Creation of solar system and Quran.
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Topic: Creation of solar system and Quran.
Posted By: rememberallah
Subject: Creation of solar system and Quran.
Date Posted: 22 November 2010 at 5:59am
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star formation-sun's birth, earth's birth. "despite the fact that the universe is so uniform and homogeneous on a large scale, it contains local irregularities such as stars {planets} and galaxies, these are thought to have developed from small differences in density of early universe from one region to another. what was the origin of these density fluctuations ???" - pg128 brief history of time by Stephen Hawking. Science has not been able to find the reasons for these density fluctuations. the local irregularities like galaxies {galaxy is a collection of billions of stars and there are billions of galaxies} stars and planets. Our sun is just one star of about 100,000 million stars of our Milky Way galaxy and has 8 planets, our earth being the third from sun. Scientists have found that the stars and planets are formed in nebulae, nebulae is a Latin word meaning cloud or mist, but actually there is no cloud or mist but concentration of gas and dust which is often so thick that visible light can't penetrate it. One might think here if visible light can�t penetrate nebulae then how did we study them ??? The answer is that 20th century scientists discovered infrared and radio waves and developed instruments that used these waves to study nebulae as they can pass through them to look deeper in them. After years of research we have discovered that "all stars and planets are born out of gas and dust clouds. The birth is triggered by unknown causes which make the gas and dust start collapsing on itself "-pg37 inside stars by Biman Basu. eg. of nebulae-the great Orion nebula, the Trifid nebula etc. Repeating two things from the 2 quotations I have given above "what was the origin of these density fluctuations" {brief history of time} and "the birth is triggered by unknown causes� {Inside stars} I would want you to read these verses of Quran-{41:11}-"say it is you who deny him??? He turned to the sky and it was as smoke, He said to 'it' {the smoke} and to the 'earth' come ye together willingly or unwillingly !!! they said we come together in willing obedience" here we know the reason of the "density fluctuation" the "unknown cause" that it was The God who commanded the collapse and who could had told this 1400 yrs ago ?? the Quran claims it is from God and we have no choice but to accept its claim. just to be sure I will compare- Quran 41:11 Birth of planets and stars "Say it is you who deny him? He turned to the sky and it was as smoke stars and planets are born out of nebulae or star clouds which are smoky {see pictures} as are made up of gasses and dust He said to it and to the earth come ye together willingly or unwillingly, they said we come together in willing obedience! the gasses and dust particles start collapsing and joining due to unknown causes, This is how our earth and solar system was born with its sun, all its planets and other heavenly bodies like comets asteroids etc. and it was told by a Bedouin of 7th century Arabia!!!! No doubt his claim of Prophethood is correct, he indeed was chosen by the creator of the heavens and the earth to deliver a message. In the same breath it says- {38:87-88}-"of a truth this Quran is no other than an admonition to all created beings and after a time you shall surely know its message in full" Indeed after a time, i.e. now 1400 yrs later, we can understand its message in full, the prophecy is fulfilled, we have understood it. The Quran even goes onto divide the creation of earth into time periods after defining birth of solar system in same breath which totally matches the time periods discovered by the scientists today {this time period thing was my first real discovery that pushed me deeper into studying science in reference to religion} I will discuss it in another topic Inshallah. May Allah guide us all and make not us stubborn against his will. ------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Replies:
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 23 November 2010 at 12:38am
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Quran 41:11 reads "He placed therein firm mountains rising above its surface, and blessed it with abundance, and provided therein its foods in proper measure in four days � alike for all seekers." Where is the connection with the solar system? Please, let's not turn holy books into science books. The ultra-conservative Christians in the US are trying to do the same and I think this is not helpful. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 23 November 2010 at 12:40pm
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my brother matt brown peace be on you, my brother see what i have given as heading "star formation-sun's birth, earth's birth." brother please go again carefully through my post and still if there is a doubt i will God willing comment. ------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 23 November 2010 at 1:56pm
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brother matt i just realised that the image you have on this forum along with your name right now is of a nebulae {or is it of a cracker/firework}, ie a star cloud/star nursery where stars are born, Quran is talking of this stage of solar system formation "He turned to the sky and it was as smoke"
------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 12:41pm
| rememberallah, you said "Quran is talking of this stage of solar system formation "He turned to the sky and it was as smoke". What do you base your statement on? |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 12:45am
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my brother peace be on you the basis of my statement is the word "smoke/smoky" and any picture of a nebulae which is like nothing but rising smoke in appearance. besides that the science says as pointed out in my post that all the gasses and dust particles started to collapse and come together, Quran too says "come ye together" science is not able to answer that why did they start collapsing on each other saying what was the reason for the density fluctuations, such a thing should not had happened. Quran says "willingly or unwillingly" indicating God commanded them to do what should had never happened by their nature. hope this will help. you can see how exact it is. may God guide all. ------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 12:20pm
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rememberallah, I can indeed see "how exact it is". |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 1:06pm
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my brother peace be on you i know what you mean, accidents don't happen on roads when one sees, accidents happen on roads when one doesnt see. Quran is talking about formation of earth in those verses and if you go through science on same topic and keep a look on Quran talking about same topic. one realises that it is miracle of Quran. may Allah guide all. ------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 7:01am
| rememberallah, you have touched on the science behind the formation of the Earth and you have quoted from the Quran where it addressed the Earth. What you haven't shown is the "miracle" relating the two. |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 1:21pm
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my brother the miracle is that 1400 yrs ago no man could have said such a thing and rhat too an illitrate man, such a thing is a miracle.
------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 28 November 2010 at 8:53am
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rememberallah, once again, you are attaching far too much significance to the word "smoke/smokey". You say it refers to the appearance of nebulae. Why? You are attaching far too much significance to the words "come ye together". You say it refers to the gravitational forces at work in the cosmos. Why? What possible causative link could there be that indicates these words mean what you say they mean and not something entirely different and more probable. |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 28 November 2010 at 10:33am
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Doesn't it make more sense to treasure the Quran because it can help find meaning in our lives and give us guidance how to live together in peace? The universe, galaxies, the nature of stars, stellar nebulae, the formation of the solar system was not well understood at the time the Quran was written. I think it's great that are so keen to deepen your knowledge of cosmology and astrophysics, but please keep in mind that the Quran is not a science book. I don't understand the connections you are trying to make and I can't see the correlations and causative links. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 10:08am
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@ schmikbob - my brother the answer to your why is that God created
this universe and God revealed the Quran. i am not attaching
significance, the point is it is talking of same phase...read carefully
"SAME PHASE" of creation of sun/earth and the description is same of
science and Quran. science says "unknown causes" Quran says "We did it" hope this will help. @ matt browne - you said - Doesn't it make more sense to treasure the Quran because it can help find meaning in our lives and give us guidance how to live together in peace? my reply - my brother i agree with you completely all this is crap if we do not receive guidence from Quran, live in peace etc. for i lay more emphasis on that eg. see my posts in Quran and sunnah section on "God's cause" etc. and khilafat in world politics section. if we do not walk on that we are no good at all. i am surprised that you can't see, otherwise people are able to see it instantly. Quran is talking about the phase of earth formation which was forming according to science when solar system was forming, the picture it draws of the creation is strikingly same - nebulae is like smoke only in appearance/composition as it contains gasses {see any pictures of nebulae, google them} gas n matter start collapsing due to unknown reason = we said to it {smoke} and to the earth {matter} come ye together. point is it is talking of "SAME PHASE" may peace be on you. ------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 9:27pm
| Matt, can you help me here. I am apparently unable to communicate with rememberallah. It's either that my communication skills are terrible or he is simply is too invested in this whole scientific Quran stuff to ever see the truth even if it keeps hitting him in the face. I think it might be the latter which is really too bad because this sort of thing just keeps getting in the way of real dialogue. |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 02 December 2010 at 6:02am
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peace be on you schmikbob.
------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 03 December 2010 at 1:47pm
| "Smoke" could refer to a geasous climate as in the constant bombardment of meteroids filled with oxygen, hydrogen or some other elimate that has provided earth with life creating elements. Anyway, I believe that it may be arguably possible some omnipotent deity created the earth, but I also think its arguably possible some non-existent deity didn't either. |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 04 December 2010 at 5:42am
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peace be on you Gibbs i know some people take it to be that as that also happened in earth's creation phase, but it is not that, i dont just say it like that but i have done a whole research on the "skiess/heavens and earth" vs "earth and heavens/skies". these both terms are used in this order and they both convey different things. my conclusion on it is consistent with every "heavens and earth" and "earth and heavens" term in Quran. in background of it i say it refers to formation of solarsystem phase when earth too was forming. as for last part of your comment, i will start a small topic just for you :-} do go through it brother. i will name it "things are created" it will be in science sextion only. peace be on you take care. ------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 05 December 2010 at 9:19am
No, no, it has nothing to do with your communication skills. I'm in a similar situation. Our friend Rememberallah is a very nice and gentle person. This is a very difficult conversation, because mindsets can be extremely different. I know that Rememberallah is convinced about the connection between the Quran and science. Most likely because of the belief that all words are of divine origin. And because God is omniscient He must know more than all scientists of the future. This is a very logical conclusion based on the belief that Allah is the author of the Quran. To me the content of holy books is inspired by God, but this is a liberal interpretation and many Christians don't share my view. I recommend the following book, which can help understand the discussion we are having right now: http://www.amazon.com/Being-Certain-Believing-Right-Youre/dp/031254152X/ - http://www.amazon.com/Being-Certain-Believing-Right-Youre/dp/031254152X/ Just like love or anger, certainty is an emotion. So says neuroscientist Robert Burton, whose engaging new work exposes the involuntary, physiological roots of conviction. He tries to get to the bottom of the curious sensation he calls the feeling of knowing. Throughout his book, Burton makes the compelling argument that certainty is neither a conscious choice nor even a thought process. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
schmikbob wrote:Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 05 December 2010 at 10:35am
How do you explain the fact that Greek scientists made so many scientific discoveries before the Prophet received his messages from Allah? For example Aristarchus (310 BCE - 230 BCE), who was a Greek astronomer and mathematician, born on the island of Samos, in Greece. He presented the first known heliocentric model of the solar system, placing the Sun, not the Earth, at the center of the known universe. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 08 December 2010 at 12:19am
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@ mtt-
brother why dont you do proper reserch, lets see -
Aristarchus believed that the fixed stars and the Sun remain unmoved {truth is stars and sun both move ie revolve and rotate, that the Earth revolves about the Sun on the circumference of a circle {orbit of earth is not circular}, placing the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun - Sun , not the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth - Earth , at the center of the known http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe#heliocentric_model - universe {sun is at centre of solar system but not universe}. Aristarchus concluded that the Sun was between 18 and 20 times farther away than the Moon, The true value of the Sun's distance is actually about 400 times the Moon's.
matt and schmikbob you give so much leaverage to such people who are not compatible with todays science but none to a book that is compatible with science even today?? why?? whats in your heart??
the scientists fail the test of time but the book that claims to be of God stands tall, glory be to God the revealer of kuran. ------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 09 December 2010 at 7:37am
| rememberallah, I find that you do have a basic grasp of science and even the science of the 7th century. However, I also find that you have a delusional understanding of what the Quran says. By the way, "compatible with science" is not some sort of holy grail. Moby Dick is compatible with science but is an account of fiction. Maybe you should move away from that mantra. |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 09 December 2010 at 10:21am
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There seems to be a large movement I wasn't aware of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_and_Science - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an_and_Science and another movement trying to debunk it, for example http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/01/debunking-claim-that-quran-predicts.html - http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/01/debunking-claim-that-quran-predicts.html ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 09 December 2010 at 11:04am
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@schmikbob - my brother beauty lies in the beholders eye, but some beauty beholds every eye, except that persons eye who hates/dislikes/distrust the one who holds that beauty. i trust Quran is word of God, there are too many things that took me out of delusion and into reality......but then what is reality........i look inside and find it written allover my heart. listen to your heart, don't be so overconfident that you know.........i am still willing to consider what Quran asks "have you ever thought if this Quran is really from God or not?" @matt- and continuing from answer to schmikbob, my brother matt what someone claims about Quran is never an issue for me since the time i decided to be my own teacher. there are as many claims as there ate mouths, Quran says "there claim will be put on record and they will be questioned about it". i will be questioned for what i claim, you for what you and anyone else for what he claims. i really don't find it strange that you cant see what i can see as i know a billion arguments can't earn guidence and one is enough for one who is guided, do such charity in which you dont get anything in return, i am not asking you anything but that which makes God give guidence, then perhaps you wont even need an argument, you will become one yourself. peace be on those who do charity in return of which they dont get anything. ------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 28 December 2010 at 11:24pm
This wiki page is dead or deleted! might want to avoid wiki's references!
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 29 December 2010 at 12:05am
Aren't you being rude with gentle brother when you can't make a good rebuttal? The reference of holy grail and Moby Dick is utter nonsense as far the subject goes! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 29 December 2010 at 7:42am
| As usual Sign Reader, you would rather resort to ad hominem attacks than address the issues. The fact that someone is a Christian is irrelevant to his argument as is the fact that I am an agnostic. Maybe you should address the points made instead of resorting to this blatant logical fallacy. Also, since you don't understand my argument against the term "compatible with science" let me help you. The holy grail reference is a metaphor and is a figure of speech in the English language. It refers to deliberately making something appear less important than someone else has made it out to be. Moby Dick is a book and a classic at that. In it you can find all sorts of nautical and weather related references and references to marine life. If I wished, I could say that Herman Melville (the author of Moby Dick) was prescient when he wrote this in the 1850s and then proceed to show how there might be deeper meaning in certain phrases. You are correct that a better reference might have been another story written 1400 or so years ago like Homer's Iliad. However, you are incorrect in saying the reference is utter nonsense. |
Posted By: uniquepos
Date Posted: 29 December 2010 at 6:56pm
| i dont believe any darwin theorem at all, it is so st**id.. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 30 December 2010 at 7:30am
| Uniquepos, what an astute and well thought out analysis. You will fit right in here. However, perhaps you could expand your thought just a little. |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 31 December 2010 at 9:34am
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Sign Reader, the Wikipedia article exists. There seems to be some problems with quotation marks in links. Search for "Qur'an and science" in Wikipedia and you will get there. The article begins with The contemporary Islamic discourse on the Qur�an and science abounds with assertions of the relationship between the two. This presumed relationship is construed in a variety of ways, the most common of which are the efforts to prove the divine nature of the Qur�an through modern science. The relevant part is this: The search for Qur'anic references to and prophecies of modern scientific discoveries has become a "popular trend" in some Muslim societies; as a manifestation of the popularity of the scientific miracles belief, the Muslim World League at Makkah formed a committee named Committee on the Scientific Miracles of the Qur?a-n and the Sunna to investigate the relation between Qur'an and science, headed by Zaghloul El-Naggar. According to some recent studies of the relationship between science education and religion, one of the ways in which science education in strongly Islamic societies is impacted by religiosity is when "acceptable" scientific discoveries can be found to have been anticipated or "identified" by the Qur'an, with consequent implications for what is taught and not taught. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 31 December 2010 at 9:35am
What do you mean by Darwin theorem? ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: qazi rehan
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 5:49pm
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Asalam a Alaikum,
Brothers is there is any clue of clashing of earth and star in 2012 as many scientist are saying or what is the current condition of solar system , is there is any sign of such thing in solar system that we are going close to disaster? Rehan |
Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 10:16pm
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Salam
It's just a movie. The mainstream scintists do not believe this will happen. ------------- Salam/Peace, Semar "We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH) "1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air" |
Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 11 April 2011 at 2:56pm
As Salaamu Alaykum - Kayfa Haalaka - rememberallah
First Let Me Say I Mean No Disrespect Ok . But Have To As This Question .
Are You Using ( Hadiyth = Words Of Me Not Of Allah / Qur'aan ) To Make Your Point Above ? ) . Because According To The Holy Qur'aan / Koran Chapter 41 ; ( Fussilat ( Explained In Detail Or Ha Min ( Hakiym And Muhammad Revealed In The Year 616 A.D. ) 1 - 11 Is Speaking Of This , I Quote ; Rahman ~ Most Enosites Turen Away From The Qur'aan ~ MHuhammad A Bashar Like Them ~ Those Who Don't Give Zakat Are Kaafiruwn ~ Muhammad Ask The Messcans Do They Set Up Equals With Allah ? The Source Turns His Direction To The Skies ~ The Source Ordained Them Seven Heavenly Skies . ------------- El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) . |
Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 13 April 2011 at 10:28am
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make ur point clear. i dont get what u mean. peace be on you. ------------- The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law. |
Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 13 April 2011 at 3:52pm
Wa Alaykum As Salaam
Accounding To The Verse You Use It Not Saying What Your Saying , According To The Qur'aan Its Saying This ( First Let Me Say I Mean No Disrespect Ok . But Have To As This Question .Are You Using ( Hadiyth = Words Of Me Not Of Allah / Qur'aan ) To Make Your Point Above ? ) . Because According To The Holy Qur'aan / Koran Chapter 41 ; ( Fussilat ( Explained In Detail Or Ha Min ( Hakiym And Muhammad Revealed In The Year 616 A.D. ) 1 - 11 Is Speaking Of This , I Quote ; Rahman ~ Most Enosites Turen Away From The Qur'aan ~ MHuhammad A Bashar Like Them ~ Those Who Don't Give Zakat Are Kaafiruwn ~ Muhammad Ask The Messcans Do They Set Up Equals With Allah ? The Source Turns His Direction To The Skies ~ The Source Ordained Them Seven Heavenly Skies .
Read It For Yourself And If You Still Think Back Up What Your Saying . Hey It Cool . I Don't . ------------- El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) . |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 14 April 2011 at 7:48am
Yes, it's just a movie and a weird esoteric movement reading nonsense into the Mayan calendar. The same people thought the world would end on January 1, 2000. We're still here. And we will be in 2013. Do not worry. Earth is safe. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: pure_columbian
Date Posted: 14 April 2011 at 8:21am
Don't worry we got Bruce Willis and the rest of the Armageddon crew on stand by just in case
 |