In Matthew chapter 17 verses 21 is missing from th
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Topic: In Matthew chapter 17 verses 21 is missing from th
Posted By: iec786
Subject: In Matthew chapter 17 verses 21 is missing from th
Date Posted: 31 October 2013 at 11:27am
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In Matthew chapter 17 verses 21 is missing from the NIV and RSV.Why?????
Mark 16: 9, 20 all removed From the NIV and the RSV.WHY. 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. |
Replies:
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 October 2013 at 1:29pm
Greetings ismail, I imagine this would be similar to treatment of hadith's in islam... and that verses deemed to be unreliable, by studied scholars, would be excluded from the scriptures. Also much the same as the 'satanic verses' were not included in the qur'an. Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
iec786 wrote:Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 31 October 2013 at 7:00pm
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/prophet_muhammad__peace_be_upon_him__and_the_satanic_verses |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 13 November 2013 at 9:49pm
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Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 13 November 2013 at 9:54pm
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Hi Caringheart,
Also much the same as the 'satanic verses' were not included in the qur'an.Salaam,Caringheart I do not have a clue as to what satanic verse you talking about?What i know is that not a single verse has been added or removed from the Quran.Unlike the Bible chunks and chunks have been removed and the rest has been mutilated.Would you like me to post some of the mutilated verses. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 November 2013 at 10:28pm
Greetings Ismail, What has happened to you? You used to be an agreeable sort of chap. It is easy enough to do research. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_verses - Satanic Verses are a small number of apparently pagan verses that were alleged to have been temporarily included in the Qu'ran by the Islamic prophet Muhammad, only to be later removed. Narratives derived from hadith involving these verses can be read in, among other places, the biographies of Muhammad by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Waqidi - al-Wāqidī , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Sad - Ibn Sa'd (who was a scribe of Waqidi), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Jarir_al-Tabari - al-Tabarī , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq - Ibn Ishaq (the last as reconstructed by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Guillaume - Alfred Guillaume ). The first use of the expression 'Satanic Verses' is attributed to Sir http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Muir - William Muir (1858)You can also refer to the information in the link kindly provided by abuayisha. Salaam and blessings. I hope things are well with your life, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 18 November 2013 at 9:10am
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Greetings Ismail,
What has happened to you? Hi Caringheart,whatsup. You used to be an agreeable sort of chap. yea lol still the same old man trying to some good out of the little time i have left. [COLOR=BLUE]I urge you to study the Quran.These so called characters Alfred Guillaume), William Muir, al-Wāqidī, Ibn Sa'd , Ibn Ishaq, al-Tabarī .All these people useless if you have the Quraan which is still in its original form,why wast your time with these people when you can read the Quran yourself and then come and tell me iec ths and that,i mean i can go and google garbage and i will find it,but if i have the original why wast my time with less.I read the Bible not what any old fool tells me i love the original.Please check all my quotes they are from the Bible.I just received 2 valuable Bibles The NIV study Bible and an old King James arified Bible.This is how i do my work. Now my sister back to In Matthew chapter 17 verses 21 is missing from the Bible. [/COLOR) Thank you i am fine family still ok i suppose but Ismail is still up to no good pray for this old soul greetings Ismail. 
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 November 2013 at 5:19pm
Greetings Ismail, Here I was thinking you were a young man.  I guess because you not too long ago went on Hajj, and I thought that was a thing most young people did.I understand what you are saying, but I think you are very little informed about the history of your qur'an. Glad you are well, and I will remember you in my prayers tonight. Salaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 21 November 2013 at 7:02am
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Hi iec,
Quote from Post 1: In Matthew chapter 17 verses 21 is missing from the NIV and RSV.Why????? Mark 16: 9, 20 all removed From the NIV and the RSV.WHY. Response: --- There is a footnote in the NKJ that says verse 21 is not included in some. --- Two simple reasons are: --- Because there were different Greek Manuscripts that were studied and, the King James, and New King James, have included all of the verses with a footnote concerning them --- in this way, it is up to the reader to read it, or not read it, --- But it had to be in a Greek Manuscript in order to be numbered and recorded. However, it is good to look at the context and see that this was speaking of casting out evil Spirits and healing in Matthew 17: 14 And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, 15 �Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. 16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.� 17 Then Jesus answered and said, �O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.� 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, �Why could we not cast it out?� 20 So Jesus said to them, �Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, �Move from here to there,� and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.� --- Some may not understand the importance of prayer and fasting in dedication to God, to be involved in healing and deliverance, as in this case, so may have copied a Manuscript, but left that verse off. --- However,this verse is also in Mark 9:29 concerning the same healing. --- See the important lesson that is learned about true Faith, accompanied with prayer and fasting? Next, Mark 16:9-20. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 21 November 2013 at 9:33am
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Hi Caringheart,
If 50 is old then i am finished.  young at heart.Old (50 )people like me also go for Hajj.
My post had nothing to do or say about the Quran here is my question Mark 16: 9, 20 all removed From the NIV and the RSV.WHY. You took my question and answered me about the quran.I really wanted to know why were these verses removed? many plagues be unto those who removed them so says the Bible???? Thanks for the prayer we young men need it. Ismail. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 21 November 2013 at 10:44am
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To continue with Mark 16:9-20:
Response: --- In the New King James it again gives a footnote which says: Quote: Verses 9-20 are bracketed in some Versions as not original. They are lacking in Codex Siniaticus, and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other Manuscripts of Mark contain them. However, in my NIV and the �online� one it records it all. Here is the context in 16: 1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus� body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, �Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?� 4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed. 6 �Don�t be alarmed,� he said. �You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, �He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.�� 8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid. --- (Then it says this): ________________________________________ [The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9�20.] 9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. 12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. (Recorded in Luke 24:13-35.) 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either. 14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15 He said to them, �Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.� 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. Notice: --- �It said the first Manuscripts do not have verses 9-20.� --- Mark wrote in collaboration with Peter but would have gotten the main message from the former Gospel of Matthew in Aramaic, which was no doubt the basic teaching for the three Synoptic Gospels. Peter�s first language would be Aramaic, and a common language of Christians was Latin, so Peter and Mark were ministering together in Rome. --- Mark was perhaps better in Greek so he wrote his account for the people of Rome. Mark was a teenager at the time that Jesus was crucified, and this incident, only mentioned in Mark is believed to refer to himself. --- He was with the disciples when they came to arrest Jesus, and it said this in Mark 14: 43 And immediately, while he (Jesus) yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders. 46 And they laid their hands on him, and took him. 51 And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men (with Judas) laid hold on him: 52 And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked. --- There is no indication that Mark was present beyond this point, so did not record the end of the story. He was no doubt anxious to finish his account so he obviously ended it with the women who were afraid, and didn�t tell anyone. --- (How come you didn�t find this discrepancy?) Mark did mention Mary Magdalene who had gone first to the tomb, but not as 'going to Peter and John': 9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. --- Because Mary Magdalene went to Peter and John, they responded in John 20: 1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple (John), whom Jesus loved, and said to them, �They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.� 3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. 4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple (John), who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. --- It is obvious that Peter added this �Post Script� to Mark�s Gospel, so the first Manuscript was copied without the verses. --- But further copies contained the verses 9-20. --- Which is mentioned in Footnotes* in all versions. Placid |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 November 2013 at 2:29pm
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Greetings Ismail, I did answer your question in my earlier post. Happy to remember you in prayer. Salaam, CH
------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 23 November 2013 at 11:51pm
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Hi Placid,
You respond by telling me that They are lacking in Codex Siniaticus, and Codex Vaticanus,[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9�20.] My question to you is why and who removed these verses and when the Holy Spirit inspired them did he also inspire them to leave out some of the verses??????If the Holy spirit talks to you everyday why do you not ask him why does he not fix the Bible which is corrupted beyond repair.All the Church fathers are in a limbo as to the teachings of the great master Jesus pboh. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 25 November 2013 at 7:58am
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Hi iec,
My question to you is why and who removed these verses and when the Holy Spirit inspired them did he also inspire them to leave out some of the verses??????If the Holy spirit talks to you everyday why do you not ask him why does he not fix the Bible which is corrupted beyond repair.All the Church fathers are in a limbo as to the teachings of the great master Jesus pboh. Response: --- The verses you mentioned are in your NIV, in footnotes, or with notations. --- No great problem but simply that some Greek Manuscripts left out verse 21. --- As for this comment, �the Bible which is corrupted beyond repair,� is a statement of prejudice against God and His word, which is given in truth to those who believe. --- Can you give an example, �as to the teachings of the great master Jesus,� that are corrupted? --- In the Quran there is not a verse that speaks of the Gospel being corrupted, --- The Quran was from 300 years after the NT was finalized and there have been no changes from then till now --- Only the choice of words of the translators, --- (And faulty comments like those in your NIV.) |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 02 December 2013 at 10:13am
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Hi Placid,
Response: --- The verses you mentioned are in your NIV, in footnotes, or with notations. --- No great problem but simply that some Greek Manuscripts left out verse 21. In my Bible it there in the text,not in the footnote.King James version.Now you removed it to a footnote.If it is in a footnote in one Bible and in the text of another Bible then these Bibles are corrupted and the Holy Ghost did not see fit to rectify it. --- As for this comment, �the Bible which is corrupted beyond repair,� is a statement of prejudice against God and His word, which is given in truth to those who believe. --- Can you give an example, �as to the teachings of the great master Jesus,� that are corrupted? --- In the Quran there is not a verse that speaks of the Gospel being corrupted, --- The Quran was from 300 years after the NT was finalized and there have been no changes from then till now --- Only the choice of words of the translators, --- (And faulty comments like those in your NIV.) King James Bible And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. King James Bible And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child,Jesus. Paul nail the commandment to the cross. "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (I Corinthians 7:19). This is only one. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 04 December 2013 at 8:03am
