One of the things that has bothered me here (and abroad) is that our community is segregated. Not in the sense of who goes where i the mosque or how one should conduct themselves in regards to approaching another sex. That is not my point. My point is that in many cases here as I've seen that we propagate the seperation of men in women in terms of knowledge. Now, there are many arguments for such a seperation but how many men can say they have knowledge of what Muslimah's are in the world, I mean the knowledge of the worth of women or men?

It's probably me and my "western" ideas but I tend to think our lack of understanding of the sexes is what leads to our downfall as people sometimes.

Well anyway I'm done babbling wont be here much longer

I think that is called

C  U  L  T  U  R  E

Lameese

Israfil,

Is there ever a time when you want to hear the truth?

Israfil wrote: Since it is culture to which culture are you referring?

Re-read your question. How could you not know to whom's culture I was refering?

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Good arguments folks ... I enjoyed the thread so far  

I had this angry attitude towards men some years ago, and most of it had to do with lack of and/or wrong knowledge about them. It was not culture, or exposure. I think most of it had to do with  observations and presumptions which I had some how come to over simplify and genralize.

I guess the same over simplification can be true the other way round, ie of men doing it for women.

In Islamic culture and deen it is not correct (or wisdom) to take interest in opposite gender to the level of an individual , however there is no clause for not studying the opposite gender in order to understand them. This infact benfits both men and women to treat their spouses better, and raise their kids.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

I think it is about a resonable balance. The world is complex. And there needs to limitiations but the reality is that genders will mix especially at work.  The goal of hijab is to have modesty so women can be hassle free. If men and women cannot even  have a dialogue then how can women be seen as intelligent people? Otherwise we areseen as 'women' and something 'different'.

I remember having long discussions about this with a dear friend. Asking him about the gender 'seperation' that I could not relate to-I have no problem with not sleeping with the men I know. And he said that many people just go the wrong way with it, they cannot control themselves. And the rules are there to guide the majority of people.

It does make sense. Ireally do not want anyone touching my hands. Skaing hands is cultural yes. But there is something awkward about it. Plus there is a boundary issue. I want no strange man to touch me. Never did, even before I became a Moslem. That may be just a personal thing. Having traveled to  a predominantly Moslem culture it was nice to have my boundaries respected there. No touching by people I do not know. Friendly and cordial yet.. but no invasion of space.

The wife in the hospital. Frankly it can be awkward if you are not used to having other men around you. Particularly in a hosptial one is vulnerable not just physically but emotionally.

Women in many facets of their lives deal with some men who use subtle ways of intimidations upon them. Of course not all men, but of course there are a few bad eggs in every basket.

Sister Hafya. why would women need to speak to men to be seen as being intelligent?

Inteligance does not come from a women speaking to a man. Thats called inferiority complex.

An intelligent women is women who knows that intelignece is not related to speaking to men.

This is what the kaffirs in the west have brain washed the women and even teh men. That a intellgent and strong women is one who is rough and tough like a man and wont stand for segragation. Two things come from this. They are saying your a women and not like a man who is strong and tough so you are inferior. and they wanty women there for their lusts so they drive them to think mixing in worksplace is how they will achieve streanth and inteligence.

Its quite intersting  what you said though. Just goes to show how much work is needed to undo their brain washing of the their population masses.

And we can do this quite eaisly.  And save the kaffirs    form the brain washing of their polititions and lifesyle gurus.

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Sister Hafya. why would women need to speak to men to be seen as being intelligent?

They don't but there are situations that arise where it may happen.

I don't need to speak to men.. but for example we are talking on this web site..

No one has to be 'like men' that is no the point. The point is that often we cross in life. For example when I was the only child at home and outside chores needed to done i did them. For whatever  reason my father could not. I am not trying to 'be like' men but doing a basic function or skill. I suppose it was a 'man's job to mow the lawn or shovel the snow but if I had not done so it would not have happened.

Just like men can learn basic cooking and cleaning skills. These are just skills. That does not make them 'women' but practical and useful in times of need.

I have no issues with general roles. No problem But it does disturb me if the angle of resoning is "I am not capable solely because I am a woman".

I remember  a long time ago taking a class on basic auto mechanics 101 for women (taught by a woman). This is not to say I need to be a mechanic but:

a. What if I get stuck somewhere and cannot get help, I can help myself. Let's say I was on the road with my kids (I don't have kids) and car dies and my phone dies, I'll need to completely rely upon a strange man who comes along.

b. I too can learn simple skills. How to check gas, oil etc. They are not about being a 'man' but learning skills.

I think to promote helplessness is not good in anyone. Yes we can and do need help but not to the point where it is detriment to my health and safety. Both men and women ARE strong. To be able to care for myself makes me more equipped to help our spouses, help other people and raise healthy children.

Brother123 wrote: Inteligance does not come from a women speaking to a man. Thats called inferiority complex.

Inferioirity complex to the man who has a problem with it. Inferiority complex that is part of HIS problem.  And the Prophets wives taught Islam to men and women. You are a little hypocritical.

Lameese

The Prophets wives fought beside him too.....did you forget that? That they owned a buisness? Forget that too? The also taught the people (men and women) about Islam.........again did you forget?

He also mended his own clothes rather then ask his wives to do it, why? Because he said he was able to do this too. Forget that too?

Maybe you should read the Qur'an sometime!

Lameese