Do Christians follow any dietary Laws?
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Topic: Do Christians follow any dietary Laws?
Posted By: honeto
Subject: Do Christians follow any dietary Laws?
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 7:44am
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The Quran says it is OK for a Muslim to eat the food of the people of the book, Christians and Jews. Jews follow a dietary law, and the food that is prepared according to that law is Ok for a Muslim to eat. I do not see any Christians following the dietary law mentioned in their book. I know if a food prepared by them without following the dietary law is not OK for a Muslim. Why do Christians do not follow the law? if you say you do , which one?
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Replies:
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 2:28am
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honeto wrote:Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 27 December 2012 at 8:41pm
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Lol, new to the site, this caught my eye. A real Christian should know you follow certain dietary laws and descreetly hide the bacon, ham, and pork chops under the mashed potatos. Actually, Christians who know anything about Christianity do have dietary laws. These laws were outlined by Paul as he was the one ministered to Gentiles, and most Christians you know are probably Gentiles. What's interesting is that Halal is not always legal in NA. |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 4:14am
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They do but they don't care. Pig is forbidden for them just like it is for muslims but they don't like talking about it. I know because my wifes father is christain and he himself told me that he knows its forbidden for them but yet it's fine with them, suggesting that they don't follow or care about thier own faith (though i must admit he doesnt like it, but his wife does). Same with alchahol, it's forbidden for them. They don't care because thier books have been corrupted.
May Allah guide all of us. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 6:32pm
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Webber,
Can you point out verses that show commandments or laws outlining dietary laws God revealed to Paul. Did God sent any dietary laws through Jesus? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 30 December 2012 at 12:02am
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As for alcohol, well, as long as you can get kosher wine we know it was never forbidden for the Jews. It was very common place during the time of Jesus and Jesus warned about the abuses, but never said don't. The alcohol ban was a Muhammad thing although you'll find most pious Christians do not drink. Hi Honeto, I don't recall Jesus ever talking about dietary laws. That wasn't "the law" He was concerned with. He also cared less about the laws made by the scribes and pharisees which challenged Him in Matthew 15 about the disciples not washing before eating bread. They called it "tradition of the elders" Jesus called them on their wishy wash everything habits, then turned to the crowd and said Hear, and understand: Not that which
goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth,
this defileth a man. In those days bread was used two ways. It was a staple food, and it was also used as a napkin that was thrown to the dogs. It was Peter that came to Jesus and said, "can you explain that?" Jesus does in verses 15 thru 20. Now I don't see anything in there about eating a pig, but in His explanation it would/could be understood as a possibility if the reasoning behind pork was a health issue. I doubt Jesus ever ate pork just for the likely reason it was no doubt forbidden to sell in the Jewish markets. The same with the rest of the unclean list, and whatever offered to idols. Gentiles from the surrounding areas never knew what the big deal was with pork and no history on it so why not eat it. Besides, the Jews got all the sheep. My Uncle had a farm with an assortment of animals including pigs. They don't play in their poop. They roll in mud in the heat of the day, scratch it off later. I have a meat plant inspector friend who can tell you lots more about how pork is the "right" meat. He also explained to me once how certain byproducts can become kosher, but that's getting away from the subject. Another story Christians use. Peter, the disciple who asked Jesus for expansion on the what defiles what story gets a vision from the heavens. A sheet descends full of all forms of common and unclean animals and creaping things, etc. starts in Acts 10:10. He hears a voice say Peter, kill and eat. Peter says No way, I never eat the common nor unclean, the voice says, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. Anyway, Peters lesson was not about eating a pig, it was to prepare him for the calling of Cornelius. Jews weren't into Italians so Peter would have been reluctant if not for the vision. As for Paul. Pauls lists are scattered between letters. They are the basic, don't eat blood, strangled, offered to idols, etc. but this was for gentiles, which are not under any Jewish laws to start, so how do you tell them the food they grew up on, abundant in the field are to be left alone. Gentiles flooding the Jewish markets from now on? Not likely to work out well. He was making Christians out of them, not Jews. Sorry, not sure if I answered your question. |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 31 December 2012 at 4:00am
Hi Webber, do you eat pig? |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 31 December 2012 at 4:52pm
The short answer would have to be yes. I was brought up with pork being the other red meat. As a kid I prefered pork over beef any time. Over the years that has changed though and pork is not normally part of my diet. The only time I'd eat pork now is if it was offered by the host. I wouldn't make a scene, insult the cook, nor go hungry.
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Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 01 January 2013 at 3:12am
Thanks, did Jesus (pbuh) eat pig? |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 05 January 2013 at 5:15pm
Your silence is the answer. Thank you.
Next time, try sticking to the point if you can, because that helps. No deflections please. No beating around the bush please. My father in law claims to be a Christian, believes that pig is forbidden in Christianity, but yet he is ok with pig. What does that mean? It means he doesn't care about what he believes in. Simple! |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 8:11am
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My silence is me just seeing your post now. Your father in law was your point, the point you wanted to make...Christians don't care. As for answering your question I'll copy paste what I wrote in my second post. The one you must not have read.
------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 5:07am
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Assalam Alaik Webber,
Since you doubt Jesus ever ate pig and since you are a follower of Jesus (pbuh), it's only sensible that you also not eat pig, even when pig is being offered to you. |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 10:04am
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I understand where you�re coming from; although I�m not sure
I understand the emphasis put on it. Why is it always pig? What about horse,
rabbit, cats, dogs, monkey brains, etc? If I was to take it a step further and only eat what Jesus
ate then I�d be on a diet of bread and boiled fish. As I recall, that�s the
only foods mentioned that Jesus ate. To
emulate Jesus would be very difficult. I�d have to curl my hair and get a deep
suntan, but then we don�t really know that either. A purple seamless robe would
be hard to find and I�d need a few wraps. Sandals wouldn�t work very well in
this snow either. The Jews could care less, matter of fact, Acts 21 explains.
In verse 17 you have Paul and entourage arriving in Jerusalem to meet with the
elders. The elders are happy to hear about Paul�s ministry with the gentiles,
but have some concerns brought up by the Jews that live amongst the gentiles,
one of which is dietary laws. Over the course of the discussion the elders tell
Paul in verse 25 what they have decided�
Paul, knowing that even though the elders had made a
decision that does not mention pork, etc. that it would still be a point of
contention around the Jews that were zealous for the law, (as stated in Acts
21:20) that he better come up with a solution which he stated in Romans 14.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace
and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of
God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the
man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor
do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not
condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he
eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is
sin. This is in keeping with Paul�s statement �Be all things to
all men�. I hear Muslims say �Whaaa, he just told everybody to be a hypocrite�,
but not so. His emphasis was on not causing a brother to stumble. Put it this way. If you and I were to pick up a Jewish
friend and go to a restaurant that served a monstrous buffet of everything,
what would we eat? Let�s just say our Jewish friend is as zealous about it as
you are. Being all things to all men, I would do better to stay
within your dietary laws. Not because of �the� laws but because I wouldn�t want
to cause you or our friend any grief by doing so. Pork would turn your stomachs. If you were to
pick up a spoonful of (halal) locust, (sorry, lack of examples here but that
would turn my stomach already) and our Jewish friend would ask you what type of
locust they were. If not the one and only type that are kosher you�d turn his
stomach as well. I wouldn�t care if you had a pile of shrimp, but our friend
would. How about a steak and a tall glass of milk? The OT says not to boil a
goat in its mother�s milk. That�s been expanded to not include milk and meat at
the same time, (not so Biblical, but kosher�) therefore our Jewish friend would
not be impressed. I bring back a plate of lasagna. All beef, tomatoes, etc.,
smothered in mozzarella cheese, (making myself hungry here) but now I have our
Jewish friend scowling at me because cheese is still dairy. So when our Jewish
friend came back to the table with a glass of wine, I would not be impressed,
not because of any laws but because of past experience. You, on the other hand,
(and I�m not totally sure on this, but because of what Muslim friends have told
me) would either have to ignore it, move to another table, or leave the
restaurant. In order to appease each other�s diets, would we all end up eating
bread and boiled fish? Better we pick a kosher restaurant next time. According to Paul�s direction, bringing pork, horse, rabbit,
snails, w/e to the table would be my sin. Knowing your convictions and eating
it in front of you would be another sin. Tempting you to try it would yet again
be another sin. If I tempted you until you tried it, whoa� I�d best stay home.
Look at the trouble I�m already in for mentioning I�ve eaten pork. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 7:23pm
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It is interesting to see some Christians preaching against eating pork.
Hasan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQQLU4J_pE0&list=PL6E354A95DBA8E3E3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQQLU4J_pE0&list=PL6E354A95DBA8E3E3 ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 8:28pm
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I'm sure we could find lots of arguments on all sides. Just explaining what's written. Paul always gets blamed but as you can see, the Jewish elders wrote the Gentile dietary laws. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 8:19am
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Hi Hasan,
In Antioch in Syria when the Gentiles were being converted from paganism, or whatever, to Christianity, this happened in Acts 15: 1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, �Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.� 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question. The Apostles were in the Church in Jerusalem when they were not traveling to other areas, and James, the half-brother of Jesus was the Leader or Pastor, and he officiated at the meeting. --- If you read from verse 1-21, you will understand that the Gentiles were not subject to the Jewish law, --- so it gives what was called �The Jerusalem Decree.� --- (Notice that Paul and Barnabas didn�t write this but they are mentioned by James and the elders, (other Apostles) as �our beloved Barnabas and Paul.�) 22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. 23 They wrote this letter by them: �The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, �You must be circumcised and keep the law�� to whom we gave no such commandment� 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." (Interesting topic, a little more later) Placid |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 5:52am
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Just for my general knowledge, what is kosher wine?
thank you. ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 8:58am
I would guess it to be wine that has been blessed by a Rabbi, like kosher food, but do the Jews even drink wine? Is it permissible for them? I don't know. I hope maybe we will get an answer from someone of the Jewish faith... or I could maybe do some Googling and find out.
 |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 8:49pm
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Try KosherWine.com I knew a Jewish lady made her own wine. Called it her "every day" wine. Not saying an entire nation does every day wine. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 8:56am
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(To continue from the instructions given to Gentiles at the meeting) in Acts 15:
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well --- There is a comparable verse in Surah 5: 3 Forbidden to you is the flesh of an animal which dies of itself, and blood and the flesh of swine; and that on which is invoked the name of any other than ALLAH; and that which has been strangled; and that which has been beaten to death; and that which has been killed by a fall and that which has been gored to death; and that of which a wild animal has eaten, (except that which you have properly slaughtered); --- and (forbidden) that which has been slaughtered, at an altar as an offering to idols The difference is the instruction not to eat �the flesh of swine� which is generally called pork. --- So, in obedience, Muslims are not to eat pork, but that restriction did not apply to the Gentile Christians in Antioch, Syria, Cilicia, and the Christians in Asia Minor The Jews, including Jesus and the Apostles, would not eat pork, and it is doubtful if Jewish converts would start eating pork. --- However, there had never been a restriction for Gentiles. --- Consider this: --- Pigs are not kept as house pets like cats, they cannot be trained like dogs, they are no good for riding as horses, and no good to harness and used to pull a farm implement. --- So, what is their purpose except for food? In hot climates they have warned against the danger of trichinosis, from a parasite that lives in the animal, --- so the advice is always to cook the meat very well. This has not been a problem in most climates, but when God gave the instructions of animals �good for food,� --- He made this distinction in Leviticus 11: 1 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 �Speak to the children of Israel, saying, �These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: 3 Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud�that you may eat. 4 Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 5 the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 6 the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 7 and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you. It gives a list of clean animals, and then repeats this same instruction in Deuteronomy 14: 4 These are the animals which you may eat: the ox (beef), the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the mountain goat, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. 6 And you may eat every animal with cloven hooves, having the hoof split into two parts, and that chews the cud, among the animals. So this was the instruction for the Jews from the time of Moses. --- For Christian Gentiles, they were allowed to eat pork as well. For Muslims there was instruction in this verse in the Quran, not to eat pork. Placid |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 1:25pm
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Thanks for the info Placid, that's good to know! Who are Christian Gentiles and why doesn't Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 apply to them regarding swine? |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 1:56pm
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Greetings Placid, I'm glad you had the time and energy for this teaching. Should you not include the part in the scriptures where Jesus teaches about 'clean' and 'unclean' and that it is not about what you put into your stomach but what comes from the heart? Peace, Caringheart |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 10:28pm
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Hi Caringheart, is this what you are referring to? I had this in Post #6 I don't recall Jesus ever talking about dietary laws. That wasn't "the law" He was concerned with. He also cared less about the laws made by the scribes and pharisees which challenged Him in Matthew 15 about the disciples not washing before eating bread. They called it "tradition of the elders" Jesus called them on their wishy wash everything habits, then turned to the crowd and said Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. In those days bread was used two ways. It was a staple food, and it was also used as a napkin that was thrown to the dogs. It was Peter that came to Jesus and said, "can you explain that?" Jesus does in verses 15 thru 20. Now I don't see anything in there about eating a pig, but in His explanation it would/could be understood as a possibility if the reasoning behind pork was a health issue. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 3:41pm
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Hi Caringheart,
if there are no laws, there is no need for a savior, no need to suffer, no need to live though the pains of this life, no right, no wrong. Anyone could do anything and it will be fine. Fortunately, we are humans, we see all beliefs teach laws, have certain restrictions, have laws regarding important things in our lives. To say that Christianity freed people from laws that govern a very important part of their lives is simply against that very understanding. And does it not make sense that if a command is being repealed, it will be done through another command? Can you show me a command where the dietary laws of the OT were changed by God? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 4:58pm
Gretings Hasan, I am not sure why you addressed me but I am happy to answer. These are the words spoken by Jesus. * NIV version has this note at verse 19 (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) Wishing you well, CH |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:41pm
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I may have shared this earlier in the thread, but not so long ago I was listening to a teaching that talked about how the law was given by God, to Moses, to forbid the eating of pork, to ensure that the Israelites would be prevented from returning to Egypt as some were tempted to do. The teaching was that pork was a large part of the Egyptian diet and so by forbidding this the Israelites would have no choice but to not return. I did not do further research into the matter since it made a great deal of sense to me. As we have become better able to travel around the world I think it is clear that people must eat what they are provided with to eat according to where they live.... that or starve. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 14 January 2013 at 8:51am
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Hi Rational,
Quote: Who are Christian Gentiles and why doesn't Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 apply to them regarding swine? Christian Gentiles are those who followed Jesus as the Gospel was spread outside of Israel�. --- The Jews first called the followers of Jesus. �the Way,� or �that Way,� which was kind of spoken as an insult. However, as the Christian Church and community grew in Antioch, Syria, it says in Acts 11: 25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul. 26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. The dietary laws in Lev 11 and Deut 14 are generally followed by many Christians, but they are no longer a law because the NT was not founded on rules and laws, but on grace and truth, which comes by Faith in God, as it says in John 1: 17 �For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.� --- And Faith in God, through Jesus Christ, requires willing obedience. What was given to the Gentile Christians at Antiock is listed in Acts 15: 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. This is comparable to the first part of Surah 5: 3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat (that which dies of itself), blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling, --- (Like I said above, the only restriction added for Muslims was swine, or pork.) Placid |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 3:36pm
Caringheart, I have asked for a command. All this blah blah does not show any commands. God commanded before that "thou shall not eat meat of swine". That's called a command. When God tells us to do something or not to do something, he sends a commands. Where is the command, "thou shall now eat of all that was declared unclean to you before"! where did God say that? I can find many similar obscure messages like you quoted and their possible interpretation that will be as ridiculous as yours. But I would not do that, I want you to show me a command where God commands you to free yourself from dietary laws He has in place before. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 4:15pm
Why in tarnation would God need to give a command like you are asking for. You give a command when you are prohibiting something, not when you are giving permission. I guess, "blah, blah, blah", means you didn't even read, so why did I bother to take my time to share? Did you read my other post about why God forbid pork to the Jews in the first place? |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 6:40pm
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'Why in tarnation would God need to give a command like you are asking for. You give a command when you are prohibiting something, not when you are giving permission.'
Hello Caringheart, Off hand I can give you one such example in our religion. There is a hadith which says, earlier I forbade you from visiting graves, but now you can - so when you visit, remember your death (I don't remember the exact words though). I think Hasan was asking you for something similar. The do's need to be clearly underlined, like the dont's. Don't you think so? ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 6:52pm
Thanks Nausheen for the illustration, however, this is hadith, not quran, and we are meant to be using scripture. I believe the Biblical scripture is very clear about the permission being given. Hasan does not agree. As far as I am concerned, you don't say, 'I command you to eat whatever you want'... you say, 'I give permission to eat as you will'. Anyway, your hadith does the same... it does not command... 'I command you to visit graves'... it gives permission. So essentially you and I have said the same thing. (Sorry if I came off sounding testy.) Salaam and blessings, Caringheart |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 4:59am
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Christians just can't bring themselves to admit that Paul the deceiver changed the dietery law which was implemented in the OT. Christians give the lame excuse of a quote from Jesus, which is misundersood, that to paraphrase it 'it's not what goes in your mouth that is important but what comes out'. There's no getting away from the fact that as they wanted the gentiles to follow the teachings of Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) that they had to to compromise on the dietery law otherwise no gentile would have become a Christian. Simple. I don't think the question has been answered yet. Do Christians follow any dietary Laws?
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Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 6:07am
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
I think you like being silly  Unfortunately because you live on another planet all you got is pig and that's why you'd starve. See here on Earth we have a larger selection: 1) Camel 2) Goat 3) Sheep 4) Buffalo 5) Stag 6) Rabbit 7) Cow 8) Wild-ass 9) Fish 10) Deer/Antelope/Gazelle 11) Duck 12) Heron 13) Nightingale 14) Quail 15) Parrot 16) Francolin 17) Locust 18) Partridge 19) Lark 20) Sparrow 21) Goose 22) Ostrich 23) Dove 24) Pigeon 25) Stork 26) Rooster 27) Chicken 28) Peacock 29) Starling 30) Hoopoe |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 12:45pm
You did make me laugh with that comment. No I was not meaning to be silly. I was just making the point that people eat what there is to eat. I mean I am sure that people on other continents were never aware of God's command not to eat pork, and if boar presents itself for food against starving... well all I meant was we eat was is there to eat. There are places on this earth I can not imagine how I would survive because of the things they eat."here on Earth we have a larger selection" but not in all places... |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 7:46am
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Okay, now I'm confused. How does camel and hare make the okay list? The same reasons were given in the Torah for swine and camels. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 8:26pm
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Nobody wants to explain this? Are there any special names for camel eaters? ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 12:00pm
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A friend of mine wrote this; "Pigs being one of the smartest mammals... Normal gates and fences don't stop them. One of ours kept opening gates and letting the other animals out. " Maybe that's why we're not supposed to eat them... intelligent life? Hey, in India the cow was(maybe still is?) held as sacred. Maybe cows were held as sacred because they gave life giving milk? Don't kill what can feed you for more than just a day? |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 7:05pm
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Actually I hear a pigs digestive system is very similar to ours, also cannibals have said people taste like pork. Add to that they are genetically modifying pigs now so their parts are not rejected by humans. Yeah, a 200 lb pigs heart is the same size as a 200 lb mans heart, and the circulatory system is also similar enough for transplant. I wonder what Ron would say... ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 8:45am
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A little more on dietary laws,
--- Starting in Surah 2: 173 He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of God. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, - then is he guiltless. For God is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful. This compares to Surah 5: 3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; --- (I omitted part of the verse, --- to where it continues at the end, and it says about the same as in 2:173.) --- But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, God is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. --- (So if a starving Muslim came to a house where they were serving ham, or pork chops, it would be okay for him to eat them, would it not?) 4 They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food). Say: lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure: and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by God: eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of God over it: and fear God; for God is swift in taking account. 5 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time, - when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues. If honorable Muslim men marry chaste Christian women, then they could eat the food of Christians, could they not? In all fairness to custom, a Muslim man may not want to eat pork because of the instruction in 5:3, not to eat pork, --- but he should allow his Christian wife to eat it, should he not? --- Or if he accepts that, with marrying a Christian, all foods are good, as it says in 5:5, --- then he could eat pork as part of the Christian diet, could he not? I don�t suppose the Apostles and Jewish disciples of Jesus ever ate pork, but they didn�t disallow it for the Gentiles, as was instructed by James and the Apostles in Acts 15: 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Placid |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:11pm
Caringheart, I have asked a simple thing. When God gives a command to forbid something, it is forbidden, unless God commands that it is OK now to do. I know where God commanded to not to eat pig, what I am asking is where did God said that it is Ok to eat now, no more forbidden. Can you provide that as a proof to your argument? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 2:31pm
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Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brassen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him[Jesus], Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He replied, �Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: ��These people honor me with their lips,but their hearts are far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. ...13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. 14 And when He had called all the people unto him, He said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. 16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 17 And when He was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. 18 And He saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (*see below) 20 And He said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. These are the words spoken by Jesus.* NIV version has this note at verse 19 (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 9:44pm
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Just wondering when God declared camels and rabbits as clean. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 5:23pm
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Hi Hasan,
It is interesting how you dwell so much on an OT law that was for the Jews and never did apply to Gentiles even in that day, and apparently a law that Muslims don�t observe either according to the list that Rational gave. Let�s look at what it says in Deuteronomy 14: Clean and Unclean Meat 7 Nevertheless, of those that chew the cud or have cloven hooves, you shall not eat, such as these: the (camel), the (rabbit), and the rock hyrax; for they chew the cud but do not have cloven hooves; they are unclean for you. 12 But these you shall not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, 15 the (ostrich), the short-eared owl, the (sea gull), and the hawk after their kinds; 18 the (stork), the (heron) after its kind, and the (hoopoe) and the bat. --- The ones forbidden that are included on Rational�s list are in (brackets). --- Notice the following instructions for the Jews which violates their rules of not eating or touching anything that dies of itself. They can give it to Gentiles, --- or SELL it to a foreigner. 21 �You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to the alien who is within your gates, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the Lord your God. --- (How do you like that?) --- It gives instructions about changes that Jesus brought, in Surah 3: 48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, 49 And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; 50 (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" Notice: --- I declare to you what you eat. And what you store in your houses. To make lawful for you part of what was before forbidden I have come with a Sign from your Lord. So fear (worship) God and OBEY ME. God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a Way that is straight. This is what Christians do. We follow and obey Jesus, and worship God. --- Didn�t Caringheart give you this Scripture? �There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him:� Jesus lifted any restrictions on particular foods, because Jesus said, --- �Life is more than food and clothing.� One last thing on food and a commandment concerning it. --- If Jesus said, �I have changed the rules concerning �what you eat and what you store in your houses.�� --- Don�t you think He would tell His brother James, who was the Leader and Pastor of the Church in Jerusalem, when they decided the rules for the Gentile Church in Antioch, Syria? They sent this letter from James and the elders in Acts 15: 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. However, this is the kind of commandments that Jesus gave in John 13: 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.� Placid |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 27 January 2013 at 4:25am
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Hi Hasan,
I should have added that I respect the instructions given in the Quran that Muslims should not eat pork. --- But this is a rule that you follow, --- so for you to eat pork or ham would be wrong, except in the case of necessity as it says. But you understand, since it was never forbidden for Gentiles and Christians to eat pork, it is a non issue. I don't know why they call that 'fast food' item a HAM-burger, because they are not made with ham. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 12:27am
I just wanted to add that I also respect the dietary laws that are followed by the Jewish and muslim faiths. I thought it was right when we used to fast from meat on Fridays and Sundays during lent in my faith. I try to still observe this practice during lent, and truthfully would like to observe this on every Friday all through the year as an observance of the sabbath, but admit I am terrible in my discipline in this matter. I tend to forget, and eat whatever is easy, without considering the day. I also wish I could master the discipline for fasting. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 2:25pm
Placid, I understand that. What seems to be the issue is: Jesus was a Jew, according to Christians, and Jews follow what God commanded them in the OT. So to say that one is a Jew, but not follow the Jewish law is....? As far as hamburger, their are several stories, one is that it originated in a town called Hamburg! Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 4:38pm
I'm butting in I know, but...  Yes, Jesus was a Jew and it was Jesus Himself who was teaching that people should not be so focused on what goes into the stomach 'for it is not what goes into a man that counts, but what comes out of the heart' It's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth ... (these are the words of Jesus) The Ethiopic version renders it, "it is not what enters from without into the mouth of man, which can defile him; but only what goes out of the heart of man, this defiles ... http://bible.cc/mark/7-15.htm Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 7:06pm
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Salaam, Christians conveniently quote Matthew 15:11 Matthew 15:11King James Version (KJV) 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. However, nowhere in the NT would you find Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) making halal what was made haram.I suspect what happened was that the early Christians knew that the gentiles that they reached out to would not keep the dietery laws of the OT because they would find that almost impossible to follow, so they got rid of it. Simple. |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 9:54pm
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It was the Jewish elders of Jersalam that instructed Paul on the dietary laws for Gentiles. I mentioned it a couple dozen posts back. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 12:00am
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------------- God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts. |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 11:54am
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Of course Jesus followed the Jewish laws, He was a Jew. You don't get out of being a Jew. There again, you can't "say" you are a Jew, you either are or are not. Jesus did not follow Halal, He followed Kosher and there is a difference. I wouldn't mind seeing the chapter and verse where God went from Kosher to Halal, which now contains camel and hare. Thankfully not camel hair. Then there's the "softening" of Halal, (and kosher, btw) rules to allow American Muslims to eat "Halal" foods in the States, erm. Following Jewish law is another thing. Paul told the Gentiles, if you want to follow Jewish rule you will be bound to all of it. Not even Muslims want to do that. Think about it.What I'm picking up on here is "emulation". It's much bigger in Islam than Christianity. For one thing, we don't have any photos of Jesus so I'm not going to do the beard and robe thing as I don't want to be someone's impression of what jesus might have looked like. On the other hand there was a time Muhammad ate locust and wiped his butt with three rocks or leaves, (possibly Jesus too), should we add that to our list of should do? There seems to be a tremendous amount of pressure on Muslims to "hate" anything pork. It's like the line between people with any possible potential of ever really being human and absolute kafir. Worship an idol, then eat a pig kind of dirty. It's ingrown like a toenail. If somebody doesn't come up with a camel and hare solution I'm going to call this a double standard that all my Muslim friends are going to have to put up with. Maybe some of you too. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 4:01pm
Assalamo alaik Webber, "And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:50 - 3:50 ) It's not unusual for a prophet to make lawful what was previously forbidden. ------------- الله |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 8:00pm
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Peace and Grace be with you Rational. Thanks for a response. This is most interesting as it was Jesus saying this, which at the time He would have been speaking to not only His disciples, but to a Jewish group as well. This is like an extension of what Caringheart posted. Considering the response of the Jews it could have been part of the same convo. In neither case does it go on to a new list though. Where did you get your list? ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 30 January 2013 at 7:29am
Here: http://www.daruliftaa.com/question?txt_QuestionID=q-18090311 - http://www.daruliftaa.com/question?txt_QuestionID=q-18090311 ** EDIT: I just found another page that seems to have the same content but presented a bit better: http://www.central-mosque.com/index.php/General-Fiqh/the-fiqh-of-halal-and-haram-animals.html - http://www.central-mosque.com/index.php/General-Fiqh/the-fiqh-of-halal-and-haram-animals.html ------------- الله |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 31 January 2013 at 7:37pm
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Burger King just admitted to mixing horsemeat into their burgers. Their suppliers did and BK knew about it, so it's a big scandal now although the first 9 minutes of comments say there's nothing wrong with horsemeat. Certainly not something popular here. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 11:48am
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It would seem that all scripture has taken on aspects to fit the culture to which it was given. I do believe however, that Jesus did teach that belonging is not in the things which we eat, or in the way we wash, but in having a pure spirit. Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! 3 For I know my transgressions, 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; So what is the law of belonging to God? I think the answer is love... loving one another... having a right spirit and a pure heart.  ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 4:13am
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته NT instructs to follow the OT OT forbids swine NT doesn't allow swine = swine is forbidden in the Bible Jesus(as) was a staunch follower of the OT. Matthew 5:17-19 Luke 16:17 Christians conveniently relying on Matthew 15:11 or Mark 7:15 to eat pig is shameful. You're implying that Jesus(as) eats anything and everything. والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته ------------- الله |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 12:06pm
Greetings Rational, Actually He wasn't. He sat down to eat with tax collectors and prostitutes. He ate without washing, and was accused of doing work on the Lords day when He and the Apostles were picking wheat to eat as they walked in the fields... and also because He healed on the Sabbath. These are the things He was constantly accused of because actually he flouted the law of the Pharisees. He was trying to show the foolishness of following empty laws which the heart was not behind. To show that it was the heart that determined the acceptability of a behavior. Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 2:53pm
Caringheart, that is not a command. And the fact is that there were laws that God taught to His people. Moses, David and Jesus (pbut) all followed some laws and rules and told their people to do the same. What you failed to show is a command that cancelled the dietary requirement put in place for those who followed the OT and Jesus was one of them. Of course the heart has to be clean as well, and that was nothing new either. That teaching always was and is a part of being an honest believer. So that quote does not nullify the command to not to eat or touch pork. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 6:01pm
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Ahh, shameful is a judgement based on the negative conotations inposed on pork. There is no implication against Jesus as He was Jew who would have no idea what pork even tasted like. Let's not forget what Jesus said in 3:50 To add insult to injury Jews were forced to slaughter pigs in the temple by the Greeks. Then RamBam started the rumors that pigs are filthy, wallowing their own feces, will eat anything, and cause diseases. His prediction was that if people started eating pork their homes would become as filthy as pig stys. The big pig freakout. Didn't happen like RamBam said, then again he wasn't a prophet. I've mentioned monkey brains and horses and nobody flinched, but pork... Cute little domesticated pets that they are...(can you imagine). A couple more things to add to the pile; Note both Leviticus 11:7 and 8, then again in Deuteronomy 14:8 says the same thing, "is unclean to you." Does not say "Is despicabley unclean, wallowing in it's own do do, diseased, etc... Says "Is unclean, to you". Unclean to the Jews. Remember that there were some things forbidden to the Jews because of their disobiedience? K, nobody has a list of that stuff. What Jesus said; "And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:50 - 3:50 ) We don't have any official "God given" lists either way but if camels and hares came off the list what else did? Hares do eat their own poop so I'd guess that's not an issue of uncleanliness. Perspective... We went over the ruling the Jewish Elders of the temple of Jerusalam made for the Gentile dietary law didn't we? At least twice? ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 8:19am
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But Caringheart is using Matthew 15:11 and Mark 7:15. Was Jesus (as) talking about food in those verses? What if he meant 'words' heard and 'words' spoken? And if Jesus (as) was talking about food, does this mean that he is making everything lawful? Everything is clean? I think it's simple, the OT says don't eat swine. Where does Jesus make swine lawful? Did he ever reverse the law given from the OT? I believe that he did make things lawful that were forbidden, but where did he make swine lawful? ------------- الله |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 2:38pm
Greetings Rational,10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:For me it is very clear what Jesus was saying. To quit making such a fuss over the transitory things of this world and start paying attention to the deeper issues of the heart.
Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 11:37pm
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Words heard come in thru the ears. Words spoken can defile a man so fast... Legit question, is everything now clean?What ever goes into your stomach goes thru the acid test. Not much survives, think about it. Modern science tells us what's poison, including vegitation which looks like the Israelites were either privy listed, or left to find out on their own. I very well know what an aversion Muslims have to swine. It's not something likely to change either, Muslims will always hate anything associated. I was asked at the beginning of this thread if I eat pork and my answer was yes. Reason being I can't say no if I remember eating it in my past, nor reserved to say it will never happen again, but also mentioned it is not part of my regular diet. If once kafir, always kafir, call me Kafebber, whatever. I know, I churn that aversion, and poke for responses like I'm some big pig eatin advocate, but not so, and please know that I would never encourage a Muslim to go against his laws. I was in a Timmy's with a friend one day, he ordered something with bacon in it. My friend asked the kid making it if he'd ever eaten bacon. The kid, (obviously Muslim) said no but he had heard it was very good. I asked him what he would do after he ate it. We made eye contact, no words, he thought about it, I scared him with what he was thinking. Chances are he'll never try bacon, even if prompted again. I don't know about you but I thank God for using me on such occasions. Did anyone read as far as Deuteronomy 14: 21?
Anything that dieth of itself is unclean. Just like pigs and camels. An Israelite was not allowed to eat it but could give it to a Gentile who lived in the city, or sell it to a Gentile outside of the city. Obviously God did not make these laws for Gentiles or the ruling would have been to bury it, or something more along those lines. This is a bold enough statement to say God never made dietary laws for Gentiles. If He never made them in the first place, you won't find anywhere where He changed them, and no reason to go looking for them. It's about time to drop the gavel on this one. BTW, the reason you are allowed to eat hare is because they eat their feces. Comforting thought. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 6:35am
But if you follow Jesus (as), he never ate pig? Or did he?   ------------- الله |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 8:44am
Greetings Rational, We'll never really know what Jesus ate other than what is spoken of in the scriptures, which was fish and bread and wine, will we? Did He eat pork... Probably not and if I wanted to follow Jesus completely... if I wanted to become a Jew... I guess I would not... but I was born a gentile and I grew up eating bacon which I love, so while there is a part of me that hears the old testament and the laws given to the Jews and a part of me feels that I want to follow God in every way... a part of me says to give up pork, but I doubt I will ever give it up completely... it's 'the other white meat'(aside from chicken that is) and healthier than beef which I don't eat at all anymore. In fact I hardly eat meat. This does not mean I would ever want, or expect those raised to not eat it to change their ways either, and I would restrain myself from eating anything offensive in their presence as it says to do in the new testament... 'to not do what is offensive to thy brother' or 'that which might cause them to stumble'. But as a gentile I have never been told that there was anything I could not eat. These things were not the concern of Jesus. Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 2:48pm
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Hi,
Yes I think this has pretty well run its course. Quote: But if you follow Jesus (as), he never ate pig? Or did he? Was it not you Rational, that quoted this about a page back? --- What Jesus said about the law in Surah 3: 50 (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me. I don't believe Jesus or the other Jews ever ate pork, the same as true Muslims don't likely eat pork, but it was not a restriction for the Gentiles. I wonder if you Muslims realize how vulnerable you can make yourselves by this great stigma you have about pork? What if a transport plane landed in a country where so called Muslims were attacking innocent people, --- and the plane was loaded with pigs. So, if they landed the plane, released the pigs and chased them in all directions, then the so called Muslims would take off, would they not? That could be a 'peaceful protest' could it not? |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 8:25pm
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Jesus never ate a pizza either. The only two records I know of that included Jesus eating, once was bread, the other was broiled fish. Not to say He only ate twice in His life, that's all the info we have. I believe I've mentioned a couple times I doubt Jesus would ever have opportunity to eat pork. As a Jew it wouldn't even be on a menu. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 07 February 2013 at 3:51am
How can you say you don't know but yet say that you believe in the OT? Jesus was a follower of the OT and it says not to eat swine. So did he follow the OT or not?
I respect your honesty. You admitted that you don't want to follow Jesus completely. Any reason? And you don't think he ate pork, obviously because he was following the law from the OT, which I assume you believe because it's in the same book you pray from. Do you believe the OT to be the word of God or not?
So ultimately you are excusing yourself on the merits that "I grew up eating bacon which I love". People grow up diong various things, doesn't mean they must continue doing them. A part of you hears the OT but choses not to follow. Sounds like you pick and choose what you want to follow from the bible.
You were not told because that's the way you were raised. Doesn't mean it's right. To say that Jesus was not concerned with these things is like saying Jesus was not concerned with the OT. Simple. No? ------------- الله |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 07 February 2013 at 4:22am
Hi Placid,
Conveniently for you, maybe.
Yes I did say that, along with a question that was ignored. He did make things lawful that were forbidden. Where does it state that he made pork lawful? Placid, Do you have this statement from Jesus (as) ?
Because Jesus (as) follows the OT.
What are you talking about??? Diverting from the subject completely Placid 
Exactly, so called muslims. They are not muslims to me or you. And where are those attacks taking place that you mention? ------------- الله |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 07 February 2013 at 4:23am
He never ate rats either, i'm sure. And pizza wasn't mentioned in the OT.
Just because he didn't have pork "on the menu" doesn't mean he would have eaten pork if it had been "on the menu". You do realize that he had many other things not "on the menu"? So everything that was not on Jesus menu can now become clean. Yummy! All i'm hearing are excuses from all of you. Although Webber doesn't eat pig as much as Caringheart which is good ------------- الله |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 February 2013 at 11:06am
 Greetings Rational, I guess you would like to surmise that I am acknowledging that Jesus did not eat pork, but as I said, we don't know what Jesus ate other than fish, bread and wine. I do want to follow Jesus completely. The phrasing, if you read and understand what I wrote is, "if I wanted to become a Jew". So it's not about following Jesus... it would be about choosing to follow the Jewish mitzvot and following Jewish practices. We must remember, however, that Jesus challenged the Jewish practices. I am following Jesus completely, just as a gentile, not a Jew. Jesus is the new covenant, the good news, the new thing that God was doing, which supercedes the old testament. I believe in what Jesus taught and He taught that it is not the letter of the law but the spirit. 6 ... not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.You are right it's what I was taught, and I believe in what Jesus taught. I don't believe God is going to send me to hell for eating pork. I believe God is way more interested in what is in my heart, than what I put in my stomach. The laws God gave to the Jews were for a purpose, for the good of His people. Everything in the scriptures has been given as a guide for our good, they are not things that affect God, but ourselves and our well being. This is why God has given them. There is no harm today in eating pork. I believe I also shared how this was likely a law given to the Israelites as they left Egypt in order to prevent their returning since pork was the main part of the diet in Egypt. Salaam, Caringheart * added by me for clarity and understanding ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 08 February 2013 at 4:19pm
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Well said Caringheart. The difference between a reason and an excuse is whether one is willing to accept the explanation. From the time the Jews were given their dietarty laws, it was proven the laws did not include Gentiles. Jesus never gave Gentiles dietary laws. There was no dietary laws for Gentiles until after Jesus, when the Jewish Elders said to Paul, "Tell them this...". They knew the Gentiles ate pork, never mentioned it. The Quran gives you the same list the Gentiles got with a specific addition of pork. From the OT list the Jews developed "Kosher" which is more than food, but an entire process. As I see it a Halal diet is very much the same, an organized expansion of what the Quran actually says. Christians were taught to ask a blessing on their food before eating. Works for me. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 09 February 2013 at 5:24pm
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Thanks Caringheart and Webber for your replies. But the question was: Do you have the statement from Jesus (as) where he made swine lawful? (yes/no) I really didn't ask for anything else. If you don't have this statement from Jesus (as), just say so. Please just answer yes or no. ------------- الله |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 09 February 2013 at 5:45pm
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No. We have no law from God to say swine was unlawful for Gentiles, therefore nothing to reverse, no statement required.
------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 February 2013 at 8:03pm
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Greetings Rational, Your question has been asked and answered many times over. I'm afraid you just don't have 'ears to hear'. That's ok, there certainly is no reason for you to take up eating pork, or for you to worry about my soul because I do. Peace to us all, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 9:50am
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Hi Rational,
Jesus said In Matthew 6: 31 �Therefore do not worry, saying, �What shall we eat?� or �What shall we drink?� or �What shall we wear?� 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. In Surah 3, Jesus said: 49 --- AND I DECLARE TO YOU WHAT YOU EAT, --- and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; 50 "I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. --- AND TO MAKE LAWFUL TO YOU PART OF WHAT WAS BEFORE FORBIDDEN TO YOU; --- I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. --- (Notice that this allows for changes for Christians, from the Law of Moses.) And at the meeting in Acts 15, where they gave instructions for the Gentile Christians in Antioch in Syria, --- James the half-brother of Jesus officiated at the meeting, and all the Apostles were in attendance, so all of these Jewish leaders, wrote this letter in Acts 15: 28 For it seemed good to --- the Holy Spirit, --- and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Let�s compare this list to Surah 5: 3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling. So the simple understanding should be that Gentile Christians were always allowed to eat Pork, --- whereas Muslims, in the Quran, are instructed not to. Placid |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 1:37pm
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So Webber and Caringheart, you don't follow the OT. ------------- الله |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 8:11pm
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The OT was a record of how the Israelites became Jews. Not that I want to take away from the worth of it all, but I'm not a Jew, never was, never can be even if I tried, why am I stuck with their laws? Let's not forget how far these "laws" have come. I grew up with a diet that was obviously healthy enough to keep me alive and it wasn't Kosher. Could I consider the 10% increase in grocery costs to go kosher as my tithe? I mentioned, (probably in another thread) I'm a Pauline Christian. That's where us Gentiles fit in best. Halal isn't kosher so you don't have to worry about the OT list either however I'm not sure how you got out of it. Considering Jesus said he came to allow some of what was forbidden both Christians and Muslims look to Him for these changes. The command from Jesus you've been asking us for (the new clean list including swine) would no doubt included camel as well, right? ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 9:38pm
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Greetings Rational, I am so sure that I have thoroughly answered this question, many times, but to put it for you one more time. As with all things religious, no question has a simple, one dimensional answer. God is far from being one dimensional. I follow Jesus, so anything that Jesus required is what I am bound by. I follow for sure the ten commandments given to Moses, and all of the moral laws that are in both the old and the new testament. Do I follow the 613 mitzvot that the Jews follow, no. Have I considered it, yes, but only out of pure preference... things like celebrating the Jewish feast days, but then I realized they do not apply to me... I am not of the people God saved out from slavery in Egypt, so does it make sense for me to celebrate the passover, or any of the other feasts of the Jews? Do the laws applied to the Jews apply to me? Not really. I follow the old testament in the sense that the old testament informs all that is in the new testament. The new testament(mystery) is concealed in the old (the prophesy of Jesus to come) and the old testament(mystery) is revealed in the new (the coming of Jesus reveals what was hidden in the old testament) ...that I might fully declare God's Word--that sacred mystery which up till now has been hidden in every age and every generation, but which is now as clear as daylight to those who love God. Salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 4:02pm
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I understand. Thanks. ------------- الله |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 4:22pm
------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:44pm
CArinheart, What about the opposite ( like violence, sex, God, and salvation to mention a few) thing we find between OT and NT? What is your opinion on those. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 2:14pm
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Thank you Placid for your thoughtful reply. So In your scriptures, Jesus (as) did not make swine lawful, since you don't have this statement needed to nullify the several verses from the OT that forbid swine. But you've convinced yourself so lets just agree to disagree. I want to ask though, where do you believe Mohammad (pbuh) got the Holy Quran from? What are your honest thoughts on this? I'm really interested to know.
------------- الله |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 15 February 2013 at 2:19am
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Sahih International |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 February 2013 at 9:02am
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It is possible that this, or parts of this, have already been shared. 2 One person�s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else�s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. 5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God�s judgment seat. 11 It is written: 12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall. 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 18 February 2013 at 7:53am
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Hi Rational,
Quote: (From above) I want to ask though, where do you believe Mohammad (pbuh) got the Holy Quran from? What are your honest thoughts on this? I'm really interested to know. Response: --- I believe that Muhammad received the revelations in the Quran from the angel Gabriel, who had originally appeared to him in a vision. I have the highest regard for Muhammad and the Quran because I recognize the way God spoke to His Prophets. --- Some by visions, or through tragedies, some by inner inspiration, and some unexpectedly, like Moses, through a burning bush. I read the long intro to Mr Pickthall�s Translation and learned from there that Muhammad was not an idolater, but was searching for the Faith and beliefs of Abraham, --- and on this retreat in the month of Ramadan, --- Gabriel appeared to him. Gabriel had previously appeared to Zechariah and the Virgin Mary in Luke 1, which is repeated in the beginning of Surah 19, called Mary. --- So, is it not natural to expect that what the same Gabriel revealed to Muhammad, would be in harmony with what he, Gabriel, had revealed before? The Intro says that Muhammad was troubled at first at the reality of being called by God but his wife, Khadijah, encouraged him. It indicates there, --- and I have read other places on Shiachat, that Khadijah, and her cousin were Christians. --- It said that she used a method to �test the spirit,� and found that it was good. On their return to Mecca, she took him to see her aged cousin �who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians� who confirmed that he believed that God was calling Muhammad to be a Prophet and messenger to his people. --- His Mission was: To destroy idolatry in Arabia, and restore �Faith in One God.� At that time there were some 360 idols in the Kabah, the House of Prayer. Muhammad spent 3 years teaching his family and friends, then God led him to preach publicly, which brought much persecution. --- He continued for 10 years in Mecca, and was invited to Yathrib (which became Al-Madina, �The City�), and the mission expanded from there. --- God used him in the next 10 years to destroy idolatry and reform the people to be honest, God fearing and productive. At his �Farewell Pilgrimage� shortly before his death, he declared an amnesty, and �Victory� --- which brought a short-lived Peace to his people. This is what I understand about Muhammad and I think you would feel okay if I stop here, without commenting on the fact that Imam Ali had the complete Quran in hand, at the time of Muhammad�s death, but it was rejected. --- Then it took some 20 years before the present written Quran was produced by Caliph Uthman. Placid |