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Are man really stronger then women?

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Topic: Are man really stronger then women?
Posted By: elijah-boy
Subject: Are man really stronger then women?
Date Posted: 06 June 2010 at 11:21am
I started reading things about Islam lately as before forming an opinion I'd like to get more information. I hope you can help me with a very basic questions.

1. I heard a thousand times that woman in Islam has to cover herself in order no to tempt the man. I was taking it for granted, but then I have this contradiction that I cannot solve - if man is stronger than woman in all aspects, then why is he provoked so easily?

2. If woman treated as equal in Islam - then why man don't cover themselves?

Thanks.
Elijah.



Replies:
Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 08 June 2010 at 4:52am
1> You're forgetting strength isn't just physical, but has a mental aspect to it as well, which if you ask me, is a factor more dependent on the individuality. Yes, generally men are physically stronger than women but that no way implies that it has to be the same when it comes to mentality and sexual provocation, and I'm sure you get what direction I'm heading at.

2> Does Hijaab applying only to women imply that women are submissive or inferior to men? Nope. The thinking here is actually the opposite. Hijaab is one of the many rights granted to Islamic women. The difference in the two types of thinking is, that you think of it as a burden to women, which isn't the case. Consider it as a gift -countless benefits, anyone?- specially to women. Modest clothing is worn in obedience to God and has nothing to do with submissiveness to men. Muslim men and women have similar rights and obligations and both submit to God.

Hope I was able to answer your question.


Posted By: elijah-boy
Date Posted: 08 June 2010 at 7:11am
:and I'm sure you get what direction I'm heading at.
--- Nope, I don't get it. Please be more specific. I still don't get the following:
1. Why is it always women's fault that men want to have sex
2. What's wrong with having sexual fantasies when looking at somebody (be it man, woman, or transsexual)

: Modest clothing is worn in obedience to God and has nothing to do with submissiveness to men.
--- Please note there is a contradiction between your statements:
a. You state that that man are easily provoked sexually and that is the reason why woman cover themselves, not men.
b. You state that the only reason wearing hijaab is to show obedience to god.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 08 June 2010 at 8:43pm
I agree wth xx.. men may be physically stronger- generally, this does not mean they are not weak.

I have no idea who you are chatting with but that opinion is very cultural. And often a one-dimensional argument.. that men are "stronger" then women. And women are "weaker" That often comes from people who use language out of context. I remember reading a book from a Masjjd about men and women translated. And it really was way off (IMHO). There are plenty of "weak" men and plenty of "weak" women. We all have some weakness or another.  Most people know plenty of weak men. I rarely heard this.

The better way to phrase it is that women ARE more vulnerable then men. We tend to be smaller and very vulnerable when pregnant. Are we women weaker? Heavens check out women who go through 30-40 hours of labor to give birth.  I think alot of women HAVE to be strong. I say we are more vulnerable yes, "weaker" no. 




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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 08 June 2010 at 10:54pm
^As she said.

And,
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

1. Why is it always women's fault that men want to have sex

That's the point. Its not. What makes you think its the women that are being blamed for men's provocation? To be specific, as I already emphasized in my previous post was not the case, what makes you think wearing Hijaab is a punishment of some sort handed to women? Smile

Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

2. What's wrong with having sexual fantasies when looking at somebody (be it man, woman, or transsexual)

To be very honest, you don't even have a need to bring Islam into this. Simple, practical and logical thinking answers this. What happens when you get sexually provocated, lol? Maybe some people manage to control. Countless rape cases, STD, AIDS, etc, anyone?

Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

--- Please note there is a contradiction between your statements:
a. You state that that man are easily provoked sexually and that is the reason why woman cover themselves, not men.
b. You state that the only reason wearing hijaab is to show obedience to god.

That, sir, is purely intentional. Not a contradiction is what I'd call it, rather a look at it from two different angles. In Islam, I convincingly believe that what the Almighty guides me to do is perfectly beneficial to me, the society around me and even the environment. That said, I predict it should be a little clearer to you now, that by wearing Hijaab, not only women obey God who encouraged this act -which is the primary aspect to it- but prevent sexual provocation and its harmful results as well, which is just the cause God has intended this act for.

And just out of the blue, lemme remind you that if in case you happen to be mistaken that weaing a veil is a really compulsory act and should be forced upon women or something, no. Its as I said, just a right which women have, they're perfectly free whether to choose it or not. Its just highly encouraged and an act of obeying God is always preferrable.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 6:56am
There are many aspects regarding hijab. Having more than reason does not make the contradictory. Women and men wear it in obedience to Allah. AND there are societal benefits.

