Muslim? How would the two verses you posted support your position? |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 06 June 2014 at 11:54am
Verse 51:48 simply means that the earth is spacious and not flat as per your understanding which is wrong. As for 18:86 it is not literal, I'll let you figure it out. You've just proven that you don't understand a word of the Qur'an. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 06 June 2014 at 12:21pm
Just a personal preference. I'd like to think that the earth is the centre of the universe and that everything else revolves around us. Thus making us and the earth special. As a Christian you must know that for centuries Christians have believed that the earth is flat and the universe revolves around it. I quoted the above two verses from the Qura'n because it tells me that everything else but the earth is swimming meaning moving and the earth is stationary. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 06 June 2014 at 3:56pm
| Wow, Abu Loren, you are not going done this road for real are you? You are speaking metaphorically of course. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 June 2014 at 8:24pm
I see. You are stating your personal view though, and not what the Quran teaches. Would that be a correct understanding?
Many not only believed that, but some also killed people for believing differently. I don't believe that those who falsely believed such ideas were non-believers, but those who murdered others for not agreeing certainly were, even if they believed themselves to be followers of Christ.
I just read the two verses. The say that the sun, moon, other things in space move around the earth. I don't see them stating that the earth is stationary. I don't see any verse that says that. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 3:47am
Yeah sure I'd like to go down this road and see where it leads. LOL. |
Posted By: kingkory
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 6:35am
| Flat earth ?...wont even get into that. As I agree the lord almighty has given us life and this wonderful planet we call earth...How does a flat earth theory impose any type of position on preferred religion ? Unless that is you worship pagan Viking gods |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 8:09am
Every translation I've read says "spread" or "spread out".
Why just that particular verse? Imagine if everything in the Quran was not literal.
I know the difference between spread out flat and rolled up in a ball. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 8:11am
Careful Abu. I've been down that road. I know where it leads.  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Quranexplorer
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 12:01pm
Masha Allah! How precisely Allah talks about people like you in Quran: Al-E-Imran 3:7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. 51:48 refers to the wide area of earth. "spread out" means extending in surface area. There is no mention of any shape here. An area could be spread in any shape - I don't know where you get the idea of "flat". 18:86 refers to a specific incident from the episode of Dhu'l-Qarneyn and to indicate a specific location where he observes the sunset in a dark tempestuous sea - what do you see so peculiar in someone close to the seashore observing the sunset in a dark tempestuous sea? |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 3:02pm
| It leads to believing things that simply make us feel better, like dealing with the fear of death and mortality. As humans we have an inborn fear of death and dying so we have created religion and God to answer those fears. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 3:24pm
If we "created" religion and God, then who created us? |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 4:05pm
| Not knowing where we came from doesn't equate to our coming from God. You should study up on the "God of the Gaps" argument and find out why it's the very definition of a logical fallacy. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 4:09pm
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I believe God created humanity. I believe everything that is natural came from something else, nothing came out of nothingness. God transcends our nature, so it would make sense that Someone who is eternal and beyond our comprehension would create the natural world. If you do not believe in God's existence, then where did life come from? Where did the natural world come from? |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 4:31pm
| I'll try again, not knowing where the natural world started or it's origin point does not equate to knowing that it came from God. Your believing it doesn't make it so. Evidence would be a good place to start. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 4:35pm
TG12345
Airmano |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 07 June 2014 at 10:13pm
If God is beyond our comprehension, then saying that the natural world came from God is equivalent to saying that where the natural world came from is beyond our comprehension. God is not an explanation for anything. It is an admission of ignorance, and there is no shame in that; but it is also a declaration that no further explanation is required or should be sought, which is a capitulation to ignorance -- and that is shameful. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 June 2014 at 3:41am
Actually Muslims do not fear death, they welcome it, because it gives a chance for the Muslim to spend eternity with his Creator if He has Mercy makes one a resident of Paradise. You'd like to think so because your mind cannot grasp the reality that God Almighty created everything and He sends revelations to mankind when they err and to explain the order of things. But I submit that believing is just that a belief. But having said that if you are looking for evidence then it's all around us. For example, this universe we live in. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 June 2014 at 4:03am
