hassanelagouz wrote: [size="5"] God created the mind and granted it to people, jinn and angels, He made a power in this mind to think, contemplate and infer the meanings from the creatures around him. So the mind is able to know his God and his creator after thinking and contemplating inside himself and in the world around him. Knowing God is something essential in the rational souls and natures. This case doesn�t need dispute because every thing must have a maker, every creature must have a creator and every being must have an originator, these creatures are not found or supported by themselves, because if they are found by themselves then they wouldn�t have changed, but we see them always changing, moving and developing, this refers to that there is a big enormous power beyond this world, this power created it, runs it and controls it so that it runs according to this wonderful astonishing system and accurate computation that we always see by our eyes and feel by our senses. Prophets and messengers came to tell us that this great power is Allah, Glory to Allah the Creator of the heavens, the earth, what is between them and what is inside them and He has the ability to do everything. The noble Koran says about this natural belief and mental authentication: (If indeed you ask them who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law), they will certainly reply, "(Allah)") Surat Al-Ankaboot Verse 61 This is an admission to what is hidden inside the nature of humans about recognizing the Creator Glory to Him, Who controls the sun the moon and all the stars, His majesty is honored.

Assalamualaikum wrt wbt,

Let me first begin with something totally off-topic: please avoid posting in "centered text" as it actually makes reading much more difficult (at least for me) and I'd hate to miss your point due to its formatting.

As to the substance of what you're saying, I don't think it is valid from a logical standpoint. It actually echoes the argument put forth by the Mu'tazzelites in Kalam-philosophy, and shares the same essential flaw.

To break it down:
1.) "All things must have a maker"  <-- premise.
2.) "All creatures must have a creator" <-- premise.

This is the premise that I'd take issue with. While it certainly holds true for most the cases we know of or have observed, it does not follow that it *MUST* hold true for *ALL* cases. In fact, as Muslims, we believe that it does not hold true for Allah.

Allah has no maker. He has existed for all times, and will exist for all times. He is the originator. To argue, then, that creatures must have been created therefore there is a creator invites the follow-up question: "So who created him?" And if you answer "nobody" then that opens you up to "so why can't that also be true for humans?"



I prefer instead to think of belief in Allah as just that -- a belief. One that is correct and valid, and as such will be revealed to the sincere seeking soul, but one that is not black-and-white. If you could prove god existed, then there would be no test of faith. And Allah says in the Qur'an:
"Alladhee khalaqal mauta wal hayaata li yabluwakaum ayyukum ahsanu amalaa" - "The one who created death and life that he might test you in which of you is most-good of deeds."

He says that He will test to see who will believe in Him and who will reject. It is therefore, in my estimation, *PART* of that test that while we might have more reason than not to believe in Him we will not find a "logical proof" of God.




Wallahu 'alam.

-AHMAD