Why building a mosque near "ground zero" is bad
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Topic: Why building a mosque near "ground zero" is bad
Posted By: Gibbs
Subject: Why building a mosque near "ground zero" is bad
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 9:48am
| What do you guys think about this issue (especially sign reader) let me know |
Replies:
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 9:54am
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I believe its bad for the simple fact that for the sake of political correctness muslims should allow a good two decades for the feelings to fade. Because of societal media, people are influenced by how Islam has negatively effected America. If a mosque is built I do believe vandalism would happen whether the first day, second day, or a month from now.
I believe that the idea of Islam still has a negative connotation and people especially Muslims building the mosque needs to be smart |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 10:13am
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Gibbs,
I agree with your above comment. It would be insensitive to go ahead with it. How near is 'near'? People are still suffering the effects of 9/11..call it PTSD if you like. And I don;t believe it will benefit muslims in the long term with their relationships with others in the US. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: UmmFatima
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 10:56am
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Yeah I agree with you two. I wouldn't want to go to a mosque at ground zero for fear of some radical American terrorist... I mean, maybe a cultural center? It seems like a lot of people like the idea of a multi-cultural project there, what about a global understanding thing? Like flags of every country, imported jewelry or something. Like a global exchange? Have ethnic classes in pottery/language/etc? Maybe if it was a super Sufi mosque it'd be okay. I dunno. ------------- �Our Lord! Grant us comfort in our spouses and descendants, and make us leaders of the God-fearing.� -Al-Furqan 74 |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 1:31pm
| Well I'm reading now that they are continuing the plans for the building of the mosque so I will update the thread with the link. I believe the idiot Sarah Palin commented on this by using a non-word not even in a dictionary. Anyway I will keep you guys posted. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 2:48pm
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Ok here is the video link: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/14/new.york.ground.zero.mosque/?hpt=Sbin
Please watch the videoto get an understanding of the feelings of the people. You have one lone young Muslim woman condoning the building of the mosque however as you watch the video the demonization of the Islamic faith continues. I'm sorry but I really think after watching the reaction Muslims in NY should not build it for the simple fact of whgat has happened. You cannot continue to say "Islam is peace" to millions of citizens who has watched, witnessed 9/11. Yes Atrocities happen elsewhere but people aren't going to care about elsewhere when you are building a religious monument associated with terrorist attacks on September 11th. I wish these Muslims in NY understood the minds of these New Yorkers
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 3:15pm
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Hey guys let's get all the facts on the table and then say whatever! http://www.cordobainitiative.org/ - http://www.cordobainitiative.org/ According to the man this is not a mosque but a community center like Y mosque will be a part of the facility...I would tend to agree there is no way Muslims in US can afford $100 million project unless there is a big backing of sorts...I mean some big kahuna then I saw http://blog.sojo.net/2010/06/08/forgiveness-fear-and-the-mosque-at-ground-zero/ - Jim Wallis blog ... aha! Jim who? the one who has the ears of the community organizer in chief! The answer is blowing in the wind coming from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave my friends! The Jewish Mayor Bloomberg is supporting this who are we to say any thing, may be he will find the bucks! And then two morons you know who? that Mama grizzly and foot in the mouth http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2010/July/Palin-Bloomberg-Spar-over-NYC-Mosque-Plans/ - ignorant Boykin on the subject and now things are getting a bit testy in the political circles! You heard what was the comment from Romneys' alley about the Mama? IMHO Protestant's diaspora in the political realm has driven them over the edge and to gain traction in this war of trivialities will throw them off further...I think this is a big red herring that liberals are throwing in their way..let's see where this ends up...let the chips fall where they may; we'll know by this fall! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 8:50pm
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Ya, i do did find it funny how many NYC politicians are behind this whole thing. Politics not withstanding, I would wait. But not forever the reason being is when you hear groups arguing who was responsible for what and its like over 100 years ago! Its like the Turkey Armenia debate.. okay one side says x, the other y, but dear heavens, it just goes on and on and on. Some people live on in the past and there is lots to do now... ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 10:48pm
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First of all, it is still a sad case that the American society still believe that Muslims were behind the atrocities of 911.
Sad because their ignorance is a choice that they made. Their ignorance is due to the false information that they were fed with. The fact still remains that the American leaders had a hand in 911. Only a certain percentage of the Americans are aware who were behind this atrocities. Not the Muslims, No!
I think it is a good idea that a mosque or a Muslim cultural centre is built at the tragic site to show the American citizens that Muslims are not afraid of reality. Even how hateful Islam seems to the Americans, the reality is that Islam is indeed a religion of peace. This is a chance to portray Islam in a positive light. If ever vandalism were to happen, whose fault would that be? Muslims or Islamophobes? Though Islam had a bad publicity since 911, it is still a wonder that Islam had conquered many hearts and minds of new converts of not only the Americans but the whole world. And it is still expanding.
Possibily also, this site may also be a place where ignorant Americans would know the facts about 911.
Indeed what Allah said is true, Man planned, but the best of Planner is indeed Allah Al-Aleem (All Knowing). ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 3:18am
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Hayfa,
I agree America should not wait for ever. Yep, people debate on stuff which is centuries old. However we are not the ones licking wounds. I have to relate it to war in UK eg 2nd WW. There are many still alive here that remember being bombed night after night for months on end with no respite. Whilst many have come to terms with it there are still those that cannot escape the nightmares. As the years go by, when they are no longer here, we will rely on stories they passed down. So sure, not wait forever to build this mosque/cultural centre, but for many Americans to do it now would be like a kick in the teeth. Nur Ilahi, There will always be conspiracy theories on who was to blame. Eventually the FULL truth might be known. The sadness is not so much as to who to blame but that it actually happened in the first place. All humans are ignorant,no matter what religion or culture they come from. I am ignorant on many things, just as you are, just as we all are here. We have our own thoughts, but thoughts are not always truths. So, bridges need building and trust needs to be gained. Americans, many, are ignorant about Islam. In fact it would be true to say that Americans can be ignorant about their own country. It is huge after all. So to just blame their ignorance is not helpful to them. The worst possible thing to do is keep saying how YOU are right in what you say cos you are a muslim. Do you really think anyone would accept that face value? Of course not. So...for anyone to understand YOUR view and billions of other muslims you have to teach with understanding and caring. TO say that something is true based on numbers of reverts to Islam would not for example prove to another that it is a true religion. So, sure, one day to erect this building could be helpful. Right now would not be a good time. I am sure the majority agree. It is not Islamophobia, people died by terrorist means. It could have been( could still prove to be) any religion and the grief would still be the same Salams to you Nur. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 5:35am
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Nur Illahi I disagree with you and I'm going to tell you why. I disagree for the simple fact that, regardless whether this is a community center slash mosque, anything "Islamically related" still carries a negative connotation to it. Now, we can get into the debate of how 9/11 wasn't done by Muslims but by Jews, or the CIA, or the FBI but the fact remains is society is convinced it was done by muslims and society is convinced that Islam is a "violent faith" and having a community center near ground zero would be considered a slap in the face to the family of the victims. The fact that you said that you'd want a mosque there to show Americans that muslims aren't afraid of reality is problematic as well.
In the interest of fairness instead of having a mosque it ought to be an inter-faith community center shared by all religious members and house all religious and non-religous events. To me that would be politically correct versus simply having a community center AND a mosque. People won't care about the community centre but if you said there is a mosque next to it you have this problem. |
Posted By: blackflag
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 4:08pm
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One thing that this Cordoba Project is clearly showing is that majority of the non-Muslim Americans and even a few Muslim Americans are truly firm on the belief that Islam (or anything that has to do with Islam and being a Muslim) = blowing things up. In other words, yes, this Ground Zero Mosque Project has showed how much of Islamaphobia we are facing in a country where people are supposed to be open-minded. But I understand, that this is, the families of the 9/11 victims, who are protesting against this project, are 150% driven by emotions, rather than a rational approach towards understanding the difference between Islam and Terrorism (and this has even made them not recognize that there were hundreds of Muslims that died from that attack). That such a peaceful religion condemns these Terrorists and labels them as not followers of Islam. And one thing that I am kind of not understanding is that, what is this growing number of Muslims in America doing when we still have large number of New Yorkers, Americans in general still say comments like "let them build the Mosque in Ground Zero, we will just blow it up and build a church in Mecca" or "now they can breed terrorists right next the WTC"? |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 4:25pm
Let's hear from the horse's mouth! No pun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIPO7CVflA&feature=player_embedded - THIS IS NOT A MOSQUE...... ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Gibbs wrote:Posted By: blackflag
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 4:35pm
To a large degree the grief would be different it it was, hypothetically, let's say in a plane flown by Christians to a tower in a Muslim country. I am sure if that country was truly following the Islam then would have no problem in accepting the Christian community in that Muslim country to build a Church near the tower. A good religion respects other religion, and their beliefs. Converting people by force is not accepted in Islam. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 9:43pm
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All humans are ignorant,no matter what religion or culture they come from. I am ignorant on many things, just as you are, just as we all are here.
Dear Martha,
Allah created everything in pairs and opposites. And the Soul that He lent to us has the Qudrah (Power), Iradhah (Will) and Ilm (Knowledge). We have the choice to eradicate our ignorance with these characteristics. In other words, seek knowledge. That is why the first word sent to Prophet Muhammad was Iqra! Read!. It is our responsibility to find out who is behind this inhuman atrocities. If you consider yourself a Muslim, you have a duty to clear Islam from being smeared by Islamophobes.
We have our own thoughts, but thoughts are not always truths.
Correct! What you wrote recently on hijab was exactly that. Your thoughts precisely.
So, bridges need building and trust needs to be gained. Americans, many, are ignorant about Islam. In fact it would be true to say that Americans can be ignorant about their own country. It is huge after all. So to just blame their ignorance is not helpful to them.
That is why building an Islamic Centre and a Mosque at this tragic site is good. Americans need to get rid of their ignorance. And this Islamic Centre would sure help in that way. A way of building bridges and gain trust.