1. Modesty (haya) is very central to Islam.The following hadith suggests that modesty is so important that the absence of it could lead a person to sinful behavior and disbelief: “The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘If you have no shame, do as you wish.’" (al-Bukhari)

Another hadith links modesty to faith: “The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘Faith consists of more than seventy branches. And haya (modesty) is a part of faith.’” (al-Bukhari) A more comprehensive example of haya can be found in the following hadith:

"Abdullah ibn Mas'ud relates that one day the Prophet said, 'Be shy of Allah (God) Most High as much as is His due.' The companions present said, 'All praise to Allah, we are shy of Him.' The Prophet said, 'That is not the point. Whoever is shy of Allah as much as is His due, he should protect his head and that which it comprises (i.e. mind, mouth, ears), his stomach and that which is adjoining it (i.e. preserve it from unlawful wealth and protect the private parts from the unlawful), and he should remember death and that which is to come after it; and whoever desires the Hereafter should abandon the adornments of this world. Whoever fulfills these duties has been shy of Allah as much as is His due.'" (Musnad Ahmad)

While modest behavior varies from person to person, guidelines do exist in the Qur’an and the Sunnah. The code of modesty for both men and women includes:

  • Lowering the gaze and avoiding flirtatious speech and conduct;
  • Avoiding close physical contact with unrelated members of the opposite sex;
  • Observing modest or Islamic dress according to the Qur’an and Sunnah;
  • Not drawing unnecessary attention to oneself.

If you go to most Muslim dominated areas both men and women are dressed quite fully. The only place I saw shorts in Pakistan was a few men playing futbol. Al men wore longs pants and top.

2. There is nothing wrong with sexual fantasies as long are they are about one's spouse- for men and women.  We have many desires, and they must be put into check to bring us to a higher spiritual plane.






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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: elijah-boy
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 7:17am
:Having more than reason does not make the contradictory.
--- It does if it reasons contradict one another.
 
:AND there are societal benefits
--- Do you think modesty will stop provoking men sexually?
 
 


Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 7:55am
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

:Having more than reason does not make the contradictory.
--- It does if it reasons contradict one another.

Huh? Hayfa and I just eleborated that point. You can't possibly say its a contradiction after reading this, lol;

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

There are many aspects regarding hijab. Having more than reason does not make the contradictory. Women and men wear it in obedience to Allah. AND there are societal benefits.

1. Modesty (haya) is very central to Islam.The following hadith suggests that modesty is so important that the absence of it could lead a person to sinful behavior and disbelief: “The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘If you have no shame, do as you wish.’" (al-Bukhari)

Another hadith links modesty to faith: “The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘Faith consists of more than seventy branches. And haya (modesty) is a part of faith.’” (al-Bukhari) A more comprehensive example of haya can be found in the following hadith:

"Abdullah ibn Mas'ud relates that one day the Prophet said, 'Be shy of Allah (God) Most High as much as is His due.' The companions present said, 'All praise to Allah, we are shy of Him.' The Prophet said, 'That is not the point. Whoever is shy of Allah as much as is His due, he should protect his head and that which it comprises (i.e. mind, mouth, ears), his stomach and that which is adjoining it (i.e. preserve it from unlawful wealth and protect the private parts from the unlawful), and he should remember death and that which is to come after it; and whoever desires the Hereafter should abandon the adornments of this world. Whoever fulfills these duties has been shy of Allah as much as is His due.'" (Musnad Ahmad)



Originally posted by xx__Ace__xx xx__Ace__xx wrote:

That, sir, is purely intentional. Not a contradiction is what I'd call it, rather a look at it from two different angles. In Islam, I convincingly believe that what the Almighty guides me to do is perfectly beneficial to me, the society around me and even the environment. That said, I predict it should be a little clearer to you now, that by wearing Hijaab, not only women obey God who encouraged this act -which is the primary aspect to it- but prevent sexual provocation and its harmful results as well, which is just the cause God has intended this act for.


And I wonder how can you claim two reasons actually supporting and interlinking each other to be a contradiction :/


Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

:AND there are societal benefits
--- Do you think modesty will stop provoking men sexually?

Orrrrr, are you telling me a women dressing and conducting herself in perfect modesty and Hijaab would somehow still provoke a man?! Wow. . . In that case such a man needs a serious medical check up, his sexual traits surpass those of a human.



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 10:32am
AND there are societal benefits
--- Do you think modesty will stop provoking men sexually?

No completely, no. There are people with ill intentions and bad thoughts all over. But it does help people get passed the "physical." But will it stop a man out to hard a woman? No. Because things like sexual assault and rape are NOT about sex. But about power.


 


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 4:12pm
Elijah,
and here is that common proof in the west if woman have more power to provoke man: I don't know where you live, but here in US if you ever bought anything at Walmart and got in line to pay for it, it is unlikely that you will miss those magazine covers with beautiful and exposed women.
don't tell me why?
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: elijah-boy
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 6:20pm
TO ACE:

:To be very honest, you don't even have a need to bring Islam into this. Simple, practical and logical thinking answers this. What happens when you get sexually provocated, lol? Maybe some people manage to control. Countless rape cases, STD, AIDS, etc, anyone?

---- That is middle-ages thinking. I'm not ready to discuss topics on that level. I appreciate your honesty though.




Posted By: elijah-boy
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 6:40pm
TO HAYFA:

:I agree wth xx.. men may be physically stronger- generally, this does not mean they are not weak.
--- Agree. I lived in 4 different countries and seen countless cases that prove that men are much weaker than women. I also believe that physical prowess is more on the woman's side. I've seen it countless times in yoga classes.
I also agree with that both sexes can be 'weak' depending on the situation they find themselves in.

Going back to original point:
Would it be correct to say that in your opinion men are more vulnerable to sex urges and in order to contain them women must dress modestly?









Posted By: elijah-boy
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 6:58pm
TO HAYFA:

:Because things like sexual assault and rape are NOT about sex. But about power.
--- If that was the case then there would be no sexual intercourse, at least in a lot of cases, as there are million other was to display power - beating up, torturing, forcing into 'slave games', and so on.


Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 10 June 2010 at 3:53am
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

---- That is middle-ages thinking. I'm not ready to discuss topics on that level. I appreciate your honesty though.

Well, to a question like "What's wrong with having sexual fantasies when looking at somebody", I could only answer that. This question I thought was pretty mediocre :/
Anyway, I see you didn't reply to the rest of the points, guessing they've been clarified for ya. I'm glad.
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

Going back to original point:
Would it be correct to say that in your opinion men are more vulnerable to sex urges and in order to contain them women must dress modestly?

Its not a one way procedure like you make it sound. Men may not wear Hijaab but they're strictly instructed to dress and conduct themselves modestly as well.

Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

TO HAYFA:

:Because things like sexual assault and rape are NOT about sex. But about power.
--- If that was the case then there would be no sexual intercourse, at least in a lot of cases, as there are million other was to display power - beating up, torturing, forcing into 'slave games', and so on.


I think there's a power factor majorly involved in rape, and that's probably what she was referring to.

rape 1
n.
1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.
tr.v. raped, rap·ing, rapes
1. To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
2. To seize and carry off by force.
3. To plunder or pillage.

What do ya think? Smile





Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 10 June 2010 at 5:34am
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:




Going back to original point:
Would it be correct to say that in your opinion men are more vulnerable to sex urges and in order to contain them women must dress modestly?


One of the reasons why Hijab is misunderstood is due to the individual's own perceptions. You are thinking like many nonmuslims that the sole purpose of Hijab is to contain the man's sexual urges . . . . which is not true. The Hijab will not "contain" the man's urges, but it will to a large extent dissuade those urges when they are unwelcome.

The benefits of Hijab are far more holistic than that ! Hijab is not just about sexuality . . . it is also about humility, modesty, simplicity. It is about character . . . it is a mindset.

Also, the Hijab benefits a woman (and women in general, in the society) more than it effects a man. It tries to shift the society's focus away from body-image, sexuality and appearances to more wholesome, constructive issues.

The Qur'an speaks of Hijab for the men before it speaks of Hijab for the women. BOTH are commanded to observe Hijab and are given a dress-code. Naturally - given their very obvious biological differences, the dress code is different for both.

 


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 10 June 2010 at 6:49am
:Because things like sexual assault and rape are NOT about sex. But about power.
--- If that was the case then there would be no sexual intercourse, at least in a lot of cases, as there are million other was to display power - beating up, torturing, forcing into 'slave games', and so on.

The reason it is NOT about sex is that men can get sex, they could buy it if it was about sex. They had the "urge." But clearly it has a whole other dimension that involved control and power and humiliation. Why in places of conflict they rape women. They rape it because it psychologically destroys the women and women are the backbone of any society.

I am assuming you are a man? They you are not understanding what rape does to a woman emotionally and mentally. Yes there is a "biological" component to rape but it all starts in the mind. There are plenty of willing women in the world. Why don't rapist choose them? 


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 10 June 2010 at 9:43am
Somehow, it feels to me its becoming a talk about gender differences to an extent > <

Regardless Elijah, of all the religions, Islam offers most rights to women. Don't forget it was established at a point in history when a baby upon being a female was buried alive, and only Islam played the role of diminishing this ridiculous practice.
So I've got news for ya, the belief that Islam discriminates against either gender is entirely false and baseless as far as I'm concerned. Wink


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 01 July 2010 at 5:52pm
Did I really read that having women cover themselves completely so as not to provoke/entice men is a "right" and not a just a dictate?  I think the real measure of what is a "right" is whether or not the person getting the right thinks it's a good thing or not.  Men and women having been trying to attract each other for millenia.  Men and women have also had to exercise control of there baser impulses for millenia.  Penalizing the woman for the man not being able to control his libido is like blaming the gun for the death of someone.  "I'm sorry your honor, that gun was just begging to be fired."    


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 02 July 2010 at 5:53am
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

  I think the real measure of what is a "right" is whether or not the person getting the right thinks it's a good thing or not.     


Exactly. Which is why non-muslims should not worry themselves too much about how they think "Hijab" is an oppression . . . how Muslim women perceive the Hijab is what matters.






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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 02 July 2010 at 5:29pm
I would agree totally that what Muslim woman think of the "Hijab" is more important than what you or I think of it.  Next I suppose I'm going to be getting some anecdotal evidence that Muslim women love the "Hijab" because they think it protects their virtue.  "Oh yes, I love to be covered from head to toe.  I'm really not interested in being able to where what I please in the name of comfort and utility."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 July 2010 at 10:12pm
As a man I can tell you that if you have not noticed, God has made woman finer in beauty, every detail (generally speaking) feel and look of skin, eyes, other features, hands feet, hair, shape of body and so many more has a special fineness to it than the man's. And no to mention those parts that in the west are exposed and used to sell various products.
Does that give you some idea yet?
In Islam both man and woman are to be moderate in public life as well. And since woman are blessed with attractions, that no one need to see other than their family.
And like believe in God is up to us to accept of reject with a consequence, so is all other teachings that come with accepting to live as God commands both for man and woman.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 03 July 2010 at 4:20am
Hi Schmibob,

I actually know plenty of women who like to wear it. They do it for their own individual reasons, That you may or may not agree with or like.  And yes for some, they  like to wear it cause they like not feeling like a "piece of meat. "  And maybe they have no interest in attracting other peoples' eyes. They like their privacy.

I know plenty of men who travel in the middle east who are are irritated they cannot see the women. And maybe those women are happy not being "seen" by them. That is hard to fathom in a society where this is not the case.



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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 03 July 2010 at 5:16am
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

  Next I suppose I'm going to be getting some anecdotal evidence that Muslim women love the "Hijab" because they think it protects their virtue.


No need for any anecdotal evidence, since Hijabi women know the reasons why they wear hijab . . . and the rest really don't matter like you said.
They don't need to know.


Quote "Oh yes, I love to be covered from head to toe.  I'm really not interested in being able to where what I please in the name of comfort and utility."


???

How do YOU know that what the Hijabi women wear doesn't give them comfort and utility ?

How do YOU know that Hijabi women are not able to wear what they want ? Did it occur to you that they WANT to wear what they do ?

I assume you mean the non-hijab ... fashionable clothing. Again, how do YOU know that they don't ? Muslim women have a whole different aspect/dimension to thier life that is private - which we don't feel strangers are privilege to.




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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 03 July 2010 at 6:40pm
I rather think it's more a function of what they are used to.  If that is all you know then you have nothing to compare it to.  This is very similar to when the Soviet Union broke up and former Soviet republic citizens came to live in the United States.  Many were absolutely shocked upon entering their first supermarket to find that were places on the planet that had more that a dozen items on the shelves and for excellent prices.  That was all they knew for their entire lives and so they assumed it was normal.
 
I also assume these rules were not established by women for women but by men for women.  Am I wrong?
  
 


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 03 July 2010 at 6:49pm
Also, what is the business about "lowering the gaze" and not "stamping the feet".  Are these also things that Hijabi women prefer?  I would find that very difficult to believe.  


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 10:30am
Well Schmikobob,

The same could be said for women here you hang their bodies out for everyone to see.. its "What they are used to." They are used to men staring at breasts. They are "trained" that their bodies are what they should emphasize and value.

You are right, m many, many Muslim women do not want their children to grow up in a society where half-nudity is the norm. I don't know why you seem to want these women to run around half-naked? Why can you not respect their choices. And why are you so patronizing as to think you know better than them what they should do?  Every society has rules and norms. For instance, men need to wear a shirt in stores. Its the norm. If a man does not like it tough. We have norms, other cultures have norms. In those cultures, where what you want in your private home, but dress decently outside of the home.

And yes, families DO decide. Just like my parents decided the rules in their house other families can do so. I was a nonMuslim as a child and there was no way we would be allowed to dress as people are today. So why should they not allowed to decide their standards?


And yes if you go to Pakistan, people are not naked. Yes people are "used to" wearing clothes. Men and women. It is true for men and women.This is true if you visit the Amish or the Hasidic Jews. People are not naked. Why not let them be?

And the rules were established by God, not men or women.

Lowering of gaze applies to men AND women. You seem to think its alright for men to stare at women like a piece of meat. Lowering your gaze is about not staring or seeking to entice. Not a bad idea.

A central core of Islam is Haya-Modesty. Both men and women should strive to be modest in actions and thoughts. It may not be something you value, so be it. But for others its important.

Oh, you make it sound like these people like in the backwater.. hah. You know there are more women in the maths and sciences in the Middle East than in the US? Many Saudis are rich and travel to Europe. You don't think they have TVS and satelite dishes? That Malaysia has a very high rate of literacy? In fact many Muslims have... computers!

Why not let others set their own standard. Just like they let you (our society) set out own.








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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 2:45pm
One big problem with majority is they think only women are restricted in Islam. Easily shows how they're one-sided about it, not a need required to waste time explaining, but as already pointed out, its not just women, but men too who are strictly told to lower their gaze and stuff.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 July 2010 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

I rather think it's more a function of what they are used to.  If that is all you know then you have nothing to compare it to.  This is very similar to when the Soviet Union broke up and former Soviet republic citizens came to live in the United States.  Many were absolutely shocked upon entering their first supermarket to find that were places on the planet that had more that a dozen items on the shelves and for excellent prices.  That was all they knew for their entire lives and so they assumed it was normal.
 
I also assume these rules were not established by women for women but by men for women.  Am I wrong?
  
 



Yes my friend you are wrong, these are rules not established by men or a women, because that will be man made rules, and that is not the case with Islamic teachings rather these are limits set by God. Rights, limits and obligations are God's terms and rules for both men and women to follow.

Hasan



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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 July 2010 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

Also, what is the business about "lowering the gaze" and not "stamping the feet".  Are these also things that Hijabi women prefer?  I would find that very difficult to believe.  



You see that Islam is a complete code of life, lowering the gaze and to not be stamping the feet are also God's commands not something associated just with Hijabi women prefer as you say.
24:30 (Y. Ali) Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
24:31 (Y. Ali) And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;..
...and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.
These are commands from our Creator, just like other commands like serve your Creator. I would invite you to read and understand the Quran, because a lot these issues you bring are indeed clearly answered in it.

Hasan



-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 6:59am
Such is always the case where faith trumps logic.  God told me to do it?!  Do I have that right?  I once asked a Catholic scholar why women could not be preists.  The answer was because Jesus did not have female apostles, the church could not.  This is not only faulty logic but has been used to justify millenium of bad reasoning . 
God told me to it is the same as "These are God's laws"


Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 3:06pm
I wouldn't bring Christianity in Islam if I were you, cuz unlike it everything in Islam makes sense to us muslims, nothing's "just cuz God said so" about it to me, its actually a belief that what God in Islam tells us is better for the mankind and the entire planet itself.


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 5:45pm
Your statement defies logic.  I'm pretty sure that most things in
Christianity makes sense to Christians.  "its actually a belief that what God in Islam tells us is better for the mankind and the entire planet itself" is another way of saying "I know God's will and it is this!".  All in all, pretty delusional.   


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

Such is always the case where faith trumps logic.  God told me to do it?!  Do I have that right?  I once asked a Catholic scholar why women could not be preists.  The answer was because Jesus did not have female apostles, the church could not.  This is not only faulty logic but has been used to justify millenium of bad reasoning . 
God told me to it is the same as "These are God's laws"



I don't see it as faulty logic, all practicing Muslims, Christians and Hindus I know of practice that, they lower their gaze, dress modestly and do a lot of things in common, only in Islam they are fulfilled completely. Those who follow these rules our maker has set for us, do see results. I can tell you among those who practice it, there is less immorality, sin and common sex crimes. Those who do not practice it you will see higher immoral behavior, sin and crimes.
Its like the place where you work, your boss sets his rules, if you obey them, he is happy with you, if you obey them with a higher degree he is more happy with you.  But when you start to challenge him, and break his rules by living by your own rules at his domain, at your work in this example, he is unhappy with you, he kick you out. Imagine if that was the only place, so once he kicked you out, you are all done.
Not an exact comparison but just to give you some idea to understand why it is important that a creation must know and obey its Creator.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 11:09pm
I'm sure you can produce some study to back up your claim that "I can tell you among those who practice it, there is less immorality, sin and common sex crimes. Those who do not practice it you will see higher immoral behavior, sin and crimes."  I would bet your evidence is anecdotal at best and I would also bet the real evidence shows absolutely no correlation.
 
Also, what if your boss sets rules that are against the law or, better yet, rules that are arbitrary or even prejudicial to, say, women, or blacks???  Do you follow them just because they are the bosses rules?  Following those kind of orders have gotten lots and lots of people into lots and lots of trouble down through the ages.  I think you need to work on a better analogy for something as lofty as why "a creation must know and obey it's creator".  What you know of what your creator wants of you has been given to you as hearsay from someone you never knew.  The same is true of all religions.   
 


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 10 July 2010 at 9:16am
I've said this before the problem is face veils, not veils in general.

Headscarfes to cover hair are fine if women want to wear them. But a veil is not required to prevent women from being looked at as a sex object as many Muslims would argue, because this is the problem of ignorant men – and foolish men should not be the reason for women to turn into faceless ghosts whenever they are in public. If anyone has to change it’s the men, not the women. When I look at women I see human beings, not sex objects. Good parenting is required to raise boys so that they become mature men. When I look at a beautiful women I see beauty. When women look at attractive men, they see beauty too. No big deal.

Dehumanizing people by taking their faces away is very wrong in my opinion. Facial expressions are a form of nonverbal communication. They are a primary means of conveying social information among humans. There are seven universally recognized emotions shown through facial expressions: fear, anger, surprise, contempt, disgust, happiness, and sadness. Regardless of culture, these expressions are the same.

Face perception is the process by which the brain and mind understand and interpret the human face. Mirror neurons help humans understand goals and intentions of other humans and many researchers argue that the mirror neuron system is involved in empathy. The human face’s proportions and expressions are important to identify origin, emotional tendencies, health qualities, and some social information. From birth, faces are important in the individual’s social interaction. Face perceptions are very complex as the face expressions involve vast involvement of areas in the brain. Sometimes damaged parts of the brain can cause specific impairments in understanding faces or prosopagnosia (Source: Wikipedia).

As I said there’s no problem for women wearing a headscarf either as a symbol for religion or to keep the head warm in winter. There is a problem with face veils and moderate Muslim women should come up with creative strategies to make this unfortunate tradition disappear. Face-hiding garments are wrong except when walking to the south pole or riding a motorcycle at high speeds.

Women should participate in public life, show their faces and have a significant influence in society. Showing their faces in private is not enough. Faces is what makes us human. As social creatures we rely on face perception. Therefore taking faces away is a way of dehumanizing people. To me a Burqa symbolizes a mobile prison. Not even the eyes are visible through the bars of the women’s tiny prison windows.

In Western countries we got dress codes too. In a city it’s not appropriate to run around naked and it’s also not appropriate to run around fully cloaked. This has little to do with religion. It’s a matter of culture and dress code. When Western women travel to Iran, for example as journalists, they respect the local dress code which means wearing a headscarf. This is okay. We should respect that. But we also want some respect when it comes to our culture and our dress codes in Western countries.





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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 4:07am
Originally posted by Matt Browne Matt Browne wrote:

I've said this before the problem is face veils, not veils in general.

Headscarfes to cover hair are fine if women want to wear them. But a veil is not required to prevent women from being looked at as a sex object as many Muslims would argue, because this is the problem of ignorant men – and foolish men should not be the reason for women to turn into faceless ghosts whenever they are in public. If anyone has to change it’s the men, not the women. When I look at women I see human beings, not sex objects. Good parenting is required to raise boys so that they become mature men. When I look at a beautiful women I see beauty. When women look at attractive men, they see beauty too. No big deal.

Dehumanizing people by taking their faces away is very wrong in my opinion. Facial expressions are a form of nonverbal communication. They are a primary means of conveying social information among humans. There are seven universally recognized emotions shown through facial expressions: fear, anger, surprise, contempt, disgust, happiness, and sadness. Regardless of culture, these expressions are the same.

Face perception is the process by which the brain and mind understand and interpret the human face. Mirror neurons help humans understand goals and intentions of other humans and many researchers argue that the mirror neuron system is involved in empathy. The human face’s proportions and expressions are important to identify origin, emotional tendencies, health qualities, and some social information. From birth, faces are important in the individual’s social interaction. Face perceptions are very complex as the face expressions involve vast involvement of areas in the brain. Sometimes damaged parts of the brain can cause specific impairments in understanding faces or prosopagnosia (Source: Wikipedia).

Matt Browne, you re-posted your previous post ?

Quote Women should participate in public life, show their faces and have a significant influence in society. 

Who says Veiled women do not participate in public life?

Participation in public life = showing our face ?

Showing our face = significant influence in society ?

Quote Showing their faces in private is not enough. Faces is what makes us human. As social creatures we rely on face perception. Therefore taking faces away is a way of dehumanizing people. To me a Burqa symbolizes a mobile prison. Not even the eyes are visible through the bars of the women’s tiny prison windows.

What gives you the prerogative to decide how much of my body (as a female) you have a "right" to see? Shouldn't that be my prerogative ?

How you perceive the Burqa has no meaning, influence or importance for the women who wear it. What matters is how they perceive it, and what it symbolizes for them. If for you a covered woman symbolizes a prison, and you view "freedom" as revealing the female body (to whatever extent) - then perhaps there is a problem with the way you perceive things. That's a rather narrow-minded approach.

Quote In Western countries we got dress codes too. In a city it’s not appropriate to run around naked and it’s also not appropriate to run around fully cloaked.

So you are saying that 'running around' fully clothed is the same as running around naked ? i.e. socially undesirable behavior ? Well, nowadays people are becoming more relaxed and tolerable towards nudity, I wish they would show the same courtesy and tolerance to the fully-cloaked.

Quote   But we also want some respect when it comes to our culture and our dress codes in Western countries.

So you believe that the Western countries should have a right to dictate the minimum amount of body-flesh that should be exposed . . . just because Iran enforces a dress-code ?



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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 4:23am
Originally posted by Matt Browne Matt Browne wrote:

Dehumanizing people by taking their faces away is very wrong in my opinion. Facial expressions are a form of nonverbal communication. They are a primary means of conveying social information among humans. There are seven universally recognized emotions shown through facial expressions: fear, anger, surprise, contempt, disgust, happiness, and sadness. Regardless of culture, these expressions are the same.

Face perception is the process by which the brain and mind understand and interpret the human face. Mirror neurons help humans understand goals and intentions of other humans and many researchers argue that the mirror neuron system is involved in empathy. The human face’s proportions and expressions are important to identify origin, emotional tendencies, health qualities, and some social information. From birth, faces are important in the individual’s social interaction. Face perceptions are very complex as the face expressions involve vast involvement of areas in the brain. Sometimes damaged parts of the brain can cause specific impairments in understanding faces or prosopagnosia (Source: Wikipedia).



Today's age of technological innovation and advancement shoes how depending on "facial expressions" is a thing of the past. And that Humans, bieng higher evolved species have the uncanny ability to communicate & interpret signals/communication without having to "See" the face of the person they are communicating with. Huge multi-national corporations, operating across borders, cultures, and language barriers manage to do just fine without facial communication. In fact those that are still fixated upon having direct face-to-face contact like you suggest - wouldn't fare well in such an environment

People are relying less & less upon facial contact . . . Emails, Chats, SMS, Voice-Conferencing, Phones etc etc etc. Yet they still want Muslim women to reveal their face because they suddenly become unable to communicate effectively ? ? ? ?  

Mind you - communication is also a two-way street. Both parties should be willing to communicate using the same media. Just because some people want to "facially communicate" with a Veiled Woman, while she clearly doesn't wish to . . .  the law should force her to expose her face and make her use the same medium as you ?




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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: I♥Jesus
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 9:07am
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsGhcxi">

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If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 9:54pm
Chrysalis I am sure you can relate... when I was in Pakistan I did not find the women in a full-face veil lacking assertiveness!  Some can be quite assertive!

I think for people who have only lived here, it IS hard to comprehend that people make it work. I used to wonder to.. but its odd.. people do manage it just fine.

I think with the exception of a few specific situations, people co-exist quite fine. And the women who want to wear it, also choose the extent of their interactions.

Have you ever seen the video made on this Saudi female gynecologist. She did her job- full face veil and all.. And she's a doctor. She met with families- both men and women. Seemed to work for her and the others involved.  

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Beechlgz
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 1:22am
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:



The Qur'an speaks of Hijab for the men before it speaks of Hijab for the women. BOTH are commanded to observe Hijab and are given a dress-code. Naturally - given their very obvious biological differences, the dress code is different for both.

 


Sorry to bring up an old point but I don't understand this part and posting a new topic would be kind of spammy...

A woman should keep her torso covered, that I can agree with. But a man doesn't have to. See, that's the part that doesn't make sense to me. A man's naked torso can be incredibly arousing or intimidating to anyone who might happen to catch a glance. Women especially, since it can evoke sexual feelings that are unwanted even by the woman experiencing them. It also allows the man to bear his muscles which, again, makes people feel uncomfortable or awe stricken and is parallel to female beauty.

It doesn't sound all that modest to me when men are allowed to go about with a naked torso. It's just as bad as a woman going about topless.

Can someone please explain to me why this is considered fine and dandy?


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 July 2010 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

I'm sure you can produce some study to back up your claim that "I can tell you among those who practice it, there is less immorality, sin and common sex crimes. Those who do not practice it you will see higher immoral behavior, sin and crimes."  I would bet your evidence is anecdotal at best and I would also bet the real evidence shows absolutely no correlation.
 
Also, what if your boss sets rules that are against the law or, better yet, rules that are arbitrary or even prejudicial to, say, women, or blacks???  Do you follow them just because they are the bosses rules?  Following those kind of orders have gotten lots and lots of people into lots and lots of trouble down through the ages.  I think you need to work on a better analogy for something as lofty as why "a creation must know and obey it's creator".  What you know of what your creator wants of you has been given to you as hearsay from someone you never knew.  The same is true of all religions.   
 



What can be better study than the one you observe with your own eyes, around you. Look around and you will find as I did, Christians, Hindus, Muslims and others of faith that follow their teachings, staying away from bad talk, bad behavior, and bad conduct and living more meaningful lives than those who do not follow any structured lifestyle.
I am not seeking your approval for what I do, or those who follow a structured way of life.
It is ignorant of you to say: " What you know of what your creator wants of you has been given to you as hearsay from someone you never knew.  The same is true of all religions.  "
I do not know how you can deny that the one who gave you abilities to think, talk, walk, see, listen and more cannot guide you to how to use them. I cannot deny that, and believe that my creator did not create me for nothing, nor that the Creator left me after creating me and is unaware of me. I believe, it is these abilities that I use to reason and find logic in figuring my place. I believe that my Creator provided us instructions through teachers so we all can serve our purpose in a more meaningful way. For me, and those like me this is natural, while for someone like you it does not make sense, I don't want to guess why?
The boss example was simply to show you that when you work for a company or a boss, you follow what the boss or the company tells you, when you break their rules or refuse to follow intrustions, and try to do you own way rather, you know where you get kicked! nothing more, nothing less is what I am trying to say, simply.

Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 July 2010 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Beechlgz Beechlgz wrote:



Sorry to bring up an old point but I don't understand this part and posting a new topic would be kind of spammy...

A woman should keep her torso covered, that I can agree with. But a man doesn't have to. See, that's the part that doesn't make sense to me. A man's naked torso can be incredibly arousing or intimidating to anyone who might happen to catch a glance. Women especially, since it can evoke sexual feelings that are unwanted even by the woman experiencing them. It also allows the man to bear his muscles which, again, makes people feel uncomfortable or awe stricken and is parallel to female beauty.

It doesn't sound all that modest to me when men are allowed to go about with a naked torso. It's just as bad as a woman going about topless.

Can someone please explain to me why this is considered fine and dandy?
[/Quote]

Hello Beechlgz.

In most societies, compared to a female - the male physique is not as associated with sexuality or considered a sex-symbol. Whether we like it or not - society views the male and female body differently. Even nowadays in liberal societies such as the West - measures of nudity are different for men and women. While it would be considered fine for a man to have a bare torso - a female with the same amount of exposed flesh will be looked at, and treated differently. Most societies do not tolerate that kind of bodily exposure. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) that's how things are, that's how we as human's react.

So the majority of people should have no problem with different standards of "dress code" for men and women. Yes of course a Man can be considered handsome by women and evoke certain feelings - which is why muslim women (like the men) are not supposed to stare at men, and lower their gaze if a brazen thought should occur. You will perhaps agree that women will almost never express their "admiration" for the opposite gender in an aggressive or vulgar manner (majority). We have heard of "Eve-teasing" - but not "Adam-Teasing" . . . so even if a woman does look at a male torso, the reactions are poles apart.

Also - this dress code is the bare minimum for a man. It doesn't mean Muslim men go around shirtless. You might have noticed that in most muslim cultures, the men are just as covered as the women despite the leniency in the dress code. Muslim cultures generally speaking are shy & modest when it comes to exposing the body. If you look at the typical male dress for an Arab, Pakistani or Malay man - you will notice that they don't even wear half-sleeves ! They are just as covered as the women, including head-gear.

So it doesn't seem unfair at all. While men have been blessed with beauty as well, it is usually the female-form that takes stage when we talk about beauty, sensuality etc.

Its not something that pertains to Islam specifically - it is more of a general , common-sensical thing.




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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 July 2010 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Chrysalis I am sure you can relate... when I was in Pakistan I did not find the women in a full-face veil lacking assertiveness!  Some can be quite assertive!


Very much so ! If non-muslim men (and women) were to have a peek inside muslim households they would probably be surprised to see what a dominant role muslim women can (& do) play in the family. Some can even be downright bullies !

Quote
Have you ever seen the video made on this Saudi female gynecologist. She did her job- full face veil and all.. And she's a doctor. She met with families- both men and women. Seemed to work for her and the others involved.  


No I haven't. But I have seen one of a Saudi journalist who wears the Niqab. She let a team inside her house. Its on you-tube. There was also a veiled pilot in the Saudi !
 


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 16 July 2010 at 4:17pm
A man's naked torso can be incredibly arousing or intimidating to anyone who might happen to catch a glance.

Well... are you a man or woman? Just curious. Cause most men when they pull up their shirt to wipe their face are not all that appealing.. Unless you are a male model, most women WILL be able to avert her eyes..

On a note of HUMOR by Dave BarrySmile

Men's magazines often feature pictures of naked women. Women's magazines also feature pictures of naked women. This is because the female body is a beautiful work of art, while the male body is lumpy and hairy and should not be seen by the light of day. Men are turned on at the sight of a naked woman's body. Most naked men elicit laughter from women.


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 16 July 2010 at 4:18pm
Very much so ! If non-muslim men (and women) were to have a peek inside muslim households they would probably be surprised to see what a dominant role muslim women can (& do) play in the family. Some can even be downright bullies !

Ahh yes. And really most trouble with new brides is not the Father in Law but the Mother in Law. The houses I was in the women ran the show. Yeah there were a few men. But it was quite matriarchal. Mamma's rule!


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Beechlgz
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 6:33am
I guess my own personal experience is very different, yes where I am from "Adam-Teasing" as you put it is everywhere (not that I agree with it, I don't agree with it for either sex) and yes it is usually very aggressive and vulgar behaviour by the women as well as the men.

Quote which is why muslim women (like the men) are not supposed to stare at men, and lower their gaze if a brazen thought should occur.


I agree with that but in some cases that means you can't look anywhere! Or you can't watch where you're going... :( because there's topless men everywhere on hot sunny days.

Quote Well... are you a man or woman? Just curious. Cause most men when they pull up their shirt to wipe their face are not all that appealing.. Unless you are a male model, most women WILL be able to avert her eyes..


I am female. I am speaking from my own personal experience. It's not just unwanted arousal I have to contend with (which often leaves me feeling disgusted with myself, even looking away doesn't erase the mental image), as I said it's also the intimidation and feeling of inadequacy. I find myself comparing muscles and feeling weak. Not saying it's a bad thing for a guy to have muscles, but that it is intimidating and can affect how safe I feel when it's all on display like that... like he's showing it all off because he's readying for a fight or something. I'd imagine the feeling would be similar for a man who glances at another topless man.

I don't know, maybe I am just more attracted to the male body than most women? Is it a malfunction in my brain? Confused Is it because I am quite masculine myself?

It is nice to hear that in many Muslim countries common sense is still applied and that men are as modest as women in most cases.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 8:18pm
Hi Beech,
I lived in Pakistan and except once, I never say the legs or torso of any man in Pakistan. Its just not proper...


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi



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