abuayisha wrote:

http://abdurrahman.org/character/essexmusicandsinging.html - Jazakallahu khair.

I would like to draw your kind attention to the following excerpts from the article in that link:

Shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah confrims this in his celebrated Fataawa where he says, "The Prophet (upon whom be peace and blessings) allowed certain forms of amusement at the wedding festivity and similar celebrations. During the Prophet's era, none of the men used to beat upon the daff or slap his hands [in rhythm]. Rather, it has been authentically related that the Prophet said, 'Clapping is for women and tasbeeh (*193) is for men,' (*194)

The article further says,

Celebrating may be done at the arrival of a respected guest, relative or personality, such as a pious scholar, or at the return of Muslim warriors (mujaahideen) or a long-estranged loved one. In these cases, innocent poems and songs may be sung to the accompaniment of the simple daff. (*198)

But according to what was said in the previous quote men cannot beat drums or clap. Would it mean that at the welcome ceremonies women should be called upon to sing & beat the duff and clap their hands contrary to the rule that women's voice should not be audible to strange men?

Please read the following excerpts also:

Buraydah said, "Allah's Messenger left for one of his expeditions and upon his return, a black slave-girl came to him saying, 'Oh Messenger of Allah, verily, I vowed that if Allah returned you safely I would beat the daff and sing (*201) in your presence.' (*202) Allah's Messenger said to her,' If you made a vow, (*203) then fulfill it by beating the daff, otherwise don't.' (*204) Upon this she began to beat the hand drum, during which Abu Bakr entered, then Ali, followed by Uthmaan. Upon Umar's entering, she threw the daff under her backside and sat on it, whereupon Allah's Messenger said, 'Verily, Satan fears you, Oh Umar!'" (*205)

The woman was permitted by the Prophet on her request to sing but at the same time the Prophet's remarks to Omar indicate that what the woman did was a Satanic act. The Prophet would never permit a satanic act. Kindly clarify.

Posted By: abosait
Date Posted: 19 June 2012 at 10:25pm

Matt Browne wrote:

I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_music#Nasheed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_music#Nasheed

"Nasheeds are moral, religious songs sung in various melodies by some Muslims of today without any musical instruments. This type of singing of moral songs without instrumentation is considered as permissible by many Muslims."

Jazakallahu khair. Please read the following article from Islamqa on nasheeds.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/91142/nasheed

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 3:22pm

,I would love to invite Muslims to listen to Christian music sometime. Get to know the Christian better. Check out what they see in Christians, and not just what they see in the culture of the countries in which Christians live. Christians do not force the country to conform to their ways. They exist within, and in spite of, the culture.
My days are filled with Christian music which keeps my mind focused on God and not on worldly things... not on self. This feeling closer to God lifts me up.

~ More like falling in love, than something to believe in
More like losing my heart, than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out, Come take a look at me now
Deeper and deeper, it was love that made me a believer, in more than a name, a faith, a creed ~

~give me an undivided heart, that I may bring You glory ~
~one faith, one love, one God ~

But I also do not wish to be a 'brother who causes another to stumble'... so if you in any way feel that this would lead you away from your God, then by all means I do not urge it. But for the purpose of opening the mind towards who God's people are(and I believe they are all of us), I think it would be beneficial.

David was a "man after God's own heart"... and it was David who sang the Psalms for God. If you read the Psalms you see that we are exhorted to sing glory to God.
Blessings.
Salaam,
Heart

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 3:55pm

Be thou my vision
~ Be thou my vision, O Lord of my heart,
    Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art;
    Be thou my best thought in the day and the night,
    Both waking and sleeping, thy presence my light.

    Be thou my wisdom, be thou my true word,
    Be thou ever with me, and I with thee Lord;
    Be thou my great Father, and I thy true son;
    Be thou in me dwelling, and I with thee one.

    Be thou my breastplate, my sword for the fight;
    Be thou my whole armour, be thou my true might;
    Be thou my soul's shelter, be thou my strong tower:
    O raise thou me heavenward, great Power of my power.

    Riches I heed not, nor man's empty praise:
    Be thou mine inheritance now and always;
    Be thou and thou only the first in my heart;
    O Sovereign of Heaven, my treasure thou art.

    High King of Heaven, thou Heaven's bright sun,
    O grant me its joys after victory is won!;
    Great heart of my own heart, whatever befall,
    Still be my vision, O Ruler of all. ~

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 4:50pm

Caringheart wrote:

,I would love to invite Muslims to listen to Christian music sometime.� Get to know the Christian better.� Check out what they see in Christians, and not just what they see in the culture of the countries in which Christians live.� Christians do not force the country to conform to their ways.� They exist within, and in spite of, the culture. My days are filled with Christian music which keeps my mind focused on God and not on worldly things... not on self.� This feeling closer to God lifts me up.~ More like falling in love, than something to believe in More like losing my heart, than giving my allegiance Caught up, called out, Come take a look at me now Deeper and deeper, it was love that made me a believer, in more than a name, a faith, a creed ~~give me an undivided heart, that I may bring You glory ~~one faith, one love, one God ~But I also do not wish to be a 'brother who causes another to stumble'... so if you in any way feel that this would lead you away from your God, then by all means I do not urge it.� But for the purpose of opening the mind towards who God's people are(and I believe they are all of us), I think it would be beneficial.David was a "man after God's own heart"... and it was David who sang the Psalms for God.� If you read the Psalms you see that we are exhorted to sing glory to God.Blessings.Salaam,[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />

Caringheart,
you said "Christians do not force the country to conform to their ways"
You need to read some history brother. Read what the crusades were all about. Also read history of the Catholic Church, how it was involve in power grab that spanned continents and centuries after the reconquest of Spain. Also read about what were the reasons people from Europe were fleeing to the Americas, should I mention religious persecution by the Church.

As far as how you remember God and how music plays a role in your life, that is your way to get to God just like people of different religions have different ways to bring God in their daily lives.

As far as a Muslim, like myself, praise of God is in every act and every thought. You be surprised to know that every act in the right direction is started in the name of God.
Five times a day when a Muslim present him/herself in Salath to God Almighty, he/she recite the beautiful suras
by memory in a balanced beautiful recitation that are not just music to the ear, but give life to the soul, thus a person following their five Salath is with a soul that is happy and alive all day.
Islam creates a balance in a person's life through which he/she achieves success in this world and same times secures his/her space in Paradise.

God tell us through the Quran that the comforts of this life are temporary, but the comforts of the hereafter are forever. And that's what should be our goal, if we want to be successful in the hereafter.

Have you ever listened to word of God recited in the language it was revealed? try this link, this recitation is very beautiful and here is its meanings.
Al-Fatiha (The Opening)

1:1 (Asad) In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Dispenser of Grace: [1]
1:2 (Asad) All praise is due to God alone, the Sustainer of all the worlds, [2]
1:3 (Asad) The Most Gracious, the Dispenser of Grace,

1:4 (Asad) Lord of the Day of Judgment.

1:5 (Asad) Thee alone do we worship; and unto Thee alone do we turn for aid.

1:6 (Asad) Guide us the straight way.

1:7 (Asad) The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, [3] not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray! [4]

Please paste this in you browser and listen:

http://www.mp3quran.net/newMedia.php?id=1&file=http://server8.mp3quran.net/afs/001.mp3

Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 6:16pm

honeto wrote:

Caringheart wrote:

,I would love to invite Muslims to listen to Christian music sometime. Get to know the Christian better. Check out what they see in Christians, and not just what they see in the culture of the countries in which Christians live. Christians do not force the country to conform to their ways. They exist within, and in spite of, the culture. My days are filled with Christian music which keeps my mind focused on God and not on worldly things... not on self. This feeling closer to God lifts me up.~ More like falling in love, than something to believe in More like losing my heart, than giving my allegiance Caught up, called out, Come take a look at me now Deeper and deeper, it was love that made me a believer, in more than a name, a faith, a creed ~~give me an undivided heart, that I may bring You glory ~~one faith, one love, one God ~But I also do not wish to be a 'brother who causes another to stumble'... so if you in any way feel that this would lead you away from your God, then by all means I do not urge it. But for the purpose of opening the mind towards who God's people are(and I believe they are all of us), I think it would be beneficial.David was a "man after God's own heart"... and it was David who sang the Psalms for God. If you read the Psalms you see that we are exhorted to sing glory to God.Blessings.Salaam,[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />

Caringheart,
you said "Christians do not force the country to conform to their ways"
You need to read some history brother. Read what the crusades were all about. Also read history of the Catholic Church, how it was involve in power grab that spanned continents and centuries after the reconquest of Spain. Also read about what were the reasons people from Europe were fleeing to the Americas, should I mention religious persecution by the Church.

As far as how you remember God and how music plays a role in your life, that is your way to get to God just like people of different religions have different ways to bring God in their daily lives.

As far as a Muslim, like myself, praise of God is in every act and every thought. You be surprised to know that every act in the right direction is started in the name of God.
Five times a day when a Muslim present him/herself in Salath to God Almighty, he/she recite the beautiful suras
by memory in a balanced beautiful recitation that are not just music to the ear, but give life to the soul, thus a person following their five Salath is with a soul that is happy and alive all day.
Islam creates a balance in a person's life through which he/she achieves success in this world and same times secures his/her space in Paradise.

God tell us through the Quran that the comforts of this life are temporary, but the comforts of the hereafter are forever. And that's what should be our goal, if we want to be successful in the hereafter.

Have you ever listened to word of God recited in the language it was revealed? try this link, this recitation if very beautiful and here is its meanings.
Al-Fatiha (The Opening)

1:1 (Asad) In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Dispenser of Grace: [1]
1:2 (Asad) All praise is due to God alone, the Sustainer of all the worlds, [2]
1:3 (Asad) The Most Gracious, the Dispenser of Grace,

1:4 (Asad) Lord of the Day of Judgment.

1:5 (Asad) Thee alone do we worship; and unto Thee alone do we turn for aid.

1:6 (Asad) Guide us the straight way.

1:7 (Asad) The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, [3] not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray! [4]

Please paste this in you browser and listen:

http://www.mp3quran.net/newMedia.php?id=1&file=http://server8.mp3quran.net/afs/001.mp3

Hasan

Greetings Hasan,
I figured you were resting for Ramadan since I've written a few replies to you that you had not responded to, but now I see that they have not been posted on the forum. Unhappy

My view on the crusades...
The crusades was about the Romans... specifically a Roman ruler named Constantinople who found Christianity(became a Christian) and decided to wave the banner of Christianity in his battles with the world... not the other way around. It was not the cause of Christianity to conquer the world. That was the cause of a Roman ruler, and rulers.
But the main thing here is we are talking about history. It was, and is, history.
No Christian establishment is telling any country today that its people have to live a certain way.
I am dealing with the present day Christian. When you view any secular country where Christians live, you are seeing the culture, not Christianity. Christians are only living within the culture.

I am glad to hear that your soul is 'alive and happy all day'. Smile

I agree the Surah you shared reads like a song... just as the Psalms.
I actually had tried to ask in a new post what the words of this Surah mean.
I will be glad to listen to the link you shared when I can get to another computer.
Thanks for sharing.
Smile

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 03 August 2012 at 4:44pm

Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:

that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection."

English reference

: Vol. 7, Book 69, Hadith 494A

Arabic reference

: Book 74, Hadith 5649

It was narrated that Al-Awza'i said:

"Umar bin 'Abdul-'Aziz wrote a letter to 'Umar bin Al-Walid in which he said: 'The share that your father gave to you was the entire Khumus,[1] but the share that your father is entitled to is the same as that of any man among the Muslims, on which is due the rights of Allah and His Messenger, and of relatives, orphans, the poor and wayfarers. How many will dispute with your father on the Day of Resurrection! How can he be saved who has so many disputants? And your openly allowing musical instruments and wind instruments is an innovation in Islam. I was thinking of sending someone to you who would cut off your evil long hair."'

English reference

: Vol. 5, Book 2, Hadith 4140

Arabic reference

: Book 39, Hadith 4152

Music and songs takes away the rememberence of Allah as the tune and the songs linger in the mind.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 August 2012 at 5:46pm

Abu Loren wrote:

[/QUOTE]<

Hello Hasan,

You say that "Music and songs takes away the rememberence of Allah as the tune and the songs linger in the mind."
which is absolutely true if ones listens to incorrect music.

For me, the music I listen to(which is Godly music only) helps to keep my mind focused on God rather than on worldly things... for precisely the reasons that you state... the music and words, which are words from scripture, linger in the mind. Even when I am not listening to music God will remind me of a song when I need a Word from Him. He speaks to me with His Word, whether in the form of music, or in thought. The Word of God is alive and active... It lives in me.

I believe it matters what kind of music we are talking about... what kind of music you listen to. There is much music in the world that is not helpful and leading away from God. But there is much music that worships and honors God... guiding the thoughts to God and Father.

If the music cleanses the soul it is good for the soul. If the music feeds the flesh it is death for the soul. - C. Lynn

mho
Heart

David honored God with music, and God acknowledged it.

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 03 August 2012 at 8:18pm

Caringheart wrote:

Abu Loren wrote:

David honored God with music, and God acknowledged it.

I'm not Hasan :)

David (pbuh) did not sing but he chanted the psalms, the same as Muhammed (pbuh) chanted the Holy Qur'an.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 August 2012 at 12:51pm

Abu Loren wrote:

I'm not Hasan :)

David (pbuh) did not sing but he chanted the psalms, the same as Muhammed (pbuh) chanted the Holy Qur'an.

I'm sorry Abu Loren. I didn't realize I had done that. Embarrassed

I was getting tired and must have made a mistake thinking I was responding to Hasan.

Yes, you are right about David. Chanting was considered song in those days. I think I talked about that... maybe in another thread? Smile

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 August 2012 at 4:06pm

Greetings Abu Loren,

It seems that we may both be somewhat wrong... Ermm

While I know that the early Christians, and the monks, did chant the Psalms as they went about their day and it was regular that they would chant a verse and the common people would respond with the next. This is how the Psalms were memorized and this is where prayer beads originated from.

I remembered this morning that David played the lyre, and so I looked it up and found this;

1 Samuel 10
As you approach the town, you will meet a procession of prophets coming down from the high place with lyres, timbrels, pipes and harps being played before them, and they will be prophesying.

Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the lyre. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes on you, and you will feel better.�

One of the servants answered, �I have seen a son of Jesse of Bethlehem who knows how to play the lyre.

Whenever the spirit from God came on Saul, David would take up his lyre and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.

2 Chronicles 29:25
He stationed the Levites in the temple of the LORD with cymbals, harps and lyres in the way prescribed by David and Gad the king�s seer and Nathan the prophet; this was commanded by the LORD through his prophets.

Psalm 33:2
Praise the LORD with the harp; make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.

David wrote the Psalms as music praising the Lord.

I need to begin study into Jewish tradition. I wonder how the Hebrews treated the Psalms?

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 9:44am

Caringheart wrote:

Greetings Abu Loren,

It seems that we may both be somewhat wrong... Ermm

As'alaamu Alaikkum

I can accept that music was used by the people of the scripture, however, music and singing is forbidden for the followers of Muhammed (pbuh).

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 6:39pm

Abu Loren wrote:

As'alaamu Alaikkum

I can accept that music was used by the people of the scripture, however, music and singing is forbidden for the followers of Muhammed (pbuh).

I did not know this.
What does the Qur'an say, if anything, about David who wrote the zabur?

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 7:13pm

I just found this;

Did Allah Almighty or Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him prohibit music?

There is not a single Noble Verse in the Noble Quran that prohibits music. In fact, music and songs are allowed in the Noble Quran as we saw above. Some Muslims however claim that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did prohibit music. Well, the section below actually proves the otherwise from the Sayings of Prophet Muhammad himself.

Muslims must also remember that when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him reached the Holy City of Madina from the Holy City of Mecca with his best friend Abu Bakr; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him, the Muslims played music and sang the famous Islamic song "Talaa El-Badru Alayna" which means "The full moon had come upon us."

The music that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him prohibited was the one that the infidels used to play which involved sexual activities by the women. It was part of the pagan Arabs' custom, and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him wanted to prevent Muslims to be anywhere near that type of music, because it was a sinful music; a music that led to sinful activities.

(citation: http://www.islamawareness.net/Music/prohibited.html)

Quranic verses which indicate the prohibition of music..... http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php?id=1381&category=126 -

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 August 2012 at 12:57pm

As I began my day today the following words came to me;
"Make music unto the Lord"
so I looked them up.

I came to share the following verses from the Zabur (and I it is my understanding that Muhammad said to believe in the Zabur).

Psalm 98, Psalm 100, and Psalm 147

Then I saw these two posts and which only serve to reinforce my disbelief in Muhammad.

Regarding what Abu Loren posted it reinforces that Muhammad was "double-minded", if you read and compare with the citation which I provided.
And "a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways"... "a double-minded man is as a wave tossed upon the seas and blown every way by the wind". The words attributed to Muhammad were always contradicting themselves.
[edit: a further thought... this is why I rely on what is written in the Qur'an rather than the Hadith's. The Hadith's easily seem to have been influenced by the minds of the men recording them.]

Regarding what Abuayisha posted, I read the citation and I don't see anywhere how the Sura's quoted have anything to do with music.

Did anyone read the citation which I provided?

I think I said in my first post though, I do not come to be a stumbling block to anyone who may belong to God, and so, by all means, if you feel that music will lead you away from God then you should stay away from music. I only find that it draws me near... and because I only listen to music that is honoring to God.
And I do not find that the Qur'an prohibits it, and I find that the Zabur promotes it.
Heart

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 August 2012 at 1:36pm

Caringheart wrote:

When I began my day today the following words came to me;"Make music unto the Lord"so I looked them up.I came to share the following verses from the Zabur (and I it is my understanding that Muhammad said to believe in the Zabur).Psalm 98, Psalm 100, and Psalm 147Then I saw these two posts and which only serve to reinforce my disbelief in Muhammad. �Regarding what Abu Loren posted it reinforces that Muhammad was "double-minded", if you read and compare with the citation which I provided.And "a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways"... "a double-minded man is as a wave tossed upon the seas and blown every way by the wind".� The words attributed to Muhammad were always contradicting themselves.Regarding what Abuayisha posted, I read the citation and I don't see anywhere how the Sura's quoted have anything to do with music.Did anyone read the citation which I provided?I think I said in my first post though, I do not come to be a stumbling block to anyone who may belong to God, and so, by all means, if you feel that music will lead you away from God then you should stay away from music.� I only find that it draws me near... and because I only listen to music that is honoring to God.And I do not find that the Qur'an prohibits it, and I find that the Zabur promotes it.[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />

Caringheart,
I see in your post above the proof that you are not here really to learn, but to offend others and put their belief down and that is a shame. I hope you seek guidance and not preach what you cannot practice.

As for the subject, let us first try to understand what one means by music. I have in my last post gave some input, but I guess more is needed.
Music may mean different things to different people depending their cultural background. For example, here in the West when people hear the Adhan (Muslim call for prayer) or Tilawah (recitation of the Quran) they consider it music. In an Islamic country people may not refer to the same a music. There they consider things like pop,rock and roll, rap, country songs as music.
So there is a difference in music, we need to be specific when we say which is allowed and which is not.
Praising God in a beautiful tone with a rhythm is part of Islam, you want to call it music others want to call it Praise, chant, Tilawah and so on. Of course God loves such act.
73:4 ... and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.
What you are describing as music (music unto the Lord), a Muslim like myself do it at least twenty times, a day or more when we recite Sura Faatiha in our daily five Salats.

Just listen to it, and tell me, isn't it a beautiful recital? music? and this brother's voice is just so beautiful, praise God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g

Note that there is no instrument used, you know why because instruments are used to enhance what one is saying. Here the power of word of God and its beauty need no support or enhancement from any instrument. The power of the word is in it purity without any additives.

I hope my explanation was of some help.
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 August 2012 at 2:04pm

honeto wrote:

Caringheart,
I see in your post above the proof that you are not here really to learn, but to offend others and put their belief down and that is a shame. I hope you seek guidance and not preach what you cannot practice.

As for the subject, let us first try to understand what one means by music. I have in my last post gave some input, but I guess more is needed.
Music may mean different things to different people depending their cultural background. For example, here in the West when people hear the Adhan (Muslim call for prayer) or Tilawah (recitation of the Quran) they consider it music. In an Islamic country people may not refer to the same a music. There they consider things like pop,rock and roll, rap, country songs as music.
So there is a difference in music, we need to be specific when we say which is allowed and which is not.
Praising God in a beautiful tone with a rhythm is part of Islam, you want to call it music others want to call it Praise, chant, Tilawah and so on. Of course God loves such act.
73:4 ... and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.
What you are describing as music (music unto the Lord), a Muslim like myself do it at least twenty times, a day or more when we recite Sura Faatiha in our daily five Salats.

Just listen to it, and tell me, isn't it a beautiful recital? music? and this brother's voice is just so beautiful, praise God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g

Note that there is no instrument used, you know why because instruments are used to enhance what one is saying. Here the power of word of God and its beauty need no support or enhancement from any instrument. The power of the word is in it purity without any additives.

I hope my explanation was of some help.
Hasan

I am sorry Hasan to hear that you take offense at me sharing something about myself. Unhappy

"I do not come to be a stumbling block to anyone who may belong to God, and so, by all means, if you feel that music will lead you away from God then you should stay away from music. I only find that it draws me near... and because I only listen to music that is honoring to God."

I did specify what music I felt was acceptable and what was not.

"I only listen to music that is honoring to God."

"I believe it matters what kind of music we are talking about... what kind of music you listen to. There is much music in the world that is not helpful and leading away from God. But there is much music that worships and honors God... guiding the thoughts to God and Father.

If the music cleanses the soul it is good for the soul. If the music feeds the flesh it is death for the soul. - C. Lynn"

________________________________________

"What you are describing as music (music unto the Lord), a Muslim like myself do it at least twenty times, a day or more when we recite Sura Faatiha in our daily five Salats. "

I have never disputed this fact.

"Just listen to it, and tell me, isn't it a beautiful recital? music? and this brother's voice is just so beautiful, praise God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g "

Thank you for reminding me... I never did get to a computer where I could listen to the link you sent me once before. I will try to do that today, as I think time and health will allow it today. Smile

It is always best to send me links, or references, in private message. This way I do not lose track of them when I am at a computer where I can look at them.

You did not need to explain yourself. I have understood what you say.
Heart

Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 3:22am

I think religions should not get involved with trivial things such as music. Religions should be about spreading goodness and how people can get along with each other. Most forms of music have a powerful capability to improve the health of human beings. The healing effects are scientifically proven. Music can also inspire us to do great things.

-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 8:32am

Matt Browne wrote:

I think religions should not get involved with trivial things such as music.

....Music can also inspire us to do great things.

If Religion is getting involved in something, that means its not trivial. Like you said, Music can inspire us to do things...

I am sure there is wisdom behind Islam discouraging certain types of music.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/09/opinion/the-sikh-temple-killers-music-of-hate.html?_r=1 - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/09/opinion/the-sikh-temple-killers-music-of-hate.html?_r=1

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/11/21/news_pf/Floridian/Iraq__n__roll.shtml - http://www.sptimes.com/2004/11/21/news_pf/Floridian/Iraq__n__roll.shtml

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 12:43pm

Chrysalis wrote:

Matt Browne wrote:

I think religions should not get involved with trivial things such as music.

....Music can also inspire us to do great things.

Yes. Good examples of bad music, and how the wrong music can have a bad influence.

What can be said about this? Is this the prayer(chant) that is said five times a day? What is its message? What thought does it implant in the reciters mind? Why do you think you are called to say it five times a day?

1:1 (Asad) In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Dispenser of Grace:
1:2 (Asad) All praise is due to God alone, the Sustainer of all the worlds,
1:3 (Asad) The Most Gracious, the Dispenser of Grace,
1:4 (Asad) Lord of the Day of Judgment.
1:5 (Asad) Thee alone do we worship; and unto Thee alone do we turn for aid.
1:6 (Asad) Guide us the straight way.

1:7 (Asad) The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray!

What about the call to prayer? The call to prayer sounds dangerously close to brain washing to me. If you repeat something often enough to yourself you are apt to believe it.
Mind control? Do not think that you are far, and you are safe, from the actions of these other extremists.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Something to be considered.

I have been bothered by this for some time but have said nothing.
I want to know what the Muslim interprets this prayer to mean.

You see... the prayer taught by Jesus... the Christian prayer, speaks only about themselves and God. Jesus makes no mention of Himself. It does not address other people but the relationship between the individual and God. As far as how to treat others it aks forgiveness for trespasses and says to forgive those who trespass against... and be led not into temptation. It says nothing about those who might lead us into temptation but places the responsibility between the individual and God.
Our Father, who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our trespasses
as we gorgive those who trespass against us
and lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from evil
Amen.

I bring this up on this thread only because it has been said that the Muslim's prayer is his music.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 3:32pm

Matt Browne wrote:

I think religions should not get involved with trivial things such as music. Religions should be about spreading goodness and how people can get along with each other. Most forms of music have a powerful capability to improve the health of human beings. The healing effects are scientifically proven. Music can also inspire us to do great things.

Matt,
that is only if we can define what religion is.
For me, as a Muslim, it is a way of life that guide me about everything from the time I open my eyes in the morning to the time I go back to sleep, and every moment in between. It is not a 9-5 and weekend off thing, it is 24/7.
It guides me from as basic things like how to go to bathroom properly to how clean one's self before presenting him/herself in front of our Creator, God Almighty. To not waste what I may have in abundance. How to properly take care of this body given to me in a trust and not misusing it. How to nourish my body and nourish my soul properly by following rules that allow certain things and behaviors and not allow others.
What are my duties and obligations to others, my family, neighbor, relatives and beyond, not to mention my Creator.
In short it covers and provide guidance toward every aspect of life, and I am willingly and happily abiding by its guidelines. I do not think anyone can tell me that I should not do it. It should not bother anyone, just like I do not bother my next door neighbor who may do everything opposite to it. What we may do however is to exchange ideas, with no obligation and no forcing, not to mention not putting the others down. And be ready to answer the questions to whom we preach, similarly I expect the one who preaches me to have their answer to my questions ready!
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 4:24pm

What can be said about this? Is this the prayer(chant) that is said five times a day? What is its message? What thought does it implant in the reciters mind? Why do you think you are called to say it five times a day?

You posted the translation of some of the verses we recite during prayer. Anything objectionable in its contents? The entire prayer is basically us asking for guidance and glorifying God.

What about the call to prayer? The call to prayer sounds dangerously close to brain washing to me. If you repeat something often enough to yourself you are apt to believe it.

Here are some things to consider:

- First of all, there is nothing objectionable in the contents of the Adhaan (call to prayer). It basically says God is Great, and come for prayers...

- Its not music.

- Majority of Muslims in this world (60-70% if not more) do not have Arabic for a mother tongue. Most of them don't even understand arabic. Even if the call to prayer was brain-washing, in order for these muslims to be brainwashed, they would need to understand what is being said.

You see... the prayer taught by Jesus... the Christian prayer, speaks only about themselves and God. Jesus makes no mention of Himself.

And the prayers taught to us by Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) also speak about God. We seek blessings for other Prophets and our parents during prayer.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 9:11pm

Chrysalis wrote:

It is the last line

"1:7 (Asad) The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray!"

Does this not refer to others besides self and God?

and the call to prayer

"Majority of Muslims in this world (60-70% if not more) do not have Arabic for a mother tongue. Most of them don't even understand arabic."

Wow, I did not know that. I naturally would think that all persons living in the mid-east(arab) nations were Arabic speaking. Either way, surely they know what the call to prayer says, no?

I bear witness that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 August 2012 at 11:12am

Caringheart wrote:

I am sorry Hasan to hear that you take offense at me sharing something about myself. [IMG]smileys/smiley6.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Unhappy" />

"I do not come to be a stumbling block to anyone who may belong to God, and so, by all means, if you feel that music will lead you away from God then you should stay away from music. I only find that it draws me near... and because I only listen to music that is honoring to God."

I did specify what music I felt was acceptable and what was not.

"I only listen to music that is honoring to God."

"I believe it matters what kind of music we are talking about... what kind of music you listen to.� There is much music in the world that is not helpful and leading away from God.� But there is much music that worships and honors God... guiding the thoughts to God and Father.

If the music cleanses the soul it is good for the soul.� If the music feeds the flesh it is death for the soul. - C. Lynn"

________________________________________"What you are describing as music (music unto the Lord), a Muslim like myself do it at least twenty times, a day or more when we recite Sura Faatiha in our daily five Salats. "I have never disputed this fact.

"Just listen to it, and tell me, isn't it a beautiful recital? music? and this brother's voice is just so beautiful, praise God.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g "

Thank you for reminding me... I never did get to a computer where I could listen to the link you sent me once before.� I will try to do that today, as I think time and health will allow it today.� [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />It is always best to send me links, or references, in private message.� This way I do not lose track of them when I am at a computer where I can look at them. You did not need to explain yourself.� I have understood what you say.[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />

Caringheart,
I think there is nothing wrong with music of praising God lifting your spirit. If you read my post, it depends what people describe as music. Like I have said, Adhan, and recitation of Quran is done in a balanced tones with rhythm, and is considered music by out siders, no instrument needed!
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 4:00am

Chrysalis wrote:

If Religion is getting involved in something, that means its not trivial. Like you said, Music can inspire us to do things... I am sure there is wisdom behind Islam discouraging certain types of music.

That depends on how you define the scope of your religion. Some Muslims refuse to use tooth brushes and tooth paste and use wood to clean their teeth just like prophet Muhammad did. Now is cleaning your teeth trivial or not? Should religion focus on this or should it focus on how 7 billion people on a small planet can get along with each other? And how everyone can live a decent life instead of poverty? The problem of strict orthodox Islam is that it tries to get involved into every minute of a devout Muslim's life and require obedience even if it doesn't make sense in the 21st century.

I totally agree with you that there is horrible music out there which is totally dumb, disgusting and mind-numbing. I discourage this and if Islam discourages that too, that's fine with me. Just out of curiosity, does Islam encourage or discourage Bach's Brandenburg concertos? What about the Beatles?

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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 3:04pm

Its like asking can a basketball player text while playing?
There are too many things involved. Music artist are often treated as idols that creates a conflict of belief. Often, the contents of their music are objectionable, unknown. Those artists taken as idols, them and their lives are sometimes not good moral examples thus creating a conflict. How can you listen and admire someone for their music when they are at odds with your belief of what is good and what is bad. List is long but I hope the point is made. We can find all excuses and ways to please ourselves and keep progressing in it with time always taking a step further by turning unlawful into lawful, but a believer by heart and mind find ways to please his maker consistently while enjoying what is made lawful for him. Does it come at some price? Yes. Does it please everyone else? No. Does it make him look idle and unwilling to compromise? Yes. That's just a good believer.

My two cents.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 August 2012 at 3:43pm

No one ever answered my questions about David and the Zabur, and what it says in the Zabur...

Psalm 98, Psalm 100, and Psalm 147

"What does the Qur'an say, if anything, about David who wrote the zabur?"

Thanks.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 August 2012 at 9:39pm

honeto wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g
Hasan

It is indeed beautiful and moving.

I hope the message is just as beautiful.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 12:47pm

Matt Browne wrote:

That depends on how you define the scope of your religion.

There is nothing in a muslim's life that is outside the scope of religion. Islam is a lifestyle not restricted to a weekly sunday-service. Even if a muslim uses the washroom with correct etiquette, it becomes an act of worship.

Some Muslims refuse to use tooth brushes and tooth paste and use wood to clean their teeth just like prophet Muhammad did. Now is cleaning your teeth trivial or not? Should religion focus on this or should it focus on how 7 billion people on a small planet can get along with each other?

I know many Muslims who use a ''miswaak'' but have no issues with modern-day toothpaste. They use modern-day toothbrushes as well as the traditional miswaak during wudhu (ablution).

I don't think dental hygiene is trivial at all. I find it amazing that our religion teaches us dental hygiene as part of religion. Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) said that had he not feared inconvenience for us, he would have made it compulsory for us to brush our teeth in every ablution (wudhu). By making miswaak sunnah, Islam makes brushing our teeth an act of worship, hence rewardworthy, hence motivating muslims to make it a daily regiment. Maybe that's the reason Muslims had all their teeth when non-muslim westerners were using wooden dentures in their youth ;)

The Miswaak is just one example. Islam makes eating, drinking, earning, sex, everything a part of religion.

Also, I don't see how addressing issues such as music, hygiene etc means that Islam cannot or does not focus on issues like bringing 7 billion people together? Religion is not a ''person'' that can only focus on one thing at a time... Religion should/can address everything.

In fact, it is attention to detail and ''little things'' that brings muslims together. Billions of Muslims around the world pray the same way, have the same dietary laws, fast at the same time etc. Things that you term trivial actually brings muslims together and despite having cultural and geographical differences, we still have a sense of togetherness because of shared rituals and values.

The problem of strict orthodox Islam is that it tries to get involved into every minute of a devout Muslim's life and require obedience even if it doesn't make sense in the 21st century.

Just because things don't make sense to you in the 21st century, doesn't mean they don't make sense to the people who follow them. I understand that for many non-muslim men, getting married in their early 20s wouldn't make sense these days... but it makes sense to practicing Muslims. (and many Jews and Christians too I think). For many young girls, covering up and dressing modestly wouldn't make sense... but for others it does. Don't try to trivialise other's principles and values just because you don't understand them.

If we choose to spend every minute of our life according to Islamic principles, so what? Yes, We pray 5 times a day, sometimes more. We have ''prayers'' for everything from looking into the mirror to wearing clothes. Things that may seem ''strict & orthodox'' to you, seem beautiful to me. We do it out of our own free-will and choice.

In an image-conscious, superficial world, every time a Muslim looks into the mirror, he/she is supposed to say ""O Allah, just as You have made my external features beautiful, make my character beautiful as well''. I find that refreshing! ''Little things'' like this remind you and re-focus your mind on whats important.

Just out of curiosity, does Islam encourage or discourage Bach's Brandenburg concertos? What about the Beatles?

Now THAT issue to me is trivial ;). Does it matter what Islam has to say about Bach's concertos or the Beatles? trivial stuff.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 7:16pm

Chrysalis wrote:

If we choose to spend every minute of our life according to Islamic principles, so what? Yes, We pray 5 times a day, sometimes more. We have ''prayers'' for everything from looking into the mirror to wearing clothes. Things that may seem ''strict & orthodox'' to you, seem beautiful to me. We do it out of our own free-will and choice.

What do you mean by "free will"? Do you truly have a choice, if all your choices are dictated by your religion? I mean, what if you actually like music, just for its own sake? Why can't you freely choose something just for your own enjoyment, even if it is "outside the scope of religion"?

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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.

Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 11 September 2012 at 3:59am

Chrysalis, I hope you don't imply that the practice of Christianity is restricted to attending Sunday services. In fact, we can decide whether to pray one time or ten times a day and the prayer involves free will and creativity in our personal conversation with God (not just the mechanical repetition of a predefined texts).

I also noted that you emphasized that it's the 'little things' that brings Muslims together. This is one aspect I find so troubling about Islam. It's all about the Ummah and bringing Muslims together. This approach divides humanity. I have no problem with big things. The birth of Christ brings Christians together. The Lord's Supper brings Christians together. But there are thousands of little things in daily life. If they all are about Islam, how much time is left to interact with the rest of humanity? If religion gets involved in every minute of our lives, it becomes an obsession. When we conduct scientific research this has nothing to do with Islam or Christianity, except perhaps the motivation that we should use our intellect to unravel the mysteries of the world. Science can unity us, therefore I am strictly against the absurd notion of Islamic science or Christian science. There is only one science. And it's universal. And a lot of things in daily life are universal too. A smile is universal. Empathy is universal. Toothbrushes are universal. Even the basic building blocks of music are universal tied to the architecture of our brains.

And now I'm asking you: What do you think about Bach's Brandenburg concertos and the songs of the Beatles such as 'Yesterday'?

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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt