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Some believe Jesus uses Tu Quoque

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Topic: Some believe Jesus uses Tu Quoque
Posted By: believer
Subject: Some believe Jesus uses Tu Quoque
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 5:46am
Hello. Believer
 
I wrote the following on another site and append it below for your reading pleasure. We must remember that Jesus used Tu Quoque and never gave a straight answer to anything. We find him doing that very often. There was nothing bad in doing that. He used to irritate his adversaries. Please enjoy the following. Hope you like it. It is no use quoting a few verses. I prefer reading an entire section.
 
Let us look at the following from Matthew 15. This is an important passage written but extremely misinterpreted by Christians and allows them to eat anything, thus breaking the Law of food permitted, which in turn, meant disobeying the Law of God Almighty.

Quote:
Matthew 15

1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus (B)from Jerusalem and said,

2"Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

3And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

4"For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'

5"But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"

6he is not to honor his father or his mother[a].' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

7"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

10After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, "Hear and understand.

11"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

12Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"

13But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

14"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

The Heart of Man
15Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us."
16Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?

17"Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?

18"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.

19"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

20"These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."


The question asked by the Pharisees was: "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

That was the question and finally, the answer was "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

In other words, Jesus said it was okay to eat with unwashed or dirty hands.

Did the Pharisees ask,"Is everything lawful for your disciples/followers to eat? No such question was asked. The question had nothing to do with getting permission to eat non-kosher or haram food or unlawful food.

Jesus' message was to talk properly, kindly, nicely and politely as harsh and dirty words coming out of the mouth of a person, could be filthier than the food that was eliminated.

Even Peter could not understand. And what happened after that? All food became lawful. Instead of an iota, an entire "I" of the Law was changed due to overzealous reporting by the gospel writer and the misinterpretation . Rolling%20Eyes

Let us also take a look at this, which the disciples, Paul and other founders of Christianity forgot to remember. I have made the fonts to appear in dark blue:


7"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

Isaiah's prophecy came true through the lips of Jesus, when various doctrines such as trinity, hypostatic union and incarnation came up through the percepts of men. Did they not?


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



Replies:
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 6:19am

I wrote that, believer.

Any comments?

BMZ



-------------
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 6:32am
Yes, Jesus' message is very straight forward.
 
19"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

20"These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
 
Food laws were very important, protecting the health of GOD's people- before the knowledge of food borne diseases.
 
You point out another prophecy from the Holy Bible that has come true.  Yes there are many that believe facing a certain way when they pray, wearing a certain clothing, praying a certain numbers of times a day,  celebrating certain rituals, etc. is a true worship of GOD.


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 11:52am
Hi,
yet strange enough that Jesus is quoted in the NT to have done some fo the very things mentioned above as bad.
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 6:12am
Not sure what you mean - which ones are troubling you?

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 11:04am
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Not sure what you mean - which ones are troubling you?
 
Hi believer,
here is one:

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters�yes, even his own life�he cannot be my disciple

Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 6:34am
If you read the whole section you will see Jesus is discussing the expense and perils of following your religion.  This is even true for the Muslim. 
 
You can not love your family so much that you do not follow GOD.  GOD must come first in your life.
 
Luke 14
The Cost of Being a Disciple
 25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters�yes, even his own life�he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

 28"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'

 31"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.



-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 5:50pm
believer,
I meant to show the opposing nature of Jesus portrayed in the Bible, i.e.,
Love your brother
vs
Hate your brother
 
Hasan


-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 7:34am
OK.  Is there another that you questioned?

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 May 2008 at 4:40pm
believer,
is one not enough, and I think its a big one. I am sure there are more, as I read through and find I will post. but what about the one I quoted?
Hasan


-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 May 2008 at 5:54pm
My previous post explains it.  Sorry you do not understand.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 9:49am
believer,
I do understand, that for a true believer, serving God comes first and yes as a Muslim my understanding is that you cannot serve two master, one God and the other Material. Thus it is said that when your only perpose is to please your Creator, you must sacrifice your desires for material things that can take you away from serving your Creator.
 
I must add however, that in Islam pleasing God is two part.
1) Rights and duties toward God
2) Rights and duties toward the Rest (fellow humans, animals, environement and your surroundings etc.
 
In Islam we can please God by taking care of ourself, our parents, family, others, poor, the needy. Even by making money, halal way and being able to help ourself and others with that by giving as God commands. And I understand as a Christian you personally believe the same way.
 
The issue I see with those Biblical quotes is that they don't seem to co-ordinate, and hint toward its iffy nature. How the same person, and not an ordinary person, guided by the devine would be able to say:
Love your brother, father, mother, and your neighbor would come around to say:
Hate your mother, father, brother.........
 
That just say it all.
 
Hasan


-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 12:21pm
Jesus obviously didn't literally mean "hate" your family.  It is a poor choice of words and probably a bad translation from the original Aramaic.
 
The New Living Translation renders it as: "If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison�your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters�yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple." ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2014:26;&version=51 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2014:26;&version=51 ;)
 
The Contemporary English Version is less literal and expresses the intention even better: "You cannot be my disciple, unless you love me more than you love your father and mother, your wife and children, and your brothers and sisters. You cannot come with me unless you love me more than you love your own life." ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2014:26;&version=46 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2014:26;&version=46 ;)


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 4:07pm
Ron,
you are right its the bad trasnlation, because I believe no man of God will teach hate toward others, towards parents in particular. For those who insist that the Bible is litral word of God may take it word for word mainly because no access to the originals and the variations on the differet versions are mainly on denominational lines so one may not honor the words of the other version.
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 6:25pm
"You point out another prophecy from the Holy Bible that has come true.  Yes there are many that believe facing a certain way when they pray, wearing a certain clothing, praying a certain numbers of times a day,  celebrating certain rituals, etc. is a true worship of GOD."
 
Yes, I could see how these could be troubling. Especially since the dress codes set forth in the Bible are generally no longer practiced. What ever happened to women covering their hair or having their heads shorn in shame? (I Corinthians 11:2-16) Celebrating rituals like Christmas, Easter, etc, with their Pagan origins, praying only on Sundays or Christmas instead of constant remembrance of God. Praying towards altars, crucifixes, statues of Jesus and Mary, the sky, etc...


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 11:33am
1 Corinthians 11
 
6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
 
LOL!  Shasta Muslims HAVE to pray towards Kaaba.  Christians do not have to pray towards alters, or statues of Jesus and Mary.  We don't have statues of Jesus and Mary in my church.
 
LOL!!  Shasta you are a hoot!!  Muslims do  not recognize that Islam carries on many pagan rituals.  Christians understand that many celebration ideas were "borrowed" but changed the meaning to Christian.
 
Prior to the time of Constantine's "conversion," Christians were persecuted not so much for their profession of faith in Christ, but because they would not include pagan deities in their faith as well. Then, with Constantine's emphasis on making his new-found Christianity palatable to the heathen in the Empire, the "Christianization" of these pagan deities was facilitated. For example, pagan rituals and idols gradually took on Christian meanings and names and were incorporated into "Christian" worship (e.g., "saints" replaced the cult of pagan gods in both worship and as patrons of cities; mother/son statues were renamed Mary and Jesus; etc.), and pagan holidays were reclassified as Christian holy days (e.g., the Roman Lupercalia and the feast of purification of Isis became the Feast of the Nativity; the Saturnalia celebrations were replaced by http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/xmas/ - Christmas celebrations; an ancient festival of the dead was replaced by All Souls Day, rededicated to Christian heroes [now http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/hallow/ - Hallowe'en ]; etc.). A transition had occurred -- instead of being persecuted for failure to worship pagan deities, Christians who did not agree with the particular orthodoxy backed by the Emperor were now persecuted in the name of Christ! "Christianized" Rome had become the legitimate successor of pagan Rome! This is the sad origin of the Roman Catholic Church.


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 7:00am
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

LOL!  Shasta Muslims HAVE to pray towards Kaaba.  Christians do not have to pray towards alters, or statues of Jesus and Mary.  We don't have statues of Jesus and Mary in my church.
 
 
Do you have a cross?
 
Excerpt from the The Road to Mecca:
 
�One day I asked a hajji, who understood a little English: �Do you really believe that God expects you to show Him your respect by repeated bowing and kneeling and prostration? Might it not be better only to look into oneself and to pray to Him in the stillness of one�s heart? Why all these movements of your body?� As soon as I had uttered these words I felt remorse, for I had not intended to injure the old man�s religious feelings. But the hajji did not appear in the least offended. He smiled with his toothless mouth and replied:

�How else then should we worship God? Did He not create both, soul and body, together? And this being so, should man not pray with his body as well as his soul? Listen, I will tell you why we Muslims pray as we pray. We turn toward the Kaaba, God�s holy temple in Mecca, knowing that the faces of all Muslims, wherever they may be, are turned to it in prayer, and that we are like one body, with Him as the centre of our thoughts.

First we stand upright and recite from the Holy Koran, remembering that it is His Word, given to man that he may be upright and steadfast in life. Then we say, God is the Greatest, reminding ourselves that no one deserves to be worshipped but Him; and bow down deep because we honour Him above all, and praise His power and glory.

Thereafter we prostrate ourselves on our foreheads because we feel that we are but dust and nothingness before Him, and that He is our Creator and Sustainer on high.Then we lift our faces from the ground and remain sitting, praying that He forgive us our sins and bestow His grace upon us, and guide us aright, and give us health and sustenance. Then we again prostrate ourselves on the ground and touch the dust with our foreheads before the might and the glory of the One.

After that, we remain sitting and pray that He bless the Prophet Muhammad who brought His message to us, just as He blessed the earlier Prophets; and that He bless us as well, and all those who follow the right guidance; we ask Him to give us of the good of this world and of the good of the world to come. In the end we turn our heads to the right and to the left, saying, Peace and grace of God be upon you and thus greet all who are righteous, wherever they may be.

It was thus that our Prophet used to pray and taught his followers to pray for all times, so that they might willingly surrender themselves to God which is what Islam means and so be at peace with Him and with their own destiny.



-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 7:09am
"LOL!!  Shasta you are a hoot!!  Muslims do  not recognize that Islam carries on many pagan rituals.  Christians understand that many celebration ideas were "borrowed" but changed the meaning to Christian."
 
Borrowing is a loose term. So, you don't celebrate any of these holidays?


-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 10:10am
believer,
remember that even pagans were once guided and may have believed as we do, mixing with what God taught vs what they added. God did guide people since Adam's time as we commonly agree.
It is/was their own actions that turn some to acts as what we call pagan acts and rituals.
Worshipping in different ways is not wrong, Worshipping anything other than God is.
The rituals of how you worship God can be discussed, learned and corrected but does not matter how devotely you worship those other than God, its of no use. 
Throughout the Bible, the prophets are quoted to have prayed in the same manner as we the believers do today in Islam, only it was never carried on by its followers. Worship and Prayer (Salath) in Islam is the most comprehensive and the most beautiful service one can offer to his Creator without over and under doing. It was the practice of all the prophets as God must have taught them as well but like many other things, it was forgotten by them.
 
Shasta's Aunt those excerpts are beautiful.
 
believer, I am not good at putting words together but by God if there is anything we can offer to God that is from ourself is to offer Salath and other form of Worship to Him, everything else is given to us by him, thus is not ours. And you cannot give what is not yours!
Out of the Worship, most beautiful for me to offer to God is my Salath, and in Salath the Sajdah, when I lower and touch my temple (forehead) to the ground and exalt my Creator by repeating, " all praise is for the Lord Most High" For me it eliminates any confusions or misunderstanings between who am I in my relation to God, the Creator and Sustainer of All, only a humble servant, who always depend on Him and always need and seek His Mercy.
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 3:49pm
A humble servant, is good. 
 
Do you feel that because Muslims perform certain rituals they are more humble?
 
Throwing stones at the pillars of satan- Is that in the Quran?


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 8:41pm
"Do you feel that because Muslims perform certain rituals they are more humble?"
 
I think that performing certain rituals such as praying at minimum five times daily allows the act of prayer to become so ingrained in your life that you are in a constant state of remembrance of God.
 
It isn't the act of performing the ritual that makes you humble, it is the meaning of the ritual and your intention in performing it that humbles you.  


-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt



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