PAUL
Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24924
Printed Date: 24 April 2024 at 1:28am
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Topic: PAUL
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: PAUL
Date Posted: 22 February 2013 at 12:09pm
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Was Paul a real apostle or a fake?
Paul said God's law was a Curse. Jesus said it was a blessing. Who's lying? Paul condemned Jesus and His disciples for false teachings, he condemned Jesus Himself for having long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14, something approved in Numbers 6:5 and Judges 13:5. Jesus Said: Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2:27), circumcise male children (Luke 2:21), Paul Said: Circumcision is not necessary (Romans 2:26) that is going against what the Christ said in Luke 2:21. Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus Paul was never trained by the disciples, the men who walked, talked, and broke bread with our Saviour. He received his knowledge from "revelations." Paul's account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it In 1 Corinthians 15:1 Paul says that he was not giving them anything but what �he preached.� He explained this even further in the second book (or letter) to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:17). It reads - �That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.� He's telling you plain and simple he was speaking of himself and not from or of the Lord!" |
Replies:
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 11 March 2013 at 9:32pm
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Mahdi Said Was Paul a real apostle or a fake? My Reply Where are you getting this stuff from? Mahdi Said
Paul said God's law was a Curse. Jesus said it was a blessing. Who's lying? My Reply Why don�t you quote the verses and we can look at them in context. Mahdi Said Paul condemned Jesus and His disciples for false teachings, he condemned Jesus Himself for having long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14, something approved in Numbers 6:5 and Judges 13:5. My Reply To understand this 1 Corinthians 11:14b you need to understand what the situation was like in Apart from your point about long hair please quote the verses where Paul condemned Jesus and His disciples for false teachings so we can look at them in context. Mahdi Said Jesus Said: Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2:27) My Reply You misunderstand Mark 2:27. Once again you do not understand the context verse or context. According to the religious people Jesus was breaking the Sabbath and Jesus then is condemning the religious people for being too religious with the Sabbath. Mahdi Said Jesus said circumcise male children (Luke 2:21) , Paul Said: Circumcision is not necessary (Romans 2:26). that is going against what the Christ said in Luke 2:21. My Reply Wrong! You quote this verse is out of context (as usual). Jesus was not even talking in Luke 2.21. Mahdi Said Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus My Reply The resurrected Christ initiated Paul as an apostle on the Mahdi Said Paul was never trained by the disciples, the men who walked, talked, and broke bread with our Saviour. My Reply and Peter and James recognized him as an apostle as is shown in the Book of Acts. Mahdi Said He received his knowledge from "revelations." Paul's account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it My Reply Mohammad received his knowledge from �revelations� and Paul had more Jewish credentials than Mohammad ever had. Where are the verses showing Paul's account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it ? Mahdi Said In 1 Corinthians 15:1 Paul says that he was not giving them anything but what �he preached.� He explained this even further in the second book (or letter) to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:17). It reads - �That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.� He's telling you plain and simple he was speaking of himself and not from or of the Lord!" My Reply So what�s your point here? Was your Mohammad a prophet? He was a war monger who lived by the sword. He encouraged his men to take slave girls as prizes and he advised husbands to beat their wives. |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 12 March 2013 at 8:19am
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Lol Mahdi, you spend too much time on answering-christianity.com. Just cuz, please show us where you think you saw Jesus with long hair. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 13 March 2013 at 2:46am
| I also wonder if your M... was a prophet considering he had S relations with a little girl ? |
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 15 March 2013 at 3:40pm
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Experiential wrote:Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 16 March 2013 at 12:20am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 March 2013 at 9:15am
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Hard to imagine that Paul was willing to be beaten, imprisoned, and die, for nothing, when he could have lived his whole life as an esteemed member of the Roman empire, and one of the Pharisees. I would say something spectacular had to have happened to bring about such a transformation to this man's life, wouldn't you? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 16 March 2013 at 9:03pm
You have evidence Jesus had long hair? ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 22 March 2013 at 7:07am
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Hey Mahdi, I've looked and looked and every picture I've seen of Jesus, He has long hair. Alas, can't get away from it, go figure. Long blond hair, blue eyes, and a really nice tan. Where do we go from here? I didn't want to be your show stopper here. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 26 March 2013 at 4:51am
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1 Corinthians 7:12-14 New International Version
(NIV) 12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): enuff said Again 1 Corinthians 7 (New International Version)25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 27 March 2013 at 12:22am
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Is Paul not allowed to add his personal comments in his letters? That's it? Your whole refutation? What about the long hair? That's where you started. What happened? Jesus got a hair cut?
------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 May 2013 at 10:37am
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Since so many muslims seem to take issue with Paul, without ever reading what Paul taught, I have decided to share some of the teachings of Paul. Salaam. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 27 Neither give place to the devil. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God ... hath forgiven you. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 20 May 2013 at 4:31am
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Hi,
The thing I like about the letters that Paul wrote to the Churches is that he wrote to the new Christians in simple language and emphasized the same to a Gentile audience that did not have much previous spiritual understanding --- as Jesus emphasized to the very religious Jews. Jesus gave His disciples a new lifestyle to follow, when He said in John 13: 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.� --- (Jesus said the new Commandment to Love God and love your neighbor as yourself, fulfilled the Old Testament Laws.) And Paul says it simply in Romans 13: 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, �You shall not commit adultery,� �You shall not murder,� �You shall not steal,� �You shall not bear false witness,� �You shall not covet,� and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, �You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Placid |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 May 2013 at 2:26pm
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14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For
the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh:
and these are contrary the one to the other: ... 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. - the teaching of Paul ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 08 September 2013 at 12:24pm
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PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit:
"But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 September 2013 at 5:12pm
Greetings iec, Just as there are passages of the qur'an that muslims say non-muslims misunderstand... this is one that muslims often misunderstand. Let's examine the context of what Paul is saying. 13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong. 15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. 16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. 17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you? He is saying that he required nothing of them and it was through the witness of his own self sacrifice that they were won over. Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 10 September 2013 at 10:05am
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PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit:
"But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16 Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus Paul's account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it, thus the disciples knew he was lying. Paul taught the exact Opposite of what Jesus and His real disciples did. The devil 'PAUL' BLASPEMOUSLY BOASTED "For I BECAME YOUR FATHER" (1 Corinthians 4:15) "I ('PAUL') testify to the gospel of the grace of god...ANOTHER GOSPEL...ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL " (Acts 20:24. 2 Corinthians 11:4. 1 Corinthians 10:23). "PERVERTING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS EVEN DENYING THE ONLY LORD GOD (THE FATHER) AND OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (THE FATHER'S SON)" (Jude 4. 1 John 2:22) http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/paul_was_a_deceiver.htm |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 September 2013 at 11:39am
Greetings iec, Paul didn't deceive anyone, and it is a shame that you do not know this. Paul always consulted with Peter and sought his approval, and the approval of all the Apostles, in all that he did. I'm sorry that I don't have time right now to respond to each of the things you posted. If I find that I can, I will come back to it. Salaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 11 September 2013 at 1:54pm
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Hi Caringheart,
Paul was never an apostle.Paul is the writer of 90% of the New testament in which he nailed Jesus to the cross.He wrote most of the New Testament on his own experience and dreams.This has nothing to do with God or with Jesus A.S.If we take the red letter Bible 90@ is in black the writing of Pauline Christianity.I will still put out the challenge that Jesus did not see Paul nor did Jesus hear the word Christian or Christianity.Remember Jesus never said he was God or where Jesus said worship me.This was the mischief created by Saul the Jew. peace to you. Ismail. |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 11 September 2013 at 10:15pm
Justgivemethetruth is a joke. You really believe Christians are that st**id? Hang on, who? Perverting the grace... who? try reading the actual books instead of five minute web searches. Bet you haven't even read the verses referenced in your own copy/paste. That, at least would be a good place to start. No use posting unless you have an inkling. Your credibility...just asking. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 12 September 2013 at 10:23pm
| Mr webber,I am glad that you had a look at the website that i posted.What i am not surprised is that you attack website but you have nothing to say about the verses i posted and then you question my credibility????play the ball not the man.Do you have anything to say about Paul the deceiver? |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 13 September 2013 at 5:34am
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Hi iec,
Quote: PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit: "But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16 Response: --- So I see you are still interested in Paul. And you found the word �guile� and you thought Paul was deceitful. --- But the first meaning in the dictionary is �craft, or cunning.� --- So we have to check a little history to find out what happened in Corinth. Corinth was a bustling seaport city, the hub of world commerce, with all that goes with it, --- with a degraded culture and an idolatrous religion. Along with Christians who lived there, Paul started a Church in Corinth. --- There were some genuine believers and the Church grew, but some of the people were disobedient and caused division, so, others contacted Paul, to give advice. --- He wrote 1 Corinthians, in which he exhorted them to be faithful to God. --- Two of their problems were immorality and idolatry. --- This is written in 1 Corinthians 5: 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles�that a man has his father�s wife! --- (this must obviously have been his stepmother, --- or else it would have been his own mother.) 2 And you are puffed up (arrogant), and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you, (and put out of the Church.) And he gave this great verse, which is a truth from God in 1 Corinthians 10: 13 �No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.� --- And anything that takes the place of God is an idol, and Paul said again: 14 �Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.� The Bible dictionary says in the intro to 2 Corinthians, Quote: �Since Paul�s first letter, the Corinthian Church had been swayed by false teachers who stirred the people against him. --- Paul had sent the letter with Timothy and on his return to Ephesus where Paul was, he brought the report of the opposition that had developed against him in Corinth. And Paul made a brief and painful visit to the Corinthians. --- End of quote. (Normally a visiting Apostle or Evangelist would be announced so the people would prepare for him, and the hypocrites would be on their best behavior. --- However, if you drop in unexpectedly, you see what is really happening, --- and this seems to be the crafty thing that Paul did.) --- It was a painful trip because of the hypocrisy and immorality among them, so they were creating problems that could not be solved from a distance, if at all. Now we will go to the verses in 2 Corinthians 12: 14 Now for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be burdensome to you; for I do not seek yours, but you. For the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. 15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved. --- (You may not understand this, but when you lead someone to Faith in God and in following Christ, they become a responsibility like a child in a family, so you teach them to follow their commitment. --- When they turn away, you are grieved.) --- Paul was a tentmaker by trade, so he could often support himself, but usually the Church would pay the expenses. --- However, he says he would be supported by others and not be a burden to the Church. 16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning! 17 Did I take advantage of you by any of those whom I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps? 19 Again, do you think that we excuse ourselves to you? We speak before God in Christ. But we do all things, beloved, for your edification (to build you up). 20 For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest there be contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults; 21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me (perhaps with sadness among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced. --- This was Paul�s exhortation to the hypocrites who had gone back to the ways of the world. --- As always is the case, there are some true believers, so there are divisions between them and the hypocrites, --- and the devil has a �hayday� in such a Church. Placid |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 13 September 2013 at 11:06pm
What I had to say about the verses was more of a question, did you read them? I also asked who Jude was talking about. Jude know Paul by name, why did he not just say Paul? Simple, that's not who he was talking about. Please explain how John 2:22 has any relevance at all. Looks like the deceiver is the one who did the website. No matter, looks like Placid has pretty much spelled out your first "problem". Doesn't look to me that he copy/pasted anything, which means he spent much time on it. Def worth the read. I understand play the ball, not the man, but you have to take some responsibility for bringing this goop to the surface. Either you made the website and stand behind it, having all proof to back up all the preposterous statements, or you did a speed search for dirt, which was it? ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 14 September 2013 at 5:28am
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Hi Placid,
Thank you for the explanation.I would like to point out the true meaning of the word guile. guile Use Guile in a sentence guile [gahyl] Show IPA noun insidious cunning in attaining a goal; crafty or artful deception; duplicity. Origin: 1175�1225; Middle English < Old French < Germanic; akin to wile Synonyms trickery, fraud, craft. See deceit. If Paul said he used deceit then that is what it means no matter what label you give it.Spin it anyway you like. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 14 September 2013 at 5:29am
| Thank you you mr Webber,i notice you do not have much to say on the topic. |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 15 September 2013 at 1:33pm
I'm still waiting for Mahdi the seeker to answer my first question. Maybe you have a better answer. It's interesting how many questions get skipped/ignored. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 September 2013 at 2:00pm
Greetings iec, Why did you leave off the rest..? guile [gaɪl]. n. clever or crafty character or behaviour. as used in a sentence: "he used all his guile and guts to free himself from the muddle he was in" So you see, guile means the use of ones wits, or wisdom. It does not necessarily mean deceit as in a negative context but rather the use of subtlety in achieving a goal or purpose. It is obvious that Paul had no ill intentions so it would hardly make sense to take quile in the negative context of its meaning. Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 16 September 2013 at 10:49pm
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crafty - marked by skill in deception; "cunning men often pass for wise"; "deep political machinations"; "a foxy scheme"; "a slick evasive answer"; "sly as a fox"; "tricky Dick"; "a wily old attorney"
foxy, guileful, knavish, sly, tricksy, wily, cunning, dodgy, tricky, slick artful - marked by skill in achieving a desired end especially with cunning or craft; "the artful dodger"; "an artful choice of metaphors" |
Posted By: Al Saadiqeen21
Date Posted: 17 September 2013 at 9:04am
Webber < Don't come with that pasting line etc etc , just because you disagree , Paul is a Deceiver and a Liarrrrr plus his body house the devil . The Book of Romans 3 ; 7 , States , And I quote ; For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
The Book of Romans 7 ; 14 - 24 States , And I quote ;For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? By the way Paul the liar/ devil never met The Prophet / Messiah Isa , Yashu'a , Jesus Christ . If you going step to me don't come with any Story-line or Hadith with backing it up with Scriptures . Also don't come with weak excuse just because you disagree , I see that as sign of Insecurity and Weakness , I Challenge you to prove that The Prophet / Messiah Isa , Yashu'a
, Jesus Christ ( Pbuh ) Ever met him , According to the scriptures without your storyline ok .
------------- One doesn't go to school let His / her's mind to die , They go to school so that their mind will come alive . |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 September 2013 at 1:48am
I could likewise challenge you to prove that Muhammad ever 'met' the angel Gabriel. In the case of Paul I would say the proof is in the change that came over him and his life... and the fact that he chose to live his life with the trials of persecution that came with spreading the Word of Yahshua. Salaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 19 September 2013 at 6:29pm
Gee, was Paul all of these things?? What would you call this guy? (sorry, no hyperlink) http://ireporterstv.co/church-members-mistreat-homeless-man-in-church-unaware-it-is-their-pastor-in-disguise/ ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Al Saadiqeen21
Date Posted: 20 September 2013 at 3:06pm
I could likewise challenge you to prove that Muhammad ever 'met' the angel Gabriel. In the case of Paul I would say the proof is in the change that came over him and his life... and the fact that he chose to live his life with the trials of persecution that came with spreading the Word of Yahshua. Salaam and blessings to you, Caringheart check my post where I I Challenge weeber ok paul the devil and a liarrrrr ------------- One doesn't go to school let His / her's mind to die , They go to school so that their mind will come alive . |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 21 September 2013 at 12:20pm
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Hi iec,
Quote: If Paul said he used deceit then that is what it means no matter what label you give it.Spin it anyway you like. Response: --- Sorry to be slow at answering. --- Have you ever crashed a party? --- When you surprise people you can catch them red handed in what they do when you are not there. --- That is also called detective work. Because you have such a thing against Paul, and don�t believe anything about him you are slandering Jesus too, because Jesus said that Paul was a �chosen vessel,� --- and He sent him as an Apostle to the Gentiles. We don�t have to defend Paul, because Jesus called him, and instructed him throughout his missionary journeys. --- The word Apostle means, �One sent,� as an ambassador, as it says in Acts 22: �Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him (Jesus) saying to me, �Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.� 21 Then He said to me, �Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.�� Now you don�t have to believe our Faith, or what the Scripture teaches about Jesus and Paul. --- But I am surprised that you have such an interest in expressing your unbelief. (It really shouldn�t matter to you what we believe, should it?) --- You no doubt feel that the Quran updated the Scriptures, so let�s look at a verse in Surah 3: 55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute --- �I will take thee and raise thee to Myself,� --- is translated by others this way: �I am terminating your life on earth,� --- �I will cause you to die a natural death.� --- If you check the original Arabic, you will find it refers to physical death. --- �And clear you of the falsehoods of the blasphemers,� --- �I will make those who follow thee �superior� to those who reject faith,� --- (So that means that those of us who believe in Jesus along with Paul, will have a good standing with God, does it not?) And the next verse says: 56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." Placid |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 24 September 2013 at 6:51am
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Hi placid,
Response: --- Sorry to be slow at answering. --- Have you ever crashed a party? No i have not. Because you have such a thing against Paul, and don�t believe anything about him you are slandering Jesus too No i did not slander anyone.I merely quoted a verse from the Bible in which Paul says 2 Corinthians 12:16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to ... biblehub.com/2_corinthians/12-16.htm But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. He sent him as an Apostle to the Gentiles. Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following ... - Bible biblehub.com/matthew/10-5.htm These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of ... biblehub.com/matthew/15-24.htm But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house ... But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house. This is the problem what Jesus said you choose to ignore.Paul nailed whatever Jesus taught to the cross. I know you mean well but in the new Testament 90% of the words of Paul are black and 10% of what Jesus said is in red ,thus said that the new Testament has got nothing of the teachings of Jesus unequivocal. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 27 September 2013 at 6:08am
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Hi iec,
Quote: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Response: --- When Jesus began His ministry he went to various places, like this occasion in Matthew 4: 24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them. However, when Jesus had chosen 12 to be His Apostles and began to train them, He sent them only to the Jews. --- All of them, being Jews, were prejudiced against the Samaritans and the Gentiles so this was their first mission on their own in Matthew 10: 1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: �Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, �The kingdom of heaven is at hand.� 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. After their three years of training, traveling with Him, and becoming Evangelists who could teach others the Message of the Gospel, Jesus told them that He would be put to death, and that they would carry on the Ministry. --- Judas betrayed Jesus, but the other 11 remained together, and after Jesus was Resurrected, He came to the 11 and spoke to them in Matthew 28: 16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, �All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.� Amen. --- This is called �The Great Commission.� Jesus appeared on earth for 40 days after His Resurrection, and at the end of that time He met with them again in Acts 1: 4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, �which,� He said, �you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.� 7 And He said to them, �It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.� 9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day�s journey. 13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.--- (Notice that Jesus' mother Mary, and His brothers were there also.) These were the same 11 Apostles, and some had more than one name. I have a little booklet that gives a short history of where each Apostle went. Paul was not one of them, but would have known them as well as Jesus, when they travelled with Him because Paul was in Jerusalem, and was a Pharisee. He was not mentioned Till Acts 7 and 8, --- which leads up to his conversion in 9. Paul was the Apostle that Jesus commissioned to go to the Gentiles in Acts 22: 17 �Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, �Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.� 21 Then He said to me, �Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.�� --- An Apostle is �One sent,� as an ambassador. --- So Paul was a later Apostle to the Gentiles. Placid |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 28 September 2013 at 8:32pm
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But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
I think the misunderstanding here is that you are thinking Paul used "guile" to be crafy. What this means is he was crafty, (went to the church unannounced) and caught them with guile. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 29 September 2013 at 10:56am
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Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 07 October 2013 at 6:39am
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Hi iec,
To give you references would not help much as you wouldn't likely look them up. However, the conclusion is here in Matthew 28: 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, �All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.� Amen. --- This is called �The Great Commission.� |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 08 October 2013 at 11:32am
Scholars such as Eduard Riggenbach (in "Der Trinitarische Taufbefehl') and J.H. Oldham et al (in "The Missionary Motive") assert that even the very concept did not exist until after the year 1650, If this concept was coined after 1650 then someone was playing with scripture. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 06 November 2013 at 11:15am
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Hi iec,
The term, "The Great Commission" is not part of any Scripture verse. --- It is not in the Douay which was translated about 1600 from Latin, and it is not in the King James which was translated shortly there after from the Greek Manuscripts. --- It is in Study Bibles as a title only. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 29 November 2013 at 7:54am
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Hi Al,
Quote from the Challenge to Webber: Saul , Paul, ( Never ) was a Disciple of Isa , Jesus ! How do I know ? According to Paul, Jesus chose him as his instrument for carrying his teaching to The Gentiles who were not of the House of Israel . ( Acts 9 ; 15 - 16 ). Paul acclaimed vision is the only evidence Paul could produce for his bid for the leadership of The New Church Paul , would raise , No wonder the Jews were highly skeptical about the whole claim and would not listen to him . Let's take a look in The Bible where Paul contradicts himself three times . Response: --- I see that you have a general dislike for our Apostle Paul. --- Except for the Apostle Paul to the Gentiles we may not have heard the Gospel. I say �we� because Muslim Nations were Gentiles too. --- However, Saul, who became Paul, started out persecuting the followers of Jesus, --- but as a follower himself, became the �persecuted.� We can look at the verses you gave on his conversion, but first it is good to know his background. Saul was from Tarsus in Cilicia. He was a Jew, but a Roman citizen, and a Pharisee. --- He studied in Jerusalem under Gamaliel. Quote: �the Jewish law teacher of Paul the Apostle in Acts 22:3� He would have been in Jerusalem during the time that Jesus was preaching and gathering disciples and appointing His Apostles. As an upcoming leader among the Pharisees who, a short time later could lead a group of perhaps the Roman guard, having authority to arrest Christians in Damascus, --- he may well have been there at the trial of Jesus, or among the crowd that called out �Crucify Him, Crucify Him.� And the Pharisees felt somewhat satisfied when Jesus was crucified at the hands of the Romans, but Jesus had to die to be Resurrected from the dead. --- Though Jesus had fed the 5000, and was known to everyone in Jerusalem and all Judea, --- after His ascension the close followers were only about 120 (Acts 1:15), so they wouldn�t appear to the Pharisees as a great threat. Jesus had said, �Wait in the City of Jerusalem until you are endued with Power from on high.� He was referring to the Holy Spirit that fell on them on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. (Read about it). --- Peter stood up with the Apostles and began to preach, which he had never done before. --- As a result of his preaching, and the evidence of the Holy Spirit, there were 3000 converted and added that first day (Acts 2:41). --- Within a short time the numbers grew to �five thousand men,� (Acts 4:4) --- If there were 5000 men, they would represent families, so this became the problem to the Pharisees, who felt, having Roman support that they would attack them and arrest a bunch of the leaders and the rest may scatter. --- So Saul became involved. --- The Pharisees had no authority to kill anyone, but they could arrest them and have them put in Jail. --- But this happened, which was against the law, but was a result of mob violence in acts 7: 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, �Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.� 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, �Lord, do not charge them with this sin.� And when he had said this, he fell asleep (in death). This was the first mention of Saul in Acts 7, but he had been there in Jerusalem all of the time and was no doubt at their council meetings, though unnamed.. --- While the Pharisees thought the persecution would slow them down, many Christians left Jerusalem and Judea, but it says, in Acts 8: 1 Now Saul was consenting to his death. --- At that time a great persecution arose against the Church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the Apostles. 3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the Church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison. 4 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word --- So, you see, what the Pharisees tried to stop was spread even more. And finally this statement in Acts 9: 1Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. --- This is who Saul was, --- the �terrorist' to the Christians. (So as not to get too long, I will follow with the verses next.) Placid |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 30 November 2013 at 5:26am
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To continue with Paul from Acts 9:
1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, �Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?� 5 And he said, �Who are You, Lord?� Then the Lord said, �I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.� 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, �Lord, what do You want me to do?� Then the Lord said to him, �Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.� 7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank. The first thing to note is that Paul didn�t write the Book of Acts, but it was written by the Historian, Luke who had written the Gospel. He was not with Paul at this time, but joined him later. Another thing to notice was that the bright light that they saw, blinded Paul, so he wouldn�t have seen whether they remained standing or fell to the ground, so Luke would have gotten the details later. --- Notice that they led Paul by the hand into Damascus and found him a place to stay. --- Notice next that he sat there for �three days, without his sight, and he ate or drank nothing.� --- He was fasting and praying (v11). --- As a religious Pharisee he thought he was doing God�s will by putting Christians in prison and getting them off the street. --- Now, being blinded, his career was finished, what could he do now but pray to God and seek His forgiveness? --- People suffer for the wrong they have done, and while the Lord forgave Paul, He said, �I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name�s sake.� 10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, �Ananias.� And he said, �Here I am, Lord.� 11 So the Lord said to him, �Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.� 13 Then Ananias answered, �Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.� 15 But the Lord said to him, �Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name�s sake.� 17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, �Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.� 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. 19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. --- Notice the words in v15, �He is �a chosen vessel of Mine� to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.� His next testimony before the Jews was given over 20 years later in Acts 22: 6 �Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, �Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?� 8 So I answered, �Who are You, Lord?� And He said to me, �I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.� 9 �And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, �What shall I do, Lord?� And the Lord said to me, �Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.� 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus. --- Is that not the same testimony? (A little more detail later) Placid |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 02 December 2013 at 10:02am
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Hi ,
You seem t know a lot about Paul,could you please explain this verse. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. The meaning of kick against the pricks???? please explain. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 03 December 2013 at 12:33pm
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Hi iec,
Quote: The meaning of kick against the pricks???? please explain. Response: --- Paul was well educated in Jewish law and was a Pharisee, no doubt with great ambition for his life. --- When the Christians increased, he let his hateful nature take over his reason and began fighting against the Christians. --- Sometimes if you want to sabotage a movement you arrest some leaders and put them in prison, so without a leader the others perhaps disperse. --- However, with the Pharisee�s, --- their first efforts seemed to have no effect, --- and Paul became the terrorist to the Christians. --- Everything the Christians did infuriated him and these were the 'goads' or 'pricks' that he was fighting against. In the King James it says pricks (like sharp needles or thorns.) In the New King James it uses the word �goads� which is like a �cattle prod� that gives a little electric shock (like a pin prick) to move the cattle on against their will. --- If you will forgive me for saying so, that is what you are doing. --- You are re-acting against the accuracy of the Bible, and the Gospel Message of Jesus, the same way that Paul did. --- Each time you say the crucifixion is a fairytale, or the Bible is beyond repair, you are setting yourself up to be knocked off your high horse, just like Paul did. I have no interest in you being a Christian, but you could be a more understanding Muslim, then you might become a learner, instead of a critic. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 04 December 2013 at 10:08pm
Hi Placid, Let me help you,against the pricks means between the legs of a man on his penis. iec |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 December 2013 at 9:02pm
Greetings Ismail, Why would you make this assumption, and statement, when you have been given a reasonable, and studied, answer? Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 05 December 2013 at 10:02pm
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Hi Caringheart,
I knew you would respond.Yes the words that they used are sometimes beyond description.The word priks has changed to goads.We call this verbal diarrhea. Greetings, iec |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 21 December 2013 at 11:29pm
κεντρα from kenteo (to prick); a point ("centre"), i.e. a sting (figuratively, poison) or goad (figuratively, divine impulse):--prick, sting. Obviously not beyond description, and not changed thus the verbal diarrhea seems to be yours. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 07 January 2014 at 9:32am
Now use your sting against this verse and see where it fits. it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. |