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OK now I'm going to be real controversial here. In the Qur'an verse 18:47 tells us that the mountains will be removed on the last day and the earth will become a level plain or prominent. This makes sense if the earth is flat. On Judgment Day every human being will stand in rows in front of God Almighty. It is a bit silly if they all stand on a globe doesn't it? Muhsin Khan And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind. 18:47 Also I don't believe in gravity. It's just a made up word and sounds good to explain things we don't understand. All small object will be 'attracted' to a bigger entity, so every small thing will fall towards the big object. Consider the following verse from the Qur'an 16:79 Sahih International Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up except Allah . Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. 16:79 Tasfir تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn { أَلَمْ يَرَوْاْ إِلَىٰ ٱلطَّيْرِ مُسَخَّرَٰتٍ فِي جَوِّ ٱلسَّمَآءِ مَا يُمْسِكُهُنَّ إِلاَّ ٱللَّهُ إِنَّ فِي ذٰلِكَ لأَيٰتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ } Have they not observed the birds [how they are] made subservient, disposed to [be able to] fly, in the air of heaven?, that is, in the air between the heaven and the earth. Nothing holds them, when they draw in their wings or open them, lest they fall, except God, by His power. Indeed in that there are signs for a people who believe, [the signs] which are that they have been created in a way that enables them to fly, as well as the creation of the air in such a way that it allows for flight, and the holding of them [up in the air so that they do not fall]. If you've ever looked at a bird closely then you would have seen that the wings of the birds are just feathers. They do not have the strength to carry the body weight of these birds. It is only by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'alas Will that they fly. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 June 2014 at 4:07am
You have to read the Qur'an in context otherwise you just cannot understand it. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 June 2014 at 4:14am
I really feel sorry for you. God Almighty is not beyond our comprehension because we have His revelations which tells us Who He is and what He wants. Understanding this, then it is very easy to see that He made the natural world for us. Our Universe is in perfect harmony because He wills it. Consider this scenario. You are happily swimming in the sea and your family is happily playing at the sea shore. Suddenly there is a 100 feet wave coming towards you without any warning. This is what happens in a chaotic world. Consider also the calmness of the sea and the shore line where the sea does not transgress. It is all in perfect harmony, otherwise life would be impossible in this planet. Let me also add this while we are on this subject. I believe that you would not be able to find another 'earth like' planet anywhere. This is because planet earth is special as it is the one we have been granted by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. Thus life would also be hard to find outside our Solar System. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 08 June 2014 at 8:38am
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Welcome, everyone, to Abu Loren's world where the planet is flat, gravity does not exist and large waves that kill people never occur.
Abu Loren, saying that finding life outside our Solar System is "hard" is like saying nothing so maybe just stick with the nothing. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 June 2014 at 10:43am
Abu Loren, is this some kind of a joke? Are you seriously stating that the Quran is implying that the earth is flat? What is your game? I'm not a Muslim, and I even I know that the Quran does not teach a flat earth or a geocentric universe. This is the kind of garbage that Robert Spencer would come up with. It makes a mockery of your faith. This is coming from someone who doesn't believe Islam is from God in the first place. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 08 June 2014 at 8:13pm
If God is not beyond our comprehension, then please tell me how He (allegedly) made the natural world. If you can't answer that, then simply saying "God did it" accomplishes nothing more than giving a name to our ignorance.
Okay, I'm mystified. Is this a chaotic world, or is it in perfect harmony?
Yes, this planet is the one we have been granted; but where does it say that there aren't other beings that were granted other worlds? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 08 June 2014 at 8:30pm
On the contrary, any impartial reading of the Quran would conclude that Muhammad did indeed believe the earth was flat and at the centre of the universe. I know most modern Muslims don't believe that, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that Muhammad did. It was a fairly common belief at the time -- not among the more educated classes, but then Muhammad was not a literate man. What I don't understand is why Abu rejects a literal interpretation of the verses I quoted, and then goes on to reach roughly the same conclusions based on other verses.  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 June 2014 at 3:08am
LOL yep my world is really weird and wonderful. All I'm asking people here is to throw out everything that you've been taught at school and look at the world and it's surroundings with a new perspective. What we've been taught at school may have been with the best of intentions but it could all be wrong. Just sayin............. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 June 2014 at 3:22am
Mr. Ron He tells us how He made the natural world. Please go and re-read the Qur'an for the answers. Let me just simplify it for you. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala said "Be" and it was. Yep God Almighty really did it. :)
This is not a chaotic world but on the contrary. Everything is in perfect harmony because Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala Wills it. In a chaotic world life would not be possible. He tells us in the Qur'an that it is He who created the heavens and the earth and set the balance (meaning the requirements for life to exist).
I only go by the Qur'an and the Hadiths. As far as these are concerned the only created beings are the angels, jinn and human beings (not counting the animal and the plant and bacteria etc). It's my BELIEF that life would not be found elsewhere because life only exists here on earth. We are special and unique. Allahu Akbar! |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 June 2014 at 4:38am
That doesn't help at all. How could He say anything with no air or anything else to carry the sound waves? And how could a word make a world?
You may recall that in 2004 a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake_and_tsunami - tsunami in the Indian Ocean killed 230,000 people. That was "perfect harmony"?
As far as I know, the Quran does not mention bacteria, and yet they are by far the most abundant form of life on this planet. Is it also your belief that bacteria don't exist? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 June 2014 at 4:59am
Unless of course we are talking about the situation of Muslims in the Arctic Circle during Ramadan. Since the Quran and hadiths prescribe rules for fasting that are impossible for them to follow, you appeal to 20th century scholars- who understandably tell them it is necessary to change what you believe God prescribed for them in His book. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 09 June 2014 at 7:57am
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If the Quran stated:
"The moon is a cube" - Would you believe it ? |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 June 2014 at 11:10am
R U serious?
That was a once in a lifetime event caused by Plate Tectonics. In a chaotic world multiply that by a 100 and as a daily occurrence. Actually if you take away the oceans and water then you have no life on earth. The water cycle and the oceans are maintained perfectly by God Almighty. A slight variation in the environments and water would not be available on earth.
The Qur'an doesn't mention many things of this world or the Universe in which we live in. The Qur'an is a Mercy to us and it only has what we essentially need for salvation or to seek it. If the Qur'an goes into every minute detail then it would be silly, wouldn't it? On that note God can tell us every single thing that has happened since creation, but how would that help us? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 June 2014 at 6:20pm
The question is, are you serious? Your "explanation" is not just incomprehensible, it's ridiculous. What does it even mean to say that God "spoke", before there was a universe in which the sound of his voice could propagate? And how could a word cause a universe to come into existence?
A perfect world would mean zero times in a lifetime. A perfect God would be more powerful than plate tectonics. What you're describing is an imperfect world, and a weak, imperfect god.
I agree, but you just finished saying that you don't believe in extraterrestrial life because the Quran doesn't mention it. Maybe you want to rethink that?
I think mentioning bacteria, and in particular pathogenic bacteria, would have been a considerable help. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 3:21am
This is where the stopidity of the non-believers come in. Are you saying that God Almighty is also stoopid? |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 3:22am
I'm sorry but I don't have the time nor the patience to explain endless times the same old story. The best I can do however is to pray that Allah Subhana Wa Taa'ala guides you to His Truth. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 4:33am
If the best you've got is the "same old story", then it's just as well. Never mind praying for me, Abu. Ask your God why He instructed you to clean your hands by rubbing them in dirt, but didn't think to give you a recipe for penicillin. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 4:48am
The only person on this thread who has been accusing God of being "stoopid" is you. As a Muslim, who claims that the Quran was written by God, you have said that the Quran states that the earth is stationary and does not move. "I quoted the above two verses from the Qura'n because it tells me that everything else but the earth is swimming meaning moving and the earth is stationary." http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29605&PN=1 You are accusing God of being ignorant about His own creation. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 5:40am
Wow, I would have prefered that you answer my question instead of phantasizing over disbelievers:
I guess your logic goes like this: Rule A) "The Quran is always right" Rule B) "If evidence contradicting the Quran is found, Rule A) automatically applies". Airmano |
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 9:40am
|
Believe it or not, the idea of a flat Earth and/or geocentric Earth seems to be gaining popularity among certain groups of muslims. I have noticed a few threads on various websites in the past year on so.
For example, one forum I check out once in a while can be found at Islamicawakening.com. This is the website used by extreme fanatical Sunni muslims, many of whom support the actions of (for example) Boko Harum in Nigeria and ISIS in Syria and Iraq (ISIS is the group who have executed muslim males for the "crime" of carrying cigarettes, and executed a young girl who was found guilty of adultery because she had a facebook account). Those of you who are so inclined can check out the following thread: http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f15/the-belief-of-the-sun-orbiting-earth-69093/ - The Belief of the Sun Orbiting the Earth |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 11:36am
If I remember correctly I think I called you a waste of space and by looking at your posts I was right. :) |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 12:14pm
If one or two Muslims support the actions of fanatics then whole the whole Muslim world supports them? |
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 12:42pm
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Abu Loren wrote: one or two Muslims support the actions of fanatics then whole the whole Muslim world supports them?
Obviously, more than one or two Muslims are involved. ISIS today took control of the city of Mosul and now control virtually all of the Iraqi province of Nineveh. The rout was apparently so bad that many of the retreating members of the Iraqi army and police force abandoned their weapons and uniforms and fled in civilian clothing. However, none of this is relevant to the point I was making. My point was this: Consider the following two subsets of muslims: (1) Muslims who support fanatical Sunni organizations such as ISIS, and (2) Muslims who believe the Earth is the centre of the universe. Interestingly, to a very large degree, these two subsets seem to include the same muslims (my theory as to why this is true: fanatical muslims such as members of ISIS insist that every hadith be interpreted literally. Some hadith seem to say that the Earth is the center of the universe. Therefore, fanatical muslims tend to believe in the geocentric model of the universe.) |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 4:09pm
All I can say is  !------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 7:12pm
However, on this forum we see examples of Muslims who believe that the earth is the centre of the universe... and yet they are not extremists who support terrorist groups. Abu Loren is one such example. He has and continues to speak out against extremism and terrorism in the name of Islam, and I commend him for this. I wish more Christians denounced war and imperialism that is being waged by people who are claiming to be followers of Jesus. Abu Loren often does act like a jerk and can be very rude and hostile- especially when he loses at a debate- but he does not condone extremist violence. It isn't fair to associate Muslims who have false notions about the world with Muslims who blow up and torture and kill innocent people. This makes as much sense as associating white kids with school shooters, since most school shooters have been caucasian teenagers. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 4:35am
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Experiments have been performed firing cannons at all cardinal directions to check for earth's rotation. If the earth was really spinning as the Heliocentric model suggests then the East firing cannon ball should fall significantly farther than all others and the West firing cannon ball should fall significantly closer than all others. In actual fact, however, regardless of which direction one fires a cannon North , South, East or West the distance covered is always the same. By removing Earth from the motionless center of the Universe these dark philosophers ( Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, Einstein) have moved us physically and metaphorically from a place of supreme importance to one of complete nihilistic indifference.If the Earth is at the centre of the Universe then idea of God, creation and the purpose of human existence are resplendent. But if the Earth is one of billions of planets revolving around billions of stars in billions of galaxies , then idea of God, creation and a specific purpose of Earth and human existence become highly implausible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPedhmjjZMw |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 4:58am
Abu Loren:
Welcome to agnostic Wonderland ! Airmano |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 6:40am
|
Once again, you've got to be kidding, right. You need to take a class on dynamics of motion. Relative acceleration and velocity can appear like magic to anyone ignorant of the concept.
If you have some study in mind, done with cannon balls in the last several hundred year, I'd like to read about it because the effects of a spinning earth on projectile motion are well, by which I mean totally, understood. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 11:53am
This guy should receive the Nobel Prize just for this sentence alone. :) |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 5:26pm
The earth rotates in an easterly direction with a velocity at the equator of about 1500 feet per second (relative to a non-rotating inertial frame of reference). For argument's sake, lets assume that the muzzle velocity of a cannon is also 1500 fps. Let's also assume the cannon ball hits the ground after one second, with a range of 1500 feet. The eastern cannon ball has a total velocity of (1500+1500=) 3000 fps, so it will travel 3000 feet in a second -- but the earth will also have travelled 1500 feet in that second, so the ball will land (3000-1500=) 1500 feet away from the cannon. The western cannon ball will have a net velocity of 0 fps, i.e., from the point of view of the non-rotating frame of reference it will fall straight down from the cannon. But meanwhile the earth is moving at 1500 fps, so by the time the ball lands the cannon will be 1500 feet away. Same distance.
Smartest thing you've said so far.  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 8:34pm
By the way, if you're quoting someone else please make that clear. Otherwise it's plagiarism. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 June 2014 at 3:26am
U f00l I said this guy..... meaning not me. You are a despicable person Ron Webb. Get God into your life, perhaps that will make you a better human being In Shaa Allah. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 June 2014 at 4:11am
I didn't say it. I gave a link to Youtube, so you would know who said it. :) |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 June 2014 at 7:44pm
Not in the original post, you didn't. When your subesquent post mentioned "this guy" I wondered at first why you were awarding yourself a Nobel Prize. It wasn't until I did a bit of surfing that I realized they weren't your words.
Giving a link does not make it clear that you are quoting from that link. If you're going to quote someone, use quotation marks. I realize punctuation is going out of fashion these days, but they still have their uses. Anyway, the link doesn't tell me who said it. That YouTube video also plagiarizes the quote without mentioning its source. The actual source appears to be http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2011/11/earth-is-not-moving.html - Eric Dubay , unless he also stole it from somebody else. It's sad that nobody seems to understand the necessity of giving proper credit anymore.
No I'm not, and neither are you. You just play one on the Internet. Seriously, I just spent a fair amount of time researching your http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29691&PN=1 - Moon question and responding to it in great detail and (I thought) with a fair amount of restraint. I'm not asking for gratitude, but you might at least recognize when people are trying to be helpful.
No thanks. As Mr. Dubay said, once you understand that the Earth is just one of quintillions (not just billions) of planets orbiting quintillions of stars, the idea of God (at least in the Abrahamic sense) becomes highly implausible. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 14 June 2014 at 3:51am
I don't know who Eric Dubay is nor do I care. With all of your scientific advances (which is not much) you scientific types still haven't found an earth like planet. I 'll tell you the reason why that is. It's because you will never find one because this planet we live is unique. It is the only planet in the Universe with life. This is because it is Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala who sustains life here and when He Wills it will all end. The earth really is special. In the Qur'an in almost every page you will find the statement " It is He who made the heavens and the earth". By mentioning the earth along with the heavens makes it a really special place. You can laugh all you want as an unbeliever, but what's your best argument? None. Find me an earth like planet with water then we can talk. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 14 June 2014 at 4:15am
Abu Loren
Not true ! Here's one: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27054366 - Eartlike Planets . This is sure just the beginning, since we are just about to develop the necessary instrumentation to find [much] more earth-like planets in the near future. And what is your best argument ? The Quran, wow ! Airmano |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 June 2014 at 8:31pm
 You don't know? He's the guy you quoted. You don't care? He's the guy you think should receive the Nobel Prize for that sentence.
There are http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/billions-of-earth-like-planets-in-milky-way-study-1.2356237 - billions of earth-like planets in our galaxy alone -- which is just one of billions of other galaxies. They are extremely difficult to find, but see below.
No, our best argument is based on the data from the Kepler telescope, as explained in the above link. Your best argument, by contrast, is a collection of uncorroborated stories told by a guy more than a thousand years ago.
Our best example so far is http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/astronomers-discover-most-earth-like-planet-ever-found-1.1780739 - Kepler-186f , but we will be processing the Kepler data for years to come, so no doubt there will be many others. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 15 June 2014 at 3:37am
|
I bet you guys with everything that I have (which isn't much) that you will NEVER find an earth like planet with flowing water and life. The reason? Because we are special and Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala made it that way. :) Keep reading those science books those *****s the professors wrote and you will certainly live in hope. Let's not beat around the bush, there is only ONE planet in the universe with life and that planet is the one you are living in. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 15 June 2014 at 12:50pm
If you have your science text book under your arm then you might find this video shocking! :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd4VHcFY1Vg |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 June 2014 at 1:43pm
So why do you suppose Allah made all those quintillions of planets, and then only put life on a single one? Seems like such a waste... ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 June 2014 at 2:15pm
More likely I would find it a total waste of time. I generally don't bother with YouTube links. Why should I watch this one? What's it about? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 16 June 2014 at 12:10pm
My answer is going to shock you so hold on to your hats and quickly go and grab your science books written by all those eediots all those years ago. There isn't quintillions of planets. There is just one planet in the universe and that one is the one you are now living in. Created by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala maker of heavens and the earth, He created it for human beings, jinn and all the other life forms to live in. By the way do a search in the Qur'an for "all living things are made from water". The planets as we know them today we inherited them from pagan Greeks and Romans whom made these planets their gods. Wait just a minute! I can hear you say. What about all those sightings from telescopes and all those pictures of planets? Well the nearest "evidence" you have of these planets are when you look at the sun and something passes in front of it. So you say it must be planets. Wrong. They are just huge asteroids left over from the asteroid belt or rather 'strayed' over from their original trajectory. As for the pictures, they are the result of of the greatest CGI images made in human history from those *****s at NASA. They the master deceivers who are working with satan to facilitate the impending arrival of Ad Dajjal or the Anti-Christ. Still laughing? Good. So where can one find the truth? From the scriptures sent down to mankind from our Creator who knows. Both in the Bible and in the Qur'an there are mention of earth. sun. moon and stars but NO planets. Why not? Because they do not exist. Why do we or anybody need other planets? There is life only on this planet outside of heaven. And only the angels live there presently, and everything else lives right here on planet earth. The stars by the way are not other suns similar to ours but very very far away. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us in the Qur'an that He made the stars as adornment for us and to use them as a point of direction when travelling. Let me go even further by saying that there are no galaxies no quasars, no pulsars and no other invented rubbish that we are forced to believe in by the deceivers. So when you filter it down the Universe looks like this. There is the earth right smack in the middle with the sun, the moon and the stars orbiting the earth. That's it! That's our Universe. The only thing I can't tell you is how large the Universe is. All thanks and praise to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala Lord of the worlds who made the heavens and the earth. Allahu Akbar! |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 June 2014 at 5:35pm
Been there, done that. The only remarkable thing is that anyone would find such a statement remarkable. Muhammad lived in a desert, for goodness' sake! Of course he knew how important water is to life!
No, the nearest evidence of planets is when I look up at the sky at night and I see them. I've been fascinated by the planets, and observing them with my own eyes, since I was a kid.
What is the difference between a huge asteroid and a planet?
NASA??? For a few hundred dollars you can buy your own telescope and see the planets for yourself. Or contact the http://www.dubaiastronomy.com/ - Dubai Astronomy Group , and I'm sure someone will he happy to let you look through their telescope. We've been able to see good images of the planets for hundreds of years. We've studied them and calculated their orbits with great precision long before NASA existed.
How do you know that the scriptures are the truth?
Which is ridiculous because most of the stars are not even visible to the naked eye.
Again, get yourself a decent telescope and you can see plenty of galaxies for yourself. The Magellanic Clouds are galaxies that you can see with the naked eye. Unfortunately Sharjah is still a bit too far north to see them, but if you ever get a chance to travel even a few hundred miles south they should be visible on the horizon under good conditions. Quasars and pulsars are more esoteric, and you won't be able to observe them for yourself. But honestly, why would anybody make them up? The existence of quasars and pulsars in no way conflicts with Islam or any othe religion as far as I know. Are you just inventing conspiracies for their own sake?
If you watch Venus for a couple of years, you can actually see it orbiting the sun. It's never more than about 45 degrees away from it, and it moves back and forth from one side to the other. Just like it's orbiting it. You like to talk about "deceivers". Let me suggest to you that if the planets don't orbit the sun, then Allah must be the greatest master deceiver of them all, to have designed a solar system where the planets look exactly like they do, and whose positions can be calculated to within a tiny fraction of a degree by assuming that they do. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 17 June 2014 at 3:11am
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Ron Webb you've been flirting with upsetting Muslims on this forum for a while now. If you are man enough come out and say it like a man, list everything that you think is wrong is Islam. Stop hiding behind the computer. You are more than despicable but I don't know the word for it so I won't call you it. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 17 June 2014 at 3:53am
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More bad news for the scientific types here. But before you read it quickly go and grab your science books. Mankind has been shrinking in size since the creation of Adam (Alayhi Salaam). Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has been destroying nations and people for their transgressions thought human history. He tells us in the Qur'an that He creates a new creation after the former has been destroyed. Two scenarios 1) In the Great Flood of Prophet Nuh (Alayhi Salaam) many species on the earth has been destroyed. There is evidence from the Bible that dinosaurs lived side by side with humans, so we can deduce from this that these creatures were destroyed in the Flood. http://www.holybible.com/resources/KJV_DFND/index.php?Book=67&mode=3&BookTitle=Job - Job / 441:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? 41:2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn? 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever? 41:5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens? 41:6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants? 41:7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears? 41:8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more. 41:9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him? 41:10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
Leviathan was evidently the greatest of the marine reptiles, or dinosaurs, something like a plesiosaur, perhaps, although modern commentators tend to call it a crocodile. Isaiah says that leviathan was "the dragon that is in the sea" (Isaiah 27:1), and the psalmist said that leviathan "played" in the "great and wide sea" (Psalm 104:25,26). Source: 2) Allah Subhana Wa Taa'ala also destroyed the people of Thamud, they are said to be over eight feet tall. Therefore, we as human beings are the final creation until the Last Day. Something else to consider also from the book of Job. 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. 26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them. 26:9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it. 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end. 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. 26:12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 June 2014 at 10:25am
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"Being a man" doesn't mean being undiplomatic or provocative. I say what I need to say to make myself understood, but I don't wish to upset anyone. Not even you.
Stop hiding behind ad hominems. They only highlight the fact that you have nothing substantive to say.
I stand by my opinion that both of us are sincere and genuinely good people, one of whom (I'll let you decide which one ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
) is being led astray by false teachings.Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 18 June 2014 at 4:00am
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Asteroids and Meteors We are told by scientists that there are billions of Asteroids and meteors traveling throughout the Solar System and the Universe. If that is the case then statistically the earth should be bombarded with these entities but we hardly ever notice them. Why? One reason could be that we have been lied to. The other reason that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is protecting the earth because nothing happens without His Will. Allahu Akbar! |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 18 June 2014 at 4:49am
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The real reason is that (almost) all celestial bodies are tied to a sun (planets) or to planets themselves (moons) - simply by gravitation. Our earth is not floating around freely (in the universe) either, otherwise I can assure you that it would get very cold very quickly - even at your place.
What you say is however not completely out of any logic: At the beginning of our solar system the earth (and other planets) were indeed heavily bombarded by comets. Over the billions of years of existence (of our solar system) most of these object have been "absorbed" so that there are not many left anymore. The motion and gravitational pull of the planets (and the sun) act(ed) like gigantic vacuum cleaners. The planets of our solar system are tied to their respective orbits (according to the laws of physics which we know very precisely) and they are separated well enough to never collide with each other. Again this separation evolved over time: one thinks that our moon was created after a collision between our old earth and a small planet (or big comet). Again almost all objects on a (potential) collision course have been weeded out over the billions of years. Obviously you can still say "Allah made it [in the end]" - but you can not deny that modern science delivers a much clearer picture on how our solar system evolved than the Quran ever did (and will). Airmano |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 18 June 2014 at 4:03pm
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 19 June 2014 at 2:49am
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With the lack of responses to my claims I will give myself a pat on the back and say "I am right".
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 June 2014 at 4:36am
Lack of responses?? Speaking of lack of responses, please reread http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29605&PID=185950#185950 - my post on June 16 . ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 June 2014 at 2:54am
Spoken like true student of the Science text books. It's not your fault, it's a generational thing. Whoever decided to implement the current list of Science books into the school/college/uni curriculum it has been taught from fathers to sons for many generations saying that it is Science fact when it is a load of garbage. For example, how do they know that the Sun is billions of miles away? Have they taken a ruler or a tape measure and measured the distance? No. I find it easier to believe the other side of the argument that the sun and moon are not millions of miles away and that they are not gigantic space entities but what we see when we look up is the actual of the Sun and Moon. I can theorize that once we leave the earth orbit the outer space is totally black because the Sun only give light to the earth. It is described as a lamp in the Qur'an. Even non Muslims are now coming to this idea. Seach Youtube. :) |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 20 June 2014 at 3:31am
Abu Loren:
No, I won't search youtube for obviously pointless claims. B.T.W. your religious mate (Quranexplorer) takes exactly the "Lamp" statement as a "Scientific miracle of the Quran", thus accepting implicitly the knowledge we have about the sun today. One of you two must obviously be wrong, although you both base your reasoning on the Quran. Before we argue any further: I think I have to check on how far you are willing to follow any reasoning (outside the Quran). If you take a car to drive from point A to point B (Distance D between the two), at a constant speed C would you agree that the time t it takes from A to be is: t = D/C ? In words: The time it takes to go from A to B is proportional to the distance D (constant speed provided) or expressed in a less mathematical way: "The further away the longer it takes" or, reformulated: "The longer it takes the longer the distance" ? Can you agree on this statement ? Last not least:
Airmano |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 June 2014 at 5:54am
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That's actually a great question. Nowadays we use radar -- not to measure the sun directly, since the surface of the sun doesn't reflect radar signals very well. Instead, we can measure the distance to Venus to within a few meters, and simple trigonometry to calculate the distance to the sun from that measurement. But we've had fairly accurate measurements of the distance to the sun and the planets since long before the invention of radar. The original race to measure the absolute size of the solar system is one of the most exciting stories in the history of science. If you're interested, just Google "transit of Venus", or read the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Venus - Wikipedia article . That's if you're interested; but I don't don't think you really are. You're just trolling, aren't you? I don't think you're even reading my responses. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 21 June 2014 at 4:00am
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I don't know if anybody remembers this but about ten or so years Richard Branson and Virgin Atlantic were developing a 'space plane' in which it will take passeners to space and wait there until the earth rotates and comes to you so that the space craft does not have to move. His intention was for long haul travel say from UK to Australia and far Asia. I think why this venture didn't materialise is that they found out that the eart does NOT spin or somebody shut them up (like the government and/or men in black). |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 June 2014 at 6:17am
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http://www.virgingalactic.com/overview/spaceships/ - Virgin Galactic is expected to begin flights by the end of this year, but nobody ever said that it would simply wait in space for the earth to rotate. That is sheer nonsense.
The energy required to hover for hours above the earth's atmosphere would be enormous. It would be much cheaper and much faster just to fly there in an ordinary airplane. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 3:47am
I don't see your point. The Sun IS a Scientific miracle of the Qur'an. It is not powered by nuclear fission or fusion or any such nonsense. Explain this to me. The time it takes for a flight from Sydney, Australia to London, England is exactly the same as a return flight. Surely if the earth is rotating one of those journey's should be shorter? |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 4:09am
Abu Loren
So, could you please first answer my t = D/C question ? Regards: Airmano Ps: My posts take typically 1-3 days to get accepted by the moderator. So you have to be patient with (the speed of) my replies. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 8:03am
"Scientific miracle" is an oxymoron, a self-contradiction. If the sun is not powered by fusion then where are all those solar neutrinos coming from?
Shorter relative to what? Not relative to the earth, which is how we normally measure things. The time it takes to walk from the front of the plane to the back is exactly the same as the time to walk from the back to the front. Surely if the plane is moving one of those journeys should be shorter? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 8:55pm
| Wow, I've been gone for a week and I come back to find all this forum space wasted trying to convince someone without the barest understanding of knowledge that he should at least look at evidence. Give it up. Don't confuse him with the facts. He's not interested. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 23 June 2014 at 3:27am
LOL schukbob you seem to be a man of reason so can you explain the Sydney to London journey? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 June 2014 at 4:47pm
You asked essentially the same question couple of weeks ago, and http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29605&PID=185821#185821 - I answered it . I suggest you go back and reread my answer (or read it for the first time, more likely). Just substitute airplanes for cannonballs, and adjust the speeds a bit. Same thing. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 June 2014 at 4:57pm
Or as they say, you can't reason a person out of a position he didn't reason himself into. True, but I never write my replies with the expectation of changing the mind of the person who I am addressing. I am hopeful only of influencing any open-minded person who might be reading the discussion. Plus I take a perverse pleasure in seeing just how far down the rabbit hole some people will go... ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 3:47am
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If you want to know how fast the universe is spinning around the earth, all you have to do is look up and see the Sun, Moon and the stars are travelling through space. This is real time. I had the privilege of lying on a beach in Kerala, India and looking up at the star filled sky and watching the universe moving very SLOWLY. :) |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 4:32am
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Slowly? If the earth were stationary and the stars orbiting around it, then even the nearest stars would have to be moving at many times the speed of light. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 12:18pm
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The moral of the story is your eyes do not deceive you. What you SEE is what is real.
We have been given intelligence, understanding, reasoning, common sense. Alhahdulilah! So use it. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 12:25pm
Abu Loren
Airmano |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 3:37pm
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I don't see God. Is God real?
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 27 June 2014 at 3:50am
Sahih International You
can only warn one who follows the message and fears the
Most Merciful unseen.So give him good tidings of forgiveness
and noble reward. 36:11 |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 27 June 2014 at 5:11am
Abu Loren:
Airmano |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 27 June 2014 at 3:30pm
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And you don't even see the irony in that, do you? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |