salam sister

i understand your question in 2ways:

1)conversion changes the person's view :by making the convert know his aim in this life&recognize his responsibilities towards God(Allah) & towards others

2)conversion rates increased in the past few years,& this made the world recognise the importance of making  dialogues with islamic nation & open channels of sharing ideas with muslims allover the world

Moses: interesting!! when they talk about the truth, they are talking about they thougts about the truth! and when they say come and follow my Deen, they are talking about their own leaders!

Pati: I believe in God, but in the Christian God. I don't believe in Allah, in Quran, for myself

Salams Pati,

Some of your feeling about Islam might be because of some invalid information from any source (books, media or other Muslims). For example, a newborn in Muslim family can not said to be Muslim because S/he is born in a Muslim family. In Islam everyone who claims that s/he is a Muslim should have already done enough research and should have already used their own intellect and be freely convinced before accepting Islam. In Islam, an individual who has been born and has grown in a Muslim family would have as much responsibility to do research for finding the truth as anyone else born in a non-Muslim family as any human being.

Pati: For us as Christian, our God, Jews God and Allah are the same and only God.

[myahya]
That refers to their physiological being. However, their level of Iman, spirituality and pureness are not comparable to fallible humans.
God also says that unbelievers would reject messengers and do not follow them arguing that they are noting but human, see for example:
Quran (36:13-15)
(13) And set out to them an example of the people of the town, when the messengers came to it. (14) When We sent to them two, they rejected both of them, then We strengthened them with a third, so they said: Surely we are messengers to you. (15)" They said: You are naught but mortals like ourselves, nor has the Beneficent God revealed anything; you only lie"

If the messengers are better than me, it�s because God gave them something that did not give to me as well, not because of the difference in humanity. They are not our base of Iman(faith) , they are not who that help us, they are as weak as others, but God make them full of power from himself. As Quran says: 17-56

قُلِ ٱدۡعُواْ ٱلَّذِينَ زَعَمۡتُم مِّن دُونِهِۦ فَلَا يَمۡلِكُونَ كَشۡفَ ٱلضُّرِّ عَنكُمۡ وَلَا تَحۡوِيلاً (٥٦)

salam to all:

sorry,sister Patti,we muslims follow jesus more than you as a christian do,read the following(in english,not Spanish nor arabic!!)

now look at the picture of muslim making prayer:

Moses

If the messengers are better than me, it�s because God gave them something that did not give to me as well, not because of the difference in humanity.

I did not claim that it is because of difference in humanity.

they are not who that help us, they are as weak as others, but God make them full of power from himself.

In verses 17:56 � 2:107 and 197, that use the Arabic word �Men Doonehi� a misunderstanding has been occurred. �Men Doonehi� does not mean �anything that is not God� it means �anything that is not from God�s side�. The prophets are from God�s side. The prophets are not �Men Doone Allah� they are �Men Ghebale Allah� (sent by Allah and from His side and confirmed and helped by Him).

But about the verse 110, we do not worship the prophet nor do we consider any participation for the prophet or anything else when we worship. This does not have anything to do with following the prophet which is God�s command.

Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful. (144)

Means following the messenger, if is different from following the Lord, will be up to the death of that messenger! Yes?! The reason is here

This verse (144) is exactly one of the reasons proving that following the prophet should not be ended by his death. Allah warns people to avoid forgetting everything and coming back to the ignorance after the death of the prophet.

On the other hand you want follow someone who does not know anything about the invisible world and cannot does anything even for himself?!! And you want him do something for you?!! Up to you , but he say himself something else : 7-188

Unfortunately this verse is also misunderstood. Here the prophet says and emphasizes that he has nothing (like knowledge of the Unseen) except what Allah gives to him. It is true. Nobody and no created being would have anything originally from themselves. If the prophets show any kind of miracles, it is what God gives them (and by His permission) rather than what they can generate from themselves without God.  The proof on the knowledge of unseen is here, please read the following verses carefully and do not judge too fast when you read one verse of Quran:

Quran (72:26-27)

The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any. Except to him whom He chooses as a messenger; for surely He makes a guard from angels to march before him and after him

Quran (3:44)

This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you And you were not with them when they cast their pens) to decide (which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another

bannest that which Allah had made lawful

He did not ban it for people. He did it in his private life while he had personal freedom to decide (not disobeying God). Meanwhile, this also shows that every single behavior of the prophet even in his personal life is guaranteed confirmed or changed by God's will.

seeking to please of human , not please of God

First, seeking to please a human does not necessarily contradict pleasing God. Second, as soon as it was revealed to the prophet that God does not will such a ban the prophet broke it as he was the most submitted to God. Nothing negative about the prophet can be proved from these verses.

But let me tell you one thing that can be proved from these verses. If you pay attention to the rest of this story in Quran the verses again prove that the prophet had the knowledge of Unseen.

Quran (66:3)

And when the prophet secretly communicated a piece of information to one of his wives, but when she informed others of it, and Allah made him to know it, he made known part of it and avoided part So when he informed her of it, she said: Who informed you of this? He said: The Knowing, the Aware, informed me.                

Then lets don`t look at him just like a supper human that was cleansed from the first (!!!)

He was cleansed from the first. And this fact makes him not a supper human but the best and the most complete example in his behavior to others and submission to God. 

originaly by myahya: Moses If the messengers are better than me, it�s because God gave them something that did not give to me as well, not because of the difference in humanity. I did not claim that it is because of difference in humanity.

Then you would know that God can give you something better for yourself. Because Quran says :( 16-2)

 يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلآئِكَةَ بِالْرُّوحِ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ عَلَى مَن يَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ أَنْ أَنذِرُواْ أَنَّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ أَنَاْ فَاتَّقُونِ ﴿۲﴾

he sends down the angels with the Spirit by his command to those of his worshipers whom he wishes, (saying:) 'warn, there is no god except me, therefore fear me. '

What is better than this good news? He says he can do it and he will do it if he wishes himself. Means for revealing the angels by the Holy Spirit for each worshiper of God, there is only one thing needed: God`s will. If you believe in God, it`s enough , you don`t need to believe in yourself!

وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ لَوْلاَ يُكَلِّمُنَا اللّهُ أَوْ تَأْتِينَا آيَةٌ كَذَلِكَ قَالَ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِم مِّثْلَ قَوْلِهِمْ تَشَابَهَتْ قُلُوبُهُمْ قَدْ بَيَّنَّا الآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ ﴿۱۱۸﴾

and those who have no knowledge say: why doth not allah speak unto us, or some sign come unto us? even thus, as they now speak, spake those (who were) before them. their hearts are all alike. we have made clear the revelations (by spiritual talking=BAEIANA) for people who are sure.(2-118)

Again as you see he is capable to talk in their hearts to everybody who is sure

they are not who that help us, they are as weak as others, but God make them full of power from himself. In verses 17:56 � 2:107 and 197, that use the Arabic word �Men Doonehi� a misunderstanding has been occurred. �Men Doonehi� does not mean �anything that is not God� it means �anything that is not from God�s side�. The prophets are from God�s side. The prophets are not �Men Doone Allah� they are �Men Ghebale Allah� (sent by Allah and from His side and confirmed and helped by Him).

All of us should be aware of changing the meanings of words in translation of Quran.

Meaning of words are not �understanding�(mine or popular!) from a word. The first condition for use of Quran is to be faitful to the words . then let`s see what is the meaning of word:

Now, please put your suggestion meaning for the word مِن دُونِ   and then you will see yourself!  Do you need more examples?!  If it`s not clear , it�s easy to explain more.

But about the verse 110, we do not worship the prophet nor do we consider any participation for the prophet or anything else when we worship. This does not have anything to do with following the prophet which is God�s command.

Considering the first and the last words of this verse, reveal for us that there where something and Quran does not say anything without special reason, isn`t it?!

At the first: say I am just a human like you �and �at the last is the reason: �don`t worship someone beside your God �, obviously there are people who do this and the message is for them, hopefully you are not among them.

Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful. (144) Means following the messenger, if is different from following the Lord, will be up to the death of that messenger! Yes?! The reason is here This verse (144) is exactly one of the reasons proving that following the prophet should not be ended by his death. Allah warns people to avoid forgetting everything and coming back to the ignorance after the death of the prophet.

Don`t need any arguing about the message of this verse, I confirm the message by another verses which explain that for us for free! See:(2-108&109)

أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللّهَ لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا لَكُم مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلاَ نَصِيرٍ ﴿۱۰۷﴾أَمْ تُرِيدُونَ أَن تَسْأَلُواْ رَسُولَكُمْ كَمَا سُئِلَ مُوسَى مِن قَبْلُ وَمَن يَتَبَدَّلِ الْكُفْرَ بِالإِيمَانِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاء السَّبِيلِ ﴿۱۰۸﴾

do you not know that it is to allah that the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belong, and that there is none, other than him, to protect or help you! would you rather demand of your messenger that which was once demanded of moses! he who exchanges belief for disbelief has surely strayed from the right path.

And the verse 144 says: Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful. (144)

It`s clear completely. These verses are telling one message to us, what is this message?

Unfortunately this verse is also misunderstood. Here the prophet says and emphasizes that he has nothing (like knowledge of the Unseen) except what Allah gives to him. It is true. Nobody and no created being would have anything originally from themselves. If the prophets show any kind of miracles, it is what God gives them (and by His permission) rather than what they can generate from themselves without God.  The proof on the knowledge of unseen is here, please read the following verses carefully and do not judge too fast when you read one verse of Quran:

Very good , that sounds we are agree in this point, I said �he� means a human , cannot lead anybody even himself toward the heaven, but �his message� is different !

 

Quran (72:26-27)   The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any. Except to him whom He chooses as a messenger; for surely He makes a guard from angels to march before him and after him

 Beautiful!! Isn`t it?!! Who can make himself such a humble in compare and in presence of his God?!! Look it again: 'indeed, i possess no power over you, either for harm or for guidance. ' (۲۱), can you hear his voice?!! Muhammad is telling us as if he is here yet! And this is only because the words are not from human. Do you know �.He is talking to you as well! This is the messenger of God and is talking to everybody who loves God and respects his messengers.

Quran (3:44) this is from the news of the unseen. we reveal it to you (prophet muhammad). you were not present when they cast their quills to see which of them should look after mary, nor were you present when they were disputing. Or: This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you And you were not with them when they cast their pens) to decide (which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another

In this verse Quran tell us that Muhammad has the knowledge of unseen world?!! Or this is talking about one, or some , special news which God is telling him?

Is this that you say making him different from other believers?!!

In some previous verses you can see that he told us �I possess no power over you, either for harm or for guidance. How many times he should tell us that he cannot be our guidance then you take of your hand from him?!!!! Keep the robe of God not his messenger, ok?!

When somebody says: �'I supplicate only to my lord and I do not associate any with him� when he is in the mosque of God (in previous verses of this chapter) , I promise to you he definitely has not never talk about himself during his pray(just like you do it )!

mosques belong to allah, so do not call to anyone else, other than allah. (۱۸)

وَأَنَّ الْمَسَاجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلَا تَدْعُوا مَعَ اللَّهِ أَحَدًا ﴿۱۸﴾

 

And in the last day, may the first protest to you, would be Muhammad himself! Because you know the verse 18 and 20 of chapter 72 of Quran , and you continue to worship him during your daily pray , during your whispers with God, during your daily activities, when call someone for help in your heart, and during all of your times in mosques and call him as your hero, and after all of these , you say you are not worshiping him!!!!

bannest that which Allah had made lawful   He did not ban it for people�.

And God did not protest to him because he bans something for people!! Quran says: why you change the commandment of God (for yourself not the others!) look delicately, Muhammad changes something without permission of God, and only for seeking the pleasant of his wives.

This is a sort of confess of Muhammad, and you don`t let him to do this?!!!

He did it in his private life while he had personal freedom to decide (not disobeying God).

To decide changing the law?!!!! Even for him?!and what you call this if it�s not disobeying God?!!!

seeking to please of human , not please of God First, seeking to please a human does not necessarily contradict pleasing God.

Then you say God was pleased with him in these verses?!! Then why he ask his prophet if he is pleased?!!!

 

Second, as soon as it was revealed to the prophet that God does not will such a ban the prophet broke it as he was the most submitted to God. Nothing negative about the prophet can be proved from these verses.

Yes, and this is his repenting from his sin and God accepted and cleansed him again for his mission.  Thanks for explanation, realy good job.

 

[QUOTE=myahya]

Everyone,

peacemaker wrote: Everyone, Please follow the section and the forum guidelines and stick to the topic.   Peace

agree, but conversion from Islam , from my view is conversion from hadith, stories and every thing they write and say this is following your prophet! For this I should tell about following the prophet. But if its not related, I ask to transfer these posts to another topic please.

Hi,

Don`t need any arguing about the message of this verse, I confirm the message by another verses which explain that for us for free! See:(2-108&109)

Quran (2:108 and 109) is again for people who do not �follow� the prophet. It is obvious because people started to ask the prophet to bring different things for them in a way that they simply prefer more. Such an asking was the same as what the people of Moses (as) asked him to do. You can review the verses where Quran explains what people asked Moses (as) to do which were against the will of God.

What does it have to do with �following� the prophet? Furthermore, are you saying that the above asking refers to any kind of asking? What if a human came to the prophet asking for a guidance towards God? Can you show that such an asking falls in the meaning of Quran(2:109) ?!

If some verses are especially for the same time and position in which they have revealed, they will be not useful anymore and this is against the holiness of Quran. Then these are useful every time and in every position if Quran is the words of God. If you make this verse limited in some positions and don`t accept that in other situations, you are not a completely believer in Quran.

Asking means �want� something from a human. People suppose to ask or want everything from their creator, not other created human, this is the message of these verses. Following the prophet if is not equal to following the Gods words, is mistake. And if that is following the words of God, it will not be more than words of God itself or less than that God told us in his words.

Guidance toward God can`t be split from words of God. The problem is, when somebody asks to guide, some of you talk to him behalf of the prophet and for this, you are teaching people your words not God words. As you see the problem is not prophet himself (he is a dear friend for God) the problem is following him in a time that he is not alive and can`t prevent us from the mistake in teaching or learning the words of God.

Very good , that sounds we are agree in this point, I said �he� means a human , cannot lead anybody even himself toward the heaven, but �his message� is different !

I did not say that the prophet�s body would lead people to heaven. Follow his message then, and do not try to depart between believers and him regarding loving him, following him and obeying him included in his message.

As I said, his message is not different from words of God. Using his words for personal and group`s benefits is possible, but using of words which he told and they wrote as the name of Quran is not change able. Believers suppose to be believers of God, not believers of prophet, as prophet said himself in the Quran and you say also that it`s truth.

���..
I love the prophet and I follow him and obey him (ensha allah) through his messages, behavior and commands as I believe this is the best way God has set for us to be guided, alhamdolellah. So far I have presented my reasons. You accuse me of worshiping the prophet while I have not done or said so and Allah knows the heats better than anyone.

Worshiping means love somebody as you love your creator (God) and talking about this love in yourself and to the other people. Then if you believe that Muhammad is holy , without any mistake and has powers of God with knowledge of unseen world , then you when you send blessings on prophet  you are really worshiping him, if you say �No� then send your blessings just like Quran says in 33-43

هُوَ الَّذِي يُصَلِّي عَلَيْكُمْ وَمَلَائِكَتُهُ لِيُخْرِجَكُم مِّنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيمًا ﴿۴۳﴾

He it is who sends his blessings on you, and (so do) his angels, that he may bring you forth out of utter darkness into the light; and he is merciful to the believers

Quran says: why you change the commandment of God (for yourself not the others!) look delicately, Muhammad changes something without permission of God, and only for seeking the pleasant of his wives. To decide changing the law?!!!! Even for him?!and what you call this if it�s not disobeying God?!!!

Do not add something to Quran please. Quran does not say so. Was there a previous-made commandment to the prophet that the prophet disobeyed? Can it be proved from this verse of Quran?

I did not add this chapter to Quran! This was the prophet himself! He told and somebody wrote that and we are now only reading them!

This is the same verse and 4 English translation, you can see yourself:

As you see all of them say the same thing: Allah has made something lawful and the prophet forbid that, and the reason is not serving God,  and is not seeking God`s please, it is to please his wives!

Talking about the others mistake is not beautiful and I don`t wanted. But here there is another aim, the aim and the message of this verse is warning us about making holly personality for the servant of God.

No. Quran (66:1) only shows that the prophet had decided to ban something and God willed it to be changed.

Disagree; at first it was lawful as Quran says. And then the prophet forbade that, if it was not lawful then how he could make it forbidden?!!!

����.

I did not say so. I stated that you can not simply generalize everything and come up with conclusion. Seeking to please a human being does not GENERALLY and NECESSARILY contradict pleasing God. Therefore, you can not conclude that the prophet must have known that he would not please God if he

decided to please his wives.

I did not generalize it!! If I want to do so I should say the prophet is a sinner!!!! And I don`t believe in such thing! But sin is sin, for prophet its more difficult because he has cleansed and living in presence of God to be in his service to send the message of God. He knows completely that he is not living for himself any more! he knows completely that his mission is more important than his worldly life, and he knows that his position is to be near to God for ever, then he should live in presence of God in every moments and in every seconds of his life , not only� Should�!, but he do this currently actually!

then we can`t trust on prophet himself, �himself� means prophet who is not the reality of message, prophet who is not permanently words of God, prophet who is sometimes himself! Prophet who is not our creator and he says himself is a human just like us.

But prophet in the most of time of his living time, was talking as the Allah`s tongue. Then you should follow him in his living time if you were there. But now, who is trustable to tell and reveal the laws behalf of him? Or narrations his commands and living styles for you? If you know him, really he is your prophet not Muhammad the prophet of Allah! Because he is who tell you that what the prophet said!

 if this person is one, he is your prophet, and if are more than one, they are your prophet!!

And any ways, he has not power to remove your affliction or transfer it. Because he is not your God!

17-56

Peacemaker, I also think that it would be much better if this discussion was in different thread with its own topic. I did not have idea that it might be a lengthy discussion.

If following the prophet is following God, why we should talk about the prophet, we can stick to words of God. And if there are differences, means we should not follow that because is not following God.

If we want to stick to words of God we should notice that �following the prophet� is word of God because it is His clear command in Quran. Meanwhile, God tells us in Quran that the meaning of the words of God and practical practicing of His words could be taught by the prophet. In Quran, God introduces the prophet as the best teacher (of His words) and best example for us.

Bayyeneh means revelation. Means making bright something for someone in any way, then we can`t create boundaries for the meaning and limit it to miracles by a definition based on human mind.

I did not create boundaries for this word. It is �any clear sign� or �revelation�. The thing is that (2:118) is talking about Bayyeneh which has come to the prophet not to the heart of other people. Then people say why did it not come to them?!! And Quran blames them for asking so.

What is revealed to the prophet is not in category of Men Doone Allah. But human , prophet or other leaders , are Men Doone Allah, because they are not creator, they can`t do anything with their own ability or knowledge.

God has given them the required ability and knowledge for being followed. Taking the meaning of Men Doone Allah as �not being Allah� does not necessitate or prove that we should not follow them. Based on your argument, Quran is also Men Doone Allah because obviously Quran is not Allah and is Men Doone Allah. Why do you use the verses of Quran since they are Men Doone Allah?!!

Everything is good in prophet is from God and everything is bad in prophet is from himself. (4-79)

Unfortunately there is a misleading in this translation of (4:79). The verse never proves that anything is bad in the prophet. The translation is "whatever from bad things that crosses you (collides with you)". It does not say "whatever which is bad in you". These two meanings are totally different.

Why you escape from the meaning of this word?! And searching for witnesses from Quran to tell us that the meaning of this word is not the same as an Arabic word does?!

As I asked before, why do you follow Quran when it is not Allah? I am not escaping. You see it becomes obviously meaningless if you want to apply meaning of this word as �not being Allah� everywhere. If you want to stick to this meaning that �Do not get help from anything who is not Allah� then why do you go to doctor if you feel you are sick? A doctor is Men Doone Allah if you use such a definition.

They are worry about following of words of God because if one does not follow the prophet they violate the word of God which clearly states many times to follow the prophet. Here it seems you would like to escape from this clear commandment of God in His words and you are making boundaries for it without an acceptable reason. This is itself interpreting the Quran Men Doone Allah and based on self desires.

Is this phrase �Men Ghebalellah� from Quran or somebody made it to complete the Quran?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Quran it is �Menallah� or �Men ladonellah� which means �from God�s side�.

Quran (4:75) And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

I did not say that these verses (2:108,109) are only referring to the time when the prophet was alive. It is our responsibility to take out the message of these verses for our today life. The message I understand is here:

�Do not interact with the prophet based on your own desires. Follow the prophets instead of asking what you prefer more. In other words, do not order what you desire, instead be submitted and follow what they tell you to do.�

As you see the problem is not prophet himself (he is a dear friend for God) the problem is following him in a time that he is not alive and can`t prevent us from the mistake in teaching or learning the words of God.

First, you are suggesting that many verses of Quran only refers to the time when the prophet was alive. But it is against the holiness of Quran as you said previously.

Second, this is not a problem. We have to do our best by doing serious research to find the truth in history. Once a narration from the prophet is proved to be true, we will use it for both understanding and practicing. If we unconditionally put all narrations and Sunnah of the prophet away and stick to Quran, then we have to interpret only based on our own understanding which of course does not prevent us from mistakes. The difference is that in the first case we have done our responsibility and Allah knows it and would guide us, but in the second case we have escaped from the responsibility that Quran put on our shoulders. One day we will be asked about it.

The facts that the prophet has told people regarding guidance and asked people to do are not changeable. By �following the prophet� I do not mean to follow what WE think we should follow. I mean to follow what the prophet has really told us to do.

Believers suppose to be believers of God, not believers of prophet, as prophet said himself in the Quran and you say also that it`s truth.

According to Quran the believers are supposed to believe in God and the prophet. See for example:

Quran (4:136) O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Worshiping means love somebody as you love your creator (God)

The love in creator should be the first and strongest love of a believer.

As you see all of them say the same thing: Allah has made something lawful and the prophet forbid that, and the reason is not serving God,  and is not seeking God`s please, it is to please his wives!

It seems you do not know Allah has commanded in Quran that everyone should take full care of their partner and satisfy them. Considering this law, the prophet had been already obeying God when he decided to satisfy his wives. Therefore, the verse (66:1) by no means shows that the prophet disobeyed God. Disobeying can only be proved when one knows what the will of God is but intentionally disobeys for the sake of any other reason.

But here there is another aim, the aim and the message of this verse is warning us about making holly personality for the servant of God.

The prophet is already proved to be holy as soon as it was proved that he is a prophet. But in my opinion, one of the aims of this verse and its following verses is to warn us about making holy personality for the wives of the prophet.

Quran seriously commands to love the prophet, to follow him, to obey him and to take him as the best example. This is not something that one can deny.

Moses:

And do you believe that he was Sonni, or Shiee or in other groups?!!

The prophet was the main reference himself. Through Quran and his own sayings and sunnah, by God�s will and permission, he commanded people to follow him. The labels (sonni, shiee ,�) were made after his death on the subject of following which is a must. The problem is that some Muslims did not follow the prophet (from beginning till today) even though they knew and know how to do it, and some (may be for example only-Quran Muslims) try to erase the question instead of finding the true answer (while it is possible to find the true answer).

Do you believe that Muhammad said �Hi� to himself several times a day?!!

Allah and angels send salaams to the prophet and we are also commanded to do so. It is in Quran.

The problem is: you trust in someone who is not God or his prophet, you trust in narrators and in some people who they recommend the narrators to you. And unfortunately in other groups, they have the other narrators that they believe in them!

I do not trust on narrators unconditionally. I say ALL narrations (regardless of labels and sects in Islam) are to be investigated seriously and academically. First, from scientific point of view, it is possible to determine the level of authenticity of a historical narration. Second, with the light of Quran, the level of authenticity and the help of intellect, experts can distinguish between corrupted/fabricated narrations and factual ones.

If one does not pay attention to a series of narrations (despite of numerous numbers of historical evidences) for the sake of one narrator or one collection or one specific book, then you are right. However, as I said, escaping from the question is not the solution.

God could save him up to the end, but did not do this because of your exam!!! You think you have not exam?!!

Let me highlight the difference between my and your belief about the criterion of this exam.

I say that the exam was (and is) this:  Who really follows the prophet (an accurate following) after his death.

You say that the exam was (and is) this: Who forgets about following the prophet after his death.

In spite of very clear unconditional verses of Quran which commands us to follow the prophet and numerous historical narrations (confirmed to be authentic), you are inviting me to refuse all of them and follow what you are thinking of the criterion of this exam. Can you see what you are expecting others to do?

All of them say believe that should be the follower of Prophet (just like the other religions) , but can you see Muslims as a unique nation?!! NO�. you are not one nation who used to call as �Muslims� anymore! now you are different sort of Muslims, you have one prophet and one God, but different �Narrators� and story tellers!! You trapped in your opinions and can`t fix that because Satan robbed from your mind these words:

The split does not have anything to do with true narrations because true narrations reflect the historical facts. The split originated from the fact that some people did not follow the prophet accurately after his death.

Furthermore, if any individual Muslim was an only-Quran Muslim, then you would have different opinions in every aspect of Islam per individual Muslim, resulting in diversity as large as the number of verses of Quran times the population of Muslims in the world.

About Quran (6:159) and (30:32), in my opinion, those who has refused to follow the prophet after his death are those who split the religion.

Quran is not created, Quran is revealed. Because it was from the first and will be up to the end.  

I disagree. Quran is both created and revealed. How and in what form it was from the first. Bring evidence.

Because it is not anything unless God.

Do you believe that Quran revealed itself and Quran created you?!!!

I believe that words of God are not different from God himself

Why do you call them words of God then? Call them God and worship them.

You do not differ between God and His words!!! If you believe so you must also believe that Isa Masih (as) is God because Quran clearly says that he was a word of God:

Quran (3:45) Behold! the angels said:" O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of the company of those nearest to Allah."

if you believe that word of God is created, then tell me about this: 16-40. As you see creation is doing by use of word.

Quran (16:40) does not prove that word of God is creator. From one side it shows that the act of creation by God can be the act of telling �be� like the creation of Isa Masih (as). Who is the subject here? The subject is not the word but God who TELLS the word �be�. From the other side, Quran shows us that a word of God (e.g. Isa Masih(as)) can be created by Him by telling the word �be� (Quran(3:59)).

for this reason �the word of God� refer to the word which was from the first and by him everything has been created as you can read it at the first verses of John gospel.

Neither Quran (16:40) nor first verses of John gospel are reasons for such a wrong claim. Some Christians have made the same mistake speculating that Isa Masih (as) must be God; only a wrong guess!!

This is not important if bad is crosses the prophet or remain in him, the important thing is, this is from him, from Muhammad himself.

When a bad thing crosses the prophet it is proved to be from outside not originated from inside, ponder on the requirement of crossing and colliding please. Let us also read the verses before this verse. They are about Muslims who complain about Jahad and participating in wars. They said it was from God if there were good things crossing them and from the prophet if there were bad things crossing them.  Then God blames them and said that all of them are from Allah:

Quran (4:78) " Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" If some good befalls them, they say," This is from Allah".; but if evil, they say," This is from thee"( O Prophet ). Say:" All things are from Allah." But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact?

History says that the prophet was also badly injured in wars and they eventually lost a war (Ohod Jahad) because some did not obey the prophet completely. The issue of obeying the prophet is absolutely confirmed when you read the next verse:

Quran (4:80) One who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over them.

You see? Even in these verses the issue of following and obeying the prophet is commanded. Ponder please.

you Muslims as if make him more than a human when I see you believe in his holiness from the first!

Holiness does not contradict his humanity!! The prophets are both human and holy.

I don`t believe in Doctor, I believe to God who will let him know about my problem.

This is not Mendoonellah because it is the will of Allah and is supported by Allah, and you perform it by His permission. That is why following the prophet is not Mendoonellah.

But you believe and trust on people who narrate something from 1400 years ago and now are dead!

As I said before, I disagree that every individual Muslim should rely on all narrations unconditionally.  However, denying all narrations is a worse fault. The true narrations are distinguishable. Otherwise, history is not admired at all and no historian scientist (who cites past studies) exists unless they are st**id!!!

Then �men Ghebale llah� is not in Quran , but Mendunallah is in Quran. And if it was with the same meaning of �Menallah� or �Men ladonellah� God would not say �Doon� which means �below� because its different to �Laddon� which means �completely the same� or �Men� which means �from� isn�t it?!