"Mandela's life a lesson to tyrants"...
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Topic: "Mandela's life a lesson to tyrants"...
Posted By: TG12345
Subject: "Mandela's life a lesson to tyrants"...
Date Posted: 06 December 2013 at 5:41pm
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... This true and insightful message was tweeted by none other than one
of the greatest champions of democracy and freedom in the middle east,
Syria's president Bashar Al Assad. When he isn't busy gassing his own people and equipping extremists, in his fight against both "Islamic supremacists" and "Zionist imperialists", the kind man in the mustache likes to reflect about human rights in South Africa. Doubtlessly, he thinks Mandela was a great man, even if not as great as he imagines himself to be. He would like more time to reflect on forgiveness and reconciliation, but he needs to attend to the people in his torture chambers. Some things really can't wait. It is ironic that ever since Mandela died, the ranks of people expressing their support for him are filled partially by those who are doing everything opposite to what he did in the areas of peacebuilding, reconciliation, and justice. Putin, Erdogan, Assad, Netanyahu, Obama, Campbell, Harper and other thugs around the world took a brief respite from directing their murders, occupations and injustices, to pay tribute to a man who stood against everything they stand for. May all people around the world remember Nelson Mandela and be inspired to work for justice. May those who are perpetrating injustices, instead of hypocritically using his name, stop what they are doing and start using their power for good. http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.562187 - Syria's Assad calls Mandela's life a lesson to tyrants - Middle East Israel News | Haaretz |
Replies:
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 December 2013 at 9:08pm
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Interesting
------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 07 December 2013 at 6:58am
| I think "thug" is a completely relative term, which calls for examining justifications and the moral calculus of individuals and state actors. Let us keep in mind that Mandela himself was on the terrorist watch list. In other words, "let him who is without sin, cast the first stone". |
Posted By: Trinity
Date Posted: 07 December 2013 at 7:16am
Yes he was. It wasn't until the South African government under Declerq started negotiating with him about his release did he part from the violent/socialist ideology he had been known for prior to imprisonment. He does indeed deserve our respect for having the fidelity to his country's constitution that made him the statesman he was. |
abuayisha wrote:Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 December 2013 at 11:59am
Greetings abuayisha, I like your point. I have had a similar thought. It is good to remember that Mandela was no saint and not to make him into one... he had his faults... but he did very well to achieve good things for his country. I have been watching the stories about his life, and I would have to say that alot of the credit for what was accomplished goes to his wife Winnie. She kept his spirit alive in the public eye while he was imprisoned. She did not allow him, or his cause, to be forgotten. Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 07 December 2013 at 2:22pm
I do not agree with violence, including the violence that Mandela perpetrated for a while- then renounced and stopped doing. The difference between Mandela and the people mentioned by name in my post is that unlike them, he was not occupying anyone's land and he was fighting for freedom for all his people, not his own political ambitions. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 07 December 2013 at 4:39pm
| Are you suggesting that other than Mandela, all those you mentioned have not engaged in a principled' fight against some form of tyranny? You mentioned Mandela had renounced and stopped violence, but Mandela reached his goal, thus had no further need for "freedom fighting" as a means to an end it could certainly be argued. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 14 December 2013 at 9:20pm
Not only that, I am saying that all of the mentioned above are engaging in tyranny. Mandela occupied neither Palestinian or West Papuan or Afghan or Iraqi or Kurdish land. Comparing him to the bandits mentioned in my original thread would be a futile exercise in my opinion. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 15 December 2013 at 9:24am
| So, in your estimation, as a pacifist, you abhor Mandela's violent tactics, and those who occupy the land of others. Those suffering under thugs and bandits who have occupied their lands, are they justified to look to Mandela as a role model in their struggle against oppression? Didn't Mandela engage in banditry as a means to an end? Could it be that Mandela's larger than life persona creates cognitive dissonance, or a double standard? If not, what about all other "freedom fighters" of the world? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 15 December 2013 at 8:44pm
I am against all violence, but I realize there is a difference between defensive violence and aggressive violence- which in my opinion, includes occupation. Mandela engaged in defensive violence. The leaders I cited in my original post engage in aggressive violence. I am against violence committed for any reason, but would draw a distinction between a Nazi soldier and a resistance fighter. I would also draw a distinction between a Hamas or PKK member who dies repelling a military incursion into his homeland, and an Israeli or Turkish soldier who is taking part in the assault. I can see why Palestinians and Kurds and West Papuans and Chechens and others under occupation would see in Mandela a role model in their struggle. Hopefully in their struggle they will not engage in violence but if they do, the violence will not target the innocent. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 16 December 2013 at 8:28am
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Shouldn't I be surprised that you adopt a nuanced approach to organizations such as those mentioned above, however you seem unwilling to grant the same to states who engage in aggression? Some may get the impression that you are an anarchist.
You said, ..."Chechens and others under occupation would see in Mandela a role model in their struggle. Hopefully in their struggle they will not engage in violence but if they do, the violence will not target the innocent." Violence that doesn't touch the innocent (women, children, elderly, sick) is truly an oxymoron. Would you deem their loss in life, property and security as necessary (collateral damage) for the overall objective? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 7:29pm
Salaam Alaikum.
The armed groups I mentioned are not occupying anyone else's land, and they were formed as a response to the occupation and mistreatment of their peoples. The states listed above engage in occupying the lands of others and mistreating people in their own countries. I am not an anarchist.
I never defend and never have defended or excused violence against civilians. Targeting civilians is the lowest form of violence, and is never justified under any circumstances, or for any reason. While I sympathize with the PKK and Hamas and Chechen and West Papuan guerrillas who are fighting to free their people from occupation and I recognize that the ones who are to blame for these conflicts are the governments of Turkey and Iran and Israel and Russia and Indonesia, whenever the groups mentioned target civilians they engage in cruel and unjustified and cowardly violence, like their oppressors. As a Christian who takes the Bible literally, I believe that the only response that God allows to violence and injustice is peaceful resistance- turning the other cheek and carrying the occupying soldiers load for example are acts of civil disobedience. We need to oppose evil, but we cannot do it with hate. We need to love our enemies, even as we work against their actions. Therefore, I do not support any form of violence or military action. However, I draw a distinction between violence perpetrated in self-defence against other armed enemies, and violence perpetrated for any reason against civilians. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 8:06am
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Yeah, your points are well taken, however, and unfortunately, of the groups you've mentioned, have indeed involved themselves in violence/terrorism against civilians. The video below attempts to draw a distinction between violence and terrorism...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EEvGVvmDSs&feature=youtu.be |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 8:39am
Salaam Alaikum and thank you for sharing the video. I think we agree on everything in this discussion.  |