Assalamu alaikum,

I feel so sad and so sick at the events in London today.  Who are these "so called Muslims" who have stolen our beautiful religion, twisted the words of the Qur'an and made a mockery of everything we stand for?

Why does there seem to be so many "so called Muslims" willing to commit acts of terror and murder civilians wontonly?  Who teaches these mindless puppets to "think" this way?  Who encourages them to act in such completely un-Islamic ways?

I am outraged that yet another "so called Muslim group" has commited yet another atrocity against civilians and done so yet again in the name of Islam. 

Why do we Muslims allow "so called Muslims" to think and act in such a disgusting manner.  Why are not the 1.(whatever it is) billion Muslims not screaming at the tops of their voices that this is wrong, this is not Islam, these are not Muslims?

May Allah have Mercy on the souls of those who were murdered in London today.  May Allah have Mercy on us all.

Peace, ummziba.

aisha wrote: because maybe just maybe its not muslims doing this there is alot of money about and mr bush yet again is near

 i agree....

aisha wrote: because maybe just maybe its not muslims doing this there is alot of money about and mr bush yet again is near

I'm sure they are not Muslims.... I seriously doubt that they even qualify to be called humans.....

aisha wrote: because maybe just maybe its not muslims doing this there is alot of money about and mr bush yet again is near

That is interesting since there is an Islamic group that has claimed responsibility but they do not know if it really was that group or someone else.

Lameese

Asslamualaikum

It is really very sad. Every individual who has kind heart can feel the intensity of the situation. Why to kill innocent people? 

God knows better what the motive behind blaming Muslims? Every effort is being made to label Muslims as Terrorist.

In our country there were terrorist attacks. There were killing in the mosques,shrine. And all these activities were labelled as sectarianism... Unbelievable.  First of all how a true muslim can dare to kill an innocent soul and then killing in a Mosque!!!A true muslim cant do this.(What to say about a traitor???) 

Its all plotting against muslim Ummah.

MAy Allah give us Hidayet. MAY allah keep us under His protection.

MA Salaam

amna_ali wrote: Asslamualaikum Every effort is being made to label Muslims as Terrorist. Its all plotting against muslim Ummah.

I can assure you Amna, today in Britain, despite the attrocities in London, there is absolutely NO effort to label Muslims as terrorists. Don't allow yourself to be fooled into thinking otherwise.

Whoever did this didn't care in the slightest about the religion of those unfortunate enough to be travelling on the tube trains that were bombed.

Thanks for correction.

Now I will be more careful in the use of my words.

Actually whatever is happening in the society around me makes me think so. All disturbance, Uncertainty ... Nobody knows what will happen in the next moment. People afraid to go in the mosques.This situation horrifies.

amna_ali wrote: Thanks for correction. Now I will be more careful in the use of my words. Actually whatever is happening in the society around me makes me think so. All disturbance, Uncertainty ... Nobody knows what will happen in the next moment. People afraid to go in the mosques.This situation horrifies.

It's ok Amna, don't worry, we all use the wrong words from time to time.

However horrifying things seem, by their actions, terrorists destroy any claim to legitimacy.  Fear is their currency.... Give yourself a chance by not buying into their economic model. :) 

With the war declining in popularity, and the US and Britain having to pull out likely in the near future, it puts one nation in the region in serious threat, since a civil war in Iraq could easily evolve into an alliance between the groups, against their arch enemy, Israel. Resistance in Syria and Jordan against these enemies of their enemy(Israel) would not be great, and even popular with parts of these societies, and this would cause Syria and Jordan to fall like dominos and turn against Israel, if not the armies of these nations, then atleast large portions of Jordanian and Syrian society. The Senario of a nuclear bomb going off in the near future in the United States is very likely, since the pain of the british people together with the pain of the people in the United States and images and news reports about the horrors of a nuclear bomb going off in a US city will cause the US to send more troops to Iraq and elsewhere and even widening the conflict with it's strongest ally The UK right next to it...by this happening Israel will not have to face the threat of a civil war in Iraq spreading over to it's neighbouring countries, or atleast not having to face it alone...If you wish, you can read how i came to these conclusions in the post under General discussion started by JohnDM, "London 9.11 bombing".

bat42001 wrote: Does't the islamic religion teach to hate those that aren't mulsim? All infadels must convert or die? Heard that somewhere.

You heard wrong.

Please, help me to understand someone.

I hurt so much for what has happened today.

I have friends of all faiths who are disgusted with what happened today in London and what happened in America on 9/11.

I worried all day for friends and family in London. When I found those closest to me were ok, I still felt sadness for those who were not so lucky. And anger.

How can anyone hate enough to commit the attrocities these people are capable of?

These people are making a terrible mistake. I KNOW that muslims are not violent. Unfortunately there are some (many?) that put everyone under the same umbrella...violent, murderous people, calling themselves 'muslim' and decent, genuine, peace-seeking muslims. I know the difference. I pray that the rest of the world does too.

Fundamentalists spring up in all faiths.

Love happens in all faiths.

Clarabelle

Yes, it is very devastating to hear that a muslim is doing all those attacks. With all do respect to all the religions I think  these so called "terrorists" should be put under a new catagory of religion.I don't think that they even have a religion.

I want to who would do something so terrible and say "I DID IT" and then be on the run for the rest of his life, common they there is someting fishy......

I know everyone wants to live with freedom

May Allah help those in need

That religion is called "satanism".  The terrorists are truly the spawn of Satan.  Those who kill and those who celebrate the killing have no compassion.   

Rose wrote: Yes, it is very devastating to hear that a muslim is doing all those attacks. With all do respect to all the religions I think  these so called "terrorists" should be put under a new catagory of religion.I don't think that they even have a religion. I want to who would do something so terrible and say "I DID IT" and then be on the run for the rest of his life, common they there is someting fishy...... I know everyone wants to live with freedom May Allah help those in need

Asslamualaikum

Yusuf. wrote: bat42001 wrote: Does't the islamic religion teach to hate those that aren't mulsim? All infadels must convert or die? Heard that somewhere. You heard wrong.

Yes Brother Yusuf is right. Islam is a religion of peace and love. The very meaning of Islam is peace. It asks its followers to be kind and just towards other humans

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on acount of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity."(Quran 60:8)

Ma Salaam

Assalamu alaikum,

Read here:

http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=21444 - http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&refer enceID=21444

http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=21444 - http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&refer enceID=21444

Peace, ummziba.

I have lived and worked with muslims, and those that did this are not muslims. I agree with Colin that they are not fit to be called human.

I actually think they have a valid point: the US and UK war on Iraq was wrong. I agree that Saddam's regimes had to be brought down somehow but to go in all guns blazing was wrong. Innocent people were killed. However, we cannot keep bombing eachother back and forth in retaliation or to make a point. There have to be other ways.

Those resposible should also remember that thousands (perhaps millions) did not want the war on Iraq to happen. We marched and campaigned but it went ahead. I think Blair's narrow margin of victory at the recent general election made him realise how unpopular his decision to go along with Bush was. At least I hope so.

I believe that the only way we can really change this money, violence and power dominated world is to work together, discuss things, listen to eachother, accept that if we all believed the same thing then this world would be so boring! No discussion, no learning about others' ways of life, their cultures.

No 'god' worth our faith would demand that we kill eachother to make ourselves heard. These people cannot say they have worked in the name of God or Allah.

Love to all

Clarabelle

ZamanH wrote: [QUOTE=Ummziba]Why do we Muslims allow "so called Muslims" to think and act in such a disgusting manner.[/.QUOTE] Sorry to disappoint you, dear sis; although, I know the terrorists were wrong, I won't condemn them because they didn't attack first and they killed much less. I will pray for their forgiveness. I am sorry that the children were killed but, frankly, I am disppointed that few were killed.

Zaman,Qur'an is saying different;what a wonderful book It is and we are so far away from...we should read more...

005.028
YUSUFALI: "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.

ZamanH wrote: [QUOTE=Ummziba]Why do we Muslims allow "so called Muslims" to think and act in such a disgusting manner.[/.QUOTE] Sorry to disappoint you, dear sis; although, I know the terrorists were wrong, I won't condemn them because they didn't attack first and they killed much less. I will pray for their forgiveness. I am sorry that the children were killed but, frankly, I am disppointed that few were killed.

They attacked trains filled with Muslims, Christians, Hindus and other innocent members of the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural population of London. Which particular group are you most dissapointed they failed to kill? Or maybe you are just dissapointed in general that the body count has not reached the sort of numbers that would satisfy you?

You are really sick!

Bismillah

Brothers and Sisters in Islam,

If killing of women, children and old men is strictly prohibited during the time of war... how can one possibly slaughter innocents with such violent attacks in the name of Allah that have taken place in London? 

As on September 11th in New York, before the dust settled over London and the smoke cleared out, before the dead bodies were counted, many media fingers around the world were already pointed at Muslims. To make us feel guilty for something our religion stands strictly against, to make our subconsciousness give up and admit the link between terror and Islam. That is the main objective... to break us.

These are attacks against ordinary people, and the beasts who are behind them are the same who continuously and as we speak shower bombs on civilians in Iraq and wipe villages of innocents in Afghanistan. It is their war, and them making their worst nightmares coming true on us.

This is not Islam, it has never been and will never be such. These are the times when appearance no longer reflects the reality. These are the times of deception. These are the times with events so awkward and twisted that the sun may begin rising from the west without making anyone surprised. We must continue waving our banner of Shahada  high and proud, spread the message of Islam loud and clear and don't let ourselves be forced to speak in a subdued and apologetic tone.

Assalamu alaikum,

We do not know in fact that it was Middle Eastern terrorists who conducted this attack. It came quite conveniently for Bush; support for his conduct of the Iraq invasion is waning. After quite a bit of research I am convinced that the Pentagon was struck by a missile fired from a US warplane. This attack likewise could very well have been engineered by the Bush administration. We must also keep this in mind.

I would be careful about who you say is not Muslim. If a Muslim calls another Muslim a kuffar unjustifiably then he/she becomes kuffar themselves. Despite all the alleged "Muslim" organizations that have claimed credit for this bombing (the 'Secret Organization of Al-Qaeda in Europe'..that's original), there is no substantial proof that it was done by any real militant organization. There is such thing as black-ops, you know. And though I must admit that I too do suspect some misguided militant group, I know the Western world well enough not to rule out the possibility that Western governments (in conjunction with 'Israel' no doubt) will commit any number of atrocities against their own citizens in order to justify their attacks on Muslims everywhere.

However, for arguments sake, let's assume it was an Islamic militant group. I would like to point out the following hadith: (though I have to admit that since I've only heard this at the mosque, I don't know who narrated it) "A man asked the Prophet of Allah if a Muslim could steal and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied, 'Yes.' The man then asked the Prophet if a Muslim could commit murder and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied 'Yes.'...". There's more to this hadith, about how a Muslim can't lie unjustifiably and still be a Muslim, but the point of the hadith is that even if a Muslim does commit unjustifiable murder (such as in the case of the bombings in London) he remains a Muslim, though he's a great sinner.

Bismillah

AK47 wrote: However, for arguments sake, let's assume it was an Islamic militant group. I would like to point out the following hadith: (though I have to admit that since I've only heard this at the mosque, I don't know who narrated it) "A man asked the Prophet of Allah if a Muslim could steal and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied, 'Yes.' The man then asked the Prophet if a Muslim could commit murder and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied 'Yes.'...". There's more to this hadith, about how a Muslim can't lie unjustifiably and still be a Muslim, but the point of the hadith is that even if a Muslim does commit unjustifiable murder (such as in the case of the bombings in London) he remains a Muslim, though he's a great sinner.

AK47, the misinterpreted hadith explains your weak understanding of its meaning. Murder is prohibited in Islam and if commited deserves severe punishment, which under Shari'ah is death. The person may well remain being a Muslim (all sins except shirk can be forgiven in the sight of Allah) but that does not free him from facing the punishment. This hadith teaches us not to approach such sin, and if we have done wrong in the past when we were ignorant or unaware it instructs us to repent immediately. It does NOT (as many mistakenly deduce) tell us that it is OK/ acceptable to murder, so long as we repent afterwards... Let's be careful! There is no way for this hadith to justify the act of militants whether they claim to be Muslims or non-Muslims. Many Muslims do want revenge for masses of murdered brethren by infidel leaders and troops, however this is not the way for retaliation.

Narrated 'Ikrima from Ibn 'Abbas: Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, No. 800)

Bismillah

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, a time would come when the murderer would not know why he has committed the murder, and the victim would not know why he has been killed. (Sahih Bukhari, Book 41, No. 6949)

MOCKBA, I was not misinterpreting the hadith at all, YOU were misinterpreting my point. I'm not passing judgement on whom was responsible for the london bombings, so I'm not declaring my opinion on the subject of murder in islamic jurisprudence, all I was pointing out with that hadith was that regardless of your opinion of these militants, you can't say they're not Muslims when they are still believers.

And Allah knows best.

Well, then we have to question if they are believers. Either you believe in Qur'an and Hadeeth or you do not. You cannot say, ok, I will believe in this and do it but I will believe how I want to on another point and go against the Qur'an and then go on to say you totally believe in Islam either.

But you seem to know better.........

Lameese

Bismillah

Thank you for correction. It was in my assumption that they were suicide bombers that perished at the time of committing the grave sin. On the other hand, there are conditions whereby a person is put outside of the fold of Islam, very often when one's faith is not manifested through his/ her deeds. And Allah knows best.

Bismillah,

May Allah, SWT, bless and guide the people devastated by bombings each day.

It is grey area in many faiths it seems. If you do wrong/ break the rules you can be forgiven if truly repentant. However, if you commit the sinful act kowing that it is wrong but with it in mind that you will be forgiven.... Only our creator can judge, he does indeed know best.

I am not familiar enough yet with the Islamic faith. I want to learn more. I do not understand the terms used etc. Please forgive me if I offend by using the wrong terms, I do not mean to. Is a hadith a teaching?

Clara

Bismillah,

Clara,

Look under Quran and Sunna on the main page to study the basics.  A hadith is a saying or action of the prophet Muhammad, SAW, which was observed and recorded.

Clara,

Make sure the hadeeths you are reading are the true words of the Prophet. You can find many authentic materials out there that give the true hadeeths.

Lameese

Sophie_J wrote: Asalaamu Alaykum ......... if you think this is jihad then Allah help you is all I can say Sophie

W's Sophie,

I am so sorry this is happening there. The people that think this is  Jihad or are not sorry the body count is not higher will have to answer to Allah, their mouths will tell what is in their hearts.

People often twist the words of God to fit what they think is correct. And you are right..........Allah help those that have gone against Him and what He says and what His rules are.

Again, this is a horrible thing and I am sorry this is happening to you all there..............

Lameese

Bismillah

b95000 wrote: A flawed democracy is certainly better then no democracy at all - wouldn't you agree?

"A burst balloon is better than no balloon at all" would you also agree?

So, does that mean a bad Muslim who bombs the subway is better then not having been a Muslim at all?

We can all make those generalizations MOCKBA........

Lameese

Lameese

Bismillah

The parallel is not beween democracy and balloon... it is the uselesness that is a common point in these two statements.

Flawed democracy could be equally used to describe any government in the world... having anything ugly hidden in the shade of the flaw.

Government that is first and foremost obedient to God's commands is better... the rest is dirty and bloodstained politics.  

MOCKBA wrote: Bismillah Government that is first and foremost obedient to God's commands is better... the rest is dirty and bloodstained politics.

You mean like the Saud's in KSA? That kind of government? Or were you talking about Jordan's government? Where is that kind of government again?  Where is this government that "is first and foremost obedient to God's commands"?  Maybe the UAE? Which one does not have a Royal Family? Where is that again?

...................

Lameese

Bismillah,

Sophie,

Thank you for your post.  It was the most cogent post on the topic.  We will pray for all of those hurt in bombings.

Lameese, unfortunately such government does not exist in establishment today. This however does not give Muslims a discouraging thought that it is not achievable. Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the Law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world...

b25000, governing system of a tribe of small indigenous people in remote Amazonia is more superior in RESULTS than your filthy "democracy". Democracy that proclaims its fight against corruption, while having corrupted non other but religion... and to the extent that Satan himself will soon embrace it to the applause of gay bishops and paedophile parishioners. And this is why this "democracy" is not comfortable sharind this world with neighbours that are trying to establish obedience to God.  

Assalamu alaikum,

This point was made somewhere here before, and I received much grief for it, but, I feel a need to reiterate.  Democracy is not compatible with Islam in the sense that in a democracy the majority vote wins.  If the majority vote for something that is against the laws of Allah, this is not good for Islam or Muslims.

Take, for example, the "democracy" in Canada.  This democractic government has gone with the wishes of the majority of the people and voted "same sex marriage" into law.  When the majority wants, and votes for something evil, it is not good for anyone.

We cannot expect that in a majority Muslim country that a democracy would work any better.  Look at the example of Turkey, where Muslimahs are not allowed to wear hijab in government buildings or schools.  When the majority of people do not follow the laws of Allah, democracy works against us all.

Brother Mockba, you are so right when you say: "Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world..."

Peace, ummziba.

This point was made somewhere here before, and I received much grief for it, but, I feel a need to reiterate.  Democracy is not compatible with Islam in the sense that in a democracy the majority vote wins.  If the majority vote for something that is against the laws of Allah, this is not good for Islam or Muslims." We cannot expect that in a majority Muslim country that a democracy would work any better.  Look at the example of Turkey, where Muslimahs are not allowed to wear hijab in government buildings or schools.  When the majority of people do not follow the laws of Allah, democracy works against us all.

It's not simply about what's good for Islam.  The world is made up of 6 billion plus people only somewhat over 1 billion are Muslim and there are something like 1.5 billion Christians.  How in the world will you relate to the rest of the world if your only consideration is what is good for Islam?  Isn't this what has gotten us into this conundrum?  We MUST learn to relate to each other or Muslims had best separate themselves from the rest of the world...is that what you really want or advocate?  Separation, removal from all the benefits of other societies and cultures?  What a shame if that's true..

Brother Mockba, you are so right when you say: "Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world..."

"there will be no success in this world..."  Again, such an monolithic view of the world is not practicable - do you really think?  Such disrespect, outright disdain it appears, for non-Muslims, is troubling to me to say the least...is this really the way Muslims are - disdainful and disrespectful of other cultures and faiths...I guess I'd grown up differently, hearing differently...

What say you?

b95000 wrote: Brother Mockba, you are so right when you say: "Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world..." "there will be no success in this world..."  Again, such an monolithic view of the world is not practicable - do you really think?  Such disrespect, outright disdain it appears, for non-Muslims, is troubling to me to say the least...is this really the way Muslims are - disdainful and disrespectful of other cultures and faiths...I guess I'd grown up differently, hearing differently... What say you?

What say I?

I hold no disrespect nor outright disdain for any human being.  What I find disrepectful and outright disdainful is total disregard for the Creator.  We were created to worship Allah and act in the way He has set down in the revealed texts.  No human has the right to supercede the laws of the Creator.

la illaha illahla - there is no god but Allah.  To follow any other way is to snub our noses at the Almighty.  If all of humankind would finally figure that out it would be utopia!

Of course, the Creator gave humankind free will - there is no compulsion in religion, so everyone can choose to follow Him or not.

"Verily, Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: it is man that wrongs his own soul."  Qur'an 10:44

If you knew history, if you read the Qur'an, you would see that Muslims have nothing but respect for all human life.

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: What I find disrepectful and outright disdainful is total disregard for the Creator...Of course, the Creator gave humankind free will - there is no compulsion in religion, so everyone can choose to follow Him or not. "Verily, Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: it is man that wrongs his own soul."  Qur'an 10:44

This is vital.  No compulsion. 

Let's look then at a situation where you have people that do have 'regard for their Creator.' What do you think about living (in countries) side by side with Christians - for instance.  How will that work - how will you form a government of that country?  How could you base it on Sharia if there were just as many Christians, say, or more Christians than Muslims?  Wouldn't you, of necessity need to come up with another system that would work for the Christians and the Muslims - together?  If yes, then will the government formed be the 'democratic filth' that Mockba referred to?  Or just what sort of arrangement will it be?

That is, we're assuming there's no compulsion as you stated ummziba.

May the Lord bless you all by His gracious Hand.

Bismillah,

Fervently sought for Utopias historically bathed their countries in bloodshed.  Practicality and pragmatism are characteristics of Prophet Muhammad, SAW.  We can put our thinking caps on and devise a solution for world peace, can't we?  Polarized ideaologies won't work.  As far as I've seen the people I think of as not being Muslims seem to be in charge of the design of Muslim countries. (People who murder innocents.)  The Taliban is an example of a failed Utopian leadership. 

I'd rather work together with many different nationalities and religions to figure things out because that is the reality we live in.  Prophet Muhammad, SAW, would know how to work things out because he was known for his honesty and diplomacy.

Bismillah

If in your presumed state majority (by their vote) will constitute worshippers of Satan, who having gained power will proclaim their "sincerity" in protecting the rights of God-worshipping minority groups ... 'filthy' would only be one of the words to describe such system of governance.

And judging by developments that have taken place in the past centuries this is what democracy leads its societies to become... godless materialistic mass unable to quench its thirst for more.

Muslims should not support the terrorists but neither, should they cooperate with the Western govts. in their war against terrorism. Even if its accepted "terrorsists" are bad, are far more better than the Western soldiers who oppress the weak and poor people of the world.

Muslims are weak and poor, they won't take to arms unless they are compelled to do so.

Bismillah,

Sometimes when people talk about things they don't realize that talk can really become reality.  Or it can sit there, which it often does.  But just because something has been talked about seemingly forever and endlessly doesn't mean that in the blink of an eye all of that talk spirals into reality.  Actions are taken which cannot be reversed, like bloodshed and oppression. 

This is why I believe it is important to discuss things with this sense of possiblitly of implementation in mind.  Maybe there is a future leader of a country observing or even participating in these discussions.  Frivilous speech regarding such vital topics is fine for jokes, but not for serious discussions. 

It's fine to shoot down democracy and all forms of current government because they have all failed.  We did great for a little while under the blessed leadership of Prophet Muhammad, SAW. 

 What can we do in reality without him as our physical leader?  He was the absolute leader, but he was wonderfully special.  So, I'm going to from the start say that Kingships should not be considered as viable options in the future plan for world peace.  (What about temporary autocratic rulers, you know, with a limited time period?  I guess they would change the law to allow the temporariness to become permanent passing to their children.)

(Of course there are people laughing unceaslingly at this discussion, which has clearly diverted from the topic of London, but that's okay.  It's all good.)

Bismillah

Sister Herjihad. In light of your last post, may be we should start a new thread under new heading where we could contribute thoughts, articles and references on the concept of Islamic System of Government.

I will be posting some initial information, insha Allah, and will look forward to reading others' opinions, useful references and articles.

It's not that democracy is filthy. The way we have begun to spread democracy from 52,000 feet up above in the sky sort of a way and (not to forget) with all those depleted uranium shells, she has begun to look something like George W Bush himself.

Now the sad fact is that poor GWB doesn't hold a very kool picture in certain countries. Not just in Afghanistan and Iraq but quite a few others also. My friend, first we just want  f r e e d o m! I hope you will agree that freedom is a good thing? Also for people who are not Americans. No?

Once we have freedom from American troops and freedom from your CIA planted heads of our states, we may consider democracy.

Right now we just want our lands F R E E.

Democracy is filthy?

I think you would find in a place where everyone is, say, voluntarily Muslim, where everyone is educated, where everyone has food and clothing and shelter and love and safety, democracy and Islam would be COMPLETELY compatible. People would vote for the correct things and not vote for the wrong, unhealthy things.

Good luck. You guys are going to have to sell your product REALLY hard and hope that eventually your people will be educated and healthy enough not to spoil the party for you. Trust the people enough and educate the people enough and they will trust, too, and vote the right way.

Kim...

All the folks don't even agree with God, why would I expect all of them to agree with me? i promise you upon my scout's honour, I am not GBW or something like that?

My friend, I wouldn't need your confirmation. If you study the English language you will find out that it's just a polite form of actually confirming what we say. So if something doesn't suit you, it become a rhetorical excess?

You seriously think I would take your bait and start dancing to your tune of how Afghanistan was under Talibaan? It may suit you or the Neo-Cons to stir that point up.

What killing field it has become under the US interests me at this moment of time. The way the US abuses her prisoners is what interests the world right now. Not what Saddam or Mullah Omar did.

Isn't it sad that you have been reduced to comparing US conduct just with that of Saddam's regime or with Taalibaan?

I am an Afghan and now we are fighting to free our lands from the Americans. Any problem with that? From a man from a freedom loving country?

B: Interesting - are you a native English speaker?

The problem is that the natives don�t really use English (Try George Bernard Shaw�s Pygmalion). I had to acquire the Queen�s English with a bit of effort and, of course, considerable expense.

how can the US be so omni-present?

I have ever only discussed the US role in these occupations at hand. I have not thus far even mention how the US had over run an Elected government in Teheran on the behest of the Iranian American Oil Company and placed a Shah with a nett IQ of 91.2. Some argue that it was proven to be 93.1

B: Ah, so you don't want to discuss the context of the current situation?  You are fine with all what transpired under the Taliban?

If Taliban were all that bad then why were they hosted in Texas � July 2001?

And, why are the Afghans again gathering around them, now?

I know we do have ledgers full of killing and destruction accounts across the globe, I am only interested in how many have been killed in Afghanistan and how many are being killed even today and listed under the grand total of Al-Qaeda.

I am glad at least you recognise �some� civilians killed by military power in Afghanistan. I won't go into the exact figures and spoil this moment of sharing sadness.

Bruce, I am a prisoner of my own position. I have very little time left from looking after a huge clan. Right now all our days are taken counting the dead on both sides of the border. Pakistan army seems to have got a much bigger Killing Franchise from the US than we could ever imagine. I am tempted to leave discussing the context for the historians.

I sincerely hope not John Howard the Australian prime minister?

I would reserve some very senior Australian journalist�s comments about him.

I was on this site under Khanzadeh, but lost my password. Signed up under this screen name after that.

My friend, thank you for your kind sentiments.

You would know that we have always been a free people. We always fight hard at the slightest scent of a puppet in Kabul.

That�s what is going on right now.

One day we shall be free.

Bismillah,

Death Cultist.  That is a most appropriate name for the terrorists.

No, Bruce, I don�t belong to any �organised� religion, political party or other such band. I was raised in all faiths for my role with a 2.2 million strong "community" spread across Afghanistan, India and Pakistan. We have Sikh, Hindu, Muslim and Christian followers.

I had to read Gita, the Torah and cover the Bible with an American Missionary before reading an English translation of the Quran. A Sikh gayani was at court to teach me gurmukhi so that I could follow the Garanth Saheb. I have lead mass (Psalm 143) at a Cathedral, prayed at Hindu temples and eaten Parshad with my Sikhs at their gurdawaras.

Your Iran point makes sense.

We all know how areas of Brit influence were gradually taken over by the US and, ironically, with all those sour liabilities of the Brit Colonial Rule. US took over a business from her English speaking cousins with millions of irritated customers!

I hope you will appreciate that the realities of Life are dictated by peoples' perceptions. Say, even in our ordinary day-to-day life, two neighbours can come to see and take very different stand on some absolutely simple point. What do we do here?

Shoot the both?

Or, just the one the lobbyists convince us to be in the wrong?

People in this area remember just what they have actually seen.

They saw the Shah entering Teheran on top of an American tank and, then a Colonel Roosevelt took to direct him and his regime from an anteroom in his palace - for a good 21 years.

In the 50s Iran was about the Koolest place in town.

Teheran was known Mid East�s Paris. Even the Bombay film industry people would spend their long weekends there. Not in the swinging suburbs of their own city. If you look at this situation with an open mind, you would find that Khomeni would have been a total nobody, but for blatant American support for an oppressive Pehelvi regime.

A bit like Washington is now suppressing a global probe into Karimov�s Uzbek killings. No, not really for her own interests?

My friend, peoples' attitudes are formed by their perceptions and what the experience. Not by the State Department's desires or just merely by someone's sermons.

Today�s global situation would be different if the US only ever followed the just path. We both know that corporate oligarchy has a big hand in running the US and it often does smell a bit of oil.

OBL wouldn�t have been hosted by any country in the world had it not been for the sheer presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia. Saudi is the single most sensitive point for our world�s 1,473,000,000 Muslims.

We are almost friends now, lets agree that even people who handle stolen goods at the street level, always make sure they hold some documentation to make that camcorder in their glove compartment just a bit kosher!!

We know the US had obtained a document from the House of Saud.

This could be a good situation for the Americans. But for the rest of the world the Sauds had come to be seen as crooked as their backers. OBL would have been just a Riyadh builder only if he was not boosted by US deeds + the Americans inability to consider or, mostly, even to understand people in the street.

The saddest fact is that if the Americans had used their affable smile and just learnt to cultivate with legitimate people in other countries, they would have been the most loved characters in the whole world. This would have cost your country less than 2.5% of what your wars have cost you.

Yes, they literally believe in death...it is like an article of faith...it is very, very preverse and frightening for the rest of us that respect life, honor life, want to protect life..the question is how can we upend the hijacking of Islam that they are attempting..?

Very simple, be just and stop killing people or occupying their lands. That's the only way out.

Bismillah,

Whisper and B,

You might not realize that my definition of terrorist includes anyone dropping bombs on innocent people.  It is against my religion to kill non-combatants.  I would like "collateral damage" to be against the law in my country.

B, we can pray for Allah, SWT, to punish all transgressors for he is in charge.  I advocate praying to Allah, SWT, against them all as well, but I brought up the Al-Qaeda group because they had the nerve to ask for our prayers when we hate them for killing so many innocents and frightening them with their evil ways.

But now that I think about it, I remember something GWB said about God being behind him and his decisions.  Yeah, that deserves prayers against his evil bomb dropping, country invading ways also.

I personally would like to see the destruction of all weapons of mass destruction, which includes bombs from planes et cetera.  I was very sad when the dismantling of nuclear warheads stopped because the Soviet Union fell apart and the powers that be in America had no incentive to destroy them anymore.

If we all agreed that we need to stop mass killings, then we could enter a world treaty, and have much more peace.

Herjihad, I have checked. Now, it's perfectly kosher to kill. GBW went to a mount in the States and got an upgrade of the Ten Commandments (aka TC version VII - Windows 2003/4).

It reads "thou shalt kill only from 52,000 feet in the air and if you can fabricate enough explanations, for your own voters if not for the rest of the world"

You may have noticed, all America towns are planned on a square grid. Our designs seem to effect our approach to life. Leaving aside that rare breed of the Lewis Lapham or Noam Chomsky likes all others seem to live in a very sqaure grid of response to almsot evrything in their lives.

Bismillah,

It is 100 degrees with no air conditioner.  To continue...

We need to start preventing crime with the crime that is preventable (people who would behave nicely if they really knew how and were not led into crime).  Food, education, recreation for poor kids all over the world, and a meaningful existence for all of us (caring for others through giving, volunteering et cetera).  This topic could take PAGES!

Most American kids have violence bred into us by our culture and surroundings.  We are also taught that girls and boys are a different breed from each other, and we are raised this way.  I consider both of these faulty and destructive.  Yeah, it's a cute joke to say: Men!  But our differences are overplayed way too much.

We need to breed peace, love, compassion, understanding, communication skills into our children.  And beyond this, there are still evil souls who will commit atrocities, like the pedophiles all over the world, but that I hear about in America and Europe a lot.  (Unfortunatley, they are in Arabic and other countries as well.)

The current American government's only interest is power, oil, and glory.  (That's because they were taught violence when they were kids.)  Do you see the cycle?  It is for peace loving Muslims, and people of other faiths, to encourage peace and good behavior.

How does dropping bombs on innocent villages help anybody? My country should still be paying reparations to the black slaves who were stolen from their countries, the Indians whose land we stole, and the Japanese whom we massacered with the worst weapons of mass destruction use ever.

With paying all of our bills, and healthcare for all of our citizens, we wouldn't have any money for invading other countries.  But we'd have healthier, happier human being Americans.

By the way, I don't know of an Arabic country that is better.  Certainly not Jordan.  We all seem to have the same violent behavior and attitudes as a society.  It's really hard to purge and find peace, but we can try.

Please Herjihad we must not mock anyone�s faith.

It�s an article of his faith that God can design something wrong, but never never the US go wrong.

Whisper wrote: Please Herjihad we must not mock anyone�s faith. It�s an article of his faith that God can design something wrong, but never never the US go wrong.

Well, isn't that a double edged sword? That can go for any country in the world. Or person......

Bismillah,

Would someone like to post one of the hundreds of innocent villages that the U.S. has bombed?  (Can't you think of one, B?)

Osama Bin Laden???  He got his start from the U.S. funding him a million dollars in Afganistan.  That is accepted even by the Bush admin.

A sister pointed out that the U.S.'s funding of the Iraq was has caused proportional decreases in public health and welfare programs in the U.S.  Medicaid dollars were directly used to bomb towns in Iraq! 

 How many disenfranchised kids are going to turn their poverty and anger into hatred for the powers that be?  This is the most important question:  What future unibombers and Oklahoma City bombers are we breeding right here at home through poverty and neglect?  We don't know their names yet, but unfortunately, we will soon.  Unless of course we change things now by caring for our people and our neighbors as best we can through preventative measures such as health care and housing and food and work.

Herjihad, I won't address you as sister, I prefer dukhtar (daughter in Farsi).

Not just villages, but innumerable wedding parties, delegations and anything and everything. I have phoned my man in Peshawar, we shall have a whole list by the end of this week. Why else would the Afghan public begin to turn against someone who actually liberated them from the Talibaan? It's just random killings and outright vulgar behaviour of the US troops. They are utterly devoid of any cultural or even human sensitivity.

Though, I suggest not to pay much attention to this poster. Just watch his posts, he is bent on provoking one thing or the other, all hours. He doesn't hold even a single point that can be backed by anything other than his own words. Let's be a bit light and laugh at such a state. 

My son is psychiatrist. He did say something about such behaviour, but I won't like to mention it here on the site or hurt this young man's feelings. Let him enjoy his fantasies. He hasn't started to kill people for assering his points. At least not as yet.

Well, isn't that a double edged sword? That can go for any country in the world. Or person

No. Some people do believe in certain things a wee above a flag or their nationhoods.

There are a lot of people that believe above  a flag or their nation hoods. Doesn't change the fact that it is a double edged sword that can be said about anywhere, place, time or person.

Lameese