salaams

 

1.  If Jesus' mission was to die for our sins, why did he not just kill himself?

 

 

 

 
I don't know which denomination you belonged to but this is not what I have heard and read from mainstream Christians, Catholics and Protestants especially. 

Don't let it bug you, lol. Is it really that important anyway? Hope this helps. Salaams

I didn't mean that it was bothering me.  What can I say?  I am just a curious guy! I spend my days pontificating on theological and spiritual issues.

Its important because I am trying to understand the other perspective.  That's how one learns.  Its also important because if a Christian tries to convert me, I have some difficult questions for them in my arsenal! 
  

I hope the following link is helpful and interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_of_salvation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_of_salvation

 

It does explain quite a lot and this was my religion before I became muslim. You are right that Catholics and Protestants have completely different views to this.

 

As a child I found GOd rather confusing having been brought up in the Church of England(protestant) THe teachings did not make sense at all...all the stuff that God and Jesus were the same for example. Logically it was not possible. In my early 20's I found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to dispel all those confusing issues of mine ( I know this Church gets a lot of bad press too, but actually there are several sects that don't conform to the original Latter Day Saint organisation)

 

Anyways, read the link, perhaps it will give you another perspective.

 

Salaams Hayfa...as you've probably guessed my idea of God and Jesus is different to most Christian religions. If you look at the link above it might show you why

 

The war in heaven...

You could say Lucifer, (Satan) thought he had a chance to succeed. I always tried to look at it before that he was no different to any disobedient child,lol. And if you look at any dictator throughout history then they certainly felt/feel they have a good chance of success by bullying and evil deeds. And we know what ultimately befalls them. Disobedience to any of Allahs laws always results in their downfall...just like Lucifer(satan, shaytan)

 

 

 

Sure, God wants us to abide in Him and walk in His ways. Humans are never capable of doing so, though. Try as we might, we always mess up. We are all transgressors. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US. And you know what the Quran says about transgressors.

I think of it like the laws of nature...this idea of atonement. When something evil is done, there must be atonement for it. Even the Orientals had the same idea with the yin-yang thing. The Egyptians had it with the scales of justice. I think even Islam has such a concept.

And yet no religion has provided the scales with which to weigh such debt. How is murder properly atoned for in the eyes of God? How is lying properly atoned for in the eyes of God? How about theft? Or what about the sins of the heart like lust and hate?

The plan for salvation was contingent upon humanity's sinfulness. But since God always knew humans would be sinful, then it doesn't sound like He was dependent on anything. Omniscience, remember?

If it weren't for humans sinning and then teaching the next generations to sin (and so forth), then salvation would not be necessary. The crucifixion is OUR FAULT!

Salvation is not guaranteed in Islam. You can hope and pray for it...fearing hell and begging for Jannah...Was Muhammad even sure? (Quran 46:9) And really, being a sinner as a Muslim doesn't matter. There are more than enough Christians and Jews to take your place. [Sahih Muslim, Book 37, Numbers 6665, 6666, & 6668]

That's what I never could understand about Islam. Can you sin or can't you? Are your good and bad deeds going to be weighed? How do you determine the individual weight of each deed so that you can keep track? If all you have to do is repent and make dua, then what is to keep you from sinning? If a Christian or Jew will take your place in hell, then what is to keep you from sinning? If Islam is the only guidance given by Allah, how do you know if you are doing things perfectly or not? Why must we follow Islam? Why won't Allah personally guide each one of us?

If you truly had faith in Allah, you would not fear death, and the afterlife would not be "unknown" to you.

And no accountability? Never heard the phrase "you reap what you sow"? If you choose to be promiscuous, and you get venereal disease, it looks to me like you were held accountable for your actions. When you trust in the salvation of God and rely on guidance from the Holy Spirit and TRULY BELIEVE in the sacrifice made by Christ, the desire to sin leaves you. You are no longer a slave to selfish desires and sin.  How can you be? Imagine if you knew someone died in a terrible manner to give you eternal salvation? At that point, how could you ever think to disobey his commands? It's about love. If you love your king, you will WANT TO obey him.

So are you saying Jesus went to hell? Yes. (But the hell of Islam is not the Judeo-Christian hell. Jesus went to Sheol/Hades...not Gehenna.)

And you are right its not money, but I am asking you for a logical response. So Jesus knew he would be back in heaven so he volunteered to go down and 'die' and 'suffer' but is it really then a sacrifice he is in HEAVEN!!! He did not 'give his life' then.

Jesus knew what his heavenly reward would be for his sacrifice...but that doesn't make it any less painful or devastating. If you die a martyr, you know you will go to heaven...and yet does that make you want to be a martyr? Come on. Life is precious. Even Christ appreciated that.

We pray to God the Father in the name of the Son. God is not human. I'm wondering, why do you need Islam to have Allah forgive you? God is complete justice and mercy. He is also omniscient. What makes you think the gospel can't be preached in hell? (See 1 Peter 3:18-22.)

Where did you hear that Christians and Jews will replace Muslims in hell?? We are all determined by our own merit.

I read it here: Sahih Muslim, Book 37, Numbers 6665, 6666, and 6668. Islam has a big contradiction when it comes to the burden of sins and who will bear them. It also has a big contradiction in regards to the salvation of the people of the Book. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17357032/Is-Islam-the-Religion-of-Contradictions

If you have 100% faith and trust that someone loves you and cares for you, then you should have 100% faith that they will take care of you and save your soul.

Yeah, do you write it all down to make sure that your good deeds column is longer than your bad deeds column? Is telling a lie worth two good deeds? And if you live your life constantly questioning your intentions, it sounds to me like you are just as obsessed with sin as Christians are...if not more.

You cannot be a slave to two masters. You are either a slave to your own selfish desires or you are a slave to the will of God. You can't straddle the fence when it comes to the mastership of your spirit.

I do not think that Christianity is that different in that a Christian should follow the actions of Jesus. What did Jesus do? He lived among the poor and oppressed. He was not rich, he lived a simple life. Was he a kind man, was he caring. There are many peace activist who are Christians. They protest against the wars, etc. Many help people who need help.

And Islam is not the only guidance.. no, it is the most comprehensive and best known.

I tend not to get involved in these discussions much.. I tend to think they are more polarizing than anything. I think that people of faith would do better helping feed the homeless together or cleaning up trash than all the tit for tat stuff on this board..

Natassia: Sure, God wants us to abide in Him and walk in His ways. Humans are never capable of doing so, though. Try as we might, we always mess up. We are all transgressors. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US. And you know what the Quran says about transgressors.

The Quran says that all humans are born with a clean slate, unlike the Christian Bible.  My point was that in order for the plan of salvation to work, it required people to commit sin, something that the plan was trying to get rid of.  If this is not irony, I don't know what is.

Natassia: I think of it like the laws of nature...this idea of atonement. When something evil is done, there must be atonement for it. Even the Orientals had the same idea with the yin-yang thing. The Egyptians had it with the scales of justice. I think even Islam has such a concept.

I agree, but that does not answer why God's plan required someone to commit evil. 

Natassia: And yet no religion has provided the scales with which to weigh such debt. How is murder properly atoned for in the eyes of God? How is lying properly atoned for in the eyes of God? How about theft? Or what about the sins of the heart like lust and hate?

Islam has.  Atonement occurs in many ways.  Obviously, punishment according to the law is one way.  Other ways, as the Quran says, include asking for forgiveness, feeding the poor, freeing slaves, fasting, praying, giving charity etc. 

Natassia: The plan for salvation was contingent upon humanity's sinfulness. But since God always knew humans would be sinful, then it doesn't sound like He was dependent on anything. Omniscience, remember?

That's fine.  Of course the plan was contingent upon humanity sinfulness.  If they weren't sinful, they would not require salvation.  But there is a difference between salvation being contingent upon sinfulness and sinfulness being contingent upon salvation.  That is a big difference.  The Christian plan of salvation required sinfulness on the part of some people, which is why I also questioned Jesus could not have died in some other way, as long as death was the end result.  That is what I am concerned with. 

Natassia: If it weren't for humans sinning and then teaching the next generations to sin (and so forth), then salvation would not be necessary. The crucifixion is OUR FAULT!

Actually, according to your fellow Christian Douggg, we were born with a sinful nature.  So, how is that our fault?  It seems to me that it was really Adam and Eve's fault, since they were the ones who actually caused sin to permeate humanity in the first place. 

Natassia: Salvation is not guaranteed in Islam.

Says who?  The Quran says very clearly that if you believe in Allah and acknowledge that Muhammad (pbuh) is His messenger, then you will be saved:

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.(4:59)

The only difference is that a Muslim is also told to do good deeds and avoid bad deeds.  When a Muslim dies, his deeds are weighed against each other and if the bad deeds are more numerous, then the Muslim is sent to Hell...but not for eternity!  This is made clear by the saying of the blessed prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as mentioned in Sahih Bukhari:

"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. So they will be taken out but (by then) they will be blackened (charred). Then they will be put in the river of Haya' (rain) or Hayat (life) (the Narrator is in doubt as to which is the right term), and they will revive like a grain that grows near the bank of a flood channel. Don't you see that it comes out yellow and twisted""

So, yes a Muslim is saved in the end.  The only difference between our view and yours is that if you were to ask a Muslim the question "are you saved", the response would be "InshaAllah" or "God willing", whereas the Christian response to such a question would be "Yes, definitely!"  That is because salvation in Islam is ultimately based on God's mercy, not on our own whims.  We will not say "Yes, definitely" because that would be assuming the role of God, who is the one who ultimately decides who is saved and who is not. That is not the same as being "unsure" of salvation. 

Natassia: You can hope and pray for it...fearing hell and begging for Jannah...Was Muhammad even sure? (Quran 46:9)

Yes, he was.  But, because he was humble and truly gracious to his Lord, he prayed, asked for forgiveness and shed tears profusely.  This is indicated by the testimony of Hazrat Aisha (ra):

Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet used to offer prayer at night (for such a long time) that his feet used to crack. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why do you do it since Allah has forgiven you your faults of the past and those to follow?" He said, "Shouldn't I love to be a thankful slave (of Allah)?' When he became old, he prayed while sitting, but if he wanted to perform a bowing, he wound get up, recite (some other verses) and then perform the bowing.

In addition, when he knew his death was near, he indicated that the Lord would welcome him with open arms:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet delivered a sermon and said, "Allah gave a choice to one of (His) slaves either to choose this world or what is with Him in the Hereafter. He chose the latter." Abu Bakr wept. I said to myself, "Why is this Sheikh weeping, if Allah gave choice to one (of His) slaves either to choose this world or what is with Him in the Here after and he chose the latter?" And that slave was Allah's Apostle himself. Abu Bakr knew more than us. The Prophet said, "O Abu Bakr! Don't weep. The Prophet added: Abu- Bakr has favored me much with his property and company. If I were to take a Khalil from mankind I would certainly have taken Abu Bakr but the Islamic brotherhood and friendship is sufficient. Close all the gates in the mosque except that of Abu Bakr.

Natassia: That's what I never could understand about Islam. Can you sin or can't you? Are your good and bad deeds going to be weighed? How do you determine the individual weight of each deed so that you can keep track? If all you have to do is repent and make dua, then what is to keep you from sinning?

I have answered these questions.

Natassia: If a Christian or Jew will take your place in hell, then what is to keep you from sinning?

The fear of Allah and faith in His message.  The throwing of the unbelievers into Hell will be an act of mercy upon the believers who had a heavy debt of sinful behavior (#6668).  That does not mean that a Muslim can go on sinning, because Allah says not to sin.  So, if we do it, would would be disobeying Allah and that is never good.  Also, notice that in #6669, the sinner Muslim is asked by Allah if he acknowledges his sins.  When the Muslims admits his sins, instead of trying to make excuses, Allah will reward his humbleness by forgiving his sins:

Safwan b. Muhriz reported that a person said to Ibn 'Umar: How did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying something about intimate conversation? He said: I heard him say: A believer will be brought to his Lord, the Exalted and Glorious, on the Day of Resurrection and He would place upon him His veil (of Light) and make him confess his faults and say: Do you recognise (your faults)? He would say: My Lord, I do recognise (them). He (the Lord) would say: I concealed them for you in the world. And today I forgive them. And he would then be given the Book containing (the account of his) good deeds. And so far as the non-believers and hypocrites are concerned, there would be general announcement about them before all creation telling them that these (people, i. e. non-believers and hypocrites) told a lie about Allah.

Natassia: If Islam is the only guidance given by Allah, how do you know if you are doing things perfectly or not? Why must we follow Islam? Why won't Allah personally guide each one of us?

You follow to the best of your ability the Quran and Sunnah.  And, yes Allah does guide us as He wills.  But, that is based upon our own actions.  He only guides those who are faithful and truly yearn to do good and follow Him. 

 

Out of a desire to avoid being banned from this site, I will not tell you my opinion of that verse.  I will also not tell you why I think such a verse was "revealed" in the first place.

 

 

 

 

Name one person who has not sinned. Either sin matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't matter, then hell is pointless. If it does matter, than it just can't be written off without some sort of price being paid. Sin has to cost something...otherwise it doesn't matter.

All babies are sinless because they lack the Knowledge of Good and of Evil, and they cannot make decisions. They act purely on instinct. The plan is in place BECAUSE OF SIN. We are the problem, and the "plan" is the solution. However, it is a solution only to those who desire a personal solution.

The sinless are automatically saved from destruction. Jesus came for the sick not the righteous, remember? (Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31)

 

Yes, but how small can a lie be to be atoned for by just giving a thirsty dog some water? If I free two slaves rather than just one, then will my act of theft I committed yesterday be forgiven along with my lie?

 

Like I said before, Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy. If you are sick, you need a doctor. If you are well, then you don't. God's plan was to save us from ourselves. If we weren't so busy trying to self-destruct, we wouldn't need God to save us. God always knew how it was going to happen...and it happened just as the scriptures said it would (at least according to Christianity anyway). God didn't NEED it to happen any certain way...we did.

 

Actually, according to your fellow Christian Douggg, we were born with a sinful nature. So, how is that our fault? It seems to me that it was really Adam and Eve's fault, since they were the ones who actually caused sin to permeate humanity in the first place.

How much of our sinfulness is nature vs. nurture? How much of our sinfulness can we trace to the teachings of our parents and society? Just as it was Adam's fault that humans are all born on earth rather than the garden in heaven (yes, that's in the Quran), so it is also the fault of the first humans who sinned that the rest of us humans are doomed to follow in their footsteps. It is not that our nature is automatically sinful, but our nature is automatically equipped with the capability of sinning (it's called Free Will). Name one human with the capability of sinning who hasn't sinned (other than Jesus).

 

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.(4:59)

That doesn't guarantee anything. Besides, the Quran says that Christians and Jews and Sabiens who believe in Allah and the Last Day will go to heaven, and then recants such a statement in 3:85 and 9:29-30.

 

And yet it seems to say that Christians and Jews who say they will only be in hell for a time are fooled. (Quran 3:24) So, what is it that keeps someone from an eternity in hell? Is it belief in Allah? No, that can't be right. Even the Jews believe in God...and yet they will go to hell. So, it must be belief in Muhammad. Wow. Muhammad, then, is the savior of mankind because it is belief in him that will save you from hell.

 

If you have faith in God, then you have faith in His salvation and mercy. There is no "InshaAllah." There is only "God will because He has promised, and I believe in His Word." You either trust in His Word or you don't. There is no room for doubt.

 

Yes, he was. But, because he was humble and truly gracious to his Lord, he prayed, asked for forgiveness and shed tears profusely. This is indicated by the testimony of Hazrat Aisha (ra):

Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet used to offer prayer at night (for such a long time) that his feet used to crack. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why do you do it since Allah has forgiven you your faults of the past and those to follow?" He said, "Shouldn't I love to be a thankful slave (of Allah)?' When he became old, he prayed while sitting, but if he wanted to perform a bowing, he wound get up, recite (some other verses) and then perform the bowing.

So, Muhammad was indeed a sinner? Why should Allah simply forgive his past faults and his future faults? Why would Allah do that? Because he is merciful? What?! Mercy means injustice?

None of what you provided says that the sins of Muslims matter. All that is required is that they confess their sins on Judgment Day and Allah will automatically forgive them. So, there is no consequence for such sins as long as someone is a Muslim. Allah "conceals those sins" and "forgives them." WHY would he do such a thing? What happens to the spiritual debt? Allah just writes it off? Brushes sins aside as if they don't matter?!

 

You follow to the best of your ability the Quran and Sunnah. And, yes Allah does guide us as He wills. But, that is based upon our own actions. He only guides those who are faithful and truly yearn to do good and follow Him.

What you said makes no sense. Either we need Allah or we don't. If you are already doing all the work yourself, then what's the point of Allah? If you are faithful and doing good deeds and already following Allah, then why do you need his guidance?

 

Salaams,Yes, lets hope you get some other replies. In the least it is always good to know some beliefs of other religions. THankyou for responding to the wrong kind of ex- Christian, lol 

@ Ahke Abdullah

Well, since omniscient means all knowing and predetermination means determining in advance. Just because God knows that I will drive my car to Roanoke tomorrow doesn't mean God decided that I would do so. (And a brain can be a reliable source if what comes out of it is logical.)

"When one converts to Islam all his past sins are forgiven," you said. Well, why?

I really don't understand this at all

Can someone help me out please.

There you go again, making up your own rules.  Like I said before, the humble will say that they will be saved according to God's will ("InshaAllah"), even though they will be saved in the end.  The difference is that because of their unforgiven sins, they may have to go to Hell for a short time, after which they will be released, because that will be Allah's will.  So, it really depends on whether the question is "are you saved in the end?" or just "are you saved?" 
 
Natassia: So, Muhammad was indeed a sinner?

Only as much as Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.  Do you see a pattern?  The prophets were also capable of sinning, but as I have pointed out, there are degrees of sin.  The prophets were protected by Allah from committing the major sins, like adultery, murder or shirk, the latter of which is the worst of all.  They could still commit minor sins due to carelessness or forgetfulness, and it is those of Muhammad's sins which were forgiven.  

Natassia: Why should Allah simply forgive his past faults and his future faults? Why would Allah do that? Because he is merciful? What?! Mercy means injustice?

Because he was the final prophet, but also because of the enormous responsibilities that were placed on him.  God required more acts of worship from Muhammad (pbuh) than he does from the rest of us.  He required him to pray more, fast longer and give more in charity than others.  He was also required to live humbly, not in opulent palaces like the leaders of his day and the leaders of today as well:

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Abstain from Saum-Wisal. They (his Companions) said: Messenger of Allah, but you observe Saum Wisal. Upon this he said: You are not like me in this matter, for I spend my night (in a state) that my Lord feeds me and provides me drink. Devote yourselves to the deeds (the burden of which) you can bear.

Saum-Wisal referred to fasting beyond sunset, which the Prophet did, but it was forbidden for the rest of us, since it would be a burden most if not all of us could not bear. 

Once when Umar visited the Prophet, he saw him laying on a makeshift bed:


That is why his sins were forgiven.

So, there is a "sin scale"? Well, then some sins are worse than others; however that must mean they all must cost something. Shirk costs eternal torment. Disbelief costs eternal torment. Lying costs torment for...? 2 days? 3 years? How does that work exactly? Or if a Muslim frees a slave, then they won't have to be tormented? Well, what if they are too poor to afford slaves in the first place? This is sounding extremely complicated and confusing. Can you please provide a written Sin Scale for me along with the various punishments that go along with each sin and then the possible good deeds that I can do to make up for them in order to avoid hell?

It really sounds to me like you are your own savior. What you do determines what happens to you later. You can save yourself from hell by sticking to the rules as best you can and then performing good deeds to make up for the times you don't. I mean, at that point, what do you need Allah for?

Babies are not "tainted." Humans are not born with sin. They are born from sinful parents, and it is the sinful teachings of parents that "taint children." Humans have the ability (once they reach a certain age) to exercise free will apart from primitive instinct. It is Free Will which exposes us to sin...without it, we could not sin.

God's plan is constructed BECAUSE of sin. It's like the "What came first: the chicken or the egg?" question, except in this case we know which came first...Sin. Without sin, we would not need salvation.

You wrote: You are still forgetting that there are degrees of sin and degrees of punishment as well as redemption. For instance, if a thief is caught in the act and it is proven that he is guilty and acted not out of desperation (such as because he was hungry) but simply out of greed, then the punishment he receives his having his hand amputated. Since he got the punishment in this life, that sin was erased and he will not be held accountable for it in the next life. If, however, the thief was not caught but felt bad about it and as a result, gave back what he stole and offered to make amends to the person he stole from, and never committed the sin of theft again, that sin would be forgiven.

Why is a sin automatically forgiven just because someone feels bad about what they did? Oh, wait, you said they must give back what they stole and offer to make amends to the person...THAT is called atonement. So, atonement is required for sins in Islam...or no?

The Pharisees and Romans were evil, that is WHY they killed the Messiah. God knew they would always do such a thing, and so the ransom offered by the Messiah was accepted by God.

Sin--->plan of salvation NOT plan of salvation--->sin.

Perhaps because God doesn't want to move us around like pieces on a chessboard. Perhaps because God wants humans to be free to make their own choices. Perhaps because justice requires perfect atonement for sin, and since God KNEW the Pharisees and Romans would slaughter the perfect Lamb of God, then God in His mercy accepted the willing sacrifice of Christ for the sins of the world.

So, Allah chose Abraham based on Abraham's merits. Because Abraham was a righteous man based on his personal beliefs and logical brain, then Allah chose him? Hmmm...sounds to me like Allah is wrapped around the finger of Muslims...and the decision of Allah was dependent upon the beliefs and actions of man.

Adam and Eve sinned because they were humans? Are you saying that Allah has created man sinful? Adam and Eve sinned and started a snowball effect. I am not a sinner BECAUSE Adam and Eve were. I am a sinner because I choose to be. But for me to sin means I have to be born with the ability to sin. According to the Genesis story, it is this ability that has been passed on.

How am I not making sense? Just because I have the ABILITY to do something doesn't mean that I will do it. If you are a male, your body is naturally equipped to rape...it doesn't mean that you will ever rape someone. Free will is the ability to sin...God is the creator of all that is good, but free will allows you to pervert that which is good. It doesn't necessarily mean that you will.

You wrote: Do not quote the Quran if you don't understand what it is saying. The verse was alluding to their false belief that they would be in Hell for a certain number of days. That is because they thought that they were Godly, even when they committed the worst sins. The commentary on this verse states:

"These people [the Christians and Jews] considered themselves to be God's favourites and cherished the illusion that, regardless of what they did, they were bound to enter Paradise. They took the view that since they were believers, were descended from pious people, followed noble Prophets, and were disciples and admirers of holy men, Hell would not dare touch them. They also thought that even if they were thrown into Hell they would remain there for a few days only, to be purged of the impurity of the sins which had afflicted them, and would then be sent straight to Paradise. Such notions had made them so bold that even when they committed the most atrocious crimes and the most mortal of sins, and brazenly deviated from Truth and rectitude, their hearts remained utterly unmoved by the fear of God." http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=3&verse=21&to=30 - So, is commentary now required to make sense of the timeless, perfect, unchanging words of Allah? Words described to be perfectly clear and understandable?

Not all Jews have killed prophets. Not all Jews have altered the word of God. How about Jews born in the 7th century AD to Jewish parents who never killed anyone and never altered any scriptures? Those Jews believed in God. So again, it comes down to belief in Muhammad. It is belief in MUHAMMAD that saves a Jew...not belief in Allah. What a sad state of affairs.

I am humble. Are you insinuating that because I believe God will save me FOR SURE that I am not humble? I'm not making rules. You either know that you are saved from hell or you don't. What is this wishy-washy-ness? Where's the basic logic? So, are you saying that Muslims don't really know if God will save them from hell because they might be punished for some sins that they didn't have a chance to ATONE for?

By the way, Jesus never sinned. Perhaps that is why Allah saved him from a cruel death and whisked him up to heaven to remain with him until the final day of judgment. Perhaps that is why Jesus had the ability to cure the sick, raise the dead, and give clay birds life.

So, Muhammad's sins were forgiven because of what Muhammad did? The abilities and personal strengths of Muhammad were Muhammad's saving grace?

With all due respect, Quran 46:9 makes it VERY clear that even Muhammad did not know the future...even of his own soul.

Natassia: None of what you provided says that the sins of Muslims matter. All that is required is that they confess their sins on Judgment Day and Allah will automatically forgive them. So, there is no consequence for such sins as long as someone is a Muslim. Allah "conceals those sins" and "forgives them." WHY would he do such a thing? What happens to the spiritual debt? Allah just writes it off? Brushes sins aside as if they don't matter?!

You wrote: That will be one of the ways Allah will forgive. Some people may achieve salvation that way, whereas others will achieve it through serving time in Hell. Obviously, we are not told who is who. Therefore, the educated Muslim would continue to do good and fear Allah. 　

This all sounds very confusing. Muslims are given no guarantees. You might be shown mercy or you might not. Wow.

Okay, let's break this down:

1. Good is from Allah, not myself.

2. Evil is from me, not Allah.

3. Guidance comes from Allah.

4. Allah causes me to be good.

5. I must be good in order to prove that I have faith.

6. If I suddenly stop being good, then Allah will leave me.

But if #4 is already happening, then how could #6 ever truly happen? If Allah is what makes me good, and he is guiding me...then how can I suddenly do evil? And why would he abandon me? If I am lost and no longer on the straight path, then that is when I would need Allah the most! And why must I do #5 if Allah is omniscient? And where does #2 come from? How does evil come from me? Did Allah make me evil? If I am Allah's creation (and how could a perfect creator ever create something imperfect?), then how could he make me a certain way knowing that it would lead me to hell?

 

It is easy to label oneself anything. I called myself a Christian for 10 years...never realizing that I wasn't one. People who are members of a church frequently call themselves Christian...that doesn't mean they are. It is Christ who makes someone a Christian. You cannot make yourself one by trying to follow a set of rules.

As Jesus said, you will know a tree by its fruits. If someone is going around murdering people and yet claiming to be a Christian--what do you think? Is murder breaking Jesus' commands or following them? Christ said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." Everyone makes mistakes, but if you truly love someone are you going to do something to hurt them?

To purposefully sin after believing Christ died for your sins is like crucifying Jesus all over again.

My actions are irrelevant for my salvation; however they do prove to myself and others if my faith is what it needs to be for salvation. If I am a lying, stealing, cheating woman...then do I really have faith or is my faith "dead"? Even the demons believe Jesus did what he did...and yet they do not accept him as their Lord and Savior. That's the difference.

You forget something. It is not just belief in one God and good deeds that determine your fate...it is belief in Muhammad. He is what sets Islam apart from Judaism. Judaism already condemns sin and professes belief in a "oneness" God (whatever that really means). Judaism already requires that its followers do good deeds and avoid evil. The one thing Judaism denies is Muhammad.

Therefore, salvation in Islam is contingent on Muhammad.

　

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml - You, I believe , BELIEVE, PRAY and REPENT. Guess what, so do Muslims. There is no difference in this regard. We must believe in God, do good, repent when we fail.

Failure...as if God has expectations for His weak little creatures. How can an omniscient deity have any expectations? He already KNOWS everything.

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml - Repenting it to help us get closer to our SOURCE. When I repent, I am self-reflecting. That is what repentance is partially about. So I can improve. That is the nature to try and improve. To get closer to our Creator.

I agree with this. Repentence shows humility.

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml -

　

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml - And yes if I do bad, repent and seek to do good, then the reality is I am DOING GOOD. The reason there are different good and bad things is that we are not all born into the same circumstances. For instance, there are 27 million slaves currently enslaved in the world- and yes in the US as well. . So some people can DO GOOD and free the slave. I am born and live in a world that I do not own slaves (nor does my family). But I can do good by helping the poor. Because clearly we all are given differences in this world, we can do good with what God blessed us with.

You've still sinned. So what happens to that sin? It just goes away, like it never happened? God doesn't hold it against you? God doesn't demand justice?

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml -

　

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml - Why do you repent? If you are automatically forgiven what is the purpose for YOU to repent?

You repent once...when you acknowledge that you are a sinner and have lived a sinful life. After you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, you become baptized in the Spirit and are made anew. From then on you live in the knowledge of that forgiveness and the gift of salvation. You simply maintain your faith in God. I have weak moments, but the desire to sin has left me. The desire to give in to temptation has left me. It's amazing really. And I attribute it all to God. I didn't do a thing. He changed me: what I want to do and why I want to do it.

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml -

　

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml - Say a Christian person, commits a sin, say, a parent who is an alcoholic and neglects their children. So they pray, repent and seek strength, correct?? And try to not do it again... but they may fail again or it may change.

You cannot be a slave to two masters. When you are addicted to something, say alcohol, then alcohol has become your master. You have to ask yourself, "Do I truly have faith in God? Do I truly believe Jesus was brutally crucified and that he offered his life in place of mine? If I truly believe that, then what the h*ll am I doing?!"

See how it works? But that faith in Jesus gives you such strength, knowing that your past, present, and future sins have been forgiven: It makes me love Jesus all the more. Have you never read the story about the woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears and wiped them with her hair?

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml -

 

file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml - I guess I am not seeing that much difference in terms of the general idea. Belief- follow the tenents - pray- repent. file:///C:/Users/PINKPA~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_colorschememapping.xml - The main difference is that you believe you need belief in Jesus as God or Son of God, (I am not sure which). We believe that Jesus is a Prophet, a Messenger of God. But we belief in only God, who did not produce a �son.�

No, the main difference is that Muslims believe they can earn salvation and Christians believe it is a gift from God that must be accepted without arrogantly thinking that we can do anything to earn it.

<P dir=ltr><It really sounds to me like you are your own savior. What you do determines what happens to you later. You can save yourself from hell by sticking to the rules as best you can and then performing good deeds to make up for the times you don't. I mean, at that point, what do you need Allah for.[Akhe Abdullah]We seek refuge in Allah from the evils in which He has Created,We seek refuge in Allah from the acursed Shaytan.Only Allah can forgive sins and Accept repentence(AT-Tawwab).You being Chirstian should know that Jesus(As)can not forgive sins even on earth he could only pray for you.All good deeds are from Allah and all bad is from yourself.Surah 25:70-71) Unless he repents,believes and work righteous deeds,for Allah will change the evil of such persons Into good,and Allah is Oft-Forgiving(AL-Gaffar),Most Merciful(AL-Rahim),And whoever repents and does good Has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable)conversion[/

 

You wrote: The poor man was not burdened with an act of atonement he could not do. Not only is this justice, it is fairness. Allah will forgive anyone and allows them to atone in ways which are fair and within their means.

Don't you get it? To require a different price for the same good is not just? That would be like me walking into a store to purchase a hamburger and the guy charges me $25.00 because I am wealthy but only charges the poor man standing next to me $1.25. That is wrong.

The sin remains the same and yet the punishment for it differs based on how blessed someone is? What is that?!

You wrote: Double-think refers to accepting two beliefs which are contradictory. I did not do that, nor did I "[change] the definition of justice". It would be injustice if the rich man was not required to atone for his sins whereas the poor man was, or vice-versa. Clearly, that is not the case. Regardless of one's status, they are required to atone for their sins. The only difference is that not everyone is able to atone in the same way. That is a fact of life. A poor man cannot free a slave. It would be unjust to require that from a poor person. So Islam, in its practicality, offers other ways.

I apologize. The word I wanted to use was double-SPEAK. You use the word "justice" but mean it differently than the traditional (and modern) definition of the word. You are saying that Allah's justice is limited to the convenience level of humans. Wow. That causes me to lose respect for Allah, to be perfectly honest with you.

You wrote: Justice is in the eye of the beholder. Can you provide me with a universal charter on justice? Does every nation, race or ethnic group have the same version of justice?

Do you regard the Christian system to be just? Tell me why Jesus released the adulteress? How was that just? (We will not even get into the fact that the story is made up; I am bringing it up for argument's sake).

Justice = equal treatment in the eyes of the law. A man is subjected to the same laws as a woman. A believer is subjected to the same laws as a non-believer.

Ah yes, the story in John. Nevermind that the point of the story was to address the hypocrisy of sinners who stand in judgment over other sinners. Well, for argument's sake then...

Christianity is not a political ideology, nor is it meant to be applied as a governing law or legislation. In other words, the theology of Christianity is based on a personal relationship with God...not the establishment of a State. It teaches the individual believer how to live a righteous life in Christ...and how to treat others. However, throughout the Bible you will find clues as to what justice means to God:

Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. (Leviticus 19:15)

It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice. (Job 34:12)

It is not good to be partial to the wicked or to deprive the innocent of justice. (Proverbs 18:15)

Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. (Isaiah 1:17)

They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name. (Amos 2:7)

Hate evil, love good; maintain justice in the courts. (Amos 5:15)

This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.' (Zechariah 7:9-10)

Humans are not to go around punishing people for sin. Sin is a transgression of moral law. Sin is not necessarily a crime. Just as a Muslim is thought to commit a sin if they neglect their prayers, it is not considered a crime under shariah law. The Torah (along with the Oral Law) was the Israelite's first constitution and set of moral and criminal laws. They defined sin as well as provided a penal code for the Hebrews. However, the crime & punishment laws did not apply to Gentiles. There is no crime and punishment in Christianity. So what God urges us to do is administer justice in our courts and in our laws. And justice means fairness. Separation of Church and State is perfectly compatible with Christianity.

You wrote: Why not? He will pay for the sins he did not atone for, will he not? However, his eventual saving grace will be his faith in Allah.

And yet a Christian cannot atone for his sins. This is not just. There is nothing just about an eternal, physical torture chamber for human beings.

You wrote: I assume, by your words, that you believe that every good person goes to Heaven, regardless of religion. Is this correct? So, do you believe that a good Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Sikh, and Atheist will also go to Heaven?

No one is good but God. Eternal life is a gift, and the wages of sin is death. You don't want God? He's not going to force Himself on you. You think you can earn your way to heaven? That's an insult to God's glory, perfection, and holiness.

You wrote: I never said they did. Obviously, modern Jews had nothing to do with Jesus' attempted execution, for example. But, they do still reject him as a false prophet, don't they? They do still regard the execution as proof that Jesus was a false prophet. Do you believe that they can still go to Heaven with such a mindset? Of course, there were many Jews in Jesus' time who followed him. There were many Jews before Jesus who did not kill the prophets and followed them. They were true believers and they will be in Heaven, inshaAllah.

So Allah sends people to ETERNAL PHYSICAL TORTURE for their mindset?

You wrote: And this brings up the "chosen people" status. They would like us to believe that God prefers them over all other nations. I just had this discussion with the apocalyptic fanatic Douggg on another thread.

By believing that Allah only sent Hebrew prophets, and considers the Jews to be the "chosen people", in effect superior to all other people, they utter yet another lie against Allah. This is another factor of their disbelief.

Don't get me started on Judaism. I'm not a fan of -isms at all, in fact. However, I could have sworn that the Quran calls Muhammad the best of humanity...and says that believers are the best of all people. So the Jews feel they have a special status for being Jewish, and the Muslims believe they have a special status for being a part of the Islamic Ummah. I see nothing different here except that one is an ethnicity & religion and the other is a religion & political ideology.

You wrote: I am condemning them for the corruption they have added to the Word of God. God does not prefer one race over all others. God sent prophets to all races. It is not up to the Jews to reject them simply because they were not Jews.

Ah ah ah. You are making an unsubstantiated claim. If corruption has been added to the Word of God (as you call it), please tell me what it is that is corrupted. Show me which parts have been corrupted and explain why you believe they are wrong.

You wrote: So, do you believe that Jews can go to Heaven even if they do not accept Jesus as their savior? Does the same apply for Muslims, Sikhs, and Zoroastrians, who also profess the belief in one God?

Without a Savior, all of us are lost. We cannot earn salvation. To think so is arrogant and insulting to God (considering He is our Savior). I believe all people who would accept the gospel and salvation through Christ will be exposed to it somehow...whether on earth or in the grave. Everyone else will be judged based on the sins they have committed according to the Law of God. So, you have a choice: guaranteed salvation or judgment.

You wrote: Regarding your claim that Christians worship one God followed by the period, I would actually add ellipses. You know, "Christians believe in one God...They believe in Jesus Christ and so on." The Christian concept of monotheism is pathetically skewed. God sends Himself in an inferior form (the Son) and prays to His superior form (the Father). Yeah, that's monotheism alright!

LOL! Oh the double-standard.

Muslims believe in one God...They believe in Muhammad and so on. What is your shahadah? Ah yes, Allah AND Muhammad. What is it the Quran says? "To obey the Messenger is to obey Allah?" Why are Jews condemned? For not believing in Muhammad and 'Isa. Why are Christians condemned? For not believing in Muhammad and for believing in Jesus.

If Allah chose to raise up a human being to be his exalted servant for all humanity to be subservient to...would you have a problem with it? Of course not, because this is what you believe about Muhammad. He has been exalted above all the other Prophets as the Final Messenger and Seal of the Prophets. He has been exalted as the best of humanity for all people to emulate. By believing in his revelations: the Quran and Hadith, you can go to heaven. By following in his footsteps, you are obeying Allah.

You wrote: Those same historians and scholars will admit that Christianity borrowed elements of pagan religions to invent the myth of the savior coming to die for everyone's sins.

Explain that one...and Zeitgeist doesn't count since it has been debunked more times than I can count.

And tu quoque doesn't work on me. Islam incorporates paganism.

You wrote: Islam is pure monotheism. The supposedly "pagan" elements within it were originally monotheistic, but which had been adopted by the pagans when paganism became dominant in Arabia. Of course, they all added some things to those monotheistic elements with pagan elements. For instance, some pagan women used to do tawaf nude. Do you see Muslims doing that?

Talk about BEGGING THE QUESTION! How were the supposedly "pagan" elements originally monotheistic? You have no proof that there ever was monotheism originally in Arabia until AFTER the birth and spread of Judaism. You have no proof Abraham ever set foot in the Arabian peninsula, and you have no proof that Ishmael was the father of the Arabs or even a monotheist himself.

You wrote: So, whats your point? Are you arguing on behalf of a universalist, "every religion is a path to God," theology?

No, I'm asking you to back up your claim that the Quran is the Word of God since by it you condemn disbelieving monotheists (and others) to hell.

You wrote: So, do you accept the concept or not?

Original sin is the key to the whole crucifixion scenario. If one does not believe in it, then one has no reason to believe that the crucifixion serves any purpose. Paul was big on the whole thing.

How can original sin be the "key" to the whole crucifixion scenario when the term isn't even in the Bible?

I do not believe that humans are born unrighteous/sinful. I believe that humans are born from sinful parents and are born with the ABILITY to sin (aka Free Will.) Find me one man who has not sinned. Remember that "fabricated" story in John about the adulteress? Guess what, there is truth in it. No man (or woman) is without sin. The only one believed to have lived perfectly according to God's Law is Jesus Christ.

You wrote: Well, does He not know best? Do you feel that you know all the secrets of the universe, and what the future holds? Don't you feel that Allah indeed knows best? Careful how you answer. You don't want to elevate yourself to His level. That's dangerous territory.

God knows ALL. However, I don't use it as a cop out for questions I can't answer.

You wrote: And I'm laughing at your pathetic false analogy. God's actions are not the same as the actions of humans, are they? How many babies were actually there, if any? If you recall the account in Genesis, Abraham asks God if He would spare the city if there were 50 righteous people living there. The number was eventually reduced to 10. So, clearly there were not many babies there, if there were any at all. But, the point is that God knows what He is doing. He has forbidden us to kill babies. But, of course, babies die all the time, whether from disease or other reasons which are under the control of God.

Woo-hoo. You've quoted Genesis in order to back up your claim that God's actions are not the same as humans' actions. If that's the case...care to explain how there couldn't be ANY righteous people (including small children and babies) living in Sodom if there is no Original Sin? (I have an answer to that question; I'm just curious to hear yours.)

So, from what you've said, you cannot determine that the death of a baby or a child is necessarily "evil," correct? Especially if it is the will of God?

You wrote: I think it would have been more appropriate if you had alluded not to when God personally destroyed cities, but to when He ordered His followers to destroy cities and eliminate all within. But then, you would not bring that up, would you? It's in the Bible isn't it? How many nations were eliminated by the Israelites under the supposed orders of God? How many of the victims were babies?

To come back to the original point, I am glad you admit that the crucifixion was evil and that God used it for the fulfillment of His plan of salvation.

Oh, we can talk about Numbers and Judges all day if you'd like. I think the Israelites were just as wicked as many of their pagan neighbors...especially when they started sacrificing their own children to Molech and participating in temple prostitution.

The crucifixion of Christ was an evil act that the Almighty God was able to use to bring good for all humanity. God was not dependent on it. We are. If He had not forgiven us based on what Christ did, then we would all stand condemned on the day Christ died.

You wrote: Another false analogy! Sex has infinitely more benefits. Without it, we could not survive. This is a matter of fact Crucifixion was a form of torture and execution, and only once was it supposedly used for the greater good (if you believe that)! This is a matter of faith. They are not the same.

You don't understand, do you? I'm saying that something which is good may be used for evil, and something that is evil can be used for good. Killing a human being is an evil act; however sometimes it is the right thing to do if you are protecting an innocent child from a rapist.

You wrote: It seems to me that it was unnecessary to even use the evil of people to the benefit of the plan of salvation. The same end could have been achieved through some other means.

You keep repeating this point when I have refuted it already. God is dependent on nothing. If God chooses to allow us to exercise our free will and does not want to impede our exercise of it in any way...and yet He wants to provide a means of salvation that MAKES SENSE and fulfills the Law and the Prophets....then He might use the evil actions of humans in His plan.

Think about this story: David committed a heinous act when he slept with Bathsheba and had her husband killed...and he was punished for it. However, the product of their marriage was Solomon....the wisest king to rule the earth. Your mind is stuck in that one-way timeline, cause-and-effect thing. God sees all and knows all. How can you think to know the mind of God and determine His "dependence" on things?

Perhaps I can provide a Quranic example. Before Allah created Adam, he announced that he was making a viceroy for earth. The angels questioned his judgment because they knew humans would be violent. Allah rebuked the angels because they did not know all that he knows. So, he created Adam and put him in a garden in heaven, not earth. He also placed a tree in that garden and told Adam not to eat of it. Well, Adam did. And when he did, he was thrown to earth to live there in enmity.

Was Allah dependent on the disobedience of Adam in order to ensure that he would be a viceroy for earth?

You wrote: And every other prophet before him. And it makes perfect sense.

Why is it that everything he said is automatically rejected by you? Biased, are we Natassia?

I reject someone who preaches one thing and does another.

Natassia: But see, Allah shows me that fornication is wrong, and yet he shows me that Muslim men may sleep with their slaves. He shows me that adultery is wrong, and yet he shows me that Muslim men may sleep with their married captives. He shows me that having more than four wives is wrong, and yet he shows me that Muhammad could have nine at one time. He shows me that Jews and Christians will not bear the burdens of anyone's sins but their own, and yet he shows me that a Jew or Christian will take the place of a Muslim in hell as mercy for that Muslim.

You wrote: More false analogies.

They are not false analogies. They are not analogies at all. You said Allah shows us what is right and wrong. I'm saying he has provided a pretty confusing picture.

You wrote: Now this is called double-thinking! You can't be perfect and imperfect at the same time, nor can you have the ability to be perfect and imperfect at the same time. The two contradict each other. None of us can be perfect. It is impossible.

Ah, see...you claim that we are born imperfect. I claim that we make ourselves imperfect. Free will gives us the ability to be perfect or imperfect. How we exercise free will determines our perfection or imperfection. You say it is impossible to be perfect. Why? Is that because of Original Sin or is that Allah's fault for making us imperfect in the first place (which is the definition of Original Sin! lol)

God said: Be perfect. Humans said: I can't because I don't want to be.

You wrote: Obviously, they gave into their unhealthy views just that once. Are you saying that even a male infant has the ability to be a rapist (not that he could because he is so little and not even aware of his surroundings)? After all, male infants have a penis.

Are you saying that every woman is therefore a potential whore?

Man, do you even know what the definition of "ability" means? It means having the capability to do something. A man is physically capable of raping a woman because he has a penis. He may not necessarily be emotionally or spiritually capable of it. And that's where the goodness of God comes in.

You wrote: When you don't have a valid response, you make silly statements. Obviously, those words still apply today since they will remind modern Jews and Christians of their roots, just as they did to those in Muhammad's time.

More conjecture. Nothing to back it up.

You wrote: When did I say always? I don't think the original followers of Jesus called themselves by the blasphemous term "Christians". This was a later invention.

I guess the 1st century Acts of the Apostles was a complete fabrication then...as were the epistles of Paul written before 60 AD.

You wrote: Obviously, they would not be able to fight the Jews and Christians of the past! This was a reference to the contemporaries of the early Muslims, who obviously were unbelievers. It was specifically revealed, if my memory serves me correctly, after the Byzantines executed a Muslim messenger and attacked a small Muslim army.

No. The story goes that some non-Muslim Arabs (Jordanian area) executed some Muslim "missionaries." When Muhammad heard about it, he sent like 3,000 soldiers to fight...and they met up with about 100,000 (?) Byzantine soldiers. That was the Battle of Mutah. Yeah, that didn't turn out so good.

But, see, that story is not in the Quran. Should it be?

You wrote: And he proved it in many ways. See, this is why people who reject him as God's messenger are doomed. They disbelieve in him even though he provided evidence of the divine hand that was guiding him.

How? The Quran says he was just a warner...nothing more. What evidence of divine guidance?

You wrote: Because you would be lying yourself, and thus you are a hypocrite, which is even worse than being an unbeliever. You would be lying about Muhammad and also about God, the latter of which is the worst possible thing to do.

How does that make me a liar and a hypocrite? A hypocrite is someone who says, for example, that they don't believe in something and yet they really do...or says they do believe in something and yet they really don't.

I say I don't believe in Muhammad, and I really don't. I say I do believe in God, and I really do. How does that make me a hypocrite and a liar?

You're changing the definition of words again.

You wrote: Nonsense. This is the kind of self-contradictory nonsense Christians want other people to believe. Jesus can't do anything himself, and yet he is still God! The Father is in him, and yet Jesus prays to Him!

Wow...spiritual stagnation is quite something to witness. God is spirit. Therefore God can be in someone and yet not BE that someone. The Spirit of God was in Christ. That doesn't mean the Spirit of God is Christ.

And Christians would like everyone to be freed by believing in the gospel. However, we won't fight you for rejecting it or kill people for leaving Christianity.

You wrote: Wrong again. Jesus (pbuh) never elevated himself to the level of God. That was the work of blasphemours and heretics after him. Muhammad (pbuh) never elevated himself to the level of God. When he said that to obey him is to obey God, he was saying that whatever laws he was bringing, were coming from God. So therefore, to follow those laws which Muhammad (pbuh) had enacted and told the Muslims to follow, was to follow God because they were His laws. Your repeated attempts at twisting the facts exposes how little you know and it also exposes to what lengths you will go to utter lies against God and His last messenger.

Whoa-ho-ho. To say that the words you speak are God's words...and the commands you give are God's commands...and salvation is contingent on belief in you...well, you're either God or you're a mad-man.

And there you go with unsubstantiated claims. Which parts of the gospels and epistles are heretical and blasphemous? Would you doubt the sincerity of Muhammad's companions and earliest followers?

Natassia: One question to start off: Is morality absolute in Islam?

You wrote: Could you be more specific? This is a very vague question (perhaps this was intentional on your part).

How is this vague? It is a yes or no question. Morality is absolute in Christianity. Morality is relative in atheism, nihilism, and secular humanism. So, what about Islam?

You wrote: Flaws as in having no weakness, like God. God has no flaws. He does not need to eat, drink, sleep, rest, go to the bathroom, feel any urges, feel any temptations to commit a sin, feel any pain or weakness, etc. That is perfection. Do you think humans are perfect?

What is perfection in the eyes of God, in your view?

Having to eat is a flaw? That's just the nature of having a physical body. It's not a flaw. To say so is to question the Designer. Are you calling His design flawed? Humans are imperfect when they sin. Feeling pain, sorrow, anguish, etc. are not flaws.

P.S. This is getting to be a bit long and tedious. Can we condense it or something?

¹⁰ " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife�with the wife of his neighbor�both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10) [the very next chapter!]

 

Justice = This is the law, this is the punishment for it.  Period.

Not, this is the law, this is the punishment for it if you are rich, and this is the punishment for it if you are poor.

Not, this is the law only if you are female.

There is no logic behind that. Where's the LOGIC?

"A woman has a different law to follow."

Why?

"Because the law applies differently to women."

Circular reasoning.

You can try to justify it with:

1. Because women are deficient in religion.

3. Because women are dependent on men financially as well as for protection.

But these are all disproven by the woman who has never had a period, who has one of the highest IQs in the world, is financially dependent on no one because she earns a 7-figure salary, and protects herself by being an expert Judo fighter and carrying a concealed handgun.

So the only excuse you have left is...you guessed it: Allah knows best. Wow...and on to the illogical statement of: This is the law because Allah said it is, and it is perfect justice because it comes from Allah. If that is the case, then what is justice in America? Is it evil when we afford women equal rights and equal justice? It must be evil if it goes against the laws of Allah.

Do you really think God's timeless, never-ending laws should have instructions for how you should visit Muhammad? What is that? Obviously you have to use human logic to determine that this divine law no longer applies since Muhammad is dead.

God's Law is about MORALITY...not about determining crime and punishment. Where in the Quran does it say that it is against the law to speed on the highway? Yeah, God didn't think about that, did he? Where in the Quran does it mention DNA testing to determine paternity? It doesn't. In fact, Muhammad said that the child born in a marriage is automatically the product of that marriage if there were no witnesses to adultery. Nevermind that the milkman could have stolen a quickie one morning.

I have communicated with God. Is that so outrageous? When I pray, I communicate with Him. When He comforts me, He communicates with me. When He convicts me regarding a conflict in my life, He communicates with me. I have an interactive relationship with my God. Isn't that the way it should be?

What do you mean "not providing the correct interpretation"? What is the correct one? I'm not a Jew, therefore the application of Jewish criminal law has nothing to do with me. Please research the Noahide laws...there was nothing in there about punishment. Just morality. Any Jew will tell you that THOSE are the ones that apply to Gentiles (according to Judaism, anyway), not the Torah. However, the Torah does reiterate them.

Why does God treat Jews differently? Because He had a specific purpose for them. He chose the Israelites, but they had to agree to the covenant. And they did. They gave a verbal agreement. Haven't you read the Torah?

You made an interesting point, and I'm going to hold you to it:

You wrote: In your little mind. For sure, adultery and murder are major sins, but they can not be worse than worshiping others besides God. Who told us that adultery and murder are wrong? God! So how does it sound to say that worshiping Baal or Hubal or Jesus is not that bad compared to adultery and murder?

So, what we have here is your agreement that it is the Law which defines what God we are following. If a god tells us that it is okay to commit adultery, then we can rule it out as a false god, right? If we have a god telling you to commit murder, then we can rule it out as a false god, right?

So, now we have to define what is "adultery" and what is "murder." Care to do that for me?

Rejecting God's chosen is simply an expected response by someone who has rejected God. If you truly KNOW God, then you will KNOW His chosen. I agree with your similar statements. However, even in the Old Testament, it is your transgressions that condemn you to hell.

As heat and drought snatch away the melted snow, so Sheol snatches away those who have sinned. (Job 24:19)

Let death take my enemies by surprise; let them go down alive to Sheol, for evil finds lodging among them. (Psalm 55:15)

The Jews are just as cursed as the Gentiles are. By breaking one law, they become sinners and no better than anyone else. (Deuteronomy 27:26)  Like I've said elsewhere in this forum: The Jews were chosen for a specific purpose: the Messiah.

I think of it like this: If I want to eventually bring forth a perfectly white dog out of a pack of currently white dogs, am I going to want them to mix with the brown, tan, black, yellow, red, etc. dogs? No. God has set certain laws in place: both physical and spiritual, and I think He prefers to do things according to the rules. If He didn't, then He'd never let a hurricane devastate a country to the point that innocent babies and children were killed.  God made Israel holy so that the Messiah would also be holy.

Regarding: false gods....I don't have any. I haven't created any for myself. I worship ONE God and all that He is. I worship His "right hand." I worship His Word. I worship His Spirit. If you want to turn those into three gods, well then you are playing semantics and that petty stuff doesn't mean much to me.  All three "gods" (as you call them) are defined by the same Laws.

By the way, do you know when the Book of Jubilees was written? There's a reason Jews don't consider it part of their canon of scripture. There's a reason Christians don't either. Anyone can write stories to embellish on older ones--which is what the Book of Jubilees is--it is an embellishment....kind of like the Gospel of Barnabas. It's not even in the Greek Septuagint. So what Josephus did was quote a 2nd century BC book to validate his beliefs about the Arabs which he likely formulated based on their behavior and how it coincides with the description of Ishmael in Genesis. Again, Josephus was not an anthropologist, and the book of Jubilees was written thousands of years after Abraham.

Christianity does not incorporate paganism. Now, if human beings have chosen to create their own religion around Christ like Roman Catholicism and incorporate pagan traditions, then that is another story. However, you cannot prove that Christianity ITSELF incorporates paganism. Please, find where in the scriptures it tells Christians to do anything remotely "pagan" (as in, man-made and wicked)?

Regarding Psalms and the Ka'aba: Obviously you don't know Judaism, and you are not familiar with the Tanakh. God LITERALLY dwelled in the Temple. His glory was contained in the Ark of the Covenant. His presence was separated from the people by a heavy curtain. So, the verse about God dwelling within His house is NOT a metaphor--not by Jewish or Christian interpretation. Only Muslims interpret it that way.

If God dwells in His house, and the Ka'aba is His house, then God must dwell in the Ka'aba. If He doesn't, then your entire premise of this passage being about Mecca is false.

And regarding the argument about the temple having not been built: you never heard of the "Tent of Meeting"?

Look, either this passage is metaphorical or it is not. If it is metaphorical, then you can't prove it is about Mecca at all simply on the basis of a similarity in names. That's insane. How many people named "Immanuel" could then look at Isaiah and claim that it is about them? If it is literal, then you can't prove it is about Mecca because Zion has never been in Arabia. You are working backwords.

First, you claim that Mecca is the holy land, and the Ka'aba is the metaphorical house of Allah. Then, you look into the Jewish scriptures and pick out a passage that speaks of a valley named after "weeping" or "balsam trees." Because the name in HEBREW is similar to an ARABIC name, you've determined that it must be about Mecca. Anything else in the passage that would refute such a claim is denounced as fabricated.

Wow. That's like a scientist looking at a dog and a cat and determining that because they both have four legs and fur, then they must also have the same ancestor.

"Why do I quote the Bible as the word of God?" When have I done such a thing? You've asked me about Christian theology. Christian theology is based on the Bible, therefore I quote the Bible. There is a lot of wisdom to be found within those scriptures...and a basic "game plan" that makes a whole lot of sense to me. They also confirm what God has been putting upon my heart. So, whether they are the verbatim words of God (which I deny) or the words of men inspired by their belief in God (which I affirm)...the end result is the same.

My belief in God is based upon my personal, spiritual experiences in life. I know God exists because of what He has done for me in my life. It was He who directed me to particular passages in the Bible and instilled upon my heart the truth of them. Do I tell people that they must believe the way that I do? No. I can only give my testimony and leave the rest up to God. It was through God that I found Christ, and it was through Christ that I found healing, rest, and salvation.

Regarding the Byzantine/Persian "prophecy":  Since when did "turn the tide" mean victory? When DEFEAT occurs, it is after the tide has been turned and the enemy is DEFEATED....not still fighting.

The problem with the so-called prophesies that you mention, like conquering Mecca, is that there as always only two possible outcomes. Muhammad set his sights on Mecca. He amassed a large following and commanded fighters. He told them, "We will have Mecca again." He had already decided that he was going to make war on the pagans there. So, either the Muslims would lose and the "prophecy" would go unfulfilled, or the Muslims would win and the "prophecy" would be fulfilled. What Muhammad was telling his men was no more than military propaganda to raise morale. That's not a prophecy. If I know that I am going to take a test tomorrow, I can prophesy that I will pass. If I pass the test the next day, does that make me a prophet?

So, are you telling me that MUHAMMAD split the moon? Did he really SPLIT it?

There is no set definition for "original sin." Catholics believe one thing, Protestants another...orthodox, something else... ((shrug)) So, stop telling me that I have the wrong definition when there are multiple ones and the term is not even in the scriptures to begin with.

A sinful soul gets the death penalty...the ultimate punishment. (Unless, of course, you are a fan of torture. However, humans are the creators of torture. God is not a God of torture.)

Are you now telling me that ALL of the Sodomites were 100% homosexual? At some point, every single member of that city stopped having sex with the opposite sex?! Okay, let's think about that for a minute.

Let's say the city was first created by 100 individuals: 50 men, 50 women. They populated the city with children. The city grew and expanded (because that's what happens when humans propogate.) Then one day, everyone turned gay. Everyone. The teenagers, their parents, and their grandparents. No more propogation.

Wow. That's one helluva story.

Or do you think that a large group of homosexuals from a pagan nation all got together and decided to make Sodom a home for themselves and then God decided to wipe them out a few years later?

Regarding the slaughter of innocents: Am I trying to justify it? No. I'm just looking at it from a simplistic, cause-and-effect point-of-view and 20/20 hindsight. If you knew that your next-door neighbor's baby was going to grow up to kidnap, rape, torture, and murder your daughter...would you kill him before that happened?

See, here you said: "If they were sinful, God would have handled them Himself."

Well, with one sentence you have completely undermined shariah law. Congratulations.

Here's how it works: Physical life-->death-->the grave (Sheol/Hades)-->judgment-->eternal destruction. This eternal destruction is also where the grave and death itself are destroyed forever.

Okay, I understand the salvation by being close to God. I get that. It's this whole submitting part. I submit to God in my life. I pray that His will be done and that I live my life according to His will. I do my utmost to keep His commandments:

Do unto others as I would have them do to me.

Love the Lord my God with all my heart, and all my soul, and all my mind.

Love my neighbor as myself.

Honor my father and my mother.

Do not steal.

Do not bear false witness.

Do not commit adultery.

Do not murder.

However, Muslims believe that in order to submit to God, they must submit to the Sunnah of Muhammad. That's where I get tripped up. Muhammad's Sunnah = the will of Allah. Muhammad's way of life becomes divine...which must mean that Muhammad was divine. If he wasn't, then the Sunnah is imperfect...since only God is perfect, right? And if the Sunnah is imperfect, then the will of Allah is imperfect.

So, worshiping Jesus as my Lord and Savior makes me a worse sinner in the eyes of Allah than the serial rapist who believes in Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger? Dude. My brain, heart, nor soul can wrap around that.

How does knowledge convict us of sin? Think about it. If you know in your heart that torturing that young woman over there is wrong because it would cause her pain, and you know that you wouldn't like it if someone did that to you...well, then if you decide to torture her anyway, you've sinned. It doesn't take a written code to tell you that rape is wrong. However, if you have no concept of empathy or logic (like an animal, for example) then you cannot sin because what you are doing is instinctual and primitive. Except for perhaps the severely mentally retarded and very young children, all humans are instilled with the ability to empathize.

What Adam and Eve did was to disobey God. Disobeying God is a sin. He said, do not eat of that tree. They knew they shouldn't do that, but they did it anyway. When they ate of the tree, that is when they realized their sin of disobedience. Now all of us humans have the ability to know when we have done something wrong. Our own hearts will convict us of it. We can try to justify things in our minds (which is what Adam and Eve tried to do), but deep down we will always know that what we did was wrong.

You wrote: No, I was questioning your claim that we were created perfect. We cannot be perfect. God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree and not to listen to Satan's deceptions. Obviously, He knew they were vulnerable to Satan's whispers. There is a difference between being born "perfect" and being born "sinless". Islam teaches that we are all born sinless, with a clean slate but that we are vulnerable to sin, because of environment and Satan's whispers.

We are playing semantics with this word "perfect." So, I will drop this point since I think our definitions are different. What you have just told me is that God made Adam and Eve in such a way that would leave them vulnerable, and then He planted a tree, and then He allowed Satan to tempt them....all for what? Why make creatures vulnerable to an environment and a Satan He created only to torment them forever if they prove themselves vulnerable to the sin of idolatry?

The Bible is the words of men inspired by their belief in God and their interactions with Him. All of them agreed on the fact that God wants His people to be holy. That's something I can trust because God is holy, and it makes sense that we need to be holy if we want to be in His presence.

I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy.....therefore be holy, because I am holy. (Leviticus 11:44-45)

Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy. (Leviticus 19:2)

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

Just to name a few.

How can Paul contradict me? He came first. I can only contradict him. Have I contradicted him? ((shrug)) It's quite possible. I do wish you could provide a specific example though.

How did poetry lead to the killing of people? Obviously there must have been some truth to it if it stirred up the anger of the pagans. Look, I hear bad poetry, songs, books, speeches, etc. all the time. Does that mean I'm going to take a shotgun and go kill people? No. And if I did, should that poet be executed for my crimes?

What kind of poison takes three years to kill? Oh, any. A drug might not kill you but it can cause kidney, liver, and or heart damage that will kill you within a matter of a few years. Who said that the poison was spread throughout the meat evenly? Maybe his buddy got a huge amount of it and Muhammad only got a trace. Who knows. However, Muhammad himself admitted that it was the poison that was killing him. Or was he wrong?

I wonder if you have every heard of the Arabic Infancy Gospel? It originated in the 6th century. The Gnostic Gospels were circulating the Roman Empire by the late 2nd century. Would it be so hard to believe that such stories circulated to Syria and even Arabia by the 7th century? Let's not work backwards here.

You begged the question again. You said that the Quran came to correct the Judeo-Christian stories. If that's the case, what does that make the Gnostic Gospels and apocryphal writings that came after them? You are having to assume that the Judeo-Christian stories were corrupted, but the Gnostic Gospels somehow became less corrupted despite the fact that they were based on Hellenism and were not sanctioned by Christ's earliest followers.

I'm glad you brought up that parable in Luke. I am hoping you could break it down for me logically, verse-by-verse, and explain your interpretation. Let's start by assigning real people for the metaphorical characters and we can go from there.

I have read all of surah 9. I can logically prove to you that 9:5 is not about self-defense. It is about aggressive warfare taken out on people who are not currently attacking Muslims.

Do the "persons" of God have different personalities? They have different purposes and manifestations. Are they equal? Define equal (since Muslims have a funny way of looking at that word. They say men and women are equal--they're just different.)

What is it with this "corruption" word? I can't read anything written by a Muslim about Christianity or Judaism without seeing that word being thrown around. What do you mean by corruption? Do you mean that evil is interjected into something good? I mean, that's always what I've taken the word to mean. If I download a virus onto my computer, I've corrupted the system software. If I bribe a judge to give me a not-guilty verdict, I've corrupted the judicial system. So, care to explain this "corruption" word for me so that I don't misunderstand your meaning?

Jesus did make an important lesson which was reiterated by the adulteress story. See Matthew 7:1-5. Besides, have you really examined that story? Didn't you realize what was going on in it? If you read the Torah, you would know that the adulteress AND the adulterer are to be stoned by the community. If you recall, there's no mention of an adulterer in that story. So, it looks to me like they were breaking the law of the Torah, not to mention undermining the authority of the Romans.

The law says to not bear false witness against your neighbor. In other words, you cannot tell a falsehood that could potentially hurt someone. Would you agree that this is the same in Islam?

You wrote: So, do you consider it scripture or not? Is the Bible the word of God or not? If we were made in the image of God, would we not all look the same? What about the whole male and female thing?

The scriptures are what they are. Unfortunately, we humans try to make them out to be more, or sometimes less, than what they are. However, this is yet another concept (like the be holy one) that is reiterated throughout the scriptures.

I thought we both agreed that humans are physically not like God. We are in His image spiritually. However, let's not forget what an image is. An image is a likeness, but it is not the real thing. We are a shadow of what we potentially can be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You wrote: Was he sent by God or he chose to go? Did not God "send" his only "son"?

Jesus is FROM God. Jesus is God's Word in the flesh. He was sent by the Father, and he chose to be the sacrifice when the time came.

You wrote: And as I said he did not sacrifice anything as he is in heaven with all the other prophets.

He sacrificed his life. He bore humanity's sins. He died a humiliating death and went to the grave for three days.

 

A. He never did die according to both Muslims and Christians , so where is the sacrifice?

According to Christians, Jesus did die.

　

B: If he "volunteered" to go then he is SEPRARATE from God? Why would God need to "volunteer" himself for sacrifice. God is God.

God the Father is a separate "person" from the Son. Jesus is not the physical reproduction of God. Jesus is the spiritual manifestation of God within a human being. Why would God need to "volunteer'' Himself for sacrifice? If God's Law requires atonement for sins, and yet He doesn't want His precious creation to have to pay the price, then why not fulfill the Law Himself so that He may redeem and save His people?  God is a God of perfect justice.  He doesn't want us to break His Law, so I seriously doubt He would break His own and allow people's sins to be "washed away" simply because they believe in a man calling himself the messenger of God.

It's only illogical if you believe God's Law doesn't matter and can be broken without a price being paid.  It's only illogical if you do not believe God is a just God.

　

So, is it permitted to use falsehoods and deception in order to assassinate someone? If someone is accused of committing a crime, shouldn't they first be found guilty by a judicial system and then executed according to the law? How is it justice to plot an assassination, use lies to deceive the person into trusting you, and then kill him in cold blood?

What ARE you talking about? LOL

I'm talking about the murder of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf.

But why does" God" need to communicate with God?? God sees and knows all. Then are there two?? Then Jesus cannot be God.

There are not two Gods. There is one God in three "persons." Jesus is God, but so is the Father as well as the Holy Spirit. However, God is not just Jesus or just the Father or just the Holy Spirit. God is all three.

I wish I could come up with a logical analogy...

Try thinking of it like this...when your skin feels pain, how do you know it? Messages sent by nerves to the brain, right? So, your skin communicates with your brain via nerves, and so YOU then feel pain...and you are all three of those things: skin, brain, and nerves. You are not just your skin or just your brain or just your nerves. YOU are all three of those things working together. Can you be "you" without your nerves? Certainly. But then your skin will not communicate with your brain and so what happens to your skin (like a burn) doesn't really affect you in the sense that you would feel physical pain. You would, however, notice the burn and if someone did it to you on purpose, then you would feel the emotional pain from the injury.

When Jesus died, it was like the nerves were severed. He went to the grave, the Father remained in heaven. However, Jesus was still God, just as the Father in heaven was still God. And when Jesus returned to the Father in heaven the Spirit of God was sent down to his followers. Now we can be connected with the Son just as the Son is connected with the Father...and this all can happen by the Holy Spirit.

Confusing? Perhaps to some. It makes sense to me. It didn't use to. Something changed in me last year and it was like my eyes were opened and I could truly see.

(I'm sorry if my analogy stunk.  Truth be told, I don't think God is something or someone that can be accurately compared to anything.)

The poor man and the rich man aint equal in terms of wealth, so its only fair they're penalized according to their wealth. Ten bucks for some is as much as a grand for another.

BTW, sincere repentance is really what erases sins, atonement is secondary.

Why does "sincere repentance" erase sin? How does it make up for the evil that you've done? How does it repay the spiritual debt accrued? How does it balance the scale?

And why is it that wealth is a determining factor in regards to the atonement of sins? And if atonement is secondary, does that mean it is not really necessary?

But, where does Allah's law accommodate for st**id, lazy poor people and hardworking, honest rich people? In those cases, the st**id and lazy is rewarded by only having to feed his family a basket of dates whereas the hardworking and honest is punished by having to free two slaves who he worked hard to be able to afford.

Physical suffering is relative. And I don't see how feeding your family some dates is punishment.

The punishment for fornication is 100 lashes, but what if someone has CIPA and the man she slept with did not? He would receive the same punishment...and it would be painful for him but the woman he slept with wouldn't feel anything painful from 100 lashes.

Why didn't Allah accommodate for that?

Why do I see whats coming? .....its all banal.

Banal doesn't mean wrong.

I'm just trying to get definitions for things. From what I've read in the Quran, Tafsir, and Hadith the definition of adultery is different for a woman than it is for a man.

If a woman slept with her slave boy, she'd be found guilty of adultery. If a woman slept with a married male captive, she'd be found guilty of adultery. If a woman took a second husband, she'd be found guilty of adultery.

And would you mind defining "corruption throughout the land"? That is a rather vague statement and open to interpretation.

Really? Because it looks like Allah used Muhammad and the Muslims to do the same thing in the Arabian peninsula, throughout the Middle East, North Africa, and even parts of Europe. Muhammad said Allah had ordered him to fight everyone until there was only Islam. That doesn't sound consistent with your theory that if a nation is sinful, God deals with them Himself. How about the commands Allah gave to Muslims to fight Jews and Christians until they submit to Islamic rule? Why doesn't Allah just wipe out the Christians and Jews? Or what about the pagans that Muslims are commanded to slay?

Reference please....along with the context. Tafsir of shaikul batil Natassia dont count, just junk!

Fine.

Quran 9:5

Quran 9:29 and corresponding Tafsir: (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Tafsir al-Jalalayn, Tanw�r al-Miqb�s min Tafs�r Ibn �Abb�s, Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643

Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Numbers 29 - 35

Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Numbers 4294 & 4366

Sahih Muslim, Book 31, Number 5917 & 5918

And whose is original.... Spencer's?

Never read it. Honestly.  I typically stick to really early stuff.  Ibn Ishaq, al-Tabari, al-Waqidi, the Hadith (Bukhari, Muslim, etc.)  And the biographies I do read were written prior to 1975...before there was any reason to sugar-coat, or in contrast--demonize.

　

What started the Battle of Badr? Ah yes, a planned raid on a Quraysh trade caravan.

Ah no, the raid was to regain what was rightfully theirs. You know, the Muslims' property and livelihood in Makkah they were forced to leave while fleeing persecution, what do you think the Makkans did with that? Learn some history. And why do you think Abu Jahl & Co still mobilised troops to attack Madinah, even when Abu Sufyan's caravan was safe?

I love it when Muslims bring this up. Please show me in your trustworthy sources where it says the Muslims were forced to leave Mecca. When Ali was found in Muhammad's bed...was he forced to flee Mecca that night? What about Abu Bakr's daughter Asma?

And how did goods from Syria rightfully belong to the Muslims? If Muslim property in Mecca had been stolen, why didn't they go and get it from Mecca rather than steal goods from a trade caravan that didn't belong to them? I suppose "due process" was too advanced of a concept, even for the prophet of Allah.

Perhaps Abu Jahl was ticked off that the Muslims had dared to threaten the trade caravan in the first place. Perhaps he was angry about the raid on a trade caravan in Nakhla and murder of an innocent merchant.

　

'Allah and His Apostle' is a metonym for the 'Islamic state', governed by the Quran and Sunnah.

Ka'b just wrote poetry to bemoan the fallen Quraishies? Oh dear! Ka'b incited the Quraysh against the Muslim state which was in its infancy and vulnerable. He composed verses insulting Muslim women and also planned to assassinate the Prophet, the Head of the State. Learn to evaluate history.... Ka'b got what he deserved -

Can you please provide trustworthy sources that state Ka'b was planning to assassinate Muhammad? I don't mean sources 500+ years after the fact. Can you explain to me how expression of free speech harms Allah and his apostle? And if it does, then does that mean I can kill my pagan neighbor if he starts preaching against Islam and leading thousands of Muslims to leave Islam?

He was the Messenger of God and the Head of the Islamic state that was Madinah. Muslims stood by him through thick and thin cuz they realised what he brought was the Truth; unlike the ingrates among the Children of Israel who betrayed and murdered their Prophets.

Muhammad said he was the messenger of God. He created the Islamic state in Medinah that never originally belonged to the Muslims in the first place. The people living in Medinah just didn't persecute the Muslims who supposedly fled there. (I could have sworn Muhammad ORDERED them to leave Mecca, but I'll have to remember where I read that.)

And so, people had to stand behind Muhammad because Muhammad said so. In reality, that is what you are saying.

　

So, is the Sunnah of Muhammad perfect?

Perfect for mankind!

Is it divine?

Its 'divinely inspired'.

But is it perfection? Is it divine or isn't it? Did Allah inspire something to not be truly divine?

You wrote: where does it state the law requiers atonement?? the sacrifice of atonement did not exsist at the time the law was given. the atonement sacrifice came out of babylon when they relesed the jews. the atonement was a false practice. it never happened in the time of moses. the atonement was later practied in the outer court of the temple hence the http://www.islamicity.com/forum/l - of the cristians in the book of revelation

 

Jesus fulfilled the Levirite laws. He fulfilled the priesthood. He fulfilled the necessary atonement. Through Jesus we can be holy, pure, and redeemed. Thanks to him, the Temple curtain was torn.

Yes, there are 6 verses that contain the words "atonement sacrifice." However, if you simply investigate the context of those verses you will find that entire chapters in the Torah are devoted to sacrificial atonement. Leviticus 9, for example, as well as Leviticus 16. In fact, there was an entire day devoted to atonement for the sins of the Israelites.

　

You wrote:

Jeremiah 8:8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

like i said the atonment came from babylon. remember the babylonions distroyed ALL WRITINGS of the isrealites. some 300yr or so Ezra did the best he could rewiting them from oral handme downs a few scrolls and "CHANALING".

Can you please back up this statement with proof? Can you prove that Jeremiah 8:8 was not referring to the scribal traditions and rabbinic traditions found in the Talmud, for example? The Law of the LORD always stands...but its interpretation and application can most definitely be handled falsely. Also, can you please prove that entire chapters regarding atonement were fabrications from Babylon? Can you prove anything you wrote?

　

You wrote:

so now your saying the " PAGENS " have been given the outer court? the "PAGEN ROMANS" have been given a place in the temple to worship??i don't think so. if you mean the PAGEN ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH your correct!

Like I said, Gentile does not always mean Christian. The two terms are not interchangeable. Therefore, historical and theological context must be taken into consideration.

First of all, Revelation 11:2 is prophecy.

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months..."

This means that the Gentiles were going to trample on Jerusalem for about 3 1/2 years. This has nothing to do with God giving pagans a place to worship within the outer court.

　

the rest of you post i'll leave to others to read the confustion for themselves.( CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY).

It's not confusing to me and millions of other Christians just as molecular biology is confusing to many but not to molecular biologists.

 

If Jesus atoned for all of the sin in the world, then why is there still sin?

 

The scholar Ulfat-Aziz-us-Samad says:

 ï¿½ï¿½To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice.