General Discussion - Hatred within the Abrahamic faiths

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Hatred within the Abrahamic faiths

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Topic: Hatred within the Abrahamic faiths

Posted By: Israfil
Subject: Hatred within the Abrahamic faiths
Date Posted: 07 July 2008 at 1:37pm

I'm sure any rational moderator who has taken the time to actually read some of the posts can understand that there is some underline hatred for people of other Abrahamic faiths. I myself, while reading this try to combat this mentality with the occasional clichesque speech of "we worship the same God" routine, but of course, with failure it doesn't work. Many times individuals here say "well I don't hate Jews I hate Zionist" of course we try to distinguish the fanatics among the Judaic world from those who are peace loving.

Indeed there are many Jews who wish to have peace and there are many Jews who side with Muslims on the political aspect of their beliefs, but essentially deep down they still feel like they belong there at least spiritually if not geographically. Similarly with christians I see Muslims constantly and constantly try to disprove a book most say they don't believe in or think its false. If disbelief in the biblical doctrine is apart of our theological faith then why try to argue against the bible with such vigor and fanaticism as we do? this leads me to believe that unconsciously we believe in some of what the bible says. So which is it? Is it black and white? Is it tainted and untainted? Or is some of the word tainted while other words remain?

It's difficult to dispel truth from falsity in such situations especially if, in the doctrines original language we cannot comprehend because of our own limited understanding of the language. Paradoxically when visitors here criticize the Qur'an our greatest argument is to point towards the qur'an original language, yet we don't give the same accord to the Bible. Why is that? Are we that biased that we cannot look at the Bible's original language? On this website alone more people seem to know more about the bible than do Judaism yet some of us call Judaism a false religion because the "Qur'an said so." Yet, in a personal challenge to everone here has anyone taken the time to read Mish'nah torah? or the Talmud or any Rabbinical source that is not on a Muslim biased source but an actual Jewish source?

Has anyone read any Aramaic-biblical text? Or the gnostic scriptures? My guess is no, yet if you go to the inter-faith section you'll find many threads on disputing christian claims which in my opinion are just disputes based off websites. I guess I'm wondering where the underline hatred is coming from because it is hatred and if not hatred it is a deep seated dislike for another religion. If you want proof just go to the inter-faith section which in my opinion is a joke.

Replies:

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 07 July 2008 at 2:05pm

Well.. i tend to find the inter-faith section to go round and around and around. Honestly not sure how far one can do inter-faith over the internet on a forum board myself.

I guess the question is are any of the Muslims listening? I think that if you are raised Muslim one's reaction is different. For me, my family and friends are of all different faiths.

I would not say it is dislike (though I am personally not fond of Evangelica Christians but that is personal) as much as it is not understanding how to create and sustain an inter-faith dialogue.

Somwtimes it is listening and hearing what people ar saying. That people have different faiths and find it central to their lives. Just as some Muslimns do. The people who do come, minus the ones who pop up and are out to attack Islam. Most people come in good will. And Israfil you are talking about building the bridges.

I agree that some people don't know how to effectively respond and communicate. The inter-faith section is alot about I post this sura or hadith and someone else pulls something from the Bible. And back and forth it goes.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 07 July 2008 at 7:27pm

Salaams:
I agree with you br Isafril, and have decided to stay away from the Interfaith section. I just wish they would stop overflowing into the other areas. I have found myself being "naughty" and since I come from an interfaith multicultural background I will just let them keep going at it and maybe they will go away and target someone else.
Thanks for being a support when all else fails LOL

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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 07 July 2008 at 7:41pm

There should be no hatred at all. The message should be passed with love and then left at that. Whether one believes it or not is not any one's concern.

Also if every one will present the good things of their own faith and not present any bad things about the others faith, it could help to normalise the relations.

Also when some one tries to deny the truth of the others faith and tries to use some argument (attacking the other's faith) then it should be remembered that the same (weakness, fault) should not be found in his own faith. I give an example: WE Muslims believe that angel Gabriel revealed Quran ( passed messages) to Muhammad.

The christians say that it was not an angel but it was Satan or the devil and not the angel. But we see that angels have been active in bible NT visiting some people like Joseph the carpentar and others too.

There are problems such as these. The three religions from the one father (Abraham) i.e. Judaism, Christianity and Islam should work together in promoting their faith and spiritualism thus bringing people closer to God. There are many good things in all the three religions. This world needs some good lessons in peace and love in order to survive.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 6:17am

http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/ - http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/

http://www.peshitta.org/ - http://www.peshitta.org/

New Testament greek interlinear:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm - http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 7:38am

Just this afternoon, I was telling my non-Muslim colleague as to the reson we live. The reason we are here in this world is to find GOD. Most people in this world have some kind of religion that worship a God. In fact, the God that we worship is the same God, whether the worshipper is someone who lives in the middle of the Amazon, a Buddhist, a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim. There could only be ONE CREATOR for the whole universe. We breathe the same air, we drink the same water, we stand on the same earth, then there could only be ONE GOD. The destination of all religion is ONE - TO WORSHIP THIS ONE GOD.

However some religion worship directly to THIS SUPREME BEING, while some religion worship God thru a creation of His. GOD ALMIGHTY in His knowledge knew this and as a Mercy to Mankind, HE sent prophets and scriptures as a guide in finding Him. It is our responsibility no matter what religion we came from, to sift the truth from falsity. After all He created all of us equal. Adeenul 'Aql - religion is Intellect. God gave us brains or intellect to help us in finding the TRuth.

I find that in real life, people who honestly worship a God, are more peace loving than those who have no God. For me, Alhamdulillah, knowing the Truth is such great Joy that I want to share this Joy with the others.

As to the Truth in the Bible, I cannot deny that there are some. After all in the Bible there are words of God, words of a Prophet and words of a historian which makes up the bulk of this book. The words of God and the words of the Prophet that are similar in the Quran can be believed, while those which are not in the Quran should be rejected.

You mentioned about the Bible original language. I wonder whether we do have one that was originally given to Jesus who spoke Aramaic. And u also mentioned that some of us call Judaism a false religion. During the time of Muhammad, there were honest Jews who read the orignal Torah and in the end embraced Islam. However, can we find these kind of Jews in this present world?

As to Judaism, from what I understand they have two kinds of scriptures, the Torah and the Talmud. I have read some verses of the Talmud, and it saddens me that people can believe in some of the racist verses that is in this book. God is universal, He could not created some above the others.

Frankly speaking, yes I did have some hatred, but it is the hatred for the stubborness in refusing to face facts. Other than that, basically, I was just trying to follow Muhammad's advice - Convey from me, even if it is one sentence.

Salam.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 11:02am

Before I say anything I thank ever individual for their response! I definitely encourage all of you to share your views. to be fair and just and if I may, allow me to address everyone individually with my own response:

Hayfa

"i tend to find the inter-faith section to go round and around and around. Honestly not sure how far one can do inter-faith over the internet on a forum board myself. "

I agree. having discourse over the internet is limiting when compared to a forum where everyone is physically present. We are not aware of one's emotions and facial expressions and the individuality that goes along with it.

"I guess the question is are any of the Muslims listening? I think that if you are raised Muslim one's reaction is different. For me, my family and friends are of all different faiths. "

This is another good point you raised Hayfa. We all come from different backgrounds respective to our own cultures. I believe if you are raised in a diverse family (e.g. family upbringing) you are perhaps more "liberal" than one who was raised ina predominant religious environment. This is not to say one is better than the other but when it comes to diverse viewpoints, a person in a "liberal" upbringing perhaps can be more understanding than one who has been raised in a purely religious environment.

"And Israfil you are talking about building the bridges. "

Exactly. In my years of studying the Abrahamic faiths and monotheistic faiths what I find central to all of them is the belief of ONE supreme entity. If I extend this outward central to most popular world religions is the spiritual connectivity, and our behavior in sustaining that spiritual connectivity whether its connection with the world, animals, nature, etc. It is uneffective to tell someone else they are wrong even if (in reality) they are. If I focus on the Muslims specifically some of us (I say us instead of them because I am apart of them and guilty of this as well) say Christians and Jews are wronf for such and such and that remains ineffective.

We make posts on why the Trinity is wrong (something I'm guilty of). this is ineffective. We make post on why Jesus is human and not God (something I'm guilty of). This is ineffective. These posts amount to telling someone they are wrong instead of having a dialogue. There is a difference in telling someone they are wrong and having a dialogue. Regardless if we posts a thousand Biblical verses that defend our views these people, the non-muslims will still be who they are. It is very difficult to convert someone simply by dissecting their faith and explaining how wrong it is.

"I agree that some people don't know how to effectively respond and communicate. The inter-faith section is alot about I post this sura or hadith and someone else pulls something from the Bible. And back and forth it goes."

Agreed. Since majority of us is not certified in explaining religious scholarly works and their meaning it is important that we don't overdo the massive copy-and-paste posting of Quranic verses and Bible verses. This is ineffective. Who wants to read 8 pages worth of material with no explanation? Many of my bretheren Muslims here are guilty of that. I remember printing out a response made by a brother here (whose name I won't reveal) adn it came out to 28 pages! with no interpretation of what the Hadiths mean. We cannot simply post Qur'an and Hadith and expect non-muslims to understand without an explanation otherwise there is no point in having them come here to discuss! This is why I state my opinions more than proseltyze with the Qur'an and if I do make a statement reagrding Islamic source I'd rather give an Islamic source I trust to that person than simply post a Quranic verse or Hadith and expect them to understand.

Mariyah

"I agree with you br Isafril, and have decided to stay away from the Interfaith section. I just wish they would stop overflowing into the other areas. I have found myself being "naughty" and since I come from an interfaith multicultural background I will just let them keep going at it and maybe they will go away and target someone else.
Thanks for being a support when all else fails "

No. Thank You and thank God the Creator! I will follow you and stay away myself even though it maybe hard. I mistakenly thought a harmless discussion on Angels would kind of balance things out there but it hasn't. I guess this thread is the result of my frustration on the redundancy of threads concerning Christian theology.

Minuteman

"There should be no hatred at all. The message should be passed with love and then left at that. Whether one believes it or not is not any one's concern."

This is theoretical. I agree that despite the difference of belifes it is nobody's concern but WE make it our concern because this is a religious website. People come here and express their views so we can't help make it our concern. Also, I agree that there shouldn't be hatred at all, but when we make comments about Jews and Christians what does that say about us?

"Also if every one will present the good things of their own faith and not present any bad things about the others faith, it could help to normalise the relations."

Again this is theoretical, which I agree, but not always realistic. If you look at the inter-faith section you'll see what I mean.

"Also when some one tries to deny the truth of the others faith and tries to use some argument (attacking the other's faith) then it should be remembered that the same (weakness, fault) should not be found in his own faith. I give an example: WE Muslims believe that angel Gabriel revealed Quran ( passed messages) to Muhammad."

Ok. But you must realize Muslims do this too! This is exactly my point. We say Christians are wrong by pointing to the Qur'an and Christians say we are wrong by pointing to the Bible. These arguments are ineffective because we are arguing from sources the the other doesn't believe in. we say Gabriel revealed the truth of Muhammad but minuteman, our idea of truth may not be agreed upon by others of different faiths. Everyone even if you tell them in a convincing way will not always accept our understanding of "truth." What we must do is understand where the other comes from and have discourse instead of telling them that they are wrong for not accepting our truth.

I agree.

Believer

Unfortunately your post was just links instead of an opinion. Your links are not helpful here.

Nur_Ilahi

I agree and disagree with this paragraph. I agree that most people on this planet has some sort of belief in an spiritual entity. I disagree that everyone believes its God. Most people on the planet believe in a singular entity be it God, YHVH, Ahzura Mazda, Allah, etc. But regarding your comment on Buddisht the original teachings of Sidhartha (Buddha) are atheistic in nature (because Buddha thought belief in a higher power was associated with "suffering" apart of his teachings in the Noble Path). Buddhist that have a spiritual faith are apart of the unorthodoxy that came after his death-similar to the schims in Islam after the prophet's death.

"I find that in real life, people who honestly worship a God, are more peace loving than those who have no God. For me, Alhamdulillah, knowing the Truth is such great Joy that I want to share this Joy with the others."

Well, this is your truth. I've come to find in my life that it is the opposite. I've experienced, through media, and other outlets fantical religionist bomb abortion clinics killing doctors, physicians, and innocent people. I've seen religionist bomb themselves killing themselves and others. I've seen religionist kill in the name of their god, both in contemporary times and historical-need I refer to the Middle Ages? Some of the Muslim dynasties in the middle were not always glorious. We have a dark past ourselves. We jhave been colonizers and oppressors ourselves. Of course, many of us are in denial but it is true. do any of you think the expansion of the Arabs from Arabia westward into Africa was all peaceful? Or the Osman dynasty was all glorious and pious?

"You mentioned about the Bible original language. I wonder whether we do have one that was originally given to Jesus who spoke Aramaic. And u also mentioned that some of us call Judaism a false religion. During the time of Muhammad, there were honest Jews who read the orignal Torah and in the end embraced Islam. However, can we find these kind of Jews in this present world?"

This is my point. It seems in the context of your statement, you call Jews "honest" when they read the Qur'an and eventually embrace Islam and question the existence of such Jews today. What about Jews who may not embrace Islam are they less honest? With respect to your comment on the bible and the original message given to Jesus we may not know whether the original message exists or not. When God in the Qur'an talks about giving Jesus the Injeel I believe this is metaphorical. The "word" is perhaps internal, a spiritual message a sort of metaphysical knowledge materialized on pieces of paper lost in time. What if Jesus didn't have anything or a book? What if its the central messages he gave to the Jews in his time that was lost and not an actual book? We don't know. Jews who read the Torah and follow it are honest. Jews who don't convert to Islam but respect humans and treat humans with dignioty are honest, and humane. In my opinion one doesn't need to be Muslim to be honest and worthy of God's blessings. This is revealed in the Qur'an. We need to de-emphasize our superiority over others because it is ineffective in communicating and having dialogue.

We have God's word yes, but so do the Jews, christians, Sikhs, Hindus (believe it or not they are a paradoxically a monotheistic faith if you study it) and many other worldly faiths.

Well, I commend you for at least being honest, but you OUGHT to not have hatred. The truth you have is something YOU believe in and cannot force others to believe as you do. If God wants to violate their freewill and make them believe as you do he would do so. Rather, focus on your own imperfections and gather yourself so that you come correct for God. This not only goes for you but myself included, as well as others here.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 2:00pm

Actually the more I think about it, we'd be better to come together doing community clean-ups of the environment. At least we can accomplish something while we get to know each other..

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 8:05pm

The first time I went to a mosque was just out of curiosity. I had not plans to convert. I just called the Iman and told him I would like to sit in on Friday prayers and learn something about Islam. He was very nice and welcoming. I sat with the women during the prayers and then several leading men in the mosque sat with me and explained the differences between Christianity and Islam. They never once told me I was wrong in my beliefs. They constantly told me that Islam is not for everyone and that it is up to me to study it and find what is right for me. I never once felt I had to be defensive. They were very open to hearing my thoughts and answering my questions. It is the number one reason I continued to study Islam and thank God later chose to revert to Islam.

Since that time, i try to do my best to never put a non-muslim on the defensive. I remember my own lessons and try to never make them feel threatened and to always respect their thoughts while still being able to express mine.

Very nice post Israfil. I really enjoyed reading your point of view and agree with you on a lot of what you said.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 8:25am

There are no doubt many Jews who are honest in character generally, like the editor of this website that I like to visit http://www.savethemales.ca/ - http://www.savethemales.ca/ . However, where spirituality is concerned, only God knows how sincere we are. Finding God is not a simple task. You need purity of the soul, honesty and sincerity. And knowledge is also very important. I mean knowledge of your own religion and the others too. From there we should be using our �aql to sift the truth from falsity. No one can measure someone�s honesty except oneself. Only God knows whether we are sincere or not.

With respect to your comment on the bible and the original message given to Jesus we may not know whether the original message exists or not. When God in the Qur'an talks about giving Jesus the Injeel I believe this is metaphorical. The "word" is perhaps internal, a spiritual message a sort of metaphysical knowledge materialized on pieces of paper lost in time. What if Jesus didn't have anything or a book?

Israfil, there is no such thing as as if in Islam. The 6 pillars of Iman has already clearly stated that one of the requirement of a Believer is the belief in Kitabullah � the Books of Allah as guidance to humankind, Namely

1) The Tawrah given to Musa (alayhis salam)

2) The Zabur given to Dawud (alayhis salam)

3) The Injeel given to 'Isa (alayhis salam)

4) and the Qur'an given to Muhammad (salAllahu alayhi wasalam)

I had always wondered why Allah let the books be lost. If He wanted to preserve it , He could have done so. It is because He had Quran in mind which He guaranteed to protect forever.

What if its the central messages he gave to the Jews in his time that was lost and not an actual book? We don't know. Jews who read the Torah and follow it are honest. Jews who don't convert to Islam but respect humans and treat humans with dignioty are honest, and humane.

Yes, I do agree with that. There are more good people than bad in this world. However, have you ever wondered why the Jews were disliked by people from time immemorial?

In my opinion one doesn't need to be Muslim to be honest and worthy of God's blessings. This is revealed in the Qur'an. We need to de-emphasize our superiority over others because it is ineffective in communicating and having dialogue.

I am not emphasizing our superiority. No one is more superior than the other. But where religion is concerned, I am emphasizing that ISLAM is SUPERIOR AND ISLAM IS THE CHOSEN RELIGION OF GOD ALMIGHTY as stated in the Quran. - This Day, I have perfected your Law /DEEN for you, completed My favor upon you, and chosen for you Al-Islam as the System of Life. � 5:3.

We have God's word yes, but so do the Jews, christians, Sikhs, Hindus (believe it or not they are a paradoxically a monotheistic faith if you study it) and many other worldly faiths.

Ever wonder why is the first word that God sent to Muhammad was IQRA! meaning Read! � It means that we have to read, gain knowledge, learn, study. Ilm or knowledge is very important especially Ilm Tauhid � The Oneness of God. We Muslims are really very blessed that we are born a Muslim or had found Islam. When comparing other religion with my religion, how many times I had praised Allah � Alhamdulillah wa Subhanallah � Praise to Allah and Glory be to Allah � for creating me a Muslim. The beauty and truth of Islam is incomparable with other religion.

Indeed we are not perfect. Even Muhammad in his perfection recite Astaghfirullah (I seek forgiveness from Allah) at least 100 times daily. More so with us who sinned purposely and unpurposely. We should recite Astaghfirullah more than Habibullah himself.

As I said before, I did not hate the Ruh or spirit of of the person. It is the Shaitan and the Nafs that is within, who are always negating the Truth.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 1:25pm

Only God knows whether we are sincere or not.

I agree here but you missed the 'spirit' of my comment prior to you saying this. I suggest re-reading my comment and addressing what I mentioned.

I know what they are but again, re-read my comment and read what I was specifically addressing. specifically, I was addressing your question: I wonder whether we do have one that was originally given to Jesus who spoke Aramaic. Thus I responded appropriately with the theoretical statement of the "what if." I'm well aware of the "books" God has given his prophets, no need to re-list them I haven't forgotten.

have you ever wondered why the Jews were disliked by people from time immemorial?

According to various scriptural traditions, Jews were a persecuted people. Of course, since that time some have transgressed the laws Moses, with God's instructions have set for them. However, I cannot challenge the humanity of an entire people simply looking at Quranic doctrine. We cannot say all Jews because of what such and such did they all suffered even the good ones. To think such would contradict the Islamic understanding of original sin-thus i believe those who transgressed, God punished them fairly separating them from those who did not. It would be unrealistic and historically inaccurate to make such claims.

Do you know there are many other faiths whose doctrines espouse God instructing his followers to gain knowledge? I won't even mentioned the instructions laid down by Guru Nanak in Sikhism, but in Judaism alone there are many Rabbinical teachings which derive from Biblical doctrine that instruct followers to contemplate, some do so in extreme conditions by being in solitude for YEARS! all because one is yearning for more knowledge.

Even Muhammad in his perfection.

Who says Muhammad was perfect? He was a mortal, a human, an entity of flesh and blood. Perfection belongs to God not prophets no matter how enlighten they are.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 5:51am

Hatred within the......

The motto of all religions is Islam. The Quran tells us that all religions from him were Islam. Islam was not brought by our prophet Muhammad only. Every revealed religion is Islam and the active believers in all religions were called Muslimeen. This name was given to us and to earlier faiths by Allah.

The Hindus and the Jews and the Christians and people of other faiths benefit from the attibute Rabb, Rahman and Raheem because they are believers and because they pray to God. Even atheists (and animals) benefit from the attributes Rabb and Al-Rehman.

Having said that, may I draw the attention of friends to the verse 2:62 of Al-Quran. I will just describe the meaning. It states:

The believers (meaning those who believe in the prophet Muhammad) and those who are Jews and those who are Christians and people of other faiths, whoever believed in Allah and the last day, and did befitting deeds, for them is their reward from their Lord. So there will be no fear for them (for their future) nor will they be sorry for anything of the past.

Dear friends, this verse speaks about all believing, well working, peaceful people. That they have no fear and no harm. Ourselves (Muslims) are included in that promise of Allah. It is necessary to be a believer in God and to do good deeds (means to be peaceful person, not abusive and full of hatred). I hope there is a message in that verse for all of us and it is the message of peace.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 5:37am

"With respect to your comment on the bible and the original message given to Jesus we may not know whether the original message exists or not. When God in the Qur'an talks about giving Jesus the Injeel I believe this is metaphorical. The "word" is perhaps internal, a spiritual message a sort of metaphysical knowledge materialized on pieces of paper lost in time. What if Jesus didn't have anything or a book?

The links I provided are links to the original Holy Scripture in Jesus' native language and Greek. Greek was the common language at the time even though Aramaic was their native.

LOL!! Mohammad didn't have a book written in his own hand. The scribes wrote it!!

If the BOOK of the Christians and Jews mentioned in the Quran were just thoughts and not a writen book, isn't there another arabic word that should have been used?

You know that can not be the case because the BOOK that Mohammad talks about existed way before Mohammad came around.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 6:34am

However, I cannot challenge the humanity of an entire people simply looking at Quranic doctrine

According to this website http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Believe-in-Allah/jewish_bible_or_quran_anti-semitic.htm - http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Believe-in-Allah/jewish_bible_or_quran_anti-semitic.htm there are more anti-Semitism in the Jewish Bible than in the Quran and the Gospel combined. The Fact is, Jews in the Quran were spoken highly of and called the best of people.

We cannot say all Jews because of what such and such did they all suffered even the good ones � The sufferings of the Jews were more fictitious than true. For example the holocaust. It was a plan of the Zionist to export Jews into Palestine their long-awaited dream. Anyway, from what I understand the top wealthy people in USA were Jews. For these wealthy people, I doubt they understand the meaning of sufferings.

Actually, in real life, I have never met a Jew before. I only read about them, whether it be in the Quran, in history, from their scriptures or in the internet. From these sources I can easily deduce that, the Jews were mostly arrogant due to their belief that they were the chosen people of God. A God who is Ar-Rahman and Ar-Raheem will never ever create one tribe better than the other. A God who is Al-Adl will be fair and just to each and everyone of His servants except of course the prophets and messengers of Allah. Of course there are exceptions where there are honest Jews who basically believe in the equality of men instead of considering goyims as animals. Like Henry Makow of http://www.savethemales.ca/ - http://www.savethemales.ca/ .

I have no doubt you are right, however the responsibility of an honest and sincere seeker of God is to compare which is the best and most compatible with the �aql that God had given us. That is not an easy task right?

Who says Muhammad was perfect? He was a mortal, a human, an entity of flesh and blood. Perfection belongs to God not prophets no matter how enlighten they are.

INDEED PERFECTION BELONGS TO GOD. But I believe that it is not impossible for an AlMighty God to create a perfect human being as an example for human kind. Do you?

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 6:36am

Yes, believer the book existed and I feel that it is the same book that you have in your hands now. That is by the report of the Quran. But please rememebr that it is the Quran which is telling us that the book has been altered.

It is also told to us by Allah (through the Quran) that the christians ( and may be Jews too) made the mistake of taking other Lords beside God. That is what spoiled their book. We have nothing against your book. You can have it, read it and work according to it.

In fact, it is written in the Quran that if the Jews and the christians acted upon their books, they would benefit.

We have believed in Jesus because Quran says so. WE believe in Jesus and I am sure, there is not any bad word agianst Jesus or his mother or his disciples in the Quran. So, we love Jesus and his mother and his friends. The mother of Jesus is given a very high status in the Quran. All true believers are likened unto her. She is the model of excellence.

So I hope the matter of the book should be setteled now. There is no other book. It is the same book that you have now but it is no more the same as taught by Jesus. I hope you will think over those things. Such things happen.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 6:46am

Hi Minuteman,

Before Islam, the religion that were brought by all the prophets before Muhammad was At-Tauhid. The Oneness of God.

Only when the Quran was sent to the Last Messenger with all the laws and systemsthat Allah declare - This Day, I have perfected your Law /DEEN for you, completed My favor upon you, and chosen for you Al-Islam as the System of Life. 5.3

Salam.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 6:53am

You know that can not be the case because the BOOK that Mohammad talks about existed way before Mohammad came around.

Just a reminder to you my dear Believer, Muhammad was an illiterate man. Meaning he did not know how to read or write. All the knowledge that he got was directly from God via the Archangel Jibrail.

And in the Bible, Christianity was not even mentioned by God, and the Bible was also not mentioned. These names were given by the historians who wrote this book, not by God.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 12:52pm

Where does the Quran tell us that the Holy Scriptures hae been altered?

Are you saying that Allah failed to guard his Holy Word, the Gospel?!?

The word Bible means the BOOK!!

We don't actually know for sure if Mohammad was illiterate how could he manage his business? Why does Allah tell him to read?

LOL!! OK Mohammad is iliterate!! How do you know the scribes wrote down the correct things? There is a hadith that talks about Mohammad was tricked!!

GOD's WORD was in the presence of the desciples in Christ. Under GOD's authority Jesus spoke exactly what GOD wanted Jesus to say to the desciples that were literate and did write directly instead of going through a third person the scribes.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 8:36pm

Hi believer of Christianity, a religion which was not named in the Bible,

For once, I want to be lazy and use copy and paste method like what Robin loves to do.

Where does the Quran tell us that the Holy Scriptures hae been altered?

The Noble Qur'an (the Muslims' Holy Scripture) confirms this with the words:

Then woe to those who write the book (of Allah/God) with their own hands and then say: 'This is from Allah', to traffic with it for a miserable price. Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby (The Noble Quran, 2:79)"

Are you saying that Allah failed to guard his Holy Word, the Gospel?!?

Not at all my dear Believer. Read this from the same website.

What were all of the Popes afraid of? What was the Vatican as a whole afraid of? Why was the concept of releasing the text of their most ancient copy of the Bible to the general public so terrifying to them? Why did they feel it necessary to bury the most ancient copies of the inspired word of God in a dark corner of the Vatican never to be seen by outside eyes? Why? What about all of the thousands upon thousands of other manuscripts which to this day remain buried in the darkest depths of the Vatican vaults never to be seen or studied by the general masses of Christendom?

The word Bible means the BOOK!!

Yes. My son�s Harry Potter novel is also called a BOOK.

We don't actually know for sure if Mohammad was illiterate how could he manage his business?

Perhaps you forgot that at that time there no computers and keyboards and calculators. He managed his business very simply. With sincerity and honesty and intelligence. Three very important character that is hard to find in any businessman. And furthermore, all prophets were equipped by God AlMighty with the characters of siddiq (honest) amanah (trustable) fathonah (intelligent) and tabligh (the gift to convey/pass on/communicate).

Why does Allah tell him to read?

The first word that Allah sent to Muhammad was �Iqra!� which can mean read or recite. In this case as we know that he was illiterate, Jibril requested him to recite or follow what Jibril said. When Muhammad was commanded to read, he said, I do not know how to read.

LOL!! OK Mohammad is iliterate!! How do you know the scribes wrote down the correct things? There is a hadith that talks about Mohammad was tricked!!

A Prophet of God was also equipped with a good memory. And Muhammad was always protected by God AlMighty from the weaknesses of normal human being like forgetfulness. Muhammad being tricked? � perhaps you should show us which hadith you meant.

Reference - http://www.answering-christianity.com/sake.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/sake.htm

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 8:39pm

believer wrote:

Pardon me for my laziness this time.

There are 67 reasons why the Bible is not an inspired word of God.

I copy paste only 10 of them and the rest you should read yourself here - http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/inspiration_of_bible.html - http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/inspiration_of_bible.html

A FEW REASONS FOR DOUBTING THE INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE.

THE Old Testament must have been written nearly two thousand years before the invention of Printing. There were but few copies, and these were in the keeping of those whose interest might have prompted interpolations, and whose ignorance might have led to mistakes.

Second. The written Hebrew was composed entirely of consonants, without any points or marks standing for vowels, so that anything like accuracy was impossible, Anyone can test this for himself by writing an English sentence, leaving out the vowels. It will take far more inspiration to read than to write a book with consonants alone.

Third. The books composing the Old Testament were not divided into chapters or verses, and no system of punctuation was known. Think of this a moment and you will see how difficult it must be to read such a book.

Fourth. There was not among the Jews any dictionary of their language, and for this reason the accurate meaning of words could not be preserved. Now the different meanings of words are preserved so that by knowing the age in which a writer lived we can ascertain with reasonable certainty his meaning.

Fifth. The Old Testament was printed for the first time in 1488. Until this date it existed only in manuscript, and was constantly exposed to erasures and additions.

Sixth. It is now admitted by the most learned in the Hebrew language that in our present English version of the Old Testament there are at least one hundred thousand errors. Of course the believers in inspiration assert that these errors are not sufficient in number to cast the least suspicious upon any passages upholding what are called the fundamentals."

Seventh. It is not certainly known who in fact wrote any of the books of the Old Testament. For instance, it is now generally conceded that Moses was not the author of the Pentateuch.

Eighth. Other books, not now in existence, are referred to in the Old Testament as of equal authority, such as the books of Jasher, Nathan, Ahijah, Iddo, Jehu, Sayings of the Seers.

Ninth. The Christians are not agreed among themselves as to what books are inspired. The Catholics claim as inspired the books of Maccabees, Tobit, Esdras, etc. Others doubt the inspiration of Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon.

Tenth. In the book of Esther and the Song of Solomon the name of God is not mentioned, and no reference is made to any supreme being, nor to any religions duty. these omissions would seem sufficient to cast a little doubt upon these books.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 9:27pm

Nur Ilahi has given good response. We see that the number of books with protestants is not the same as it is with the catholics. The books of Catholics are more. That means some of them are considered apocrypha by the Protestants?? Yes or No??

The arguments of believer are not fair about Muhammad, that he was illiterate then how he carried out his business. It is laughable and seems to be catching at a straw. There are many persons who are not educated even now. But they are doing their daily work / busness.

I give two examples. For instance Muhammad used to herd Camels and goats. What education he needed for that? Also, about Joseph the carpentar, the father of Jesus, was he educated to do his carpentary?

Another excuse by believer: As Muhammad was not educated, he told the sribes to write down the revelation. Because he was not able to read or write then how did Muhammad know that the scribe wrote the right thing?

This is another weak argument, in fact no argument at all. Muhammad could ask the srcibe to read out exactly what he had written and he could check if it was written correctly. He could have it read by another educated person and check whether it was correct. There were many scribes with him

Also Quranic verses were being recited during prayer from the very first day. Every one could know what was correct. Nothing wrong could get into the Quran. Believer should please consider all these things.

Bible was never recited during any prayer. Jesus never told any scribe to write down anything. He had no scribes with him. He himself was the teacher, roaming around in the area. In the gospels, i.e. Jesus biography, we do not see anything to indicate that he told any one to write down anything about Injeel. So what can we do about it? Believe his biography?

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 9:34pm

The resulting comments made by Believer and some that followed after are prime examples of the hatred I was referring to. Believer, the links I was referring to were also the very links I said were not helpful. This thread is about getting to the root on why there is deep seeded hatred, not post links. Believer in the past, I've seen you plagerise your sources so please, since you have shown the inability to write your own work please do not respond here if you have nothing constructive to say. The comment I made regarding whether or not Jesus had a book was theoretical, meaning, that is not to say I believe he didn't or did have abook. Of course I believe there was a doctrine, but I also believe since Jesus was a Rabbi, he continued the oral traditions of the Torah as well (in addition to having the injeel).

I believe what minuteman wrote regarding Surah 2:62 is essential. We all know majority of the planet believes in some sort of higher power-this is evident in the many faiths that are on our planet.

Nur_Ilahi you said:

The sufferings of the Jews were more fictitious than true.

So I guess the gase chambers and death camps suddenly appeared out of nowhere? I guess the gypsies, Africans, African-Americans, and gays along with Jews at these death camps were fictious themselves? Your comment in the above green is ignorance manifest. Should I seriously refute thqat comment you made? Or were you just pissed off when you wrote it? Because it's a ridiculous statement to make.

For example the holocaust. It was a plan of the Zionist to export Jews into Palestine their long-awaited dream. Anyway, from what I understand the top wealthy people in USA were Jews. For these wealthy people, I doubt they understand the meaning of sufferings.

Can you please provide references instead of anecdotal sayings? You sound like an extremist with an conspiracy theorist mentality. There were no-jews who suffered at these camps. Hitler in his book Mein Kampf hated Jews. It is recorded that in his own words were the Jews were during his rule and it was in his own words what he did to them. If you don't believe the evidence provided by Jews and secular historians read the protagonist writings of Hitler for God's sake!

Of course there are exceptions where there are honest Jews who basically believe in the equality of men instead of considering goyims as animals.

I have studied Moses Maimonides work for years during my time getting my masters in Philosophy. I'd like to know from your infinite knowledge on Jews where Jews get this idea of "Chosen One." I want to see Rabbinical teachings and scholarly work not some online website. Anyone can write anything on a freggin website but the challenge for you is to find facts in what you say. find scholarly works in Judaism where this is evident. I want Rabbi names, scholarly journals to look at etc.

INDEED PERFECTION BELONGS TO GOD. But I believe that it is not impossible for an AlMighty God to create a perfect human being as an example for human kind. Do you?

Ok. If such is possible then isn't it possible for God to divide himself into multiple deities?

Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 10:55pm

Israfil wrote:

Ok. If such is possible then isn't it possible for God to divide himself into multiple deities?

The proper belief in Allah is to believe in how Allah has described himself in His Book (Qur'an) and on the tongue of His Messenger (pbuh), thus it is not upon us speculate concerning whether or not Allah is able to "divide himself into multiple deities" wana'oothu billaahi.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 7:17am

What you should be asking is -Are the minimum number of Books used by the Protestants the same used by Catholic-YES.

You know how crazy Muslims get when a cartoon of Mohammad is made!? Mohammad is just a prophet. You cut down our GOD and His Holy WORD! Muslims say GOD is incapable of protecting His HOLY WORD!

You don't even realize how disrespectful and extremely hateful your comments are to us. WHY is it disrespectful and extremely hateful? You are talking about the HOLY BIBLE, GOD's WORD. Your comments on Jesus, GOD's WORD made flesh are even more disturbing. Can you understand that?

"thread is about getting to the root on why there is deep seeded hatred, not post links. Believer in the past, I've seen you plagerise your sources so please, ..."

You say I plagerise - please point out the cases.

LOL!! Now you are making accusations. I consider that a very hateful statement. I have always linked to a site that I copy and paste from, if I forgot then I apologize, but call me on it at the moment and I will add the link.

Sorry if Christians agree and have the same thoughts on a subject LOL!! Even with all the differeant denominations together we make up the One True Church.

Will Muslims ever understand that even though our hearts are crying when Muslims speak of Jesus and the Biible is such an evil way, we follow Jesus in turning the other check. We can not riot we must try and teach you what we believe and how you must treat Jesus and our Holy Scripture.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 7:51am

002.079
YUSUFALI: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
PICKTHAL: Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
SHAKIR: Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Have you ever heard of the Apocrypha? Mohammad more then likely referring to these. Or was Mohammad referring to the Quran? When was this verse written- it could be when He found out about false writings of the Qursn by the Jewish scribes. What was the name of the Jewish scribe that said he had influenced everything Mohammad revealed?

There were also false books written.

Because GOD protects His WORD there were many copies of the correct Books being sent back and forth to churches so it was obvious when a false Book was written.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59am

You find it so insulting when muslims point out where they disagree with your religion and yet you continuously insult the Islamic faith. Isn't this kind of hypocritical?

I was a Christian for the first 26 years of my life and I never went out and purposely insulted other religions that I didn't believe in. My whole family is Christian and they don't do that to me now that I am muslim. I have several family members that are pastors of churches and you know they even let me do my muslim prayers in their home!!! Why, because they are good Christians that don't force religion down my throat. They respect me for my beliefs even if they don't approve. They don't go out of their way to find muslims and then insult important parts of their religion. At least the muslims on this forum gave you their agruments in a mature manner quoting sources and being patient with you. You have gone on and on putting down Islam and insulting important parts of it. What do you think that says about you?

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 2:10pm

abuayisha wrote:

Israfil wrote:

Ok. If such is possible then isn't it possible for God to divide himself into multiple deities?

Were you even cognizant of why I made that statement? Perfection is an attribute only God has. When God said "Muhammad is the best of examples" he didn't attribute perfection, he gave him a title. God made Muhammad the prophet an exemplary model for fellow believers. when Muslims begin to make him into a perfect human being we are saying he no more a lesser deity, like us humans rather, godly, for perfection is a godly attribute.

If we are going to say God can make humans perfect (which I'm sure he can) then we cannot argue that God cannot divide himself into other deities. So if its possible for one then its possible for the other. My point here is to refute the claim that Muhammad the prophet is perfect. Muhammad's illiteracy alone shows his imperfection. The inability to read. His divinely mandated recitation of the Qur'an was by God's influence not of his own. Any so-called perfect prophet would not need divine influence to recite something he didn't know about or need assistance to read or needed scribes. This was my point. If we maintain Muhammd's humanity, the greater his message. Because we can say a simple human being was a messenger of the greatest known deity ever in the universe, that is God the Creator.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 2:39pm

Israfil, I agree with you. I have had this arguments with Muslims. I was in Pakistan and i was receiving my "lecture" (some people like to lecture you as a newer Muslim rather than ask you fist what you know). They sid Mohammed (PBUH) was perfect. I said is not Allah perfect? And how can can Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) than be perfect.. and its like well... uh..oh.. You can tell me he is free from major sins.. but perfect.. well..

It may come an issue of how people are using perfect...

Nur, I am not sure how much you can say if you have never met a Jewish person before. My sister-in-law is Jewish. I have good friends who are Jewish. That is like me saying that Hindus are x, y and z.. and well don't relaly know any. Thus you re dealing with stereotypes as well as allowing others doing the evaluation for you. There are several million Jewish people in the world.

I'v had people, who are Muslims say Pakistanis are x, y and z. And they don't open their mind ups to judge a person as an individual not the sole representitve of that group.

And i agree with Israfil.. you need to get out of the books and travel a bit more.. cause 12 million people died in the holocaust, not just Jewish people. Over 50 million people in the world died in WWII around the world. And yes many victims were Jewish people.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

I think humanity will never get beyond our own limitations because we bicker over the ireelevant things of life. God is unchanging, yet we argue over God's nature. In the movie 'the message" I remember what the Christian Abyssian king said the followers of the prophet: "the differences between you and I are no different than this line (unable to illustrate)." Islam is about one God Qul'hu Allahu Ahad.

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there.

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks about

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks about the

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks about the compassion

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks about the compassion of

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:59pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks about the compassion of Christ

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 9:00pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks about the compassion of Christ exercises

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 9:00pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks about the compassion of Christ exercises quite

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 9:00pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks about the compassion of Christ exercises quite the

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 9:00pm

Christianity and Judaism is about One God ruler over the cosmos. I think we should start there. Unfortunately individuals like believer who talks about the compassion of Christ exercises quite the opposite

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 9:00pm

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 9:17pm

Well, I for one got your point, Israfil, many times over

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 1:00am

Israfil, first and foremost I would like to quote you -

Ok. If such is possible then isn't it possible for God to divide himself into multiple deities?

And I will repeat what abuaysha said � Na�uzubillahiminzalik. And I will add � Astaghfirullahiliyil adzeem.

How many times does a practicing Muslim recite Lailahailallah per day at least? Perhaps you can answer that. And if a Muslim really understands this declaration of Tauhid, he or she would never ever has the above quotation in mind worse still in utterance.

The sufferings of the Jews were more fictitious than true.

So I guess the gase chambers and death camps suddenly appeared out of nowhere? I guess the gypsies, Africans, African-Americans, and gays along with Jews at these death camps were fictious themselves?

Alright. I should have said � the sufferings of the Jews were no less than all the others in the world war II. It was true what all the others whether it be German, Russians or any other citizens of the world. However to give a figure of 6 million Jews suffering is blatantly fictitious. �According to the estimates for 2007 of the Jewish People Policy Planning Institute, the world population of Jews is 13.2 million. [1]Adherents.com cites figures ranging from 12.8 million to 18.2 million Jews.[2]� http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population . If these estimates were to be used, it meant that during WWII half of the Jews died? To me that is impossible. I had long knew that the holocaust were a fraud. And interestingly, in Germany, one who denies the Holocaust will be silenced and put to jail. Very strange indeed!

RECENTLY RELEASED RECORDS, SEALED FOR YEARS, SHOW �CONCENTRATION CAMP� DEATH TOTALS OF ONLY 271,301

http://ahmedismailibrahim.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/official-records-from-international-red-cross-prove-holocaust-was-a-fraud/ A Factual Appraisal Of The 'Holocaust' By The Red Cross

http://www.rense.com/general69/factua.htm - http://www.rense.com/general69/factua.htm

More Russians died during the world war II, than the Jews, why must be the Jews who should always be prominent in their sufferings? Why must the sufferings of the other citizens be less important? Even here in Asia, millions of Asians died during the WWII. Are Asian lives less valuable then Jewish lives?

I would like to quote Professor Israel Shahak article on WWII (Every Jewish child was taught, and this saved the lives of some of them "if you enter a square from which there are three exits, one guarded by a German SS man, one by an Ukrainian and one by a Jewish policeman, then you should first try to pass the German, and then maybe the Ukrainian, but never the Jew". http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.swiss/browse_thread/thread/eedd17c46e680d3f - http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.swiss/browse_thread/thread/eedd17c46e680d3f .

I had read many Iluminati/New World Order/Free Mason websites, that I lost count to which one to refer to. Actually the Jews are the scapegoats of these Zionists � worshippers of Dajjal. Perhaps you have realized that the Jews control America? http://www.natall.com/who-rules-america/index.html - http://www.natall.com/who-rules-america/index.html

You sound like an extremist with an conspiracy theorist mentality.

Oh oh! This sounds very typical of Zionist shills. But of course I know that you are not! Are we not allowed to believe in conspiracy theorists? I do believe most of these conspiracy theorists. They are like the defence attorney towards the Muslims while the main-stream media which are mainly owned by the Zionist Jews are the Prosecutors. We Muslims had no opportunity to defend ourselves in the mainstream media if not because of Internet.

There were no-jews who suffered at these camps. Hitler in his book Mein Kampf hated Jews. It is recorded that in his own words were the Jews were during his rule and it was in his own words what he did to them. If you don't believe the evidence provided by Jews and secular historians read the protagonist writings of Hitler for God's sake!

My dear Israfil, the WWII were created by the Zionist Jews and Hitler was either knowingly or not knowingly became their scapegoat. I am sure you are familiar with protocols of Zion � Protocol 7 - http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/protocols.htm -

This is juvenile logic! I'm even ashamed to even try to correct you because its obvious you are lost in your own arrogance to even fathom that an entire people is arrogant. For you who have never met a Jew to make such a statement is beyond me! You read books, watch news, read Qur'an (misinterpret its teachings) and can deduce that pitiful logic?

Right, I have never met a Jew in my life. But I do believe there are righteous Torah Jews who are sincere and honest and believe in the ONENESS OF GOD.The reason why most Jews were hated may is due to the teachings that can be found in their Talmud.

So in your same logic Nur_Ilahi someone who has never met a Muslim but only know of Muslims through television and reading the Qur'an and encountering Indians in corner stores can deduce Muslims as a turban-wearing, Allahu Akbar screaming, suicide bombing, religiously fanatical people? Wow.

I am not that st**id Israfil. Those who had these perceptions of Muslims were those who were brainwashed by the evil Zionists who owned the media and to my opinion, their objective is defame and insult Islam so that the general masses will avoid Islam like a plaque. Nothing in the Quran says that you can bomb innocent people and kill people indiscriminately. Those who did that had their own agenda. But then. you can find teachings in the Talmud for example �

8. "To communicate anything to a goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the goyim knew what we teach about them they would kill us openly." -Libbre David 37

10. "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the goyim asks if our books contain anything against them." -Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Via 17

11. "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts..." -Saba Mecia 114, 6

17. "A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do. He may treat her as he treats a piece of meat." -Hadarine, 20, B; Schulchan 9ruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348

And you ask why Jews are hated world wide?

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 1:06am

The perfection of Muhammad was mainly spiritually. In the physical sense he indeed was not. Like being illiterate and poor. But spiritually, he was indeed perfect. In his perfection, he could even meet God AlMighty.

Israfil, you can refute the perfectness of Muhammad, but why must you compare or give examples as God dividing himself into other deities? You may not be aware how grave this error is. It can even arise in others the question of your faith.

Astaghfirullah!

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 5:46am

We may be getting somewhere-

In my asking questions and pointing out issues I disagree with, have I put down Islam? Muslims are not allowed to question traditions and the Quran? Here is where I am coming from:

In Christianity we are taught to question every prophet, every verse, every action and deed. We are to be aware of the false prophet and protect ourselves from them.

Do Muslims consider Jesus infallible in spiritual matters? I have been told by many Muslims that they consider Jesus sinless spiritually and physically. It is very confussing then when a Muslims calls His character into account.

OK Muslims believe that Mohammad is like the Pope infallible in spiritual issues? Christians [protestants] believe that no man, even prophets can be spiritually perfect. Only GOD and His WORD is spiritually perfect.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 6:25am

It is interesting when people ask questions they can be perceived as being judgemental.

I don't know about how Muslims think about Jesus. I would say that many revere him as a greater Prophet (PBUH). But as the written record is so less then information on Prohet Mohammed (PBUH) it is hard to label him in any particular way.

Believer, we too are taught to question.. and really to focus on ourselves.. our hearts and minds. What are our intentions. So it is quite similiar i think.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 6:47am

believer wrote:

We may be getting somewhere-

In my asking questions and pointing out issues I disagree with, have I put down Islam? Muslims are not allowed to question traditions and the Quran? Here is where I am coming from:

In Christianity we are taught to question every prophet, every verse, every action and deed. We are to be aware of the false prophet and protect ourselves from them.

Believer please make it clear which part of post is from you and which part is not from you. I cannot find where you are. Please be clear. Thanks.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 9:10am

Actually, I think the whole thing was his own words. I had to check that myself.

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 9:15am

Believer, in the protestant faith (I don't know about Catholic) it is believed that once a person is saved (they ask Jesus in their hearts) then this person's sins are forgiven and they will automatically go to heaven. That any sin they do after that will be forgiven because they believe Jesus died for all their sins. I have actually had Christians tell me that they were not worried about committing sins anymore since they will go to heaven anyway! Many of these people believe it is perfectly acceptable to commit all the sins you want because you will be forgiven anyway. Do you not see the problem with that idea?

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 9:12pm

Sorry for some reason my computer screwed up and it repeated my post after I sent it

And I will repeat what abuaysha said � Na�uzubillahiminzalik. And I will add � Astaghfirullahiliyil adzeem.

With great effort I was trying to stay on topic and make a point. I was refuting the point that was made here regarding the prophet being perceived as being perfect. I therefore said that perfection is thus a godly attribute, but if Muslims believe Muhammad was perfect (thus elevating his status to being godly-for perfection is a godly attribute) then I'm sure it is quite possible, but, logically implausible that god would divide himself. I was basically refuting an extremity with an extremity. My comment was not about divisions within God. If you know any of my posts it is quite the opposite, but I see you an abuayisha have a hard time with simple logic.

If these estimates were to be used, it meant that during WWII half of the Jews died? To me that is impossible. I had long knew that the holocaust were a fraud. And interestingly, in Germany, one who denies the Holocaust will be silenced and put to jail. Very strange indeed!

I find that, you are strange yourself. you judge an entire group of people with illogical nonsense and you give your reasons by using media, Qur'an and television as your sources of information? with the exception of the Qur'an which I'm sure you have greatly misunderstood, your sources are quite corrupted. To answer your query regarding the estimation of Jewish death toll these estimates (est. 5.29-6.2 million) the current population you mentioned was the CURRENT population as of today, not back then. I'm sure the population of Jews back then was greater than it is today but the estimates regarding Jewish death toll looks at pre and post war casualties. You are comparing current population with the death toll of Jews 62 years ago!

More Russians died during the world war II, than the Jews, why must be the Jews who should always be prominent in their sufferings? Why must the sufferings of the other citizens be less important? Even here in Asia, millions of Asians died during the WWII. Are Asian lives less valuable then Jewish lives?

Nobody is saying Jewish lives are more sacred than anyone else, and if there are people saying it then they are supremists, and not living in reality. The reason it is popularized is because of several factors and one of them is because that is one of the most tragice events ever to be recorded in European/German history. Over 100 million African slaves died during slavery this is in a 1,000-year period or so. Jews received reparations, blacks didn't. Japanese received reparations for being in american controlled concentration camps, blacks didn't. You will always have people being disadvantaged somewhere but nobody here is saying Jewish live are more important. all human lives are important but society ranks importance more so than the people. As far more russians died than Jews under whose statistics are you referring to? Where is your proof?

Oh oh! This sounds very typical of Zionist shills. But of course I know that you are not! Are we not allowed to believe in conspiracy theorists?

Wow, you sound worse than the nation of Islam. The Jews this, the white man this, the jews that. give me a break. Grow up and open your eyes. We live in a world where people have their hand in the cookie jar all the time, does that make you and I a puppet? Perhaps, within the system but I like to feel I'm an autonomous human being who has some control over my destiny and that is, not blaming jews for everything. Nur_Ilahi you are not exercising the rational mindset God has given you and instead choose to live in a blameful world where you point the finger at one group of people. This thinking is the reason why Muslims will not have unity. We blame Jews for pretty much everything. I'm sure its a Jews fault if you go bankrupt or a jews fault if your car is stolen. Oh wait, I'm sure its the Jews fault that the gas prices are so high in America. Hmmm maybe I can blame jews for the reason I can't find a wife....LOL

The reason why most Jews were hated may is due to the teachings that can be found in their Talmud.

Do you even kno one lick of Hebrew? Have you even read the entire Talmud with understanding or clarity? Have you read the Torah or Mish'nah torah? If not don't speak of what you don't know. I'm sure you would extend this suggestion to non-muslims correct?

am not that st**id Israfil. Those who had these perceptions of Muslims were those who were brainwashed by the evil Zionists who owned the media and to my opinion, their objective is defame and insult Islam so that the general masses will avoid Islam like a plaque.

This is extremist rant. The passages you quoted following this statement are the same tatics people use to disprove Islam. I mean for God's sake does anyone see this besides me? You are doing exactly the samething non-Muslims do when they come here to disprove Islam they use doctrines they have no understanding about and say "see! this verse proves your religion is hostile" I mean for God's sake wake up.

The perfection of Muhammad was mainly spiritually. In the physical sense he indeed was not. Like being illiterate and poor. But spiritually, he was indeed perfect. In his perfection, he could even meet God AlMighty.

Israfil, you can refute the perfectness of Muhammad, but why must you compare or give examples as God dividing himself into other deities? You may not be aware how grave this error is. It can even arise in others the question of your faith.

This ios a flawed argument. There was non "face to face" meeting with God for God has no "face" to meet. Muhammad was perhaps in the presence of God, but so was Abraham and Moses. In heaven all are in the presence of God. So spiritually i don't see how this makes Muhammad perfect you need to brush on your reasoning. As for questioning my faith, again like i said I used an extremity with an extremity.

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 10:31pm

Israfil, I understand where you are coming from. I agree some of those theories are extreme. A person doesn't have to agree with the actions of the Jews in order to see the tragedy of the holocaust. Yes, many people outside of the Jews died, but the Jewish were then only ones singly hunted down because of their religion and ancestry. It was genocide. For anyone to discount that when there is solid evidence, that is extreme. All people deserve the chance to live regardless of their beliefs. There are some things that SOME Jews do that I don't agree with, but I will not judge an entire race anymore than I like someone judging muslims or Americans all the same. I have met Jewish people and not all of them are running around on power trips or greedy or any of the other things they are associated with. Each person should be judged individually. No one likes to be stereotyped so why do it to others?

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 12:02am

Salams Wife thank you because that was my point. I mean we can say the same for us can't we? When people charge Muslims with the 9/11 tragedy we say "no it was extremist not the majority of Muslims!" I don't see why we cannot afford the same respect when it comes to Jews. I'm sorry but I cannot blame jews for everything in the world there has to be a point where I share some of the accountability. I know in law enforcement, you cannot commit a crime and say "the devil made me do it" especially when the crime involves rational thought without external/internal provocation. Therefore, you cannot rob a bank and say the jews made me do it!

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 3:04am

I agree partially with both Israfil and Nur_Illahi.

Nur_Illahi: Apart from the conspiracy-zionist stuff, I agree to the extent that it is true that Jews milk the holocaust a bit too much - it is time they let it go, and stop portraying it as the worst human-right tragedy ever in the whole wide universe. And it is also true, that due to some control the media (for which muslims are to blame as well, for having slept this long, and not taking things into thier own hands) Jews are almost always portrayed as the victims. . .

However I also think that Muslims should grow-up and stop playing the blame-game and learn to accept thier present state as a consequence of thier actions (or a lack-of) I hate the mentality where muslims are willing to throw the blame on everyone but on themselves. Also, logically, how can we blame the Jews for doing what they did (incl manipulation of media) obviousley they will look after thier own interests, like we have to look after ours - but we dont. . . and then expect Allah to send down miracles like in the battle of Badr.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 8:43am

Israfil, where aqidah is concerned, it is not something to play with. You have gone to such a dangerous extremity, as to nearly cross over to the line of kufr (na�uzubillah). If God can create let�s say a beautiful woman in her perfection as a woman, God also can create a human being who is perfect as a human being. Even though Muhammad was created perfect spiritually or physically, he was still a human being. A human being who was not fit to be worshipped like what the Christian did to Jesus. But a human being that we should be grateful to, whom we should love and respect. That is Muhammad salallahualaihiwassalam. Rahmatan lil �alameen. (Mercy for the whole world)

There is only ONE SUPREME BEING THAT IS WORTHY OF WORSHIPPED THAT IS ALLAHUAKBAR!

I was basically refuting an extremity with an extremity. My comment was not about divisions within God. If you know any of my posts it is quite the opposite, but I see you an abuayisha have a hard time with simple logic.

This is not simple logic. Remember our posts are read by many non-Muslims and Muslims who may be ignorant in matters of aqidah. And perhaps you do not realize that your comment may lead someone astray from the TRUE PATH OF ALLAH.

I'm sure the population of Jews back then was greater than it is today

Logically, the population of today should be more than 62 years ago. If today it is approximately 15 million, then it means the population of the Jews should be around 8 to 10 million. And to believe that 6 million Jews died, is a great hoax. No wonder the holocaust nowadays are called holohoax. It is indeed a hoax. If you care to read what the Red Cross Society says about the number of Jewish death you may click http://www.zundelsite.org/english/harwood/Didsix01.html#9 - http://www.zundelsite.org/english/harwood/Didsix01.html#9

As far more russians died than Jews under whose statistics are you referring to? Where is your proof?

The proof is logically, there were more Russians than the Jews.

Perhaps, within the system but I like to feel I'm an autonomous human being who has some control over my destiny and that is, not blaming jews for everything.

Who is blaming your beloved Jew on everything? Actually, as I stated before, the Jews were being used as scapegoats by the Evil Zionists, as shields for these Dajjal worshipping group of people. They were the ones who used Jews to achieve their evil plans in destroying every family, religions and nations.

Nur_Ilahi you are not exercising the rational mindset God has given you and instead choose to live in a blameful world where you point the finger at one group of people. This thinking is the reason why Muslims will not have unity. We blame Jews for pretty much everything. I'm sure its a Jews fault if you go bankrupt or a jews fault if your car is stolen. Oh wait, I'm sure its the Jews fault that the gas prices are so high in America. Hmmm maybe I can blame jews for the reason I can't find a wife....LOL

In Tasawwuf, we were taught that there are two kinds of taqdir - destiny or fate. First is Taqdir Khusus � Natural fate.destiny and the second is Taqdir Tadbir � Administered fate or destiny. If you go bankrupt, then it means that you had been wrong in administering your destiny. Not anybody�s fault but yours. If your car is stolen, and you blame it on the Jews, that means you are st**id!

As to the gas prices are so high in the whole world right now, it is a plan of the Evil Zionists indeed. But that is another story. As for not finding a wife, do not blame on anybody or Allah either, as Allah had created everything in pairs or opposites. That is taqdir Khusus, while you have the other taqdir � taqdir tadbir � choosing your own wife. It is either you want or do not want. The choice is yours.

Do you even kno one lick of Hebrew? Have you even read the entire Talmud with understanding or clarity? Have you read the Torah or Mish'nah torah? If not don't speak of what you don't know. I'm sure you would extend this suggestion to non-muslims correct?

I do not have the opportunity to have a copy of these books. It is not easily found in the library. What we can find is the translations of these books in the internet. Perhaps, since you are so well conversed in these books, you may want to enlighten us?

I am not that st**id Israfil. Those who had these perceptions of Muslims were those who were brainwashed by the evil Zionists who owned the media and to my opinion, their objective is defame and insult Islam so that the general masses will avoid Islam like a plaque.

This is extremist rant. The passages you quoted following this statement are the same tatics people use to disprove Islam. I mean for God's sake does anyone see this besides me? You are doing exactly the samething non-Muslims do when they come here to disprove Islam they use doctrines they have no understanding about and say "see! this verse proves your religion is hostile" I mean for God's sake wake up.

But it is true that the mainstream media are mostly owned by the Zionists right? And do you think the Evil Zionists wants to publish anything good about Islam, their no.1 enemy?

One of the signs of the end times is the emergence of Dajjal. If you think that Dajjal has not appeared yet, think again! If anyone wants to know who the armies of Dajjal is, please read more on Illuminati, New World Order , Freemasonry and the likes. In general these people are the Zionists. Remember one of the characteristics of Dajjal is one eyed? You can find many symbols of the illuminati with one circle denoting the One Eyed Dajjal. This one eye also means that they have only the physical eye, but not the spiritual ones. Hence their cruelty knows no bounds.

This ios a flawed argument. There was non "face to face" meeting with God for God has no "face" to meet. Muhammad was perhaps in the presence of God, but so was Abraham and Moses. In heaven all are in the presence of God. So spiritually i don't see how this makes Muhammad perfect you need to brush on your reasoning.

From here I can deduce that your understanding of Isra� and Mi�raj is very shallow. Your reasoning is at fault not mine. Abraham and Moses were in the presence of God after they died. Jesus is still in the presence of God, but he has not yet returned. But Muhammad? He was in the presence of God while still living and returned to tell us of his journey. Cannot you see the superiority of Muhammad compared with all the other prophets? Who made him superior than the other prophets if not God Himself? And did Muhammad became so arrogant even though he was chosen as Habibullah? No. Never! His wife Aishah once asked him why must he kept on praying when he was protected from doing any sins and heaven was assured for him? He replied � Cannot I be a grateful servant, thanking Him for all His blessings?

As for questioning my faith, again like i said I used an extremity with an extremity.

Yes you can use extremity with extremity, but not to the point of being rude to Allah � that is very close to kufr. Na�uzubillah!

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 10:01am

I will only add a few words about Muhammad being perfect. There has been lengthy debate about Jews. I am only interested in clearing the matter about Muhammd being innocent and perfect example for mankind.

It is true that he made some mistakes (no sins) at times but that was necessary. Otherwise people may have thought that he was God. The only difference is that if ever he made some slightest mistake, he was told about it by Allah (openly) and he was to correct himself which he obeyed. So the bad matter was removed and there was nothing bad in his balance.

The correction was open order, not any advice in secret. That was so that every one would come to know about it. And he would correct his behaviour openly before every one.

The net result is that there is nothing bad in his account. The account is all clean. He is a prophet of God. He is a man. He has to be a good example for mankind. So his life is an open book for all people. It is written in the Quran that he is "Uswah e Hasanah", a very good role model. For that it is necessary that his life should be a pure example. If there are mistakes or other bad things in his life then people could be led astray.

The very pure and clear from all weakness is Allah only (Subhaan Allah). Mankind is prone to make mistakes. There is no harm. But the prophets are guided by Allah and they correct their mistakes.

I hope I am not wrong.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 10:31am

I don�t hate Jews or Christians.

But, I don�t like having the world�s mightiest militaries, including nukes, pointed at Muslims either� Let�s keep things in perspective about who hates who� Far more Muslims are killed by Christians and Jews than the other way around�

On a lighter note�

Has anyone read any Aramaic-biblical text? Or the gnostic scriptures? My guess is no�.

That would be a very good �guess� since it is a dead language and nobody reads the Bible in that language.

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Respectfully

aka2x2

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 1:28pm

Nur_Ilahi I'm not going to go around in circles as this would be getting us nowhere. You have your views regarding the prophet's perfection and I have mine. Anyone with a sound mind can read several of your posts as being confused and contradictory. You cannot say "Oh he was perfect spiritually and physically" yet he was a human being. In matters of dialetical reasoning, this is an oxymoron. If the essence of what it is to be human is temporality Muhammad was not perfect. If Muhammad made mistakes (no sins) as minuteman puts it, he was not perfect. Perfection is a godly attribute. I admire the prophet, but I also admire all the other prophets equally. Muhammad is the greatest among other prophets but he was not perfect. Any human being dependent on an external divine force is not perfect point blank case close you cannot refute that. Outside divine mandate Muhammad was not perfect and was dependent on largely on his tribe e.g. Khadijah and his followers including his uncle who protected him. There is nothing in the Qur'an that says Muhammad is perfect. But of course it is said he is the best example. However this is different than claiming one to be perfect.

Ok, so Muhammad's superiority resides in the fact that he went through the seven heavens and came back to tell of it? That is quite odd. How does that show his superiority over the other prophets? Nur_Ilahi you are a misguided soul who looks to the media to tell her/him what the world is. You claim to have never met a Jew but believe in all the negativity. I seriously think you need to grow up and travel the world. All Jews are not perfect as well as Christians and the two are accountable for some of the tragedies in the world but that doesn't make all of them equally aco******able. Look at the individuals instead of the masses, because again we Muslims whine about this when linked to terrirst right?

And you gotta love this comment: Who is blaming your beloved Jew on everything?

My beloved Jew? Got Osama?

My computer is crashing I think a Jew built it! Damn Best Buy products!

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 1:31pm

aka2x2 wrote:

I don�t hate Jews or Christians.

On a lighter note�

Has anyone read any Aramaic-biblical text? Or the gnostic scriptures? My guess is no�.

That would be a very good �guess� since it is a dead language and nobody reads the Bible in that language.

"far more muslims are killed by Christians and Jews than the other way around" you sure about that? where is your proof that doctrine believing Jews and Christians kill more Muslims. I think what you guys tend to do is link the military with religion. Sure, many military personnel especially in Israel are Jews that is a given, but what is their individual motivation? Duty to country or religion? Nobody cannot see the mind of a soldier. Many people are driven by different things so if you are looking at the fatality aspect of kill ratio of Muslims with respect to the American/Israeli army then that is a shallow analysis. I happen to know people in the U.S. military and some of their motivations are not religion but duty to country. I think its unfair to make this a religious analysis because many do not take religion into account when performing their duty.

Aramaic is not "dead" so to speak there are people that still speak it. In translator phones you'll see Aramaic as one of its selections. I actually know a family who live in a small town in Iran who speak Aramaic not to mention there are scholars who read and write in Aramaic as well. It is not dead it is not as widely spoken as it was back then.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 10:15pm

Nur_Ilahi I'm not going to go around in circles as this would be getting us nowhere. You have your views regarding the prophet's perfection and I have mine..

Yes, to me Muhammad is the perfect example of a human being. No one in this world, whether past present or future will ever equals to him, whether spiritually or physically. Indeed he was the best example of a human being ever lived. The most humble and pious servant of Allah, a loving husband, a devoted father, a doting grandfather, a loyal friend, the best and caring neighbour, an honest businessman, a brave soldier, a respected commander, an esteemed leader, an intelligent statesman, a wise teacher and many more traits that are exemplary.

Anyone with a sound mind can read several of your posts as being confused and contradictory

When I first log on to this website and read your posts, I was confused. I really did not know where you stand. And I still don�t.

Perfection is a godly attribute. I admire the prophet, but I also admire all the other prophets equally. Muhammad is the greatest among other prophets but he was not perfect. Any human being dependent on an external divine force is not perfect point blank case close you cannot refute that. Outside divine mandate Muhammad was not perfect and was dependent on largely on his tribe e.g. Khadijah and his followers including his uncle who protected him. There is nothing in the Qur'an that says Muhammad is perfect. But of course it is said he is the best example. However this is different than claiming one to be perfect.

What Minuteman said about Muhammad is correct. What seems strange to me is that you seems to have a grudge against Muhammad Rasulullah.

Ok, so Muhammad's superiority resides in the fact that he went through the seven heavens and came back to tell of it? That is quite odd. How does that show his superiority over the other prophets?

My dear Israfil, of course he was superior. Can you find any other prophets who lived and went to meet Allah while still living? Did you not know that he became the imam to all the other prophets praying to Allah while in that journey? We say the shahadah, LA ILAHAILALLAH, MUHAMMADURASULULLAH - If that is not superior, what then?

Nur_Ilahi you are a misguided soul who looks to the media to tell her/him what the world is. You claim to have never met a Jew but believe in all the negativity. I seriously think you need to grow up and travel the world. All Jews are not perfect as well as Christians and the two are accountable for some of the tragedies in the world but that doesn't make all of them equally aco******able. Look at the individuals instead of the masses, because again we Muslims whine about this when linked to terrirst right?

I told you, personally I do not have any grudge against the Jews. All these misjudgments against the Jews are all the work of the Evil Zionists. They are behind most of the atrocities of this world whether past or present. We need to know who our real enemy is. They are not the Jews but the Zionist worshipping Dajjal who served Dajjal with loyalty.

My beloved Jew? Got Osama?

Osama was dead. He died not long after 911 due to a kidney disease. He was on the run and could not get the necessary treatment and died. Here is the link. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osama_dead.html - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osama_dead.html

The Zionist owned media tried their best to impersonate him with the latest videos yet, those who care to observe, everytime there would always be a different kind of man being used to imitate Osama. They use Osama as a �ghost� to frighten the general masses into subjugation. If they let know that Osama is dead, there will not be a ghost to scare the general public.

By the way, I was wondering why you change your avatar suddenly? Remember I ever mentioned that I love that avatar?

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 10:21pm

Israfil wrote:

"far more muslims are killed by Christians and Jews than the other way around" you sure about that? where is your proof that doctrine believing Jews and Christians kill more Muslims.

Most of the soldiers in the US army who used guns, bombs, tanks and jets in Iraq and Afghanistan are not Christians or Jews? And who died ? Nearly the whole country of Muslims, whether it be man, women or children.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 11:06pm

Soldiers of the US Army come from all different ethnicities to include arab. They come from all different religions. In fact there is someone in the Army from just about every religion there is on earth. There are even a good number of muslims in the US military. You cannot stereotype the US Army since it is as diverse as the country is.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 5:34am

Salams_wife- yes there is absolutely a problem with that for faith without works is dead.-

Now is that an example of what you think is plagerizm? it is from the Bible.

James 2

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that�and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 5:44am

Believer, I'm not sure if you are talking to someone else because I have no idea what you are talking about. I never said anything like what you mentioned above so I really can't respond.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 5:49am

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=56652&FID=29 - minuteman , Salams_wife

Please explain what you mean by plagerizm. Questioning if what I say is my own words. I am dealing with facts here so more then likely another Christian out there in internet-land has said the very same thing.

I have seen Muslims saying the very same things from forum to forum so I am very consued about this plagerizm accusation.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 11:30pm

Brother Israfil, I couldn't log on for a long while. You have touched, I could say, the most important string on this forum. I just wish we could find out what has set in such venom amongst the people of the book. Specially when history shows us that these very people had perfect joint ventures in el-Andalus and in Ottoman Turkey.

In one for a whole 781 years and I believe the Turkish delight lasted a good 600 years.

Who sowed these seeds of hatred?

Events show that His / Her Britannic Majesty's Special Services happen to hold the major contribution in this regard. Keep your voice low on this matter lest our friend Minuteman hears us, he thinks the Brits have never put a foot wrong. (Nauz o Billah) Gaad can falter but never our Brits!

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Sasha Khanzadeh

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 7:38am

Salams_wife wrote:

Soldiers of the US Army come from all different ethnicities to include arab. They come from all different religions. In fact there is someone in the Army from just about every religion there is on earth. There are even a good number of muslims in the US military. You cannot stereotype the US Army since it is as diverse as the country is.

Yes agreed. Still the fact remains that there are more Muslims than Christians who died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 10:27am

I actually know a family who live in a small town in Iran who speak Aramaic not to mention there are scholars who read and write in Aramaic as well.

Iranians do not speak Aramaic, they primarily speak Persian.

Even if your assertions were true, I doubt if more than a thousand of the world�s population can read Aramaic. That is why the rest of us read the Bible in other languages.

� where is your proof that doctrine believing Jews and Christians kill more Muslims.

There are those who deny that Jews were killed during the Holocaust and there are those who deny Muslims have been killed in Palestine, Bosnia, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. The trocities are well known and speak for themselves.

It must be pointed out that in most cases the perpetrators were self identified Christians. However, useless debate on this issue dishonors the memory of the dead.

FYI

The nonprofit Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) has filed a lawsuit in US District Court in Kansas City against the Pentagon, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and a US Army major, on behalf of Jeremy Hall stationed in Iraq. The suit charges the Pentagon with widespread constitutional violations by allegedly trying to force the soldier to embrace evangelical Christianity and then retaliating against him when he refused.

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Respectfully

aka2x2

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 2:21pm

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=57586&FID=29 - Salams_wife - LOL! my question about me committing plagarizim was meant for those questioning and accusing me of such.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58927&FID=29 - Nur_Ilahi said, "there are more Muslims than Christians who died in Iraq and Afghanistan". WHY? Because of the Muslim against Muslim suicide bombings and sect against sect fighting.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 7:53pm

Excuse my absence as it has been busy for me. going down the line in order.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58927&FID=29 - Nur_Ilahi
Senior Member
Senior%20Member

Most of the soldiers in the US army who used guns, bombs, tanks and jets in Iraq and Afghanistan are not Christians or Jews? And who died ? Nearly the whole country of Muslims, whether it be man, women or children.

The above is a generalization based on what? Your analysis from the death tallies presented by news media? Ok. Let's tackle this. Your statement says "far more muslims are killed by Christians and Jews than the other way around." Obviously this is a generalization. If you are presently referring to the wars that are going on then it is obvious that far more muslims are dying than any other religious adherents because, it is quite obvious that Iraq and Afghanistan are predominatly Muslim populated countries. This is a no-brainer. But also you should know that we are living in an era of war where you have a colonial super power targeting terrorist and caught up in this whirlwind are also civilians who die in war. If you look at the demographics obviously Muslims both innocent and guilty are dying. However you make an unfair generalization according to your statement as a pressumptions attempt to say Christians (and Jews) currently, previously, or historically kill far more Muslims than the other way around. You need to be specific in your assertions because your statements are inaccurate and misleading. Also, as Salaams_Wife pointed out, the U.S. military is comprised of many individuals of diverse religious and ethnic backgrounds. I would say its safe to assume the large portion of this makeup are Christians but to say whether they are conservative, liberal, or other is another question. Like I said earlier soldiers in military act on duty rather than religion. speaking only fo U.S. military it is unconstitutional if soldiers from the Navy to the Marines acted out on religious duty by killing Muslims as this is uncontitutional and discriminatory. It just so happens we are in a war in predominantly Muslim countries and unfortunately fighting an enemy under the guise of Islam.

It's unfair to other good Christians and Jews to be lumped in this broad category as you have mentioned especially with no documented source to support what you're saying. Obviously it is not true elsewhere otherwise you would be confident enough to show us. This thread is about building bridges not blowing them up ( pun intended).

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58864&FID=29 - believer
Senior Member
Senior%20%20Member

Salams_wife- yes there is absolutely a problem with that for faith without works is dead.-

Now is that an example of what you think is plagerizm? it is from the Bible.

Yea I have no clue what you are talking about here, but as for the plagerism i can comment on that. I think believer you have a probable debating your viewpoints so you copy and paste from sources you find to defend your position and post them here as your own saying. I've seen you do this before and this is why I call many of your arguments plagerism. you can post King James or what not but you need to post your source (e.g. which Bible, or website etc). Your inability to dialogue or debate does not give you, me, or anyone else a psss to plagerize others. this really has nothing to do with writing a school term paper its about giving the source of your comments credit.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=47211&FID=29 - Whisper
Senior Member
Senior%20%20Member

agreed. There is something learn about the history of Al-Andalus. Of course there are some debate among Christian and Jewish scholars to the extent of how "peaceful" these times were we can say with collective confidence that these times were quite peaceful and allow the commencement of inter-faith dialogue. I like how many of the Spanish Muslims (including my favorite Ibn-Rushd) could say to someone: "Hey you're wrong, let me write a book to tell you why you're wrong" where are those scholarly attitudes today? Today we say "hey you're wrong" POW! you're dead....Sad and barbaric.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55148&FID=29 - aka2x2
Senior Member
Senior%20Member

Iranians do not speak Aramaic, they primarily speak Persian.

I know that, but Iran is also the historical place where Abraham lived and travelled through. There is also a small town there where the inhabitants do speak Aramaic when I get the name of the town I'll let you know. Like I said on some translator phones it is also a language you can select to speak to a translator if you need help. I used this as an example of a language not being so dead but yes it is not a common language of today.

The trocities are well known and speak for themselves.

Tell that to Nur_Ilahi, she is in full denial.

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 11:17pm

You know believer, one thing about the verse John 3:16 that I have always wondered about (being I was forced to memorize it when I was young) is that I look at that verse and really all it means is that you must believe God and Jesus (peace be upon him) exist. It doesn't say anything about agreeing to the rest of what Christians believe. So, in reality, you could say anyone who believes that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent here by God to bring a message to the people, should go to heaven.

*This message was brought to you without any links or quotes from other sources. Its source is purely from the thoughts of the writer attributed to this post.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 7:26pm

lol!! I use

http://www.biblegateway.com/ - http://www.biblegateway.com/

but any Bible site will do.

I use

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

for the Quran, but doesn't any Qran site work?

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 8:11pm

So why do you need Mohammad and Islam? My thought

John 14

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." God's Word

Do you understand the above verse? No one is with GOD at the end of their human existance except those that believe Jesus laid down His life for all of mankind. I am moved to give this thought to the Noly Spirit

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 9:22pm

believer wrote:

So why do you need Mohammad and Islam? My thought

John 14

Believer, please believe me. Every prophet was the way in his own time. Jesus was the way when he was preaching. There was no other way inhis time. Moses was the way in his time. Abraham was the way inhis time. I do not deny what jesus said. It is all true. But what meaning we are trying to take out of that we have to be careful.

Also please note the words "from now on" in the words of Jesus. We have no objection. We love Jesus and his words. From now on, all have to pay attention to what Jesus said. He said " "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". We Muslims believe in him. WE believe that he is the way.

But what about paul and so many others who have made addendums to the sayings of Jesus. They are not the way. That is what I feel, if there is no objection. I will say that the others are not the way to God. Only Jesus is the way to God. He himself is telling that. He is the way.

If any one preaches to me the words of Jesus or God or the holy ghost, I do not mind. But if any one adds or subtracts from those words then I am free to walk away.

"From now on", in other words his teachings were not applicable to the people who lived before him.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 11:04pm

believer wrote:

So why do you need Mohammad and Islam? My thought

John 14

Believer, I need Mohammad (SAWS) because he corrected the things that got distorted after Jesus (PBUH) passed. God in his infinite wisdom chose to send a final prophet to get the message out correctly to all those who chose to believe so that they may follow the correct path.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 2:16am

And I need Muhammad because he guided me to Abraham and Issac, Jacob, Moses and Jesus a.s. I see that the Hindus do not believe in Jesus. The Budhists do not tbelieve. The Jews for whom Jesus had come, they do not believe in Jesus as a prophet of God. It is only the Muslims who believe in Jesus as the messenger of God. Why they believe?

The Muslims believe because Muhammad told them to do so. If there is no Muhammad or no Quran then there is no Jesus for us. So we are thankful to Hazrat Muhammad for bringing the unbiased, natural guidance for us all. That guidance is a natural continuation of the previous scriptures. So no harm.

There is no hatred or denial of any prophet of God in Islam. Thanks to Allah.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 6:04am

If you are presently referring to the wars that are going on then it is obvious that far more muslims are dying than any other religious adherents because, it is quite obvious that Iraq and Afghanistan are predominatly Muslim populated countries.

It is definitely a fact that 1 US fighter jet could kill 1 whole village of innocent men, women and children. How many US fighter jets are there in Iraq and Afghanistan now?

Iraqi Deaths Due to U.S. Invasion as at July 17 2008 � 1.236,604

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html - http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html

American Military Casualties in Iraq http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/ - http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/

This is a no-brainer. But also you should know that we are living in an era of war where you have a colonial super power targeting terrorist and caught up in this whirlwind are also civilians who die in war.

You conduct a war when your opponent has more or equal capabilities as you. But if you conduct a war on a poor sanctioned country, that is not war, that is pure bullying and genocide.

Like I said earlier soldiers in military act on duty rather than religion. speaking only fo U.S. military it is unconstitutional if soldiers from the Navy to the Marines acted out on religious duty by killing Muslims as this is uncontitutional and discriminatory.

Alright, I will be fair, for most of the US soldiers they have no choice but to obey their commanders who in turn obey the Zionist leaders that are governing USA. They are trapped in a st**id war that pit Muslims against Christians and who is the winner? The greedy, brutal, Dajjal worshipping Zionists.

It just so happens we are in a war in predominantly Muslim countries and unfortunately fighting an enemy under the guise of Islam.

Oh my, reading this statement, make me smile. Please do not show your true colours yet my dear Israfil. You are obviously fed with mis-information by the Zionist owned media. Under the guise of Islam? The Iraqis do not have to disguise themselves. They are Muslims. It is the Zionist controlled army who is disguising behind the veil of hunting terrorists. Let me explain to you clearly my dear Israfil, the real terrorists are not the Iraqis or the Afghanis, nor the US soldiers who are being used as sitting ducks � but the Brutal Zionists leaders. Actually I do not have to explain, you know it, but you refuse to acknowledge it.

It's unfair to other good Christians and Jews to be lumped in this broad category as you have mentioned especially with no documented source to support what you're saying.

As I mentioned before, most of the US soldiers are just pawns being used by the leaders. Logically of course, there are only a handful of US Muslim soldiers, while the bulk are of course Christians and Jews (and do not be surprised � even Israelis).

Obviously it is not true elsewhere otherwise you would be confident enough to show us.

You are obsessed with proofs. In my previous posts I had given so many proofs, but you seem to retreat in your own shell.

This thread is about building bridges not blowing them up ( pun intended).

How can we build bridges when there is no honesty and sincerity?

By the way, you have not answered many of my questions in my previous posts. And I repeat one question, why did you suddenly change your avatar?

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 8:20am

Nur,

I am not sure it actually has anything to do with religion.. many zionists are actually not religious Jews..

I think the war is about GREED. Pure and simple. Someone is getting rich.. follow the money trail.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 7:50pm

Hayfa wrote:

Nur,

I am not sure it actually has anything to do with religion.. many zionists are actually not religious Jews..

I think the war is about GREED. Pure and simple. Someone is getting rich.. follow the money trail.

Hayfa,

I do agree that war is all about GREED.

Zionists are not only Jews but there are also Christian Zionists. Actually I hate to blame this war on the innocent whether it be Christians or the Muslims who are fighting for their survival in these war zones.

We have to know who our real enemy is. It is the evil Zionists whose brutality knows no bounds. The DAJJAL (Anti-Christ) worshipping group of people who use their power, wealth to destroy family, religion and nation.

Their agents are everywhere on this planet earth, They have no love an compassion, no sense of shame, no guilt and they do it openly or discreetly.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 11:33pm

For believer, his signature:

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

But in OT, in the old wine, we see that Jacob was the first born of God. So Jesus was not the only son. Can you people please clarify and tell what is the truth. What kind of first born was jacob and what kind of son was Jesus? Is Jesus really the one and only son (of God)?

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 11:47pm

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Hayfa wrote:

Nur,

I am not sure it actually has anything to do with religion.. many zionists are actually not religious Jews..

I think the war is about GREED. Pure and simple. Someone is getting rich.. follow the money trail.

Just out of curiosity, how do you explain all the suicide bombers and sectarian violence in Iraq? This is muslims killing muslims and results in many casulties.

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 12:15pm

Minuteman if you can please move your inquiries to the other section, thanks.

Again from what I've seen we cannot deny there is some underlined hatred. Nur_Ilahi admits to having some for Jews yet, her only recourse is media influence just one among others. If there is any confusion I'm not saying christians and Jews are victims or innocent, and if anyone miscontrue my words please ask me to clarify.

Nur_Ilahi you gave me an anti-war source which of course will cite casualties and perhaps blow things out of proportion but I took them in consideration. I won' deny that in the current wars a lot of people are dying however I'm trying to get you to realize that you have to distinguish between soldiers who act out of duty and command versus religious obligation. Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq who fight against the occupation fight for two things: Independence and Religious obligation. It appears nowadays that the latter appears more true than the former. |This is the difference here but unfortunately because its a foreign terrain the U.S. military is unable to fight against an opponent it cannot see since the terrain belongs to the people, all the more reason its inappropriate to NOT be there. Let me also clarify something here.

Jews don't run America. Male, white elitist do. Jews are an influential force because we have a president who is influenced by Right-Wing Christian Conservatives who in turn are Christian Zionist influenced by Zionist within Israel. The Zionist in Israel (whoever they are) influence Right-Wing Christians but Christians Conservatist only care about Israel because of Biblical prophecy and the so-called belief that Jews are God's chosen people, which is not only an exclusionary religious belief but also ethnocentric.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 5:50pm

Salams_wife wrote:

Just out of curiosity, how do you explain all the suicide bombers and sectarian violence in Iraq? This is muslims killing muslims and results in many casulties.

Salamalaiki ya Salams Wife.

If you follow what the Zionists Shills consider �Conspiracy Sites� you will understand why this happens. As someone who loves truth and also as a Muslim, we have to read these �Conspiracy Sites� because most I repeat most of these sites support the Innocence of Muslims, discovering Truth and point the fingers to the Evil, Dajjal worshipping Zionists whose main objective is to destroy individual, family, nation and religion.

I quote from this site - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545966 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545966

��Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.� (Al-An`am: 151) �Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)� (Al-Isra�: 33)

The point here is, it�s not of the Islamic teachings to kill people just because they happen to be non-Muslims or happen to disagree with Muslims on some points. What attests to this is the fact that the first war in the Islamic history would have never occurred if not that the enemies of Islam could not be satisfied with expelling Muslims from their home (Makkah), rather they planned to carry the aggression to Madinah in order to exterminate Muslims once and for all. So the question that should have been asked is: why do opponents are always on the trail of Muslims?

See Salams Wife, history is repeating itself many times over. Look at Iraq now, what did the Zionists army do to them and also Afghanistan? The reason is as the same as above, to exterminate Muslims � the no,1 enemy of the Evil Zionists.

I will quote another �Conspiracy sites� http://www.counterpunch.org/walsh03092006.html - http://www.counterpunch.org/walsh03092006.html

One of the abiding myths about the War on Iraq is that the neocons were too st**id to realize that they would confront an unrelenting, indigenous resistance to their occupation of Iraq. Unwittingly, the story line goes, they led the U.S. into a conflict which has now produced a civil war. But this simply does not fit the facts. The neocons clearly anticipated such an outcome before they launched their war as Stephen Zunes documents in http://www.antiwar.com/orig/zunes.php?articleid=8668 - Antiwar.com :

"Top analysts in the CIA and State Department, as well as large numbers of Middle East experts, warned that a U.S. invasion of Iraq could result in a violent ethnic and sectarian conflict. Even some of the war's intellectual architects acknowledged as much: In a 1997 paper, prior to becoming major figures in the Bush foreign policy team, David Wurmser, Richard Perle, and Douglas Feith predicted that a post-Saddam Iraq would likely be "ripped apart" by sectarianism and other cleavages but called on the United States to "expedite" such a collapse anyway."

Salams Wife, the sectarian division was done on purpose. The Muslims there had been sowed discord, some by unknowing Muslims, and some by the agents of these evil Zionists. Once I saw in another �conspiracy site� pictures of destruction in Iraq and a big blue painting of the star of David on one of the destroyed houses.

Remember as a Muslim, what is one of the pillar of Iman? To believe in Qiyamah. These wars are signs of Qiyamah. It is so near already. We just have to increase our iman by clinging to Allah Al-Haq (Allah The Truth). We do not know when will our �small qiyamah� (death) will come as nowadays, the Evil Zionists are able to create tsunamis and storms with modern technology and resulted in massive deaths.

Astaghfiruallah!

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 6:01pm

Again from what I've seen we cannot deny there is some underlined hatred. Nur_Ilahi admits to having some for Jews yet, her only recourse is media influence just one among others.

I tell you again Israfil, that personally I have never had any hatred for any Jews, as I had never ever met one before. But I will reiterate here that I hate the Evil, Dajjal Worshipping Zionists who happens to be mostly Jews and whose hatred towards Truth � anyone who cling to the Truth � knows no bounds. And at least I am not being dishonest in showing my hatred towards this group of evil people, whose main weapon is lies and dishonesty. In fact I had many encounters before with posters in forum, who are so smart in disguising themselves as Muslims yet stabbing Muslims behind their back figuratively.

Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq who fight against the occupation fight for two things: Independence and Religious obligation.

The Iraqis and the Afghanis had all the right to defend their country for whatever reasons they believe. However the Evil Zionists army had no right to conquer their land with force and in doing so destroy a whole country of infrastructure and innocent people.

This is the difference here but unfortunately because its a foreign terrain the U.S. military is unable to fight against an opponent it cannot see since the terrain belongs to the people, all the more reason its inappropriate to NOT be there.

Whether you like it or not these Evil Zionists will never ever surrender. After all it is not their lives that are at stake, it is the lives of innocent people be it Muslims or non-Muslims who are fighting for their own survival there.

Jews don't run America.

I do not care who run America. Whether it be Jews or non-Jews, Black or White. The responsibility of every truth loving citizens of USA and also the whole world, should try to get rid of any dishonest politician, worse still if they are following an evil cult that loves destruction of lives and property.

By the way, you have not answered many of my questions in my previous posts. And I repeat the questions, why did you suddenly change your avatar? How can we build bridges when there is no honesty and sincerity?

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 6:14pm

If the Zionists can cause a tsunami or storm, then do you think they caused the one that hit New Orleans so badly?

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 8:07pm

Salams_wife wrote:

If the Zionists can cause a tsunami or storm, then do you think they caused the one that hit New Orleans so badly?

Salams Wife,

Have you ever heard of HAARP - High Frequency Active Auroral Reasearch Program? http://www.viewzone.com/haarp11.html - http://www.viewzone.com/haarp11.html

HAARP � WEAPONS OF TOTAL DESTRUCTION - http://www.outlawjournalism.com/news/?p=2648 - http://www.outlawjournalism.com/news/?p=2648

DouglasBickfordTRUTHTV NEW WORLD ORDER/HAARP CAUSED HURRICANE KATRINA/JAPAN/PERU EARTHQUAKE! http://www.livevideo.com/images/spacer.gif -

- http://www.livevideo.com/video/27E98B0A148845568D2CBC8396C9B926/douglasbickfordtruthtv-new-wor.aspx - http://www.livevideo.com/video/27E98B0A148845568D2CBC8396C9B926/douglasbickfordtruthtv-new-wor.aspx

China Earthquake caused by HAARP weapon 引发地震的证据

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLwVgvvTvU&eurl=http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=592590 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLwVgvvTvU&eurl=http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=592590

"TSUNAMI" WAS MAN-MADE -WEATHER CONTROL -HAARP �CHEMTRAILS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwKcjRD1DNE&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwKcjRD1DNE&feature=related

HAARP Weapon-China Quake,Myanmar Cyclone,Tsunami man made!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JMeVaVstuI - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JMeVaVstuI

Remember the signs of the Illuminati, Freemasonry, New World Order and the likes of Zionism is the LONE EYE? � I repeat again, the Lone Eye or One Circle denotes the physical eye only, but not the spiritual one. HENCE ZIONISTS ARE A GROUP OF DAJJAL WORSHIPPING PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO COMPASSION, CRUEL AND BRUTAL. So beware!

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 8:40pm

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Salams_wife wrote:

If the Zionists can cause a tsunami or storm, then do you think they caused the one that hit New Orleans so badly?

Salams Wife,

Have you ever heard of HAARP - High Frequency Active Auroral Reasearch Program? http://www.viewzone.com/haarp11.html - http://www.viewzone.com/haarp11.html

HAARP � WEAPONS OF TOTAL DESTRUCTION - http://www.outlawjournalism.com/news/?p=2648 - http://www.outlawjournalism.com/news/?p=2648

DouglasBickfordTRUTHTV NEW WORLD ORDER/HAARP CAUSED HURRICANE KATRINA/JAPAN/PERU EARTHQUAKE! http://www.livevideo.com/images/spacer.gif -

China Earthquake caused by HAARP weapon 引发地震的证据

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLwVgvvTvU&eurl=http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=592590 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLwVgvvTvU&eurl=http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=592590

"TSUNAMI" WAS MAN-MADE -WEATHER CONTROL -HAARP �CHEMTRAILS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwKcjRD1DNE&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwKcjRD1DNE&feature=related

HAARP Weapon-China Quake,Myanmar Cyclone,Tsunami man made!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JMeVaVstuI - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JMeVaVstuI

I have heard of what you are talking about. It seems these evil people target the United States too since we get those earth quakes and hurricanes all the time. This explains so much about the theories regarding hurricane Katrina and maybe even that SanFrancisco earthquake that destroyed so much back in 1989.

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 8:54pm

Nur_Ilahi I can commend you for your open honesty and you're right, you are openly honest about your dislike of Jews and/Zionist, but as you have admitted here you have not met a Jewish person in person but only have second hand knowledge. I tried reasoning with you in the fact that your lack of personally experiencing a Jewish person(s) as well as the culture perhaps contributes to 90% of your negative ideas about Jews. I'm not saying you should love all Jews or Christians but look at where your knowledge comes from. Frankly, looking at websites aimed at demonizing an entire people is not entirely accurate. I cannot lead myself to believe that every single or most people in a certain culture is bad or is evil. Conspiracy theoriest have no real logic explanation for things since, a lot of thoughts regading Jews and Jewish culture is largely theoretical. Yes, anyone can post influential statistics but that doesn't necessarily ring true.

to answer your question "why did I suddenly change my Avatar?" I didn't suddenly change it. I had it fo 3 months, but I changed it because of something new no specific reason. To answer your second statement I have to disagree. there are sincere individuals, I think you just happen to be blinded by your own stereotypes. It's difficult for you to see because you'll just discount my criticisms but I'm sure other "worldly" people can see your stereotypical biases.

Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 9:23pm

Again from what I've seen we cannot deny there is some underlined hatred.

There were no underlined hatreds - in 781 years of these communities Joint Venture in Spain.

There were no underlined hatreds in the 600 years of their collaboration at the Topkapi in Istanbul.
There were no underlined hatred when Haroon ur Rasheed and Saint Paul use to share a glass of red wine or two.

Would it be asking too much for someone to just sit up and find out who underlined these hatreds instead of just singing these hatred songs?
Our great spin machine and those British Special Agents since the Greek wars (circa 1832) and now our blessed U S Intel manufactured these hatreds.
Muslims, Jews and Christians didn't.

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Sasha Khanzadeh

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 9:27pm

Its been awhile Whisper. First I leave and don't come back for months, then you do the same. I missed your enlightened perspective on the world!