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Hi iec,
Quote: Paul nail the commandment to the cross. "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (I Corinthians 7:19). Response: --- It was God who made the change in the OT laws with the New Covenant. The law of circumcision was given to Abraham as a covenant. There was also the symbol of the �shedding of blood� and the OT laws were fulfilled in the New Law of Love which Jesus taught. The Pharisees tried to catch Jesus in breaking the Law as in Matthew 22: 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 �Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?� 37 Jesus said to him, ��You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.� 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: �You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.� --- And Paul said, �but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (I Corinthians 7:19). --- And the New Law is �Love God and love your neighbor as yourself," --- and out of that relationship with God comes the expression and action of �good works.� The OT Laws were fulfilled in the coming of Jesus which fulfilled the Law and the Prophesies of the coming Messiah. What did Jesus teach about circumcision? What did Muhammad teach about circumcision? --- The word circumcision is not even in the Quran. --- While it is practiced by Christians and Muslims as a tradition or for hygienic purposes, it has no spiritual benefit as it was part of the Old Covenant given to Abraham. Paul said, what I would say, --- �Whether you are circumcised, baptized, confirmed in a Church, or an Altar Boy, there is no spiritual benefit unless you commit your heart to the Lord.� --- �Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart.� |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 04 December 2013 at 9:49pm
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Hi Placid,
Jesus said i Matthew 5:17 New International Version (NIV) The Fulfillment of the Law 17 �Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. CIRCUMCISION : A perpetual pact with God - (a) "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money (your slaves), MUST needs be circumcised: and my convenant shall be in your flesh for an EVERLASTING convenant." GENESIS 17:13 (b) The uncircumcised to be "CUT OFF" (to be killed). GENESIS 17:14 I will leave you to answer. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 05 December 2013 at 9:45am
Hi Placid, Was Jesus circumcised in the heat or by his genitals?????this bovine excrement that circumcision of the heat nonsense is from Paul What did Jesus do he was circumcised on the 8th day physically not spiritually. Abraham was circumcised how??????? Please stop giving us hogwash. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 December 2013 at 8:57pm
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Greetings Ismail, Your are overlooking the fact that God said He was going to do a new thing, 19 Behold,
I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? (as spoken through the prophet Isaiah) Yahshua is the fulfillment of the law. You must know all of what Yahshua taught, and all of that which went before Him. The old testament has the hidden message of the new covenant that is to come, and that new covenant is Yahshua, and that He is the way to salvation, to the Creator... the new covenant(Yahshua) reveals the hidden message of the old testament. Salaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 05 December 2013 at 10:10pm
Caringheart, God said kill all those that were uncircumcised that was his covenant,Jesus followed that covenant,The storey of a new covenant by an self induced apostle writer of his own whims and fancies then claim he is an apostle,this person who caught you with lies gives you a new covenant???Not God. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 December 2013 at 9:06pm
Greetings Ismail, I am confused by your reply, but I believe it is saying that you reject the new covenant, and if so, this is not a wise or rightly guided thing. Salaam, Caringheart Peter was the one called by Yahshua Himself to be the foundation of God's new church... His new covenant... and it was Peter, with the authority of God who gave the command regarding the gentiles and circumcision... there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.Blessings to you Ismail, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 December 2013 at 10:32am
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Greetings Caringheart,
I have a problem with your writings: "That new thing is the new covenant sent through Yahshua(known to us as Jesus). Yahshua is the fulfillment of the law." Here you are saying that Yahshua and Jesus are same person? How that can be when your next post you wrote: "16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Here Christ and Living God are addressed as two persons. Further in the same post you quoted: " 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." So, here Jesus/Christ is saying he did not reveal it to, Peter or whoever, rather "my Father" clearly pointing to a different entity. How you can mix them up to be one is out of any sense, any truth. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 18 December 2013 at 10:48am
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Caringheart
Was Jesus circumcised???? was Moses circumcised???? was Abraham circumcised???? was Paul circumcised???? remember he was a Jew. If your answer is yes to the above then all Christians will have to be circumcised at the private part and not the heart. iec |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 December 2013 at 12:51pm
Greetings iec, I really do not believe it will matter to the Creator if man is circumcised in the flesh or not. I believe the command is given for the purposes of hygiene and protection, as are most of the laws in the old testament. i.e., I think the same is the reason for the prohibition of pork... or the eating of meat from the animal with a cloven hoof. We have since learned through science how deadly pork can be. and the washing also, is it not for our protection? Salaam, Caringheart  ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 7:44am
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iec[/QUOTE]Greetings iec,I really do not believe it will matter to the Creator if man is circumcised in the flesh or not.� I believe the command is given for the purposes of hygiene and protection, as are most of the laws in the old testament.i.e., I think the same is the reason for the prohibition of pork... or the eating of meat from the animal with a cloven hoof.� We have since learned through science how deadly pork can be.and the washing also, is it not for our protection?Salaam,Caringheart [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />[/QUOTE] Hi Caringheart, I really do not believe it will matter to the Creator if man is circumcised in the flesh or not. My dear Caringheart it is easy for you to dismiss it as oh well God will not mind.Let us see what the Bible says. 13Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.� An everlasting covenant.I hope all in your household are circumcised or else they should be killed according to the Bible. Ismail
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 7:27pm
Greetings Ismail, You refer to the old testament... the old covenant of God. The everlasting covenant means that the circumcision in the flesh will never cease to be a sign unto God of belonging to Him. But we live by the new covenant of God, (which does not require circumcision in the flesh). 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? (as told through the prophet Isaiah) New Covenant 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (NIV) Caringheart note: I use a composite of translations to make understanding easier. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 December 2013 at 5:41pm
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...blasphemy at it's best. And it also reminds me of the verses that totally contradict to what you wrote above. These words are also by the way are in the same Bible: "And He said unto him, �Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God. But if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the commandments.� Matt 19:17 "And Jesus said unto him, �Why callest thou Me good? None is good save One, that is, God." Luke 18:19 "Jesus said unto her, �Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say unto them, �I ascend unto My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.�� John 20:17 "for My Father is greater than I" John 14:28 Just wanted to remind you of the contradictions of your source. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 31 December 2013 at 7:53am
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 January 2014 at 7:34pm
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Greetings Ismael, I still have yet to have any muslim tell me what it is that they find objectionable in Paul's teaching. Do you really think it is going to matter to the Creator about a piece of flesh and whether or not it has been cut off of the man's private part? Or does it make more sense that it will matter what is in his heart and in his behavior... what are the fruits of his life? (this is what Yshwe was trying to teach... that binding laws about the necks of people to drag them down does nothing to gain them entrance to the kingdom of God) Are you willing to believe that if a man has followed God in every way except for circumcision of his penis he will denied a place with his Creator? Can you not see that the reason for this command of God has little to do with man's entry into the kingdom of God? It may have served an early purpose for the Jews... but can you not see that there are much more important things to the determining of whether a man merit's the kingdom of God or not? (this is what Yshwe was trying to open the eyes of those who would, to see... it is this that Paul was reinforcing) I am always being told that islam teaches to use logic of the mind God has given. Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 10:29pm
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 11:48pm
Greetings Ismael, Let me begin by saying, sorry for the length of this reply, but I felt all that is included was necessary. I hope you will take time to read and consider it all, as I gave much consideration and time to your reply. Paul taught the same as Yshwe was teaching. Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. 12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. 15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. He(Paul) did it(taught) with the blessing and approval of all of Yshwe's Apostles. Acts of the apostles, chapter 15 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, �Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.� 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, �It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.� 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: �Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.� 12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, �Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 �After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; 17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.� 18 �Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.� 22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. 23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, �You must be circumcised and keep the law� �to whom we gave no such commandment� 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. 30 So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. 31 When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement. 32 Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words. 33 And after they had stayed there for a time, they were sent back with greetings from the brethren to the apostles. If the very Apostle's of Yshwe accepted Paul, who of any of us has higher wisdom, or authority, to reject him? Why do muslims always ignore the new covenant of God which was declared before its time? 16 Thus saith the Lord, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; 17 Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow. 18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. 20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. 21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise. 22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. 23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense. These are doctrines of men that do not serve the Lord. 24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified. 27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. By teaching doctrines of men. Yshwe taught the doctrines of the Lord... that it is what is in the heart that matters. 39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. 43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. Proverbs 4 of the old testament teaching; 19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. 20 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. 21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. 22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. 23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. Yshwe came to establish the good teachings of the Lord... to fulfill all that was, and is, in the old testament. "Abraham and his children were commanded to be circumcised as a "sign of covenant" between them and God (Gen. 17:10-11)."Yes, Abraham and his children... but not the gentiles... they are not descendants of Abraham, are they? "If all the Prophets were circumcised then should we circumcise or not?"Are we prophets? I suppose it could be said that if you are a descendant of Abraham, perhaps then it is correct for muslims as well as Jews... but not for gentiles. The circumcision did, at one time, set apart the Jews from the rest of the people, but not so true today, is it? This is not what sets one mans heart apart from another today, does it? I see that Yshwe came to correct men's thinking, and to illuminate the minds, to see that it is what is in the heart that matters... not the flesh. Salaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 05 January 2014 at 12:08am
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Hi Carringheart,that was a very long article and because you put all the effort into it I read it and found it to be thought provoking ,however lol you must expect that you know, the facts on the character of Paul remains sceptical and he still remains a suspect.
On the road to Damascus, while persecuting the early Christians, after the death of Jesus, a man claimed that he saw a vision, a vision of Jesus. The man was Saul of Tarsus (Latinized as Paul). From there on, the teachings of Christ were transformed and Romanized and modern Christianity was born. The vision in which Paul claims that Jesus gave him an authority to teach in his name is recorded a number of times in the New Testament. If we were to analyse these variant descriptions, made by the same man, as in a court of law, they would be thrown out as fabricated "evidence" because of inconsistencies. For example: 1. Acts (9:3-7) [3] Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. [4] And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" [5] And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; [6] but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do." [7] The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. In this description, it is stated that only Paul fell to the ground. And, the other men who travelled with him did not see anything but heard a voice. Compare this to the next description: 2. Acts (22:6-9) [6] "As I made my journey and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. [7] And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, `Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?' [8] And I answered, `Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, `I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.' [9] Now those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me. In this description, in complete contradiction to the one above, Paul states that those who travelled with him did not hear the voice but saw the light. The previous description said that they did not see anything but heard a voice! 3. Acts (26:14) [14] And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, `Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.' In this description, Paul says that they "all" fell to the ground whereas in the previous description, only Paul had fallen to the ground. In any court of law, anywhere in the world where justice is upheld, this testimony of Paul would have been thrown out as fabrication and he would have been prosecuted for perjury. Paul's Christianity is not what Jesus taught: The German philosopher, Fredrick Neitzsche recognized Paul's role in constructing the "new" Christianity, and was convinced of deception: In Nietzsche's view, the very worst of them was Paul, the actual founder of the Christian church and doctrine. Nietzsche was convinced that Paul was not sincere in his beliefs, that "his requirement was power." Nietzsche cannot bring himself to believe that Paul, "whose home was the principal center of Stoic enlightenment," is sincere when he offers up a hallucination as proof that The Redeemer still lives. Paul invented the doctrines of 'eternal life' and 'the Judgement' as a means to his ends. In Die Morgenrote (translated by R. J. Hollingdale as Daybreak, Cambridge Univ. Press, 1982), Nietzsche had earlier discussed Paul's frustrations at being unable to master, and to comply with, Jewish law, and hence Paul "sought about for a means of destroying" that law. Christianity offered Paul just the weapon he had been seeking. [A 40-42; Die Morgenrote 68, http://www.debunker.com/texts/anti_chr.html, retrieved 12/08/'01]. Paul destroyed the Law: Romans 3:28 [28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Romans 7:4 [4] Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. 1 Corinthians 10:25 [25] Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. Contrary to what Paul taught, Jesus stated that he came to fulfil the Law and not abolish it. He further states that whoever takes the least bit out of the Law will be "the least" in the Kingdom of Heaven. Since Paul took the "whole" law out, according to Jesus' criteria, Paul is the "least" of the "least"! Consider these words of Jesus: Matthew 5:17-20: [17] "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. [18] For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. [19] Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. " The Law laid down strict dietary laws, for example, the Book of Deuteronomy, a part of the Torah, states: And the swine, because it parts the hoof but does not chew the cud, is unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. (Deuteronomy 14:8) Furthermore, the concept of salvation that Paul brought into Christianity from Greek myth was also alien to what Jesus taught. According to Paul, believing in the "lord" Jesus and confessing that he was raised from the dead, saves a person. He says: Romans 10:9 [9] "Because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. " 1 Corinthians 15:14: [14] If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain This is unequivocally against what Jesus himself taught. Christians need to ask themselves here, "Whom do we believe, Paul or Jesus?" Jesus says explicitly: Matthew 7:21-23 [21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' Matthew 19:17 [17] And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One (God) there is who is good. If you would enter life,keep the commandments." James, who knew Jesus much closer than Paul says: James 2:26 [26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 05 January 2014 at 12:09am
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The Original Sin:
Christianity and Islam differ regarding the concept of the Original Sin. According to Christianity, Adam and Eve, the first humans sinned when they ate the forbidden fruit. They were expelled from heaven and sin entered the world. Every child of Adam, you and I, according to Christianity has inherited this sin (as genetic inheritance). Therefore, every male and female is born stained with sin and is therefore destined to hell, from birth. This belief in Christianity gave rise to the doctrine of Atonement. According to this doctrine, God sacrificed his "only begotten" son, Jesus to wash away the sins of the world. The only thing people have to do to wash away their hereditary stain is to believe in Jesus as God's son and that he died for them. Islam does not agree with all this. According to the Koran, every one is responsible for their own doings and nobody can carry the burden of another. God is forgiving and if a person sincerely repents, amends and does what is good and righteous, God forgives. Adam did not ask us before eating the fruit, so how can we be blamed? In any society, where justice is one of the highest valued morals, killing an innocent man (Jesus) to wash away the sins of the guilty would be condemned as immoral, yet billions of people rejoice over this "gift" of injustice! Once again, the source of conflict is Paul and not Jesus. Jesus never talked about atonement or a "free-ride" through the blood of an innocent man. On the contrary he said, "If you would enter life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17). It was Paul who brought the concept of the Original Sin into Christianity. He says: Romans 5:12 [12] "Therefore, as sin came into the world through ONE man.." 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 [21] "For as by a man came death (sin), by a man also has come the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." As we saw above, Jesus contradicts Paul. Not only that, the Old Testament contradicts Paul as well: Ezekiel 18:20-22 [20] The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. [21] "But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. [22] None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live. 2 Chronicles 25:4 [4] But he did not put their children to death, according to what is written in the law, in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, or the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin." Major Yeats Brown, in his book, Life of a Bengal Lancer, summarized the concept of atonement in Christianity. He states: "No heathen tribe has conceived so grotesque an idea, involving as it does the assumption, that man was born with a hereditary stain upon him: and that this stain (for which he was not personally responsible) was to be atoned for; and the creator of all things had to sacrifice his only begotten son, to neutralize this mysterious curse." Paul actually transformed the strict monotheism that Jesus proclaimed into a religion that is closer to Greek mythology, than it is towards either Judaism or Islam. Things like the "only begotten son", atonement for the sins of humanity etc. were all alien to the strict monotheism of Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and all the prophets of Israel. John H. Randall, emeritus professor of philosophy at Columbia University, wrote: "Christianity, at the hands of Paul, became a mystical system of redemption, much like the cult of Isis, and the other sacramental or mystery religions of the day" (Hellenistic Ways of Deliverance and the Making of the Christian Synthesis, 1970, p. 154, http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html, retrieved 12/0-8/'01). Greek cults were prevalent in the Mediterranean long before Jesus was born. They were brought into Christianity by Paul to make doctrine "inclusive" thereby destroying the strict monotheism that Jesus proclaimed. Some of the ones, with their parallels in Christianity, are: 1. Attis of Phrygia (later called Galatia in Asia Minor): He was regarded as the "only begotten" son and savior. He was bled to death on March 24th on the foot of a pine tree. He also rose from the dead and his death and resurrection was celebrated by his followers. "A Christian writer of the fourth century AD, recounted ongoing disputes between Pagans and Christians over the remarkable similarities of the death and resurrection of their two Gods. The Pagans argued that their God was older and therefore original. The Christians admitted Christ came later, but claimed Attis was a work of the devil whose similarity to Christ, and the fact he predated Christ, were intended to confuse and mislead men. This was apparently the stock answer -- the Christian apologist Tertullian makes the same argument." (http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/PaganChrists_Attis.html, retrieved 12/08/'01) 2. Adonis of Syria: He was born of a virgin mother. He also suffered death for the redemption of mankind, arising from the dead in spring. 3. Bacchus of Greece or Dionesius He was termed the "only begotten" son of Jupiter. He was born of a virgin named Detemer on December 25th. To his followers, he was "redeemer". He called himself "Alpha and Omega" i.e. similar to the words used for Jesus by the author of the Book of Revelation. 4. Orisis of the Egyptians He was born of a virgin mother on December 29th. He was betrayed by one Typhen (remember Judas) and was slain. He was buried (just like Jesus), remained in hell for two to three days (just like Jesus), and then rose from the dead (just like Jesus). 5. Mithra, the Persian Sun-God He was also born of a virgin on the 25th of December. Christmas and Easter were the most important festivals of the Mithras. They also had other surprising similarities with Paul's Christianity like the Eucharist supper etc. Dr. Arnold Meyer, professor of Theology at the Zurich University, after describing the basic Christian beliefs of today, i.e. the divinity of Christ, atonement etc. states: If this is Christianity, then such Christianity was founded by St. Paul and not by our lord (Jesus or Paul, page 122) � 2001 |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 07 January 2014 at 12:05pm
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Hi iec,
Quote concerning Paul: 1Paul lied when he told the world that he was an apostle, (Question 1 of four, from the middle of psge 4) Response: --- How little you know , or believe. The word for Apostle in the Greek means, �One sent forth.� --- And when Paul had the vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus, this was the conversation between Jesus and the disciple at Damascus in Acts 9: 10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, �Ananias.� --- And he said, �Here I am, Lord.� 11 So the Lord said to him, �Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.� 13 Then Ananias answered, �Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.� 15 But the Lord said to him, �Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name�s sake.� 17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, �Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.� 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. 19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. Paul was converted and the Lord said in verse 15, �He is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.� --- That is exactly what he did, being guided by the Holy Spirit. At a later date, this happened in Acts 22: 17 �Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, �Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.� 19 So I said, �Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.� 21 Then He said to me, �Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.�� --- So here Paul was sent again to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. --- If you don�t want to believe it, that is up to you, but this is where Paul was chosen and sent as an Apostle to the Gentiles, before Kings and to Rome to appear before Caesar, however there is no evidence that Caesar ever called for him, so he continued preaching and teaching in Rome. Placid |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 January 2014 at 1:36pm
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Greetings Ismail, As you have written alot, and my reply also will be long... and as it takes a whole day for my replies to get posted... I will be replying in parts. Beginning from your first reply to me, dated Jan. 5; One account reports seeing 'the light' the other account reports 'seeing no one'... as in no person this does not discount the latter report of seeing 'the light'. Re: Acts, this is what is recorded... Jesus' last recorded words have come to be known as the Great Commission: "Ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."(1:8). The Book of Acts, written by Luke, is the story of the men and women who took that commission seriously and began to spread the news of a risen Saviour to the most remote corners of the known world. Each section of the book (1-7; 8-12; 13-28) focuses on a particular audience, a key personality, and a significant phase in the expansion of the gospel message. So, When you recount an incident of what has happened to you, do you suppose your account matches exactly and precisely every time you tell it? Does it make any difference if in one account it mentions only Paul only falling to the ground, and in another it mentions that the others fell to the ground also? Might you tell the account one way describing only your own experience in one account, but possibly in telling it another time, including the experience of the others as well? These minor things really mean nothing. I say again; If the very Apostle's of Yshwe accepted Paul why should we reject him? The greatest testimony on Paul's behalf is this; Do you not think something miraculous had to have happened to completely turn him around in his stance against the 'Christians'? He went from one who was persecuting, to one who was persecuted. Why on earth would he choose this course unless something astounding had happened to change him? Why would he give up his superior status as a Roman and as a pharisee to become one of the persecuted? Re: Nietzsche's Since when do opinions of philosophers rank higher than the Word of God? Since when does any philosopher believe in God or religion? Aren't they always trying to prove man's superior wisdom? "Paul invented the doctrines of 'eternal life' and 'the Judgement' as a means to his ends." Doesn't the qur'an also speak of eternal life and of the day of judgement? "Nietzsche had earlier discussed Paul's frustrations at being unable to master, and to comply with, Jewish law, and hence Paul "sought about for a means of destroying" that law." If Paul in any way taints what Yshwe taught, it is with his pharisiacal beliefs. Paul reinforces the Mosaic law, whereas Yshwe little addresses it, except to say that the pharisees do not understand the purpose of the law and in their lack of understanding they destroy God's good purpose. Romans 3:28 The scriptures require a thorough study of all to understand the full meaning of all, and not just a picking at semantics. If one seeks to discredit Paul then they will certainly find the way to do so, by not taking into account the fullness of the gospel... the good news. In the scriptures it is duly noted by those who have studied the fullness of them, as follows: 3:28 - While believers are neither justified nor declared sinless through works, they are sanctified or set apart by the life they live. Works are an essential part of a believer's life since by them a person develops the same character and mind of Messiah. continuing with, Paul says; 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not: yea we establish the law. for without the law we would not know that we transgress (Romans 4:15) but by faith we learn to live by the law notes from the scriptures, on 3:31: In response to his own question, Paul champions establishing and upholding the law. He re-iterates this in Romans 5:15. He goes on to describe how Abraham himself was justified by his faith and not by works... as was David. I could continue to write a long expose, just as you have read the expose's of others against Paul, but the only way you will truly understand is to read for yourself what it is that Paul wrote. Then I think you will find you can have no argument with Paul. Read what Paul says, not what others have to say about what Paul says. But I am sure you have enough to study within your own beliefs, and as much as is required to understand your own... the same attention and devotion is essential in the study of others. It is a very time consuming vocation. Re: Romans 7:4; ref. Romans 6:14 - the key is in verse 13, where one yields to YHWH with a life of righteousness. Being righteous, one is not under sin's influence and is free from the penalties of law breaking. Grace is charis and means, "Divine influence on the heart and its reflection in one's life." Thus, 'saved by grace'... by charis... by 'Divine influence on the heart and its reflection in one's life'. (I am taking a break here but will continue...it should give you time to look up and digest some of what I have written?) Salaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 January 2014 at 4:36pm
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(continued...) Re: 1 Corinthians 10:25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 3 Jesus replied, 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 ��These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.�� 10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, �Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone�s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.� (as recorded in the book of Matthew, chapter 15, and the book of Mark, chapter 7) Paul was teaching nothing different than Yshwe Himself. Anyway the notes in the scriptures realating to the passage of 1 Corinthians 10:25 read as follows; first the verse is; 25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: and the notes are; sold in the shambles - this passage refers not to the dietary food laws of the old testament, but to food sacrificed to idols and later sold in the meat markets. and if you'd like to understand the fullness of what Paul was saying... 24 Don�t be concerned for your own good but for the good of others. 25 So you may eat any meat that is sold in the marketplace without raising questions of conscience. 26 For �the earth is the Lord�s, and everything in it.� 27 If someone who isn�t a believer asks you home for dinner, accept the invitation if you want to. Eat whatever is offered to you without raising questions of conscience. 28 (But suppose someone tells you, �This meat was offered to an idol.� Don�t eat it, out of consideration for the conscience of the one who told you. 29 It might not be a matter of conscience for you, but it is for the other person.) For why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks? 30 If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it? 31 So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Don�t give offense to Jews or Gentiles or the church of God. 33 I, too, try to please everyone in everything I do. I don�t just do what is best for me; I do what is best for others so that many may be saved. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 January 2014 at 4:51pm
"Jesus never talked about atonement or a "free-ride" through the blood of an innocent man."The atonement was long known in Judaic history... as a means and a pathway to God. the 'scape goat' required by God (Leviticus 16) Abram instructed to sacrifice his son. 'There is much yet to be accomplished that you do not understand' How can Jesus pay for us? Why can He not, if He chooses to? Would we then refuse the gift? Would we reject one who has been gracious enough to pay our debt for us? How insulting and ungrateful would that be? If I were to offer myself to God in your place, does God not have the right and the authority to accept this? And if he accepts my offer as release of your debt, are you one to argue with God about whether or not He can do this? It is like this... If you were to be brought before the judge to pay your debts, and the judge were to turn to you and say you are free to go, there was one here before you and he has paid your debt. Can you argue with the judge? "Christianity is the only religion that recognizes the hopeless gap between man and a Holy and Righteous God, teaching that salvation can only be obtained through God's grace." Human effort can not get us there. We will always be flawed and imperfect. The only perfection comes through Christ. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 January 2014 at 2:19pm
Still singing the same old song Caringheart? How many times we have gone over the contradictions in your theory and the source of that theory. Matt 12: 36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment" Matt 5:30 "And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Deut 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Here again this verse also says otherwise: Mark 3:28 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." So, the only thing clear is that no one is paying for no one with nothing. No one can pay for anyone's sins. And that it is God's forgiveness, not blood, gold or wealth that will achieve forgiveness and thus salvation. The reason that your theory of Jesus paying for sins of others with his blood using Bible as it's source, it is obvious with our study of the Bible that it is inconsistent within itself. And that is not because it is not from God, rather it has been tempered with by men and so it contradicts your claim. God knowing this (that people will alter His word)has blessed us with His pure message again, the Quran. The Quran says: 25:70 "Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Choice is your's after knowledge has reached you. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 12 January 2014 at 4:29am
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"Christianity is the only religion that recognizes the hopeless gap between man and a Holy and Righteous God, teaching that salvation can only be obtained through God's grace."
Human effort can not get us there. We will always be flawed and imperfect. The only perfection comes through Christ. Hi Carringheart,wow that was three times my post have mercy. that was long. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. If you repent you will be forgiven without Christ. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. So through prayer fasting and repentance you can wipe away your sins no need for grace or any human intervention.Forgiveness is in the hands of Allah. Peace Ismail |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 January 2014 at 11:00am
Greetings Ismail, - I warned you. Thanks for making me laugh.but you did hit me with two very long replies of your own. Regarding; "Christianity is the only religion that recognizes the hopeless gap between man and a Holy and Righteous God, teaching that salvation can only be obtained through God's grace." and your reply; "If you repent you will be forgiven without Christ." I have never disagreed with this. I only say that for many it is through the sacrifice made by the Creator, through the Son, Yshwe, that many are led to repentance. It is by the recognition of this great sacrifice that many come to love God. for 'what greater gift is there but that one should lay down his life for another'? and who would 'trample underfoot, the blood of the one who made the sacrifice for you'? It is for this reason I also included the explanation of grace... Grace is charis and means, "Divine influence on the heart and its reflection in one's life." Thus, 'saved by grace'... by charis... means saved by 'Divine influence on the heart and its reflection in one's life'.... i.e., repentance. Without Christ... without Love of God, and for God, people will not repent... they may try to follow rules, but they will always end up breaking the rules, because they are human, and the flesh is weak, born through sin... this is why we need the gift of Christ... Christ who strengthens us, Christ who comes to live in us. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.' Salaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 16 February 2014 at 12:21pm
Hi Caringheart, The last paragraph of your post is interesting,you say that
Not true I repent without Christ and i go directly to God and i am saved.I know that for a fact and that is why i need no man god to save me.Allah is enough for me.
I can of mine own self do nothing:John 5:30 Nothing means nothing. 21 �But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.If you repent you will be forgiven.Not because someone died on the cross.This was Paul nailing the law to the cross.
What about all the other sons of God were they dumped by God or were they the useless sons of God?????? (a) "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE 3:38 (b) "That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose. ". . . when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2 and 4 (c) ". . . Thus saith the Lord, Israel is MY SON even my FIRSTBORN." EXODUS 4:22 (d) ". . . and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN." JEREMIAH 31:9 (e) ". . . Thou (O David) ART MY SON; this day have I (God) BEGOTTEN thee." PSALMS 2:7 Ismail |