ADEENUL �AQL � RELIGION IS INTELLECT .
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Topic: ADEENUL �AQL � RELIGION IS INTELLECT .
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: ADEENUL �AQL � RELIGION IS INTELLECT .
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 7:14am
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Assalamualaikum. We live in this world, drinking the same water, eating the same food (source ) breathing the same air, and standing on the same earth. There could only be ONE CREATOR who had created the furthest of the planet or the tiniest of an atom. There never could be more than One God who had this absolute power. However sadly, there are so many religions and so many gods. Ever wonder whose God is the greatest? In the Quran, there are many words that dare humans to think, to use their �aql or intellect, to reflect, to observe using this �aql. All of us were given this brain or intellect. However �aql or intellect is useless without �ilm or knowledge. Words in the Quran like �
afala t(y)a�qilun (do you or they not reason) Human beings are meant to grow to become thinking/reasoning people. Fiqr or �aql are normally necessary to realize the basic religious truth. ADEENUL �AQL � RELIGION IS INTELLECT . If the religion is compatible with �aql or intellect, it is the True Religion. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Replies:
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 9:57am
So you have ta�qilun and tafakkaru. Ahem...... that's only two. you said there were many...... ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 5:14pm
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Nur_Ilahi your thesis doesn't hold the following are reason(s) why:
Human beings are meant to grow to become thinking/reasoning people. Fiqr or �aql are normally necessary to realize the basic religious truth.
There are many monotheistic faiths that follow the premise of looking in the external enviornment for God's existence. We need not look solely at the Abrahamic faiths as this is commonly evident. the baisc principles of Sikhisms monotheistic philosophy is being "open" and searching through the world to find God for the Sikh, God is the "Ultimate Reality."
From what you are saying, you are saying that whatever religion that professes using reasoning or exercising one's intellect is the "true religion?" Again this is along the lines of dialetical reasoning but your premise is not supporting your statements here.
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 7:14pm
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Israfil,
Finding God is not only spiritually, but also physically. Allah is AzZahir (The Manifest) and He is Al-Bathin (The Hidden). Spiritually, I have no doubt whatsoever that we all, who worship some kind of god whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism and others are woshipping the same Super Being that created us. In the Quran God Almighty after creating all the souls asked � �Alastubirrabbikum? � Am I not your Lord?� And all of us (the Ruh or Souls) replied � �Bala Shahidna � Indeed you are!� That is why you will find most human beings in this whole world has some kind of religion � a way of communicating with God who created us, even in the deepest jungles of Amazon. That is the true purpose of us living in this world. To find God. But which of the many religion in this world is the truest, the most acceptable religion to God AlMighty?
One of the attribute of God AlMighty is All-Knowing � Al Aleem, He should be!. For those who had never heard of Islam, He is Merciful and it is all up to Him. However for those who had heard of Islam, they are supposed to use their �aql that each and everyone of us had been given with, to compare and differentiate. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 9:29pm
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One of the attribute of God AlMighty is All-Knowing � Al Aleem, He should be!. For those who had never heard of Islam, He is Merciful and it is all up to Him. However for those who had heard of Islam, they are supposed to use their �aql that each and everyone of us had been given with, to compare and differentiate.
And for us to have heard of Islam and find it totally suffocating and intrusive, what then? There is an obivous cellar and ceiling about your interpretation of your religion. Your interpretation of your religion has nothing to do with spirituality. Think about it, all sorts of rules that defy the nature of a person - no room to explore different thougt It's just not that simple and to think so is an insult to what moves this universe.
Merigen
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 08 June 2008 at 6:49am
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And for us to have heard of Islam and find it totally suffocating and intrusive, what then?
The Nafs or the ego in us always prefer an easy way. The difficult way is to research and study in depth about anything that matters to you. And believing the mainstream media owned by the Zionists (servants of Dajjal) is one of the easy way out.
Your interpretation of your religion has nothing to do with spirituality.
I am discussing about the physical side of Islam. Where spirituality is concerned, the depth is so deep, it is unknown. It is only known to people who had won their personal jihad against the Nafs and sincere in their obedience to God AlMighty.
Do you know that there are seven levels of Nafs? The lowest is animal-like and the highest is purity and perfection itself?
Think about it, all sorts of rules that defy the nature of a person - no room to explore different thougt - Care to elaborate?
It's just not that simple and to think so is an insult to what moves this universe. Associating God Almighty with a creation of His whether that be a fatherless man or an idol or a statue is an insult to the greatness of God AlMighty who had the power to move this universe - not a fatherless man, an idol or a statue. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 7:35pm
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Hi Nur,
I haven't looked at this post for a few days. I will probably be adding to it as time goes by.
Think about it, all sorts of rules that defy the nature of a person - no room to explore different thougt - Care to elaborate?
Here goes...
Why is there such strict segregation of Muslim men and women? Why aren't you allowed to worship together as a family even at your mosque?
Why aren't dogs allowed in the house? They are one of God's most wonderful creatures.
Why are some musical instruments haram? Which ones? Do you like music?
Do you read fiction novels?
Do you like live theatre?
Why is it considered immodest for a woman to have her arms exposed but not a man's? I ask this because for recent problems in the UK with washing before surgery and attending patients?
As I said, I'll probably be adding to this list of questions. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 7:39pm
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Nur,
The Nafs or the ego in us always prefer an easy way. The difficult way is to research and study in depth about anything that matters to you. And believing the mainstream media owned by the Zionists (servants of Dajjal) is one of the easy way out.
To me, this sounds like the conspiracy theories that Muslims are purported to believe in.
Merigen |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 6:34am
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Hi Merigen,
Why is there such strict segregation of Muslim men and women? Why aren't you allowed to worship together as a family even at your mosque? When you are at home yes you can. The father or a most senior male person as the imam or leader. But when in the mosque, the men have to be segregated from women. The explanation is below. Why aren't dogs allowed in the house? They are one of God's most wonderful creatures. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996015602&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996015602&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE
Why are some musical instruments haram? Which ones? Do you like music? Of course I do like music. But that was when I was young. Now, it does not make much diference whether I hear music or not. Music makes me forget my zikr � remembrance of God. If you want to know further here is the link. http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/5000 - http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/5000 Do you read fiction novels? I did., when I was younger and my faith was still not strong enough. Now, again it is a waste of time. It is much preferable that I go on line and read informations about Islam or read Islamic books. Do you like live theatre? � There is no necessity. I can live without it. Why is it considered immodest for a woman to have her arms exposed but not a man's? I ask this because for recent problems in the Islam teaches that a man�s desire/passion/lust starts from the eyes. Men gets easily aroused sexually when seeing a woman especially if the women bare themselves. Some men gets excited sexually when seeing a woman�s hair, some eye the neck, some love the figure and the bum while most men love to ogle a woman�s boobs. On the other hand, a woman�s desire/passion/lust starts from the touch. In order for men to increase the sexual drive of a woman, the first thing that they do is caressing the bare skin. Whenever you attend a gathering of Muslims, whether in prayers, in classes or public forums, women will be seated in the rear while men will be in the front. This is to save the men from the whisperings of satan and lust and hence can concentrate more in their prayers or in their studies. Imagine a woman praying infront of a man and the when doing ruku� or bowing, he sees the bum of the woman infront of him, satan or lust will sure take advantage. Hence the law on hijab. These Islamic teachings are from God Al-Mighty, Al-Aleem � All Knowing. As I said, I'll probably be adding to this list of questions. If you sincerely wants to know more, you should just google or perhaps go to sites like this http://www.islamqa.com/en - http://www.islamqa.com/en ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 12:48pm
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What a barren, narrow life you are describing, Nur! And how disappointed God must be with your refusal to accept the many pleasures which He has provided for you! Why on earth do you think He created you with the capacity to enjoy music, art, literature, dance, and so on? These things are not distractions from God. They are God's greatest gifts to us -- and when someone gives you a gift, it is bad manners not to at least try to be appreciative. That's how I see it anyway. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 5:34pm
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Nur,
Imagine a woman praying infront of a man and the when doing ruku� or bowing, he sees the bum of the woman infront of him, satan or lust will sure take advantage. Hence the law on hijab. These Islamic teachings are from God Al-Mighty, Al-Aleem � All Knowing. I attend church and we sit wherever we want. No bowing goes on but there is a fair amount of standing and singing. No one looks like satan is whispering in their ears and men don't seem to look like they're going to jump anyone once the service is over. Coffee hour runs smoothly too. I forgot to mention that we have a Bible session before the service. That's a mixed group also and so far nothing has happened and it's been going on for years. I would venture a guess that what you call Islamic teachings are actually some hadith handed down by some guy who was totally preoccupied by sex and puritanical at the same time.
I'm trying to digest the rest of your answers. It will take a while.
Merigen
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 7:45pm
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Just this morning, CBC Radio's "Sunday Edition" played an interview with a Muslim woman from Banda Aceh, Indonesia, commenting on the restrictions that women faced in that region. Women are not allowed outside their homes after dark. The reason? They might be attacked by Muslim men. So the woman made what I thought was a reasonable suggestion: if the men are the problem, then why not restrict the men from being on the street after dark?  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Merigen wrote:Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 5:47am
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if the men are the problem, then why not restrict the men from being on the street after dark?
LOL!! That seems fair to me!
Merigen
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:07am
Well then you do not know what the life of a Muslimi s like. We do not live for this life only, but the hereafter is more important for us. Our physical body will disintegrate once we die, but our soul will be alive forever. And this is the soul that we are trying to enrich with closeness to God Almighty.
I wonder whether you are aware that we are communicating via our souls, without even opening our mouth, or moving our lips, yet we can feel the emotion of each other. The soul that has no colours, no race that knows no boundaries. This is the soul that will be answerable to God AlMighty and the first question that God will ask, when we leave this world is - Ma Rabbuka? Who is your God?
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:15am
I wonder why you quoted these, yet you avoid these facts.
Islam teaches that a man�s desire/passion/lust starts from the eyes. Men gets easily aroused sexually when seeing a woman especially if the women bare themselves. Some men gets excited sexually when seeing a woman�s hair, some eye the neck, some love the figure and the bum while most men love to ogle a woman�s boobs. On the other hand, a woman�s desire/passion/lust starts from the touch. In order for men to increase the sexual drive of a woman, the first thing that they do is caressing the bare skin. No bowing goes on but there is a fair amount of standing and singing. The prophets even in your bible prostrate to God when they do their prayers, but not Christians nowadays. This confirms that Christians contradicts the teachings of Bible teachings. I would venture a guess that what you call Islamic teachings are actually some hadith handed down by some guy who was totally preoccupied by sex and puritanical at the same time. = There speaks an ignorant person. I will repeat again here - Adeenul 'Aql - Religion is intellect. So feed your intellect with knowledge than you will be enlightened. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:21am
These laws are from our Creator - Allah Al-Khaliq. It applies to the whole of human race. He created us and He knows what is best for us. That means it applies to you too. Just look at the morality of the Western men. Ever wonder why pornography are a favourite of men? Because Lust for men, starts from the eyes. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:31am
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Segregation is necessary. There is no need to mix up the unrelated persons of opposite sex. The result will be what is now available in Europe. WE Muslims do not need to provide any better proof of such things. There is definite attraction between persons of opposite sex. At times there is urge (desire).
Women feel more comfortable when working with other women. Plus and minus terminals should be kept away or reasonably insulated from each other. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 7:28am
Christians do prostrate, along with all the standing and singing, there is much kneeling heads down and hands put together with the fingers facing up to the heavens. You can even just stand with your hands together and the head slightly down and say a prayer. This is also prostrating. -------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 3:59pm
I suppose this looked like a rhetorical question when I asked it, but I would really be curious to know how Muslims would answer it:
And you can add sexual attraction to that list if you want. Quite apart from the actual act of procreation, why did God make men and women with the capacity to enjoy one another's appearance, companionship, etc., if not as a gift for us to appreciate? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 5:50pm
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Ron Webb perhaps I can answer that.
This is pure off my own intellect so if you're looking for documented Islamic source then I suggest asking one of the members who have a source handy. In such an inquiry I'm more of an Averrorist when it comes to faculties of man. Averroes (Ibn Rushd) took the position that man with all his flaws and limited qualities is capable of prophetic revelation (any human being). We all possess so-called "divine qualities" that enable us to communicate directly to God. According to Averroes it is by God's divine whether or not he activates this divine mechanism in our intellect-in contemporary thought we call this being chosen.
I believe more conservative Muslims are using religion as a tool to constrict masses to absolve from activities that they see as emulating no-muslims. Indulging in music and the arts is one of them. I've heard audio lectures from Sheikhs from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Muslim dominated countries where they speak out against music, the arts the sciences and so forth. I began to ask myself "why would so-called scholars who, speak their lives studying a focused discipline would condemn other cultural areas they themselves don't know about?" Such questions beg answers.
I don't know if God "loves" music as I take the position of Moses Maimonides in believing that God is beyond our desires adn has left those to us. I believe God gave human beings a variety of qualities so that we not only have the full experience of being human, but it is also apart of our intellect so that we have some sort of self-identification. We know ourselves through our interaction in the world that means, music, the arts, sciences etc. I believe God gave us sexual desires so that we would procreate and replenish the human popultion.
The mechanisms that promote lust in our biological makeup is apart of this equation. Although the intent was not to become immoral creatures it was as I already mentioned, for the purpose of procreation and as well as developing (or solidfying) a relationship with the other person. When religions define morality within their own scope of understanding you'll always have restrictions and this is not always a bad thing. Humans although the most intelligent creatures on the planet still need guidance. Even if you are areligious human beings still need guidance throughout their life whether its guidance in school, work, sports, or life. We sometimes need constraint because it is easy to become side tracked. But at the same time there must be a balance in how much constraint.
I believe all those qualities of a human being should be enjoyed to their fullest extent because that is where we enjoy our humanity however there must also be a balance to that enjoyment.
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Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:19pm
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Nur,
I wonder why you quoted these, yet you avoid these facts.
Islam teaches that a man�s desire/passion/lust starts from the eyes. Men gets easily aroused sexually when seeing a woman especially if the women bare themselves. Some men gets excited sexually when seeing a woman�s hair, some eye the neck, some love the figure and the bum while most men love to ogle a woman�s boobs. On the other hand, a woman�s desire/passion/lust starts from the touch. In order for men to increase the sexual drive of a woman, the first thing that they do is caressing the bare skin. I am not avoiding the above. It's just that I think much of it is very silly. Men have the ability to inhibit their actions and they should. By making them such pathetic babies, you are denying them the opportunity to show they can or should behave properly. No bowing goes on but there is a fair amount of standing and singing. The prophets even in your bible prostrate to God when they do their prayers, but not Christians nowadays. This confirms that Christians contradicts the teachings of Bible teachings. Why would this bother you? You think the Bible is corrupted anyway.
I would venture a guess that what you call Islamic teachings are actually some hadith handed down by some guy who was totally preoccupied by sex and puritanical at the same time. = There speaks an ignorant person. I will repeat again here - Adeenul 'Aql - Religion is intellect. So feed your intellect with knowledge than you will be enlightened.
The above is my personal opinion. From what I see and read, why would you expect anything different? I worked once with a very nice Muslim man. We spoke one day about he and his wife returning to their native land of Pakistan for a visit. He mentioned that she would be wearing hijab during the visit. He laughed when I interjected that it seemed that the purpose of the clothing was due to men being weak. He laughed and said, "yes we are very weak."
Merigen
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Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:49pm
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Minuteman,
Segregation is necessary. There is no need to mix up the unrelated persons of opposite sex. The result will be what is now available in Europe. WE Muslims do not need to provide any better proof of such things. There is definite attraction between persons of opposite sex. At times there is urge (desire).
Women feel more comfortable when working with other women. Plus and minus terminals should be kept away or reasonably insulated from each other.
Where do you live? I think it would be pretty impractical to segregate people at work. To make light of the situation I ask, why would you get involved with someone you work with when you have so many daily problems to begin with? I actually do work with women only in the department I am assigned to but I see men daily - "Hey! Are you? How's your wife and kids? How is school? How's your girlfriend?, How's your new dog or cat?, etc." If the person in the cubicle next to me was male, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.
I'm sure you already read my post about church. As I said there's no hanky-panky going on there. We all enjoy philosophical conversation with each other and more mundane doings such as - who brought the treats for coffee hour today?? After church we all go our separate ways.
I'm not exactly sure what's available in Europe these days. My best friend and her husband have been going there for three years now and have done alot of sight seeing and eating in wonderful restaurants.
I do take public transportation everyday and that's not segregated either. No problems except for the occasional drunk in the evenings.
Merigen |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:55pm
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Hello Israfil, I liked your post to Ron Webb expecially because it was off the top of your head and not from a documented Islamic source. I'll read more about the information you gave. Thank you! Merigen |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 8:08am
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Many Christians during prayer hold hands- men and women, children young and old, friends and family memebers holding hands praying together.
It is very strong and moving, 1 people together talking to GOD.
You are no more then an animal if you can not control your lust!! ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 8:51am
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Women and men are more segregated in certain areas to help people focus. Yes there is nothing inherently wrong with desire. It is a blessing. But there is a time and place for it. And when people pray one should limit the distractions as possible. That is why for the segregation. Plus in prayer we do touch in lines. When I line up with the women we touch shoulder to shoulder. We accidently bump and touch. Most Muslims in "public" areas mix. I lived in Pakistan for seveal months.. and men and women do work together. There is no problem with that. The modest dress by both men and women is part of the culture. Not sure where people get that men and women do not "mix" in other forums. The main point is to not be alone with men with whom you are not married or related to.At the masjid I go to they had graduation for the kids and familes say together.. no problem.
In my mind, intellect.. lol, the modest dress code is to help preserve the sacredness of the relationship of husband and wife. The commercialization and crassness that exists is rather sad actually.
And it is not just in Indonesia, women all over the globe do not go out at night. I teach self-defense. And you know, it is a dangeous world out there. Women are assaulted, raped and beaten. Violence is a reality of our lives. Yes no one should assault another.. well.. until it stops if women choose not to take those risks why should they?
You'd think that men could have more "self-control" but watch men, from any culture.. women walks down street in certain outfit..watch their eyes..
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 11:11am
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Merigen,
I agree with you that men as well as women should know their limits and not use "man is made weak" excuse to fall in error.
There arise two issues after that:
1) what are those limits, as we all believe in some limitations as to how far we can go.
For example here in the West (I live in USA, and see and know the reality), its OK to have one or multiple intimate or sexual relationships with opposite (now even same) sex without getting married, according to man made standards, which change and vary from place to place and time to time.
Islam is a devine guidance, it regulates a person's interactions with others in ways that benefits that person and the society, plus by living by them he/she fulfills God's will thus achieving the purpose of life. Thus Islam, and I am sure many Christian denominations forbid such relationships and what causes them.
2- Islam is a very natural, logical social system and a way of life, when it identifies an issues as wrong and bad, it offers a very logical solution to it, not only that, it also address the root causes and fixes it there.
We know that most of our actions start as an intention. We see something, we get idea, then we implement it.
I work in a mall, and see and observe a lot of people, all ages, races. I have seen that a 'partially dressed young lady walking by makes men, even her grandfather's age men to turn around and take a peek as what she has exposed and has to offer. If someone is dresseed more full, seem to get less attention causes less heads to turn. Now typically when a head turns and the person takes a look it starts a thought in that man's mind, "wow" look at those..... or that... or she is...., even if those words don't get to lips, they cirlce in the heart, and further imagination get things further.
God knows that nature of man, He made us, and He knows All. So God has addressed the issue and solved it by telling us how to dress so you don't arouse wrong feelings. How to interact between the opposite sexes so we don't provide seeds to unwanted ideas and actions leading to immoral fruits.
I and those of us who have experienced life here in the West know how easy it is to get what you desire because the system provides ample oppertunities. We humans are weak and have proved that if provided oppuertunity, majority of us would fall for it. So when sexes are seperated (adults) in Islam, its is for a good purpose, Islam does not overlook a real problem and nor it compromises with such a serious issue rather take the preventive measures so to root it out.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:32pm
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I thought Muslims (like Christians) believed in a "personal" God, i.e. a God with attributes similar to our own, and in whose image we were made. Not so?
I can't argue with that, but I wonder how far you would take it. Should we enjoy alcohol, even in moderation? Should we enjoy the beauty of the female body, other than that of our own wives? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:35pm
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Hi Hasan,
I do agree with you on some of these issues. In some cases, way to much liberty is taken in dress. I'm thinking though that the dress is not really the issue but the person themselves. If they were covered up they'd find other ways to attract attention.
Living in the West as you do you are aware that certain ways of modified dress are very acceptable such as shorts in the hot summer months. I don't think people pay much attention one way or another. Here if we see a woman totally covered up from head to toe, the first thing that comes to mind is not that she is being modest but what is she hiding? In that case we feel she is drawing attention to herself rather than not.
I agree there is alot of sexual freedom. I feel that is something that will have to work itself out as people mature and grow. I don't think it is as rampant as it once was. I have many gay friends. I believe it is determined at birth and not really of the person's choosing. Two of my friends have been together for twenty years and are very committed to each other. They work hard, pay taxes and contribute to their community.
The separation of sexes in the West is pretty impractical as I said in the other post. Our lives intersect at all levels. I really can't imagine just having female friends and this is the norm for us. All people in my family and group of friends have always had friends - and friends is just what is was - of the opposite sex starting from grade school.
I know there is a difference of opinion on these matters. Thank you for writing to me.
Merigen
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:46pm
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I would say that the limit is where the harms to society outweigh the benefits to the individuals. Exactly how you measure that is a difficult question, of course.
And what's wrong with that?
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:07pm
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Hi Ron,
Was this a man named Guy Mitchell's song? I remember it from my childhood. It was always done in a light-hearted manner.
Merigen
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 4:16pm
"Standing on the Corner" was written by Frank Loesser in 1956 for the Broadway musical "Most Happy Fella". The version I remember most is from the Four Lads in 1960, but lots of people sang it, maybe including Guy Mitchell. And yes, it was a charming, light-hearted song, from those halcyon days when people actually wrote and sang light-hearted songs.
For nostalgia buffs, the lyrics are here:
http://www.ripcat.free-online.co.uk/waitshtml/standingonthecornerlyrics.htm - http://www.ripcat.free-online.co.uk/waitshtml/standingonthecornerlyrics.htm ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 5:04pm
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Hi Ron,
Yes, as soon as you wrote about the 4 Lads, something clicked which was not clicking last night obviously. I think Guy Mitchell sang a song called "Never Felt More Like Singin the Blues". Of course I'm probably still confused but it is fun reminiscing. I'm the type that gets song lyrics mixed up too. I thought that Don't cry for me Argentina - you were supposed to be immortal was - you were supposed to be deported. I'm great fun at a musical
 Merigen
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 5:34pm
Merigen,
I agree with you on some things while other I would like to make a point. I don't think that anybody is trying to change how we in the West dress or behave. That is a broader debate and I don't have interest to discuss that, at this time.
I am talking about it from an Islamic perspective. Unlike the manmade standards, which are based on trial and error, and are ever changing, in an organized religion like Islam, they are devinely guided. We believe that our maker knows All, and when He gave us some rules we cannot modify them, or change them due to time, race or place. Its like a doctor's prescription given to patient, only doctor can modify it, because he knows what he prescribed and for what.
Those of us who take the oath of following that belief, fulfill that oath through pratice of what it teaches.
I see many people who pay taxes and are good citizen in the eyes of other, yet have multiple sex partners or partners without marriage, have children without marriage. It seems just fine and normal, because we have devloped and evolved into such. Even here is the West the same behavior was considered wrong and bad not too long ago. So its not that the wrong behavior now is Ok, but because we have developed it into a perfactly normal looking one. While in reality its the same, wrong, but because more are doing it so everyone is accepting of it because they themself probably has accepted it and are living it as well, so once a wrong, no longer so.
You talked about covered-up or dressed up woman getting more attention than one in the skirt.
You are right in that, but we have to see here what kind of attention we are talking about. A woman walking by with cloths that expose her form and beauty and show her body and skin catches a strange man's attention in majority of cases for what? I don't think for her intellegent mind or her language or what she does for a living rather for one: her body and beyond! Why a woman's body has this magnetic affect on men, I don't think we need to discuss that here as that's a whole new chapter. Now on the other hand, as you talked about, a woman passing by, covered head to toe grabes attention too and more so today. Is it the same attention? No, and that is the point. That woman is not giving the man the oppertunity to see her form, shape of her beautiful body and skin, covered, protected from those looks and thoughts. Beacuse she believes that the body given to her from her maker is given in a turst, and she has to care for it, nurture it, protect it as the maker commanded. She gets attention because we have spread rumors about those who dress like her as oppresed or bad people. She may not please those around her, but she endures it for the pleasure of her Maker, Who's pleasure is more important to her, even if it causes her bad looks looks and comments. To her that is less price to pay, then to displease her maker and be rejected eternally.
I hope I don't sound preachy here, as I only wanted to make clear my understanding on the issue.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 5:56pm
The reason I used quotation marks around "love" is I don't want to attribute the human definition of love to God. I try to maintain this idea that God is beyond our understanding, this means even words we find in our doctrines, even words that glorify God, God is beyond them. What I see as love maybe different for God. God might see love as a man throwing himself off a cliff to commit suicide but for us we call that a serious matter. I consciously try not to attribute anything humanly conceivable to God even if its love. I may think God loves me but I don't know because these are human restrictions on words.
Should we enjoy alcohol, even in moderation? Should we enjoy the beauty of the female body, other than that of our own wives?
This depends on the person. If you are a no-Muslim medically there is nothing wrong with drinking wine especially done in moderation as research has shown. However one has to draw the line between indulging in these behaviors and being religious. If a religion strictly prohibits drinking alcohol then the person must avoid it, otherwise to indulge is in that moment to cease being of that faith. You can't transgress religious values and call yourself religious, these are contradictions. You have to understand that there are certain values that we must abide by even if its shown in reality that these "things" won't necessarily harm us. We human don't always have to indulge our senses and its important to know that.
As far as enjoying the body of the women again the same rules apply. In reality, like alcohol, as long as the man enjoys the body for aesthetic reasons its fine. Even if he looked at the female body in a perversive way as long as he doesn't harm anyone its completely fine. If you are Muslim you are taught to "hate" what God "hates." But I ask the question: "What is hate to God?" Is it our understanding of hate or his? If its our understanding then we are only restricting the definition of values which inevitably will not make those values divine. But yeah I hope you got my point.
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 9:41pm
When society changes, (and people change all the change), and it grows then rules and some laws need to change. If things stay the same then society stagnates and does not grow. If we don't have trail and error then one does not learn. At the moment my city is trailing a 2am lockout on nightclubs to curb violence usually drunken behaviour, those who are already in the nightclubs can stay. But entry at 2am and after will not be allowed. there's a 3 month trail and the first two weekends have not gone that smoothly but on a whole it seems fine. if successful after 3 mths then it will became law except the casino will be exempt. This is an example of rules needing to change because society and people change. Now I don't want you to come back if such things were not allowed in the first place...I'm not going about that.
Now as for the dressing:
In many discussions about this in the past, the attention is and can be the same for someone who is covered up. In the west people are used to bear skin and wearing bikinis at the beach so everyone sees and is used it. It leaves NOTHING for the imagination and there's no mystery to anything either. But when one is covered it leaves something for the imagination and makes one wonder what she look likes under the clothes. Bearing all does not always give attention, men see much all day almost every day so why would they start lusting over a woman who is always in a bikini?
But going to a place where its not the norm, well of course men would lust after and fall head first in the ground because they weren't watching where they were going.
there's nothing wrong that nor showing islams view but there is a few issues that you need to know also. And everytime I will point that out  ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 7:37am
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The law on hijab has a few hikmah or wisdom behind it. Firstly for the individual (the woman), then for the family and then for the society. When a woman covers her body, she is not only doing that for the sake of Allah, but as per normal, the benefits is returned back to her. In doing so, she is respecting her own body. If you want people to respect you, you first of all have to respect yourself. She is guarding herself from the evils of Satan and Nafs (ego/lust/desire/passion). She is also at the same time protecting the man that is looking at her from sins, from rape and fornication. How? That man could be someone�s son, brother, father, husband, father-in-law, uncle or even a grandfather. And in turn men are required to lower their gaze when they have to communicate with women who is not their mahram. That woman maybe someone�s daughter, sister, mother, wife, mother-in-law, aunt or even a grandmother. Islamic law not only benefits the individual, but for the family, society and humankind in general. I would like to quote an ariticle that I read before � The role of woman is at the heart of any culture. Apart from stealing Arab oil, the impending war in the I am not an expert on the condition of Muslim women and I love feminine beauty too much to advocate the burka here. But I am defending some of the values that the burka represents for me. For me, the burka represents a woman's consecration to her husband and family. Only they see her. It affirms the privacy, exclusivity and importance of the domestic sphere. The Muslim woman's focus is her home, the "nest" where her children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training her children, providing refuge and support to her husband. In contrast, the bikinied American beauty queen struts practically naked in front of millions on TV. A feminist, she belongs to herself. In practice, paradoxically, she is public property. She belongs to no one and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is auctioning herself all of the time. http://www.savethemales.ca/180902.html - http://www.savethemales.ca/180902.html ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 7:47am
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I think we are getting side tracked ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 7:56am
 No, not at all.This topic Adeenul 'Aql i= Religion is intellect - s very wide indeed.
And we need our intellect to balance the facts that we, especially the Muslims here are, presenting.  ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 1:21pm
Angel,
I don't think you can ever get use to what is wrong. I would have believed you if the advertising companies and magazines were not using women and their bare bodies as a tool to sell.
Every week when I go to shopping in the Super Walmart, just before paying I have to go through racks on my back and front full of magazines, who's covers most of the times have one thing in common, beautiful women, almost exposed to the bottom, you tell me why, in the past 70-80 years of exposure have we really not gotten over it, or as you suggest got use to it?
Sign of a good social system is that it changes bad behavior with what is good and shapes a better society, and not the other way around.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 5:32pm
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God's capacity for love or hate may be beyond our understanding, but we have to assume that the feeling is essentially the same for Him as for us. If we can't trust the meaning of ordinary words, we might as well toss the entire Quran in the trash.
No, but we do have to listen to our own conscience and our own intellect -- or else, again, we might as well toss the Quran in the trash. How can we know that the Quran contains the truth without using our conscience and our intellect? Indeed, how can we know anything without relying on our own hearts and our own brains? That is what I mean by my signature. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 8:00pm
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Hi Hasan,
You talked about covered-up or dressed up woman getting more attention than one in the skirt.
You are right in that, but we have to see here what kind of attention we are talking about. A woman walking by with cloths that expose her form and beauty and show her body and skin catches a strange man's attention in majority of cases for what? I don't think for her intellegent mind or her language or what she does for a living rather for one: her body and beyond!
Lol! We are talking about what men perceive. Tell me - whatever woman you look at, whether covered up or not, you are thinking about her intellect just as she is strolling along?? You can't determine the intellect of a person unless you speak to them. We are all guilty of making judgements about what we see but in the end that just isn't fair.
I have to ask, if all these supposed temptations have presented themselves to you, why did you pick the US to live in anyway? That may be unfair however as you may of come here as a child.
Now on the other hand, as you talked about, a woman passing by, covered head to toe grabes attention too and more so today. Is it the same attention? No, and that is the point. That woman is not giving the man the oppertunity to see her form, shape of her beautiful body and skin, covered, protected from those looks and thoughts.
Sorry, men are going to be curious no matter what. Look at you
 - in the wording in the above - That woman is not giving the man the opportunity to see her form, shape of her beautiful body and skin...I'm just giving you a bad time. Take care and have a good weekend!
Merigen
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Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 8:02pm
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Hi Angel,
I think we are getting side tracked
Sorry, that was me!
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 9:22pm
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God's capacity for love or hate may be beyond our understanding, but we have to assume that the feeling is essentially the same for Him as for us. If we can't trust the meaning of ordinary words, we might as well toss the entire Quran in the trash.
You are mentioning 'faith' and I do have faith but I do not have faith in the meaning of 'certain' words. Saying God is love is a faith based belief based upon doctrinal beliefs about God. Although it may be true we cannot risk limiting God according to our definitions of what we think God is. Although its inevitable as humans that we attribute love and anger to God these are physical descriptions of God's 'emotion.'
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 10:43pm
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To Ron
God's capacity for love or hate may be beyond our understanding, If we cannot define the word �Love� from God, how could we define His appearance like what is being portrayed by Christianity in deifying Jesus as God? Indeed. in Islamic Tasawwuf, Love of God is -
Mahabbah (love) means fondness, tender and kind feelings, and inclination. When love affects and invades all feelings of man, it is called passion and when it gets so deep and irresistible as to burn with the desire of union, it is called fervor and enthusiasm. Love has been defined by the sufis as the relation of the heart with the Truly Beloved One or the irresistible desire felt for Him, or trying to comply with His desires or Commandments in all one�s acts and thoughts, or being enraptured and intoxicated without �sobriety� until the time of union. All these definitions can be summed up as �standing� in the Presence of God and being freed from all transient relationships and worries. Perhaps to you, it sounds alien, but this is the deeper spiritual concept of Love towards God Almighty � The Creator of the Whole Universe. As for hate, in a Hadis Qudsi, He said � My Mercy prevails over my Wrath� Allah assures us that whoever commits a sin will be forgiven if he repents and ceases this act, where He says what means: {Your Lord hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful} (Al-An`am but we have to assume that the feeling is essentially the same for Him as for us. Not at all, Our love of God is still nothing compared to His love. Most of the times, our love for Him, is for something in return, be it Jannah ( If we can't trust the meaning of ordinary words, we might as well toss the entire Quran in the trash. Even though the Bible is not a word of God, Muslims will not reach to that level of insolence as to toss the Bible into the trash. As to drinking alcohol, there are more harm than good. God Almighty in passing this law, is trying to protect the weak from the strong. Most of the times the drinker is the men, and the ones being abused are the women and children. Furthermore, alcohol destroys the brain and only st**id people indulge in this st**id act. Take this analogy, we use safety belts while driving. Why is this so? Because the advantages are more than the disadvantages. Using a seat belt is now considered a law in some countries. Indeed, how can we know anything without relying on our own hearts and our own brains? That is what I mean by my signature. God Almighty created each and everyone of us equal and fair. He created the souls with the ability to llive, see, hear, converse, will, power and knowledge. All these are in us. God AlMighty says in the Quran - By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; and its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right. (91:7-8) We showed him the right and wrong path. It is now up to him to be grateful or ungrateful. (76:3) Have We not made for him a pair of eyes? A tongue, and a pair of lips? And shown him the two paths (of good and evil)? (90: 8-10) So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith; (Establish) Allah�s handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard religion; but most among mankind understand not. (30:30) In fact, he himself is a witness upon his own self however much he may put up excuses. (75:14-15) So Ron, it is all up to us to make full use God�s gift to find the Truth. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 21 June 2008 at 10:34am
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I want to piggie back off Merigen's point for a minute.
We forget that women are creatures too. So many times we look at preventitive measures women can take but what about men? Men can walk around with their shirts off around women on the beaches and women stare. You don't even have to be half naked to get these looks. I can say in California I get this all the time. It's flattering but curious as well because both Muslim and non-Muslim reactions are the same! So my point is humans are humans it doesn't matter.
I think even in countries where women are fully covered (See: Central Asian, Middle Eastern countries) I think men rather than depend on their occipital faculties, begin to become more curious mentally which can even be worse than looking visually.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 June 2008 at 7:07pm
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I hope you're speaking only for yourself and not for Muslims in general. I think God would be offended by such a cynical and conditional form of "love". For myself, love of God is identical with love of His creation. There's no barter involved -- I just think this world is a marvelous, fascinating place, and I'm equally impressed whether it came together by sheer accident, by evolution, or under some guiding intelligence. If the Intelligent Designer ever chooses to reveal himself/themselves to me, I'll certainly express my appreciation and admiration for his/their work, with no strings attached.
Indeed, excessive consumption of alcohol does a great deal of harm. However, if "religion is intellect", my intellect tells me that moderate consumption of alcohol is not harmful and probably beneficial to most people, as numerous studies have shown:
If the Quran were to say otherwise, my intellect would consider that to be evidence that the Quran is not from God. However, I believe what the Quran actually says is that "intoxicants" are harmful, and that is true. No one should use alcohol or any other substance as an intoxicant. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 21 June 2008 at 7:54pm
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Nur,
If you sincerely wants to know more
I asked you those questions because I prefer a personal opinion.
Really I sort of feel sorry for you. You have taken so many thing of this world and discarded them as a waste of time when in reality, as Ron Webb said - they are a gift.
Have you ever played with a puppy or a dog? They are wonderful; indeed one of the most loyal and loving creatures on earth. They are the epitome of unconditional love.
Music can be moving and spiritual. If it makes you forget your zikr, perhaps you just have a short attention span.
Some great ideas have come from fiction. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Live theater and music is exciting and exhilarating. There's nothing like a live performance. You can live without ir but you may be missing something.
If you did some of the above as a youth but now you don't, what are the restrictions you've placed on your children?
Merigen
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 21 June 2008 at 10:12pm
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>>my intellect tells me that moderate consumption of alcohol is not harmful<<
This precogito is contingent upon the contributing elements e.g. research showing moderate alcohol consumption being beneficial and such.
However, I believe what the Quran actually says is that "intoxicants" are harmful, and that is true. No one should use alcohol or any other substance as an intoxicant.
Ron as smart as you are you above comment does not make "scientific sense." Alcohol is an intoxicant period. Let me say (using southern country voice) that Gud is smart. Gud knows we don't lisen, and Gud knows we don't follow all dem rules. Ya see, he made us in dem bodies of ours an enzyme called Alcohol Dehydrogenese that breaks dem intoxican-whatyamacallits down to a level where it don't hurt no budy (End southern voice).
In other words, the body responds to any intoxicants which may be harmful. If Alcohol wasn't an intoxicant the body wouldn't need to break it down to be less harmful. The thing you gotta understand Ron is that your intellect is not some conscious where you know what is good and bad and can make a rational decision. All minds including my own is conditioned based upon learned experiences. your intellect is an accumilation of thoguhts and experiences in which you make judgements based off the best condition. Read more Jean-Paul Sartre...
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 12:30am
Hi Ron,
This meaning of Love of God depends on the understanding, knowledge and experience of a person. A practising Muslim and a non-Practising Muslim�s understanding of God�s Love may vary vastly. A layman and a sheikh�s understanding differs. A student of fiqh (Islamic Jurispudence) and a student of Tasawwuf (The inwardness of Islam) also differs. Whatever it is, it depends on what perspective and how close a person is with God. Indeed, I have no doubt that there are many many non-Muslims who have a relationship with God. Indeed there can only be One God who created us and the whole universe. His love encompasses All. No one is excluded. For those who understand the deeper meaning of God�s Love, he or she will never ask for anything except His Redha (His Pleasure).
For myself, love of God is identical with love of His creation. There's no barter involved -- I just think this world is a marvelous, fascinating place, and I'm equally impressed whether it came together by sheer accident, by evolution, or under some guiding intelligence. If the Intelligent Designer ever chooses to reveal himself/themselves to me, I'll certainly express my appreciation and admiration for his/their work, with no strings attached. I agree very much with that post of yours. It is so similar to the essence of Love in Sufism. I quote here - Love is to see what is good and beautiful in everything. It is to learn from everything, to see the gifts of God and the generosity of God in everything, to see the gifts of God and the generosity of God in everything. It is to be thankful for all God's bounties. This is the first step on the road to the love of God. This is just a seed of love. In time, the seed will grow and become a tree and bear fruit. Then, whoever tastes of that fruit will know what real love is. It will be difficult for those who have tasted to tell of it to those who did not. Love is a special pleasurable pain. Whoever has this in their heart will know the secret. They will see that everything is Truth, and that everything leads to Truth. There is nothing but Truth. In the realization of that they will be overcome. They will sink into the Perhaps Ron, you do not know, that one of Allah�s attribute is Al-Haqq � THE TRUTH. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 10:42am
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Alcohol is an intoxicant only when it intoxicates. Used in moderation, it doesn't, therefore it isn't. Have you ever smelled freshly baked bread? You know what gives it that wonderful aroma, don't you? Is fresh bread an intoxicant?
The body breaks down (metabolizes) all food. That doesn't mean it is harmful or intoxicating.
If not my intellect and/or conscience, then what? How else can I recognize good or bad? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 2:06pm
| RON I'm seriously teling you that Alcohol and what its made out of (small percentage of ethanol and other contents) are intoxicants. There are specific enzymes in the body that break down alcohol....ah nevermind |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 7:36pm
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Yes I know that it can be an intoxicant; but it doesn't have to be. It also can be a great many other things, including a vasodilator (which is why it is beneficial to the heart), a solvent, a preservative, an antiseptic, a fuel, etc., depending on how it is being used. It is only an intoxicant when you drink enough to intoxicate you.
I had a glass of red wine with my dinner a few days ago, and I don't think anyone would have described me as "intoxicated" -- ergo, in that particular instance the wine was not an intoxicant. If I had drunk the entire bottle, that would have been a different story. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:13pm
It is obvious you and I have trouble defining what an intoxicant is. You are defining an intoxicant as one who is "drunk, buzzed, etc" I define intoxicant as any substance that has poisonous contents which are harmful to the body. What I'm saying is, if Alcohol was NOT an intoxicant ergo, did not have poisonous contents our Alcohol Dehydrogenese would not need to break down its content to make it less poisonous. Being "intoxicated" is only a symptom of the body's inability to not break down enough of the poisonous contents of alcohol. I'm sure when you drink "wine" on an empty stomach and get a "head trip" or being "buzzed" those are the results of that process.
So what I was saying was alcohol is an intoxicant whether its consumed in moderation or not. The only difference here is when it is consumed in moderation it is less harmful because there is less of it in the body versus a drunk who drinks an entire bottle of, let's say, Vodka.
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 5:42am
Alcohol is indeed an intoxicant. Now whether someone is intoxicated or not after drinking it, the question is, why are drunkards a big problem and nuisance? How much damage can a drunkard inflict on himself and his family? How can western society stop this problem?
In the Old Testament, drinking wine was prohibited, yet in the New Testament, Jesus was even said to turn water into wine. These inconsistencies in the Bible perhaps gave rise to the contradictions that is now apparent in Christianity. I quote this words from one of my favourite website - http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/jesus_broke_the_law.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/jesus_broke_the_law.htm
Islam, the Alcoholic drinks are the only poison that is licensed in many countries. However, Islam took a clear attitude towards alcoholic drinks more than 1400 years ago. Islam prohibits such drinks. Any drink that causes drunkenness is prohibited in Islam regardless of the matter it is made from and regardless of the quantity. According to Islam, if too much of a drink causes drunkenness, then any small quantity of this drink is prohibited, because all alcoholics start with small quantities, and then they become the slaves of alcohol. (Muhammad Ali Alkhuli, The Need For Islam, First Edition 1981, p. 7) ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:55am
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If someone is an alcoholic then that person has deeper issues, not because one starts with small amounts.
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 4:06pm
LOL I know Nur Ilahi is wasting his time and energies anyways but the Facts are:
I have no issue with the numbers but it takes our tax dollars to cleanup the mess and injuries on our loved ones -who never touched the booze- they leave behind! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 5:15pm
OK you may be having fun with Nur Ilahi but tell us is the owner Daryl Bradford Smith a Muslim? running site http://www.iamthewitness.com/ - The French Connection There is nothing Muslims are purported to believe in the facts are as clear as the day light! The Americans were good and free before the Zionist got hold of their jugular by the control of their Capital and Capitol! Which church or political leader in the western world is not polishing the Zionist den AIPAC's apples except Carter or Ron Paul or couple more? You want me to post Obama's speech for your perusal or you can find it to see what I am saying I think Nur is too nice that he is putting up with facetiousness! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 5:32pm
Yes, and thank you for phrasing that in such a neutral way. Arguing over definitions (i.e., yours versus mine) is pointless.
Instead we need to look at the word in context and use our intellect to try to understand what it means in the Quran:
We are told to eschew (avoid) intoxicants "that we may prosper". The danger of intoxicants is that they "excite enmity and hatred", and make us forget Allah and prayer.
Now, ask yourself: does a single glass of wine with a meal cause any of these things? Of course not. The Quran is clearly describing drunkenness, not moderation. A single glass of wine does not excite hatred, does not cause forgetfulness, does not lead to failure. Only excessive drinking can do that. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:00pm
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No, the question is whether the cure is worse than the disease. Most people who drink alcohol do so in moderation, and statistically are healthier and live longer as a result; and the few who abuse it are unlikely to stop anyway. We tried prohibition in the 1930s and learned that it just doesn't work.
Really? Where in the Old Testament does it prohibit wine? Again, I see plenty of prohibition of drunkenness, but nothing prohibiting wine in moderation.
 Now it's not just an intoxicant but a poison? Nur, too much water can be toxic -- does that make it a poison too? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:07pm
Thank you for those facts about drunk driving. How many of those terrible accidents do you think were caused by moderate use of alcohol?
Or maybe you were trying to prove that motor vehicles should be prohibited?  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:39pm
Legally the motor vehicle are prohibited for the guys or gals to use who have taken the number of drinks depending on their http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs72duichart.htm - weights chart! Some are impaired with one drink some may take half a dozen! that is way it is my dear friend! If you like you may request a more detailed breakdown on moderately impaired dead souls from the agency! You might like to know it is no fun riding a horse while impaired http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs72duichart.htm - ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:53pm
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Hello Sign*Reader, I checked the link you gave me. It's the usual stuff. I never wrote that these were sites hosted by Muslims in the first place. But what you said does give me license then to believe in other sites that say that Muslims want to take over the world, right? There sure are alot of them out there including many by Muslim leaders and Muslim religious spokesmen. Merigen
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:08pm
I've never tried it myself, so I'll have to take your word for it.
Anyway, it may not be fun, but it's a whole lot safer -- unless the horse is also impaired. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:19pm
Excuse my two cents: If you pay attention to the impairment chart you will think again trying to push the envelope to each it is a different level based on the body mass! When you are addicted to some thing the moderation always loses! When the boss (Allah) says it is no, it is no! This order came in two stages if you know the background --what part the NO you don't understand? Don't take me wrong there are countless nominal Muslims living in the secular mode after colonialism of the Muslim lands having a drink or the whole bottle is a non issue but then there are host of other things they have to face in their lives for which they are totally unprepared and fall flat on their faces in misery and no place to turn to! Just like a miserable western family situation is starkly evident with high divorces, adultery out of wedlock children, suicides and what have you. Why? almost everybody on my street is divorced! I heard my neighbor calling his wife b*tch and his dog girl; man that is great culture! The dog is dead and he looks lost to me And this is a Jewish family, reformed of course! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 9:12pm
I think you meant me.
And no I am not wasting my time. I stand by what I said, and I am not talking about alcohol related incidents. Nur points out that drinking small amounts you become an alcoholic (and while in a small way it may). But alcoholics have deeper issues, alcohol is one of many substances that is used to deaden feelings/issues that one does not want to deal with. (usually makes it worse really)
I don't disagree with this. some people do lose track of how many drinks they have had. And everyone is different in how they handle it. This doesn't make one an alcoholic thou.
Alcoholic is termed by someone drinking all (most of the) day everyday, and its an dependence issue. Not the occasional drink. ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 7:25am
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Hi Ron,
We are told to eschew (avoid) intoxicants "that we may prosper". The danger of intoxicants is that they "excite enmity and hatred", and make us forget Allah and prayer.
You forgot the continuation - will ye not then abstain?
Now, ask yourself: does a single glass of wine with a meal cause any of these things? Of course not. The Quran is clearly describing drunkenness, not moderation. A single glass of wine does not excite hatred, does not cause forgetfulness, does not lead to failure. Only excessive drinking can do that.
People are not all the same Ron. Some people just with a small drink of this poisonous drink, will feel the effect. While some people will take more. Again the question is, how much advantages has this drink compared to the disadvantages of it? Can't people live without alcohol? Must enjoyment always include drinking?
Perhaps you have not seen the weak - women and children being abused by this drinking habit. If you were one of the victim, or had seen one, then you may change your mind.
A single glass of wine does not excite hatred, does not cause forgetfulness, does not lead to failure. Alcoholic drink is just not a glass of wine. How many of you who drink this poisonous drink will stop at one glass only? Most probably, when it is a free flow party, the inclination to drink more is there. It all started with a single drink. Alcohol has many uses. However it is not to be consumed internally. God should know! He created this substance. Hence His law for complete abstinence.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 7:21pm
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No, I didn't forget. I abstain from drunkenness, which is what the passage is quite clearly describing.
Yes, I know that. Do you? Those people who cannot stop at a single drink should not have any at all; but I am not one of them.
Well, for me the advantage is an estimated 3.8 years extra lifespan, according to http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3045758 - one study . Disadvantages? None at all. I make my own wine for the most part, so it's not even expensive.
And if I never had another glass of wine in my life, how exactly would that help these victims?
Please explain to me why you keep calling it "poisonous". What kind of "poison" is it that adds almost four years to my lifespan? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:12pm
| Ron you seem not have any obvious scientific sense on the contents of alcohol do you? Alcohol even consumed in moderation does not add to your lifespan it is what the body does in reaction to moderate consumption is what adds to the lifespan. Also, I would go back and refute your statement but quite honestly explaining the enzyme Alcohol dehydrogenes to you is pointless. If you're a winemaker mayeb you should school yourself on human anatomy and reaction to alcoholic beverages. Clearly ALL alcohol has intoxicant contents in it that the body breaks down so it is less poisonous. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 5:40am
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I am borrowing sign*reader's signature.
When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest!
Tks Sign*reader. I like it very much.
---------------------
Ron, disadvantages are many of course. We had already listed down in our previous posts above.
I remember when I was small, when electricity was scarce, my father used a kerosene lamp and that kerosene lamp needed alcohol to burn that special bulb. When that alcohol got lighted with a match, it caught fire. Imagine drinking this fiery spirit.
God Almighty gave us 'aql to think. How could a substance that can burn your skin, good or healthy if consumed internally?
I believe that some of the verses in the Bible were from God, some from the prophets and the bulk were written by historians.
So I will quote the verses that I believe were either originated from God or the Prophet in regards to drinking wine.
9. Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (Leviticus 10:9)
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)
For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. (Proverbs 4: 17)
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (Isaiah 28:7)
I do believe in the gists of these verses as Moses and Jesus were prophets of God Almighty. Alcohol at the time of Moses and Jesus is still the same alcohol as it is today. So Ron, why Christians contradicts the teaching of Moses and Jesus?------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 4:43pm
You're splitting hairs, and for no purpose. The same could be said about food, or exercise, or just about anything else that keeps us healthy.
We can agree on that, anyway. It would be pointless, because the specific enzyme(s) involved are irrelevant.
Also irrelevant. As I said, the body breaks down all food. That doesn't make it poisonous. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 5:10pm
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Yes, I'd definitely advise against drinking alcohol while it is on fire.
None of those verses forbid drinking wine. Leviticus 10:9 forbids drinking it in the tabernacle (which seems to prohibit Communion until you consider the doctrine of transubstantiation). Proverbs 20:1 warns that it is unwise (but not necessarily a sin) to allow oneself to be "deceived" by wine, i.e., allow one's judgement to be impaired via intoxication. Proverbs 4:17 (really scraping the bottom of the barrel!) is obviously a metaphor, unless you want to believe that bread is also condemned as "wickedness". And Isaiah 28:7 refers to those who are "swallowed up" in wine, who err in vision (double-vision?) and "stumble" in judgement -- again, obvious references to intoxication, not wine per se. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 6:50pm
Ron,
I am a Muslim, I think each one of us follow our own underestanding of our belief, and has a right to do so. The purpose is there, to please the One who knows what is in the heart.
Now, I too use to listen to music and watch movies before coming to the West. And now that I live here in the West, I avoid music, and by that I mean anything that negativate my belief.
I do not beleive that Islam tells us not to entertain ourselves or not to do music. It tells us to avoid Haram things. For example most of the music made and sold may have haram subjects or acts repeated in it. Just like a Muslim is to feed his stomach only what is Halal, same way a Muslim is to feed his eyes and ears with what is Halal, because he will be asked of it in the End.
I am running out of time, and will be back for more on this.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:59pm
The thread started with ta�qilun and tafakkarun and it is to point of just a humor at this stage! Ron: If a serving of wine with your meal is holding you down to see the light, I think we can work some thing out! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 10:24pm
| Ron, there are specific enzymes that break down certain contents. Just because our digestive system has an acidic natures does not mean i breaks down "everything" learn more science. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 6:28am
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Ron,
they an no more determine that drinking wine makes you live life longer and healthier.. There is no real proof of that.. its like does eating grapes or the fruit make you healthier. I study alot about health and nutrition and their is no "one thing" that makes you live longer or healier. For they've never done a long term study comparing diets.. or drinking alcohol vs. just eating the fruit it comes from. The news can "report" this stuff and some never turns out to be true.. like you should drink 8 glasses of water.. thay myth started and its hard to stop it!
My brother is an alcholic, my brother-in-law is an alcoholic. My uncle is an alcholic. And you know.. I wish we lived in a dry country. And they do exist, where alcohol is quite limited.
Why do people drink at all? To "relax" "Dull their sense" and the greater issue is why do people need to do that.. why is that the only method they can do. And you do it to change the way your brain is working.
Alcohol is a depressent. It impairs judgement. Even one drink can change your judgement, especially your moral judgement.
Even before I became a Muslim I detested alchohol. The reason why is that it changes people. Even when the person is not a heavy drinker.
There is a high correlation rate of domestic violence and alcohol. They are two seprate issues but in one study according to Dept of Justice Alcohol does not cause domestic abuse but certainly does not benefit.
Alcohol and drug use. Victims and family members reported that 92 percent of assailants used drugs or alcohol during the day of the assault.we are asked to abstain, why? Because who knows who is suspetible to alcoholism. Who can not only handle it, but who can handle the stresses in their lives and won't turn to booze as a crutch? Then you can add: Between 18% and 66% of suicide victims have alcohol in their blood at the time of death (Roizen 1988; Welte et al. 1988, Collier et al. 1986, Berkelman et al. 1985).------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 12:31pm
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Hayfa thanks for adding that. Essentially I was leaning towards that, and of course there are a lot of variables to a longer life such as diet, exercise, taking suppliments. We talk about moderation but what is "light moderation?" According to the AHA (American Heart Association) a light moderation consumption of alcohol is an equivalent to 1/1.5oz of alcohol (published in January, 2001 in the journal Circulation).
Like I said before there are specific enzymes that break down certain foods and drinks. For example amylase � breaks down carbohydrates, lactase � breaks down lactose (milk sugars), glucoamylase � breaks down starch to glucose.
As I was trying to explain to Ron, essentially, alcohol is broekn down by Alcohol dehydrogenese. Alchol is essentially poisonous regadless how its made. Of course it doesn't become extremely toxic until its heavily consumed, BUT like any other foods the body breaks certain items down so that there remains a balance in the system. what is so fascinating about the digestive system is that these products that are broken down become less hazardous so that they may assimilate properly in the digestive system.
There is a high correlation rate of domestic violence and alcohol. They are two seprate issues but in one study according to Dept of Justice Alcohol does not cause domestic abuse but certainly does not benefit.
This is true and going into the Police Academy they of course explained this to us, but being a rebel I like to look at other variables that contribute to domestic abuse although alcohol is a correlate, I don't think ALL research supports this. Psychologist use other extraneous variables such as demographics, comorbidity etc. I doubt 1/1.5oz cup of alcohol will make someone violent unless there is something mixed in the drink. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 9:20pm
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There is far more proof for the health benefits of alcohol than for the proposition that God has forbidden it.
That may be true for your family, but not for mine and certainly not for me. I drink wine mainly to lower my cholesterol. I didn't even especially like it at first, though I've acquired a taste for it. I do enjoy liqueurs, though. Alcohol is a solvent for many flavours that do not dissolve readily in water. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 1:59am
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Adeenul 'Aql - Religion is Intellect.
So now let us get back to our Intellect, Does Alcohol gives more good than harm?
Who is it that are always becoming the victims of alcoholics? The answer is women and children.
The law of Islam always protects the weak from the strong. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 6:47am
That's false, except for children, women can be and some are alcoholics.
Your q & a implies that men are the only ones to be alcoholics. As for children if they are older ones perhaps in their teens can also be alcoholics.
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 7:00am
Ron, I don't think its alcohol in general but for the glass of red wine mostly for the health benefits.
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 8:46am
You're assuming that the answer to that question is obvious, but I wouldn't count on it:
The more important error you're making is what logicians call "false dichotomy". You're assuming our only choice is between total abstinence and rampant abuse, but we have a whole range of options in between. What about targetting those who abuse alcohol? We could do a much better job preventing overserving in bars, banning repeat offenders from purchasing or consuming liquor, making public drunkenness a crime again (I think it still technically is, but it's rarely enforced), and so on. We could also do better at changing society's tolerance of alcohol abuse, much as we are doing with tobacco. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: gokitty
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 10:22am
I fail to see how scientific research can lend credance to either side of this discussion.
Health Alcohol benefits debunked
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/377381.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/377381.stm |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 12:05pm
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Well journals such as the one Ron just posted is good especially when referring to the comparison of moderate to abusive drinkers. However, as wwas mentioned earlier there are variables that contibute to alcohol's ability to "save lives." Perhaps moderate drinkers cognitive ability is less impaired than abusive, quite obviously. But of course in California Law V.C. (Vehicle Code) Section 23152 pursuant to the Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1986 (49 U.S.C. Sec. 2701 et seq.) Even if a person had one drink depending on the time you consumed it til when you drove you will be arrested and cited for DUI if found that you have any alcohol/drugs. As police officers will say "Buzzed driving is drunk driving." Remember some researcher say light moderate drinking is 1/1.5oz a far cry from your average 16-21oz drinks offered at resturants and bars.
Essentially I think Ron has a point, there really is no dichotomy when it comes to drinking, but contingent upon the behavior of the person.
I do think the medical benefits of alcohol have been oversimplified here, and have not taken into consideration diet, lifestyle, exercise etc.
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Posted By: gokitty
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 9:52pm
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I think every person has their own scale of how much good outweighs the bad and vice versa, on this topic as well as others. I can agree that responsible drinking could be safe, even beneficial. In the same regard, it�s not hard to understand the point of view from the Qur'an, just as it�s not hard to understand someone whose life has been affected negatively by alcohol and might also feel that the good does not outweigh the bad. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 2:04pm
Alchohol may have its benefits, such as the medical ones, like Allah says so Himself, but its disadvantages outwiegh the good. Which is why drinking Alcohol if forbidden.
There is also no such thing as "responsible drinking" , just like there is no such thing as responsible drug-use, responsible speeding etc. When any activity's possible risks are so magnified and far-reaching, indulging in it is no longer safe/responsible, no matter how seemingly insignificant the amount.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 4:29pm
Which is why I keep my level of consumption well below the point where the risks outweigh the benefits. And of course there is such a level. As a matter of fact, I am sipping a glass of white wine (about six ounces, with my dinner) as I write this. It's nonsense to claim that this is a risk to anybody.
On the other hand, the last time I had my cholesterol checked, it was lower than it has ever been since I started measuring it decades ago. I'm certainly not suggesting that alcohol is the only factor or even the most important one, but there is no doubt in my mind that it helps. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 5:32pm
With most alcohol use, the drinker does not have the ability to self regulate because alcohol impairs your judgement.
My 15 year old niece was killed by a drunk driver who thought he could control himself and his car. He walked away, she took almost 30 minutes to die, most of the time awake and in horrible pain waiting for an ambulance. They were on a highway in Michigan far from any town. She knew she was dying and kept asking for her mommy, my sister, who didn't get there in time and had to hear the horrible story from the police.
I see no medical benefits in drinking that cannot be achieved through other means, and I see no reason for drinking alcohol, period. I have no patience for drinkers and personally believe that anyone who drinks any amount of alcohol and drives is the same as someone who randomly fires a gun in public and should be prosecuted with the same fervor. I think if you kill someone will driving drunk you should be put to death. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 6:26pm
How much experience do you actually have with moderate alcohol use? Virtually all of my friends and family drink alcohol at least occasionally, and I have never seen any of them significantly impaired.
Edited to add: On reflection, I can think of two friends who many years ago would on occasion drink more than I thought was appropriate; and one of them actually had his driver's license suspended for being over the legal limit. Both of them smartened up long ago. One has stopped drinking alcohol entirely, and the other now limits himself to a couple of drinks on social occasions. Both of them proved themselves perfectly capable of "self-regulating" once they realized the need to do so.
I'm sorry about your niece, and I agree totally about drunk driving. For what it's worth, if I expect to be driving any time soon after dinner, I skip the wine.
But frankly, I fail to see how my abstaining would have helped your niece; and I'm not going to sacrifice several years of my life expectancy, as determined by a great many reputable scientific studies, just because you fail to see the benefit. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 10:41am
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Recent studies have suggested that red and purple grape juices may provide the same heart-healthy benefits of red wine, including:
Both red wine and grape juice also contain antioxidants called flavonoids, which have been shown to increase your high-density lipoprotein (HDL, or "good") cholesterol and lower your risk of clogged arteries (atherosclerosis), and may help lower blood pressure. These findings on grape juice are good news for people who want the cardiovascular benefits of red wine without the alcohol. http://www.mayoclinic.com - www.mayoclinic.com------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 10:48am
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1. Amount of alcohol drunk: Generally small amounts of alcohol [Blood Alcohol Concentrations (BAC) = 0.03 � 0.12%] produce lowered inhibitions, feelings of relaxation, more self confidence, diminished judgement, reduced attention span, and slight incoordination. BAC�s of 0.09 to 0.25% induce more incoordination, slower reaction times, loss of balance, blurred vision, exaggerated motions, difficulty in remembering. Higher BACs to 0.3% result in confusion, dizziness, slurred speech, severe intoxication, alterations in mood including withdrawal, aggression, or increased affection, and diminished ability to feel pain. Even higher BACs, to 0.4%, can result in stupor, being incapacitated, having loss of feeling,, being difficult to arouse, and lapses in and out of consciousness. Finally, as the blood level approaches 0.50% the person may die due to a variety of physiological complications such as diminished reflexes, slower heart rate, lower respiration, and decreased body temperature. I  ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 11:00am
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"In 2006, an estimated 17,602 people died in alcohol-related traffic crashes�an average of one every 30 minutes. These deaths constitute 41 percent of the 42,642 total traffic fatalities. Of these, an estimated 13,470 involved a driver with an illegal BAC (.08 or greater). On average someone is killed by a drunk driver every 39 minutes. [ref.]"
http://www.MADD.org - www.MADD.org
This link leads to a BAC calculator which is very informative. Scientific studies have definitively shown that alcohol impairment begins with the first sip of any alcohol. The whole point of impairment is that you may think you are in control, but your judgement is impaired, no matter how small the amount you drink.
http://www.ou.edu/oupd/bac.htm - http://www.ou.edu/oupd/bac.htm ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 4:37pm
The exact link to the article is here: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-and-nutrition/AN00576 - http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-and-nutrition/AN00576
The article expresses the opinion of Martha Grogan, which I'm sure is shared by a number of other researchers; and it's true that red wine seems to have other beneficial constituents besides just alcohol. However, the consensus opinion expressed by the Mayo Clinic, like that of most experts, is that at least part of the benefit comes from the alcohol itself:
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 4:53pm
Okay, I'll bite. Which scientific studies are those? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 1:20am
Health is just an excuse people use to justify thier consumption of alcohol. By far the most used, excuse for legalising Alcohol (as well as 'my human right ' to screw up my life if I wish)
There are NUMEROUS alternatives to a healthy heart, cholestrol etc. [ Btw, if a Doc reccommends Alcohol for health issues, (such as in medicine) and have no other cure/alternatives, and the person's life/health is in immediate danger - then Islam makes it permissable for that particular circumstance.]
Dark Chocolate is said to have a good effect on the heart & cholestrol as well. . . As do NUMEROUS OTHER THINGS/FOODS.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 8:43pm
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The health benefits of alcohol are in addition to other foods and healthy lifestyle choices, not alternatives to them. I don't need an excuse to take advantage of the health benefits of alcohol. On the contrary, you need an excuse to deprive me of them. So far I haven't heard a valid one.
By the way, did you know that chocolate was originally used as an intoxicant by the South American Indians? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 1:17am
Any and every edible thing can be turned into an intoxicant in some way . . . Ppl make wine out of pottatoes, rotten veggies, what not! Which is why Allah forbade the intoxicant form - and not the ingredient. Thus grapes are Halal i.e. permissable, but wine is not. Similary, Poppy Seeds are fine, but Opium is not.
As for your statement that Islam/ppl like me just needs an excuse to deprive you of Alcohol . . . that is untrue. Because as a non-muslim Islam does not believe in enforcing its opinions on you. Which is why, even in the Shariah, there is no punishment for drinking on Non-Muslims. . . but is on Muslims.
And nobody here is trying to force you to stop taking your medically benefical hence life-extending sip of wine. . .we are simply refuting ur argument tht drinking can be responsible/is harmless/ is beneficial. Thats all. . . Just because I do something wrong, does not mean I will defend it by saying its good. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 3:39am
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Back to the thread topic - Adeenul 'Aql - Religion is intellect.
In Christianity children who are not baptised will end up in hell. Is that true?
What a pity, beautiful and cute babies, without any faults and sinless end up in hell.
My intellect refuse to accept this. How could these innocents be thrown to hell for something that they have no choice at all? ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 6:50am
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But Nur, some leaders of some churches have altered this stance as you are right it would be illogical. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Merigen
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 9:29am
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In Christianity children who are not baptised will end up in hell. Is that true?
There are many Christian denominations and they usually have a little different viewing of baptism from one another. Some churhces will only baptize people as adults. I have never heard of what you posted. I would guess that you found the most extreme and provocative and presented that. Read more. Exercise your intellect.
Merigen
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 7:34pm
I didn't mean that it could be turned into an intoxicant. I meant that in its original form it was considered an intoxicant:
(No, I'm not seriously suggesting that they were right. I just thought it was funny that you chose chocolate as your example.
)
I haven't seen anything yet that refutes my argument. You've certainly shown that drinking can be irresponsible and harmful if indulged to intoxication; but no one has yet offered anything to show that moderate drinking is irresponsible or harmful. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |