The contradictions of the Bible
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Topic: The contradictions of the Bible
Posted By: Hichem
Subject: The contradictions of the Bible
Date Posted: 30 April 2009 at 3:02pm
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The contradictions of the Bible Zeinb Abd Al-Azeiz (PHD) trsnalsted by : Magdy Abd Alshafy Christians often turn angry and displeased when some comment on the contradictions in the Bibles- these contradictions that amount to fearful numbers . They even indict whoever claim that that they encroache upon the sanctity of the holy revealed texts . To refute this fact , they say : , these are not paradoxes but rather facts that integrate one another, they claim that just to cover up these scientific contradictions In fact , these claimed sanctity was impeached by Vatican three times: the first was in Trant synod in 1546 that issued a decree that " God is the author of the Holy Book" , a sentence that is recorded in the document of this synod, and that curse will haunt whoever asks about the credence of anything . ( Synods , volume 111, 1994) The second time midwifed the advancement of science , historical studies and linguistics , this time Vatican backtracked on its first decree " God is the author " to say in Vatican synod , 1869 " God inspired the apostles through the holy ghost ( to write the Bible ) The third time was in the Vatican synod , The final decisive word issued from Vatican concerning this point was " These books , though containing what is incomplete and what is false, testify to the fact that these were divine moral lessons" In "The World of the Holy Book magazine , number "137" , September to October , an article entitled " Who wrote the Holy Book " comments on the same point , this aticle came in the first place , we read an article by professor J.Moinght , faculties of Jaweit , paris , in which he refers to two difficulties apropos to the Holy Book , he says " the Holy Book is not a book as the term book really means , rather it is a complete library , it is a group of books and a group of literary kinds from different languages whose authorship can be traced back to tens of centuries and that all its books were collected gradually. Second , each of these books wasn't authored at one go by the same author bur rather each book was authored or rather collected from scattered pieces of heritage and dispersed writings from different sources after being rewritten and reformulated and
substituting parts in the place of others . This citation shows how this information has become common that they are widely handled on newspapers and magazines. If we bear in mind the final resolutions of Jesus Seminar which states that "82% of the words that are ascribed toJesus weren't his and that 86% of the deeds that were ascribed to him were not his either , we will surely conceive how haplessly exorbitant the situation is and how deep the chasm between the facts and the scientists is , the multitude among them are theologians , moreover , so grave is their feverish insistence to proselyte the world into Christianity at any cost ,notwithstanding mottos such as they respect the adherents of other religions that they chant resoundingly and vociferously . My aim is not to hurt the feelings nor degenerate any one as no one here to be held accountable for what these synods had inserted or changed over the span of history but my aim is to put forth the question to Moslems who remain a target to persistent campaigns supported by political pressure for converting them into Christianity . Can those who persistently insist on proselyting the world into Christianity realize how grave and heinous that act is when they try to uproot the others' religion ? Can those who are equipped with all potentialities desist promulgating such texts and doctrines of which its men confessed that they comprise what is incomplete and what is false?!!! It is ironical that they tried to circumvent the glaring contradictions , though they already referred to , by claiming that they are expressions of different visions or expressions or they integrate one another�.so a phrase like " the bible according to �" is coined though this phrase implies a large area of implicit skepticism. A cursory look at these contradiction that the British Encyclopedia estimated to be 150.000 and now doubled by latest studies will enable the reader , irrespective of his religion , to touch the reality and if they could be trusted as divine texts . Changing the words of the bible is going on to the extent that you find that the bible in English for example still keeps some words while in Arabic we find that the translation of some words have been changed for nothing but to match the newly discovered facts , for example the word circle in the following verse "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth"has been changed to be " the globe " while we can find the translation of the circle is still there in old version of the same Bible � it was a crime , according to the church standpoint , for which Galileo stood before the court and it is clear that this change was inserted after his words were scientifically proved to be true . for contradictions and scientific and historicla errors , http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=307 - http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=307
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Replies:
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 02 May 2009 at 3:17am
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Hello,
I am not "angry" or "displeased", but I cannot understand the relation between "General Islamic Matter" and "contradictions of the Bible"!!!
Anyhow, I will explain you my point of view: first of all, the Bible is not being updated everyday, and it's an old book. Sure the people are not the same, or the way of thinking.
For me, the Bible is a place of refuge, full of lessons to learn, and words of peace.
When I read it, I am not reading word by word, and trying to apply the lessons strictly. I just look for advise and try to apply it in the best way I can, because I understand that the Book is philosophy, more than a book on how to live everyday.
For instance, in Valencia (Spain), there was an Imam who wrote a manual for muslims where he was telling how the husband should beat to his wife. Do you think that this idea comes from the Qu'ran? As I was told, what the Qu'ran said was that the husband should show to his wife that he is strong, but not through the violence, just to make her feel protected.
I has read some of the "contradictios" that the author is talking about, and I just can say that the importance of it is nothing.
Example:
What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
Before the cock crow - Matthew 26:34 Before the cock crow twice - Mark 14:30 It was before the cock crow , as Matthew said. But in a book retouched during more than 2000 years by people, what can you do?
I don't know if the mistake comes directly from Mark or from someone of the rewriters, but sure it's a mistake, not a contradiction.
Regards ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: Hichem
Date Posted: 02 May 2009 at 3:38pm
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Peace be upon those who follow true guidance,� Hello First, let me draw your attention to that the only party entitled to comment on the location of the topic is the administration, so� not you . When I read your comment I thought you meant one of Shakespeare's book�s, or the like � !! But it soon had realized when I came back to my previous Timely initiative to mind one question, for as long as I had hoped to answer me frankly, one of the Christians .... And I am about to suggest to you: Do you really read the Bible, a careful reading ? I want you to tell me how to draw inspiration or ideas from the Bible when they read a text like this: //)) 12 The next day came out of the house for urgent Nia 13 considered a fig tree from afar by the paper and came to perhaps find something. When he came to not only find something for the paper that it was not the time of figs. 14 Jesus said to them: �You do not eat a productive one after forever�. The disciples hear.) Mark 11: 12-14//)) - What inspired the idea of the text ??? Is God so weak ??!! Is God who created everything, did not know when the yield figs ??!! Are any of the supposedly sane people to accept this statement ??!! I would advise you, and I advise every Christian-loving Christian and Jesus son of Maryam, to read the Bible Then ask , Is this really the Word of God ??!! Read this verse , Can you find the fault, or including them with the Gospel?? Almighty God said in his book Quran : (( O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom, )) (34) Al-Tawba . In the end, we do not discard the Bible, or Christianity ... It is part of our right , We stand for Jesus and his mother Maryam , peace be upon them, We reject the Gospel, which is now in your hands because it distorted and full of falsehoods, That have developed over the course of history. Finally, accept me Greetings to you and to all members of the Forum |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 02 May 2009 at 8:08pm
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I don't know if the mistake comes directly from Mark or from someone of
the rewriters, but sure it's a mistake, not a contradiction. If there is at least one mistake, can you vouch that there will not be a second, a third, a fourth or whatever numbers? God is perfection. God's book should also be one. No error, no mistakes. Only human make mistakes. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 03 May 2009 at 12:19am
Yes, and only human are re-writing the Holly books. Maybe there are more mistakes, and that should be studied by the experts in Vatican. But, as I said in other place, the Bible is not to apply in your life daily, it's not an agenda about how to live. It's just a book to learn, to receive lessons, to look for advices, to take rest when you are tired, or to seek for consolation when you feel down. You have to read and understand the Holly Books, not only to memorize. Regards ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Nur_Ilahi wrote:Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 03 May 2009 at 1:22am
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Well, If this be topic at this place in the forum, then continuing in the same direction, I look at the issue through another dimension. For example, if I go to a bookstore to find a trust worthy book to take benefit of its useful contents, I would invest in the one whose authoriship is doubtlessly well reputed. Knowing that the market is full of all kinds of people who may use such reputible names for their low quality products, I have to be extra careful in my selection for originality of the book.
It is now of a common knowledge among scholars that the names of the four books of new testament (NT Bible), bear the names after the 4 disciples of Jesus as a convenience only. The actual authorship of these books was long after these disciples were already dead.
For reference see The Catholic University of Australia as an example. More info / references is as per requirement basis.
Nevertheless, the present gospels do contain some of very invaluable quote of Jesus, and I have a great respect as well as inspiration from them. Cheers!!
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 June 2009 at 6:38pm
I have to disagree with you on that. Holy Book is the one that people are using to how they understand who God is, what God teaches and expects of us, what is our purpose and what will be herefter, how to achieve salvation.
Those are very very important questions and issues. We find a discrepency in our credit card statement we pickup the phone. Are we not sure what's at stake that we take our Holy book less serious? or we jsut don't believe rahter pretend we do?
It is a guide that will determine your course, your journey, your future. Sure it also gives us strength in our difficulties, but its not like pot of a drink to forget you your pains when you are tired or feeling down.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 06 June 2009 at 1:14am
Yes, it's important what you say, but on the other hand, can you take a two thousand years book as your daily guide? Sure in some items, you should follow your Holly Book, but in some others, it's unfortunately outdated.
It's important to know your God through the Holly Book, in my case the Bible, which explains everything about the Christianity, but at the same time, we have to understand it and to relate it with the XXI Century, where we live.
For instance, you have the divorce, which is forbiden (in general) in both religions, Islam and Christianity, but unfortunately, the real life now is full of situations that are finishing in divorce. Really, it's hard to take that decision, but some situations are not giving other chance.
Regards,
Patricia
------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 June 2009 at 8:49am
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Evil hearts try to see the Holy Bible filled with contradictions- an open heart sees that these supposed contradictions add fuller menaing or understanding tlo the message GOD is trying to give us. Actually a very poor arguement for Muslims to be spouting that the Holy Bible has contradictions in it.
The Quran confirms the Gospel and Law which were in the Holy Bible that was in existance during Mohammad's time. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 10 June 2009 at 10:57am
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Evil hearts try to see the Holy Bible filled with contradictions- an open heart sees that these supposed contradictions add fuller menaing or understanding tlo the message GOD is trying to give us. Actually a very poor arguement for Muslims to be spouting that the Holy Bible has contradictions in it.
Taken from http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/15_clear_chronological_contradictions_in_the_bible.htm - 15 Clear Chronological Contradictions: 1: In Matthew 4:5-8 the Devil took Jesus to the pinnacle and then to the mountain, while in Luke 4:5-9 he took him to the mountain and then the pinnacle. 2: In Matt. 21:12-19 Jesus cleansed the temple and later cursed the fig tree, while in Mark 11:13-15 he cursed the fig tree and later cleansed the temple. 3: In Matt. 8:28-32 Jesus caused devils to enter swine and later called Levi (Matt. 9:9), while in Luke 5:27-28 Jesus called Levi and later caused devils to enter swine (Luke 8:26-33). 4: In Mark 1:12-13 Jesus was tempted in the wilderness and later John was arrested (Mark 6:17-18), while in Luke 3:19-20 John was arrested and later Jesus was tempted in the wilderness (Luke 4:1-13). 5: In Mark 2:13-17 Matthew was called by Jesus and later the tempest was calmed (Mark 4:35-40), while in Matt. 8:18, 23-27 the tempest was calmed and later Matthew was called (Matt. 9:9-17). 6: In Matt. 8:1-4 Jesus cleansed the leper and later healed Peter's mother-in-law (Matt. 8:14-15), while in Mark 1:29-31 Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and later cleansed the leper (Mark 1:40-44). 7: In Matt. 8:28-32 Jesus caused devils to enter swine and later appointed the 12 apostles (Matt. 10:1-4), while in Mark 3:13-19 Jesus appointed the 12 apostles and later caused the devils to enter the swine (Mark 5:1-13). 8: In Luke 3:19-20 John the Baptist was arrested and later Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law (Luke 4:38-39), while in Mark 1:29-31 Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and later John was arrested (Mark 6:17-18). 9: In Luke 3:19-20 John was arrested and later the storm was calmed (Luke 8:22-25), while in Mark 4:35-40 the storm was calmed and later John the Baptist was arrested (Mark 6:17-18). 10: In Luke 5:27-32 Levi (Matthew) was called and later the storm was calmed (Luke 8:22-25), while in Matt. 8:18-27 the storm was calmed and later Levi was called (Matt. 9:9-17). 11: In Matt. 8:14-15 Jesus cured Simon's mother-in-law and later John the Baptist was arrested (Matt. 14:3-5), while in Luke 3:19-20 John was arrested and later Jesus cured Simon's mother-in-law (Luke 4:38-39). 12: In Matthew 21:1-11 Jesus entered Jerusalem and later purified the
Temple (Matthew 21:12-16), while in John 2:13-25 and 3:1-12 he purified the Temple and
later entered Jerusalem (John 12:12-16). The Quran confirms the Gospel and Law which were in the Holy Bible that was in existance during Mohammad's time. Visit: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/does_islam_endorse_the_bible__ - |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 23 June 2009 at 4:20pm
Pati,
I agree with you about things getting outdated. But that's the case with what we the humans write and know. Our knowledge is limited and improves with time thus gets out dated through trial and error. Its the human made teaching and rules that has been proved to get out dated. We knew free sex means adultry, but some took that route and learned its results in the form of aids and social ills.
Not long ago it was thought in this country (USA) that woman should not have the right to vote. Or that blacks should not have the same rights as whites. Or legal age to marry was 13 or 16 in some states at one time but now has become illegal. These are just some of the examples to show that you are right, if a human is behind some rules and regulations, you bet they will be outdated at a point.
What we are talking about is that God who is All Knowing is the one who is the author of those rules and regulations given in the Quran, and were given before through other prophets. God given rules and guidance is not bound to time. For example: We always will have the same One and only God, our Creator. To worship and serve Him will always be the same. And by the way, its not one human you, me or Pheroah that will live the entire length of humanity's life on this earth. Each one of us only live between the day we are born till the day we die. How long is that? Say around a hundred years to the most, and that's it. God's guidance is for all times and for all the people.
Another example is that stealing or adultry was bad and forbidden, and in God's sight and teachings for us it will be so without the limit of time.
Remember, our maker has given us this body in a trust, has provided us guidance to how to take proper care of it so when He takes if back, through our intentions and actions we could prove that we did our best effort to care for it as He wanted us to and fulfilled that trust thus winning our reward as an eternal life in a desireable place we all wish to be.
He has provided us the capabilities, intelligence, and the guidance to achieve what is expected of us, and only after that we will be held responsible for what we choose to do.
Its interesting you brought up the subject of divorce. I wanted to correct you on that.
Divorce in Christianity is forbidden except in case of immorality. In Islam it is not forbidden, only it must be taken seriously and is permitted only as a last resort after trying three times to save it.
In fact this is a very good point where my Chrisitian friends have nothing to say when I ask them the same question. What if the guy abuse his wife all along? or what if he is impotent? while she desires a family with children. What right she has in that case to pursue her dream?
Islam is a complete way of life inwhich God has guided us and shown us all important issues and provided their solutions like the one above, where a Muslim woman can seek and get divorced if she is being abused and so on.
I would strongly recommend you to get a copy of the Quran and read and study it start to finish, before you think or say anything about it. Please let me know if you are unable to get one, I will send you one.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 24 June 2009 at 11:38am
Hi Hasan,
I cannot understand why your Christian friends didn't answer you this question, because it's very easy. The abused wife has all the rights to ask for the divorce, as well as the wife who's husband is impotent, as well as the wife who is not happy with her husband. The only problem is that to get the religious divorce, the procedure goes too slowly, because they want the marriage to think about it seriously, and it's expensive also, because it can only be signed by Vatican and some Religious Courts (for instance, in Spain there is only one for the whole country).
Another reason to finish the marriage is the misunderstanding between the couple, as well as the end of the love, which are given in most of the divorce requests. I hope this can explain your question. I don't know if in Islam those reasons are given also to ask for divorce or not...
Thanks for offering me a Qu'ran, I already have mine
 (and God/Allah thanks, in Spanish!). I didn't start reading it yet, because in the Mosque (where I'm going weekly to learn arabic), they are giving us classes about Islam, and I prefer to read the Qu'ran at the same time in order to understand it in better way.I agree with most of what you said, but I want to remark something: we are human, and unfortunately, not perfect. What makes the difference between animals and people is the common sense (or at least, it's supposed that there is a difference between), and the quality of being directed by our head and heart instead of our first feelings or primary needs.
If I read the Bible, I understand what is the meaning of all the words, and what is the essence of God's Commandements... but also I know that my feelings and needs are sometimes differents. Sure it doesn't mean that I am an animal, it's just that in this new world, it's not possible to follow the Bible word by word, or it's very difficult to be happy following strictly the Bible.
At the same time, we are growing individual and colectivelly, and as well as we grow as people, we grow as society too... But what we do is just to be more opened and to expressing publicly what in old times they were doing in private. Is it good or bad? Everyone should be owner of his/her decisions and thinking. For me, we overstepped the limits, and we are lost in some ways, but at the same time, I believe that this will be stabilized soon (maybe in the next generation, maybe in the one after the next...).
My personal opinion is that in the Judgement Day (what I think you have in Islam too), I will explain every wrong step gave in my life, and hopefully my good acts will be more than my bads (God help me). But this is not an excuse to do whatever we want, sure... I repeat: we are not animals, or we should not be.
Patricia ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 June 2009 at 6:44pm
Hi Patricia,
what I meant was that the Bible as a guide does not offer divorce as an option for a wife in possible cases we talked about. Only time it allow divorce is in case of adultry. It is only secular laws that allowed her that right in the West.
I agree with you that we are not perfect, if we were we would not be told that we will be judged. And the reason we will be held accountable for our thoughts and actions is only after we are given capabilites of distinguishing between right and wrong. And with guidance and a chance provided by our Creator something no other creature is given. Thus according to the Quran, we were created above rest of the Creation.
My understanding is that God wants us to align ourselves to His teachings, not that we align his teachings to our style. If the latter was the case, we would be our own guides and no need for God. Also we wouldn't know where'd be the limits and what'd be the end!
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 01 July 2009 at 5:05pm
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 1:45pm
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A contradiction is saying that something did not happen, not that it happened at a different time.
Why would there be 4 Gospels in the Holy Bible that are all slightly different?
I mean really wouldn't you burn the ones that did not match up exactly- even if it was GOD's word?
Could the people claiming these Gospels as GOD's Word not see that there were sight differences?
http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4222459/k.BA40/Why_do_the_Gospel_accounts_contradict_each_other.htm - http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4222459/k.BA40/Why_do_the_Gospel_accounts_contradict_each_other.htm ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 1:46pm
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Divorce- that is why we need Jesus. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 7:43pm
Perhaps you can explain why Matthew and Luke differ on when exactly Jesus was born? Matthew has Jesus being born during the reign of Herod the Great, whereas Luke has Jesus being born during the reign of Herod Archelaus, almost 10 years later! Was Jesus born twice? Don't rush. I will give you some time to find a suitable source to copy and paste!  ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 July 2009 at 12:01pm
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Have you found a source to copy yet, Believer? I can't wait to see your response to the contradiction between Matthew and Luke!
------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 13 July 2009 at 8:15pm
Still nothing Believer? 
------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Natassia
Date Posted: 20 July 2009 at 8:55pm
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@ Hichem
You wrote: Can those who persistently insist on proselyting the world into Christianity realize how grave and heinous that act is when they try to uproot the others' religion ? Can those who are equipped with all potentialities desist promulgating such texts and doctrines of which its men confessed that they comprise what is incomplete and what is false?!!! You are putting a lot of faith into the written word. Yes, documents are important. But they are not everything. Early Christianity was not spread by handing out Bibles. The gospel was spread via word of mouth.
What we have today (in the New Testament) are compilations of early Christian writings...some were letters written from a Christian to churches. Some were gospels telling about the life of Jesus. Were they all 100% historically accurate? Probably not. They weren't written by historians or scientists. The gospel of John, for example, was written in a very simple Greek (the author was likely a native Aramaic speaker) and had a very limited vocabulary. The early Church writers (2nd century, for example) believed that the gospel of John was written for the specific purposes of countering heretical gnosticism as well as to expound upon the theology of Christianity.
There is one verse in one of the epistles to Timothy (I believe) that says all scriptures are God-breathed. However, the writer does not elaborate on what the "scriptures" are. Would those have been the Old Testament (since the New Testament did not exist in its written form yet?) Here's the problem: even the Old Testament canon had not been officially decided until the late 1st century to early 2nd century AD.
So, for people to say that the Bible (and what exactly is "the Bible"? Would that be the Protestant or the Catholic one? What about the Ethiopian or Greek Orthodox ones?) is THE word of God is rather foolish (in my humble opinion).
I had to seek God before I could even think to understand the Bible. Once I "found" God, I read the Bible in order to know Him better. The writers of the Bible books, gospels, epistles, etc. were all describing their interactions and interpretations of God. I could relate to some writings better than others.
However, it was God who led me to the gospel...not the other way around. I was actually reading the Quran to learn about God before I started seriously digging into the Bible. I realized that there was only one truth: Either Jesus was the person described in the Christian writings or he was the person described in the Islamic ones.
When I had prayed on my knees, "Dear God, please save me," do you know what answer I received back?
"Dear child, I already have."
And that's when I knew. |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 25 July 2009 at 7:20pm
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salaams
here's a big contradiction:
couldn't wait write when i heard this news. i was told of an " understanding " that has taken place. though a brother Bill Plyer. my joy and happiness overwhelm me in what i heard.
bro Plyer noticed that in genesis that it was when Adam was singular; before the " separation " of eve that god made the covenant of eat this and don't eat that.
Eve was not present to receive this command. this is a Truth.
And by christian doctrine since Eve came " out of Adam " Adam is the head of the household and of the woman. Thus it was Adams responsibly to instruct her in the ways of god . he's THE MAN . Why then didn't Adam TEACH EVE NOT TO EAT! This was His responsibility and HE FAILED TO DO SO! Now you tell me WHO'S GUILTY?? and WHO'S THE INNOCENT? Christian Theology demands the guilt of "the man" who kept the knowledge of god to himself .
The most Eve is guilty of is a " tresspass " . also know to the jews as a " sin of ignorence " which in it's self is easly forgiven.
1 Timothy 2:14 (New International Version)
14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (New International Version) 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. church. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; ................. leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 25 July 2009 at 9:55pm
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Nastasia,
*(see below)
The bible reference is Genesis 2:5-18 which does say that Adam was alone in the Garden of Eden when he was instructed not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
I am not sure what your point is exactly.
If the contradiction you believe is coming from woman disobeying her husband, and is against church teachings, what you need to remember is there was no 'church' until after Adam and Eve were removed from the garden. Before they ate of the apple they were pure (Gen 3: 22-24)and so could talk to God freely. In effect they became 'mortal humans' after the fall from grace. After they left Eden Adam offered up prayer as a way to communicate with God. He was the first prophet so established the first church, so to speak.
1 Timothy 2:14 Eve was deceived and she in turn then deceived Adam.
The fall was a necessary step for mankind. Without it we would not be here.
(*my understanding when I was Christian.) ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 26 July 2009 at 1:46am
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salaams
the contradiction is in christian theology. christian theology has used the Sin of Eve as a tool of domince , oprestion and subjection to the male. the fall was all Her fault. SHE's the one to blame sins of man by disobayed gods comand ........... a comand she never heard a comand she never new knew.
but her husbend did. and said nothing.
your relpy makes my point. you quoted from timothy. The It's All Her Fault Verse. See What i mean.
as for you last comment if the fall was nessasary for man then Eve should be hailed as a hero for Her Selfless deed and to be subject to man for ever and ever.
leland
------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 26 July 2009 at 6:29am
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Salaams brother,
Lol, excuse my mistake...I thought I was replying to Nastassia
Yes, you could say that I guess. My only question for Christians really would be what is the point of Adam and Eve and the expulsion from the garden of Eden. Why were they important ? Christians post the contradictions to Islam, but unless I've missed something they haven't given a reason as of yet for why Adam(Eve) were in the garden of Eden in the first..what for? Like I say, maybe I missed something or was asleep------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 26 July 2009 at 6:26pm
salaams
I agree sis. the whole "original sin" thing has no baring on me personaly . my post was strickly for the enlightenment of our christian friends.
Good question my beloved sister. What's the point?
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Natassia
Date Posted: 26 July 2009 at 10:54pm
Eve DID NOT deceive Adam. The tempter deceived Eve. She sinned and gave some of the fruit to her husband who was with her. He ate of it. Their eyes were then opened. In the beginning of chapter 3, Eve confirms the rule God had put forth. This shows that either God reaffirmed the law when Eve was formed or Adam taught her the law (which is more likely). So, we can assume that it was Adam's responsibility as head of the family to teach the moral law: do not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and of evil. Eve knew the law but was deceived into breaking it. Adam knew the law and simply broke it because he wanted to and held no respect for it. When they explained the reasons for their transgression, do you know what happened? Eve admitted to being deceived by the Serpent. Adam said, "The woman you put here with me�she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." He put the blame on God and on Eve when he simply took the fruit when his wife gave it to him. Now do you understand why God was described as being almost "fanatical" throughout the Tanakh in regards to the Israelites marrying women of pagan nations? It is not through any fault of women that they are not to teach. It is the fault of men--their weaknesses--that women are not to be in religious authority over them (according to the pastoral epistles anyway). Men are so easily led astray...if a woman is being deceived by satan and she is a preacher of a congregation...how easily will it be for men to follow? Adam and Eve became KNOWING human beings: judging good and evil (although probably not always correctly). I think their bodies were always mortal--it is the soul that also became mortal thanks to sin because the wages of sin is death. God never said that man would be mortal because he sinned. He said he would work the ground until he died and was buried in it. It doesn't say that he wasn't going to die before the fall. And God never specifically said anything about death to Eve. Does that mean women were supposed to live forever? Adam and Eve committed the FIRST sin...the "original" one. Humans have followed in their footsteps ever since. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 July 2009 at 6:13am
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Nastassia,
Not all Christians believe the way you do.
I for one have a hard time understanding sometimes, tho I always try to.
I am pasting a link which explains a few things as I knew and accepted them to be at the time I was a Christian.
So as not to bore you with too much, it is in simplifed form (written for children) but it includes the scriptures we are talking about right now.
Of course I don't expect you to accept these views. But sometimes things are not always black and white in life. It isn't just about one muslim and one christian having a battle here.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=eac2ff3ff4c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e36d5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD - http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=eac2ff3ff4c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e36d5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 27 July 2009 at 8:24am
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And for Muslims, in The Quran, Adam and Eve did not blame anyone but themselves! This is a big point.. acceptance and repentance. Whereas as Iblis, when he would not bow to Adam, blamed God and Adam... he could not be humble. He had pride. This is different then in the Christan concept of Adam 'blaming' someone else. AND that Iblis deceived them. He whispered and whispered... and swore upon God. So yes Adam and Eve committed a wrong but Allah is most merciful to those who repent.. How beautiful is that.. take individual responsibility. Don't blame another for your own mistakes. I was listening to the lecture series on Rights and Responsibilities of Marriage... ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 July 2009 at 9:26am
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You know...part of this discussion is why didnt Adam take responsibilityfor his wife. Actually he did. When he realised that Eve would be cast out of Eden for eating the fruit he ate the fruit too knowing he would also be cast out. Sounds like a very decent male image really.
It kind of comes down to any typical marriage doesn't it. A spouse might make a mistake and the other party forgives and they progress onwards. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 27 July 2009 at 2:24pm
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Salaams Martha, What version are you coming from with Adam? Which bible?
iwas respnding to Natassia..  ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 July 2009 at 3:28pm
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Salaams Hayfa,
Standard bible (KJ's version) and Book of Mormon (book of Moses). Might as well include those scriptures and make it more interesting.
Whilst most Christians don't recognise the Book of Mormon it gives an historical/religious account of peoples living on the American continent.
As most of the time we talk about the bible and the area and people around israel and then the qu'ran and its people in the Arabian peninsula I thought it would be quite interesting to include the Mormon's view too.
As it is a free for all please don't mind me responding, lol. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 29 July 2009 at 4:38am
What is the big fuss about your Jesus was born 500 years later.
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Posted By: Natassia
Date Posted: 31 July 2009 at 6:30am
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Just to let you know, Martha, I have zero respect for the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I also have zero respect for the way they deliberately mistranslate and misquote scriptures. If you've read the book of Genesis yourself, you'd know that it says nothing about Adam eating the fruit because he knew Eve would have to leave the garden. First of all, God never said that the punishment for eating of the tree would be banishment. No, He said it would be death. And since when are we supposed to choose our spouses over the will of God? See, the Mormon doctrine about the Fall of Man is both theologically inconsistent and scripturally inaccurate. The Mormans try to make the Bible fit Joseph Smith Jr.'s theology rather than try to make their theology and doctrines fit the Bible. ((shrug)) If that's how they want to do things, fine...but if that's the case, I really wish they'd provide some evidence of those golden tablets and magical spectacles. |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 31 July 2009 at 12:39pm
Huh? What on earth are you talking about? Can anyone understand this guy's incoherent ramblings? I certainly can't!  Jouberar, whatever you just said does not answer my question. You really should study logical fallacies, because every one of your posts is riddled with them. This particular one is a mix of a red herring and a tu tuoque. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |