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Fate of non-believers

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Topic: Fate of non-believers
Posted By: human
Subject: Fate of non-believers
Date Posted: 06 September 2005 at 2:00pm

This is directed to Israfil, Mockba and others who believe that God prefers Muslims to other human beings.

Recently I visited Salt Lake City and I took a tour of the Mormon Temple. Actually it was the temple square, not the temple itself, because temple is open only to mormons. Anyhow, there was this young lady of about 18-20 years, who gave us a nice tour of the church, and other exhibits in the locality. What impressed me about her was that she was a college student who had dedicated one year of her life as a volunteer to spread the Mormon message. Someone who looked like a skeptic asked her a question. It is all very well that God takes care of those who have been baptized. How about those who have never heard of the Bible and specifically the Mormon Bible. Are they condemned to go to hell? She replied very cheerfully that that is not the case. Once they die, they are baptized by God and taken to heaven.

Same question could be asked of Islam. What about those people who have never heard of the Quoran and Mohammed. Are they condemned to hellfire even if they follow a virtuous life?

Human 




Replies:
Posted By: mouhssine4
Date Posted: 06 September 2005 at 2:10pm

Same question could be asked of Islam. What about those people who have never heard of the Quoran and Mohammed. Are they condemned to hellfire even if they follow a virtuous life?

salam upon those who had followed the right path

your question is very fair and the answer will be fair also i hope

you see my freind one of the attribut of God is fairness and just

so in the day of the judgment all judgment are gonna be fair and just

otherwise we would not be among the God of all things

therefore any humaine being will have a chance in his or her life to know the truth, per example you, you are learning about islam by visiting this site, will know it some other ways

i hope i was helpfull

 



Posted By: tracy
Date Posted: 06 September 2005 at 2:53pm


 Well i hope i get to heaven i may have to knock the door a few times but he will let me in

At the end of the day WHAT EVER your beliefs may be as long as you live a good life and do not follow the evil one the guy in the sky will look after you and i can say that and havent read the koran



Posted By: mouhssine4
Date Posted: 06 September 2005 at 3:03pm

salam upon those who had followed the right path

hi tracy we are all born with what you have said it is called fitra in Islam it is something that distingush us from other being the problems is that we need tool to acomplish the task the one of being good and protecting ouself from evil

and that has been the role of all prophet peace be upon them

and the last version of the "humans soul operating system" is the Holy Coran, it has tools  that if followed will knock off evil and his children

 

i like what you have said " i may have to knock the door a few times "LOL,  you are right nobody knows if he will be lucky to get in or not but we all count on God being mercifull

take care



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 06 September 2005 at 5:12pm
>>>>This is directed to Israfil, Mockba�and others who believe
that God prefers Muslims to other human beings.<<<<<<

Human,

My apologies if I don't have the luxury of answering your
questions right away. Now you posed the statement of God
preferring Muslims over other humans now let's get something
clear. First off I never said God prefers Muslims. If I did mention
this then i contradict the eschatology of ahadith which mentions
that Muslims will be in hellfire, if such a God prefers Muslims
over other humans then such a God would not allow his people
to suffer (in accordance to tradition of Hadith).

Second I have always said and believe that good people can
go to heaven but in such a matter that I present that I have to
clarify that Heaven, which is the realm where one is nearest to
God is a step that much be acheived through the faithful actions
of the individual alone. Now I cannot get around the theology
that those who believe in God's Oneness are those who
according to Quranic theology will acheive paradise.

Now in matters of not having faith I cannot comment because
as I have mentioned before God has mercy and only he knows
their fate. As for those of other religions other non-monotheistic
religions the same rules apply. when it comes to other
monotheistic faiths of the Abrahamic tradition or non-
Abrahamic tradition (such as Sikhs and Zoroastrians) I would
say they are among those who have the knowledge that the
Qur'an mentions and if pious will be those among the righteous
in paradise. Human I can comment what Quranic philosophy
would allow me.

The Qur'an does mention that those who reject Allah and that
the religion of Allah is Islam. but you have to understand that
Islam is not just composed of the Shahada but also other
elements one I'd like to mention which is Tawhid (Oneness of
God). Now if other religions hold this as an essential attribute to
the structure of their religion then I see nothing contrary to the
Qur'an admitting them into paradise. There is more to it but I
just wanted to clarify that point.



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 06 September 2005 at 6:27pm

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

>>>>
Islam is not just composed of the Shahada but also other
elements one I'd like to mention which is Tawhid (Oneness of
God). Now if other religions hold this as an essential attribute to
the structure of their religion then I see nothing contrary to the
Qur'an admitting them into paradise. There is more to it but I
just wanted to clarify that point.

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.003 -

 

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.085 - (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)

 

"Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.067 - (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:67)

 

The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.

In http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/007.qmt.html#007.172 - Soorah Al-A'raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:'

Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain That it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".

Indeed sometimes we stray from the Straight Path because we are not implementing the second part of the shahaadah in the proper way.  When we testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah we are testifying and stating our belief that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) was chosen by Allaah to be His Messenger and to convey His Message. Allaah says in the Qur'aan: "And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and He chooses" (al-Qasas, 68) Allaah creates and has power to do all things. Allaah specifically chose the Prophet Muhammad (saw) to be His Messenger. In another verse, Allaah says, "Allaah knows best with whom to place His Message" (al-Anaam, 124) This automatically implies some characteristics of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) as obviously Allaah would not choose one who is treacherous or lying to be His Messenger. Allaah would not choose anyone for such an important mission whom He knew would not convey the message or who would use the position to his own advantage. If anyone claims that the Prophet (saw) did not actually convey the entire message or that he distorted it in any way, he is actually saying that Allaah did not know who was the correct or best person to be a messenger. This is obvious disbelief.

It is obligatory upon everyone from the time of the Prophet (Saw) until the Day of Judgement to believe and follow the Prophet (saw). If the message of Islaam clearly reaches a person and he still refuses to believe in and follow the Prophet (saw), he is a disbeliever and will be in the Hellfire forever - unless he repents and embraces Islaam. However, this also implies that the Prophet's teaching and his sunnah are valid and obligatory upon all of mankind. That is, his example and teaching was not simply for the people of Arabia at his time. Instead, it is just as valid and just as important for each and every Muslim today, whether he be in New York or Malaysia. The Prophet (saw) has been sent to all of us. His example and teaching is for all of us. Some people seem to try to resist the idea that they have to follow the Prophet (saw).

There is no need for us to turn to the books of the Jews or Christians. Indeed, the Prophet (saw) told Umar when he saw him reading the Torah, that if the Prophet Musa were alive at his time, he would also have to follow the Prophet Muhammad (saw). There is no need for us to turn to the Greek philosophers to learn about our theology. There is no need for us to turn to the philosophers, the psychologists, the feminist leaders or the right wing leaders of today or anybody else for us to get guidance. All that we need is to be found in the Qur'aan and Sunnah. We testify to that fact. We bear witness that the Prophet (saw) conveyed the entire message. This is all part of the meaning of our shahaadah. When we declare, "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah", we are also declaring that he is the final prophet sent by Allaah. Allaah says in the Qur'aan, "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the Last of the Prophets" (al-Ahzab, 40)

 It is very strange that some people can declare the testimony of faith and declare that Muhammad is the Messenger and Prophet of Allaah yet at the same time they do not consider him an example of the way of life that a believer should follow. Not only do they not take him as an example for themselves, they actually oppose others who do take the Prophet (saw) as their example. This is nothing but a clear sign that such a person does not have a clear understanding of the meaning and implications of the testimony of faith that he made. May Allaah forgive us all. The Prophet (saw) said, "I swear by Allaah that I am the most fearful of Allaah and most conscious of Him than all of you. But I also [as part of my sunnah] fast and break my fast, pray and sleep [at night], and marry women. Whoever turns away from my sunnah is not from me [i.e. is not one of my followers]." (al-Bukhaari). In this hadith, the Prophet (saw) explained that he is the most fearful of Allaah and God-conscious. Therefore, there is no excuse for anyone not to follow his example and guidance. But he also stated that the one who turns away from his practice and example is not from him. That is, he is not one of his true followers. One cannot claim to believe and accept the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and then at the same time refuse to accept his life and example that one must strive to emulate and follow. Also when we make the shahaadah, it becomes obligatory upon us to give the Prophet (saw) our complete obedience. Allaah has made this very clear in numerous places in the Qur'aan. For example, He says; "O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger!" (an-Nisa, 59) Allaah also says, "He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah, but he who turns away, then We have no sent you (O Muhammad) as a watcher over them" (an-Nisa, 59) In addition to obedience to the Prophet (saw) we must also accept him as a judge - meaning that whatever the Prophet has decreed, decided or ordered, we must accept his decision and accept it completely without any feeling of ill-will in our hearts toward what he has decided. This is also very clear in the Qur'aan. Note the following verses "But know, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) will full submission." (an-Nisa, 65) And "If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you truly believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination." (an-Nisa, 59).

 

 

 

 



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 06 September 2005 at 8:07pm

Bismillah

Great post, Abuaysha. Strong and valid support. 

Our final destination is known to Allah alone, indeed. And Allah has Himself made numerous mentions in the Quran which clearly point to us what are the main qualities of those who will be permitted enter Paradise and of those who will be rejected and thrown into Hellfire.  

The problem is that some people prefer to think that no-matter what they do, whether they believe or disbelieve - their destination is happiness. So, they invented a shortcut and issued themselves license to do whatever they want as long as they "think" it is good. They claim that someone has already paid for their sins... and no matter what, the moment they die they are taken to heaven. It is something like, "if you did not study in university just come and see me and i will issue you whatever degree you like"... only that its a fake. 

This because they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days": For their forgeries deceive them as to their own religion. (3:24 Quran)

There are also some who try to comprehend God and His attributes by a limited intellect they have been endowed with and without reference to the Quran (the purest source of guidance for mankind)and authentic ahadeeth. They consider Quran and hadith as a secondary source of knowledge relying heavily on what they assume to be their "wisdom".

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah., never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). (3:85 Quran) 

As far as those who have never heard of Islam Allah is indeed the Most Just and will judge their fate in ways that are most just.



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MOCKBA


Posted By: Lameese
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 1:38am

What about Muslims who turn people away from Islam with their attitudes? What will Allah do for them?

Just curious.

 

Lameese



Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 4:18am

Assalamu alaikum,

Excellent posts Abuayisha and Mockba!  It does indeed seem that those who truly follow the Qur'an and Sunnah are very few in number these days.  So many seem to prefer their own wisdom.  So many want to follow their own particular kind of Islam. 

This site is over-run with doubters, do-it-yourselfers, and those trying hard to persuade the weak minded away from Islam.  It is especially sad when some find those who try hard to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah possess an "attitude".

All things are unfolding according to Allah's plan.

May Allah pour Blessings and Mercy upon the Believers and keep their resolve strong.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 4:42am

Bismillah

Originally posted by Lameese Lameese wrote:

What about Muslims who turn people away from Islam with their attitudes? What will Allah do for them?

Lameese, Allah is the Most Just and therefore we should not be worried aboute the final judgement... everyone will be treated justly.

May Allah forgive us all and guide us to the Straight Path.



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MOCKBA


Posted By: Lameese
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 9:15am
Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

Bismillah

Originally posted by Lameese Lameese wrote:

What about Muslims who turn people away from Islam with their attitudes? What will Allah do for them?

Lameese, Allah is the Most Just and therefore we should not be worried aboute the final judgement... everyone will be treated justly.

May Allah forgive us all and guide us to the Straight Path.

 

We should not be worried about the final judgement???



Posted By: Community
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 9:26am

You all forget this verse?

Verily the jews(yahood"those who guide with the guidance) christians sabians, whoever has faith in Allah and worked mending deeds, on them shall be no fear nor shall they be put to grief.

Surat al maida(the table) i believe.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 11:47am

Community correct,

Even though we Muslims follow the last revelation of God and supplimental text such as Hadith we must not rule out those whose hearts are also aware of God and his oneness and his message. Again when I speak of those who are non-Muslim I'm referring to those of other monotheistic faiths. Now I'm sure a member here would challenge the thought "If they truly believe in God then they would accept Muhammad as their prophet."

I can ask the very same question when Muhammad went to Yathrib and encountered the existing Jewish tribe there. The only thing he ask of them was that they (the Jewish tribe) find him a legitimate prophetic figure. Not once did he ask them to revere him as they revered Moses. Now the same can be equated to those of non-Muslim faiths who do uphold Abrahamic tradition. I believe anyone who is ever cognizant of God and follow their respective doctrines (so long as it is not opposed to monotheism) then again I repeat there is no contradiction here to Quranic theology.



Posted By: Community
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 5:57pm
In the koran it it says that in the prophet there is "a good example" "usuwatun 'hasanatun" it does not say "the only good example", i think alot of muslims should really understand Allah being The Merciful, and that all He asks is to have faith in Him and the last(hereafter), If one does have faith in Him and the last then this person will recognize every prophet and messenger who came with this message. And work mending deeds, to do good because after all when this life is over the only thing that will remain on earth is the results of your deeds and your words for others. If you been bad and did bad(brought corruption to the world instead of working to mend it) then you will be judged for that and if you did something good in this world you will get your reward for it in the hereafter or this world or both. Make peace with your Lord, and stop trying to make everyone like yourselves. Nothing is except by His will, no need for feelings of frustration with others being different. Really in this world that is getting smaller and smaller we need to be the leading force in peace and reconciling people. Intollerance is something that HAS to come to an end.


Posted By: Community
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 6:08pm

Also what is very important, not to bring destinction between any of His messengers, because i think this results in one group claiming their messenger is better then the other and wishing to force others to be like them because afterall they have a better messenger, like what muslims christians and jews are doing, call it the old nationalism.

The main point of focus is Allah ofcourse, Him being pleased is what the goal is and if you work for this, Jesus, Moses, Muhammed all the messengers will love you, because that was what they were doing and they love those who love The Lord above everyone else, including their ownselves, because to them it was not about them, it is about Allah, and whoever loves Allah is loved by His servants. Think of it this way, you as a servant would you like if people loved you more then Allah? or would you feel greatly disturbed by this? moreover what if one group loved another servant of Allah more then Allah Himself and this group and the group that love you hate eachother because they can not stand that people love someone else more then their own loved one. This i tell you is not love, because love is not something uncomfortable for the loved or the lovers. So what is it? a sickness.



Posted By: Community
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 6:16pm

One Nation Under God, Ummiy does not mean unlettered like so many translations want us to believe, Ummiy has a connection to the word Ummah(clear), community. So i believe it means he who unites as one community, Ummiy"



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 6:24pm

 

 

A person says, �I believe that there is One God, who created the universe, but I am going to stop there�; I will not pray to Him or fast or perform Hajj or pay zakaat.  I am not going to carry out any duties towards Him; I will follow my own desires and do whatever I want, whether He permitted it or forbade it.  Can such a person attain salvation on the Day of Judgment?

 

 

Allah sent Messengers to every nation, that they might worship Him and shun false deities.  Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent by Allah to mankind, the entire world, and thus abrogated the previous laws and made this religion of Islam obligatory for everyone to enter.  Allah says; �And whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.� (Aal Imraan 3:85)

 

On this basis the fate of a person who says � I believe in the idea of One God, but do not want to be a Muslim and follow the last Revelation or the last Messenger, is clear and evident.

 

Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam� [Aal �Imraan 3:19]



Posted By: Community
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 6:53pm

�And whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.� (Aal Imraan 3:85)

Listen this mixing of language needs to stop, we have the english language and we have the arab language, so if you translate this verse from Arabic into English do not just suddenly use an arabic word in it,

�And whoever seeks another way of life(deen) other than engaging the peace (or submission for the sake of peace), it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.� (Aal Imraan 3:85)

The peace with who? Allah above everyone else.

How? have faith in Allaha and then doing a mending work('amalan saalihan)

Whoever has faith in Allaha and does good because he knows there is a hereafter. This one is of the faithful. One who does mending good deeds for the sake of peace with Allah and to avoid His anger is a faithful.



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by Lameese Lameese wrote:

Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

Bismillah

Originally posted by Lameese Lameese wrote:

What about Muslims who turn people away from Islam with their attitudes? What will Allah do for them?

Lameese, Allah is the Most Just and therefore we should not be worried aboute the final judgement... everyone will be treated justly.

May Allah forgive us all and guide us to the Straight Path.

 

We should not be worried about the final judgement???

As far as what will Allah will do for those who misrepresent and distort Islam, i think we leave it to Allah and not worry about His Justice. That is what i meant in a little context... and i am sure you understood it. 



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MOCKBA


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 7:18pm

Bismillah

Community, the only purest reference you can find when it comes to reading and studying the Qur'an is in Arabic language. Islam is Islam whether one translates it as "submission", or one relates it to its common root with "salam" or peace. It is not unification of religions... it is return to the original monotheistic faith which is to be observed in a manner instructed by Allah through His Last Prophet - Muhammad (peace be upon him).

If one refuses however to acknowledge Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the final Messenger of Allah his declaration of faith is incomplete... for the Messenger calls to none other but Allah and not to himself.

For brother Israfil, I would recommend continue reading the story of Jewish tribes in Yathrib and share with us the development of events. The migration of the early Companions to Abyssiniya would have been a better example... but that would start up a different discussion.



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MOCKBA


Posted By: Community
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 8:30pm

Islam submission for the sake of peace, or engaging the peace. This is required because if one does certain acts of service to The Lord but does this for another reason then to please Him, so he does not do this act of service for the sake of Peace with Him, the act of service is not accepted by Allah. So He will not accept any way of life except the way of engaging the peace or submission for the sake of peace.

As for jews christians and whoever else, if they work to please and do things that are pleasing Him for the sake of everlasting peace(with Him) then this is the right course, why would such person deny any prophet including Muhammed?, i think the problem really is those who claim to follow the prophet showing alot of intollerance and traditionalism and ofcourse recently alot of anger through the media which makes people weary of "muslims". But the faithful from amongst mankind, wether in China or The US of A from which ever culture or faith, accept Muhammed as a messenger of The One and Only God. But not all will agree to become an arab because of their faith in The Lord, faith is something that goes beyond a particular geographic culture, faith in The One god in fact makes people openminded and critical of injustice in which ever culture this may be. Because the way of Allaha is the way of justice also, and when the faithful see injustice they will ofcourse wish to change it.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 9:00pm

Abuayshia you said:

>>>A person says, �I believe that there is One God, who created the universe, but I am going to stop there�<<<<

Again you are not considering the other monotheistic faiths who have practiced the worship of the One God long before Islam came to Arabia. I am not saying that as of now all other monotheistic traditions within the sphere of the Abrahamic culture are  right in their modern context. What I am saying is that with our interpretation we make it really difficult and more so complex when we add: "Well you're right to believe in God but in the wrong religion" Allah says in the Qur'an that there is no compulsion in religion. Therefore for us to say this group is wrong because they stop short of being Muslim is a judgement left for God.

Yes it does say the religion of Allah is Al-Islam, but Islam is a wide spectrum and I believe even the most simplistic tenents of other monotheistic traditions can fit within this spectrum. I'm not at liberty to say whether they are right or wrong because that is a judgement left for God. What I am at liberty to say is that Allah is our goal and final destination. I hold Islam to be a bit more pluralistic than how modern scholars interpret it. I believe that the message of Islam is that mankind must be cognizant of him and him only.

The Pagan Arabs lost that when they worshipped Al-Illah along with Uzzah and Manat. I believe that for those of other monotheistic traditions they too fall under the simple tenents of Islam. For those who have not heard the message of Islam I don't think they have the "burden" as the one who hears the message. I believe that if that person is good and lives right then there is no worry in that person. I'm very limited in what I say in regards to Islamic pluralism so I'll leave it there.

MOCKBA perhaps you can be kind enough to correct me where I was wrong

 



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 12:36am

Bismillah

I did not say you were wrong but if you noticed, the Jewish tribes were expelled in shame from Yathrib and later from the Arabian Peninsular... and very clearly not because they were followers of Abrahamic monotheist faith and culture as you seem to imply when referring to no-Muslim "believers".



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MOCKBA


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 1:44am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

Any person who does not believe in Allah and his messenger, is held accountable and punished for not believing in Islam and there place is Hell. This is the black and white simple truth, but as i have stated in other threads according to "some" scholars those who said la illaha illah llah will be taken out of hell after how ever long Allah decrees for them to be in there.

There is no other destination for those who are have not believed in Allah's religion, whether for some of them this is eternal that is another question.

Regarding those who have not had a proper chance to learn about Islam Sister nausheen posted this in another thread.

The Fate of Non-Muslims in the Afterlife 

The reason that contemporary writers affected by the writings of Gunon and Schuon, such as Chittick and Gai Eaton (or such as Martin Lings, Titus Burckhardt etc.), seem to want the universal validity of all religions at any price, even to the extent of attributing it to masters like Muhyiddin ibn al-`Arabi ("in principle") or Emir `Abd al-Qadir ("he protected the Christians against massacre by taking them into his own home because he understood" [as if other scholars considered massacring them halal]) would seem to be the emotive impalatability of followers of other religions going to hell. Where is the mercy? Would Allah put someone in the hellfire merely for worshipping in another religion besides Islam? This question is answered by traditional Islam according to two possibilities:  

(1) There are some peoples who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace) that we must worship the One God alone, associating nothing else with Him. Such people are innocent, and will not be punished no matter what they do. Allah says in surat al-Isra',  

"We do not punish until We send a Messenger" (Qur'an 17:15). 

These include, for example, Christians and others who lived in the period after the spread of the myth of Jesus godhood, until the time of the prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), who renewed the call to pure monotheism.  

The great Muslim scholar, Imam Ghazali, includes in this category those who have only been reached with a distorted picture of the Messenger of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace), presumably including many people in the West today who know nothing about Allah's religion but newspaper stories about Ayatollahs and mad Muslim bombers. Is it within such people's capacity to believe? In Ghazali's view, such people are excused until after they have had an opportunity to learn the undistorted truth about Islam (Ghazali: "Faysal al-tafriqa," Majmu'a rasa'il al-Imam al-Ghazali, 3.96). This of course does not alter our own obligation as Muslims to reach them with the da'wa.  

(2) A second group of people consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with His message, and to whom He has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this, persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with His prerogative to be worshipped as He directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:  

"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills" (Qur'an 4:48). 

In either case, Allah's mercy exists, though for non-Muslims unreached by the message, it is a question of divine amnesty for their ignorance, not a confirmation of their religions validity. It is worth knowing the difference between these two things, for one's eternal fate depends on it.




-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 6:38am

It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): �� And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).� [al-Israa� 17:15].

In his tafseer (commentary) on this aayah, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: �These words, ��And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)� tell us of the justice of Allaah, may He be exalted, and that He does not punish anyone until after He has established evidence against him by sending a Messenger to him. This is like the aayat (interpretation of the meaning): �� Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, �Did no warner come to you?� They will say, �Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: �Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.��� [al-Mulk 67:8] and: �And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups, till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened (suddenly like a prison at the arrival of its prisoners). And its keepers will say, �Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, - reciting to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?� They will say: �Yes, but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!�� [al-Zumar 39:71]��

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree�, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: �There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of �Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, �O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.� The insane man will say, �O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.� The very old man will say, �O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.� The man who died during the fatrah will say, �O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.� He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.�

According to another report, he said: �Whoever enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and whoever does not enter it will be dragged to it.� (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan, and deemed saheeh by al-Albaani, Saheeh al-Jaami�, 881).



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 7:00am
The Conditions of La ilaha illa-llah
 
Every Muslim knows that the key to Paradise is the statement, "There is none worthy of worship except Allaah." Yet too many Muslims simply rely upon this statement and believe that as long as they have made this statement, nothing will harm them.
They think they will be granted Paradise because of this mere verbal statement of the Shahaadah. There is no question that the mere saying of," I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah and I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger," is not sufficient for salvation. In fact, the hypocrites used to make this statement quite often yet Allaah describes them as liars and says that they shall abide in the lowest abyss of the Hell-fire.

As many scholars state, though, this statement or testimony is the key to Paradise. The famous follower Wahb ibn Munabbih was once asked, " Isn't the statement of la ilaha illa-llah the key to Paradise?" He answered, "Yes, but every key has ridges. If you come with the key that has the right ridges, the door will open for you. Yet if you do not have the right ridges the door will not open for you." That is, the statement must meet certain conditions. These conditions are what will differentiate the person who will benefit from his making of that statement from the one who will not benefit from that statement, no matter how many times a day he may have made that statement.

If we study the verses of the Qur�aan and the Hadeeth of the Prophet (peace be upon him), we will find that the conditions of the shahaadah are seven, eight or nine in number depending on how we look at them. It is important that all of us make sure that we are meeting these conditions in our own lives and in our own testimony of faith. We must do our best to satisfy these conditions before it is too late and our testimony will be of no avail whatsoever. It is not simply for the sake of teaching these conditions, indeed there is no benefit to that. But it is, instead, for all of us to look to ourselves and to make sure that we are actually meeting these conditions so that, by Allaah's mercy, the doors to Paradise will be open for us by our key of la ilaha illa-llah.

These are the nine conditions of Shahaadah:

1- KNOWLEDGE:

That is, one must have the basic and general knowledge of what is meant by the shahaadah. One must understand what the shahaadah is affirming and what the shahaadah is denying. Allaah says in the Qur�aan,

"So know that there is no God save Allaah, and ask forgiveness for your sin" (Muhammad: 19).

Similarly, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, �Whoever dies knowing that there is no one worthy of worship except Allaah shall enter Paradise.� (Recorded by Muslim).

In fact, the shahaadah itself is a testimony. When one testifies to something, one must know what it is that he is testifying concerns. Obviously, a testimony about something that one does not have any knowledge about is absolutely unacceptable. Allaah says in the Qur�aan,

" Save him who bears witness unto the truth knowingly" (al-Zukhruf: 86).

Now this condition probably sounds obvious; if someone said to you, "There is no God except Allaah," and then said that what he meant by Allaah was Jesus, you would immediately tell him that this shahaadah is nonsense. Yet can you imagine that there is a Muslim country in the world that until recently used to have a yearly weeklong celebration to "the Gods of the Sea"! All along they call themselves Muslims and they make the shahaadah numerous times a day.

This clearly shows that they have no idea what the meaning of their shahaadah is. Do you think that this kind of shahaadah will open the doors to Paradise for them? Today, there are many Muslims who wonder why we should not accept secularism. They think that there is nothing wrong with secularism! Many of these Muslims pray five times a day and utter the shahaadah repeatedly. Yet they see nothing wrong with accepting a Lawgiver other than Allaah? What kind of shahaadah are these people making?

All of us do our best to learn at least the basics of Islaamic beliefs, the basics of what shahaadah means. In this way, Allaah willing, we will be making the correct shahaadah. We will be witnessing to the truth as we are supposed to be witnesses to it.

2- CERTAINTY (or al-yaqeen):

This is the opposite of doubt and uncertainty. In Islaam, in fact, any kind of doubt is equivalent to Kufr or disbelief. We must, in our hearts, be absolutely certain of the truth of the shahaadah. Our hearts must not be wavering in any way when we testify to the truth of, "There is none worthy of worship except Allaah." Allaah describes the believers in the Qur�aan as those who have belief in Allaah and then their hearts waver not. Allaah says,

"the (true) believers are those only who believe in Allaah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allaah. Such are the sincere" (al-Hujuraat : 15).

Similarly, the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said, "No one meets Allaah with the testimony that there is none worthy of worship but Allaah and I am the Messenger of Allaah, and he has no doubt about hat statement, except that he will enter Paradise." (Recorded by Muslim.)

Indeed, Allaah describes the hypocrites as those people whose hearts are wavering. For example, Allaah says,

"They alone seek leave of thee (not to participate in jihad) who believe not in Allaah and the Last Day and whose hearts feel doubt, so in their doubt they waver" (al-Tauba: 45).

Many scholars have stated that the diseases of the heart, or the doubt and suspicions that one allows into one's heart, are more dangerous for a person's faith than lusts and desires. This is because lusts and desires may be satisfied at some time yet the person still knows them to be wrong and he may control himself and repent and give up that evil deed. On the other hand, the doubts and suspicions may linger in the heart, with no cure, until the person finally leaves Islaam entirely or continues to practice Islaam while, in fact, in his heart he does not have the true faith. The greatest cure for these doubts is seeking knowledge. It is through sound knowledge of the Qur�aan and the Sunnah that most of these doubts will be removed.

3- ACCEPTANCE (or al-qabool):

If a person has knowledge of and certainty in the shahaadah, this must be followed by acceptance, with the tongue and heart, of whatever that shahaadah implies. Whoever refuses to accept the shahaadah and its implications, even if he knows that it is true and certain about its truth, then he is a disbeliever. This refusal to accept is sometimes due to pride, envy or other reasons.

In any case, the shahaadah is not a true shahaadah without its unconditional acceptance. The scholars all talk about this condition as a general condition in the way that I have just stated. However, there is also a more detailed aspect that we must all be aware of. The believer accepts whatever the implications of the shahaadah are. This also means that he believes in whatever is stated in the Qur�aan or stated by the Prophet (peace be upon him), without any right to choose what he wants to believe and what he wants to reject. Allaah says in the Qur�aan,

"Do you believe in part of the book and reject part of it? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom" (al-Baqarah: 85).

This is one aspect that the Muslims must be aware of. Although it is not the same as the complete refusal to accept the truth, by rejecting part of the truth that has come from Allaah, one also negates his testimony of faith. Unfortunately, many Muslims are doing this nowadays in various ways. Although not all of these forms may necessarily be considered apostasy,they are still very dangerous. For example, if they do not like what is stated in a verse in the Qur�aan, they simply reinterpret the verse according to their liking. If they do not like what is stated in a hadeeth, they simply state that the hadeeth must not be authentic although they are not scholars in that area. This kind of behavior is the antithesis of the behavior of the true Muslims. Whatever comes from Allaah and His Messenger (peace be upon him), the true Muslim believes in as the truth. This goes hand in hand with their testimony of faith.

4- SUBMISSION and COMPLIANCE (or al-inqiyad):

This implies the actual physical enactment with our deeds of our shahaadah. In fact, this is one of the main meanings of the word Islaam itself, "the submission to the will and commands of Allaah." This is what Allaah commands in the Qur�aan,

"Turn unto Him repentant, and surrender unto Him" (al-Zumar: 54).

Allaah has praised those who submit to His command by their actions. Allaah says,

"Who is better in religion than he who surrenders his purpose to Allaah while doing good" (al-Nisa: 125).

Actually, Allaah has clearly made it a condition of faith that one submits to the command of Allaah and His messenger. Allaah says,

"But nay, by your Lord, they will not truly believe until they make you [the Messenger of Allaah] judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of which you decide, and submit with full submission" (al-Nisa: 65)

Unfortunately, there are many that claim that there is no relationship between faith and deeds. You can even hear one Muslim saying about another, "That is the best Muslim I have ever met," yet the other person performs scarcely any of the deeds of Islaam whatsoever. This incorrect understanding of faith has spread throughout the Muslim world. Indeed, our shahaadah or testimony of faith must be implemented or realized in our hearts, tongues and actions. In our hearts, we must have love for Allaah, fear Allaah and hope in Him. With our tongues we must testify to the shahaadah. And with our actions, we must implement what the testimony of faith requires from us.

Anyone who claims to be a Muslim and yet does no deeds, either does not understand Islaam whatsoever or is bearing testimony against himself that his testimony of faith is not a true and correct testimony of faith. This does not mean that the true believer never commits a sin. Indeed, true believers do commit sins, but as long as they recognize that what they did is not correct and it is inconsistent with their obligation of submitting to Allaah, then they have not violated the soundness of their testimony or shahaadah. But do not forget they are still sinners. And what is the minimum of submission that is required from a person beyond whom there can be no claim to faith? For those scholars who say that the abandonment of prayers is infidelity, it is the five daily prayers. Whoever does not perform, at least, the five daily prayers have gone beyond the limit that is acceptable for lack of deeds. Allaah knows best.

5-TRUTHFULNESS (or as-sidq), as opposed to hypocrisy and dishonesty:

This means that when we say the shahaadah, we are saying it honestly. We actually mean it. We are not lying when it comes to our testimony of faith. The Prophet (peace be upon his) said, "No one bears testimony to there being no one worth of worship save Allaah, sincerely from his heart, except that Allaah makes the Hell-fire forbidden for him." (Recorded by al-Bukharee and Muslim.)

We are all familiar with those who say the testimony of faith yet they are not saying it honestly. They do not believe in it but they are simply saying it in order to protect themselves or to get some gain from doing so; these are the hypocrites. Allaah has described them in the opening of the Qur�aan with the following words,

"And of mankind are some who say, 'We believe in Allaah and the Last Day,' when they believe not. They think to beguile Allaah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves, but they perceive not. In their hearts is a disease, and Allaah increases their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie" (al-Baqarah: 8-10).

Obviously, the shahaadah of those who become Muslims simply to benefit from being Muslim and not because they believe in Islaam will be rejected by Allaah in the Hereafter. They will face a painful punishment due to their lying.

6- SINCERITY (or al-ikhlaas):

That is, when we make the shahaadah, we must do so solely for the sake of Allaah. We must not do it for any other reason. And we must not do it for anyone else's sake. In this manner, the meaning of sincerity is opposite of Shirk or ascribing partners with Allaah. We became and remain Muslims solely for Allaah's sake. Allaah says in the Qur�aan,

"Worship Allaah, making religion pure for him" (al-Zumar: 2).

And Allaah also says,

"And they are ordained not else than to serve Allaah, keeping religion pure for Him, as men by nature upright and to establish worship and to pay the poor-due. That is true religion" (al-Bayyinah: 5).

And the Prophet (peace be upon him) added, "Allaah has forbidden for the Hell-fire anyone who says, 'There is no one worthy of worship except Allaah,' and say so desiring the face [and pleasure] of Allaah." (Recorded by Muslim).

This is something that we should all think about, especially those of us who grew up in Muslim families and were born Muslim. We should make it very clear to ourselves that we are Muslims only for the sake of Allaah. We are not Muslims for the sake of our parents, friends, family or community. It must be clear in our minds that we are Muslims for the sake of Allaah first, last and only. One of the signs that we are Muslims for the sake of Allaah is that we do whatever Allaah asks of us, regardless of what anybody else desires or wants from us. That is, in the same way that we are Muslims solely for the sake of Allaah, all of our actions are done for the sake of Allaah.

However, sometimes one begins to wonder whether some people meet this condition. Some people from the Muslim world practice Islaam to the extent that it is pleasing to their families. If there is anything in Islaam that their families do not like- although their families are Muslim and therefore they actually should like all of Islaam- then they do not practice that aspect of Islaam. One common example of that nature is mixing between men and women. Sometimes a brother, here in the U.S., will not mix with women and his wife will remain separate from the men. Yet, when they return to their homes, because this is not pleasing to their families who want to mix between men and women, they easily, simply and happily compromise their religion for the sake of their parents. These people must sincerely ask themselves why they are Muslims. Are they Muslims for the sake of their parents and therefore whatever their parents like they will do and whatever their parents do not like they won't do? Or are they Muslims for the sake of Allaah and therefore whatever Allaah dislikes they will not do and whatever Allaah is pleased with they do?

7- LOVE (or al-mahabbah):

That is, the believer loves this shahaadah, he loves in accordance with the shahaadah, he loves the implications and requirements of the shahaadah and he loves those who act and strive for the sake of this shahaadah. This is a necessary condition of the shahaadah. If a person makes the shahaadah but does not love the shahaadah and what it stands for, then, in fact, his faith is not complete. It is not the faith of a true believer. And if he loves something more that this shahaadah or if he loves something more than Allaah, then he has negated his shahaadah. The true believer, the one meeting the conditions of the shahaadah puts no one whatsoever as an equal to Allaah in his love. Allaah says in the Qur�aan,

"Yet of mankind are some who take unto themselves (objects of worship which they set as) rivals to Allaah,loving them with a love like (that which is due to) Allaah only. However, those who believe are stauncher in their love of Allaah" (al-Baqarah: 165).

And elsewhere Allaah says:

"Say: If your fathers, or your sons, or your brethren, or your wives, or your tribe, or the wealth you have acquired, or merchandise for which you fear that there will be no sale, or dwellings you desire are dearer to you than Allaah and His Messenger and striving in His way: then wait till Allaah brings His command to pass. Allaah guides not wrongdoing folk" (al-Tauba: 24).

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "Whoever has three characteristics has tasted the sweetness of faith. [The first of these] is that he loves Allaah and His Messenger more than he loves anyone else..." (Recorded by al-Bukharee and Muslim.).

This is one of the most important aspects of Islaam yet, for some reason, it is missing from the lives of many Muslims. They act in Islaam as if Islaam were a chore instead of doing things out of the love of Allaah. When Allaah orders us to do something, like bear witness to the faith, we should realize that that thing is pleasing to Allaah and, therefore, out of our love for Allaah, we should be very pleased to do the acts that are pleasing to Allaah. But, as I said, this feeling is missing from many, many Muslims today.

8: DENYING EVERY OTHER OBJECT OF WORSHIP:

Although that is clear in the words of the testimony of faith, it does not seem clear to everyone who makes that testimony. Therefore, I am mentioning it explicitly here. In Surah al-Baqarah, Allaah clearly reminds us of this important aspect of the shahaadah, the shahaadah is not merely an affirmation but it is both an affirmation and a negation. Allaah states,

"And he who rejects false deities and believes in Allaah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break" (al-Baqarah: 256).

Perhaps the Prophet (peace be upon him) made this point even clearer when he said,"Whoever says there is no one worthy of worship except Allaah and denies whatever is worshipped besides Allaah, then his wealth and blood are protected and his accounting will be with Allaah." (Recorded by Muslim).

Although this condition should be obvious to everyone who says the words of shahaadah, you can still find Muslims who say the shahaadah and then make acts of worship for beings or things other than Allaah. You will find them going to the graveyards and worshipping those in the graves. They will perform acts of worship, not for the sake of Allaah, but for the sake of the dead "saints" in the grave. What kind of shahaadah have these people made? Do you really think that their shahaadah will mean anything on the Day of Judgement as long as they believe that acts of worship may be done for other than Allaah?


9- ADHEREING to the shahaadah until one dies:

This is must if the shahaadah is to mean anything for you in the Hereafter. You cannot rest on your laurels of what you may have done in the past. No, indeed, the shahaadah must be your banner until your death. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, " A man spends a long time doing the deeds of the people of Paradise and then he ends his deeds with the deeds of the people of the Hell-fire. And a man spends a long time doing the deeds of the people of the Hell-fire and then he ends his deeds with the deeds of the people of Paradise." (Recorded by Muslim)

In another hadeeth, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "By the One beside whom there is no other God, one of you does the actions of Paradise until there is just a handspan between him and Paradise and then the book [preordainment] overtakes him and he does the actions of the people of Hell and he enters into it" (Recorded by al-Bukharee and Muslim.)

And Allaah says in the Qur�aan,

"O believers, observe your duty to Allaah with right observance, and die not save as Muslims [surrendering yourselves to Allaah]" (al-Imran: 102).

Dear brothers and sisters, these are the conditions of the shahaadah. These are the aspects of the shahaadah that each and every one of us should look to in himself and ask himself, "Is my shahaadah meeting those requirements? Am I saying it sincerely, honestly and out of love for Allaah? Am I saying it based on what it really means? Am I denying all other false objects of worship?"

These questions we should ask ourselves now before we meet Allaah. Allaah willing, we shall ask ourselves these questions now and we shall find that we have all the right answers for them. Or, if we find we have some deficiency, we shall work to remove that deficiency. Such that, by Allaah's mercy, in the Hereafter, our shahaadah will be the key to Paradise for us and the gates of Paradise will swing wide open for us and we will be able to live forever in the bounties of Paradise, with Allaah being pleased with us.

Again, it is not simply a matter of knowing these conditions. Indeed, one can meet many Muslims who have these conditions memorized, yet when one looks to their deeds and behavior, one can see that these conditions have no effect on them. This means, in fact, no matter how well he knows and can rattle off these conditions, he, in fact, is not fulfilling them. In the Hereafter, his knowledge of these conditions will be of no avail to him. Indeed, his knowledge will be a proof against him, as he clearly knows what the conditions are that he must satisfy yet he has shown that he is not willing to satisfy them in his life.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 8:34am
Brother I am aware of these conditions but the discussion here
is about those of the non-Muslim. I assume that those who are
not Muslim who, do not convert to Islam (although they may
believe in the prophet Muhammad) they will not be admitted
into paradise correct? No need for a long response just a
simple yes or no?

BTW I would suggest all those here to see an extension of my
post here in the Interfaith forum under the subject titled:
"Marriages with the People of the Book"


Posted By: human
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 1:57pm

I am overwhelmed by the responses to this thread. Thanks to all of you who have expressed their own opinions or those expressed by scholars (it would be nice if you state the source).

As far as I can see there two schools of thought here:

1. Those who are for a strict interpretation of Quoran and Sunnah. You have to believe in one-ness of Allah and that Muhammed was his last messenger. Otherwise you are bound for hell.

2. Those who are more acommodative and state that if you believe in oneness of Allah and do good deeds in your life then you are safe.

What about people belonging to Hindu and Buddhist and other religions who constitute almost 50% of the population. I can assure there are good people and bad people in every religion and that there are extra-ordinarily good Hindu people and yet believe in a different version of divinity. Are they bound for hell as well, even though they have made a difference in the lives of millions of people.

Regards,

Human



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 4:26pm

Human,

Brother/Sister that is a more philosophical approach in this
matter.

I myself am not at the liberty of saying that those who are non-
Muslim and not of the monotheistic tradition that they are
doomed for hell because there are conditions upon why a
person is not of the Muslim faith.

Human please read carefully of my examples:

Conditions on why a Buddhist/Hiundu is not a Muslim:

1) The family or household grew up in an area which is not
populated by Muslims.

2) They grew up in an area populated by Muslims but because
of bad relationship (I stretch this for the imagination but let us
view the Buddhist/Hindu in their shoes this time and assume
that the negative relationship with Muslims was due to those
Muslims who are extremist in that region).

3) The knowledge of Islam was not adequate. Depending upon
who is interpreting the knowledge obtained on Islam may not
have been adequate enough for a person to understand th
beauty of Islam.

4) They choose not to convert to Islam because of a
misconception.

5) They choose not to convert to Islam because they do not
believe in a single (or any deity for that matter).

6) They choose not to believe in Islam because of personal
reasions

7) They may find the interpretation of God limited due to cultural
reasons.

There are many more reasons I can note but these tend to
stand out as the basic reasons why other of different faiths may
not believe in the Islamic creed. I personally believe that the
mercy of God is contigent upon the specific reasons and the life
lead by these individuals, hence we as Muslims are really are
not at the liberty to truly judge. As I have noted above some of
the reasons why a hindu or Buddhist may not be Muslim
because maybe in their lives they had a bad experience with a
Muslim who may have condemned them to Hell. I find this to be
a logical and believable reason because I too, was condemn
by another Muslim to hell because I did not choose a fiqh or a
sect in Islam LOL.

Human you will find Muslims here who quote Qur'an and
Hadith to prove valid points but in such a theological matter
those points may seem (in the non-Muslims eyes) to go against God's goodness
and his justice. But you also have to understand that in the
Muslims eyes this is how the universe was made.

It is proven that those who are pagan are condemn in Islam,
plain and simple. Many Muslims condemn Hindus because
many believe Hindus worship various idols. I havepersonally
spoke with Hindu priest who claim that they worship One God,
and that this God Brahman, has many forms. This, is perhaps an ancient and yet primitive attempt to understand God and his Oneness I am not sure this is only an observation.

For those who are Buddhist I've spoke to some (not of the
orthodox sect) who believe God was the Buddha. I've also rad
some of their writings which they too have a trinitarian principle
similar to Christianity on the essence of the Buddha. Of course
one of the sayings of the Buddha was that the belief in a deity
was also the cause of suffering so I'm not sure if these
spiritualist among the Buddhist are held as an legitimate sect.

However, there are various interpretations of the divine and
how mankind struggles to understand mankind. I can only
stretch Islamic pluralism so much. Now in the Qur'an it says
"Those who desire another religion other than Al-Islam, it will
not be accepted of them" but again, as I mentioned before the
reasons why a person would not choose Islam is contigent
upon their reasons. I cannot judge another who is not of my faith.

I firmly believe that on the Day of Judgement God being the wise and knower of all things will reveal the questions which humans have had about life, religion etc. I believe all these things will be made known to us then. I also believe that with every questionable excuse God will have an answer for, for he is the wise and the infinite intellect!

Islam as you already know is the Submission to the will of God and this is an infinite and universal order among life forms. The religious side of it can be interpreted by mankind and because of such an interpretation by man there is a sense of interpreting some fallibility because we individuals may express how "we" understand Islam, thus the extremist in our world may express how Islam functions according to their idea. This in itself would drive anyone away from any religion. This is not an excuse however. But who knows save God.

BTW brother MOCKBA thank you for your addition to my last post, but I was using that brief example as, well, an example. I just wanted to point out that initally when the prophet went to Medina that on condition on leading the people there the Jews had to recognize him as a prophet. But in between that the prophet never asked the Jews to convert from Judaism. That was my point.



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 10:22pm

Bismillah

Brother Israfil,

In the case of Islam - it is simple... you refer to the Quran. Most of the people who returned to Allah voluntarily and without prior education, "brainwashing", terrorist threat or upbringing in a Muslim environment are people who have opened the Book Of Allah and read it with sincere intention of seeking the Truth, gaining Knowledge and discovering Faith. It is the Message that has a central importance here...

With your kind of philosophising you are opening the door for people to refute Islam provided they have a "valid" reason for doing so and believe they will be rescued when they die. And it is the kind of reasoning that does not return to the Quranic verses for verification and support. When referring to matters clearly pointed out in the Quran by Allah, there isn't any need to wait until the Judgement day for their confirmation... isn't Quran confirmation enough? 

Let me remind you of the story about the Messenger's beloved uncle Abu Talib, who despite having protected the Prophet (peace be upon him) and having been courteous to the Muslims did not accept Islam even though other members of his family had done so. The Prophet was grieved and continued praying for him and ask Allah to forgive him untill Allah commanded him not to.  

 



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: human
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Human,

Brother/Sister that is a more philosophical approach in this
matter.

It is a brother,

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

I myself am not at the liberty of saying that those who are non-
Muslim and not of the monotheistic tradition that they are
doomed for hell because there are conditions upon why a
person is not of the Muslim faith.

That's what is so endearing about your posts, brother Israfil. The humility is essential while we are trying to reach out to each other. I am not asking the questions that I am asking, because I seek to point out the weaknesses of Qur'an. My intention is to develop an understanding of Islam and its followers by engaging in a meaningful conversation. My intention is not to dissuade or pursuade anyone about the superiority of any faith either.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Human you will find Muslims here who quote Qur'an and
Hadith to prove valid points but in such a theological matter
those points may seem (in the non-Muslims eyes) to go against God's goodness and his justice. But you also have to understand that in the Muslims eyes this is how the universe was made.

So there is a dichotomy here. Since Qur'an can't possibly be wrong, it is potentially its interpretation that has gone wrong somewhere. It could be due to poor translation from Arabic to other languages. Or it could be that the language used at the time of Qur'an writing was different from the one in use today.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:


It is proven that those who are pagan are condemn in Islam,
plain and simple. Many Muslims condemn Hindus because
many believe Hindus worship various idols. I havepersonally
spoke with Hindu priest who claim that they worship One God,
and that this God Brahman, has many forms. This, is perhaps an ancient and yet primitive attempt to understand God and his Oneness I am not sure this is only an observation.

In the final analysis, we all need symbols to conceptualize something abstract as God. Among Hindus, it is the idols, in Christians it is the trinity and the cross, in Islam it is the Kaba, Hajj and other earthly matters. I have noticed Muslims in India praying to the saints and pirs. Again, my intention is not to show any faith in poor light, but to demonstrate the power of symbols over people's faith.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:


However, there are various interpretations of the divine and
how mankind struggles to understand mankind. I can only
stretch Islamic pluralism so much. Now in the Qur'an it says
"Those who desire another religion other than Al-Islam, it will
not be accepted of them" but again, as I mentioned before the
reasons why a person would not choose Islam is contigent
upon their reasons. I cannot judge another who is not of my faith.

I think that's fair. We can be strong in our faith, while being tolerant of others'. If we choose to follow the basic humanity expressed in all the religions, there is little need for conflict.

Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

With your kind of philosophising you are opening the door for people to refute Islam provided they have a "valid" reason for doing so and believe they will be rescued when they die. And it is the kind of reasoning that does not return to the Quranic verses for verification and support. When referring to matters clearly pointed out in the Quran by Allah, there isn't any need to wait until the Judgement day for their confirmation... isn't Quran confirmation enough? 

You are dodging my question: here is a person of extra-ordinary character. He has made a difference in the lives millions of people by his actions (such people do exist). He has always lived in virtue, never intentionally hurting a soul. However, he is a Hindu, and does not believe that Muhammad was the final prophet. Is he condemned to hell?

Regards,

Human



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 09 September 2005 at 12:30am

Bismillah

Originally posted by human human wrote:

In the final analysis, we all need symbols to conceptualize something abstract as God. Among Hindus, it is the idols, in Christians it is the trinity and the cross, in Islam it is the Kaba, Hajj and other earthly matters. I have noticed Muslims in India praying to the saints and pirs. Again, my intention is not to show any faith in poor light, but to demonstrate the power of symbols over people's faith.

In Islam we do not conceptualise God and do not consider Him abstract unlike what you suggest. It is quite common among Hindus to point at the Black Stone of Kaaba as "Muslim god" (Allah forbid!) only in attempt to interrelate it with their worshipping of lifeless stony idols. Allah is beyond human comprehension, He has no beginning and He has no end. What we know of Allah's nature is revealed through His attributes and does not require any symbolic representation either through a stone, a crescent or a picture on a wall. Muslims in India as Muslims in many other places worship many things other than Allah due to their ignorance... ignorance of the Quran and Prophetic teachings. Let's acknowledge that the reference should always be made to the Quran and not just neighbour with a long and shaggy beard.    

Originally posted by human human wrote:

You are dodging my question: here is a person of extra-ordinary character. He has made a difference in the lives millions of people by his actions (such people do exist). He has always lived in virtue, never intentionally hurting a soul. However, he is a Hindu, and does not believe that Muhammad was the final prophet. Is he condemned to hell?

You may have skipped detailed posts provided earlier in this thread with self-explanatory verses of the Quran. The goal of Islam is not goodness as per se, but goodness which is the result of obedinece to Allah and His Commands... the true declaration of faith. A person who has not heard of Islam having been born in remote tribe located deep inside thick rainforest of Amazonia may not be doomed to Hell and will be judged in the way that Allah will consider best.

People who have heard of the call to worship one God as instructed by God's Final Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) have been warned of the approaching Judgement.



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: human
Date Posted: 09 September 2005 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

In Islam we do not conceptualise God and do not consider Him abstract unlike what you suggest. It is quite common among Hindus to point at the Black Stone of Kaaba as "Muslim god" (Allah forbid!) only in attempt to interrelate it with their worshipping of lifeless stony idols. Allah is beyond human comprehension, He has no beginning and He has no end. What we know of Allah's nature is revealed through His attributes and does not require any symbolic representation either through a stone, a crescent or a picture on a wall. Muslims in India as Muslims in many other places worship many things other than Allah due to their ignorance... ignorance of the Quran and Prophetic teachings. Let's acknowledge that the reference should always be made to the Quran and not just neighbour with a long and shaggy beard.    

And yet, you say that the same God is capable of anger, vengefulness, happiness, mercy etc, all of which are human characteristics. And yet, you say that God NEEDS his subjects to pray to him and praise him, and while praying aim the prayers towards Mecca. There is a clear quid pro quo when you say you have to do such and such or else hellfire. Is this not a human attribute?

Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

You may have skipped detailed posts provided earlier in this thread with self-explanatory verses of the Quran. The goal of Islam is not goodness as per se, but goodness which is the result of obedinece to Allah and His Commands... the true declaration of faith. A person who has not heard of Islam having been born in remote tribe located deep inside thick rainforest of Amazonia may not be doomed to Hell and will be judged in the way that Allah will consider best.

People who have heard of the call to worship one God as instructed by God's Final Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) have been warned of the approaching Judgement.

That's fine as far as your belief is concerned. But to me, there are some universal goods (for the sake of goodness), irrespective of any faith or religion. These have to come first if we are to live in harmony. These goods are articulated in Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If our faith in God somehow overrides these human rights, we are all in major trouble.

Regards,

Human



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 09 September 2005 at 11:41pm

Brother MOCKBA you said:

>>>With your kind of philosophising you are opening the door for people to refute Islam provided they have a "valid" reason for doing so and believe they will be rescued when they die.<<<

Brother MOCKBA you totally missed my point when I say that those who reject Islam is contigent upon their experience, but not once in my post did I say that they will be saved. I mentioned to human that I am not at the liberty of judging another non-Muslim non-Abrahamic follower. When the times comes for Allah to take the soul I do not know what will happen to that soul. I can only count for my own soul. I leave whatever decisions made to Allah alone, the merciful, the supreme.

As you mentioned in your last post brother that there are many Muslims who worship many things out ignorance, and out of such ignorance I note that why those who have heard the message of Islam but have not heed the call may too be out of ignorance. I presume to not know those reasons. My position is that Islam will save the non-Muslim non-Abrahamic follower. My position is that I don't know and therefore I cannot judge. Even if the Qur'an clearly states clearly of its laws I as a human and follower of God cannot judge in spite of this.

I believe as a Muslim there is hope for all of humanity because God is merciful, and even those who are heart hearted of Allah I believe there is hope for them to. My apologies if I'm not strict and quick to condemn but I've received a lot of that from my own brethren. I'd like to take a more rational approach to things on this matter.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 10 September 2005 at 3:24am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

My position is that I don't know and therefore I cannot judge. Even if the Qur'an clearly states clearly of its laws I as a human and follower of God cannot judge in spite of this.

As a muslim you are obliged to judge by the Quran and Sunnah and if your personel beliefs are not according to these your views are not Islamic and are not based on any evidence.

I believe as a Muslim there is hope for all of humanity because God is merciful, and even those who are heart hearted of Allah I believe there is hope for them to. My apologies if I'm not strict and quick to condemn but I've received a lot of that from my own brethren. I'd like to take a more rational approach to things on this matter.

Allah is merciful but once his decree has come who is there to hold it of. If he punishes those who are not muslim by sending them to hell enternaly does that mean he is not mercifull?

What you are advocating is chirstian understanding of love and mercy where you are forgiven all your sins no matter what you do and we will all enter heaven.

Allah is just and he has set up a balance, who ever has an atoms weight of good will see it and who ever has atoms weight of evil will see it your understanding ignores Allahs justice, non muslims are not free from sin there is a reason why allah has not guided certain people he hasnt just left us alone.

He has 99 atributes not just one, mercy

Al-Hakam
  • The Judge, He is the Ruler and His judgment is His Word
Al-^Adl
  • The Just, The One who is entitled to do what He does.
Al-^Aliyy
  • The Most High, The Sublime, The One who is clear from the attributes of the creatures.
Al-Haqq
  • The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.
On what basis will non muslims be sent to heaven, he is al Haqq there beliefs are lies and not truth he will not accept it from them as he has said in the Quran.

Refusing to accept allahs truth is a great sin and if you have not heard his message than you are among those who allah will test on the day of judgment there are no other exceptions.



-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 10 September 2005 at 4:21am

Bismillah

Brother Rami, thank you for clarifying the point.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

I believe as a Muslim there is hope for all of humanity because God is merciful, and even those who are heart hearted of Allah I believe there is hope for them to. My apologies if I'm not strict and quick to condemn but I've received a lot of that from my own brethren. I'd like to take a more rational approach to things on this matter.

Brother Israfil, if you haven't noticed yet, I always remind of the necessity to return to the Quran. 

Now if something is pointed out in the Quran (not concluded by Mockba), in this case it is the fate of the unbelievers, then why do you want to go on believing in something different only because you think is correct? May I ask you, where do you derive your "rational approach" if it is not in line with the Quran? We are not to condemn or judge, but we are to uphold Allah's Command and accept His Word as the ultimate Truth (al-haqq). Why pass by the example of a good person like Abu Talib, the Prophet's uncle... whom he loved? 

"And O ye in sin! Get ye apart this Day!

"Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?-

"And that ye should worship Me, (for that) this was the Straight Way?

"But he did lead astray a great multitude of you. Did ye not, then, understand?

"This is the Hell of which ye were (repeatedly) warned! 

"Embrace ye the (fire) this Day, for that ye (persistently) rejected (Truth)." (Quran 36:59-64)

SubhanAllah! It gives me shivers to even think of "rationalising" on the subject... Don't you agree, brother?

Originally posted by human human wrote:

And yet, you say that God NEEDS his subjects to pray to him and praise him, and while praying aim the prayers towards Mecca. There is a clear quid pro quo when you say you have to do such and such or else hellfire. Is this not a human attribute?

God's anger, vengefulness and mercy are incomparable to the characteristics that humans posess. That is why these are attributes of Allah, (asma-ul-husna) the Best of the Names that belong solely to Allah and noone else. These attributes are revealed to us by Allah and are not the result of what "we say" about Him. These very attributes make it crystal clear that Allah is free from any need whatsoever, and it has been widely discussed in this forum.

Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is! (Quran 36:82) 

And direction towards Mecca does not mean directing oneself towards an object of worship... it is a mere direction reflecting discipline and unity of Allah's believers.

To Allah belong the east and the west: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing. (Quran 2:115)



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 10 September 2005 at 9:37am

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:


As a muslim you are obliged to judge by the Quran and Sunnah and if your personel beliefs are not according to these your views are not Islamic and are not based on any evidence.

What Rami mention is so very true. 

My family are all non-Muslims, and I'm really sadden for them, but hoping that they embrace Islam prior to death.  Our Prophet (pbuh) was also unhappy that many from his family did not embrace Islam.  But, we do our non-Muslim family, friends, and guests a tremendous disservice by leading them to believe that need not accept Islam in order to be saved.

The religion of Islam is like the ship of Nooh: whoever boards it will be saved and whoever stays behind will be drowned. Let us not mislead anyone into believing they can seek higher ground.



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 10 September 2005 at 10:26am

Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh,

The hardest exam i have been facing in my life is telling Islam to my parents who are oppose to Islam,it is so hard to calling them because they are older than me and i have raised up in their hands...i don't know what to do,i feel so weak;May Allah insh'Allah help to the muslims who are living in non-muslim area...i need to cry...brother Abuaisha may i use your shoulders,don't worry i'll insh'allah buy you an new t-shirt...



Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 10 September 2005 at 2:24pm

Assalamu alaikum,

Perhaps part of the trial of this life is not being able to control some things.  Knowing one's family members will not accept Islam is a hard pill to swallow.  All we can do is deliver the message to them and show them by example how to live as a Muslim.  If they do not accept, we must learn to trust in Allah and accept His judgement over all things.

Work hard on inner peace.  Those who are blessed with Allah's sakinah (inner peace) can put all their trust in Him and accept all things as they unfold.  This will be like a shield of pure joy to any Muslim who can accomplish it.  This inner peace, this pure joy, buffers the many trials of this life.  Learn to accept Allah's will, learn to put all your trust in Allah, and His sakinah will shield your heart.

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 10 September 2005 at 9:41pm

Bismillah

Wa'alaikumu Salaam!

Originally posted by Ummziba Ummziba wrote:

All we can do is deliver the message to them and show them by example how to live as a Muslim.

Indeed, Sister Ummziba, there may not be a better way of explaining Islam than having it manifested through our deeds.

It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance. (Quran 28:56)



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 September 2005 at 3:22pm

>>>>What you are advocating is chirstian understanding of love and mercy where you are forgiven all your sins no matter what you do and we will all enter heaven.<<<<

What an interesting analysis from my words brother Rami! I'm so glad of all things of all sayings you drew from my comments that they were Christian! that is laughable. There is salvation for humanity as Allah has mentioned that Muhammad (S.A.W.S) was sent as a mercy to mankind. My point here was that in many countries where extremism is existent and ongoing its impossible for people to receive the "correct message" as it relates to Islam. I am not saying one who with intention acts ignorant of the teachings of Islam will be saved but one who is not aware of its core principles I believe is not held accountable. But this is not saying that one should avoid following Islamic guidance because of such.

Indeed Allah guides whom he wills but its our duty to at least show the mercy of such guidence through righteous interpretation.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 11 September 2005 at 7:48pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

You seemed to be saying that there is hope for those who do not follow islam and follow another religion simply becouse allah is mercifull. Your words are not clear to others and my self becouse from what you have said above i see nothing wrong with it and this is exactly what i and others have been saying.

If that is the case there is no need fo further discussion we seem to be in agreement.




-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.



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