Kashmir
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Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: General Discussion
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1687
Printed Date: 17 May 2024 at 8:26pm
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Topic: Kashmir
Posted By: ZamanH
Subject: Kashmir
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 10:23pm
------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Replies:
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 10:25pm
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Just in case, anyone is interested, I think plebiscite should be held
in Kashmir. I have met 23 Kashmiri men in all, and they all want
secession from India. 2 Kashmiri pandits that I have met, dislike
the militants but not the Kashmiris themselves. According to
credible newspapers here, more people in urban areas than those in
rural areas of Kashmir, want to join/accede to India. India does not want to give up Kashmir, because it fears that will encourage seccionists in other regions and also, because it will lose a lucrative tourist destination. Pakistan lays its claim on Kashmir on the basis of two-nation theory,i.e, Hindus and Muslims can't live together in peace and thus, should separate as much as possible. Indian army has earned the ire of the Kashmiris for their ruthless suppression of the Kashmiri separatists (they can't be called freedom-fighters, unless, it is known for sure, that Kashmiris do want to separate). Kashmiris seem to support the separatists. Also, living in India, as a Muslim, I have many Hindu friends (although, most of my friends are Muslims), but considering the behaviour of other Hindus and Muslims (Babri Masjid demolition, Godhra carnage and Gujrat riots), two nation theory is not as ill-founded as Indians make it out to be. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 11:36pm
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But what will our grand Hang Low Sexnon lords do once this issue is sorted out? They create problems just to lord over their solutions and for gaining advantages from the concerned parties. Just a short, simple great post! |
Posted By: beloved
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 7:06am
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Being an Indian, I too sympathise with the people of Kashmir. I
don't even want a plebescite. I would be happy if Indians leave
Kashmir and live happily ever after. But Zaman, you are entirely wrong when you say that, leaving Kashmir would "encourage sessionists". Can you please tell me who are these "sessionists"? And do you know how much revenue India gets from Kashmir? -8000 crore rupees per annum + lives of many fellow Indians. So forget about "lucrative tourist destination". And Zaman, what do you mean by two nation theory? Its a very old concept of the British. It never existed with Hindus or Muslims. You talk about Gujarat riots and Babri Masjid. Babri Masjid is the only masjid Hindus demolished. And Gujarat riots are the only one bad thing done by the Hindus. And the whole nation condemns them. No one loves a murderer. Muslims in India are much more happier than Muslims in Islamic republics. It seems like this guy Zaman wants another partition of the country on communal grounds. Remember, President of India is a Muslim, who has the whole of the defence at his command. There is no need of any "sessionism". |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 8:49pm
By secessionists I mean insurgents fighting in the North-East part of India. Which like Kashmir was also neglected by the central govt. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
beloved wrote:Posted By: Saido
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 9:36pm
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Asalamu Alaykum I wish that there is a way to stop all this violence and get peace. |
Posted By: beloved
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 10:56pm
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Have you ever been to the North-East Zaman? And do you know what
the "sessionists" in the North-East are fighting for? They are
fighting for a separate state and not separate nation, just like the
Andhra-Telangana issue. The media blows everything out of proportion. And first know what is happening in the country and then comment on it. And beware, the central govt. never neglected the North-East. Can I know where you met those "23 Kashmiri men" and those "2 Kashmiri pundits"? |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 10:26pm
Are you "Bhartiya" (that is a nick of a member), by the way?? Even if( and that is a big "if") they are not fighting for secession and they central govt. doesn't want them to be encouraged.
Of course, http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/7434/ulfa.htm - Central govt. did neglected the North-East , you better check yourself. I met the 1 Kashmiri Pandit in college when I was in class 12 and the other while I was travelling in a train. Kashmiris, I have been meeting, not all at once, some come to sell clothes, some I met in college others here and there. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: beloved
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 12:18pm
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I am new to the forum and so I don't know much about the members here.
The site you have given is not at all an official site. Its some bakwaas. There is an interesting news rounding the web about a reported double agent in our security forces. Just look at this, http://kashmir.freewebpage.org/kashmir.html - "The Truth about Kargil" . These are all bakwaas. So you haven't been to Kashmir anytime. People in IOK are having a better life than in POK. Whatever it may be, it is an occupied territory. So its a hell to be there. May I know where you stay in India brother? |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 9:01pm
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I am living in Bangalore, my parents are from Bhopal, M.P. What about you?? ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: Saido
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 9:35pm
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Asalamu Alaykum ZamanH and beloved It is clear that the both of you have much differences about this issue.Instead of arguing publicly why don't you try to privately email each other Insha Allah. I don't mean to intrude nor offend but I think that will be better Insha Allah. |
Posted By: human
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 9:42pm
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Hello ZamanH, You signature includes the line: There will be more women in hell than men. Can you please elaborate on this quote from Koran? It is true that Indian government has ignored Kashmir and many other border states. If there was a strong economic development, there was never a cause for uprising. Idle minds are the devil's workshop and this is more so with youth. Far too long, Indian government has neglected the frontier states, and that's such a short sighted approach. We need to strengthen our borders first and foremost and a happy populace is the first step. Lot of discontent is economic in origin rather than religious. There are lots of good reasons why entire Kashmir should merge with India or Pakistan or attain independence. In my opinion, status quo will prevail and the sooner all parties realize this, the better. That way people of the valley can live in peace and attain their true potential. Regards, Human |
Posted By: beloved
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 6:40am
Zaman brother I am from Hyderabad. This guy human has given us a very humanistic solution for the Kashmir problem. May be he doesn't know the meaning of freedom ('cos he lives in america). 
Human you should understand the psyche of a Kashmiri. If Indians believed in a status quo with the British, then they would never have got independence. But Zaman brother why do you think that the two nation theory is still valid with regard to the present day India? Do you like to have another partition of the country? All communities in India have been living together happily except for some stray incidents of communal riots. But not only the minorities, but the people of majority community were also killed. O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female; And We have made you tribes and sub-tribes that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable among you, in the sight of Allah, is he who is the most righteous among you. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware. 49:13 I would say that India is the best example for the above verse. |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 8:19pm
ITs not in the Quran.
LEt the Kashmiris decide for themslves, I am not even asking for secession, I only want a plebiscite to be held there. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 8:25pm
No, not at all. I don't want partition. That is not practical. But I still believe Hindus and Muslims cannot live in peace together. I don't have anything personally against the Hindus. I have many HIndu friends. But considering the behavior of other HIndus and the Muslims, two-nation theory does seem to be right. I mean, earlier I used to think that Partition of 1947 was wrong; but now, I think, it was inevitable; if it hadn't happen then, it would have happenned later. BY the way beloved, are you Muslim?? ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: human
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 10:57pm
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Actually, I was not proposing status quo as a solution. I am just being practical. Before a plebiscite can be held, all three Kashmirs (yes, there is a small chunk held by China) need to be brought together, all the pundits resettled in the valley. Do you really think that's going to happen anytime soon? It is no more a question of right or wrong, but that of political reality. I believe that India had a great opportunity during 60s and 70s to settle the Kashmir issue once and for all. Nehru and Gandhi made major mistakes by not developing the valley and Jammu region economically and let the kashmiris integrate fully with India. Kashmiris were always peaceful people and the problems didn't start until late 80s and early 90s. India has another chance now that she is on the ascendent and Pakistan on the defensive. I am not suggesting any aggressive actions here. Just develop the infrastructure and communications, increase border trade with China and Pakistan and provide more autonomy to Kashmir. This three pronged approach should work. Human |
Posted By: human
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 10:59pm
I stand corrected. What does your signature imply? That women are inferior to men? Human |
Posted By: beloved
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 6:47am
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I am a Hindu brother, atleast for he sake of census. No, not at all. I don't want partition. That is not practical. But I still believe Hindus and Muslims cannot live in peace together. Are you talking about India or some other country brother? How can you say Hindus and Muslims cannot live in peace together? If you are talking about India, then you yourself know that its completely wrong. And if you think you are correct, then what is the practical solution you think will solve the problem? But considering the behavior of other HIndus and the Muslims, two-nation theory does seem to be right. How many such "other HIndus and Muslims" do you think exist in India? May be a few lakh such Hindus and a few thousand such Muslims. There are 800 million other Hindus and 150 million other Muslims who have been living together peacefully and are still living peacefully. If you go by those "other HIndus and Muslims" then you will be a fanatic just like they are. The two nation theory is very old and has nothing to do at present. We will always live happily together, don't we brother?  |
Posted By: beloved
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 7:56am
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Feelings matter more than the material gains human. Kashmiris consider Indians as occupiers, so even if we do everything we can, there will be no change in their feelings towards Indians. |
Posted By: Saido
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 10:18am
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Asalamu Alaykum Okay I am confused about what is going on in Kashmir between the Muslims and the Indians Can someone explain please. Jazakullah. |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 7:29pm
I believe women are more selfish than men. There are exceptions though, but that is just my view. I can defend it but will not do it on this thread. Its just my belief, whoever, wants to accept or reject is their choice. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 7:36pm
There is no solution. Interestingly, I am seeing Hitler becoming popular among some Hindus. I can't help wondering, if its because, they also dream of "Final Solution"???
In my heart, I strongly wish the same, but, ground realities will have to be kept in mind.
I can only promise, from my side I will try my best. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: beloved
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 8:46pm
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Tell you, are you an Indian and do you really live in Banglalore. 90% of Hindus live in villages and don't even know who Hitler is. And i told you that if there are, there are only few, very few such people. But I want to know who these Hindus are who like Hitler. In my heart, I strongly wish the same, You need not wish for the one which already exists. but, ground realities will have to be kept in mind. Can you please tell me the ground realities my brother? I can only promise, from my side I will not attack first. Why do you think someone will attack you? People killed each other in Mumbai long time ago when we were kids and two years ago in Gujarat, and mind you not all parts of Gujarat. And India is a very big country in which Mumbai and Gujarat are very small places comparitively. Please tell me what you really want. Do you want us Hindus to convert to Islam or a so called "Hindu race" to become extinct? |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 8:59pm
Modi and liikes of him. They stupidly admire Hitler because he glorified the Aryans.
There are many. Most of the Indians are not extremists, but they do have a fluctuating mindset. Its possible that majority (both Hindus and the Muslims) might shift to extremists viewpoint, simply because of sheer excitation(or incitation).
I admit, I was wrong to say that. As you can see it in my earlier post, I had corrected it. But you replied too soon. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: human
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 12:17am
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On the contrary, the thoughts towards radicalism is strongest amongst disillusioned youth. The exceptions that we are seeing to that general observation today in many suicide bombers proves the rule. Unemployed and underemployed youth tend to take to militancy. I don't dispute that Indian Kashmiri population has been disgrantled historically. However, Pakistan's meddling and fishing in the troubled waters made the matters much worse. Militancy was not home grown, but imported and then stoked with support from local population. However, I agree with you that India has a place for muslims and Kashmiri muslims as well. They have given a lot to India and India has something to offer in return. India has been enriched beyond comprehension by all the migrations that took place since Alexander the great. And she has enriched those who have come to stay. I am sure Kashmiris will find lots of unexplored riches within India, once they decide to move beyond the valley. And Indian government and people can and should make it happen by going more than half way. Human |
Posted By: beloved
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 6:27am
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Modi and liikes of him. They stupidly admire Hitler because he glorified the Aryans. I have told you brother, Modi is a single man. BJP does not exist as it existed three years ago. Few Hindus know that Hitler glorified Aryans. And for that matter, German Aryans are totally different from Hindu Aryans. There was neither any invasion nor any migration of Aryans to India. Hindus are indigenous unlike the Muslims (even Kashmiri Muslims are migrants). So their is no link between us and some Aryan race. So forget about admiring Hitler. There are many. Most of the Indians are not extremists, but they do have a fluctuating mindset. Its possible that majority (both Hindus and the Muslims) might shift to extremists viewpoint, simply because of sheer excitation(or incitation). These statements completely prove that you are not an Indian and even if you are, you are definitely not from Bangalore. Don't say such statements even to an Indian Muslim, he will kick you out of India. Be brave brother, you are a Muslim. The very meaning of Muslim means "the one who has submitted himself to God and whose belief is intact" and not one who has submitted himself to the society or his own feelings. (just for the sake of Muslims, Vande Mataram was not made our National Anthem because it means "I bow to thee, Motherland") I admit, I was wrong to say that. As you can see it in my earlier post, I had corrected it. But you replied too soon. One hour is too soon.  But you want to attack us Hindus.  Anyway, God knows best. Satyameva jayate Ahimsa paramodharma |
Posted By: beloved
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 6:36am
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Human, I don't know whether you are an Indian or not, if you are not, thanks for your concern towards Indians. Their is another dimension of militancy, which I think that is the real cause of hell in Kashmir, which I do not want to discuss here because this a religious forum and not a political forum. I am sure Kashmiris will find lots of unexplored riches within India, once they decide to move beyond the valley. They just don't want to brother. |
Posted By: Saido
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 8:04am
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Can you please explain to me the situation in Kashmir.
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Posted By: human
Date Posted: 08 August 2005 at 9:35pm
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Excellent series of articles in Pakistani newspaper Dawn on Kashmir issue resolution: http://www.dawn.com/2005/06/07/op.htm - http://www.dawn.com/2005/06/07/op.htm http://www.dawn.com/2005/06/28/op.htm - http://www.dawn.com/2005/06/28/op.htm http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/05/op.htm - http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/05/op.htm http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/12/op.htm - http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/12/op.htm http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/19/op.htm - http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/19/op.htm http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/02/op.htm - http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/02/op.htm http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/09/op.htm - http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/09/op.htm Human |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 16 August 2005 at 8:48am
First of all Human, I greatly admire your objective and neutral interpretation of the situation in Kashmir. But I do disagree with you that unemployment is the cause of men taking to suicide bombing. There are lots of discrepancy in that. Remember that all the 18 9/11 hijackers were accomplished professional and had a bright future ahead of them. Usama bin Ladin came from a well-off family. Maybe, most suicide bombers take to suicide bomibing out of frustration, but, certainly, not all (those who don't are in significant proportion). If you don't mind, can you tell me if you are a Muslim?? ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: human
Date Posted: 17 August 2005 at 4:30am
Thanks for your compliment. I admire your posts too, we need more of the level headedness and polite discourse. I am a Hindu by the way, but that shouldn't matter. I think we can find common ground in kashmir. Many muslim communities live peacefully and in relative prosperity within India. If we work together to develop Kashmir's economy, infrastructure and education, I think it will have a happy ending. India has welcomed and assimilated many cultures over several millennia. Islam is no exception. Instead of being the bone of contention between India and Pakistan, Kashmir can become the gateway for trade, travel and cultural exchange and for even better things in our life times. I am a die-hard optimist. Human |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 17 August 2005 at 6:08am
Let me put it this way - I envy your optimism. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 8:13pm
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By the way Human, have you read the Quran??
------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: human
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 9:16pm
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Not much. I have read some verses at random, but it is difficult to read it, because either the translation is not good, or in general such books are boring. I have also tried to read the bible, and every time I try it, I get bored to tears. I guess I need somebody's interpretation which is more interesting and better explains the concepts better. Human |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 9:32pm
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I hope http://www.islamworld.net/UUQ/1-a.txt - this helps. I will send you more links, but i have got to go now. Bye ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 9:34pm
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And also, http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/ - this . I wish you good health and best of luck, Zaman. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 19 August 2005 at 10:43pm
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and this too. I made a mistake posting it here. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |
Posted By: human
Date Posted: 19 August 2005 at 11:15pm
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Thank you Zaman for your concern. I will attempt to read the links you have posted when the time permits. I did not want to get involved in discussions on faith, because I have done it many times already, and invariably it leads to acrimony and the theme that I am trying to present gets lost. Since, you are so concerned about my well being, I would go out on a limb and explain my stand on religion. I beleive religion is a very personal matter. Personal, not in the sense that I want to keep it private. Personal in the sense that my communication with God is a very unique and intimate. I choose my own way to realize God. I do not believe God will ever send any other human beings to communicate with me or anybody else. If God is what everybody says IT is, then IT does not need ITs own creations to communicate with us. For me morality is a human concept. Justice is a human concept. These essentials of humanity are not to be derived from any books or scriptures that were written thousands of years ago. By definition, "holy" books like Quran are static because they are immutable. Such philosophy is not for me. I would like to think that morals change along with times and circumstances and this has borne out by many passages within Quran itself (Prophet marrying more than four wives, prophet marrying a little girl of nine, God tolerating slavery, if not outright approving it). If there is any reason at all for me to turn to religion, it is the spirituality. Spirituality is what connects us to the others in this world and perhaps God. Historically, saints of all religions made major discoveries regarding our spiritual nature and fortunately or unfortunately their wisdom is hidden in obscure texts and practices. It is my endevour to read those texts and find the true meaning of spirituality, meditation, true nature of self etc. I totally reject the concept that a man is a sinner by nature. I reject the concept that God keeps account of all the goods and evils that I do and will reward or punish me accordingly on some future date. I believe that God is beyond all such descriptions and human nature. In fact I believe God is not even sentient in the sense that you and I are, but a cosmic consciousness that has always existed and guides the time and space according to some yet to be discovered rules. For the same reasons I reject any rituals that I have to perform in order to reach "Jannat" I must do this or that ritual (such as fasting, pilgrimage, yagya or whatever). I am not a believer in the idea that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. My reasons for religiousity are different from yours, and that is rightly so. Every individual should seek nirvana in their own unique way. Note that this principle doesn't necessarily sacrifice morals, because I keep morals and justice out of religion. I think this basically makes my ideas totally incompatible with Islam and Quran, because Quran is supposed to have prescriptions all aspects of my life and after-life. Having said all that, I will still go ahead and attempt to read. I am sure there are some good things I can pick up there. I am sorry if I am unable to see the light that you want to show me, but that's the nature of the beast: spirituality is a light that you must discover on your own. Regards, Human |
Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 21 August 2005 at 12:07am
I will have to admit to that.
There are many things you can't know, even if you try to know about them; what makes you think you can know about Allah through your own conjectures. And why won't Allah explicitly tell us about Himself, if He exists.
There are strong reasons to belive yout analogy is incorrect but I won't delve in to them right now.
I would like to quote a very beautiful post by a member here:-
Nice to know, that you believe in the life hereafter. Still I disagree with what you say. Since God is same for all of us, why do you think nature of our relationship with him should be different. If we differ on God, either you are correct or me; but not both of us. Because each of us don't have our "own" God, there is only one God for all of us.
Thanks for your time, Zaman. ------------- An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet |