This topic came up in discussion under topic "A former mormon needs some advice ", however since its a seperate topic, hence being transferred from there. Here is my reply to brother community's comments. I have just picked from his quotes where the discussion got diverted, however, those who are interested, may refer back to the above thread for some of the progress made in this direction over there. 

Community wrote: Muhammed is Khatim annubuwwa, my point is, we as muslims have our test too, like the jews and christians before us, do we accept the truth when it comes to us? jews denied messengers of Allah, Jesus and Muhammed amongst those rejected by them, christians denied Muhammed, so how about us muslims? surely the test with messengers either accepting them or denying them also applies to muslims, it can not be that we are just skipped over.....

My bro Community, your logic on the line of reasoning with regard to previous nations is simply refuted because none of the Prophets (Moses and Isa) claimed to be the final prophet of Allah, rather they indicated to their people for the one coming after them. However, the same is not true when the last of the Prophets came i.e. Prophet Mohammad. Not only in Quran (attestation from Allah in verse 33:40) but Prophet Mohammad himself has categorically stated this fact through numerous authentic ahadith. Hence your logic doesn't stand its merit of consideration at all.

The bible nor the koran reffers to Muhammed as the last MESSENGER, Akhir means last, khatim means seal, and to some it means attest. There is also khatam al quran, which means the completion of the recital of the whole koran, it does not mean that the koran will not be recited again. So clearly khatim (seal) does not mean akhir(last). But it indicates a comletion. Nowhere in the koran does Allah say that muhammed is "akhir arrosul" last of the messengers. Or in anyway tells us that Muhammed is the last messenger, except when people used "khatim annubuwwa" as meaning the last messenger, this is dishonest, first because it says khatim which means seal and not akhir which means last, secondly it says nubuwwa which is translated as Prophethood. Thirdly there is a difference between nabiy(prophet) and rasool(sent one) and then there is also the word Mursaleen(the sent ones with a certain message that already exists) because you can say mursaloona bi al quraan which means sent(plural) with the koran, so they are mursaleen. Hard to accept for some maybe, but so was it for those jews and christians before the muslims, and you will not find in the way(tradition, sunnat) of Allah any change, or any other situation. "Lan tajida fee sunnati Allahi tahweelan walaa taghieeran" The best provision is the fear of Allah, this will help someone not to reject truth when it comes to him, he will hear the truth or be careful to reject anything said because he will stand before Allah who will judge with Truth. Being proud like the jews by thinking they are right without being truthful, because they could'nt be truthful, because it would mean they would have to admit they were wrong and take a step down from their position which they got used to and obviously did not want to give it up made them losers, and shame is upon them. Allah tests mankind, and every time it occured that some people reject a messenger or prophet when they came to them with the truth, so we all should be really careful with rejecting, because it might be the truth, we should be truthful and look into what is said, if the goal is the truth. And Allah is the manifest Truth. So what is the critirion? al furqaan? al qur'an, the koran, not people and their methodologies. Or do you really think it is truthful to accept words outside of the koran which PEOPLE claim to be from the prophet, rather then the words of the Allah?, If Muhammed was the last messenger, this would mean we would be excluded from the test of accepting a messenger or rejecting him...the test is, how do we know the words ascribed to the prophet are authentic? if they do not go against the koran right? So how is it possible to say khatim annubuwwa means the last messenger? The meanings contradict, and the rest as you say confirming that he is the last prophet comes from "ahadith" which you claim to be authentic but you can not be sure of that...you know how much power struggle there was in history? do you know how many believers were killed and messengers killed? If the truth is even hidden nowadays about things that just happened recently, how so will this be for what happened 1400 years ago....so you can go ahead and say they are authentic because people say they are authentic. But this in no way means it is true. Honestly it resembles the christians claim of the holy spirit coming down on them and inventing stuff into the religion, or the jews who hold to the words of their rabbis (the talmud) So to me your logic does not stand it's merrit of consideration at all. Maybe for a jew or christian it would...although they do not hold to your beliefs...

Thanks bro Community for your comments. Even with your own accepted definition of word Khatim when you say "khatim means seal, and to some it means attest. There is also khatam al quran, which means the completion......... " doesn't it imply completion of Prophethood? If it does mean 'completion', as you have suggested, then 'completion' implies 'finishing' and the one who is closest to finishing must be called the 'last'. Isn't it? Think about it.

Though I do reserve my remarks about your comments on ahadith and its authenticity, however, presently I would like to say on your comments "So to me your logic does not stand it's merrit of consideration at all. Maybe for a jew or christian it would...although they do not hold to your beliefs...". Here you have not presented any logic or evidence except confusing statement in negating my logical refutation on previous post as on one side you say "maybe it would" and then say "although they do not". Can you clarify you position with evidence.

Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) left Ali b. Abi Talib behind him (as he proceeded) to the expedition of Tabuk, whereupon he ('Ali) said: "Allah's Messenger, are you leaving me behind amongst women and children?" Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: "Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there would be no prophet after me."

Here is a good read as well: http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/finalprophet.html - http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/finalproph et.html

Khatim annubuwwa, the name Muhammed means the praised one, as Muhammed salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam was the seal of prophet it ment all previous prophets are confirmed by him, and also recognized in him by those who have understanding, because i believe he had all the qualities of all the prophets before him, he was a confirmation of all the previous prophets, the seal and the completer of prophethood. As for the claim by people that this means he was the last messenger, i do not agree, because there is no refference of this claim in the koran. Moreover people obviously still need to be reminded. No mursil(messenger) will claim to be on the same level as Nabiyu Allah Muhammad salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam or above him, but they will come with the truth, and the truth they come with will be confirmed by the koran, indjeel and torah. And most people do not love the truth so they will face hardships. There is always an "esteblishment" and when someone comes with the truth, and it does 'nt go along their wishes they go against it.

why do so many people, even arabic speaking people say Allahu Akbar means Allah is great, greatest while the only true meaning is Allah is greater? This is the truth. Do you see lies and deceptions as being small because you do not understand their implications? it seems alot of arabic speaking people are blind to their own language, what causes this blindness, or is it deception?

Why do scholars and so many muslims try to convert jews and christians to their ways instead of making the verses known where Allah urges them to implement their own books(torah and indjeel)?

Yusuf Ali interpretation of the koran:

5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

What is wrong with the supposedly faithful not obeying the commands of Allah in the koran?

9:34 O ye who believe!  indeed many of the priests and anchorites,  devour the substance of men with falsehood and hinder (block) from the way of Allah. And there are those who hord up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah. so give them the good news of a painful torment-

This verse is from surat attawba, chapter the repentance, so where are the faithful? those who are spoken to to GIVE THEM THE GOOD NEWS of a painful torment. Do you not hear the name of this chapter? the repentance...do you not understand?

Why do not muslims look at them who were before us, and fear Allah and look into their mistakes of making their scholars and other people as gods besides Allah by taking their words over the words of Allah, and making all kinds of methodologies to support their lies?(they say "the prophet said: if someone refutes you with the koran, then refute him with the sunnah", now who will accept this as truth except a liar?) Allah truely favored this community but they still engage in the same thing as those before them, and like them, they see themselves as superior. What have they done? made their faith into a way to gain power through mixing it with lies and deceptions? for what reason? All power belongs to Allah, and everyone will come to know this. you better be on the side of Al Haqq, The Truth. And a truth is that there is no power or situation except by Allah. So lose your anger, and your stiving for power, you have no right to be angry with all your sins and lies while Allah is still patient with you and merciful, and as for your striving for power, To Allah is all the power, and the messenger and the true faithful, these do not lie and deceive to gain power, but are given it by Allah, through truth. 

Am yaqooloona bihi jinnatun bal jaahum bi alhaqqi wa aktharuhum lilhaqqi karihoona

23:70 Or do they say, "He is possessed"? Nay, he came to them with  the Truth, but most of them hate the Truth. {Al-Mu'minun [23:70]}

     "Laqad jinaakum bilhaqqi walakinna aktharakum lilhaqqi karihoona"

Az-Zukhruf [43:78]

I totally agree with you, Community.

I think the reason why Allahu Akbar is usually translated into "Allah is Great/greatest" is because that's what most people think it is. Even Arab speaking Muslims don't realize that it actually means Allah is Greater. Some might know, but don't want to go into the philosophy behind it (why it's greater instead of greatest) so they simply say "Allah is Greatest".

And yes... I too sometimes wonder why Muslims work extra hard in preaching to Christians/Jews instead of preaching to, say, Hindus or atheists.

029.046 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow."

Assalamu alaikum,

"'akbar" is technically the elative form of "kabir," "great." It is a comparative "greater" only when followed by the preposition "min" and the basis of comparison placed in the genitive case. For example, "hiya u'Sdaqu min akhika" means "she is more truthful than your father." If it is not followed by anything, the elative is the superlative, not comparative. Thus, "Allahu 'Akbar" means "God is Greatest," not greater.

In fact, it is semantically incorrect, in any language I know of, to modify a noun with a comparative adjective without the basis of comparison.

Using your example...

Person A: "Hiya asdaqu min akhika" ("She is more truthful than you brother").
Person B: "Lakin akhi asdaq" ("But my brother is more truthful").

Notice the lack of "min" after "asdaq". Still semantically correct.

In the case of "allahu akbar", the implication is "Allah is Greater [than everything]", which is almost the same as saying "Allah is Greatest."

Assalamu alaikum,

Your translation of B is incorrect. "Lakin akhi 'asdaqu" is "but my brother is the most truthful." The correct way to say "my brother is more truthful (than the woman referred to in statement A) is "lakin akhi 'asdaqu minha."

But this is a minor point as you yourself note and hardly worth quibbling over. Grammar fascinates me so I tend to get overly enthusiastic about it!

We can use English as an example instead of Arabic.

Person A: My house is bigger than your brother's.
Person B: But mine is bigger.

So is the statement by person B grammatically incorrect? 

Dear Yusuf,

Is it correct english to say Allah is greatest instead of Allah is the greatest? because if it is Allah is the greatest it would be Allahu-al- akbar in arabic. 

Allah is the greatest, this is true, but we are not able to encompass what "greatest" truely means, we can not even grasp how big the universe is, so no matter how great we think He is, He is always greater then that, greater then any thought, comprehension or imagination, Allah is greater. Allahu Akbar!

In the koran it says "wa kabbirhu takbeeran". So this means you are in a certain situation, and you think about Allah and then think or say Allahu Akbar (then what you imagine or think)....Allahu Akbar(then that thought or imagination you had with the first takbeer) Allahu Akbar....Allahu Akbar.....Allahu Akbar. 

May Allah encrease your safety and security in faith(imaan).

 all praise to Allah Lord of the worlds.

wa alhamdu li Allahi rabbi al'alameen,

My dear Bro, Community, coming back to the topic, in reference to your post "Khatim annubuwwa, the name Muhammed means the praised one, as Muhammed salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam was the seal of prophet it ment all previous prophets are confirmed by him, and also recognized in him by those who have understanding, because i believe he had all the qualities of all the prophets before him, he was a confirmation of all the previous prophets, the seal and the completer of prophethood. As for the claim by people that this means he was the last messenger, i do not agree, because there is no refference of this claim in the koran. ........" This is surprising especially when you yourself admit that seal implies "completer of prophethood" and yet say you don't believe it means the last prophet. So what else could it imply and yet it is "completer of prophethood"? Now as far as "confirmation of all previous prophets" is concerned, I think this notion is not unique to Prophet Mohammad only since all subsequent Prophets to Adam (which are known to us through Quran) indeed confirmed those who came before them. Hence, simple attestation or confirmation is not the full implication of word "seal". It then necessarily imply that seal means confirmation of all previous prophets (as you have admitted) along with completion of prophethood (as you have admitted). Hence the one who is in the end of the chain of prophets, must be called "the last". Isn't it all logical? On the more, lexical meaning of  "seal" is to "close". Hence the same notion of "seal of prophets" implies "closing of prophethood". Hence, logically speaking, if Prophet Mohammad was the only prophet on earth during that time, then this word necessarily mean prophet Mohammad closed the prophethood. It further implies that since the door of prophethood is closed, therefore no more prophet would come after him and hence Prophet Mohammad is the last Prophet of Allah.

Though, I do see your concerns about a lot of misinterpretations of Quran, but they are not related to our present topic under discussion. Therefore, I would not comment upon your later part of the post and would prefer to stick to this one point of discussion rather than opening plethora of topics and discussing none. May Allah give us guidance to recognise the truth through the use of knowledge with wisdom and logic. Amin.

Deus wrote: We can use English as an example instead of Arabic. Person A: My house is bigger than your brother's. Person B: But mine is bigger. So is the statement by person B grammatically incorrect?

There is still no basis of comparison: whose house is person B's bigger than? OK, you say, it's bigger than the brother mentioned by person A. But the grammatically correct statement is "but mine is bigger than his." Of course people don't always say this.

But in Arabic there is a further issue. In English there is  comparative and a superlative form: bigger and biggest. In Arabic, there is only the elative, which functions in different contexts as either a comparative or a superlative. Therefore it needs a basis of comparison to assume the comparative.

Look at the statement: "God is greater." Greater than what? Greater than the speaker? Greater than the addressee? Greater than He was 10 minutes ago?

Community wrote: Dear Yusuf, Is it correct english to say Allah is greatest instead of Allah is the greatest? because if it is Allah is the greatest it would be Allahu-al- akbar in arabic.  Allah is the greatest, this is true, but we are not able to encompass what "greatest" truely means, we can not even grasp how big the universe is, so no matter how great we think He is, He is always greater then that, greater then any thought, comprehension or imagination, Allah is greater. Allahu Akbar!

I'm going to cop out and simply quote a grammar book:

"When the elative form occurs as an indefinite predicate adjective without a min comparison, there is no essential difference between the comparative and superlative degrees. Such an elative should generally be considered emphatic or superlative in meaning." W. M. Thackston, An Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic, p. 85.

He then gives the example Allahu 'akbaru and translates it as God is greatest/very great. The other example he gives is Allahu 'a'lamu which he translates as God knows best/most/is all knowing.

Peace upon you DavidC.,

You bring up such a very good point - intention is everything!

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamu Alaikum,

Community wrote: The bible nor the koran reffers to Muhammed as the last MESSENGER, Akhir means last, khatim means seal, and to some it means attest. There is also khatam al quran, which means the completion of the recital of the whole koran, it does not mean that the koran will not be recited again. So clearly khatim (seal) does not mean akhir(last). But it indicates a comletion. Nowhere in the koran does Allah say that muhammed is "akhir arrosul" last of the messengers. Or in anyway tells us that Muhammed is the last messenger, except when people used "khatim annubuwwa" as meaning the last messenger, this is dishonest, first because it says khatim which means seal and not akhir which means last, secondly it says nubuwwa which is translated as Prophethood. Thirdly there is a difference between nabiy(prophet) and rasool(sent one) and then there is also the word Mursaleen(the sent ones with a certain message that already exists) because you can say mursaloona bi al quraan which means sent(plural) with the koran, so they are mursaleen.

Community, would you so kindly point to even a single ayat in the Qur'an where a prophecy is made regarding a prophet yet to come.  Both the Torah and the Gospel had prophecies regarding one or more future prophets.  As far as I know, the Qur'an does not.  If the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) were not the last prophet, then why were there no prophecies about another to come as were in prior holy books? 

Community wrote: Hard to accept for some maybe, but so was it for those jews and christians before the muslims, and you will not find in the way(tradition, sunnat) of Allah any change, or any other situation.

Your statement here is simply not well founded.  First, for both Jews and Christians, it was hard for them to accept future prophets despite the fact that both the Torah and the Gospel contained prophecies regarding them.  So, in the case of Jews and Christians, they refused to believe the prophecies Allah revealed within the context of their own holy books.  How can a Muslim refuse to believe something which Allah has not revealed to him/her?  Second, there is a change in the way of Allah in the Qur'an and Sunnah, i.e., there are no prophecies regarding future prophets as can be found in both the Torah and Gospel.

PAZ, Khadija

Subhaana Allah al'adheem. Muhammed Salla allahu 'alaihi wa sallam is the seal of prophethood, but this does not mean he was the last "sent one" (rasool, mursil) of Allah

If we read the koran we find that Allah directs His speech to the messenger(the leader), the faithful(al mu'mineen), those who submit their will to Allah(muslims), to the people of the book, to mankind in general and then also to the hypocrites(manifiqeen)and the kafireen(disbelievers). The leader, is he who fears Allah the most from amongst the people. The leader should be the one who fears Allah the most, because fearing Allah makes one truely just amongst the people, such a person will avoid being unjust as much as possible since he realizes that he will be standing before Allah and be asked about his actions, this person will not strive for power, but he will be asked to lead because of the truthfulness recognized in him by the faithful. One who fears Allah, fears being given power because of the responsibilty it involves...The leader will take the words like "say" in the koran as Allah's speech directed to him, he will fear that if he disobeys the command of Allah the punishment of a distressing day. So he will say and do as Allah commands him to do through the koran, so when Allah says "you", he will take it as His words to him, and not as in the english interpretations it says "you(o muhammed) between brackets, he will not see the parts between brackets because he will know arabic, and in the real koran, the arabic koran there is nothing between brackets, only the true unadulterated words of Allah. The true faithful will recognize him and have faith in him, help him and support him, and the ones who will lose are those who oppose him, they will be full of pride, degrading him and accusing him of being a liar, and even persecute him and the faithful with him who help and support him, like the prophet muhammad salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam and the faithful -radhia Allahu 'anhum wa alaihim assalaam-were treated by the "esteblishment", the esteblishment back then were the leaders in Mekka and their tribes, and those who obeyed them because of interests.  The esteblishment had interest in keeping people holding to their religion and following their ways, because through this falsehood they kept the power over the people, and this gave them a false notion of security. The prime example of a darkening(unjust) esteblishment is the Pharao and his people and the faith they practised, in which the Pharao was seen as a god, and everything evloved around him, this way he kept control over the people and this was fair seeming to him, it is called self interest in the most extreem wrong way. When the leader comes, you will probebly not even hear about him, untill they are victorious, or the face off between them and those who oppose him becomes noticable because of the losses of those who oppose him. Then still those who oppose him will send disinformation into the world as to keep others away from joining him, just like the enemies of Allah did in the time of the prophet and the faithful.

Chapter the women "annissaa"5 verse 100

He who migrates in the way of Allah, finds in the earth many a refuge, wide and spacious, and whoever goes out of his home migrating to Allah and His sent one, and death overtakes him, then his reward falls on Allah. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Merciful.

bear witness to Allah that i came to you with the truth. Even though most of you detest it.

Community,

Would you please directly quote your sources for the things you said about this future leader?  And, are you saying this leader will be a prophet?  If so, would you quote the ayat that says this will happen?

PAZ, Khadija

As Salam o Alikum

The claim that the Muhammad(pbuh) is not the last Prophet is of the Qadianis who are also known as to be the Ahamadis. There is a consensus in the Muslim world that they do not fall under the defination of Muslim. Why??

Because if Muhammad is not the last Prophet then it means Quran is not the final world of God. This is not the belief of Muslims.

Because then it means God forgot to mentioned the name of next Prophet. This is not the belief of Muslims.

Because then Quran is also open to alteration.

Because then all those sayings of Prophet Muhammad which says that he is the last messanger of God are fabricated. This can't be the belief of a Muslim.

So anyone who refuse to accept Muhammad as the last messanger of God is not a Muslim under any circumstances. There has to be no compromise on this aspect.

Shams Zaman   Pakistan.

Bro Shams Zaman,

Thanks for your input but the topic is little different than categorizing people on the basis of their beliefs. Here, bro community is trying to put forward his logical arguments as why he thinks Mohammad is not the last messanger of Allah, though he has yet to present any.

Bro Shakur, I am sure you would not recommend someone to hold sword in his hand to convince people about Islam but through mutual dialogue with logic and wisdom. Isn't it?

I still don't understand why the hadiths are being ignored here. There are plenty of hadiths (of varying authenticity) that explicitly say that Muhammad is the last prophet and messenger of God.

Community, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this what you're trying to get at: The line of prophets was sealed by Muhammad (him being the seal of prophets), but this does not mean that Allah will bestow His divine guidance upon other people? In other words, it is possible that pious leaders can recieve divine inspirations, yet they're not prophets?

 They say: "If only a sign was sent down upon him from his Lord" Say: "(Allah) hath certainly power to send down a sign: but most of them do not know. [koran: "al an'aam" 6:37] (read verses before and after this verse)

Say, the holy spirit has brought brought it down from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who have found safety and security in faith, and a guidance and Glad Tidings to Muslims(those who submit to Allah, wishing His peace.) [chapter "annahl" the bee 16:102]

 He send down His angels with the "spirit(rooh) from His command, to such of His servants as He pleaseth, (saying): "Warn (Man) that there is no god but I: so "fear" (be cautious, be concious) of Me ." [16:2]

Say, the holy spirit has brought brought it down from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who have found safety and security in faith, and a guidance and Glad Tidings to Muslims(those who submit to Allah, wishing His peace.) [chapter "annahl" the bee 16:102]

40:13 He it is Who showeth you his Signs, and sendeth down sustenance for you from the sky: but only those receive admonition who (yuneeb) incline towards(turns to Allah).

hey ahamdjoyia do you also not believe that muhammed is the last prophet.

"O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Apostle of God and the last in the line of Prophets. And God is Aware of everything." (Surah Al Ahzab: 40)

from this verse we learn tha muhammed is the last prophet, and that is why god said he will guard the quran from corruption so there will be no need for prophets.

here are the hadiths.

• The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib).

• The Prophet of God (PBUH) affirmed: "My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example:

  A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marvelled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets." (Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib).

  (In other words, with the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) the edifice of Prophethood has been completed and there is no empty niche in this edifice to provide room for another prophet.)

  Four traditions relating to this subject are recorded, in Muslim, Kitab-ul-Fada'il, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin. The latter tradition contains the following additional sentence. "So I came and in me the line of Prophets has ended."

  The very same tradition in similar words has been reported in Tirmidhi, Kitab-ul-Manaqib, Bab-Fadlin Nabi and Kitab-Adab, Bab-ul-Amthal. In Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi this tradition has been incorporated among other traditions reported by Jabir bin Abdullah; and its last sentence reads, "It is in me that line of Prophets came to its final end."

  Musnad Ahmad contains traditions reported by Hadrat Ubayyi bin Ka'b, Hadrat Abu Sa'id Khudri and Hadrat Abu Huraira(may Allah be pleased with them) on the same subject with a slight variation of words here and there.

• The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "God has bestowed upon me six favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy:
  I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech.
  I was granted victory owing to my awe.
  The spoils of war were made lawful unto me.
  The whole earth has been made the place of worship for me and it has become the means of purification for me also. In other words in my religion, offering of prayers is not confined to certain specified places of worship. Prayers can be offered at any place over the earth. And in case water is not available it is lawful for my people to perform ablutions with earth(Tayammum) and to cleanse themselves with the soil if water for bathing is scarce.
  I have been sent by Allah to carry His Divine message to the whole world.
  And the line of prophets has come to its final end in me.

  (Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah)

• The Prophet of Allah (PBUH) affirmed: "The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me." (Tirmidhi, Kitab-ur-Rouya Babu Zahab-un- Nubuwwa, Musnad Ahmad, Marwiyat-Anas bin Malik)

• The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am the effacer and infidelity shall be erased through me; I am the assembler. People shall be assembled on Doomsday after my time. (In other words Doom is my only successor.) And I am the last in the sense that no prophet shall succeed me." (Bukhari and Muslim, Kitab-ul-Fada'il, Bab: Asmaun-Nabi; Tirmidhi, Kitab-ul- Adab, Bab: Asma-un-Nabi; Muatta', Kitab-u-Asma in-Nabi, Al- Mustadrak Hakim, Kitab-ut-Tarikh, Bab: Asma-un-Nabi.)

• The Prophet of God (PBUH) observed: "God Almighty hath sent unto the world no apostle who did not warn his people about the appearance of Dajjal( Anti-Christ, but Dajjal did not appear in their time). I am the last in the line of Prophets and ye are the last community of believers. Without doubt,then, Dajjal shall appear from amongst ye". (Ibn Majah, Kitabul-fitan, bab:Dajjal).

• 'Abdur Rahman bin Jubair reported: "I heard Abdullah bin 'Amr ibn-'As narrating that one day the Holy Prophet (PBUH) came out of his house and joined our company. His manner gave us the impression as if he were leaving us.' He said, 'I am Muhammad, the unlettered prophet of Allah' and repeated this statement three times. Then he affirmed: "There will be no prophet after me'."(Musnad Ahmad, Marwiyat'Abdullah bin Amr ibn'-As.)

• The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "Allah will send no Apostle after me, but only Mubashshirat. It was said: what is meant by al-Mubashshirat. He said : Good vision or pious vision". (Musnad Ahmad, Marwiyat Abu Tufail, Nasa'i, Abu Dawud) (In other words there is no possibility of Divine revelation in future. At the most if some one receives an inspiration from Allah he will receive it in the form of "pious dream."

• The Holy Prophet (PBUH) said: "If an Apostle were to succeed me, it would have been 'Umar bin Khattab." (Tirmidhi,Kitab-ul- Manaqib)

• The Holy Prophet (PBUH) told Hadrat 'Ali, "You are related to me as Aaron was related to Moses(peace be upon him). But no Apostle will come after me." (Bukhari and Muslim, Kitab Fada'il as-Sahaba)

  This tradition is recorded in Bukhari and Muslim in the account of the Battle of Tabuk also. Musnad records two traditions narrated by Hadrat Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas ( may Allah be pleased with him) on this subject. The last sentence in one of these traditions runs as follows : "Behold there is no prophethood after me."

  Detailed accounts of the traditions incorporated in Abu Dawud Tayalisi, Imam Ahmad and Muhammad bin Ishaque report that on the eve of his departure for the battle of Tabuk, the holy Prophet (PBUH) had resolved to leave Hadrat 'Ali behind him in order to look after the defense and supervise the affairs of Medina. The hypocrites thereupon began to spread insinuations and rumours about Hadrat 'Ali. Hadrat 'Ali went to the Prophet and submitted : 'O Prophet of Allah, are you leaving me behind among women and children?' On this occasion in order to set his mind at peace the Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "You are related to me as was Aaron with Moses." In other words "as Hadrat Moses on the Mount Tur had left Hadrat Aaron behind to look after the tribe of Israel, so I (Muhammad) leave you behind to look after the defense of Medina." At the same time apprehending that this comparative allusion to Hadrat Aaron might later on give rise to heresies, the holy Prophet (PBUH) immediately made it clear that "There will be no Prophet after me."

• Thauban reports: "The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: And there will arise Thirty imposters in my Ummah and each one of them will pronounce to the world that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets of God and no Apostle will come after me." (Abu Dawud, Kitab-ul-Fitan)

  Abu Dawud in 'Kitab-ul-Malahim' has recorded another tradition reported by Abu Huraira in the same subject. Tirmidhi has also recorded these two traditions as reported by Hadrat Thauban and Hadrat Abu Huraira. The text of the second tradition runs thus: "It will come to this that thirty imposters will arise and each one of them will put forth his claim to be the Apostle of God."

• The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "Among the tribe of Israel who went before you there indeed were such people who held communion with God, even though they were not his Prophets. If ever there arose a person from among my people who would hold communion with God, it would be none else but 'Umar (May Allah be pleased with him)." (Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib)

  A version of this same tradition in `Muslim' contains Muhaddithuna instead of Yukallimuna. But then Mukalima and Muhaddith bear identical meaning i.e., a man enjoys the privilege of holding direct communion with God or a person who is addressed by the Almighty from the unseen. Thus we conclude that if there had been any person among the followers of Muhammad who could hold communion with God without being raised to the dignity of prophethood, it would have been `Umar.

• The Prophet of God (PBUH) said: "No Prophet will come after me and there will, therefore, be no other community of followers of any new prophet." (Baihaqi,Kitab-ul Rouya; Tabarani)

• The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "I am the last in line of the prophets of God and my Masjid is the last Masjid (referring the holy Masjid of the Prophet)." (see footnote 3) (Muslim, Kitab-ul-Hajj; Bab:Fadl-us-Salat bi Masjidi Mecca wal Medina)

  A large number of such traditions of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have been reported by the companions and a great many compilers have recorded them from authoritative sources. A study of these traditions shows that the Holy Prophet on several occasions, and in various ways and in different words made it explicitly clear that he was the last Prophet of God; That no prophet would follow him and that the line of prophets had ended in him. Furthermore, those would claim to be Prophets and Messengers of God after his time would be imposters and liars. (see footnote 4).

  There can be no authentic, creditable and conclusive interpretation of the words of the Holy Qur'an, Khatam-un- Nabiyyin, than that given by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) for the credentials of the Holy prophet (PBUH) need no proof and the authority of his words is unassailable. His words are authentic and a proof in itself. When the Prophet is explaining a Nass of the Holy Quran, his explanation is the most authentic and a proof positive.

  The question is who else besides the Holy Prophet (PBUH), to whom the Qur'an was revealed, is better qualified to comprehend its meaning and to explain its contents to us? And he who advances an alternative explanation, shall we regard his claims as worthy of our consideration let alone our acquiescence?

Assalamu Alaikum

Community wrote:  They say: "If only a sign was sent down upon him from his Lord" Say: "(Allah) hath certainly power to send down a sign: but most of them do not know. [koran: "al an'aam" 6:37] (read verses before and after this verse) Say, the holy spirit has brought brought it down from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who have found safety and security in faith, and a guidance and Glad Tidings to Muslims(those who submit to Allah, wishing His peace.) [chapter "annahl" the bee 16:102]  He send down His angels with the "spirit(rooh) from His command, to such of His servants as He pleaseth, (saying): "Warn (Man) that there is no god but I: so "fear" (be cautious, be concious) of Me ." [16:2] Say, the holy spirit has brought brought it down from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who have found safety and security in faith, and a guidance and Glad Tidings to Muslims(those who submit to Allah, wishing His peace.) [chapter "annahl" the bee 16:102] 40:13 He it is Who showeth you his Signs, and sendeth down sustenance for you from the sky: but only those receive admonition who (yuneeb) incline towards(turns to Allah).

Community, what does this have to do with prophethood?  Allah sends signs for all of humankind.  Allah never said He would stop sending signs.  It is divine revalation that He sent through the Prophets (pbut) and it is that which we will not receive again because there is no longer a need.  We have the Qur'an.  You still have not provided us with a single ayat that would even remotely suggest that Muhammad (pbuh) was not in fact the last prophet. 

PAZ, Khadija

7:34 To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation).

7:35 O ye Children of Adam! whenever messengers(sent ones) come to you from amongst you, telling you My signs , so whoever fears(is cautious) and mend (betters himself),- then no fear is upon them and they will not grieve.

 7:36 But those who belied Our signs and treated them with arrogance,- those are the companions of the Fire, to dwell therein.

Fear Allah, and read all that i said again. Muhammad The peace of Allah is upon him was the seal of prophethood, but this does in no way mean he was the last messenger. I urge all of you who wish to follow Muhammad saws, to implement the first word sent down upon him, the word was Iqra, read and if you can not, learn. So you can read the koran for yourselves, and get out of it what is for you, The words of Allah came in arabic, not yusuf ali english. with all his human misinterpretation and mis translation. Lisaanan arabiyun mubeen, Lisaanun(a tongue) arabiyun(an arabic) mobeen( self revealing, clear), in the koran it says that in Muhammad saws there is a good example.

There is no power or situation except by Allah. Serve Allah and do not associate anyone or anything with Him in service.

"O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Apostle of God and the last in the line of Prophets. And God is Aware of everything." (Surah Al Ahzab: 40)

you know if you doubt this verse one bit  you are a kaffir, and also the endless hadiths. anyone can post verses that does not relate to the subject.

Community wrote: 7:35 O ye Children of Adam! whenever messengers(sent ones) come to you from amongst you, telling you My signs , so whoever fears(is cautious) and mend (betters himself),- then no fear is upon them and they will not grieve.

Are you saying this verse is addressing us? That we should keep our eyes open for a new apostle?

Also, isn't every messenger a prophet also? But not every prophet is necessarily a messenger?

 Jesus had apostles(hawariyoon). The word Allah uses is Rosoul(sent ones) or if you will messengers, it is the truth.

Deus wrote: Community wrote: 7:35 O ye Children of Adam! whenever messengers(sent ones) come to you from amongst you, telling you My signs , so whoever fears(is cautious) and mend (betters himself),- then no fear is upon them and they will not grieve. Are you saying this verse is addressing us? That we should keep our eyes open for a new apostle? Also, isn't every messenger a prophet also? But not every prophet is necessarily a messenger?

Chapter 7 Al a'raaf...the high places....

the best speech is the speech of Allah. And His words, which He protects is in the koran, no one can change His words...

the rest is the speech of men. Allah is The Truth, and His speech is the truth, and He it is who we should obey, As for people and their clasifications of prophets and messengers and their methodologies, know that people can lie deceive and be wrong, so leave what is doubtfull and go towards what is certain.

6:50 Say: "I tell you not that with me are the treasures of Allah, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me." Say: "can the blind be held equal to the seeing?" will ye then not reflect?

6:51 and warn with it those who are scared(fear) that they will be will be gathered before their Lord: except for Him they will have no protector nor intercessor: that they may become cautious (yattaqoon).

7:175 Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray.

My Dear Bro Community,

I feel that you have now exhausted all your vain attempts to logically provide any sound argument to support your hypothesis. Everything you are now presenting is totally "jumping into the conclusions" without presenting any logical basis to it. However, to provide you further evidence to support my arguments, it is more logical to observe the instances of this word "seal" appearing elsewhere in Quran and then see as what meanings are associated with this word.

Here, I am presenting the translations from three different people, just to remove any ambiguity of translational errors. First the transliteration of the actual verse along with its translation:

Transliteration:
33:40 Ma kana muhammadun aba ahadin min rijalikum walakin rasoola Allahi wakhatama alnnabiyyeena wakana Allahu bikulli shayin AAaleeman

 In this verse 2:7, Allah has "set a seal on their hearts" implies that Allah has "closed their hearts". Hence the word "seal" means "to close".

Similarly,

004.155
YUSUFALI: (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-
PICKTHAL: Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few -
SHAKIR: Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few.

Over here in 4:155, again Allah has set a "seal upon them" implies Allah has "cloesed their hearts". Hence seal means "to close".

Similarly,

006.046
YUSUFALI: Say: "Think ye, if Allah took away your hearing and your sight, and sealed up your hearts, who - a god other than Allah - could restore them to you?" See how We explain the signs by various (symbols); yet they turn aside.
PICKTHAL: Say: Have ye imagined, if Allah should take away your hearing and your sight and seal your hearts, Who is the Allah Who could restore it to you save Allah? See how We display the revelations unto them! Yet still they turn away.
SHAKIR: Say: Have you considered that if Allah takes away your hearing and your sight and sets a seal on your hearts, who is the god besides Allah that can bring it to you? See how We repeat the communications, yet they turn away.

In this verse 6:46, again the word "seal" is used to imply 'to close'.

Hence, as sufficient proof has been provided to understand the word "seal" in its right way and not in any other distorted way. Hope this shall serve you to better understand the message of Allah through His last prophet, Prophet Mohammad.

May Allah give all of us wisdom to recognise the true signs of Allah for our guidance in the right direction. Amin.

chapter al a'raaf (THE HIGH SITUATED PLACES)

7:175 Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray. 7:176 had it been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

My bro Community, can you provide your reference for the coming back of Prophet Isa?

Certainly word "aakhir" is not the only one word which means last in Arabic. Indeed, usage of word "seal" is a perfect selection by Allah simply to imply "to close" than just the 'last' as you propose, other wise someone like you would have pointed out; certainly he is last but not the least and therefore might have created a confusion. You see, this word "seal" has removed all other possiblities and therefore no confusion at all. Hence, Prophet Mohammad is indeed the Last Prophet of Allah to mankind.

I do not wish to be a trial through my pride, but if anyone of you wishes to understand what happened here, and my initial doubt of khaatim as meaning final or last, i suggest to you to read where it started  "Islamic interfaith dialogue :former mormon needs some advice" i wish you well.

Prophet is not the same as messenger(sent one) as clearly the koran indicates other messengers will come to mankind. So the test of accepting or denying sent ones(messengers) also applies to childeren of Adam (mankind) living after the seal of prophets.

My Dear Bro Community, as usual, I would always suggest that don't let the logic go out of your mind when it comes to understanding of Islam. It is this tool that Allah asks us on numerous occassions in Quran to use it for the understand of it. I think, this is indeed a unique attribute of Quran un-parallel with any other scriptural book on earth.

Indeed pride is the sin committed by satan by not obeying Allah and hence we all must reflect in our own self. However, it is the knowledge used with wisdom that gives us confidence, and not pride, in accepting the commands of Allah through proper understanding of Quran.

Now coming to your new misconception about prophet vs messanger, suffice is to note that though all messangers are Prophets but not all prophets are messangers. Therefore, once Quran says Prophet Mohammad is the seal of prophethood, then it implies there is no more Prophet. Hence no more messangers also. Now it is shown clearly, without ambiguity, that your hypothesis has no basis at all. Indeed, Allah knows the best.

Am I right in saying that this discussion has been reduced to a matter of defining what "Seal of Prophethood" really means?

O my dear brother Dues, I hope you would prefer being focused on the topic rather than opening up unrelated issues without any outcome. Do you have any view on it other than what has been said?

I think I'd like to take a crack at what Community is saying and in the same vain support/argue both Community's statements and AhmadJoyia.  First off, my take on this thread is going to be different from a lot of people, as a Mormon, I believe the heavens are not close and god continues to have Prophets (mouth pieces) on Earth.  But, that belief stems from our belief in Jesus Christ and what we call the Great Apostacy.  For our beliefs in Prophets to work, first you must believe that after Jesus died that the true meanings of what was taught was lost, corrupted and ignored.  For us, the return of Prophets was God correcting the course of his straying flock.  Now, that being said, if you take Islamic beliefs, this does not work.  For a Prophet to return in Islam, it would have to mean that 1 Billion Muslims have gotten so far off the course Muhammed set in his teachings that God would have to send someone to put all of you back on course.  Now, given the push to teach all believers Arabic and to maintain the purity of the religion, no Muslim could accept the concept of a new Prophet.  To accept a new Prophet would to state that Islam was no longer the true religion, that is has become corrupted and twisted.  That would no longer make the person Muslim.  Now, does that mean that never, ever, ever would Allah send another Messanger.  If all Muslims continue to practice the Truths taught by the Messanger, the Prophet, then no, Allah would have no need of a new Prophet.  But, if Islam were to fall to corruption, then God would need to send another Prophet.  In either likelihood, the Last Days will probably arrive before that will ever be an issue. 

Now, as for the word, SEAL.  We Mormons use this term everyday.  A husband and wife are not "married" they are "sealed for eternity" this is a finality.  To seal something is to cap it.  Once a canning jar is sealed by heat, nothing more can be put into the jar and nothing can be taken out until that seal is broken.  A seal is an end of sorts, so I looked up the definition.  The following definition was given by http://www.dictionary.com - http://www.dictionary.com and was not altered in any way, with the exception of making things bold or italicized, etc.

seal¹    https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DSeal"> ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sl)
n.

Angela wrote: I think I'd like to take a crack at what Community is saying and in the same vain support/argue both Community's statements and AhmadJoyia.  First off, my take on this thread is going to be different from a lot of people, as a Mormon, I believe the heavens are not close and god continues to have Prophets (mouth pieces) on Earth.  But, that belief stems from our belief in Jesus Christ and what we call the Great Apostacy.  For our beliefs in Prophets to work, first you must believe that after Jesus died that the true meanings of what was taught was lost, corrupted and ignored.  For us, the return of Prophets was God correcting the course of his straying flock.  Now, that being said, if you take Islamic beliefs, this does not work.  For a Prophet to return in Islam, it would have to mean that 1 Billion Muslims have gotten so far off the course Muhammed set in his teachings that God would have to send someone to put all of you back on course.  Now, given the push to teach all believers Arabic and to maintain the purity of the religion, no Muslim could accept the concept of a new Prophet.  To accept a new Prophet would to state that Islam was no longer the true religion, that is has become corrupted and twisted.  That would no longer make the person Muslim.  Now, does that mean that never, ever, ever would Allah send another Messanger.  If all Muslims continue to practice the Truths taught by the Messanger, the Prophet, then no, Allah would have no need of a new Prophet.  But, if Islam were to fall to corruption, then God would need to send another Prophet.  In either likelihood, the Last Days will probably arrive before that will ever be an issue.    Now, as for the word, SEAL.  We Mormons use this term everyday.  A husband and wife are not "married" they are "sealed for eternity" this is a finality.  To seal something is to cap it.  Once a canning jar is sealed by heat, nothing more can be put into the jar and nothing can be taken out until that seal is broken.  A seal is an end of sorts, so I looked up the definition.  The following definition was given by http://www.dictionary.com - http://www.dictionary.com and was not altered in any way, with the exception of making things bold or italicized, etc. seal1    https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DSeal"> ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sl) n. A die or signet having a raised or incised emblem used to stamp an impression on a receptive substance such as wax or lead. The impression so made. The design or emblem itself, belonging exclusively to the user: a monarch's seal. A small disk or wafer of wax, lead, or paper bearing such an imprint and affixed to a document to prove authenticity or to secure it. Something, such as a commercial hallmark, that authenticates, confirms, or attests. A substance, especially an adhesive agent such as wax or putty, used to close or secure something or to prevent seepage of moisture or air. A device that joins two systems or elements in such a way as to prevent leakage. An airtight closure. A closure, as on a package, used to prove that the contents have not been tampered with. A small decorative paper sticker. tr.v. sealed, seal��ing, seals To affix a seal to in order to prove authenticity or attest to accuracy, legal weight, quality, or another standard. To close with or as if with a seal. To close hermetically. To make fast or fill up, as with plaster or cement. To apply a waterproof coating to: seal a blacktop driveway. To grant, certify, or designate under seal or authority. To establish or determine irrevocably: Our fate was sealed. Mormon Church. To make (a marriage, for example) binding for life; solemnize forever. Phrasal Verb: seal off To close tightly or surround with a barricade or cordon: An unused wing of the hospital was sealed off. By, this definition, the Prophet Muhammed, in Islam, would be the Last Prophet of Allah.  (Notice part of the Mormon definition given by the website also says Solemize Forever.  When something is sealed by God, its forever unless God breaks it.) Now, that's just my views on it. Angela

SO there is a difference between Allah and god.

My dear bro firewall, thanks for your reminder about the ahadith, but if you would have noted, my bro Community has already excluded them from his list of acceptable references. Though I didn't agree to him on this exclusion of authentic ahadiths, but have yet not used them in my arguments. Hence, I would not even expect him to use them either. It is probably wise of him not to use them for his specific purpose only, though you have already provided a wonderful counter argument just in case he choses to go against his own rules. I appreciate it.  

Greeting Copenhagen,

I would like to comment on this�

Last semester I took an Islamic study course. Teacher is a Muslim, graduate of some prestigious Islamic college in Egypt. He told us that Muslims were expecting the second coming of Jesus, and that not all muslims would recognize who he was.

Did your teacher also tell you that the Koran is 99% Biblical material�?

As such, the Biblical second coming of Jesus has also been copied-over into the Koran�as we would predict�

In fact, here is a quick run-down of the Biblical material themes that you can expect to find in the Koran:

• Concept of Heaven
• Concept of Hell
• Concept of the Trinity
• Eschatology
• Second Death
• New Creation
• Jesus was Crucified
• Jesus was Resurrected
• Jesus is God Almighty

Etc, etc�

You will quickly discover that Islam (in many instances) is diametrically apposed to the teachings revealed in the classic Arabic of their book of faith.

This has occurred from the horrendous Arabic language corruption that has ensued since the Koran was first penned in the classic Arabic.

80% of modern Muslims are not even Arabs�and the ones that do understand Arabic, only look to the modern Arabic definitions and rarely to the ancient classic Arabic definitions in which their book of faith was penned.

Most Muslims are too steeped in Islam to care what their book of faith really states.

 
 
So, to clarify my point from what I was taught:
There is Jesus -> Muhammad -> Jesus
Not all Muslims will recognize Jesus.
Muhammad was the last prophet, but, relatively speaking, he isn't the final prophet. (In my context, for Muhammad to be the "final" prophet, one would need to be alive from the time of Jesus.)

It is dubious that Islam�s �prophet� is even mentioned in their book of faith�let alone actually point-blank called a prophet.

This is yet another Islamic myth that is exploded when properly investigated�much like the claim of a 1400 year old (and never changed) Koran�.!

Thanks for your time�

Greetings copenhagen,

Thanks for your reply�

Sorry, too many points to address, so I'll just stick with one. Please feel free to bring up any others if they are more important.

I don't see where your post was leading, or what I am to conclude. From this opening sentence, you sound hostile to the Qur'an. Sorry, I don't swing that way.

I seem to have a writing tone which some read as being aggressive. Were you thinking I'd agree with you? Nope.

With all due respect, your reply is typical of a Muslim�are you one�?

You are completely free to do whatever you wish with the information contained within my posts.

Feel free to clear up any of these most important misunderstandings first.

Quran is 99% biblical? Let's look at that
a) no, it's not 99%.

If you doubt my figure; then go ahead and pick any portion of the Koran that you feel is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence.

Remember�you have the entire Koran in which to choose from�

Good luck.

b) the Quran often says that the teachings of the bible are loosly based on the truth, as such, there should be a high percentage of overlap, with the Quran merely setting the record straight. As such, there should be a high percent of similar sounding material, just not 99%.

Actually, nowhere in the entire Koran does it state that the written word of God (i.e. the Holy Bible) to be in error in any manner whatsoever�

The authors of the Koran have only high praise for their source material.

You can verify this as truth for yourself, if you are up to the task�

Secondly, nowhere in the entire Koran does it ever state that that it is �correcting� or �clarifying� the Holy Bible in any manner whatsoever.

You can also verify this as truth for yourself, if you are up to the task�

The Koran is merely a collection of the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures. 

The Koran can only copy.

Nothing more.

I don't know what this has to do with the final days, really.

Koranic Eschatology is defined by the Biblical Book of Revelation.

This is probably something that your teacher also failed to mention in class.

Shame on him�

Teacher was REALLY into it. He got all excited, and told us to make sure to tell our families, because it was so important. This was in a class that was "99%" non-muslim. Spent a good deal of time on the topic. I normally shun such discussion, but his enthusiasm really made it interesting.

With all due respect, it sounds like your teacher needs to go back to class�

Take care�

Greetings firewall,

Thanks for adding your comments�

Jesus, Moses and Muhammad are all Allah's prophets. so if you ask wether they carry the same message, i must say they do. muslims believe in Jesus & Moses's message just the same as we believe in Muhammad's message. it's the same religion from Allah.

Please show us where in the Koran that it states that �Muhammad� was a �prophet��

& Quran spreads the truth about Jesus, which might be in contrast with some Christian sects. the Quran states that he wasn't son of God, he wasn't murdered on the cross, & Allah saved him by taking him to Allah. is that in the bible?

You are speaking from the vantage point of Islam�.and not the Koran.

The Koran clearly states that Jesus is the son of God (�allah� in this case).

The Koran also clearly states that Jesus was Crucified and Resurrected and that He judges the dead.

"It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son ['Isa (Jesus)]. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is." [Quran 19:35]

Please show us the Arabic word for �son��.

"Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was." [Quran 3:59]

3.59 does not show that Jesus was �created� as Adam was�.

& i've read that even 'Isa (Jesus) had prophesized of the coming of prophet Muhammad. Dr MT al-Hilali (noble Quran) takes verse John 14:15-16, John 15:26-27, John 16:5-8, John 16:12-14 as his basis. this is from Dr al Hilali's article, I'm just quoting him.

Please show us Islam�s �prophet�s� name in the Holy Bible�

Good luck�

i have read some amazing scientific notes in the Quran. is these in the Jewish and Christian scriptures too?

1. Expanding Space

With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.  [Quran, 51:47]

This comes from the Book of Isaiah�

2. Heaven-earth once joined, all living things are water based

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? [Quran, 21:30]

According to General and Special Relativity (GR & SR); the heavens, and the earth were never joined and then split.  The Creation of the Universe was initially composed of infinitely hot pure energy that later cooled and formed mass.  Mass is simply another form of energy.  Mass and energy are not split.  This follows Einstein�s famous equation E = mc^2.

3. Stages of human creation

Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest (the womb), firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the Best to create! [Quran, 23:13-14]

This comes from the Book of Job�

4. Source of honey is from bee's bellies

And your Lord inspired the bee, saying: "Take you habitations in the mountains and in the trees and in what they erect". "Then, eat of all fruits, and follow the ways of your Lord made easy (for you)." There comes forth from their bellies, a drink of varying colour wherein is healing for men. Verily, in this is indeed a sign for people who think. Quran, [16:68-69]

This comes from the Book of Revelation and has nothing at all to do with honey bees�

5. Source of milk is between excretions and blood

And verily! In the cattle, there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies, from between excretions and blood, pure milk; palatable to the drinkers.  [Quran, 16:66]

This comes from the Book of Revelation and has nothing at all to do with the source of milk�

and many more....

And�many more times the authors of the Koran borrowed Biblical material�

Thanks�

Greetings Copenhagen,

Thanks for your reply�

Nope, not even close. But if you want to debate just how asinine it is for one to vainly attempt to degrade the Quran with only a handful of ignorant ideas in a forum of Muslims steeped in a rich tradition with way more knowledge than yourself, well, start a new thread

I'll be on you like a dog on bone.

Yup�.you are a Muslim�

If you want to share your ideas of the second coming of Jesus in a way I can understand, then I'm all ears (or eyes, as it is).

Well�.since you don�t understand Arabic, where exactly would you like to begin�.?

And P.S. -- Don't dis my teacher. He ain't here. I feel I can make a snide comment, because I'll also back him up with a thousand kind words to refute my own claim. But to disrespect him without a bit of knowledge, that is asking for trouble. I'd think any religious faith of worth would teach a basic principle that it's not nice to be insulting a person who isn't present. Am I to assume that your faith lacks that principle? (notice you didn't hear a peep from the muslims here on this matter?)

Since you are a novice, perhaps you need to have your teacher step in for you on these discussions�just a thought�

Btw�thanks for declining my offer to bring forth ANY portion of the Koran that you feel is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence�.this tells us all we need to know�

Take care�

Apple Pie,

I am presenting you a FACT.  And if you disagree look in to the history of The Bible and how it was compilied.

A.  The Bible is NOT the written word of God.  It is impossible, because the New Testament was complied from witness' during Jesus time.  They wrote what they saw & what they heard and it is only a PERSPECTIVE OF THE TRUTH!

B.  Different Kings after the time of Jesus, would compile different stories to fit thier kingdome (Side history note: Kings would make thier servents believe that they are from the lineage of a Prophet).  That is why there are so many DIFFERENT versions of The Bible.

And if you disagree with this you are not worth the time and effort.

Peace & Blessings, Lehua

Greetings Lehua,

Thanks for adding your comments�

I am presenting you a FACT.  And if you disagree look in to the history of The Bible and how it was compilied.

A.  The Bible is NOT the written word of God.  It is impossible, because the New Testament was complied from witness' during Jesus time.  They wrote what they saw & what they heard and it is only a PERSPECTIVE OF THE TRUTH!

 B.  Different Kings after the time of Jesus, would compile different stories to fit thier kingdome (Side history note: Kings would make thier servents believe that they are from the lineage of a Prophet).  That is why there are so many DIFFERENT versions of The Bible.

If you believe that the Holy Bible is not what it should be; then why did the authors� of the Koran proclaim it to be completely truthful�?

Moreover�why is the Koran 99% Biblical material..?

Your comments emanate from Islam and NOT the Koran itself�

And if you disagree with this you are not worth the time and effort.

Now�.this is not quite the cheerful spirit�now is it�?

Take care�

Let me explain.

I am not slamming the Bible, I hold it true that it is eye witness accounts of Jesus' life and that its teachings are truthful.  I am not denying that it is a Holy Book.  I am not saying that my book is better than yours, they are differnet and need to be addressed differently.  The Koran is one of God's miracles, no book has ever been written or will ever be written that can match it.

However (in my own opinion) to state that The Bible is "the written word of God" is untruthful.  Please explain to me how personal accounts of Jesus' life is the written word of God. (We might need to start a new thread.)

We were talking about Mohammed (pbuh) and how he was the last prophet.

Peace & Blessings, Lehua

Greetings Lehua,

I would like to comment on this�

I am not slamming the Bible, I hold it true that it is eye witness accounts of Jesus' life and that its teachings are truthful.  I am not denying that it is a Holy Book.  I am not saying that my book is better than yours, they are differnet and need to be addressed differently.  

Exactly how do they differ�?

Other than the Koran being a second-hand translation of the Biblical Hebrew and Greek translated into Arabic�with a smattering of heretical Jewish and Christian scriptures thrown in for good measure�

The Koran is one of God's miracles, no book has ever been written or will ever be written that can match it.

If you feel this way about a copy�then we can only imagine your true feelings for its source material�

However (in my own opinion) to state that The Bible is "the written word of God" is untruthful. 

Then perhaps you could trust the authors� who penned your book of faith who state that the holy Bible is completely and utterly trustworthy in all manner of things�

After all, Islamic opinion holds absolutely no credibility when compared to what their book of faith actually states�

These are two completely different things�

Please explain to me how personal accounts of Jesus' life is the written word of God. (We might need to start a new thread.)

The same way that Jesus� life is portrayed in your book of faith�

Unless, of course, you deny what the authors of the Koran wrote�

We were talking about Mohammed (pbuh) and how he was the last prophet.

It is dubious that Islam�s �prophet� is even mentioned in their book of faith.

Please show us ALL of the ayahs in which it specifically mentions him as a �prophet��

Good luck�

Greetings Sam,

Thanks for your reply�

  
You have an interesting take, as I currenly see it. But, I may be way wrong. I think you are saying the the Quran presents your concept of Jesus. And your idea of Jesus is more in line with many traditional views of Christ. Am I close?

Pretty close�Sam�

History points to the authors� of the Koran as beings Christians in the first place�

The classic Arabic (in which the Koran was penned) is basically a re-telling the Biblical material primarily from Genesis & Revelation�with a healthy smattering of books in between�and even some heretical Jewish & Christian scriptures tossed in as well�

The classic Koranic Arabic recollection of Jesus is the same as that told in the Holy Bible�.thus, it is not �my concept��but once derived from the scriptures�

If so, that is a unique take on things.

It could be revolutionary.

At least, to the unlearned.

I'm familiar with the Muslims saying Jesus is Muslim, and find passages of the Bible.

Perhaps you could share these with us�

But, now, I think you are saying Muhammad was a Christian (I warned you above :P). Is that a fair estimate?

Not exactly.

It is dubious that Islam�s �prophet� is even mentioned in their book of faith�.let alone attributing the penning of it to him.

There are no extant Koran�s to within a century of the life and times of their supposed �prophet��only fragments of suras�.and that is all.

Thus�.there is absolutely no evidence of an original Koran�nor of a 1400 year old one�both are complete and utter myths�

So, this really does tie in with the "Last Prophet" theme of the thread? Neat.

Yes�

Again, please correct any point I may be misunderstanding.

On a final note, Please don't call me a Muslim -- I may be the most shirk riddled gent you've ever met. But I believe in proper manners, and the Muslims I do know are the best mannered folk I know.

Ok.

You do seem to vacillate back and forth�perhaps in an attempt to see which faith you could actually defend (if called upon to do so)�

Trust us�.Unless Muslims adhere to the classic Arabic of the Koran (but which ones do?....and take Jesus as their Lord and Savior)�then Islam is a dead-end road.

Period.

Thanks�

Greetings Sam,

Let�s review your vacillating comments�

This is going to branch WAY off topic

It is my opinion that the silliest thing anyone ever did was to write these books. It's my ignorant opinion that Muhammad, sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam, was onto something by NOT making a formal book of the Quran, and Jesus, 'Alayh is'Salam, didn't leave anything written in his hand.

Please tell us just how a written �agreement� holds-up in court verses a verbal �agreement�.

Things are written down so as to eliminate losses due to memorization�and for physical evidence of what has transpired.

Muslims are doing something very right with the oral tradition of the Quran. You speak it, you study it, one on one, with a teacher so it can be explained how it applies to your life today.

Oral traditions are worthless.  Period.

Physical evidence is where it is at�

That is why the books have been written down.

The morals are timeless, but each generation, and each person, has little quirks. By making the Quran spoken, you force that interpersonal aspect.

By making things oral, you have no guarantee that things will be passed down correctly.

That is why Muslims succumbed to a written Koran.

I think Christianity became too hooked on the written word whereby the teachings are handed down in printed form for an individual to read or have read to them.

How would you even know�?

I think this oral tradition of Islam helps keep the original message intact.

Dead wrong.

If this was the case, then there would have been no need to write it down in the first place.

So, you get a screwball here and there, but for the majority, this personal teaching of the Quran is what has helped "Muslims adhere to the classic Arabic of the Koran" (using your words).

Muslims don�t adhere to the classic Arabic�.hence, your argument is one from ignorance�

So, in this context of my understanding, your comment that "Islam is a dead-end road" just doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn�t make sense to you because you don�t know what you want to believe�

You are in no-man�s land at the moment�vacillating back and forth until your mommy tells you its bed time�

Muslims have the warm oral traditions dating back to day one.

Prove it�.

Christianity has a smattering of cold, disconnected theological books written here and there.

Again�prove it�.

Take care of yourself..

Prove it? you prove to me that Jesus died on the cross, and refferences to books are no proofs because the possibility the claims from books can be wrong since it is the work of man, and man can lie deceive and be wrong for a number of reasons, mostly because they want power. So proof is something that is self evident. And not "it says here in the book."

In psalms 118 verse 8 we read "it is better to seek refuge in the Lord, then to trust in man",

This is a self evident proof, it is true, because man can lie deceive and be wrong, The Lord does not and The Lord is the manifest truth, because the creation can not exist without a creator and The Creator is The Lord, He gave us everything to use and to eat from and drink, so we should be thankful to Him, the basis of faith is thankfulness, and only the disbeliever is unthankful. In arabic the word kafir(disbeliever) means someone who is ungrateful. Because man can lied deceive and be wrong it is better to seek refuge in Him who is The manifest Truth, The Creator then to trust man and accept his words without proof except words from a book, the work of men.

And what if your book says Jesus died on the cross? why should i accept these words? do not come with words from your book or your feelings because i do not accept them, except if you have evident proofs, because that book is man's work people wrote it and man can lie deceive and be wrong, so man's words should not be taken as truths unless he has proofs to back it up and proofs ofcourse are not "feelings" one experiences because i can not look into your heart or know if you are truthful or not or words from a book or claims, men's works=not trust worthy, not on such important issues as The Truth.

So even if you put the argument forward that the koran is man's work also, then i tell you this does not change the reality of a creation existing and this creation can not exist without a Creator, and this creator i am thankful to. This is what Allah asks from us in the koran, and your claim this creator is Jesus is a lie because you have no self evident proof what so ever to back up your claim except words from a book, or interpretation of these words. And you are a man and those who wrote the book are men, so i seek refuge in The Lord who is The Creator, The Merciful, instead of trusting your words, or the words of other men. Truth has come and falsehood has vanished, and falsehood is a vanishing thing. Because He is The Truth, and The Truth is what will remain, and all falsehood will come to an end, sooner rather then later if you have understanding.

This is for the faithful here, but you can read it if you wish.

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee(innee mutawaffeeka, does this mean make you die?) ,and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee over those who reject faith to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

So his true follower are superior to those who reject faith to the day of resurrection.

Greetings Community,

Thanks for your comments�

Prove it? you prove to me that Jesus died on the cross, and refferences to books are no proofs because the possibility the claims from books can be wrong since it is the work of man, and man can lie deceive and be wrong for a number of reasons, mostly because they want power. So proof is something that is self evident. And not "it says here in the book."

Our position can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt just by exegeting the classic Arabic of your book of faith.

Period.

And what if your book says Jesus died on the cross? why should i accept these words? do not come with words from your book or your feelings because i do not accept them, except if you have evident proofs, because that book is man's work people wrote it and man can lie deceive and be wrong, so man's words should not be taken as truths unless he has proofs to back it up and proofs ofcourse are not "feelings" one experiences because i can not look into your heart or know if you are truthful or not or words from a book or claims, men's works=not trust worthy, not on such important issues as The Truth.

You should accept that Jesus was Crucified, was Resurrected, and is worshiped as God Almighty because it is stated in your book of faith.

To deny this is to turn your back on your book of faith.

Perhaps you would rather blindly and loyally follow Islam instead of your book of faith�

So even if you put the argument forward that the koran is man's work also, then i tell you this does not change the reality of a creation existing and this creation can not exist without a Creator, and this creator i am thankful to. This is what Allah asks from us in the koran, and your claim this creator is Jesus is a lie because you have no self evident proof what so ever to back up your claim except words from a book, or interpretation of these words. And you are a man and those who wrote the book are men, so i seek refuge in The Lord who is The Creator, The Merciful, instead of trusting your words, or the words of other men. Truth has come and falsehood has vanished, and falsehood is a vanishing thing. Because He is The Truth, and The Truth is what will remain, and all falsehood will come to an end, sooner rather then later if you have understanding.

Again�we can prove our position solely from the classic Arabic of your book of faith.

Are you up to that task�.or do you want to turn your back�and run away�?

This is for the faithful here, but you can read it if you wish.

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee(innee mutawaffeeka, does this mean make you die?) ,and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee over those who reject faith to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

So his true follower are superior to those who reject faith to the day of resurrection.

The ayah that you just quoted tells us that Jesus died.

There are several Koranic ayahs that that state that Jesus died. 

Jesus even states this Himself in the Koran.

Sura 86 details His (i.e. the Morning Star) death as:

• A crucifixion event
• A Resurrection
• He judges the dead

Simply amazing�

Greetings Noah,

Thanks for adding your comments�

Apple pie, stop lying, you can prove nothing.

Since when is exposing the truth, lying�?

Furthermore, I can prove my position easily.

And i will be happy to show all the debates you tossed yourself into at free-minds and was nailed down on twisting and distortion of the scriptur to your own end. Every single time you where nailed down, you are just to bigotted and obnoxious to know.

Be our guest�

Thanks�

Lehua wrote: ..............However (in my own opinion) to state that The Bible is "the written word of God" is untruthful.  Please explain to me how personal accounts of Jesus' life is the written word of God. (We might need to start a new thread.) We were talking about Mohammed (pbuh) and how he was the last prophet. Peace & Blessings, Lehua

I think your reminder has fallen on deaf ears and let me try to re-remind them of the decorum of this forum.

So my dear brothers, all of you who want to discuss anything other than the topic of this thread, kindly go and open up a new thread and don't mingle up the actual issue. This would save me for not complaining to the moderator. Thanks for your cooperation.

Greetings Sam,

Thanks for your reply�

You are such fun :) I think you have a really neat point you are trying to make, but, oh, it's the method of preaching that is lacking.

We find your vacillating style rather odd as well�

What are you today�.Christian�or Muslim�.or aren�t you too sure�.?

I rest my case :)

Jesus wrote not one single word for us. There is NO physical writing from the man Jesus. Using YOUR reasoning on the importance of the written word, there is NOTHING from Jesus (Peace be upon him).

If you doubt what has been written then test it�

Thanks�

My bro Apple pie, I hope you are not among the ones who have "deaf ears". Kindly abide by the guidelines of the forum and discuss only that which is relevent to the issue. Thanks.

My belief is that .... We are the Messiah, the Prophets, the Manifestations of God, the Buddha, the Bramha and the People of Spirit a Living Messiah in the Multitudes, not one of us but all of us.  We are all Messengers of God and we are all equally responsible for the care and well being of each other and the World.

There have been Prophets since the first man and there will be Prophets til the last man, woman and child.

Though I have to say I found it interesting that someone wrote a Poem about animal Prophets.

Apple pie is a german invention, and i like apple pie.

Try to understand where i am when you tell me your views Apple pie,

You tell me to believe things and accept them on the basis that you are telling them to me with back up from books written by men, i simply can not accept it, i fear my Lord who will judge with truth, with truth means falsehoods will not last in the face of it, so what if what you tell me is not the truth and i accept them as truths, how will i be on the day of judgement before Him when He judges with truth? and when only the truth is accepted and falsehoods will come to an end? i fear Him so i do not wish to be humiliated with me chosing to accept accept something without any proof of it being the truth. i know christians are known for their love and compassion so i hope you will understand that i will not and can not accept the words of men when their is no proof except the use of men's work(written words). man can lie deceive and be wrong, so I am sure The Lord will understand me not accepting their words. I fear Him and i try to be as truthful as possible, and i hope it is enough.

My dear bro Community, I hope you would let by gone be bye gone with all the comments not related to the topic of this thread. If you have any thing related, you are most welcome to present for your argumentation.

Sis amlhabibi2000, thanks for your input, but over here, the issue is being discussed on the basis of evidence only, other than that, your faith is quite respectable to be heard by all of us. Cheers!

Bro Apple Pie, I understand its difficult to leave the topic unanswered, but this is what the discipline of the forum requires. Kindly stop repleying on this thread, if your reply doesn't conform to the topic of this thread. I hope, you as well as others, would listen to my request. There is ample space elsewhere in the forum to discuss such points under appropriate threads, than littering it every where. Thanks.

I've just read this thread and I've come to conclude the following:

Apple Pie does not realize that "Classical Arabic" is not very different from the standard Arabic spoken today by any school educated Arab. Modern Arabic to "Classical Arabic" is NOT Modern English to Medieval English.

Greetings Deus,

Thanks for your reply�

I've just read this thread and I've come to conclude the following:

Apple Pie does not realize that "Classical Arabic" is not very different from the standard Arabic spoken today by any school educated Arab. Modern Arabic to "Classical Arabic" is NOT Modern English to Medieval English.

Unfortunately, you could not be more incorrect.

Modern Arabic is a horrendously corrupted language.  Hence, the need for the classic lexicons in the first place.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Thanks for your reply�

Though, this is little of the topic, but to clarify something for you, bro Deus, is to note that when St. Apple Pie was refering to "classical arabic" he meant word to word translation of Quran and not the "made easy" kind of translation for common understanding generally available. However, he failed to realize that this "made easy" kind of translation is only very recent phenomena before which all translations of Quran, if any, were done on word to word basis. Hence, Quran being preserved in original language, has no problem in transitioning from word to word translation to "made easy" kind of translation, simply because we have the original with us. Alhamdollilha.

We can see that you are still having great difficulty holding to the theme of this thread�.this will be your final warning to comply with the rules of this forum�.

As far a having the �original� Koran; this is patently false.

There are no �original� Korans anywhere in the world�.only mere fragments that date to a century after the supposed life and times of Islam�s �prophet��

Feel free to verify this as truth from Islamic awareness�

Have fun�

Greetings Community,

Thanks for your comments�.and I appreciate that you like apple pie as well�

You tell me to believe things and accept them on the basis that you are telling them to me with back up from books written by men, i simply can not accept it, i fear my Lord who will judge with truth, with truth means falsehoods will not last in the face of it, so what if what you tell me is not the truth and i accept them as truths, how will i be on the day of judgement before Him when He judges with truth? and when only the truth is accepted and falsehoods will come to an end? i fear Him so i do not wish to be humiliated with me chosing to accept accept something without any proof of it being the truth. i know christians are known for their love and compassion so i hope you will understand that i will not and can not accept the words of men when their is no proof except the use of men's work(written words). man can lie deceive and be wrong, so I am sure The Lord will understand me not accepting their words. I fear Him and i try to be as truthful as possible, and i hope it is enough.

I have a question for you�

Did you acquire your understanding of your faith position by merely oral means�.or did you do some reading along the way�?

If you did some reading, then guess what�.?

You are reading the words of mere mortal flesh and blood men.

If you have ever read the Koran, then you have read the words of men.  Period.

The authors� of the Koran are quite specific that they only COPIED the previous scriptures.  In fact, they fall all over themselves telling us where they obtained there material from.

You won�t find the Holy Bible claiming to have taken material from the Koran.

Only the Koran makes this claim.

If you trust in your Koran (written by sinful men) then how hard can it be for you to see what they are telling you�?!

They are pointing you to their source�i.e. the Holy Bible.

Time to read your book of faith instead of clinging to the man-made Islam�

Take care of yourself�

Apple Pie wrote: Unfortunately, you could not be more incorrect. Modern Arabic is a horrendously corrupted language.  Hence, the need for the classic lexicons in the first place.

Proof? Citation?
Did you know that Arab people today (with only highschool level of education) still read and fully understand pre-Islamic Arabic literature?

Observe these interesting comments by Lane�

Every language without a written literature tends to decay more than to development by reason of foreign influences; and the history of the Arabic exhibits an instance of decay remarkably rapid, and extraordinary in degree.  An immediate consequence of the foreign conquests achieved by the Arabs under Mohammad�s first four successors was an extensive corruption of their language; for the nations that they subdued were naturally obliged to adopt in a great measure the speech of the conquerors, a speech which few persons have ever acquired in such a degree as to be secure from the commission of frequent errors in grammar without learning it from infancy�.      Such being the case, it became a matter of the highest importance to the Arabs to preserve the knowledge of that speech which had thus become obsolescent, and to draw a distinct line between the classical and the post-classical languages.  For the former language was that of the Kur-an and of the Traditions of Mohammad, the sources of their religious, moral, civil, criminal, and political code� and they possessed, in that language, preserved by oral tradition, - [size=18]for the art of writing, in Arabia, had been almost exclusively confined to Christians and Jews�.   The classical language they called, by reason of its incomparable excellence, �el-loghah,� or �the language:� and the line between this and the post-classical was easily drawn, on account of the almost sudden commencement, and rapid progress, of the corruption.   �.I often have found in my knowledge of modern Arabic a solution of a difficulty; but without great caution, such knowledge would frequently have misled me, in consequence of the changes which have taken place in the applications of many words since the classical age.     References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. vii � viii; xxii - xxiii

My Dear St. Apple Pie good to see you around and hear you with the same traits of STS relationship (BTW, do ask if you forgot about STS). Here is another example of your close association with St. Paul.

"........As far a having the �original� Koran; this is patently false. 

There are no �original� Korans anywhere in the world�.only mere fragments that date to a century after the supposed life and times of Islam�s �prophet��"

My dear, here these fragments are the source of undeniable fact of existance and originality of Quran since its inception. On the more, my allusion of originality was purely based on "original language".

 However, can we apply the same test to your NT what to talk of its unknown authorship? You even don't have the Bible in its original language what to even ask for evidence of any other kind. On the more, I have now started questioning your own scholarship when you quote so levishly from NT, without even realising whose its author were. Though you are quite comfortable to pick on Quran, but have you ever reflected in your own innerself concerning Bible? You would only see a draconian image of merciless historical events brutalizing the lost gospel of Jesus, by no other than the Christian Kings and preists themselves on the name of canonization.