Salam To: All

As a new starter, I thought of sharing an article on Shia Sunni by Dr Israr Ahmed. Hope this will clarify some of the misconceptions.

As far As I am concerned, No Sunni ( just because they are majority, can claim they are right) and No Shia ( just because of their unique adherence to Imam Ali can claim that they are right).

Regards

Fuhad

Bismillah

Salaamun alaykum. I would encourage all who unfamiliar with shia beliefs and history (and that does include those who only know of shias via non-shia sources) to please check out the following book online http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/ - http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/  as it dispels a lot of the myths about shias (including the myth of Abdullah Ibn Saba). It is also good to note that the majority of shia beliefs can also be found in the sahih hadith collections of the sunnis. The Shi'ite Encyclopedia (linked above) does just that on a vast array of subjects thought to be solely in shia sources.

Salaam To: AhmadJoyia

You have asked a very interesting question. In order to grasp the concept of transforming an illletrate ( arabic- 'ummi') to literate, you have to understand the words and etymolgy of arabic words such as 'Iqra' and 'ummi'.

Arabic word 'Iqra'- has mutliple meanings i.e to read, to recite, to repeat, to say etc..

Arabs were well aware of the academic skills of the man Muhammed(pbuh), because they knew his daily speaking version of arabic, however quranic arabic in quarishi dialect was bit difficult to digest for them. Throught prophets life there was a distinction between the message of quran conveyed to the people and his personal saying's ( i.e hadiths). If he was trying to be clever, i.e switching from classical, poetic, allegorical language to his colloquial language, then should have easily caught him fooling them, however I am still waiting to hear from Christian Arabs or Jewish Arabs to produce something similar to quaranic arabic.

Prophet was able to 'recite' ( i.e Iqra) the quran but he never had the ability to write, hence there were scribes and other people who use to write on various parchments available to them.

From Muslim stand point, classic example is the Treaty of Hudabiya, when asked to sign the treaty, he instead asked 'Ali' to sign on his behalf because inspite of having 'heard' the terms of treaty, he could not understand the written format of the document.

To evaluate this theme from an Orientlist Scholars point of view, we will adopt 'Conflict Approach'. They claim that Muhammed for the last 40 years has been preparing and learning academic skills during his business trips to Damascus and other areas of arabia, also he was in touch with Christian scribes who taught him to read and write. These claims are not well supported, but its worth to read about them as well.

Some type of muslims hold the view that knowledge or power was imparted during the embrasse but all of them believe that he was an 'Ummi Prophet', who was blessed with divine guidance.

Regards

Fuhad

I have not read all 1000+ postings, however, I would like to particpate any. I hope this was not already said.

I am an American re-vert to Islam (originally a Christian until the age of 21). I say this to establish that I have not been indoctrinated into any particular Islamic school of thought, and I beleive that Allah (S.W.A.) would not impose on us anything that did not make sense. This is the main reason for leaving the faith of my birth and the vast majority of my family members.

I have done quite a bit of research regarding the Sunni-Shia issue, and I am firmly convinced that the Shia are correct. When I say correct, let me explain (in part) what I mean. It is clear to me that;

1.) The Prophet Muhammad (A.S.) nominated Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib (A.S.) as his successor at least 3 times during his life in a clear an unmistakeable fashion. There are numerous sources in both Sunni and (of course) Shia books. I am amazed that my Sunni brothers and sisters consistently deny this when it is so clear, obvious and rational.

The First Time

" When the verse: "And warn thy nearest relations (26:214), was revealed, the Prophet ordered 'Ali to prepare food and invite the sons of 'Abdu'l-Muttalib so that he could convey to them the words of Allah. After the feast, the Prophet intended to talk to them, but Abu Lahab interfered by saying:"Verily, your comrade has entranced you". Upon hearing this statement all of them dispersed.

The next day, the Messenger of Allah again called them for a feast. After they had finished with their food, the Prophet addressed them: "O sons of 'Abdul'l-Muttalib, I have brought for you the good of this world and the next, and I have been appointed by the Lord to call you unto Him. Therefore, who amongst you will administer this cause for me and be my brother, my successor and my caliph?" No one responded to the Prophet' s call except 'Ali who was the youngest of the congregation. The Prophet then patted 'Ali's neck and said: "O my people! This 'A1i is my brother, my successor and my caliph amongst you. Listen to him and obey him.'' [16] "

" Abu Dharr al-Ghifari says that one day he was praying with the Prophet when a beggar came to the Prophet's mosque. No one responded to his pleas. The beggar raised his hands towards heavens and said, "Allah! be a witness that I came to Thy Prophet's mosque and no one gave me anything". 'Ali (as) was bowing in ruku' at that time. He pointed his little finger, on which was a ring, towards the beggar who came forward and took away the ring. This incident occurred in the Prophet's presence who raised his face towards heaven and prayed: "O Lord! my brother Musa had begged of Thee to open his breast and to make his work easy for him, to loose the knot of his tongue so that people might understand him, and to appoint from among his relations his brother, as his vizier, and to strengthen his back with Harun and to make Harun his partner in his work. O Allah! Thou said to Musa, 'We will strengthen thy arm with thy brother. No one will now have an access to either of you!' O Allah! I am Muhammad and Thou hast given me distinction. Open my breast for me, make my work easy for me, and from my family appoint my brother 'Ali as my vizier. Strengthen my back with him". The Prophet had not yet finished his prayers when Jibril brought the above quoted verse. [17] "

Salaam To: Ali Zaki

Well lets make it clear, who says Shia are wrong. Shia Imami ( 12ver shia) or Jafari fiqh is an accepted school of Law within Islam. Please refer to my first post on this topic, I dont think you have read it carefully. Sheikh al Shatut from alAzhar and even Maulana Madudi have given their certification for 12 vers.

Now the question is, that being a revert which school of law you have decided to follow. Once that is established, then I  will proceed on the 'Doctrine of Imamate'.

Quoting literal text from Shia sources and asking to dig those statements from within Sunni sources does not qualify for understanding these difference within the ' Classical Framework of Islam'

I would blame the Sunni's for getting offended by the literal quotes from Shia text without understanding their contexts.

Also I would blame the Shia's for excessive projections of certain selected text to prove their point and not explaning the context.

I am sure if Prophet Mohammed ( for the sake of argument) comes back in time, he will be laughing at Sunni and Shia stock.

Finally, I would like pick your last quote on Aisha's rebellion. Are you implying that Prophet Mohammed didn't had the forsight and married a silly irrational women.

Regards

Fuhad

Salam Fuhad, (I'm embarrased to say I don't know if I should address you as "Sister" or "Brother. My apologies for the lack of salutation).

From the Sunni viewpoint, I would say that I accept the Jafari Mathab, however, I find this distinction rather strange. To clarify, I accept the position of Immate of the Ithnan Ashira (12er) Shia school of thought, and I consider myself a Shia.

The reason I say this is strange is because, within mainstream Shiism there is not distinction of which "School of Law" you follow. The reason is that if you accept that Imam Ali (a.s.) was the legitimate and rightful successor of the authority and purity (sinlessness) of the prophet as a member of the 'Alhly al Bait', then this distinction is not relevant.

Regarding Aisha, I would say that my intention here is not to offend anyone. I think that it is wrong for the Shia to insult/slander her, however, her public actions can be legitimately examined. What would your say about someone who is the leader of the army fighting against the legitimate Caliphat based on a false accusation? Is it appropriate to praise such a person?

Salam zaki,

        Many newmuslims become shia,because of the preaching of shia on the net.Most of the sites are shia.Sunni being in majority do not care much about counterattack.

  What I found strange was.

 The reason I say this is strange is because, within mainstream Shiism there is not distinction of which "School of Law" you follow

Never heard of usoli and akhbari athna ashris?Both call each other kafir.

Salam Delight,

Thank you for your contribution.

Let me explain this statment. The vast majority of Shia (and Shia websites) present one point of view, namely the 12er (Ithnan Ashera) perspective. This perspective is not, strictly speaking considered a "School of Law" because the only Shia that say they are anything but Shia are those in the tiny minority (such as Ismali's, Alawi's, etc.). I cannot think of any discussion I've had with a Shia (from many different parts of the world) where any sub-identification was given. Shia simply identify themselves as such, and 12er is assumed.

In contrast, Sunni's usually further segregate themselves based on the Mathhab which they follow. You don't find educated Sunnis (in intellectual discussions) just saying "I'm a Sunni" and not being challenged or asked for their Mathhab. Of course, the Wahabi's do try to just identify themselves as "Muslim", but this is disengenous as most Muslims certainly do not share the Wahabi perspective (unless you consider eveyone else to be Kafirs, but that's a different subject).

I am not very educated on the differences between the Sunni Schools of Law, however, I assume there must be significant differences.

Salam

Salam,

 These athna ashri represent usooli shiaism.This shiaism became predominant after 1979 Irani revolution.Most followers are Iranian.

      But in other countries,like Indo pak,Akhbari dominate.

If you want to get a little deeper in this,go to ahbari.org.

The shias present a United front.But infact they are divided on basic principals of shiaism. 

   Sunni are divided in minor diffrences in practice only,we do not fight on basic principals.Usooli shias are even more segregated on the basis of thousands of marjas.

   You will find in akbari site,that their fatwas on Islamic rules,differ greatly.Sistani allow eating some birds,which are haram in the eyes of other marjas.

   The defence of usooli,that marjas are responsible,is absurd.Because in front of Allah,shia will be answerable for their deeds,not their marjas.If a marja give correct fatwa he will get full Thwab,if wrong half.But the poor follower will go to hell.

   Salafism is a movement.Like that of Martin luther in christanity.It is not a separate madhab.Because it is a movement,it is a bit extreme.You will admit that getting a Pope,s letter and going to heaven was a much easier way than that of luther. 

    Su

Salam delight,

With respect to you, someone who would post a topic called, "Hate Game of the Shia" does not seem like a respectful, intellectual person to have a dialogue with (of couse, I could be wrong and Allah (s.w.a.) is al-Alim (the judge)).

From an academic point of view, your arguments are weak and annecdotal and lack evidence of scholarly research.

Salafism is not a Mathab or a school of jurisprudence and is not accepted by either Sunni's or Shia's as. Your examination of the system of Wilayat and Marjaiyah according to the Shia is incorrect , "on it's face" and is not worth responding to in any serious way.

Please do not continue in this Fitna that you are creating, or at least educate yourself about those that you wish to criticize. Maybe the 'Hate Game' is being played by someone other than the Shia.

     Shias are eloquent when talking about diffrences among sunnis.But become silent when fighting among akhbari and usooli athna ashri is cited.lol.

  Maybe if shia just remain shia and donot try to prove sunni wrong,there will be no fitna.

    I always say to shias,less preaching and more practising of Islam will save them,not their Imams. 

Assalamu alaikum,

Just a comment -  Allah gave us the perfect religion, simple, easy to follow, easy to understand, open to all.  Why is it that humans (it seems to me mostly men, as they are the "scholars") want to go and make Islam so complicated?  This has led to so many fractures in the ummah.  What a pity.

Peace, ummziba.

Salam,

   ummziba.Answer is simple.Money.

Large group means less devotion,small group means more devotion so more khums and zakath.

  These priests represent the oldest religion of world.The feed on fears and doubts of beleivers.

 Islam,in which there is no concept of clergy,finally sucsumbed to them.

 Women are more realistic,they can see the real simplicity of Islam.

 While we men,try to find hidden meanings in Islam.

delight wrote:  Women are more realistic,they can see the real simplicity of Islam.

Perhaps this helps explain why thousands of women all over the world are converting to Islam!

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote:  .   Perhaps this helps explain why thousands of women all over the world are converting to Islam!

   And also the fact that they do not force others to follow their Religion.If you say someone,s religion is wrong,they reflexily refuse to understand your logic that follows next.

Re: Divisions among the Muslims into groups, Here are the words of Imam Ali (a.s.) when he was asked about the reason for the divisions that appeared among the Muslims during his time,

" I wonder, and there is no reason why I should not wonder, about the faults of these groups who have introduced alterations in their religious pleas, who do not move on the footsteps of their Prophet nor follow the actions of the vicegerent. They do not believe in the unknown and do not avoid the evil. They act on the doubts and tread in (the way of) their passions. For them good is whatever they consider good and evil is whatever they consider evil. Their reliance for resolving distresses is on themselves. Their confidence in regard to dubious matters is on their own opinions as if every one of them is the Leader (Imam) of himself. Whatever he has decided himself he considers it to have been taken through reliable sources and strong factors. "

Nagul Balagha, Sermon No. 88

Salam

dear brothers and sisters Salamun alaykum.I am a ne-revert to Islam after a long period of soul searching and reading. Islam is the most beautiful message of GOD.

After reading in-depth , after what happened after the demise of Holy Prophet (PBUH) , i concluded, that IMAM ALI is the rightly appointed successor to Holy Prophet and the followers of Imam Ali , have thus direct link to Holy Prophet.

Look at what Muawiyah did to Imam Ali....hundreds of people killed in Siffeen in the war against the RIGHTLY Appointed successor of Prophet. But I am amazed how my Sunni brothers and sisters just ignore this huge fact and still respect this person (muawiya)

Even if you look at the world today, True Islam is being represented by the teachings of Islamic Revolution in iran.

We have same book, same Allah, same Kaaba, same Prophet, but unfortunately, i have seen Salafis, curse and swear and label as Kafir 'other muslims". I have not met a single Shia brother or sister who will call others Kafir.

All this has led me to study Shia school deeply and I conlcuded that SHIAISM is the mainstream and the direct connection to Holy Prophet.

Another mind-boggling fact :

SON of Imam Ali, hussain gave up everything in karabala , when he was killed by Yazeed son of Muawiya.

But HOW MANY SUNNIS do we know who even respect and consider Imam hussain as a HERO of islam and condemn the killer army of yazid?

Despite the difference my shia -contacts urge me to join hands with other muslims based on our common points.

I just want to urge every one to be open and fair minded...esp "delight"

Salams to najeeb and others.

If you have some time, please review the hmmmm! topic if you have not done so already. I believe it would be very enlightening to you, since you are interested in this debate.

I consider myself to be a muslim and I aspire to be a mu'min (although I probably don't deserve the latter). A mu'min is the best title we could ever give ourselves. But what does it mean to be a mu'min ? That is the question. In my opinion, and the opinion of many other, it simply means that when we take Shahada " Ashadu an La Ilaha IllAllah wa ahshad anla Muhammed RasoullAllah" we belive this in an unconditional and absolute sense and attempt to apply it in our daily lives. The beauty of the phrase is that it is enough to guide you to the right path, if your (niyyat) intention is pure.

All of the problems and divisions that have occured in the Ummah of Muhammed after his death have been the result of muslims not being true to their Shahada. The first part "Ashadu an La Illaha IllAllah..." would prevent us from worshiping anything except Allah(s.w.a). It is unfortunate that some of the Prophet's companions began worshipping other that Allah(s.w.a) after the Prophet's(p.b.u.h) death. Of course, they didn't do this in a literal sense, but in a figurative sense. They began to worship wealth and position in place of Allah(s.w.a). This lead to the violation of the second part of Shahada "Ashadu anla Muhammed RasoullAllah". They began to call into question what the Prophet(p.b.u.h) had made clear on The Day of Ghadir. The Prophet's(p.b.u.h) nomination of Imam Ali to suceed him as leader of the muslims was not only made at Ghadir , but at many other times and occasions and is recorded in many of the Sunni saheeh (Such as Bukhari and Muslim). This , in tern, lead to the tragedy of the events of the Sakifa and ultimately to the tragedy of Karbala, and to the unfortunate events of our time such as the creation of the Zionist state of Israel and the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Today the Ummah of Muhammed(p.b.u.h)  is in a very unfortunate situation. Some of our muslim brothers and sisters say, "We'll let's just forget about the leadership question and focus our I'badat(worship). This never made sense to me, as if any leader will do. If that is the case then think about this; Imagine if our leader in the first 23 years of Islam had been anyone other the RasoulAllah(p.b.u.h) ? Would the religion of Islam even exist today ?

Salaam:

Can anyone provide a list of leading 'Western Scholars of Islam in University's of UK, USA, Europe and Australia ( I mean converts, I dont want Iranian, Indians or Egyptians etc ) who have choosen to follow Jafari Madhab i.e shia version of Islam eg Hamza Yusuf who choose Maliki Madhab ,Sunni version of Islam to follow.

This will be helpful for my comparative comparative.

Regards

Fuhad

Salam alakum brother Najeeb,

Beside the logical fallacies in Ayubi1187's previous post that you correctly pointed out, I can show you many other examples both in his previous posts, and many other's. In addition, I can show you many insulting and deragatory remarks and personal attacks he has made on myself and other Shia brothers on this forum. Of course, I am confused by this as my understanding was that this is not allowed. Here is the basis for my assumption

(from Discussion Guidelines)

" 2. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions.

and

10.) We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants"

I could go on and on about his tactics, which are typical of the sect to which he belongs (i.e. Wahabi/Salafi), but I won't. Ever since I realized that his true intention is to attack the Shia (calling them "lunitics", a "cult", etc.)  and praise those those who oppressed and murdered the members of the Ahly Al'Bayt, I have refrained from responding to his name-calling and inflamatory remarks.

The sad thing is that there are educated members of the Ahly Al-Sunna on this forum (such as Jello, Rami and others) with which I have enjoyed discussing these issues in a respectcul manner,  and learned from. It is sad that one bad apple has to spoil the discussion.

Salam