A question for Muslims
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Topic: A question for Muslims
Posted By: TG12345
Subject: A question for Muslims
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 3:43am
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This is a question to Muslims on Islamicity. Salaam Alaikum. I hope you are well. I found some interesting hadiths that contain something Muhammad said. They come from Muslim and Bukhari, so unless it can be proven otherwise, I will assume they are sound. Muhammad evidently stated that Adam was 60 cubits tall and that people have been decreasing in height continuously from the day of Adam's creation to the time Muhammad stated the words below (sometime in the 7th century AD). ) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and form of adam. Since then the creation of adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time." (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=74&translator=1&start=0&number=246 - #74 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=74&translator=1&start=0&number=246#246 - #246 ) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=adam+cubits&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all - Search the word adam cubits in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta) (2) Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created adam in His own image with His length of sixty cubits, and as He created him He told him to greet that group, and that was a party of angels sitting there, and listen to the response that they give him, for it would form his greeting and that of his offspring. He then went away and said: Peace be upon you! They (the angels) said: May there be peace upon you and the Mercy of Allah, and they made an addition of" Mercy of Allah". So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adarn, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day. (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=040&translator=2&start=0&number=6809 - #040 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=040&translator=2&start=0&number=6809#6809 - #6809 ) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=adam+cubits&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all - http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation. http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=543#543 - Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta) There is no way to prove or disprove the claim that Adam was 60 cubits tall. As both the Bible and Quran teach, there were times when giants existed on the earth. Unlike the Quran, the Bible does not teach that Adam lived in heaven prior to his coming to earth. However, what I want to examine is what Muhammad said afterwards, namely that people have been decreasing in stature/size/height since the creation of Adam up until the time Muhammad spoke these words. Are you aware that the height of people in Europe between the middle of the first century and the 7th century (when Muhammad began preaching) fluctuated and significantly increased at times- like between the fourth and sixth century? Although people in Europe in the 7th century were shorter than people in the 6th century, they were in fact taller than those living in the 1st and 3th centuries. Scroll to page 13 to see the table showing human height between the 1st and 18th centuries AD. http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/wwl/koepke_baten_twomillennia.pdf - http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/wwl/...omillennia.pdf I am unaware of stats for Africa or Asia or the Americas or other parts of the world, but historical evidence shows that in some parts of the Europe, instead of continuously decreasing in stature from the beginning of time to the time of Muhammad, the growth of people fluctuated between the 1st and 7th century and have for the most part been on the rise. How would you reconcile this data with Muhammad's statement that people have been decreasing in size between the creation of the world and the 7th century AD? Another interesting fact: Tutankhamun, who lived 1332 BC � 1323 BC, was 5 feet 11 inches tall. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061128084450.htm - Radiologists Attempt To Solve Mystery Of Tut's Demise The average height of a Roman soldier was 6 inches. The Roman Empire came into existence in 27 BC http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/%7Emadsb/home/war/vegetius/dere03.php#03 - Digital | Attic - Warfare : De Re Militari Book I: The Selection and Training of New Levies If people have been decreasing in stature starting with the creation of Adam and up to the 7th century AD, how could it be possible that Tutankhamun who lived and died almost a milennia before Rome became an empire was slightly shorter than the average Roman soldier? Clearly, people have not been continuously decreasing in size between the time of Adam's creation and the time of Muhammad. How do you reconcile this evidence with Muhammad's words? Looking forward to hearing from you. Allahu Akhbar. Blessed be His Name. |
Replies:
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 6:09am
Now that's short. I can imagine the entire Roman army gathered and fighting a fierce battle on tiny horses, in the back garder. I wonder how many Romans you could fit in a Mini  ------------- الله |
TG12345 wrote:Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 6:18am
LOL my bad. The source said the average height of one of these guys was 6 feet. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 6:39am
What's a back garder, by the way? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 6:48am
| Back garders and 6 inch soldiers aside, how do you reconcile the fact that, despite Muhammad's teaching, historical evidence points to the fact that people have not been continuously decreasing in stature up to the 7th century AD? |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 7:24am
It's a special garden for little people
------------- الله |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 7:28am
OK, I am derailing my own thread temporarily but I really need to ask you... when you were a kid did you watch the Smurfs? LOL that was one of the coolest shows ever!!!! |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 7:56am
Yup i used to watch those little blue things in arabic! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycsUllvZ9gs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycsUllvZ9gs ------------- الله |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 9:10am
An example is when the British fought the Indians in the 18th century, they claimed the people there, in the North West Frontier were giants. They were undoubtedly taller than the British. The British people were shorter in the 18th century than they are now because of the wealth and hence the food that is available to them. Another example is the Japanese. The modern Japanese enjoy American junk food and this has resulted in these people growing in height. Your data is useless as we need the evidence to compare people who are 90 feet tall, so if you don't have that evidence then the likelihood IS that people are decreasing in height. As a last point I hope you are not expecting people to decrease in size to a point where there will be people 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall walking around the earth. The hadiths you've posted tells me how amazing the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) really was, he was given knowledge and wisdom that is truly amazing. I'm really looking forward to seeing 90 feet tall Prophet Adam (Alayhi Salaam) on Judgement Day Insha'Allah. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 9:16am
Well that made my day. Typos can be fun.------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 9:19am
Hi TG, I am sorry your thread is so derailed but I am having such fun reading this. I loved the smurfs, and now I am picturing little Roman smurfs on horseback fighting battles. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 9:21am
Wow Rational, that's cool. You had the smurfs in arabic? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 1:10pm
Yeah, When I found that video on youtube it brought back some memories. I still remember those voices. ~25 years ago! ------------- الله |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 1:13pm
Insha'Allah brother. ------------- الله |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 3:01pm
Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren. Nowhere does the Bible say that the Garden of Eden was located in Heaven. It also doesn't instruct believers to insult non-Christians. As a "former Christian", you should know these things.
If Muhammad said it had decreased in size, maybe he would have been right. But he didn't say that. He said that humanity had been decreasing in size continuously from the creation of Adam to his time.
Why do you need to find someone 90 feet tall to disprove what Muhammad said? He didn't say that people are smaller than Adam was. He said that from the time of Adam to the 7th century, they had been continuously decreasing in size. That statement is quite simply not true. People's heights had gone up and down between the time of Adam's creation and the 7th century AD, due to a variety of factors. However, they have not been decreasing continuously. My "useless data" indicates that at least for several centuries between the creation of Adam and the 7th century, the height of human beings at time rose and at other times decreased. This shows that people have not been continuously been getting smaller until the 7th century.
Of course not. I'm not the one who claims they have been continuously decreasing in size, and I don't believe the person who made that claim was a prophet.
He was an intelligent man and he sincerely believed he was serving and following God. However, some of the things he said were clearly false. This is one of them.
Does your faith allow you to assume you will enter Heaven? However, if you really want to get to Paradise and see Adam and Moses and others of God's followers, you need to put your faith in Christ. |
Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 3:27pm
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This is the best topic I've read in weeks!
I was too old for the Smurfs myself but the kids have a DVD of 'Night at the Museum' (1 or 2, i forget which). It features some Roman soldiers that are about 6 inches high. TG - I love the diminishing font size. ------------- God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 6:56pm
When King Tut was killed, it's widely believed that he was a teenager at the time. So the answer is he had time to grow.
Because by faith I can believe in this statement. You on the other hand want to disprove it and for that purpose you need to find the skeleton of a90 feet man. Why do you find it hard to believe this?
Like I said you can't produce data that only compares a few generations. Do you believe it's possible that a grandfather who is tall, his son who is short and his grandson who is tall can occur within just three generations?
In that case, why don't you just get lost? Stop trying to disprove Islam and to discredit the holy Prophet of God (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). I wish I could use stronger language on this forum.
It's only your opinion. So you can keep it, no probs. He was only a warner so those who want to believe then believe and those who want to disbelieve then disbelieve. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala told Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) not to cry for the disbelievers as hi only duty was to convey the message.
No. What I meant was that ALL humanity from Prophet Adam (Alayhi Salaam) to whoever the last person to die will be in rows in front of our Maker before Judgement. I was just hoping that I'd get a glimpse of him so I can see what the father humanity looked like. :)
I really want to see Paradise ringo, hence the reason for my conversion. At least I have 1 chance of being forgiven now. I don't associate anybody with God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala Maker of heaven and earth. To Him belongs all the dominion and Majesty. There is none comparable to Him and he forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 4:18pm
Good point, actually. Unlike king Tutankhamun, Ramses II was not a teenager when he died. He was 5 feet 7 inches tall. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ramesses2intro.htm He lived 700 years before Rome was a Republic and almost 1200 years before it became an Empire. Yet he was shorter than the average Roman soldier. The book describing the height of Roman soldiers being 5 feet 10 inches to 6 feet was written in the 4th century AD. Another interesting discovery is that of the Terracota Army- thousands of life sized statues of Chinese soldiers made during the time of Emperor Qin, who lived in the 3rd century BC. The statues of the men range from 5 feet 8 inches to 6 feet 2 inches, with the commanders being 6 feet 3 inches tall. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ramesses2intro.htm Ramses II was shorter than them, too. So was his father, Seti I who was 5 feet 7 inches tall. http://www.reference.com/browse/Seti+I Nesyamun was an Egyptian pagan priest who lived in 1100 BC. His mummy was 5 feet 6 inches. http://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/content/articles/2008/08/14/history_nesyamun_feature.shtml King Thutmose the IIIrd, who lived in the 15th century BC (prior to Tutankhamun, Ramses II, the Roman Army or Nesyamun)... was barely 5 feet tall. http://ancienthistory.netscype.com/article/thutmose-iii-interesting-facts Lindow Man, a mummy of a man who lived between 2 BC and 119 AD in Great Britain, was 168 centimetres, or approximately 5 feet 6 inches tall. Yet only 3-4 centuries afterwards, the average height of Roman soldiers ranged from 5 feet 10 inches to 6 feet! And Muhammad claimed people have been getting shorter throughout history up to his time! [/QUOTE]
If I wanted to disprove that people are shorter than Adam allegedly was, a 90 foot skeleton would indeed be necessary. However, that is not what I am trying to do. I am disproving the statement that people have been continually diminishing in height up to the time of Muhammad. If that were true, you would not be finding mummies of Ancient Egyptians who lived a millennia before De Re Militari was written who were almost all shorter than the minimal height of a Roman soldier! Why do I find it hard to believe that people had been diminishing in stature up to the time of Muhammad? Because they hadn't!
The Egyptian pharaohs who reigned before 1200 BC and the Roman soldiers of the 5th century AD lived more than "a few generations" apart. [/QUOTE]
Tell you what, instead of telling me to get lost and lamenting the fact you can't talk on this forum like you can talk on the street after coming out of a nightclub... why don't you prove to me that people in fact had been decreasing continuously in stature until the time of Muhammad? There is so much historical evidence. It should be a cinch for a man of your great intelligence to prove me wrong and once and for all show that between the time of Adam and the time of Muhammad, people had been continuously getting smaller! Go ahead!
Perhaps. What we know for certain is that God didn't tell Muhammad that people had been continuously getting smaller between the creation of Adam and his time. [/QUOTE]
Wow, what a way to insult your religion. You are claiming that "mujahidin" are people who blow people up who debate with Muslims on an internet forum. If Robert Spencer was reading this, it would give him only more ammunition for his attacks on Muslims. Fortunately, I know that most Muslims do not act the way you do. I am beginning to doubt how serious you actually are about your faith. BTW my name is not "ringo".
You don't know who God is, unfortunately. You are right about one thing. He is the greatest, and He does punish and forgive whom He wills.
He is indeed the greatest! Blessed be His Name! |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 7:14pm
Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) or the One True God?
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 7:55pm
The One True God is Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit, like He is both Almighty and All-Merciful |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 2:46am
Shirk!
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 6:30am
Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren. No, I am merely stating the reality of who God is. You are denying Him and what He has done for you. BTW care to return to the topic we were discussing? I have provided more evidence that people have definitely not been decreasing in height up to the time of Muhammad. Is there anything you can say to disprove that? Or are you going to continue to ignore obvious historical evidence to the contrary and go on asserting that you believe God told Muhammad something that turned out to be obviously not true? |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 6:50pm
I've already answered your silly question in my first reply on this thread. It's not my fault you have the comprehension skills of a 2 year old (sorry to insult all 2 year olds as they can be quiete intelligent).
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 7:30pm
No you didn't. You stated that King Tutankhamun was a teenager when he died, and hence would have probably grown taller. You also told me I can't present data that compares "a few generations", and gave the example of a child, his dad, and grand dad. I affirmed you may be right about King Tut. I then showed you that the Ancient Egyptians and Roman soldiers whose heights we were examining lived something like 1500 years apart. I will post my response again. I am making it both italic and bigger so you won't miss it like you obviously did last time. Unlike king Tutankhamun, Ramses II was not a teenager when he died. He was 5 feet 7 inches tall. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ramesses2intro.htm He lived 700 years before Rome was a Republic and almost 1200 years before it became an Empire. Yet he was shorter than the average Roman soldier. The book describing the height of Roman soldiers being 5 feet 10 inches to 6 feet was written in the 4th century AD. Another interesting discovery is that of the Terracota Army- thousands of life sized statues of Chinese soldiers made during the time of Emperor Qin, who lived in the 3rd century BC. The statues of the men range from 5 feet 8 inches to 6 feet 2 inches, with the commanders being 6 feet 3 inches tall. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ramesses2intro.htm Ramses II was shorter than them, too. So was his father, Seti I who was 5 feet 7 inches tall. http://www.reference.com/browse/Seti+I Nesyamun was an Egyptian pagan priest who lived in 1100 BC. His mummy was 5 feet 6 inches. http://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/content/articles/2008/08/14/history_nesyamun_feature.shtml King Thutmose the IIIrd, who lived in the 15th century BC (prior to Tutankhamun, Ramses II, the Roman Army or Nesyamun)... was barely 5 feet tall. http://ancienthistory.netscype.com/article/thutmose-iii-interesting-facts Lindow Man, a mummy of a man who lived between 2 BC and 119 AD in Great Britain, was 168 centimetres, or approximately 5 feet 6 inches tall. Yet only 3-4 centuries afterwards, the average height of Roman soldiers ranged from 5 feet 10 inches to 6 feet! And Muhammad claimed people have been getting shorter throughout history up to his time! You responded by getting mad and telling me I have the comprehension skills of a 2 year old. In your zeal to show how st**id I am, you misspelled the word quite. It isn't spelled quiete, it's spelled quite.  If you have anything to add to the conversation other than insults, go ahead. You are clearly unable to prove my arguments wrong, and therefore need to resort to your old tactic of using insults. If that's how you deal with problems, go ahead. Just make sure you spell properly, especially in a sentence when you are mocking someone else's intellectual capabilities. Allah Akhbar! |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 3:50am
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When two people fight the way you two are, in India they say as if two birds are hitting eachother with their beaks.
No offense intended but I had a good laugh at your beak-fight! ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 6:24am
Salaam Alaikum, Nausheen. Ohhh I am soo very much offended! If I hear another "fowl" comment like that from you again, I may peck you with my beak!  Just kidding, no offense taken. If you feel like jumping into this conversation and giving your input to the question I posed, you are more than welcome to. Glad to hear from you again btw. Have an awesome day. |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 7:06am
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Walaikum assalam TG,
Thanks for inviting, but I have no comments on this. will wait for your next Q 
Its almost midnight here, so goodnight! ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 8:36am
Alaikum Salaam, Nausheen. No problem at all. Tisbah al khaeyr! |