Free Iraq
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Topic: Free Iraq
Posted By: b95000
Subject: Free Iraq
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 12:25am
Kathleen A asked:
http://afreeiraqi.blogspot.com/ - When the history of this time is written
- do you think historians will acknowledge that a horrible dictator was
removed, freeing the Iraqi people? Or do you think this important point
will always be lost on those hell-bent on ignoring the GOOD and only
highlighting the bad?
Ali: I think no one would be
able to deny or ignore that a horrible dictator was removed and I trust
that history will judge those who opposed Iraq freedom very harshly
just as it will honor all those who worked to free Iraq.
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Replies:
Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 2:02am
Bismillah
Ask yourself, was it only for the removal of a horrible dictator?
------------- MOCKBA
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Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 11:03am
And if so, why weren't the rest of the horrible dictators in the world removed as well?
------------- Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 11:48am
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 8:02am
Mockba, please, do not pose such difficult questions.
Have you ever seen a killer ever stand up and not justify his crime with a hundred excuses? What is it called? I would rather not mention that particular term. (Just wish to stay on this forum a while longer)
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 8:11am
And, please, always remember when Americans are around that the US has never made any mistakes (forget about the crimes against humanity) in her entire history.
And, please, never even breathe about the UN resolutions tossed away by Israel with US support. Or, of those vetoed by the US. Also remember that good old Greek saying; "When gods decide to destroy a people, they begin by ceasing their powers of reasoning". Please just think of that when any Americans refuse to see anything beyond their confines of arrogance.
Just smile and ignore them!!!
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 8:13am
Who is working to free Iraq (Sorry, I mean Eyerak)?
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 4:43pm
Whisper wrote:
Mockba, please, do not pose such difficult questions.
Have you ever seen a killer ever stand up and not justify his crime with a hundred excuses? What is it called? I would rather not mention that particular term. (Just wish to stay on this forum a while longer) |
Are you Sasha, calling me a killer and a criminal or using it
metaphorically to describe me? Wow, aren't you clever? Care
to explain yourself at all?
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 4:51pm
Whisper wrote:
Who is working to free Iraq (Sorry, I mean Eyerak)? |
Iraq is free from Saddam's mass murdering tyranny and now she must be
freed from those who would kill children, slaugther children as a
political or military 'statment.' Sick people these.
Brave Iraqis and people of goodwill from 29 nations (at least)...have freed Iraq and will maintain a free Iraq.
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 4:56pm
Whisper wrote:
And,
please, always remember when Americans are around that the US has never
made any mistakes (forget about the crimes against humanity) in her
entire history...Please just think of that when any Americans refuse to see anything beyond their confines of arrogance...Just smile and ignore them!!!
B:
I would never say this (not that you care what I say or think) and
really your base mockery and disrespect, Sasha, is not
constructive. But if you must..
And, please,
never even breathe about the UN resolutions tossed away by Israel with
US support. Or, of those vetoed by the US. Also remember that good old
Greek saying; "When gods decide to destroy a people, they begin by ceasing their powers of reasoning".
B: Why don't you just give us a few specifics? Thank you..
May the great God bless you all and bless your families - the One from Whom all families derive their name..
|
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 3:06am
It's no mockery my friend. Just a bit of straight advice to a fellow poster who was spending too much breath on a slippery character - from a chap who has had a chance to sample the delights of American intellect while living on both sides of the Detroit River.
To insist that some "people of goodwill" are occupying a country is actual mockery of humanity.
You live in the States. I am sure you must know how many resolutions against Israel your country has vetoed? Or, how many have been binned with explicit US support?
Now, pretending not to know a simple straight fact is real mockery. Not to know such facts while pretending to know all is a tragedy. Now you understand why I have all my sympathies with the Americans and always protect them from such hard times of being forced to face the truth?
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Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 1:54pm
Whisper wrote:
And, please, always remember when Americans are around that the US has never made any mistakes (forget about the crimes against humanity) in her entire history.
|
can you tell me any country or people in existance today that have never committed crimes against humanity ? people are not all good and not all bad, there is a mixture in all parts of the world.
------------- Peace, its more than a word its a dream.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 7:17am
My friend, did I ever say that no country or people have ever made any mistakes? Or, ever implied that? All I am saying is that it's the hardest for our American friends to take responsibilty of their actions of the past half centrury.
Not only that but mostly they come charging as if the US has never made a single mistake in her entire history. Some agree that their admin lied to take them to this war. But when it comes to some other spins of their same admin, say about their occupations, these very people take offence.
We can not solve problems unless and until all side take responsibities of their mistakes, their crimes. Our world will never taste peace without truth and justice.
Switzerland and Sweden seem to have a clean record on crimes against humanity.
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Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 8:50am
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 3:46pm
Whisper wrote:
It's
no mockery my friend. Just a bit of straight advice to a fellow poster
who was spending too much breath on a slippery character..
B: 'slippery character?' Huh? You really do enjoy ad hominem attacks, don't you?
To insist that some "people of goodwill" are occupying a country is actual mockery of humanity.
B:
People of goodwill include Iraqis, of course, and 28 MNF nations who
are now sacrificing on their behalf...you call that a mockery of
humanity? What part of 'sovereign government' don't you get Sasha?
You live in
the States. I am sure you must know how many resolutions against Israel
your country has vetoed? Or, how many have been binned with explicit US
support?
B:
I know. But why don't you elaborate on the specifics as I've
asked and which is reasonable to ask of the one doing the
criticizing...Are you comparing Israel with Iraq under Saddam, by the
way (for starters)?
Now, pretending not to know a simple straight fact is real mockery. Not to know such facts while pretending to know all
is a tragedy. Now you understand why I have all my sympathies with
the Americans and always protect them from such hard times of being
forced to face the truth?
B:
Your quippy witticisms get you nowhere fast. Now, why don't you
tell me the 'facts' and the 'truth' I'm not facing so I can eat that
humble pie you're so dying to feed me..
|
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 3:59pm
Whisper wrote:
My
friend, did I ever say that no country or people have ever made any
mistakes? Or, ever implied that? All I am saying is that it's the
hardest for our American friends to take responsibilty of their actions
of the past half centrury.
B:
It is hard or impossible for our Spanish/British friend to be balanced
in his diatribes and pontifications...and yet he demands contrition
from across the ocean...interesting approach that.
Not only that
B: Oh there's more deleterious commentary on the US? - that's a shocker..
but
mostly they come charging as if the US has never made a single mistake
in her entire history. Some agree that their admin lied to take them to
this war. But when it comes to some other spins of their same admin,
say about their occupations, these very people take offence.
B:
Hmmm...if I was to engage in a ad naseum diatribe against Spain for
half an hour - do you suppose Sasha would take offense? I think
Sasha is demanding that which he will not himself give..there's a word
for that...hmmm...
BTW:
I never have suggested that the US is perfect and has not done some
evil deeds...as has Spain, Britain, Saudi, Iraq, Iran...........
We can not solve problems unless and until
all side take responsibities of their mistakes, their crimes. Our world
will never taste peace without truth and justice.
B:
The problems you wish to solve are, apparently, only and ever caused by
the US, and not by any other human being or set of human beings
(nation). And so how can we take your rantings to heart when this
is your modus operandi? |
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 4:00pm
If you know it all then why would I waste my breath on someone who is by now known to just slip out of questions? Kindly sell your fiction of Eyerakis supporting the US in home market. It may spin well there.
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 4:07pm
Could you sometimes also talk in plain simple English? Or, is it taht you have nothing to say, really.
I am not demanding anything at all. I can take any criticism of my country and also accept our mistakes with an open heart. I am not an American.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 5:27pm
Whisper wrote:
why would I waste my breath on someone who is by now known to just slip out of questions? |
If someone
asks you to clarify a question, that is them slipping out of it?
Sorry, the only thing slipping in that case is your logic. I will gladly
answer questions and have done so since I joined here.
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 5:30pm
Whisper wrote:
If you know it all then why would I waste my breath... |
Sasha, it's called discussion - I certainly don't 'know it all' nor think so...so why can't we discuss the facts without making personal barbs disguised as witticisms?
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 5:31pm
Whisper wrote:
I
am not demanding anything at all. I can take any criticism of my
country and also accept our mistakes with an open heart. I am not an
American. |
We'll wait with anticipation of your negative critique of Spain or Afghanistan prior to the liberation...
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 8:03pm
Whisper wrote:
Switzerland and Sweden seem to have a clean record on crimes against humanity.
|
Whisper, you do seem to be a highly intelectual person with much knowledge which i respect very much.
I was curious Whisper, what would your response be to my reply about Switzerland and Sweden ?
------------- Peace, its more than a word its a dream.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 1:45pm
I am flattered though I am just a peasant. Please define "crimes against humanity" so that we may decide what Switzerland and Sweden should be charged with.
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 1:51pm
Bruce, thare are people in our world who are not bound by their feelings for a country. Is it possible for someone to hold global human concern and be motivated only by what's right and what's wrong for any soul anywhere in our little world?
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 2:03pm
Whisper wrote:
Bruce,
thare are people in our world who are not bound by their feelings for a
country. Is it possible for someone to hold global human concern
and be motivated only by what's right and what's wrong for any soul
anywhere in our little world? |
B:
Interesting thoughts. Yes, we should be motivated by some things
higher than our affection for our nation/people/tribe, I agree with
that (though a 'stupid' American.) I am also, like you I'm surmising, not bound by feelings about a specific country; in my case about the USA.
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 2:04pm
You keep talking about prior to "liberation" Afghanistan. A society is not a computer that we can pick it up and upgrade it just like that in a few days. If "elections" acted like some magic wand to change lives and countries like that then every country will be holding one every week for the fastest effect.
You wish to now how Afghanistan has changed after the "liberation"? I believe Sidney Blumenthal is quite a prominent American. Not some Imam.
Democracy was only an afterthought The situation in Afghanistan is one of barely managed chaos Sidney Blumenthal Thursday July 21, 2005 http://www.guardian.co.uk/ - The Guardian
On the day of the London bombings, President Bush proclaimed: "The war on terror goes on." Through the 2004 campaign, his winning theme was terror. He achieved the logic of a unified field theory connecting Iraq to Afghanistan by threading terror through both, despite the absence of evidence. He insisted that if we didn't fight the terrorists there, we would be fighting them at home. In January, the CIA's thinktank, the National Intelligence Council, issued a report describing Iraq as the magnet and training and recruiting ground for terrorism. The false rationale for the invasion had become a self-fulfilling prophecy. With his popularity flagging, Bush returned to the formulations that succeeded in his campaign.
In Bush's "global war on terror" (Gwot), Iraq and Afghanistan present one extended battlefield against a common enemy - and the strategy is and must be the same. So far as Bush is concerned, it's always either the day after 9/11 or the day before the Iraq invasion. Time stands still at two ideal political moments. But his consequences since are barely managed chaos.
"I was horrified by the president's last speech [on the war on terror], so much unsaid, so much disingenuous, so many half truths," said James Dobbins, Bush's first envoy to Afghanistan, now director of international programmes at the Rand Corporation. Afghanistan is now the scene of a Taliban revival, chronic Pashtun violence, dominance by US-supported warlords who have become narco-lords, and a human rights black hole.
From the start, he said, the effort in Afghanistan was "grossly underfunded and undermanned". The military doctrine was the first error. "The US focus on force protection and substitution of firepower for manpower creates significant collateral damage." But the faith in firepower sustained the illusion that the mission could be "quicker, cheaper, easier". And that justification fitted with Afghanistan being relegated into a sideshow to Iraq.
According to Dobbins, there was also "a generally negative appreciation of peacekeeping and nation building as components of US policy, a disinclination to learn anything from ... Bosnia and Kosovo".
Lack of accountability began at the top and filtered down. On the day of President Hamid Karzai's inauguration in Afghanistan, in December 2001, Dobbins met General Tommy Franks, the Centcom commander, at the airport. As they drove to the ceremony, Dobbins informed Franks of press reports that US planes had mistakenly bombed a delegation of tribal leaders and killed perhaps several dozen. "It was the first time he heard about it. When he got out of the car, reporters asked him about it. He denied it happened. And he denied it happened for several days. It was classic deny first, investigate later. It turned out to be true. It was a normal reflex."
Democracy was an afterthought for the White House, which believed it had little application to Afghans. At the Bonn conference establishing international legitimacy for the Kabul government, "the word 'democracy' was introduced at the insistence of the Iranian delegation", Dobbins points out.
However, democracy - now the overriding rationale for the Gwot - does not include support for human rights. "In terms of the human rights situation in Afghanistan, Karzai is well meaning and moderate and thoroughly honourable," said Dobbins, "but he's overwhelmed."
Donald Rumsfeld's Pentagon and the White House removed restraints on torture. "These were command failures, not just isolated incidents ... You didn't have the checks and balances. They've had consequences in terms of public image." In April, the US succeeded in abolishing the office of the UN rapporteur on human rights for Afghanistan.
Dobbins believes that the operation in Afghanistan has improved, but that the administration "hasn't readily acknowledged its mistakes, and corrected them only after losing a good deal of ground, irrecoverable ground ... most of the violence is not al-Qaida type, but Pashtun sectarian violence. It's not international terrorism."
Facts on the ground cannot alter Bush's stentorian summons to the Gwot. "This is a campaign conducted primarily, and should be, by law enforcement, diplomatic and intelligence means," Dobbins said. "The militarisation of the concept is a theme that mobilises the American public effectively, but it's not a theme that resonates well in the Middle East or with our allies elsewhere in the world."
"We're taking the fight to the terrorists abroad, so we don't have to face them here at home," Bush declared in June - and repeated endlessly - finally appearing vindicated with the London attacks. London, like Iraq and Afghanistan, is "there", not "here".
� Sidney Blumenthal, a former senior adviser to President Clinton, is author of The Clinton Wars
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 4:57pm
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 5:05pm
I disagree with Blumenthals argument that terror is not connected in
the Afghanistan and Iraq liberations and in the ME generally. It
is clearly a very huge issue that has claimed thousands of lives - even
within a single hour. Such heinous barbarism demands strong
responses. That said the War on Terror/War for Freedom is not
just a military battle. It is even moreso a battle for hearts and
minds. That is why the millions that voted in Afghanistan and
Iraq are not just some principle to be kicked to the curb as Sasha does
by mocking their effect. No, voting and democracy are a slow and
a quick revolution...a reflection of a greater march toward freedom
within the human heart and soul that has its source in time
immemorial..You will see democracy and voting have it's great effect if
you are patient enough...and one of the key indicators will be
decreasing violence throughout the countries in question and throughout
the region.
It is a FACT, that democracies do not attack other democracies. And that is more than just a 'magic wand' to be regarded blithely.
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 23 July 2005 at 3:06pm
I share your sadness, Bruce.
You have nothing to say to us that we have not already heard from the US admin itself.
You hold not a single point with you.
You are here just to score some. Good luck, It�s a good way to go through the type of loneliness the industrialised society breeds.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 7:24am
Just posting this for a general read. I need NOT even mention that Prof. J. K Galbraith is definitely more credible than some jugglesrs who have been trying to sell us slaughter and occupation as some "liberation".
Just read and enjoy!
A cloud over civilisation Corporate power is the driving force behind US foreign policy - and the slaughter in Iraq JK Galbraith Thursday July 15, 2004 http://www.guardian.co.uk/ - The Guardian
At the end of the second world war, I was the director for overall effects of the United States strategic bombing survey - Usbus, as it was known. I led a large professional economic staff in assessment of the industrial and military effects of the bombing of Germany. The strategic bombing of German industry, transportation and cities, was gravely disappointing. Attacks on factories that made such seemingly crucial components as ball bearings, and even attacks on aircraft plants, were sadly useless. With plant and machinery relocation and more determined management, fighter aircraft production actually increased in early 1944 after major bombing. In the cities, the random cruelty and death inflicted from the sky had no appreciable effect on war production or the war.
These findings were vigorously resisted by the Allied armed services - especially, needless to say, the air command, even though they were the work of the most capable scholars and were supported by German industry officials and impeccable German statistics, as well as by the director of German arms production, Albert Speer. All our conclusions were cast aside. The air command's public and academic allies united to arrest my appointment to a Harvard professorship and succeeded in doing so for a year.
Nor is this all. The greatest military misadventure in American history until Iraq was the war in Vietnam. When I was sent there on a fact-finding mission in the early 60s, I had a full view of the military dominance of foreign policy, a dominance that has now extended to the replacement of the presumed civilian authority. In India, where I was ambassador, in Washington, where I had access to President Kennedy, and in Saigon, I developed a strongly negative view of the conflict. Later, I encouraged the anti-war campaign of Eugene McCarthy in 1968. His candidacy was first announced in our house in Cambridge.
At this time the military establishment in Washington was in support of the war. Indeed, it was taken for granted that both the armed services and the weapons industries should accept and endorse hostilities - Dwight Eisenhower's "military-industrial complex".
In 2003, close to half the total US government discretionary expenditure was used for military purposes. A large part was for weapons procurement or development. Nuclear-powered submarines run to billions of dollars, individual planes to tens of millions each.
Such expenditure is not the result of detached analysis. From the relevant industrial firms come proposed designs for new weapons, and to them are awarded production and profit. In an impressive flow of influence and command, the weapons industry accords valued employment, management pay and profit in its political constituency, and indirectly it is a treasured source of political funds. The gratitude and the promise of political help go to Washington and to the defence budget. And to foreign policy or, as in Vietnam and Iraq, to war. That the private sector moves to a dominant public-sector role is apparent.
None will doubt that the modern corporation is a dominant force in the present-day economy. Once in the US there were capitalists. Steel by Carnegie, oil by Rockefeller, tobacco by Duke, railroads variously and often incompetently controlled by the moneyed few. In its market position and political influence, modern corporate management, unlike the capitalist, has public acceptance. A dominant role in the military establishment, in public finance and the environment is assumed. Other public authority is also taken for granted. Adverse social flaws and their effect do, however, require attention.
One, as just observed, is the way the corporate power has shaped the public purpose to its own needs. It ordains that social success is more automobiles, more television sets, a greater volume of all other consumer goods - and more lethal weaponry. Negative social effects - pollution, destruction of the landscape, the unprotected health of the citizenry, the threat of military action and death - do not count as such.
The corporate appropriation of public initiative and authority is unpleasantly visible in its effect on the environment, and dangerous as regards military and foreign policy. Wars are a major threat to civilised existence, and a corporate commitment to weapons procurement and use nurtures this threat. It accords legitimacy, and even heroic virtue, to devastation and death.
Power in the modern great corporation belongs to the management. The board of directors is an amiable entity, meeting with self-approval but fully subordinate to the real power of the managers. The relationship resembles that of an honorary degree recipient to a member of a university faculty.
The myths of investor authority, the ritual meetings of directors and the annual stockholder meeting persist, but no mentally viable observer of the modern corporation can escape the reality. Corporate power lies with management - a bureaucracy in control of its task and its compensation. Rewards can verge on larceny. On frequent recent occasions, it has been referred to as the corporate scandal.
As the corporate interest moves to power in what was the public sector, it serves the corporate interest. It is most clearly evident in the largest such movement, that of nominally private firms into the defence establishment. From this comes a primary influence on the military budget, on foreign policy, military commitment and, ultimately, military action. War. Although this is a normal and expected use of money and its power, the full effect is disguised by almost all conventional expression.
Given its authority in the modern corporation it was natural that management would extend its role to politics and to government. Once there was the public reach of capitalism; now it is that of corporate management. In the US, corporate managers are in close alliance with the president, the vice-president and the secretary of defence. Major corporate figures are also in senior positions elsewhere in the federal government; one came from the bankrupt and thieving Enron to preside over the army.
Defence and weapons development are motivating forces in foreign policy. For some years, there has also been recognised corporate control of the Treasury. And of environmental policy.
We cherish the progress in civilisation since biblical times and long before. But there is a needed and, indeed, accepted qualification. The US and Britain are in the bitter aftermath of a war in Iraq. We are accepting programmed death for the young and random slaughter for men and women of all ages. So it was in the first and second world wars, and is still so in Iraq. Civilised life, as it is called, is a great white tower celebrating human achievements, but at the top there is permanently a large black cloud. Human progress dominated by unimaginable cruelty and death.
Civilisation has made great strides over the centuries in science, healthcare, the arts and most, if not all, economic well-being. But it has also given a privileged position to the development of weapons and the threat and reality of war. Mass slaughter has become the ultimate civilised achievement.
The facts of war are inescapable - death and random cruelty, suspension of civilised values, a disordered aftermath. Thus the human condition and prospect as now supremely evident. The economic and social problems here described can, with thought and action, be addressed. So they have already been. War remains the decisive human failure.
� This is an edited extract from The Economics of Innocent Fraud: Truth for Our Time, by JK Galbraith, published by Allen Lane.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 5:31pm
Whisper wrote:
I share your sadness, Bruce.
You have nothing to say to us that we have not already heard from the US admin itself.
You hold not a single point with you.
You
are here just to score some. Good luck, It�s a good way to go through
the type of loneliness the industrialised society breeds. |
B: What? This is just ludicrous...you have no idea
what you're talking about in this case Sasha...this post is
laughable...all the more because you have really no idea who I
am...Funny; I'm laughing out loud man..btw: None of what you post here
about me is true..
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 11:28am
B: What? This is just ludicrous...you have no idea what you're talking about in this case Sasha...this post is laughable...all the more because you have really no idea who I am...Funny; I'm laughing out loud man..btw: None of what you post here about me is true..
What am I posting about you, Bruce? I am just saying that you hold no points of your own but just keep repeating the official US spins, which we have heard just a bit too often.
That�s all what I have said.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:49pm
Whisper wrote:
B:
What? This is just ludicrous...you have no idea what you're
talking about in this case Sasha...this post is laughable...all the
more because you have really no idea who I am...Funny; I'm laughing out
loud man..btw: None of what you post here about me is true..
What am I posting about you, Bruce? I
am just saying that you hold no points of your own but just keep
repeating the official US spins, which we have heard just a bit too
often.
That�s all what I have said. |
"You
are here just to score some. Good luck, It�s a good way to go through
the type of loneliness the industrialised society breeds."
B: What is this statement, if not about me? So, no Sasha, that is not 'all what' you have said (sic.) You are having a hard time tracking with your own posts man! BTW: what you posted about me is still not true - just as I said!
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 12:00am
Okay, good luck, if just one of my posts about you turns out to be not true. So far you have been shouting your admin's spin in every single post and to belittle some very humane issues.
Good luck and grow out of these dramatic "ah" "oh" and "ooh" staged dialogues. Some posters have started to take you as if some B grade movie dialogue writer.
|
Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 2:10am
Why not free ameriKKKa as well?
They are under the rulings of Nazis again, only this time they do not
know who the nazis are.
New name for 'war on terror'
By Matthew Davis
BBC News, Washington
The Bush administration is abandoning the phrase "war on terror" to
better express the fight against al-Qaeda and other groups as an
ideological struggle as much as a military mission.
What a laugh, i thought this was a Crusade war from the start.
Ariel Sharon's fat skin head son, crime pack from the start.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4719463.stm
I wonder when they will say the same about Bush and his Family getting
him elected.
Sharon's son charged over fraud
Charges have been brought against the son of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel
Sharon over the funding of one of his father's election campaigns in
1999.
Accused of creating shell companies to conceal illegal donations, Omri
Sharon has reportedly admitted overspending but questioned party
funding limits.
The charges relate to Ariel Sharon's successful campaign to lead the Likud
Party and to be its candidate for PM.
The authorities earlier decided not to indict the prime minister himself.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 5:30pm
Whisper wrote:
So far you have been shouting your admin's spin in every single post and to belittle some very humane issues. |
Simply put, those here who've read my posts know that that's not
true. I do agree with them more than I agree with you, as it
turns out..
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 7:50am
Sharon's Infamous Comment -
"We Control America"
From George Paxinos
[email protected]
12-1-3
During an argument between the Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and
Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, Peres said that Isralis' policies of
continued violence might "turn the US against us".
To this Sharon retorted:
"EVERY TIME WE DO SOMETHING, YOU TELL ME AMERICANS WILL DO THIS
AND WILL DO THAT. I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING VERY CLEAR:
DON'T WORRY ABOUT AMERICAN PRESSURE ON ISRAEL;
WE, THE JEWISH PEOPLE, CONTROL AMERICA. AND THE AMERICANS KNOW
IT."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon
October 3, 2001
(IAP News)
It therefore follows that America is fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq
under Zionist control. Mahathir is right. Jews rule America (and most of
the world) by proxy. They trick us into fighting and dying for THEM.
Politicians of the 'free world' are too cowardly oppose Zionism.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 10:30am
Whisper wrote:
Okay,
good luck, if just one of my posts about you turns out to be not true.
So far you have been shouting your admin's spin in every single
post and to belittle some very humane issues.
B: I've never belittled 'humane issues' - show me where. I speak my own mind.
Good luck and
grow out of these dramatic "ah" "oh" and "ooh" staged dialogues. Some
posters have started to take you as if some B grade movie dialogue
writer.
B: OK, you've gone into the pot calling the kettle black - rich...
|
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 August 2005 at 7:36am
Yes, you are right. You haven't belittled any issues. By now, I have begun to understand you.
If you can not understand Desecration of the Qura'n and its effect on your and your puppets image + safety then it's too much for us to expect you to see what occupations, rapes of eight year olds, Palestinian landgrab, massacres and Falluja actually are.
I hold an Hons in Psychology. I know what this condition is known as, but I would keep shut just for the sake of sheer decorum of this Forum.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 19 August 2005 at 2:42pm
"Desecration of the Qura'n and its effect on your and your puppets image"
Proof Sasha, proof...you can't just
say and wish things to be so...no matter how much you might hope for
certain things to help you along in your diatribes against all
Americans...sorry you're so buggered over the facts...
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 August 2005 at 3:57pm
Proof of what desecration means to an Afghan or a Muslim? If you don't know what it means to a Muslim then we know your admin will not be able to hold much ground anywhere in the Muslim world.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 19 August 2005 at 7:28pm
That's not what I'm asking. Prove the desecration
happened...!? That's simple. That charge from Guantanamo
Bay was fabricated by Isikoff and it's been retracted by Newsweek.
What are you so obsessed about this matter for?
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 August 2005 at 4:52am
You fail to see the point. For me, it's not a personal matter.
You can forget about obsessions. That may be luxury of youth or someone who has no better things to do. At 60 plus the priorities of life change, especially, when you join the grandpa club.
I am just trying to show you how the man in the Muslim street views the whole thing.
Newsweek retreated their retreation with a Big Bang of Readers Letters - in June. Please go through those issues. It's a pity I left my copy in the plane.
I am sure someone could ref to this from the Forum. It is now established that the desecration of the Qur'an did take place on many occassions.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 23 August 2005 at 1:42am
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:46am
Your country is accused of the desecration of the Qur'an. The Big Ball is in your court. You prove that it did not happen. And the onus is on you to prove to the Muslims of the world that Newsweek did not RETRACT THE RETRACTION.
Jumping about with smart words alone won't repair your country's image. Why shouldn't I calmly listen to the great Diana Navarro instead of running around collecting the shattered US image. Son, it's your country you dod it while I watch you shooting again and again in your feet.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 23 August 2005 at 6:31pm
"Your country is accused of the desecration of the Qur'an. The Big Ball is in your court. You prove that it did not happen."
I accuse you of being a child pervert - prove to us that this is not
true. See how ridiculous this is? You cannot go around
flying accusations at people and nations and then say "prove it's not
so." You are playing a fools game.
Furthermore, according to research
I've done I see no retraction of the retraction. On May 30th
Newsweek's Editor in Chief issued a full retraction and apology for all
the damage their faulty reporting had caused. I've already linked
to that just above in this thread...
I guess your theory is wrong -
because you ought to have easily been able to point us to the
withdrawal of the retraction...! Why can't you?
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 24 August 2005 at 5:45am
I accuse you of being a child pervert - prove to us that this is not true.
But then you didn't tell me you were only a child.
In fact, I think you still are. Why do you hesitate reading Newsweeks of after 30th May? The retraction was retracted in June 2005.
I am talking about its effect on the Muslim perception - and in your own childish way you are pushing it - into an absolutely different side alley.
What will it take for anyone to drill it into your American head that even when the story was forced by the White House to be retracted - the Muslims perception had not cleared. However hard you jusmp let me assure you, you can not do what all the other Neo Cons could not do to improve the US image. It will only improve when they start behaving like human beings.
Okay, at least, almost like human beings.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 24 August 2005 at 5:22pm
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 24 August 2005 at 8:40pm
Racist drivel Sasha...don't you tire of it yourself? Your arrogance, ignorance and obstinate refusal to treat the actual issue at hand brings out nothing other than that in people. The only difference is that I mention it openly while most others on this board wish to be polite about it.
You are a living proof of what the world today believes about the Americans.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 11:21pm
Whisper wrote:
Racist drivel Sasha...don't you tire of it yourself? Your
arrogance, ignorance and obstinate refusal to treat the actual issue at
hand brings out nothing other than that in people. The only difference
is that I mention it openly while most others on this board wish to be
polite about it.
You are a living proof of what the world today believes about the Americans. |
Here's what you said Sasha:
"when they [referring to Americans] start behaving like human beings."
And you're accusing me of
'arrogance, ignorance and obstinance?' Wow, you'd think I'd made
some sort or racist statement toward Afghanis or toward your
clans...which I haven't and would never do...and yet you level those
charges against me why exactly? I don't even think you know...and
that is why you think that just by saying something about me, it will
be true.
This goes back to my point about
someone saying 'Sasha is a child molester' and then you having to prove
that you're not. No Sasha, in every fair judicial system in the
world it is incumbent upon the plaintiff to prove his charges to the
jury and judge...
Go ahead, Sasha, prove your
charges about Americans sub-humanity - all 300 million of us that
you've labeled 'stupid' 'hungry murderer' 'fools.'
Hmmm...what exactly have you proven?
Your
arrogance, ignorance and obstinate refusal to treat the actual issue at
hand brings out nothing other than that in people.
You've proven nothing and yet you
justify 'that' - what, meaning racism? - in people? Simply
because of how you feel about me and how you'd like to label and
pigeonhole me and all 300 million Americans?
You are a living proof of what the world today believes about the Americans.
It's interesting that you call me
living proof - we're all living proof of various things...you're living
proof that racism is alive and well, especially at certain moments, when it suits certain
purposes...I'm sure you view me as an arrogant American - that is what
you've constantly been saying to me for 2 months straight...but you know, if you'd take the time to talk to me
and to other Americans you'd see we're not simply Bush lackies and we have
incredibly diverse viewpoints, experiences and cultural representations.
But you don't want to know
that...or acknowledge that...to you it's easier and seemingly more
convenient to just lump us together in your pejorative tirades.
That's too bad Sasha. It may
have been interesting to learn more about Afghanistan and Pakistan from
you but instead you shut yourself off so totally from me and from other
Americans who may be interested to learn. That's too bad.
refusal to treat the actual issue at
hand
You've proven nothing about
desecration. You think that by repeating something enough times
you will have proved it. Further, you tried to make the fool of
me by claiming that the total retraction of false reporting by Newsweek
on this topic was clearly itself taken back. That is clearly not
true and you have not proven anything to the contrary. So who's
proven anything about desecration?
If the Qur'an is desecrated such is a serious matter and should be punished and dealt with appropriately.
But I feel the same way about racist drivel..
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 August 2005 at 2:00am
After reading a whole lot of your posts today, I have really started to feel for you. Perhaps, you don't know your own ultimate ignorance. It's your failure to recognise that life's not some "B" grade movie court room scenes, it's a set of actual realities. It's not just some place where we come just to score some points or live with the fear of losing that score.
I won't go into what kind of childhood experiences normally create such an atitude. But it could help to see someone and immediately. In your present state it would be hard for you to see anything in reality terms. I won't press any matter at this point out of sheer sympathy.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 29 August 2005 at 6:02pm
Whisper wrote:
After
reading a whole lot of your posts today, I have really started to feel
for you. Perhaps, you don't know your own ultimate ignorance.
I would say, you know about this
well...while accusing me of it, you seem to forget, conveniently, that
you leveled blame and charges against the US military for which you had
NO PROOF...how does it feel to operate in the condition that you impugn
others with...this is called 'projection' in psychology - you would do
well to acquaint yourself with this idea...you do this...
Unlike you and your theories of 'desecration' - I'll provide you with a link:
the act of perceiving a mental object as spatially and sensibly objective; also : something so perceived b : the attribution of one's own ideas, feelings, or attitudes to other people or to objects; especially : the externalization of blame, guilt, or responsibility as a defense against anxiety
It's
your failure to recognise that life's not some "B" grade movie
court room scenes, it's a set of actual realities.
B:
I'm all into reality. If you look at my posts you'll notice that
I discuss "complex reality" over and over again. I would not
expect you to recall the thrust of my discussions though, as you're too
busy looking for ways to get personal with me...more of the projection
nonsense..
It's not just some place where we come just to score some points or live with the fear of losing that score.
B:
I have no aspiration nor fear of any such thing...but perhaps you do -
you know projection and all...plus you've said this over and over
again..I think we're getting the picture about you Sasha..
I won't go into what kind of childhood experiences normally create such an atitude.
B: I won't get into the specifics about projection - there are texts written on the subject..
But it could help to see someone and immediately. In
your present state it would be hard for you to see anything in reality
terms. I won't press any matter at this point out of sheer sympathy.
B: Forget about counseling man...very little can help you...
|
Aha...you've still not brought forth this irrefutable evidence from
Newsweek Mag to support your flawed theories about 'desecration.'
Sorry, you've got to base your theories on flawed, retracted
articles...that's too bad. And then depend on me to go in and try
to find support for you...that's just too bad you've got to run your
theories like that...without the support that you need for veracity.
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 August 2005 at 7:45am
Slipping from the point has become your trade mark by now. Fear of facing the reality of Muslim Perception that was being discussed?
You well know Newsweek retracted the retraction in June, but you just want to waste our time. Why should I worry for your masters' image as long as the Muslim world knows what happened and how the retraction was forced.
FREE Press?
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 30 August 2005 at 5:20pm
Whisper wrote:
Slipping from the point has become your trade mark by now. Fear of facing the reality of Muslim Perception that was being discussed?
B: I've slipped from nothing. You're the only slipping and shifting on this - as we shall see below. Reality of Muslim Perception
must ultimately be based on the facts and the experience of the facts
of reality. The facts are what I am attempting to discuss with
you and that which you seem to be avoiding like the plague at the
minute...I cannot really help you there sir...you must be set in your
ways on that count.
You well know Newsweek retracted the retraction in June,
B:
Oh do I? This is nowhere to be seen in any of their literature on
the net. I plan to go to find out more about the hard copies one
day soon...so far NOTHING from you...am I just to believe what you're
saying because you read a couple of letters to the editor?
but you just want to waste our time.
B:
Absolutely not. I am willing to eat crow on this. I'm
simply asking you for proof and you are very reticent to give it.
I'm not sure why.
Why should I worry for your masters' image
B: This is offensive yet laughable in its irony...who is your master, sir?
as long as the Muslim world knows what happened and how the retraction was forced...
B:
Sasha, you want us to believe that you are telling the facts and yet
without proof. Now you're shifting to 'the Muslim world knows
what happened' - and so your conspiracy theory is complete...Sasha, do
you make a habit of believing, promoting, even making things up and
promoting them - to suit your ends? Or are you at all shaped by
the mature thought that charges, assertions and accusations need
evidence that demands a verdict?
|
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 31 August 2005 at 11:13am
B: Sasha, you want us to believe that you are telling the facts and yet without proof.
I thought you knew the world better than all of us put together here and yet you want proof of the fact that the Muslim world was and is still affected by this incidence?
Why not table a New Topic: "Are the Muslims Really Affected by Koran Desecration" and just see.
Reality of Muslim Perception must ultimately be based on the facts.
Mass Human Perception is not produced under any such lab conditions of your prescription. It grows wild out there in the streets. People perceive what they perceive through their own cultural prisms. I agree that the Anglo-American collusion in Muslim bashing has made it easier for the Muslims to accept that from the US.
B: Oh do I? This is nowhere to be seen in any of their literature on the net. I plan to go to find out more about the hard copies one day soon...so far NOTHING from you...am I just to believe what you're saying because you read a couple of letters to the editor?
I won�t base anything on just letters to the editors. I would have found that issue but I have been too busy + Spain is not the place to go out and find for some back issues of an English magazine. There was a set of articles in a mid or late June issue.
If I hadn�t read it, I would not have mentioned it. In that case I would have found the pleasure of bashing you with the effect it has had on the Muslims worldwide.
B: This is offensive yet laughable in its irony...who is your master, sir?
My Master is the one who lends breath to your masters.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 01 September 2005 at 11:28am
Whisper wrote:
B: Sasha, you want us to believe that you are telling the facts and yet without proof.
I
thought you knew the world better than all of us put together here and
yet you want proof of the fact that the Muslim world was and is still
affected by this incidence?
B:
That is correct sir. You have leveled a charge and now to the
evidence. What? No evidence required? That's called a
kangeroo court. It is your choice. Do you wish
to run the world by kangeroo courts? Nice - and you complain
about the US?
Why not table a New Topic: "Are the Muslims Really Affected by Koran Desecration" and just see.
B:
Your presupposition is that there is Qur'an desecration. You
should be ashamed, especially as a non-Mulsim, for trying to rile up,
for trying to promote a conflict, in an already tense world, about
something that is based on nothing other than your juvenile and
erroneous presuppositions. It is people like yourself, and the
irresponsible press, which has had to retract their egregious errors
that cost lives, that contribute to the lack of understanding between
peoples.
And
yet without proof. Still! Where is your proof? You
keep saying that the Muslim world is affected by perceptions -
absolutely - and who is providing these perceptions - these
erroneous pictures? The US troops are not about to desecrate the
Qur'an. For you to suggest these things without proof and then
appeal to people's perceptions as your evidence is the height of
arrogance.
Again
- I can call you and your ilk child molestors for the next 365 days in
a row, drum up phony media, point to how poeple react to the alleged
child molestors - calling you a hypocrite and a criminal - and then,
when asked my you or your ilk to provide proof - I could appeal to
people's reactions and feelings as my evidence that means that
OBVIOUSLY you and your ilk are child molestors - because of how all
these others have reacted to that notion.
Oops Sasha - you and your ilk been convicted of child molestation by the kangeroo court.
Such is the state of your case of Qur'an desecration by US troops...
And yet without proof.
=================
Reality of Muslim Perception must ultimately be based on the facts.
Mass Human Perception is not produced under any such lab conditions of your prescription.
B:
So attention to the facts of a matter are 'lab conditions?' Are
you aware of what the press is supposed to be about? It's supposed to
be about bringing facts to bear to people - access to the news, to the
facts of the world. How is that some 'lab conditions?'
Bizarre that you're arguing against dealing with the facts...simply
bizarre!
It grows wild out there in the streets. People perceive what they perceive through their own cultural prisms.
B:
I'm arguing against vigilante justice and kangeroo courts and you're
arguing in favor of them? Just wanted to verify that - or is that
too laboratory for you?
====================
B:
Oh do I? This is nowhere to be seen in any of their literature on
the net. I plan to go to find out more about the hard copies one
day soon...so far NOTHING from you...am I just to believe what you're
saying because you read a couple of letters to the editor?
I
won�t base anything on just letters to the editors. I would have found
that issue but I have been too busy + Spain is not the place to go out
and find for some back issues of an English magazine. There was a set
of articles in a mid or late June issue.
B:
OK, we'll have to see about that...I'll be more than willing to eat
some crow, but you must be willing to provide proof when you level such
a serious charge - right now all we've got are an alleged series of
articles, from the same magazine that retracted its initial
reporting. Doesn't strike me as strong evidence as yet. US
soldiers/others should not be desectrating the Qur'an and so far there
is NO proof that they have in any appreciable way. This flies in
the face of what you've been claiming. We'll see - I can easily
do more research even though you're the one leveling charges and should
have provided us with the proof of your charges...to do so has been
irresponsible imho and I would recommend that when you level charges in
future you be prepared to back them up rather then to make presumptions
and pre-suppositions that conveniently fit your preconceived ill
notions about the USA.
If
I hadn�t read it, I would not have mentioned it. In that case I
would have found the pleasure of bashing you with the effect it has had
on the Muslims worldwide.
B: This indeed seems to be a game to you sometimes. That's really too bad Sasha - sometimes I wonder if you're 60 or 16...
=================
B: This is offensive yet laughable in its irony...who is your master, sir?
My Master is the one who lends breath to your masters.
B: Ah, the old my master is greater than your master ploy......too bad you don't have evidence of that, either.
|
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 01 September 2005 at 3:42pm
have you had such verbal diaorhea always or just since the US image stocks hit their bottom?
Your shouting and wailing all hours or what I say or don't say makes no difference at all to PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS - SPECIALLY THOSE PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS THE US MEDIA IS UNABLE TO CONTROL. Do you get that or still wanting to bark up all the other trees?
Why not take the Muslim perception to some court of your choice?
Okay, I say - "the US soldiers did desecrate the Koran". Take me to court anywhere in the world. Or, do whatever you or your idiotic President may. But take your ill-educated whinging somewhere else.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 01 September 2005 at 7:03pm
Whisper wrote:
have you had such verbal diaorhea always or just since the US image stocks hit their bottom?
More Sasha name calling and pejoratives...Blah, blah, bladdy blah..
Your shouting
and wailing all hours or what I say or don't say makes no difference at
all to PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS - SPECIALLY THOSE PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS THE US
MEDIA IS UNABLE TO CONTROL. Do you get that or still wanting to bark up
all the other trees?
As I've said: Reality of Muslim Perception
must ultimately be based on the facts. This is regardless of what
you'd like or not. Facts and reality matter to perceptions.
Whether US soldiers did or did NOT desecrate the Qur'an really DOES
matter. Again, regardless of what you say or what specious
charges you level or assess.
Why not take the Muslim perception to some court of your choice?
B:
Oh, now you're suggesting we take it to a kangaroo court or one where
facts and evidence matters - yeah, if we're going to that kind of court
then fine. Don't forget, we're talking about the specific case of
whether US soldiers desecrated the Qur'an at Gitmo and you're saying
they did based on faulty and retracted reporting/evidence. What
else is in your case - an article in a June '05 issue of Newsweek that
you've yet to produce. Hmmm...Judge, can you make a ruling?
Now the issue of Muslim perceptions of the US in general is more
complicated - but still the principle is still true - in the end, it
must be based (even if loosely and colored on other matters) on the
facts. That is a good thing for all involved - i.e. my perception
of Muslims must also be based on the facts...even if loosely, et al.
Okay, I say -
"the US soldiers did desecrate the Koran". Take me to court anywhere in
the world. Or, do whatever you or your idiotic President may. But take
your ill-educated whinging somewhere else.
I'm
talking about principles and you're talking about silly court cases -
what you're talking about are frivolous lawsuits...besides it's
incumbent upon the one making the charges to support his case.
That would be you, our friend - remember?
|
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 02 September 2005 at 1:12am
Reality of Muslim Perception must ultimately be based on the facts.
You have thus far proved just two extremely sad facts with all that energy.
One; you have nothing better to do with your life than to keep flooding this site with some worn out dialogues and cheap "B grade movie" court scenes.
Two; it takes a man with "emotional clarity" to know that human perceptions are not regulated by any rules and regulations. IF Muslim Perception could be regulated like that the Washington Gang would have found, discovered or invented some way to control it - long before the desire hit you.
To be very honest, I have really started to enjoy your dance on such hot coals
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 06 September 2005 at 4:56pm
Whisper wrote:
Reality of Muslim Perception must ultimately be based on the facts.
You have thus far proved just two extremely sad facts with all that energy.
One;
you have nothing better to do with your life than to keep flooding this
site with some worn out dialogues and cheap "B grade movie" court
scenes.
B:
Two; it takes a man with "emotional clarity" to know that human perceptions are not regulated by any rules and regulation. IF
Muslim Perception could be regulated like that the Washington Gang
would have found, discovered or invented some way to control it - long
before the desire hit you.
B:
I'm not talking at all about rules and laws - other than immutable
natural laws...truth has its own weight Sasha. The facts are not
made up in Washington or anywhere else and if they pretend to, they
will be found out whether in Washington or in Spain behind a computer..
|
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 9:22am
No comment. Never found such absolute rubbish wrapped in so many words.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 4:07pm
Whisper wrote:
No comment. Never found such absolute rubbish wrapped in so many words. |
Too bad you feel the need to eviscerate...but one man's rubbish is another man's treasure..no matter what you say.
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 12:24am
Thank goodness, by now the whole world has seen all the American Treasure chests of brutal force.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 4:34pm
Whisper wrote:
Thank goodness, by now the whole world has seen all the American Treasure chests of brutal force. |
I've been talking about truth and facts coming to bear on perceptions
(even if eventually or later than we'd like - but it always happens
because truth has it's own gravitas). This in regard to minor
incidents - which you claim I'm misunderstanding the enormity of a
soldier dropping someone's duffle bag that just happens to have a
Qur'an inside it - even if he didn't know that! (probably because YOUR
perception is that Americans, all 300 million of us are, in your very
own grandiose way, are 'stupid' 'fools').
You're now talking about 'brutal force.' Stick to the topic man!
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 08 September 2005 at 10:03pm
This in regard to minor incidents
Only an American would take the desecration of the Qura'n as a minor incident. You are right it's almost like getting a car written off in some accident!!
I have understood your level and I am not going to waste any more time lsitening to your theatricals.
Thanks. My last post to you.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 12 September 2005 at 12:13am
Whisper wrote:
This in regard to minor incidents
Only an American would take the desecration of the Qura'n as a minor incident.
B:
Only a non-Muslim Communist would write this in big lettering on a
Muslim board to try to stir up strife. Look some people on this
board belittle what happened on 9/11 visi vi Iraq and even
Afghanistan. What about that DESECRATION? How come I never
hear you going on and on and going apoplectic about that? Are you
just so plainly bigoted and agenda driven...oh, you're transparent...
I have understood your level
Thanks. My last post to you.
B: That's funny - you've written that now about 3 times...hahahaha...
|
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
|
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 3:18am
Love your dialogues and that coal Dance!
I don't have to stir up any strife. The Neo Cons like you are doing much better a job by belittling Muslim perceptions in their own idiotic manners.
|
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 2:02pm
Whisper wrote:
Love your dialogues and that coal Dance!
I don't
have to stir up any strife. The Neo Cons like you are doing much
better a job by belittling Muslim perceptions in their own idiotic
manners. |
No idiocy on my part - I'm no 'neo con' either - but you've never
shrunk back from generalizations and even bigotry, so why start now,
huh Sasha?
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 2:05pm
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 10:37pm
We would have believed your "Ali" only if he had a more realistic name and lived somewhere other than just some internet site. Now you understand why people don't take Americans seriously - without their guns.
I'm no 'neo con' either
Okay, you are just a Neo Con groupie. When will they let you in on the main band? You really think we are so gullible that we can't see when someone is just pasting the worn out Neo Con lies on the site? Iraqi Freedom? With 14 huge bases stuck all around them?
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 September 2005 at 2:20am
Only pathological liars, ConMen, Neo Cons and habitual war criminals will try and force upon us that Eyerak is Free.
R E A D and enjoy the lies being posted on this site by supporters of Ultra Right Wing Death Cultists.
Iraqi law minister blasts US detentions
Wednesday 14 September 2005
Iraq's justice minister has condemned the US military for detaining thousands of Iraqis for long periods without charge and wants to change a UN resolution that gives foreign troops immunity from Iraqi law.
Speaking to Reuters, Justice Minister Abdul Hussein Shandal also criticised US detentions of Iraqi journalists and said the media, contrary to US policy in Iraq, must have special legal protection to report on all sides in the conflict.
"No citizen should be arrested without a court order," he said this week, complaining that US suggestions that his ministry had an equal say on detentions were misleading.
"There is abuse [of human rights] due to detentions, which are overseen by the Multinational Force (MNF) and are not in the control of the Justice Ministry," said Shandal, a Shia judge respected for standing up to Saddam Hussein on the rule of law.
UN resolution
Killings and unjustified arrests of Iraqi civilians by US troops risked going unpunished, he said, because of UN Security Council resolution 1546, which granted US-led forces sweeping powers following their overthrow of Saddam in 2003.
"The resolution ... gives immunity to the MNF and means taking no action against the MNF no matter what happens or whatever they do against the people of Iraq," Shandal said.
"We're hoping to make more efforts with the Security Council and the whole United Nations to end this resolution or amend it so that anyone who violates Iraqi law or assaults any citizen is held accountable," he said.
"This is a matter of sovereignty."
He said he was pressing US forces to speed up releases for some of the 10,000 Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison and elsewhere, often for many months without charge, on suspicion of aiding Sunni Arab fighters.
US forces pressed
Last month, 1000 men were freed from Abu Ghraib as Iraq's Shia-led government and Washington tried to appease the once dominant Sunni minority.
The United Nations said last week faster releases could promote Sunni acceptance of the new political system.
Iraqi officials voice frustration with US and British vetoes on some requests for release, noting that Iraqis have been held for two years without charge to "gather intelligence".
Speaking of the Combined Review and Release Board (CRRB) which guarantees detainees a hearing every six months, Shandal said: "The representatives of the MNF in the committee have the rights and all the authority under the UN resolution." Journalists detained
Shandal said he was concerned about the US military's refusal to accord special consideration to the media and at the number of journalists detained for many months by US troops. Among these is Reuters cameraman Ali Omar Ibrahim al-Mashhadani, who was ordered detained by the CRRB last month as a "threat to the people of Iraq". The military will not say what suspicions it has against him.
Asked to clarify the CRRB definition of "threat", Shandal said: "It's a catch-all term to portray this person as a threat to the nation and allow the other side to keep him in custody."
Asked if the government approved of such measures, which US generals say they implement with Iraqi official support, he said: "I am a man of law and a judge and I respect human rights... No citizen should be arrested without a court order."
Special protection
Although the nature of their work brings journalists under suspicion from both sides, the US command in Iraq refuses to consider special treatment for accredited reporters and says it will detain them under the same conditions as any other suspect.
Shandal, however, said journalists needed special protection and defended independent reporting from all sides, including from fighter-held areas.
He insisted on journalists' right to film and interview Iraq's fighters without fear of arrest or worse.
"In this time of conflict ... between terrorists and the army or Multinational Forces, the journalist comes to the fore. "Full freedom should be given to journalists to take pictures and film in the field," he said. "Without images what would we know of history? We would know nothing."
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 19 September 2005 at 7:55am
"Iraq's justice minister has condemned the US military for detaining thousands of Iraqis for long periods without charge"
But Sasha, you don't recognize the government in Iraq - do you?? And the government in Iraq is criticizing the US - doesn't that mean they are free? It means EXACTLY THAT.
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 September 2005 at 11:35am
complaining that US suggestions that his ministry had an equal say on detentions were misleading.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 September 2005 at 1:16am
Yes, and the fact that he can complain so publicly, means that Iraq is FREE...what part of this don't you get?
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 September 2005 at 4:20pm
US suggestions that his ministry had an equal say on detentions were misleading.
Any human being would know what this sentence means. Only Neo Con scums sigh and ask what it really means.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 September 2005 at 4:24pm
Whisper wrote:
US suggestions that his ministry had an equal say on detentions were misleading.
Any human being would know what this sentence means. Only Neo Con scums sigh and ask what it really means. |
Maybe if you double the font yet again those neo con jerks will understand your enlightenment...
BTW: No sighing and wondering - this guy is free unlike any freedom EVER under Saddam...dems the facts.
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 21 September 2005 at 2:50pm
You have lost your credibility out of your own stupid assertions about the legality of occupations. Some of your remarks just reek of very sick hatred of humans at large. You smell nothing more than an American most of the time.
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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 21 September 2005 at 5:04pm
Whisper wrote:
You have lost your credibility.. |
Sasha, I'm glad that you're finally using a mirror...that's good..to
question my credibility when you come on this board and praise atheists
is quite rich..and to accuse me of hatred when you spew racism is also
quite rich...have at it man...you seem to be...no
matter...anything...you have proven by your own words and approaches
just who and what you really are..for all who care to see and perceive
it..
------------- Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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