The worst possible thing to do is keep saying how YOU are right in what you say cos you are a muslim.
I am conveying my perception and facts as a Muslim. I do not think that is a sin?
Do you really think anyone would accept that face value?
NEVER ACCEPT ANYTHING ON FACE VALUE. Do Your Own Maths. The knowledge is out there at a click of the mouse. If you want Americans to believe that Muslims are behind these atrocities, then it reflects your faith in Islam.
So...for anyone to understand YOUR view and billions of other muslims you have to teach with understanding and caring.
Sometimes there are people who are so stoneheaded that you need a different approach. Like hitting the head with a hammer -
 TO say that something is true based on numbers of reverts to Islam would not for example prove to another that it is a true religion.
So you don't believe that Islam is a true religion?
So, sure, one day to erect this building could be helpful. Right now would not be a good time. I am sure the majority agree. Why not? Do you depend on the mainstream media who are lackeys of the Dajjal Worshipping Zionists for info?
It is not Islamophobia, people died by terrorist means. It could have been( could still prove to be) any religion and the grief would still be the same
Right, the grief and the loss is so true. Indeed the people who were behind these atrocities are terrorists. And I can assure you that they are not Muslims. Why are you having a lack of faith in your own brothers? ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 9:50pm
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Nur Illahi I disagree with you and I'm going to tell you why. I disagree for the simple fact that, regardless whether this is a community center slash mosque, anything "Islamically related" still carries a negative connotation to it.
Hi Gibb,
Exactly the reason why Muslims must find ways of eradicating any negativity towards Islam. Islam is a religion of peace and we were not behind 911, why must we be afraid of any backlashes? If we are afraid, that means we are guilty and we are not. PERIOD!
Now, we can get into the debate of how 9/11 wasn't done by Muslims but by Jews, or the CIA, or the FBI but the fact remains is society is convinced it was done by muslims and society is convinced that Islam is a "violent faith" and having a community center near ground zero would be considered a slap in the face to the family of the victims.
The more reason why we should build community centre or mosque there, to convince them that Muslims were not behind these atrocities and to change their perceptive that Islam is not a violent faith. If they are too lazy to find the truths, let the truth come to them.
The fact that you said that you'd want a mosque there to show Americans that muslims aren't afraid of reality is problematic as well.
Problematic? The problem lies if you ignore or are afraid of Truth. Anyone who are afraid to confront Truth would always be a coward. Perhaps this building may be able to instill courage among Americans to face facts, to acknowledge Truth. To let them know who their real enemies are and that the atrocities were not the acts of Muslims.
People won't care about the community centre but if you said there is a mosque next to it you have this problem.
I do not understand why having a mosque be a problem. Would having a church or synagogue built there be a problem for Muslims or Americans? I do not think so. Even though real terrorists are associated with this two. The best way to build peace is to get rid of any kind of phobia especially Islamophobia.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 8:39am
|
Nur_Illahi
It won't matter to the public that the mosque community center is a symbolic representation of peace, these people care about their feelings and how America felt on September 11th 2001. All people know is that the hijackers were so-called Muslims motivated ultimately by a religious-political message. It doesn't matter if you call Americans ignorant or not understanding. The damage is done and it will take decades or maybe never to eradicate this feeling. You can preach until your face turns blue society will never fully accept Islam in the folds of daily life, unfortunately. Just as an atheist cannot persuade you that God doesn't exist so to, you cannot persuade Americans. Even if you do, the conservative Christians in power have the money, resources, and influence to continue the bigotry against Muslims and in an age of technology, speech and simple talk only goes so far. Again this is still a bad idea. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 8:51am
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SignReader thanks for the link but I have a few questions.
1) who then started the rumor a mosque would be built? 2) If this project is meant to service the religious and non religious community why aren't there other leaders speaking with this gentleman. 3) if this project is funded by non muslims why aren't they speaking on his behalf? |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 9:53am
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When I first learnt of this cultural center, I thought it was a good thing although a bit controverisal being at ground zero but at the same time, a place for people to learn and build bridges, become more aware of things, a place to get information from and not from the news on tv.
Perhaps its the optimistic in me
 Those affected by what happened probably will never get over it and will always come from the emotions but is that a reason not to move ahead and build something like this islamic cultural center ? whether its on ground zero or not.
If it was to be called a multi cultural/belief center and islam has a place there, how would this make it better? when people have certain feelings towards islam. it'll problem get vandalize too, so.................
-------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 2:07pm
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 2:22pm
Salams Blackflag,
Personally I would prefer it FIRST if Islamic sects didn't kill eachother. The Ahmadis attack in Pakistan show how fragile relations are between muslims. People might say it was a political motive..but sunnis consider them heretics. Here in the UK the Ahmadis are kicked out of sunni restaurants and businesses. I don't see it as being a good example to show non-muslims.
So, when muslims are united I would feel we are getting somewhere.
As regarding Christians I post the following:-
In a famous letter to all Christian nations, Muhammad wrote, "Christians are my citizens; and by God! I hold out against anything that displeases them." The fact that Muhammad formalized this expectation in writing demonstrates its immense importance. He concluded the letter with a firm reminder, "No one of the nation of Muslims is to disobey this covenant till the end of the world."
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/jul/22/ed-rashid22-ar-346125/ - http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/jul/22/ed-rashid22-ar-346125/
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 2:26pm
Hi GIbbs,
I have read that it's the Saudi muslims that are financing the majority of funds and not the American Muslims. Wouldn't it have been a better idea for the American Muslims to cough up the dough?
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 4:24pm
|
Here is more about the project... http://www.cordobainitiative.org/ Another good article http://blog.sojo.net/2010/06/08/forgiveness-fear-and-the-mosque-at-ground-zero/ ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: SteppeNomad
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 4:33pm
Just wanted to say (regarding OP also), if we took the same logic to wait several years before building a mosque in the area because of the atrocities committed by those few nut heads or the government (�conspiracy�) then we would have to wait pretty long for sentiment to run dry.
If this mosque or community centre, whatever we wish to call it serves the community well, then this is a good sign and would be a good example and maybe lead to beneficial things for both Muslim and ordinary people in the states or NY. Hopefully.... ------------- Ya Allah, Bismillah, AllahuAkbar. |
Posted By: SteppeNomad
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 4:40pm
Here in UK, we have the government always moan about certain centres whom are recruiting �extremists�, including 2 of the biggest mosques in London, yet the govt knows where the funding for this �extremism� is coming from, all it needs to do is close the taps, but some how I think their mutual benefit between politics, oil shaykhs and media.
Plus, they could have found a better name, sounds like a re � reconquista Wont be long before they have the American version of "undercover mosque" once the jobless crowd get sucked into a "We v Zionist Kuffar" mentality. ------------- Ya Allah, Bismillah, AllahuAkbar. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 10:03pm
Gibbs, do not speak on behalf of all Americans. I do not think that they have the same feelings as yours.
Islam should have the freedom to speak and not being suppressed by the likes of "the conservative Christians in power have the money, resources" .
This building is a a stepping stone for Islam and Muslims InshaAllah! ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 10:09pm
|
Dear Martha,
Nur, it is also your responsibility to get ALL the facts. Seek knowledge. As a muslim I am only interested in the truth regardless of who committed this atrocity.
Martha, one of the signs of the end times according to the Hadiths of Rasulullah (I know you do not believe in Hadiths) is that the world would be full of Fitnahs. Fitnahs as in Lies, slander, dishonesty, falsehood, Imposters, Untruths and the likes. How True our Dear Rasulullah was. The Satanic leaders of the world did a good job in slandering Islam when they carried out 911. Islam the religion of Peace and Truth being slandered, being smeared so that human being would fear Islam like a plague. That is the TRUTH.
Read my sentence again. I said thoughts are not ALWAYS truths. I still consider myself right about hijab.
I have no problem if you do not want to don hijab. It is a personal choice. But to censure this wise law of Allah based on your ignorance, is too much for me. Putting this Islamic law in a very bad light. You know what made me came back to post? Your reply in the thread Hijab. It is soo.. not right.
I didn't say it was a sin. As always you love to twist words around. If I am wrong, show me the reasons why I am wrong. I love to read between the lines especially your posts. I find some very misleading in regards to faith in Islam.
NO. What you SHOULD have said is it reflects my faith in MUSLIMS. There is a huge difference. And what material do you rely on re: this atrocity?
If the atrocity was clearly carried out by Muslims, then by all means you should condemn the Muslims. But the atrocities were carried out by the DAJJAL WORSHIPPING ZIONISTS. Don't tell me, after 9 years you are still in the dark about that? I thought you are smarter than that.
Yep! Glad you accept you are a stonehead . Pass me the hammer please
You remind me of 'brother' Izrafil. I loved to spar words with him. I wonder where he is now.
So you don't believe that Islam is a true religion?
Lol, again you are playing games with words.
This is a straitforward question. I think you should not have any problem in answering that.
You ask why not. I have given my reasons. I depend on no-one other than my GOd thanks. And your reasons if you ask my God is that it is unacceptable.
Wow, how come you know the REAL truth ? Hmmm
 Well, no TRUE muslim would commit this act. BUt they might have thought they were.Still thinking that Muslims are behind 911? This speaks volume!
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 2:39am
| Nur Illahi my feelings have nothing to do what I implied. If you must know I don't care of they built another dome of the rock there. I just know from people from work and others on the street I speak to about how they feel about muslims. The fact that this thread is discussing the issue is in it of itself evidence of how Americans feel about Islam. Nothing about my opinion here. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 7:12am
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Gibb, Most of them are ignorant. You should make it your responsibility to educate your countrymen to get out of this situation. You know who were behind this atrocity. You should keep them informed of it and let them know who the real culprits are. It is not for the Muslims, but it's for upholding Truth. That is if Truth matters to you. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 7:54am
|
well ultimately I don't know who was behind the attacks. I do know that thousands of people died that day. Muslim, non-muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu, all suffered the same fate. But regardless of that fact, society is convinced that this was done by Muslims and since then as you already know, the media has demonized Islam. Now psychologically I assume New Yorkers are still affected so again, even if I stood there in support, there are hundreds maybe thousands opposed to me.
I mean you can build it there but despite its reasons for it being there vandals will take the opportunity to deface the property. I think fiscally in that location its not the smart thing to do. |
Posted By: UmmFatima
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 8:41am
I agree... we don't need to put our brothers and sisters in a risky location... I don't think it's a wise move. @Nur Ilahi You're right that we aren't doing enough to inform ppl that the perpetrators of 9/11 weren't Muslim like they said they were, and that a mosque there might shed some light on this reality. I still think a cultural center might be better. ------------- �Our Lord! Grant us comfort in our spouses and descendants, and make us leaders of the God-fearing.� -Al-Furqan 74 |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 9:06am
Please refrain from posting any thing from the Ahmedi perspectives...They have long history of nefarious activities as far the treason of the faith is concerned ...Thanks...I think we have been on that discussion in the past if my failing memory serves me right!  I haven't had my tea yet! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 11:06am
martha I am not sure this is Saudi funded project unless it is illegal you have no business pointing fingers ... IMO the Saudis stopped most of their funding after 911...BUT one can do the pointing about others say Catholic church system that is controlled and funded from Vatican! The Bush Sr library took lot of funds from ME  Did you see Faisel's press conference video? He clearly says it is not a Mosque why don't you believe him? The American Muslims have coughed up lots of dough to do that it is smart thing to do that for the well off otherwise US will take a bigger bite out of their earnings! I think it will be an interesting drama come November midterm to see these hypocritical pols! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 6:23pm
| Thanks SignReader that was an informative response. I will give mines later. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 9:46am
Hmm, maybe the discussions on the Ahmedi's were before my time. Anyway, not quite sure what the issue is there, but sure ,we'll move on.
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 10:00am
Erm, again not sure of your response andwhy you think I am pointing fingers. I had read it and was passing it on. Though perhaps for the Americans it would look better for American muslims to fund it.? They might prefer it that way? No-idea. Get your point about American Muslims already having paid out tho. BUt not seeing it in that sense tbh
Er, I haven't seen fais post anything here, and looking at my posts I have only refered once to this building as a mosque/culteral centre. Hmm, you got me there Sign*
 ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 10:21am
|
[QUOTE=Nur_Ilahi]
Dear Martha,
Nur, it is also your responsibility to get ALL the facts. Seek knowledge. As a muslim I am only interested in the truth regardless of who committed this atrocity.
Martha, one of the signs of the end times according to the Hadiths of Rasulullah (I know you do not believe in Hadiths) is that the world would be full of Fitnahs. Fitnahs as in Lies, slander, dishonesty, falsehood, Imposters, Untruths and the likes. How True our Dear Rasulullah was. The Satanic leaders of the world did a good job in slandering Islam when they carried out 911. Islam the religion of Peace and Truth being slandered, being smeared so that human being would fear Islam like a plague. That is the TRUTH.
The signs of the times are applicable in all religions, so I do understand what they are. Even if I don't follow hadiths the truth of the Quran still remains. And people can scorn, but a muslim is a muslim and there are plenty of them that DON'T follow hadiths and also DON'T follow the Rashad Khalifa. There are bad leaders everywhere, it isn't just assigned to Christians. We just have to spot themthats all.
I have my own reasons for not following hadiths. And I don;t think it would be right for me to explain them here. BUt the Quran is true.
Read my sentence again. I said thoughts are not ALWAYS truths. I still consider myself right about hijab.
I have no problem if you do not want to don hijab. It is a personal choice. But to censure this wise law of Allah based on your ignorance, is too much for me. Putting this Islamic law in a very bad light. You know what made me came back to post? Your reply in the thread Hijab. It is soo.. not right.
I have also said many times that I have no problem with who wears hijab. I said it is not right for me. So that is that. Where have I said to censure the hijab? No, I have not and would not.
ANd it is NOT due to lack of belief before you suggest it is. I So you consider yourself right. That;s your perrogative.
I didn't say it was a sin. As always you love to twist words around. If I am wrong, show me the reasons why I am wrong. I love to read between the lines especially your posts. I find some very misleading in regards to faith in Islam.
I have no reason to prove you wrong on anything. It is you that wants to. I just post here cos I like to discuss. ANd it is healthy to discuss and we are encouraged to.
NO. What you SHOULD have said is it reflects my faith in MUSLIMS. There is a huge difference. And what material do you rely on re: this atrocity?
If the atrocity was clearly carried out by Muslims, then by all means you should condemn the Muslims. But the atrocities were carried out by the DAJJAL WORSHIPPING ZIONISTS. Don't tell me, after 9 years you are still in the dark about that? I thought you are smarter than that.
Nope, I don;t judge so easily and I haven't seen all the proof. THere are millions of sites to go through. And I am sure if there was definitive proof I would have heard a bout it. All I see are conspiracy theories,(which I love) but that isn;t what we are talking about. Tell me your source and save me time so I can read it. Then we can discuss afterwards.
Yep! Glad you accept you are a stonehead . Pass me the hammer please
You remind me of 'brother' Izrafil. I loved to spar words with him. I wonder where he is now.
Hmm, heard he was banned. Sparring is good sometimes. Othertimes it gets tedious. Think we know eachother well enough to know the what response is coming. Actually Israfil was ok.
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 1:43pm
|
Er, I haven't seen fais post anything here, and
looking at my posts I have only refered once to this building as a
mosque/culteral centre. Hmm, you got me there Sign* martha: Not our member fais but the man in charge of the Cordoba Intuitive's Sheikh Feisal or Imam Feisel/Faisel what ever you prefer... the link I provided is on page 2 " this is not a mosque"! WE are here to edify, inform, learn and strengthen each others faith and respond the phobics gutter sniping... no intention getting anyone. I am too old for that... LOL Another thing most people here are not aware that POTUS MO is community organizing for his base and my understanding is that it is the way his handlers are running this country of zombies! So far 911 is concerned there should have been a trial of all accused by now, for people to see all the evidence in broad day light! Why that hasn't happened? It has been almost a decade! Talk about mosques the bigots are opposing them everywhere, while they have no constitutional/legal basis just the z'nist Christians bigotry more than the Jews themselves! There some decent law abiding Americans who really are up in the arms: Read the numbers of the letters to the editor to Los Angeles Times under http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/letters/la-le-0724-saturday-20100722,0,4886426.story - Keeping the faith ...It seems the mosques are the concern of the crusading war mongers inside and out! BTW they are going nowhere fast after nine years of high tech war against a ragtag army without shoes and in process the American economy with high unemployment is the main victim and so are the people who are too indoctrinated into a blatant lie ... They are spending their kids inheritance or livelihood or both while opposing the construction of mosque...How dumb? They are handing the world leadership to China on a golden platter! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 26 July 2010 at 12:14pm
|
Sign*
Thanks for straightening me out
 I agree with your post
I read your link about keeping the faith. It was good.
You know people often say muslim women for example are oppressed.BUt if all mosques or cultural centres are opposed then that is oppressing muslims. As is banning the hijab/burka etc. MUslims will be oppressed if these things happen.
My concern has only ever been how ALL people can intergrate irrespective of religions and cultures. Generally there are not enough people globally prepared to sit around the table and talk. Everyone everywhere demands this and that without considering others sufficiently. That includes wars, the economy, pretty much any topic you care to pick, including the building of this cultural centre.
Understanding must come from all without pressure before hand. That takes time.
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 26 July 2010 at 9:47pm
|
Dear Martha,
The Quran is from Allah thru Prophet Muhammad. Hadiths are the actions and sayings of Rasululluh. Without Rasulullah there would not be the Quran. Many of the Hadiths are explanations or clarifications for the intricate meaning of the Quran. Without Prophet Muhammad salallahualaihiwassalam, we would not be able to discover the beauty and secrets that could be found in the Quran. As I mentioned earlier, to be a Muslim we have to recite the Shahadah. The first half is the negation of all other Gods but Allah who is worthy of being worshipped and the other half is accepting Muhammad as the Prophet and messenger of Allah. Rejecting hadiths is like rejecting the other half of the Shahadah.
I care less whether you don the hijab or not, but you were insinuating that by putting the hijab, you were endangering your life and family. As if the fault lies with this beautiful law of Allah. The problem clearly is not the hijab but the society you are living with.
There are many websites that investigated the truth behind 911. And many of these originate from the US as well as many other western countries. It is a conspiracy plan against Islam and subjugating all humankind to slavery.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/ - http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/ http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3249714675910247150 - http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3249714675910247150 # http://whatreallyhappened.com/category/911 - http://whatreallyhappened.com/category/911
I am quite surprised that you are unaware of this conspiracy theory. From my experience debating on-line, those who have no love towards Islam would believe that 911 was carried out by Muslims.
As to Israfil, hmh... I will open up a thread about him once I got all the info. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 7:06am
|
What is the deal with you and that guy? Did he do something?
@SignReader I still need to gather my response to you been so occupied with everything else. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 10:00am
Well, back to facebook. At least there you cover some ground instead of going over old rope.
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 12:30pm
|
Yep, the
Quran is from Allah thru Muhammad. Hadiths were not written by Muhammed
so are not valid, especially as most were written 200years or so after
his death.
That is true so far say Bukhari or other compilers are concerned... but you know the Islamic republic was established in his life time and the sharia legal court system was a combo of Quran & Sunnah case law! THe beauty and secrets of the Quran
yes are very special. The beauty of Quran is in practice and that is no secret! The case law is one that find the intricacies in application only otherwise it is a big burden that the mountains refuse to accept, Allah mentioned in Quran metaphorically! BUt I will not believe in hadiths that portray Muhammad as something he was not.I don't think you want me to elaborate on that do you? Please do! I would like to know who portrays Muhammad(s) more than what he was! Do you remember the conversation the prophet had with Muadh bin Jabal when he appointed him governor of Yemen? Or you don't want to know his seerah too! Without that most of Quran's context will slip you by for its real taste and that will be a tragedy not knowing why do send blessing on to him and his companions or do you not do the prayers in totality? The Quran states that there is no distinction between the messengers. True, but not without antecedents of the prior messengers! but you know when there was a prayer all the prophets gathering before ascension who lead the congregation? That gave the importance to temple mount! Believers do not need to publicly bear witness that Muhammad is a messenger since they show that this is what they believe by simply obeying his instructions. And many would actually say that by adding Muhammads name is shirk. I hope that is not Ron Webb's toxic influence! martha puhleeeeease I like to know who are they? ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 12:34pm
| Can anyone answer my first inquiry? Since Nur_Illahi mentioned it and since I was accused of it why are you going to talk about some guy named Israfil since this thread has nothing to do with him? |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 2:14pm
|
Israfil was on this forum for a long long time posing as an African man/ woman revert but tried to triangulate as in chess the Islamic positions every opportunity came anyways! Sister Nur did some fancy foot work if I remember correctly and had him nailed! Now cuz, martha has some issues that they can't see eye to eye the reference of Israfil has popped up! BTW Israfil tried under another and then another ID and got slapped silly! Thanks to Nur... You know this is still internet and it takes a long long time to build credibility and good will when the trolls are all over Islamic sites... There are so many anti Islamic books being sold on Amazon that is amazing and it is so easy to get sponsors for faux former Muslims, just recently that Dean of Liberty Christian University, Ergun Caner was investigated by Alternet and finally they demoted him for his lying but they still are keeping him! Now I know what Jesus did, when he sent the devils into pigs...LOL They all became xtians at Liberty! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 2:23pm
|
Signreader lol
I like you cause you are funny and truthful. However i was linked with this guy and dont appreciate that. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 9:45pm
|
Hi Gibbs, Don't worry. You are better than that Israfil the Munafik aka Hypocrite. At least you are being yourself. Not someone else in disguise. Sign Reader, Thanks Brother. Appreciate that. I really have no patience with hypocrites. Make my 'blood go upstairs'.
Salam. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 10:32pm
Who did that? I M  help.............------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 28 July 2010 at 6:52am
| It is not important now. When I came here a couple thought I was him. I guess stuff I was saying I don't know. Kinda like Larry confusing me to be Muslim just cause I agree mostly with Muslims. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 03 August 2010 at 10:13pm
Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam Behind the 'Ground Zero Mosque'By BOBBY GHOSH Bobby Ghosh Tue Aug 3, 6:00 pm ET
The last legal hurdle to the proposed Islamic center near the site of the World Trade Center has been removed, but ignorance, bigotry and politics are more formidable obstacles. The unanimous vote Tuesday, Aug. 3, by the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission means the building that currently occupies 45-47 Park Place can be torn down, clearing the way for Park51, a project known to its critics as the "Ground Zero Mosque." Criticism spans the gamut, from the ill-informed anguish of those who mistakenly view Islam as the malevolent force that brought down the towers to the ill-considered opportunism of right-wing politicians who see Islam as an easy target. (Ironically, Islam's roots in New York City are in the area around the site of the World Trade Center, and they predate the Twin Towers: in the late 19th century, a portion of lower Manhattan was known as Little Syria and was inhabited by Arab immigrants - Muslims and Christians - from the Ottoman Empire.) With city authorities now out of the way, it is the people spearheading the project who must bear the enormous pressure to give up their plans and scrap the building. They are being accused of sympathizing with the men who crashed the planes on 9/11 and of designing the project as, in Newt Gingrich's reckoning, "an act of triumphalism." And yet Park51's main movers, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife Daisy Khan, are actually the kind of Muslim leaders right-wing commentators fantasize about: modernists and moderates who openly condemn the death cult of al-Qaeda and its adherents - ironically, just the kind of "peaceful Muslims" whom Sarah Palin, in her now infamous tweet, asked to "refudiate" the mosque. Rauf is a Sufi, which is Islam's most mystical and accommodating denomination. The Kuwaiti-born Rauf, 52, is the imam of a mosque in New York City's Tribeca district, has written extensively on Islam and its place in modern society and often argues that American democracy is the embodiment of Islam's ideal society. (One of his books is titled What's Right with Islam Is What's Right with America.) He is a contributor to the Washington Post's On Faith blog, and the stated aim of his organization, the Cordoba Initiative, is "to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions." His Indian-born wife is an architect and a recipient of the Interfaith Center Award for Promoting Peace and Interfaith Understanding.
Since 9/11, Western "experts" have said repeatedly that Muslim leaders who fit Rauf's description should be sought out and empowered to fight the rising tide of extremism. In truth, such figures abound in Muslim lands, even if their work goes unnoticed by armchair pundits elsewhere. Their cause is not helped when someone like Rauf finds himself being excoriated for some perceived reluctance to condemn Hamas and accused of being an extremist himself. If anything, this browbeating of a moderate Muslim empowers the narrative promoted by al-Qaeda: that the West loathes everything about Islam and will stop at nothing to destroy it.
Rauf and Khan have said Park51 - envisaged as a 15-story structure, including a mosque, cultural center and auditorium - will promote greater interfaith dialogue. The furor over the project only underlines how desperately it is needed.
|
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 04 August 2010 at 8:52am
Funny how people are sometimes, eh? I get the same to some times and from muslims because i know some stuff But its no secret that I'm non muslim thou  ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 06 August 2010 at 7:50pm
|
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/06/fareed-zakaria-returns-an_n_674099.html - Fareed Zakaria Returns Anti-Defamation League Award Over Ground Zero Mosque http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/06/fareed-zakaria-returns-an_n_674099.html ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 06 August 2010 at 11:02pm
|
Attaboy...I think I can go back to Fareed's show now!
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 07 August 2010 at 4:24am
|
Another one... threeup_js('Religion', '672997', '1');
document.write('Your request is being processed...');
Your request is being processed...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/06/ground-zero-mosque-gets-s_n_672997.html?ir=Religion < ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><> ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 07 August 2010 at 1:22pm
|
The way I see unemotionally by the separation of church and state under the constitution! If any one makes a fuss based on assumption or lack of knowledge will lose big time at el Tribunal Supremo....which is I think already in the pockets of the progressive forces! Imam faisal if sues from that point can walk away with hefty pocket change...due to the Palinite retrasos Cristianos & sionista ...And I will get a true kick at the end if that happens! It will be true American dream come true! Every one runs away when the law suits is staring in their faces! I bet some good Jewish attorneys may be rubbing there hands to make a killing and saying keep going till it ends up in federal court! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 4:15am
|
"First of all, it is still a sad case that American society still believe that Muslims were behind the atrocities of 9/11."
I suppose the fact that Osama bin Laden publicly announced that Al Qaida had conducted the hijackings and destruction of the twin towers doesn't matter to you. Or maybe the fact that all 19 hijackers, including 15 from Saudi Arabia, were Muslims just slipped your recollection. It is pathetic people like you that give Islam such a bad name because you prefer lies to accepting the truth. And you wonder why so many Americans have revulsion at the thought of a mosque anywhere near ground zero. "Indeed what Allah said was true, man planned, but the best of Planner is indeed Allah Al-Aleem (All Knowing." So it was Allah that planned the hijacking of planes and the murder of over 3,000 Americans? |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 4:26am
|
Well, Nur Illahi, you believe that it should be no problem with having a mosque near ground zero and ask "would having a church or a synagogue built there be a problem for Muslims or Americans? I do not think so."
Well, Nur Illahi, how about having a church or synagogue built in Saudi Arabia so that all the faiths can "build peace?" This is where you incredible hypocrisy is shown clearly. It's always fine with Muslims that America has thousands of mosques, but there is not one church or synagogue in the whole of Saudi Arabia. And you wonder why there is so much bad feelings for Muslims among a lot of Americans. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 5:52pm
Well Larry, while your point is certainly well taken, Saudis make up a tiny minority of Muslims worldwide. Saudi Arabia has two of the most holiest sites for Muslims, but the third most reverent site is located in Palestine, which does indeed have places of worship for other faiths. In addition, your argument is a bit specious because my county, America, is a democracy and The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - as the name suggests, is a monarchy. Certainly you are not suggesting that every sovereign country must be like the United States of America are you?
|
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 8:58pm
|
So Larry, Is Saudi Arabia now your teacher. So if Saudi Arabia does something, we Americans should do the same in tit for tat? That's real big of you.. So if Saudi Arabia does something (who does not represent all Muslims), you'll be just like them? As mentioned above there are about 22 million Saudi citizens.. New York and LA dwarf that alone. Why don't you compare US and and say, Indonesia. Which has over 230 million people.. They have cathedrals for Christians. I know you are obsessed with Saudi Arabia and cannot get past that there are 1.5 billion Muslims, 22 million of them are actually Saudi citizens. A rather small percentage really. And if you boil things down to actually who makes the laws in the monarchy, its really a handful of people making them. And besides Larry, what does Nur have to do with Saudi Arabia? She is not a citizen. Why don't you find out where she is from? You might find out in her country there the are churches and masjids. Most of us on the Board are not citizens of Saudi Arabia. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 9:42pm
|
Larry You are such a broken record it is beyond belief! You are constantly parroting the rut of you want a church and synagogue in Saudi Arabia! You know if the US government wanted one they could have it when they occupied(or rather neo colonized it tbma) the place long ago! The only difference Japan and K.S.A. is that they were not nuked but cowered into...I saw many moons ago the garrisoning was no different than Japan with some conditions...And it would be st.pid to nuke the pot of gold...just as the Japanese resent so do the Saudis but with one difference Japanese have to work very very hard and diligently to make those yens and the Saudis sit and let the rest do all the dirty work but the garrisoning is there none the less! Now what is Allah's macro plan I don't know but US government getting into church building doesn't seem to be the one so get someone slap you upside the head & stop that Saudi rant! Tell me who will go there? the darn hypocrites who go there in pursuit of what they do worship i.e., mammon...Saudi Arabia is America's biggest piggy bank! And they don't want a stu.pid man with a collar messing their party up that have been going on for last eighty years! When even the POTUS visit the gold plated palaces of the kings they helped build and they are really in amazement for a while! The select Americans go there to make hay in the sunshine in comfort... It is a huge pot of black gold kept in place with great care and planning as long as MIC is in place every one is having a good time except the bible thumpers! What I mean by MIC if you know? It is in news Boeing sold 30 Billion dollars worth of F15s to rot in the desert, Did you get the picture? Here is an very interesting article for you which deals with the reality if you will! The Anne Rice defection: It's the tip of the religious icebergAmerican Christianity is not well, and there's evidence to indicate that its condition is more critical than most realize � or at least want to admit.
But there's something more at play here than one of America's most famous Catholics � Rice re-embraced the faith of her youth in 1998 and published a memoir just two years ago, "Called Out of Darkness: A Spiritual Confession" � walking away from the church. Rice is merely one of millions of Americans who have opted out of organized religion in recent years, making the unaffiliated category of faith the fastest-growing "religion" in America, according to a 2008 study by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. The Pew report found that 1 in 6 American adults were not affiliated with any particular faith. That number jumped to 25% for people ages 18 to 29. Moreover, most mainline Protestant denominations have for years experienced a net loss in members, and about 25% of cradle Catholics have left their childhood faith, the study showed. And in a 2008 study by Trinity College researchers, 27% of Americans said they do not expect a religious funeral. American Christianity is not well, and there's evidence to indicate that its condition is more critical than most realize � or at least want to admit. Pollsters � most notably evangelical George Barna � have reported repeatedly that they can find little measurable difference between the moral behavior of churchgoers and the rest of American society. Barna has found that born-again Christians are more likely to divorce (an act strongly condemned by Jesus) than atheists and agnostics, and are more likely to be racist than other Americans. And while evangelical adolescents overwhelmingly say they believe in abstaining from premarital sex, they are more likely to be sexually active � and at an earlier age � than peers who are mainline Protestants, Mormons or Jews, according to http://www.latimes.com/topic/education/colleges-universities/university-of-texas-OREDU0000071.topic - University of Texas researcher Mark Regnerus. On the bright side, Barna's surveys show evangelicals (defined by Barna as a subset of born-again Christians, which he sees as a broader group with more flexible beliefs) do pledge far more money to charity, though 76% of them fail to give 10% of their income to the church as prescribed by their faith. Various studies show American Christians as a whole give away a miserly 3% or so of their income to the church or charity. "Every day, the church is becoming more like the world it allegedly seeks to change," Barna has said. Barna isn't the only worried evangelical. Christian activist Ronald J. Sider writes in his book, "The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience": "By their daily activity, most 'Christians' regularly commit treason. With their mouths they claim that Jesus is their Lord, but with their actions they demonstrate their allegiance to money, sex, and personal self-fulfillment." How to explain the Grand Canyon-sized gap between principles outlined in the Gospels and the behavior of believers? Christians typically, and rather lamely, respond that shortcomings of the followers of Jesus are simply evidence of man's inherent sinfulness. But if one adheres to the principle of Occam's razor � that the simplest explanation is the most likely � there is another, more unsettling conclusion: that many people who call themselves Christian don't really believe, deep down, in the tenets of their faith. In other words, their actions reveal their true beliefs. That might explain why Roman Catholic bishops leave predator priests in ministry to prey on more unsuspecting children. Or why churches on Sunday mornings are said to be the most segregated places in America. It also would explain why most Catholic women use birth control even though the practice is considered a mortal sin. Culturally, America is still a Christian nation. The majority of us still attend church at least occasionally, celebrate Christmas and Easter, and pepper our conversations with "God bless you" and "I'll be praying for you." But judging by the behavior of most Christians, they've become secularists. And the sea of hypocrisy between Christian beliefs and actions is driving Americans away from the institutional church in record numbers. Some, such as Anne Rice, are continuing their spiritual journey on their own, unable to reconcile the Gospel message with religious institutions covered with man's dirty fingerprints. Others have stopped believing in God. Those with awareness who remain Christians are scrambling to find ways, like St. Francis of Assisi, to rebuild God's church. But remember, St. Francis offered a radical example during a time when the institutional church had grown corrupt and flabby. He was a wealthy young man who took a vow of poverty and devoted himself to the poor. His motto: "Preach the Gospel at all times � and when necessary use words." A well-informed hunch says American Christians aren't ready for the kind of reformation that will realign their actions with biblical mandates. And in the meantime, the exodus from the church will continue. William Lobdell, a former Times staff writer, is the author of "Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith Reporting on Religion in America � and Found Unexpected Peace." ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-beliefs-anne-rice-20100807,0,5152082.story - Anne Rice discusses her decision to quit Christianity
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 2:38am
| Well, I don't think that all sovereign countries should be like the United States of America, I am saying that it is hypocritical to expect the U.S. to not have a problem with a mosque near ground zero but it is okay for Saudi Arabia, as the home of Islam, to ban churches or synagogues because it has the "two holiest" sites of Islam. The "holiest city" to Jews and Christians is Jerusalem, which came long before Islam did in the 7th century but Muslims demand that the shrines and mosques be part of the same city as their "third" holiest site. There doesn't seem to be much desire among Muslims to extend the same courtesies of faith to Jews and Christians that they expect for their faith. That is the point I was trying to make. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 2:47am
| I never said that Nur was a Saudi Arabian, my point was that there seemed to be a hypocrisy when Muslims demand respect for their religion in all times and places but don't extend the same courtesies to the other "People of the Book." Saudi Arabia having only 22 million people but "the two holiest" sites in the world wants to be treated with extreme respect by others but doesn't seem to need to show the same respect to the faiths of others. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 2:56am
|
Well, "Sign Reader", in addition to your usual religio-political ravings, there are 1.6 billion Muslims and 2.3 billion Christians, a difference of 700 million people, so if you want to talk numbers it would seem that Islam is the world's second choice in religion. And amazingly, there are only about 14 million Jews worldwide, but they have a huge presence in the world of faith as the source of all three great monotheistic religions. I'm not sure how many Hindus there are but I'm sure they run a close third.
Whether "Anne Rice" decides to be a Christian or not is her own problem, not mine, and simply irrelevant to Christians worldwide. She's lucky to leave Christianity alive, if she left Islam someone would want her dead. We Christians believe that people have free will and if they want to leave Christianity it's their life and their call. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 2:03pm
By your logic then, you were supposed to attack Saudi Arabia, right! Why Irack or A-stan? Did someone ask you explain the coming down of Building 7, that wasn't hit! Why hasn't there been an open court trials of people in custody or in absentia who you have the evidence against? No one wants to talk about it! It is just like the crucifixion thing! Milk it as much as possible from obfuscation as possible! The Cordoba Initiative is NOT at ground zero and a 13 story community center doesn't fit the mosque design in any shape or form...$100 million Mosque stuck between other buildings ...Are you you so dense?... I have yet to see a mosque that is more than two stories! So far the prayer space is concerned anywhere Muslims have a get together whether it is wedding party, a picnic, educational activity at university it pat of the plan to have a space for prayer and that is the way life plans are being designed...It is not like your church on Sunday thing at a church! Get that in your bible thumping thick scull... Without a prayer facilities a Muslim would not go any place for an extended period! What special rights you politically homeless right wingers have that are above and beyond the Muslims who were also killed on 911? The problem with so called Christians is that they have lost their bearings knocked off by the progressives red herrings and they don't get it! And that is what should be called PATHETIC. Period ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 1:43am
|
No, I don't approve of mass murder in the name of God, so I would never act like those homicidal maniacs. I don't need revenge, God will send their sinful dead souls to Hell anyway. I replied to the writer who said that there were no Muslims involved in 9/11. How do you deal with someone that is either that ignorant or is simply in massive denial? Or someone that would even try and say that Building 7 at the Trade Center came down when it wasn't hit, acting like this is proof someone other than the misguided Muslims who committed the mass murder on 9/11.
You are just as much in denial of the facts as the first writer. Osama bin Laden admitted that he was responsible for the attack. The God I worship doesn't approve of mass murder for any reason in these modern times and I don't think Allah does either. It doesn't matter if there will be "prayer facilities" or anything else at the new center, many people will find it offensive so close to ground zero, but many Muslims have no idea of why anyone would care. Perhaps if someone crashed three jetliners into the very heart of Mecca then wanted to build a church nearby the Muslims might have a problem with it, even though the people building the church had nothing to do with the attack. The Muslim community in New York is simply creating a lot of ill will because they are insensitive to the victims and families of the 3,000 dead Americans. No American will ever forget or forgive the senseless slaughter of innocents on 9/11 and rightly or wrongly the new "community center" will be a constant reminder of those attacks and a source of continuing resentment among many. Whether such feelings are justified or not, the effect will be the same. Your constant comments about my "Bible thumping" are just as lame as most of your comments. I know very well how you feel about Christians, and especially Jews. Would you be classified as a "Qur'an Thumper' by your own system of judging others? As far as the detainees going on trial, who cares? We have a system of law that will give them a fair trial, far more compassionate than the terrorism that they committed. Khalid Sheik Mohammed admitted that he was the one who actually came up with the attack plan in the first place. What do you think should happen to a person like him? Probation and a fine? |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 5:51am
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Yes Larry, why not attack SA? Weren't they the ones funding OBL and Co.? The average Afghani does not have millions in the bank.. and the Iraqis.. they are mostly Shia and no friend of OBL... ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 3:57pm
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Is revenge attack all you can think of? As I said before, I don't believe in murdering people to avenge murderers of 3,000 people. We believe in the law here in the United States and that is how the terrorists will be judged. If they are declared not guilty then they should go free, if they are guilty they should be put in prison in solitary confinement for life. Let them go insane over the years of incarceration, it would befit the horror of their actions.
Yes, I believe that Saudi Arabia carries some of the blame as they are the ones who are funding hundreds of Wahhabi madrassahs all over the world. The funny thing is that the "students" that come from these madrassahs now want to overthrow the Saudi monarchy. As to Afghanistan, the Taliban was given a chance to turn over the architects of the terror attacks in New York and Washington, but refused. You remember the Taliban, don't you? They were the ones who crowded women charged with "moral" sins, into packed sports stadiums in the backs of pickup trucks and then had them kneel in their burkhas while they were shot in the back of their heads with AK-47's. The Taliban that decreed the end of music, dancing, television, etc. and stood on the street corners to catch anyone doing any of the forbidden things, next to poles covered with wadded video and music cassette tapes. The Taliban that bombed barber shops that shaved their customers or any store that sold liquor. The Taliban were the ones who, in a crime against Afghanistan's long history and culture, dynamited the ancient 1,500 year old Buddha statues in Bamiyan because they considered them "idols". Oh, let's not forget the murder of 10 international medical team members, six Americans, a Briton, a German and three Afghanis, one who survived the massacre, that traveled the country to give medical, dental and eye treatments for no cost to Afghani children in the most remote villages who had never seen a doctor or dentist before. After robbing the bullet-riddled bodies of these medical volunteers, some of which had been helping the poor in Afghanistan for over 30 years, the Taliban admitted responsibility for the cold-blooded murders. The best they could come up with for a reason is that the volunteers were "proselytising Christianity" to the Afghans. The volunteers were supported by some churches and aid groups, as many humanitarian organizations in the West do. And according to Afghan law, did not prosetlytize Christianity, or any other religion. They were far better people, who represented the goodness and unselfishness of mankind and who truly made a better life for the poor in Afghanistan, Nepal, Pakistan, etc., then the disgusting and vile murdering terrorists do with their thefts, murder and suicide bombings that kill thousands of Muslims almost every day. So people who unselfishly and voluntarily worked to help the poor in Afghanistan and make a real difference in their lives, are murdered and robbed in cold blood by the "Taliban", who supposedly believe in Allah and the Qur'an. Do you think these cold-blooded, cowardly thieves and murderers go to heaven when they die? Do they serve the cause of Islam? Or are their murders "justified" by the way the "West" treats Muslims? I'm sure someone will deny that the Taliban was responsible and say it was a CIA plot to make the Taliban look bad....as if the Taliban needs any help in looking bad. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:01pm
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Enough of your ramblings, I wouldn't bother to reply any of your self righteous screeds in this month of Ramadan unless circumstances force me to...In the meantime chew on the following essay from Mary Tillman mother of Pat Tillman to bring you back down to ground reality! You wouldn't know the truth even it hit your face! Pat Tillman's mother on Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal: I told you soMary Tillman speaks on Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal and his role in covering up the truth about her son's death.Army http://www.latimes.com/topic/unrest-conflicts-war/defense/armed-forces/stanley-a.-mcchrystal-PEPLT00007602.topic - Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal
was forced to retire because of remarks he made to a Rolling Stone
reporter. Having read the article that led to his departure, I feel
strangely validated. "The Runaway General" described by journalist
Michael Hastings is exactly the arrogant individual I believed him to
be.McChrystal was in charge of Joint Special Operations Command in 2004, when my son, Pat, was killed in http://www.latimes.com/topic/intl/afghanistan-PLGEO00000021.topic - Afghanistan . But I didn't become aware of him until March 2007. That's when someone anonymously sent an Associated Press reporter a copy of a high-priority correspondence. The memo was written on April 29, 2004, by McChrystal and sent to Gen. John P. Abizaid, Gen. Bryan Douglas Brown and Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr. Its purpose was to warn http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/presidents-of-the-united-states/george-bush-PEPLT000857.topic - President George W. Bush and other officials to avoid making public comments about Pat's heroic death at the hands of the enemy, because it was beginning to seem "highly possible that Corporal Tillman was killed by friendly fire." The memo went on to caution against "unknowing statements by our country's leaders which might cause public embarrassment if the circumstances of Corporal Tillman's death become public." We knew nothing about this memo at the time it was written. In fact, we did not learn until weeks after Pat's memorial service that it was even possible he was killed by friendly fire. The memo makes it clear there was no intention of telling the truth unless circumstances made it absolutely necessary. Much later, during Brig. Gen. Gary Jones' investigation of Pat's death, McChrystal was asked why we were kept in the dark."Question: Once you became aware that this was a possible fratricide, was there a conscious decision made not to tell the family of the possibility?" "Witness: There was a conscious decision on who we told about the potential because we did not know all the facts. I did tell the senior leadership [long redaction] about the possibility prior to the memorial ceremony, because I felt they needed to know that before the ceremony. I believe that we did not tell the family of the possibility because we didn't want to give them a half-baked finding." McChrystal says they didn't want to give us a half-baked finding. Yet that is exactly what they did. Rather than being told there were questions about Pat's death, we were presented with a contrived story, an absolute lie about how he had been killed by enemy fire. What many people don't realize is that Pat's autopsy and field hospital report were very suspicious from the start. The autopsy gives a description of Pat's body that led us to later question if the autopsy was even his, and the field hospital report contains language that suggests he was alive when he was brought back to the field hospital at Forward Operating Base Salerno. Yet soldiers' statements indicated Pat was decapitated by the barrage of bullets, and he was deemed killed in action by the medic on the scene. These horrifying discrepancies raised dire questions. Even the medical examiner called for a criminal investigation, but the adjutant general prevented it from going forward. By covering up the circumstances of Pat's death, McChrystal and the rest of the chain of command may have, knowingly or unknowingly, covered up a crime. McChrystal's actions should have been grounds for firing him back then. That is why it was so disturbing to us when http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/barack-obama-PEPLT007408.topic - President Obama instead promoted McChrystal to the position of top commander in Afghanistan last year. At the time, I sent the president an e-mail and a letter reminding him of McChrystal's involvement in Pat's coverup. In the letter, I suggested McChrystal be "scrutinized very carefully" by the Senate Armed Services Committee. Pat's father and I both gave statements to the media reiterating that McChrystal should be properly vetted. We had real knowledge of McChrystal's questionable behavior, of actions that should perhaps have disqualified him from this position, and we felt it would be negligent not to do something. Our entreaties fell on deaf http://www.latimes.com/topic/health/human-body/ears-hearing-HHA000016.topic - ears . After McChrystal was forced to step down in June, I was contacted by several reporters and asked to give my thoughts about McChrystal, but I declined to comment. I hadn't read the piece in its entirety, so it seemed inappropriate to respond. Now, though, I have read and thought about the article. Obama clearly had no choice but to relieve McChrystal of his command. But how sad that the president and Congress didn't properly scrutinize the general a year ago. People have asked, "Why is Pat so special that so much attention is given to his death"? I understand that question. Thousands of soldiers and Marines have died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of their families have also been lied to, yet those deaths have not received the attention Pat's did. And Pat's death continues to be in the news. Pat's story initially became news because he was well known for having played in the http://www.latimes.com/topic/sports/football/nfl-ORSPT000007.topic - NFL . The government used his fame to create propaganda for the war. Pat is not more important or special than any of the others who have fought in these wars, but the truth of what happened to Pat � and to every soldier who has died � is important. The truth shines a light on systematic corruption, incompetence and lack of accountability in the military and in government. Over the last five years, the Pentagon and Congress have had numerous opportunities to hold accountable those responsible for the coverup of Pat's death. Each time they've failed. The government didn't just lie to us; it lied to a nation. Mary Tillman is the author of "Boots on the Ground by Dusk: Searching for Answers in the Death of http://www.latimes.com/topic/sports/pat-tillman-PESPT007370.topic - Pat Tillman ." A http://www.latimes.com/topic/arts-culture/genres/documentary-%28genre%29-0100000004593864.topic - documentary featuring her and other family and friends will open in theaters Aug. 20. ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 8:04am
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As to Afghanistan, the Taliban was given a chance to turn over the architects of the terror attacks in New York and Washington, but refused. You remember the Taliban, don't you? Ahh they did offer but wanted him to be judged in a neutral court.. which we refused. So its a tit for tat.. guess you forgot that.. The Muslim community in New York is simply creating a lot of ill will because they are insensitive to the victims and families of the 3,000 dead Americans. No American will ever forget or forgive the senseless slaughter of innocents on 9/11 and rightly or wrongly the new "community center" will be a constant reminder of those attacks and a source of continuing resentment among many. Whether such feelings are justified or not, the effect will be the same. Well for those who cannot "forgive" that is their problem. At some point we are all "wronged" and can choose what we do with that. If someone chooses to hate all Muslims for that. That is a "you" issue Larry. That is like saying Muslims and Jews in Spain should never forgive the Church and Spanish government for the Spanish Inquisition where they burned Muslim and Jews alive. And what about all the nonMuslims who support it? And you know Larry, if this goes into place, I bet you, that in 100 years we will see the true spirit of Americans in the move. That most Americans are really good people. They understand the difference between a few bad people and the majority of Muslims they see day to day in their lives. Just cause you do not know any Muslims, does not mean this is not true for the people of New York. Muslims too died in 9-11 and were firefighter and other workers who helped. And thank god there are enough people who move beyond the hate that lives in you Larry. I am saying that it is hypocritical to expect the U.S. to not have a problem with a mosque near ground zero but it is okay for Saudi Arabia, as the home of Islam, to ban churches or synagogues because it has the "two holiest" sites of Islam. Larry: are there any Christians in Mecca and Medihah? Why do you need a church (to worship) if there are no Christians? You makei t sound like there are no Muslims in New York. So the comparison does not hold. Same with Jeruseleum. There are people of different faiths.. so they have places to worship. I am proud of the many friends I have Larry who are capable of moving beyond the "hate" and the unforgiveness of you Larry. i am glad that people of the Tea Party are a minority of Americans. I am glad there are people all over the globe who can see past the politics, racial and ethnic lines, and religion and can strive to make this world a better place. And I am glad there there are so many people who don't want to make someone "pay" for the mistakes or wrong-doing by someone else. So people who unselfishly and voluntarily worked to help the poor in Afghanistan and make a real difference in their lives, are murdered and robbed in cold blood by the "Taliban", who supposedly believe in Allah and the Qur'an. Do you think these cold-blooded, cowardly thieves and murderers go to heaven when they die? Do they serve the cause of Islam? Or are their murders "justified" by the way the "West" treats Muslims? You know Larry, the fact that these people entered a war zone and that how does anyone there know who is friend or foe.. its the same for the US soldiers there, its true for the Afghani people. How do they know? Its kind of hard to differentiate when "we" come with "aid" and "guns" and sometimes both- one in each hand. How do you trust? And often those coming do not respect the culture or the society. Its like if I went the Congo I might die too.. why? Cause its a war zone. Larry: did you believe the Russians were out to get you too? Did you think that we should have gone to Vietnam? Just curious.. we went with aid and a gun and we can see how that turned out can't we- all senseless slaughter and they ended up "communist" any way. Do you REALLY think there is a point to the wars- beside money? Having lived over in that region Larry. They are never going to do what we want they to do. Or be like WE want them to be. Seriously, there people live in poor housing, have very little money, little education and in fact fight with weapons WE sell them. And did you see the piece on Frontline.. we sell weapons to Pakistani government and they give it to the Pakistani Taliban to fight the Afghani government.. to cause trouble. We are fighting people with our own weapons. Sadly it has lead to so many deaths by people all over. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 9:26am
Larry you state this almost as official US policy; when in fact some American citizens are for the mosque and some against. Our laws in America are firmly behind having a mosque, as well as New York political officials.
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Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 10:00am
I am in total agreement here. Moreover, I wish ground zero post 9/11 would have been declared an official "crime scene" and the FBI given jurisdiction as oppose to an US military operation. Just think of all the lost lives, US credibility and depletion ( http://www.cnbc.com/id/38654017 - http://www.cnbc.com/id/38654017 ) of our economy over the past ten years could have been mitigated, not to mention untold suffering in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 12:08pm
| If the mosque is built, it better have tight knit security |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 1:28pm
| Do you really think passions run that high? I think most is just political posturing from the right, where Muslim bashing is in vogue. Once the average opponent of the idea doesn't see minarets hopefully the issue will fade away. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 2:03pm
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http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-update---ground-zero-mosque?xrs=share_fb - http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-update---ground-zero-mosque?xrs=share_fb ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 2:39pm
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Abuayisha,
Emotions run that high in Philadelphia. Unfortunately people are still hung up on 9/11. Now they can build the mosque but vandalism will happen. Maybe not the day of, or the next day but will happen. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 5:33pm
In this day of high tech surveillance who can getaway?...the days of burning crosses are history! I say it would go the same way as the Jewish Defense League met it's Waterloo! You know what its Irv Rubin a Canadian born Jew used to do  Irv and his despicable side kick Earl Krugel conspired to bomb King Fahd Mosque and congressman Daryle Issa offices in CA, three thousands miles away just as hate against the Arabs and other reason...Irv committed suicide in jail and Earl got killed in the big house by an inmate! What an appropriate end for two dedicated street thugs who roamed freely to terrorize peaceful Americans who had done not a thing except being Arabs or Palestinians or like and they thought they will get away with murder (they killed Alex Odeh a Palestinian Chritian by a booby-trap bomb)in the land of free. IMHO that is what the government needs to strangle what is left of the homeless right wingers! Last night Glen Beck had that (sawed off runt who is Jewish in disguise) Greg Gutfeld and he wants to create a gutter like environment around Cordoba Center by opening a gay bar next to it....Then he continued his gutter sniping on his own show adding Monica Crowley into the mix what a whoredom! It is was like pigsty! All I can say these fundies need to get their act together otherwise what happens is written on the wall! The New Rome is burning and they want to screw around a community center! I say let it be! the world has changed! The politics of this has literally sped up the destruction of the economy, both parties are causing more damage to the country that people care to realize! I think most Americans are helpless hostages ! http://www.marketwatch.com/story/reagan-insider-gop-destroyed-us-economy-2010-08-10?pagenumber=1 - Reagan insider: 'GOP destroyed U.S. economy'There was no American Muslim involved if the conspiracy theory is discounted why they should be made to feel guilty?The 911 trials need to get on pronto to see the truth otherwise don't talk about it. It's been almost a decade what are we waiting for? In the mean time almost 150,000 people have been http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders - murdered in the US! Where is the common sense? It is what it is the biggest red herring by the progressives for the Xtian Fundies and the whole thing is a ploy to pull some thing else! Just wait n see what comes next? ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 11:22pm
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http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-mcmanus-mosque-ground-zero-20100808,0,3666548.column - A mosque near ground zero: It's the wise choice Doyle McMANUS >>>>>>>>>>>>Back to New York for a moment. Abdul Rauf's less scrupulous critics charge, with no apparent evidence, that he's "linked" in some fashion to terrorists. Do they imagine that the http://www.latimes.com/topic/crime-law-justice/crimes/fbi-ORGOV000008.topic - FBI wouldn't have figured that out if it were true? His more scrupulous critics toss out broader political objections: He hasn't specifically condemned http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/hamas-ORCIG0000058.topic - Hamas ; he supported the seaborne protesters who sought to break the blockade of the http://www.latimes.com/topic/intl/gaza-strip-PLGEOREG0000028.topic - Gaza Strip ; he isn't a fervent supporter of Israel. One other complaint: Abdul Rauf hasn't revealed who all of his donors are.>>>There is more hilarious stuff to read in the full article! >>>>>>>>>>If the American Muslims are allowed to build mosques only where Christians and Jews are gracious enough to allow, we will be proving the Islamists' point that the West is every Muslim's enemy. If this mosque is blocked by popular prejudice or political demagoguery, that's when Bin Laden will claim a second victory � in the shadow, as they say, of ground zero. T hey are keeping the tab! http://www.alternet.org/story/147803/jihadist_web_site_uses_mass_baptism_of_marines_as_proof_of_christian_crusade_in_afghanistan - JUses Mass Baptism of Marines As Proof of 'Christian Crusade' in Afghanistan------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 1:09am
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Hayfa,
Your reply is typical of the massive denial among some Muslims who think that the horrors of 9/11 are balanced by wrongs done elsewhere, soft-pedaling the homicidal terrorists who kill while chanting "Allahu Akbar!" You think that it is up to the people in America to "forgive", when some Muslims still deny that extremist, homicidal Muslims had anything to do with 9/11. It's like I said, you and others can try and justify terror by merely switching to other things that are done against Muslims. The new "Cordoba" building is another example of total insensitivity to people who don't really need your advice on how they should "forgive" the people who committed and supported the acts that killed their loved ones. Many of the people had to jump from burning offices a thousand feet to their death. Does anyone comprehend the evil that is responsible for that? I think once the Muslim community starts acting like they want to have good and fruitful associations with other faiths and stop passing the buck when it comes to Islamic terrorist acts. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 1:14am
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"Ramblings?"
What you were trying to say in your latest post I have no idea. I gave up after the first two sentences. What was all that about? Government cover-ups? Like that is something new to ANY government. Next! |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 1:27am
|
It doesn't matter if "some Americans are for the mosque" or "as well as New York political officials" are OK with it. Rightly or wrongly it is simply another miscue by some Muslims who have no idea of the harm that a simple "mosque" will be to millions of Americans in the place that was selected.
The excuse given is that no other building site could be found and that it will be a place of mutual understanding between the Muslim community and Americans. But it will do nothing but create more bad feelings and if that is OK with the builders then they should go for it. But if they were to bite the bullet and actually show some understanding of the feelings of many Americans and discreetly move it to another location would go far to convince many people that the Muslim community is interested in good and cordial relations with all Americans. I'm not saying that it is necessarily right for many Americans to feel what they do, but regardless, they are going to have those feelings and it will just look like Muslim intransigence and lack of understanding of the feelings of many Americans. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 1:40am
|
"Do you really think passions run that high?"
Once again this is a complete misread of Americans and their feelings concerning the terrorist attacks of 9/11. This is not an "issue that will fade away." The attacks created the same sense of outrage and anger as did the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941. It will never "fade away" from American consciousness and the new mosque will create longstanding anger and mistrust. If the Muslim community expects all Americans to just "get over it" then it just shows how little they understand and their lack of sympathy with the feelings generated by the dispicable acts that took place on 9/11. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 9:07am
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I cannot believe I'm going to say this but I'm going to have to agree with Larry on one point. You cannot justify the anger for the political activities of one country. BUT you can sympathize with the anger and resentment of people who have been displaced unfairly (e.g. Palestinians) for a certain class of people such as European Jews. Do I understand why hijackers hijack a plane only to crash it in a building killing thousands? No. Do I understand the average sane person WANTING to hijack a plane and crash it into a building to be heard? Yes.
I think across American Islamophobia has died down significantly since 9/11 however New Yorkers have shown some resilience to the issue. A similar attitude is also shown in Temecula as I believe SignReader commented on. I heard a response on Youtube by one Muslim man that building a mosque there will prove Islam is peace. I chuckled. Not because of what he said but what his logic was. Reflections of peace are not determined by buildings or monuments but by the actions of people. Like I said before when I started commenting here. You can say Islam is peace until you turn blue, but you are talking about profound psychological affect across almost a decade of trauma. Not just on the local level but nationally. Not to mention the subliminal messages given to the nation by the media govt and our two wars. Come on ever see the back of a fire truck that says NYFD 9/11? These are resounding memories that will last and the last thing people remember are guys with "Muslim names" and their so-called religious leader Osama. People won't care to distinguish what is true Islam or fake Islam or true Muslim or not people care about the thing that is happening. Unfortunately society needs to re-educate itself on comparative religion. I don't think Muslims can soley educate society itself. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 11:05am
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"Once again this is a complete misread of Americans and their feelings ..."
Larry I think you're misreading my comments. Gibbs implied the proposed center would need tight security, in other words, someone may attempt some sort of vandalism, destruction or attack. I believe once the center becomes a reality those who oppose will not resort to such tactics.
Muslims are Americans also, and died on 9/11 along with fellow Americans, so "fade away" comment had nothing to do with the memory of tragic events on that day. There is little benefit or need to make this a polarizing issue.
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 3:26pm
The Rise of America's Idi.ot CultureThe Muslim Community Center at Ground Zero: a Manufactured ControversyCLICK ON THE AUTHOR!http://www.counterpunch.com/ - |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 3:38pm
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Aw, shucks, Gibbs, You do like me after all! ;-)
Actually I think Gibbs has made some very valid observations in his post. The effect on the national psyche of the events of 9/11 have caused short and long term difficulties. I really do think that Americans are, for the most part, people who can separate the actions of a few from those intent on inflicting as much pain as possible on as many Americans as possible. I think that the Muslim community can do a lot toward helping the American people understand that they do not, and never did, support in any way, these atrocities. But I also think that the Muslim community needs to show flexibility and compromise, along with expressing their feelings of understanding why many Americans are still so traumatized by the events. If establishing a peace between the two sides is the desired effect, perhaps the Muslim community can rethink the plans for the mosque at it's present future location. New York Governor Paterson has informed the builders that he will work with them, and the state also, in finding another less controversial but still eminently suitable location. I really believe that if this came to pass it would disarm the anger of the haters by removing the object of their complaints and would strike a chord with all fair-minded Americans that their concerns were understood and the Muslim community responded to those concerns is a positive and sympathetic way. As Gibbs said, you can't prove peaceful intentions with buildings, you do it by showing the humanity and efforts to achieve that goal by actions. I think that if the Muslim community demonstrated their peaceful intentions by changing the site of the future mosque/community center to a less controversial place the effect generated would be astonishing. It would forever mark a place where the two cultures came to a true understanding between themselves that resulted in a positive and mutually beneficial way. To jeopardize all this for the sake of a building site is simply not worth the everlasting negative effects that would be very hard, if not almost impossible, to erase. Abuayisha was absolutely right in the comment, "Muslims are Americans also, and died on 9/11 along with fellow Americans", and was very perceptive in the statement that, "There is little benefit or need to make this a polarizing issue." By demonstrating in concrete form (literally) the Muslim community can truly show itself to be large in spirit and gracious in it's actions to promote a truly peaceful reapproachment between the parties involved. Inshallah. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 4:24pm
| And "Sign*Reader" can, as usual, be counted on to provide inflammatory and completely unhelpful rantings and polemics that only serve to drive a spike of division into the heart of conciliation and mutual peace and understanding. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 7:08pm
Rabid right-wingers railed against it, especially those in the �stop the Madrassa� campaign (many of whom worried about the dangers of �Madrassa schools,� while apparently too ignorant to realize that the word Madrassa itself means school). 
http://www.counterpunch.com/ - http://www.counterpunch.com/
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 7:58pm
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Gibbs, I agree that there is anger and resentment. There is so much "rebel rousing" and hate stuff going on- sometimes by people from different sides, no one hears the middle ground. No one hears the Imams speaking against violence, the Muslims volunteering in soup kitchens, etc. There are lots of people of all faiths working to improve our communities. That is silenced or they are not the type to self-promote. The Muslims if they "self-promote" they are looked down upon. If they don't they get attacked. I saw a lecture by John Esposito from Georgetown University and it made sense that HE spoke about these issues as he was not Muslim. I think in this climate its a no- win situation. Hamza Yusuf tried this after 9-11 and stopped trying to be "public" and convince people. Those who don't know Muslmis think negatively, those who know Muslims don't as a whole.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 8:02pm
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Larry you are right that SOME people - not all cannot forgive. And if you want to blame Islam or Muslims then so be it. You want something from we Muslims, like for us to blame Islam and we won't do that. We say its bad people.
You say we Muslims don't get why people are upset and Muslims are upset you don't understand why people are angry at the US government. Those who cannot or are unable will be in their place.
I was raised Catholic quite strongly. And we were raised literally to turn the other cheek and to forgive people. I am very glad for those values. Not the values you have. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 8:16pm
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Another article:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/12/iftikhar.islamaphobia/index.html - http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/12/iftikhar.islamaphobia/index.html ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 9:54pm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/ - TomDispatch.comhttp://www.tomdispatch.com/ -
Tomgram: Stephan Salisbury, Extremism at Ground Zero (Again)
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 12 August 2010 at 10:22pm
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My understanding the building in question was owned by Muslim family business and that already had space for the Muslims for prayer! So what will change with new building...more jobs...Oh no they will have something attractive and that will proselytize the jobless Americans, I get it! In this climate of high unemployment giving whole bunch of construction jobs to the Americans seems is not part of the wingnut fundies plan ...Right? They want things should get really screwed up to the election day! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 13 August 2010 at 8:40am
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@hayfa
Exactly. That is why when I heard the comment on youtube where a Muslim said "building a mosque there will prove Islam is peaceful" I was astonished. Building a mosque, community center, or a KFC doesn't determine whether a religion is peaceful or not. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 13 August 2010 at 10:41am
I disagree, while a brick-building in itself has no purpose, but a Mosque being the center of communal activity can help build bridges and prove Islam is peaceful. I bet a lot of non-Muslims have never actually met a Muslim or actually know what they are all about. Those who are not filled with hate will have a chance to see how harmless Muslims are, coming to the mosque in all sorts of shape, sizes, colors, races - simply praying together and going about their business. For those who seem to think Muslims are all A-rabs, it should be a nice eye opener. They could have a "Bring a non-muslim to prayer Day" lol  . I think many Mosques in the USA encourage Muslims to bring non-muslims to the Mosque for Iftaar i.e. Fast-Breaking feast. Anyway, what I mean is, it could serve as a good learning and education centre. And if the Mosque management is creative and proactive, they could even show the religion is peaceful. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 13 August 2010 at 11:02am
Like this for example: http://muslimmatters.org/2010/08/12/muslimmatters-on-cnn-in-houston-chronicle/ - http://muslimmatters.org/2010/08/12/muslimmatters-on-cnn-in-houston-chronicle/ ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 13 August 2010 at 11:30am
Ok with all the muslims and the mosques in America do we still have discrimination? Yes so that point is null and void. Right Wingers cater to southern states and Bible belts and other classes of people who may have or have not met a Muslim. Just because you meet a Muslim doesn't gurantee it will be a positive encounter. In college when some imam spoke to our class he essentially told my class of 200 people that if we didn't convert to Islam we would go to hell. Now aside from learning the pillars of Islam how do you connect with people by using typical Christian behavior. Building a mosque near ground zero does not prove anything. There are thousands of .mosques and community centers across America. To glamorize this one is to assert that this will be some sort of unique mosque when the only unique thing is that its near ground zero. Yes with connecting with different religions and different people you can help, but muslims are fighting an uphill battle. You are not only fighting against the images of the terrorist on 9/11, but the continual images of terrorist claiming to do God's work. As my wife has explained to me Americans and New Yorkers suffer from a sort of post traumatic stress disorder. Yes average American may not walk into a psychiatric facility, but we as a nation are still concerned with terrorism and what religion is associated with terrorism? Islam. Of course I don't believe this but I'm referring to the stereotype. The day Americans on planes don't alert air marshals when Arab or Muslim passengers board planes or wear traditional garb is the day we can say its appropriate to build |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 13 August 2010 at 12:07pm
America is a huge nation, where Muslims are still a minority, so of course the current number of Mosques cannot deter or reduce this discrimination no matter how good an awareness programme they have. You cannot thus use these numbers as a performance measure. The Mosques and Muslim communities can only do their best within their territories or community blocks. I think that's a start, and a good stepping stone towards awareness. The whole point of it is interaction and increasing association b/w Muslims as a religious community and non-Muslims.
There is never a guarantee for anything. Of course you cannot guarantee a positive encounter, but you can at least enable it. Since Non-Muslims have a problem with the religious aspect of Muslims, the only way to reduce Islamophobia is to give them insight into the religious behavior and rituals of Muslims. One way to increase tolerance is by encouraging inter-cultural interaction. What better such interaction b/w Muslims and Non-Muslims than a religious community centre?
I didn't suggest that this Mosque would have anymore special powers than the next one. It just happens to be in that neighborhood. I was just disagreeing when you said that a Mosque does not prove/ or help prove Muslims are peaceful people. I think that any religious/cultural centre has that power. However one could argue that since this Mosque is right smack in the middle of New York, next to the towers whose fate is associated with Muslims and Islam - it is symbolically a good place to start the awareness with. If I want to make a statement about Islam, peace, 9/11 and prove otherwise, what better place to start with than near ground zero? Its like the Mosque is saying that Muslims and Islam are an important part of the community that was attacked on 9/11. They were victims too, they are a part of that community, not a separate entity... let alone 'responsible' for the atrocity.
True... and like Hayfa suggested; damned if we do, damned if we don't. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 13 August 2010 at 6:06pm
| Question. Does the outside look of your house indicate you pay your rent? |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 13 August 2010 at 6:24pm
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"As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," Obama said, weighing in for the first time on a controversy that has riven New York City and the nation. "That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable." Obama made the comments at an annual dinner in the White House State Dining Room celebrating the Islamic holy month of Ramadan. WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama on Friday forcefully endorsed allowing a mosque near ground zero, saying the country's founding principles demanded no less. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 August 2010 at 7:19pm
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"Came late, came right" I think, the building of the Mosque or any house of worship anywhere in the US should not be a problem. If it becomes a problem, it is a test to what America claim it stands for. Nothing more, nothing less. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |